1 00:00:04,110 --> 00:00:06,600 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview, I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,389 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. There's been so much talk this year about house 3 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:12,959 Sean Aylmer: prices as they drop back following the pandemic era boom. 4 00:00:13,170 --> 00:00:15,570 Sean Aylmer: Today I wanted to have a closer look what this 5 00:00:15,570 --> 00:00:19,020 Sean Aylmer: means now for investors in residential properties, when we'll start 6 00:00:19,020 --> 00:00:21,060 Sean Aylmer: to see them returning to the market, and where the 7 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:25,439 Sean Aylmer: opportunities might be around the country. ASX listed HALO Technologies 8 00:00:25,470 --> 00:00:29,220 Sean Aylmer: is a global equities research and trade software platform, it's 9 00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:32,490 Sean Aylmer: now launched HALO Property. HALO Property is being headed up 10 00:00:32,490 --> 00:00:36,479 Sean Aylmer: by Warren Hogan, former chief economist at ANZ. Warren, welcome 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:37,230 Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:37,710 --> 00:00:39,060 Warren Hogan: Thanks for having me on the show, Sean. 13 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:43,739 Sean Aylmer: You've had plenty of experience in forecasting the economy and 14 00:00:43,860 --> 00:00:48,600 Sean Aylmer: markets. So the $ 64 question, what's the property market going 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:49,470 Sean Aylmer: to do next year? 16 00:00:50,310 --> 00:00:53,250 Warren Hogan: Well, unfortunately, I don't think there's much good news, at 17 00:00:53,250 --> 00:00:55,110 Warren Hogan: least not in the first half of the year. I 18 00:00:55,110 --> 00:00:58,650 Warren Hogan: think we're going to continue to see prices slide, even 19 00:00:58,650 --> 00:01:02,790 Warren Hogan: if the RBA stopped raising interest rates in 2022, it's 20 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:07,680 Warren Hogan: illiquid high transactions cost market, and the current level of 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,020 Warren Hogan: the mortgage rate at the end of 2022 will probably 22 00:01:10,020 --> 00:01:13,530 Warren Hogan: still need to be factored into the prices into the 23 00:01:13,530 --> 00:01:15,600 Warren Hogan: first few months of next year. So we'll probably still 24 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Warren Hogan: see falls end, and I actually don't think the RBA 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,370 Warren Hogan: will stop raising. So yeah, a tough start to the 26 00:01:20,370 --> 00:01:22,230 Warren Hogan: year, but there is no such thing as the Australian 27 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:24,750 Warren Hogan: property market, that's just more of a fascination for us 28 00:01:24,750 --> 00:01:27,690 Warren Hogan: economists. There's lots of different markets and some are going 29 00:01:27,690 --> 00:01:31,050 Warren Hogan: to be a lot more difficult than others, and there 30 00:01:31,050 --> 00:01:33,690 Warren Hogan: is even some markets in Australia that represent some value. 31 00:01:34,350 --> 00:01:36,959 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so I want to get into HALO itself in 32 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,990 Sean Aylmer: a moment, but while we're going down this particular rabbit 33 00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:43,800 Sean Aylmer: hole, everyone wants to hear about it. So where is 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,030 Sean Aylmer: their value within the market? 35 00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:51,840 Warren Hogan: Yeah, so we use fundamental valuation techniques based on household 36 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,770 Warren Hogan: income and then use interest rates for the cycle. And 37 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,560 Warren Hogan: from an income, we use a long- term income anchor, 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,720 Warren Hogan: both at the national and then at the state level. 39 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:05,220 Warren Hogan: And really, this boom has been an eastern seaboard boom. 40 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,630 Warren Hogan: So across WA, both in Perth and in the regions, 41 00:02:09,630 --> 00:02:12,060 Warren Hogan: as well as Northern Territory, which I know is a very 42 00:02:12,060 --> 00:02:14,970 Warren Hogan: small market, but those markets, they went up in the 43 00:02:14,970 --> 00:02:18,570 Warren Hogan: pandemic, but nothing like the east coast markets. And they 44 00:02:19,110 --> 00:02:21,750 Warren Hogan: had a poor decade prior to the pandemic as well, 45 00:02:21,750 --> 00:02:24,930 Warren Hogan: where they really struggled, this hangover from the mining boom 46 00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:28,590 Warren Hogan: era. So those markets actually are at fair value. So 47 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:33,120 Warren Hogan: I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it, particularly an owner- occupier 48 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,060 Warren Hogan: or an investor with a longtime horizon, to be looking 49 00:02:36,060 --> 00:02:38,880 Warren Hogan: at those markets now. And then in the east coast, 50 00:02:39,750 --> 00:02:43,919 Warren Hogan: there's some pockets. Apartments are getting close to only being 51 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,950 Warren Hogan: a little bit expensive in the major capital cities, particularly 52 00:02:46,950 --> 00:02:51,330 Warren Hogan: Brisbane, that also struggled pre- pandemic. But most of the 53 00:02:51,330 --> 00:02:52,530 Warren Hogan: east coast is pretty expensive. 