1
00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:02,600
Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcomes from another instorm of the

2
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: UW Project. Doctor Bill Sullivan is an award winning scientist, author,

3
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: and science communicator. I'm doing a proper intro for you today.

4
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: A science communicator renowned for his work in genetics, microbiology, biology,

5
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 1: and infectious diseases. Put your teeth in, Craig. Doctor Sullivan

6
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,320
Speaker 1: is the author of the phenomenally successful science book Please

7
00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,479
Speaker 1: to Meet Me, Jean's Germs, and the Curious Book Forces Makers.

8
00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 1: Who we are. Here's the thing. If you're going to

9
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,519
Speaker 1: do an intro, Craig, do it properly. Sorry about that,

10
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,160
Speaker 1: I had to go morning doc.

11
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 2: Hey Greg, how you doing.

12
00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm very good, buddy. Well, of course it's nighttime where

13
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,240
Speaker 1: you are. It's nine thirty four now here? What is it?

14
00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,640
Speaker 1: Is it like six thirty four or seven thirty four

15
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 1: over there? What is it?

16
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 2: It's seven thirty in the evening here?

17
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,000
Speaker 1: And so what do we Oh, it's Sunday for you,

18
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 1: it's Monday for me. Has your Sunday been? Oh?

19
00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 2: The Sunday was very pleasant, beautiful, made the routes and

20
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,800
Speaker 2: you know, it's just been a very pleasant day.

21
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 1: Imagine you spent most of us at church, just seeking

22
00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 1: forgiveness and being prostate and repentant.

23
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah right, if I set foot into a church, I'll

24
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,679
Speaker 2: go all Demian thorn, you remember from the Women?

25
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you might spontaneously combust if you

26
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 1: set foot in a house of worship. That would that

27
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,560
Speaker 1: would be fun It's funny because Americans are I don't

28
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:43,319
Speaker 1: know if they're actually genuinely real deal, you know, Christian, Biblical,

29
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: but but like represent as a very Christian nation and

30
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:56,440
Speaker 1: I guess you have like lots of Christian in inverted commas. Friends,

31
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: how do you how do you go with all them?

32
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 1: You and your itheistic worldview?

33
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 2: Well, it's just fine. I mean, it's this nation actually

34
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:15,359
Speaker 2: supports a wide variety of faiths. There is a Christian majority,

35
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,560
Speaker 2: no doubt about it, and there's a segment of that

36
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,320
Speaker 2: that's particularly vocal and under the illusion that this country

37
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 2: was founded to be Christian, which just is utterly false.

38
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,640
Speaker 2: Most of our laws are secular, our ethical system is secular,

39
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,920
Speaker 2: education system secular. And that's all for a very good

40
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 2: thing because instead of catering to one single religion, which

41
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 2: doesn't have a monopoly on all that faith would require,

42
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 2: we get to make laws, policy and education based on

43
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:58,400
Speaker 2: secular ethics, which I think is very reasonable and in fact,

44
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:05,400
Speaker 2: it incorporates a lot of the sensible, you know, morals

45
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,079
Speaker 2: that many different faiths subscribe to, kind of more or

46
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,559
Speaker 2: less universally. So I think that's really one of the

47
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 2: wonderful things. When our founders devised this country, it was

48
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,480
Speaker 2: one of the first that would not establish a federal religion.

49
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah right, It's like I find I find faith and

50
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: faith and belief and knowledge and science and programming and

51
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 1: conditioning and all of those kind of intersecting human variables

52
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 1: where like I grew up in a religious house, and

53
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 1: in that religious house or household, you're not you're not

54
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 1: given suggestions or you know, theoreticals. You're given like absolutes.

55
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 1: This is there is a God, there is this, there

56
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 1: is heaven, there is hell. And in the Catholic system

57
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 1: there is purgatry, there are saints, there are you know,

58
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: there are all of these things where you grow up

59
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 1: in the middle of that and you end up, you know,

60
00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 1: most people anyway, end up believing whatever it is they

61
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 1: were raised in. And I'm not saying this is good

62
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: or bad everyone, and I'm not talking necessarily about religion.

63
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 1: It could be that mum and dad were vegans, or

64
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 1: mum and dad believe that a particular football club was

65
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,800
Speaker 1: the best, or political system is the best. But like

66
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 1: by and large, by the time you're fifteen or eighteen

67
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 1: or twenty, you're probably going to be a version of

68
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,320
Speaker 1: what you grew up in and not having given that

69
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 1: a lot of critical thinking, and you're a byproduct of that.

70
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,040
Speaker 1: Any has that got anything to do with genetics or

71
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,039
Speaker 1: is that just cultural and social programming?

72
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,320
Speaker 2: Well, that's an excellent question, and I of like the

73
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,679
Speaker 2: way you segued into that, because there's a whole chapter

74
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,040
Speaker 2: in my book about Meet your Beliefs, and we talk

75
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 2: about these sorts of things. And it does seem that

76
00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 2: the human brain, and even non primate brains to a

77
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 2: small extent, non human primate brains to a small extent,

78
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:23,440
Speaker 2: have some kind of proclivity towards assigning agency to things

79
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 2: that really don't require it. But our mind is oriented

80
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,040
Speaker 2: in a very cause and effect kind of way. So

81
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 2: if we see effects in the world that we can't explain,

82
00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 2: that makes our brain very uncomfortable. So we seem to

83
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:44,000
Speaker 2: be wired to subscribing some sort of cause to an

84
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 2: effect we can't explain, like bad weather or bad things

85
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,000
Speaker 2: happening to good people, you know, a family member dying.

86
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,599
Speaker 2: There needs to be some sort of cause for that

87
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,279
Speaker 2: effect in our brain. And it's almost universal, you know.

88
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,720
Speaker 2: Religion is a very universal thing amongst humans, which means

89
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 2: there's something biological connected to it, which I find fascinating.

90
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,679
Speaker 2: And obviously these are just hypotheses. There's no concrete data

91
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,680
Speaker 2: on this, but it's see I think I worded it

92
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,719
Speaker 2: in the book like we are all born with like

93
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,040
Speaker 2: an electrical outlet, and different religions are the appliances that

94
00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 2: can plug into it. And just like you said, the

95
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,920
Speaker 2: religion that you have, more than likely is the same

96
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,480
Speaker 2: one that your parents or maybe your community shared, So

97
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:45,560
Speaker 2: your choice of religion is kind of a delusion. It's

98
00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 2: no different than the language that you speak, the religion

99
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,400
Speaker 2: you were born into. And like you said, a lot

100
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,919
Speaker 2: of people don't critically think about it because it is

101
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,400
Speaker 2: so entrenched. It is so ingrained by that point, it

102
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 2: just like the God's honest truth, no pun intended. So yeah,

103
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,679
Speaker 2: and I think that's a really useful way of looking

104
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,560
Speaker 2: at it, and it kind of explains why an appeal

105
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:20,120
Speaker 2: to something supernatural is universal in all cultures, manifested by religion,

106
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 2: yet it has all these different nuances. So all of

107
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,400
Speaker 2: the I think there's some there's some catalog out there

108
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 2: that has like three thousand different religions have been invented

109
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 2: by humans over time. It's an astronomical number.

110
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right, it's like twelve twelve major religions

111
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,880
Speaker 1: and three to four thousand monorn religions.

112
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, so all of them can't be right.

113
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 2: And my philosophy is that means all of them are

114
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 2: probably wrong. So what And then, just like you, Craig,

115
00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 2: I grew up in a religious household, Catholic to be precise.