54 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,570 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so when... I mean, apartments, they didn't run up as hard 55 00:02:57,810 --> 00:03:02,190 Sean Aylmer: obviously, and they haven't fallen as hard. I once said, 56 00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:04,560 Sean Aylmer: is it a rational market? But someone said if there's 57 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,180 Sean Aylmer: a buyer and a seller, it's always rational, so I'm 58 00:03:06,180 --> 00:03:08,430 Sean Aylmer: not allowed to use that term anymore, I don't think. 59 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:10,740 Sean Aylmer: But they just didn't run as hard, is that basically 60 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:11,550 Sean Aylmer: what it boils down to? 61 00:03:11,790 --> 00:03:14,910 Warren Hogan: Well, the pandemic had two big impacts on the housing 62 00:03:14,910 --> 00:03:16,800 Warren Hogan: market. One interest rates, which we all know. And then 63 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,330 Warren Hogan: the other one was, there was a shift in housing 64 00:03:18,330 --> 00:03:20,609 Warren Hogan: preference and then that was the result of the pandemic 65 00:03:20,610 --> 00:03:23,489 Warren Hogan: directly. People wanted to live in houses rather than apartments, 66 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:26,310 Warren Hogan: we saw a big shift to the regions, particularly close 67 00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:29,580 Warren Hogan: to the major capital cities. So yeah, apartments didn't run 68 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:32,760 Warren Hogan: up anything like houses did in the major capital cities. 69 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,010 Warren Hogan: And the interesting thing in 2022 so far, is apartments 70 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:41,160 Warren Hogan: in Sydney and Melbourne in particular have come off, even 71 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:42,840 Warren Hogan: though they didn't run up as much. So in terms 72 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:48,090 Warren Hogan: of evaluation, I think by March next year, Sydney and 73 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:52,680 Warren Hogan: Melbourne apartments... And this is obviously a general valuation as a whole of 74 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,710 Warren Hogan: the city, big cities, but those markets will be the 75 00:03:55,830 --> 00:03:59,610 Warren Hogan: cheapest, relative to income, they've been for a decade. And 76 00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:03,120 Warren Hogan: that's actually not a bad time to get into what 77 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,980 Warren Hogan: are otherwise pretty expensive markets. 78 00:04:05,550 --> 00:04:07,950 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Tell me, what are investors up to? So we 79 00:04:07,950 --> 00:04:10,320 Sean Aylmer: talk a lot about owner- occupied, but what about investors? 80 00:04:10,590 --> 00:04:11,790 Sean Aylmer: Are they in the market yet? 81 00:04:12,630 --> 00:04:15,450 Warren Hogan: No. The data we have on new lending shows that 82 00:04:15,510 --> 00:04:19,229 Warren Hogan: investors are in retreat every much as first- time buyers, and 83 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,610 Warren Hogan: the owner- occupies, upgraders and downgraders, and so forth. And the history 84 00:04:23,610 --> 00:04:28,440 Warren Hogan: shows, quite perversely I think, that investors too tend to 85 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Warren Hogan: be quite procyclical. So they tend to be buying when 86 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,359 Warren Hogan: times are good and selling when times are bad, and 87 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,480 Warren Hogan: you'd think that experienced investors would go the other way, 88 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,729 Warren Hogan: that is that they'd be looking for value when everyone 89 00:04:38,730 --> 00:04:41,010 Warren Hogan: else is running for the hills, and so on and so forth. 