116
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 2: But when I got to be about seventeen or eighteen

117
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,520
Speaker 2: and I learned about evolution and science and all these

118
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 2: other alternative hypotheses that made a lot more sense to

119
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,400
Speaker 2: my mind than Adam and Eve and some you know,

120
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,640
Speaker 2: you know, great being in the sky sending people to

121
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,160
Speaker 2: heaven and hell, and this notion of an afterlife and

122
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 2: the fact that we have souls. None of that really

123
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,000
Speaker 2: made sense to me, but I had faith in it

124
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 2: for about seventeen years, just kind of dusted the questions

125
00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 2: under the rug, as good religious people usually do, you know,

126
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,439
Speaker 2: because if you think about those things, you'll go to hell.

127
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:42,800
Speaker 1: Right.

128
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 2: There's a lot of fear based in a lot of

129
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,000
Speaker 2: religions which deters people from thinking about it, which I

130
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 2: think is utterly horrible and a terrible thing to teach children.

131
00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,680
Speaker 2: But once I don't know where the I guess the

132
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:08,760
Speaker 2: courage to defy that prohibition of asking questions and critically

133
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,640
Speaker 2: thinking about your faith came from. Probably as I learned

134
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 2: more about science and appreciated that other people had these

135
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 2: same questions. I got a little more brave, if you will.

136
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,079
Speaker 2: I'm a little more comfortable entertaining those sorts of questions.

137
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 2: And I found that science explains so much so better

138
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,520
Speaker 2: that I gravitated to that as the model of my

139
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:44,040
Speaker 2: world rather than anything supernatural. Now that said, I never

140
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 2: want to bash religion. I never want to bash people

141
00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,680
Speaker 2: of faith. I have many friends who are religious. I

142
00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:56,000
Speaker 2: have many family members who are, and I don't hold

143
00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,080
Speaker 2: anything against them for maintaining the beliefs that they have

144
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,839
Speaker 2: have And I would just ask people to have that same,

145
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,679
Speaker 2: you know, curiosity and respect for someone who believed, who

146
00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 2: believes in something very different. So I loved aspects of

147
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 2: religion that we're based in, like community. I think that's

148
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 2: a really important factor, and I love the most of

149
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 2: the moral system. There are some things in various religions

150
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 2: that make a lot of sense to me, and that

151
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,320
Speaker 2: those are behaviors that I wanted to continue. But there

152
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,719
Speaker 2: are other things that religion can tell you to do

153
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 2: that just don't make any sense at all and actually

154
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 2: seem to be against some of the tenets of the religion.

155
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,600
Speaker 2: So being an atheist, I can jettison the beliefs that

156
00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 2: don't make any sense to me or that I find

157
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 2: to be unkind or unfair. But I can keep the

158
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 2: beliefs that I leave are healthy, and evidence can guide

159
00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,440
Speaker 2: you into what beliefs are important to keep and what

160
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 2: you can jettison.

161
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:09,960
Speaker 1: I love it.

162
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 2: Sorry, I didn't mean the launch in two of this

163
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 2: huge sermon, but it is Sunday here, so that that's

164
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 2: my that's my that's my sermon for the day.

165
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:25,120
Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful for a scientist. That was a good sermon. Yeah,

166
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,920
Speaker 1: I think I've you know, I think people get sometimes

167
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,199
Speaker 1: when I talk about religion, I'm really talking about not

168
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,720
Speaker 1: is religion right or wrong? Good or bad, not not

169
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 1: which theology or which doctrine or which like what's what's more,

170
00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,240
Speaker 1: it's what's right or wrong or what's likely or was there?

171
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,840
Speaker 1: Is there really a god? Or is there? But for me,

172
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 1: it's more about I'm fascinated with the way people think

173
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,280
Speaker 1: about religion and the way people behave around religion, and

174
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: that almost these cults of thought, I call them thought cults,

175
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: where you have to think a certain way to be

176
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,840
Speaker 1: in our group. Now forget that it's a religion, it

177
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 1: could be any group of people, but you have to

178
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 1: bide by these thoughts. And if you don't agree with

179
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,000
Speaker 1: these thoughts or ideas or constructs or whatever, then you're

180
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 1: not in the group, or at the very least, you're

181
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,839
Speaker 1: rebellious and you're in sin. Right, Well, that's a really

182
00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,160
Speaker 1: good way to control people and to instill them with

183
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,239
Speaker 1: fear and guilt for not for discouraging them from thinking critically.

184
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,280
Speaker 1: I remember being in church and thinking that does not

185
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: make sense to me. Like the first time was so

186
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,720
Speaker 1: when I was I don't know, maybe ten years old

187
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 1: up until then, when I would go to church, which

188
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 1: was Mass in the Catholic kind of reality, and women,

189
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,880
Speaker 1: ladies were not allowed on the altar. And then one

190
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:46,800
Speaker 1: day I'm at church and I'm sitting next to mom

191
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,640
Speaker 1: and dad and there's a lady on the altar and

192
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, Mum, why is there a lady on the altar?

193
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: That's a sin? And then she went, no, the pope

194
00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: changed it, it's not a and I'm thinking, well, it's

195
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 1: or it's not a sin. It's like, can't be a

196
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 1: sin on Friday, and it's not a sin on Sunday.

197
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,880
Speaker 1: Like that doesn't make sense. I'm like, well, what do

198
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 1: you mean? And I remember thinking, oh, these are not absolutes,

199
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 1: Like obviously I didn't think it that clearly at ten.

200
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:24,719
Speaker 1: But I think also, Bill, humans hate uncertainty and they

201
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 1: hate not knowing. They hate not we hate not knowing.

202
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 1: And and so you if you know that there's a

203
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 1: God and you know that this is the right book,

204
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 1: and if you know that if you do these things

205
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 1: your eternal you know, heavenly whatever is guaranteed, well then

206
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,439
Speaker 1: of course I know, and you don't know. And if

207
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 1: you don't align with me, you're the enemy versus. Look,

208
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,680
Speaker 1: this is what I believe and think, but I could

209
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,520
Speaker 1: be wrong, Like who says that I could be Okay,

210
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 1: this is what I currently think, and maybe I think

211
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,719
Speaker 1: that because that's my programming and my family's influence and

212
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 1: my upbringing. This is what I believe, this is my faith. However,

213
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is what I believe, But that's

214
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 1: not knowledge, because if I had absolutely unequivocal knowledge, proof evidence,

215
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 1: I wouldn't need faith anymore.

216
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, And then those are the sorts of

217
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 2: questions that ran through my mind as I got older

218
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 2: and started learning about all these different things in school,

219
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,400
Speaker 2: different religions around the world, different cultures, and it made

220
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 2: me start to question, well, why is my faith the

221
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 2: quote right one? How do I know if I haven't

222
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 2: even tried all these other ones? What if they're all wrong?

223
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 2: So I believe you're absolutely right, And there is a

224
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 2: great comfort in pretending to know the answers, or even

225
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 2: lying to yourself to the point where you just don't

226
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 2: even REALI you're lying to yourself. You just accept it

227
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 2: as fact. I've also had discussions with religious people, and

228
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 2: again I understand how they feel because I've been on

229
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,760
Speaker 2: both sides of the fence, you know, having lived with

230
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 2: religion for the first like eighteen years of my life.

231
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 2: I know exactly what it feels like to believe and why.

232
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 2: So it's a really wonderful freedom for me. You know,

233
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 2: when I was able to leave all those questions behind

234
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 2: and all these things about faith that just didn't make sense,

235
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:44,280
Speaker 2: all these goofy things about supernatural you know, God's goddesses, heaven, hell, angels, devils,

236
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 2: all these things that you just can't see or prove,

237
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 2: it just felt so refreshing to be able to break

238
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 2: away from that and get rid of all those questions

239
00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 2: and turn and face reality, the real world. Focus my

240
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 2: efforts on scientific method in trying to figure out how

241
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 2: people how the universe really works, because science has a

242
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 2: long history now of being the best tool that humans

243
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 2: devised in order to get as close to the truth

244
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 2: as we possibly can. Religion has failed catastrophically when it

245
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 2: comes to trying to figure out how the real world works.