90 00:04:41,010 --> 00:04:44,279 Warren Hogan: So I think you're going to find the investor market 91 00:04:44,610 --> 00:04:48,660 Warren Hogan: come to life before the owner- occupied side really turns 92 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:51,029 Warren Hogan: around, but at the moment... Well, the last data we 93 00:04:51,029 --> 00:04:53,339 Warren Hogan: had was for, I think, September, but even I think 94 00:04:53,339 --> 00:04:56,279 Warren Hogan: into the end of 2022, investors are pretty quiet. But 95 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,289 Warren Hogan: there's a lot of things going for them, not just 96 00:04:58,290 --> 00:05:01,470 Warren Hogan: the fact that prices are coming down and valuations are 97 00:05:01,470 --> 00:05:04,469 Warren Hogan: getting better, but they're still expensive but better. But also 98 00:05:04,470 --> 00:05:07,529 Warren Hogan: the rents are going up, so yields are really starting 99 00:05:07,529 --> 00:05:09,180 Warren Hogan: to move in their favor as well. So I think 100 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:12,599 Warren Hogan: the investors will come back in 2023, assuming we don't 101 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,930 Warren Hogan: have an economic catastrophe, because history shows that when the 102 00:05:15,930 --> 00:05:19,770 Warren Hogan: economy really turns down hard, investors do tend to take fright. 103 00:05:20,220 --> 00:05:22,050 Sean Aylmer: Does it come down to interest rates? Is it as 104 00:05:22,050 --> 00:05:22,710 Sean Aylmer: simple as that? 105 00:05:23,430 --> 00:05:25,380 Warren Hogan: I don't think it's as simple as that, but interest 106 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:28,350 Warren Hogan: rate are the all dominant feature of housing in Australia, 107 00:05:28,350 --> 00:05:31,770 Warren Hogan: whether you're looking at investors or own- occupiers, in particularly 108 00:05:31,770 --> 00:05:33,839 Warren Hogan: in terms of volatility, that is what house prices do 109 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,839 Warren Hogan: from year to year. But investors, as I said, they 110 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,560 Warren Hogan: tend to be procyclical. And I suppose that reflects the 111 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,779 Warren Hogan: fact that people invest when they're confident and when they 112 00:05:42,779 --> 00:05:44,580 Warren Hogan: have money, and that tends to be when the economy's 113 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:47,580 Warren Hogan: good and vice versa. But as we know from professional 114 00:05:47,580 --> 00:05:49,589 Warren Hogan: investing, that's not the right way to do it, the 115 00:05:49,589 --> 00:05:50,910 Warren Hogan: right way to do it is to be buying when 116 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:54,690 Warren Hogan: everyone else is selling and vice versa. So whether that's 117 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:58,770 Warren Hogan: going to change or not, but I think the confidence 118 00:05:58,770 --> 00:06:00,659 Warren Hogan: elements a really important one, and there's just so much 119 00:06:00,660 --> 00:06:02,310 Warren Hogan: uncertainty out there. You can look at that on a 120 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:04,529 Warren Hogan: global basis or looking at here in Australia, you can 121 00:06:04,529 --> 00:06:05,940 Warren Hogan: look at it in terms of markets or you can look at 122 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:08,460 Warren Hogan: it in terms of the economy. There's still a lot of uncertainty, and 123 00:06:08,460 --> 00:06:11,760 Warren Hogan: that's because of the inflation shock. And I'd add on 124 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,800 Warren Hogan: to that, it's a lot of big structural things like 125 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,680 Warren Hogan: geopolitics and climate change are also playing a role. 126 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,500 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Warren. We'll be back in a minute. 127 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:29,279 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Warren Hogan, economic advisor to HALO 128 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:34,230 Sean Aylmer: Technologies. Okay Warren Hogan, so HALO Technologies, it's global equities 129 00:06:34,230 --> 00:06:37,080 Sean Aylmer: research and trade software platform, I said that. Explain that 130 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,060 Sean Aylmer: to us and a little bit more about HALO Property. 131 00:06:39,060 --> 00:06:43,049 Warren Hogan: So it's an Aussie company, listed recently, strong heritage in 132 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:50,279 Warren Hogan: equities, developed very, very rigorous analytical platforms that allow, essentially, 133 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,089 Warren Hogan: retail and high net worth investors access to institutional grade 134 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,510 Warren Hogan: analytical capacity basically. It's really aimed at people who want 135 00:06:57,510 --> 00:06:59,549 Warren Hogan: to do a bit of homework themselves, and then of 136 00:06:59,550 --> 00:07:01,529 Warren Hogan: course on the equity size you can transact, you can't 137 00:07:01,529 --> 00:07:04,529 Warren Hogan: do that in HALO Property, it's more just the analysis 138 00:07:04,529 --> 00:07:08,130 Warren Hogan: there. And it is a bit of... Not so much to do 139 00:07:08,130 --> 00:07:12,120 Warren Hogan: it yourself, but it's not about making decisions for people, 140 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,790 Warren Hogan: it's about helping them make better decisions. So it appeals 141 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:17,760 Warren Hogan: to not just the end investors, but also some of 142 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,970 Warren Hogan: the intermediaries out there. And HALO Property is very much 143 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,880 Warren Hogan: about the journey, it's about watching and monitoring the market, 144 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,850 Warren Hogan: the property market. And I would argue that property, more 145 00:07:29,850 --> 00:07:34,260 Warren Hogan: than equities, or bonds, or liquid financial markets, it's more 146 00:07:34,260 --> 00:07:37,920 Warren Hogan: important to get your timing right, to make your decisions 147 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,070 Warren Hogan: right, because it's a really expensive market to reverse your 148 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,990 Warren Hogan: trade, if you make an error, so the transactions costs are so high. 149 00:07:46,620 --> 00:07:49,230 Warren Hogan: And the ticket size, our individual properties are big, although 150 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:51,750 Warren Hogan: we are looking at other sorts of ways to get 151 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:54,300 Warren Hogan: people access to property. But that's all work in development. 152 00:07:54,810 --> 00:07:57,630 Sean Aylmer: So just talking about that, I mean, there are lots 153 00:07:57,630 --> 00:08:02,130 Sean Aylmer: of alternate ways to get people into the market. Are 154 00:08:02,130 --> 00:08:04,170 Sean Aylmer: there any that you are particularly drawn to? And I 155 00:08:04,170 --> 00:08:06,630 Sean Aylmer: suppose it's not just your work at HALO Properties, but 156 00:08:06,690 --> 00:08:10,890 Sean Aylmer: you were chief economist at ANZ, you have a wealth 157 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:14,340 Sean Aylmer: of experience. The government, obviously, wants to do something with 158 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:17,910 Sean Aylmer: super funds, there are others who have startups trying other 159 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:20,130 Sean Aylmer: ways of getting people into the market. Where do you 160 00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:20,790 Sean Aylmer: stand on that? 161 00:08:21,150 --> 00:08:25,260 Warren Hogan: Well, the reality of the Australian market and the big 162 00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:28,950 Warren Hogan: picture is that, we rarely have an oversupply of property, 163 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,069 Warren Hogan: maybe at a suburb or a regional level on occasion, 164 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:36,090 Warren Hogan: but we tend to be a very efficient market that 165 00:08:36,090 --> 00:08:41,220 Warren Hogan: is a price signal driven market, albeit with lots of regulation around it. But 166 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:44,070 Warren Hogan: what that means is that you have a undersupply, merge 167 00:08:44,070 --> 00:08:48,120 Warren Hogan: prices go up, and the construction industry responds. And what 168 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,830 Warren Hogan: that means is you never get excess housing, which is 169 00:08:49,830 --> 00:08:52,109 Warren Hogan: good because when we have downturns, they're short- lived, unlike 170 00:08:52,110 --> 00:08:54,600 Warren Hogan: say after the GFC in parts of America, or Spain 171 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,940 Warren Hogan: and other parts of Europe, you saw oversupply. Or China 172 00:08:56,940 --> 00:09:00,870 Warren Hogan: right now, massive oversupply. But then to deal with the 173 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:03,720 Warren Hogan: issue of affordability, and other issues that the government's looking at, 174 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,660 Warren Hogan: does require supply. That's all there is to it. There's 175 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:11,250 Warren Hogan: no substitute for supply in a market, it's expensive. So look, 176 00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:14,640 Warren Hogan: we're obviously going to be part of that conversation, but 177 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,070 Warren Hogan: at the moment, we're just trying to improve the knowledge 178 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:20,400 Warren Hogan: levels of people participating in the market. And I think 179 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,920 Warren Hogan: that the more investors involved in property, the better. It's 180 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,680 Warren Hogan: not a hard sell in Australia, the