246
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,880
Speaker 2: What they are really good at is providing psychological tools

247
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,040
Speaker 2: for people to get along. End mass again, another pun,

248
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,280
Speaker 2: I meant, you know, in large numbers, because this is

249
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,240
Speaker 2: really interesting, Craig. I don't know if you know this,

250
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 2: but humans have been around a lot longer than religion has.

251
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so for people who accept evolution and that

252
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 2: there was proto humans before us, and then you know cavemen.

253
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: You know, there didn't used to be any sort of religion.

254
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 2: There didn't used to be gods. And there's actually an

255
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 2: evolutionary process that anthropologists have put together for how how

256
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 2: human beings became religious, and you can you can track

257
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,120
Speaker 2: the validity of this hypothesis by looking at hunter gatherer

258
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:28,119
Speaker 2: tribes that still exist today. So hunter gatherers were probably

259
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 2: very similar to what our ancestors were very long ago.

260
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 2: And the way that gods first started forming were probably

261
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 2: through ancestor gods, and these would have been these would

262
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 2: have been relatives who have passed on but still speak

263
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 2: to the living that would have that has argued to

264
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: have been like the first semblance of a supernatural element,

265
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 2: a world beyond. And you have to always remember that

266
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 2: we are the first species that seems to be capable

267
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 2: of it an extraordinary capacity for imagination, and we can

268
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,680
Speaker 2: hold past, present, and future all in our mind at once.

269
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,200
Speaker 2: I don't think that's been demonstrated for too many other animals.

270
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: We're very unique in this regard, and as a species

271
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 2: that must seek a cause and effect relationship or else,

272
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 2: our mind gets very uncomfortable and anxious. We started to

273
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 2: describe events we couldn't explain to our ancestors that have

274
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 2: passed on. Okay, And if something good happened, it was

275
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 2: because all this wonderful person was looking out for us.

276
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,360
Speaker 2: If something bad happened, it was because, oh, maybe we

277
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,199
Speaker 2: offended our ancestors in some way and we need to

278
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 2: atone for that. That worked really well for small tribal units.

279
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 2: But as societies grew larger and larger, you know, what

280
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 2: became a problem breaking laws, breaking rules because the more

281
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,119
Speaker 2: people there were, the harder it was to keep track

282
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 2: of who was cheating or who was being bad. So

283
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 2: we needed an eye in the sky, if you will.

284
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,879
Speaker 2: And that's where a single angry god came from, Okay,

285
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,879
Speaker 2: a punitive god. And before that, as you probably know,

286
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 2: if you study like Roman or Greek societies, they had

287
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 2: lots of different gods. Native Americans lots of different gods,

288
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: and in fact, many of them were like environmental. They would,

289
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 2: you know, ascribe agency to things like the clouds and

290
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: pray to the clouds to make it rain. You know,

291
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 2: there were rain gods, there were sun gods, and all

292
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 2: of these were tied into things that would help the

293
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 2: community survive a good harvest, you know, a good hunt,

294
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 2: things like that. So there's what I'm trying to say

295
00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 2: is there's actually an evolutionary progression of what humans experienced

296
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 2: is supernatural. It started out with maybe ghosts or ancestor

297
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 2: gods of people who we knew, who passed on family members'

298
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,479
Speaker 2: relative friends. And then it became as humans grew in size,

299
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 2: we needed more gods to look out for us, so

300
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 2: there were gods for everything, and then it evolved into monotheism.