property market is 181 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,080 Warren Hogan: a longstanding investment strategy for Australians going back generations. So 182 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:36,090 Warren Hogan: we're just trying to bring institutional grade analytics to investors 183 00:09:36,090 --> 00:09:38,550 Warren Hogan: in the market, give them some patience to know when to trade, 184 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,189 Warren Hogan: what the right time is, what the right place is. 185 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:45,450 Warren Hogan: Broaden the horizons, just don't look in Sydney or Melbourne, look... 186 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:49,020 Warren Hogan: Is there opportunities in Perth or Tasmania? And I think 187 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:53,429 Warren Hogan: also the unique proposition is the macro, which I'm doing, 188 00:09:53,610 --> 00:09:58,290 Warren Hogan: right through to the detailed core logic data at suburb level. 189 00:09:58,290 --> 00:09:59,910 Warren Hogan: And we are going to try and progress it even 190 00:09:59,910 --> 00:10:02,819 Warren Hogan: further to individual properties if we can. But it is 191 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:07,200 Warren Hogan: that all through end- to- end analytic proposition, which I 192 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,380 Warren Hogan: haven't seen in the market. Having a very cohesive macro 193 00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:13,199 Warren Hogan: view and a forecast. We do do forecast, we don't 194 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:14,820 Warren Hogan: live and die by them, we adjust them as we 195 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:18,270 Warren Hogan: need to. We use them as a benchmark, but all 196 00:10:18,270 --> 00:10:20,460 Warren Hogan: the way from the macro right through to that detailed 197 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:22,140 Warren Hogan: suburb level transactions data. 198 00:10:22,590 --> 00:10:24,360 Sean Aylmer: Warren, I can't let you go without asking you peak 199 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,190 Sean Aylmer: to trough, how far would the market fall? 200 00:10:26,670 --> 00:10:28,890 Warren Hogan: Well look, on the basis of my view on the 201 00:10:28,890 --> 00:10:31,380 Warren Hogan: cash rate, I think we're going to see the national 202 00:10:31,380 --> 00:10:36,000 Warren Hogan: market down somewhere between 24 and 27%. I've got a cash rate 203 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,000 Warren Hogan: going to 4. 35% by the end of next year. 204 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,640 Warren Hogan: But if you take the consensus, which is what I 205 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,491 Warren Hogan: do in HALO, I wouldn't inflict on people my views of interest rates. 206 00:10:44,491 --> 00:10:44,492 Sean Aylmer: Fair enough. 207 00:10:44,492 --> 00:10:51,179 Warren Hogan: Although it will come through in the webinars, no one will die wondering. But in 208 00:10:51,179 --> 00:10:53,820 Warren Hogan: terms of our analytics, the central case that we use 209 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:57,929 Warren Hogan: is essentially my assessment of consensus for everything from interest 210 00:10:57,929 --> 00:11:00,870 Warren Hogan: rates to income growth. And that's a skill I bring 211 00:11:00,870 --> 00:11:02,580 Warren Hogan: to it, because it is a skill developed over many 212 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:06,210 Warren Hogan: years in markets. And on that basis, the consensus view 213 00:11:06,210 --> 00:11:08,160 Warren Hogan: from HALO on the national market is a fall of 214 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:13,530 Warren Hogan: about 20%, and that the property market remains expensive, although 215 00:11:13,530 --> 00:11:15,750 Warren Hogan: property prices are a lot lower than where they are today, 216 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,320 Warren Hogan: before we start to see a rise over the medium term. 217 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,840 Sean Aylmer: Warren, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 218 00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:23,340 Warren Hogan: Thanks for having me, Sean. 219 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,750 Sean Aylmer: That was Warren Hogan, economic advisor to HALO Technologies. This 220 00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:29,910 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Remember, this is 221 00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:32,819 Sean Aylmer: general information only, and you should seek professional advice before 222 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:35,969 Sean Aylmer: making investment decisions. Join us every morning for the full 223 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:39,030 Sean Aylmer: episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. 224 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,739 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.