301
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 2: That seems to be the most recent evolutionary step outside

302
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 2: of people doing away with supernatural elements altogether, because I

303
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 2: would say the end of the evolution of religion was

304
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 2: putting your faith, if you will, in science, because science

305
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 2: came along roughly. I mean, I think humans have always

306
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 2: been doing science, but it really started to be become,

307
00:20:54,280 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: you know, a popular way to assess truth during the Renaissance.

308
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,400
Speaker 2: It's maybe a few centuries earlier than that, but once

309
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: we figured out that we could actually learn about the

310
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 2: real world more effectively by testing and observing, generating hypotheses,

311
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: and then using evidence to dictate what is true from false.

312
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: That became the tool that we now use to move forward.

313
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of atheists respect the fact

314
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: that religion is intimately woven into our psychology, and it's

315
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 2: been that way for thousands of years, and that's why

316
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 2: it's so hard for humans to shake Today. Science has

317
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: only been around for a few centuries. It's still relatively

318
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: new way of thinking. But I think ultimately, ultimately, I

319
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 2: don't know how long this will take, but I think

320
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: an appeal to the supernatural will gradually fade away. And

321
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 2: that's not to say that the sense of community or

322
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 2: the sense of morality is going to fade away. Those

323
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: elements of religion I think are universal because the morals

324
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 2: that we have are actually embedded in our genetics and

325
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,959
Speaker 2: in our behavior, in our psychology, So I don't think

326
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 2: they're necessarily religious. But I think that might be one

327
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 2: of the bridges that people can use to start waking

328
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 2: up and walking away from these supernatural elements that just

329
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 2: don't make any sense at all and aren't supported by

330
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: a shred of evidence.

331
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 1: Yeah wow, so good, And I think so a couple

332
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: of things. One of the challenges for many people, whatever

333
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: their belief system, whether it's like being a veganist is

334
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: the only dacent white to eight or Carlton Football Club,

335
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 1: which is a team in Australia in the IFL they're

336
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: the best, or the you know, the Broncos are the

337
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 1: best in the NFL, or or Democrats. This is or

338
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: whatever it is the belief system that we have, or

339
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: whether or not it's you know or you know, Catholicism

340
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: or you know, Evangelical Christianity or whatever. It is the

341
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 1: thing that we are intertwined with, the thing that we believe,

342
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: the thing that we live, the thing that we advocate,

343
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: the wheelbarrow that we're pushing, the philosophical, ideological, theological wheelbarrow

344
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: that we are pushing, becomes our identity, at least in part. Absolutely,

345
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: when you question my religion, doctor Bill, you question me,

346
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to push back because that's offensive.

347
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: And I did that as a kid. Yeah, yeah, I

348
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 2: lived that life.

349
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's like you go, I always say to

350
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: you know when you do that. I love doing a

351
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: deep dive on the philosophical like, well, who am I? Well,

352
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: I'm not a body. I've got a body, but I'm

353
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: not a body, and I've got beliefs, but I'm not them.

354
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: And and you know, I've got a couple of you know,

355
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean credentials, but they're not man, I'm not Then.

356
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: I've got a bank balance, I've got a car, I've

357
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: got a house, I've got things, but I'm not things.

358
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: And you start to kind of figure out, try to

359
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: figure out this, you know, kind of almost circular who

360
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: the fuck am I? But realizing that that that i'm

361
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 1: that my belief the things that I attach myself to

362
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: are really just me on a level giving myself an identity,

363
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: and that we don't like I think the irony is

364
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: for me anyway, And it's really only been in my

365
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: sixty years a relevant kind of advent or occurrence. I

366
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: feel more liberated when I say I don't know. Yeah,

367
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: like I don't know.

368
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: It circles back to the philosophy of uncertainty that you

369
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: alluded to earlier. And I think that's a tremendously freeing

370
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: and an absolutely or absolutely healthier way to live. You

371
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: know that it's really hard to describe how wonderful it

372
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: is to be able to say, you know, is there

373
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: a God? I don't know? That that's just it is

374
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: to me, and and I guess it's the way my

375
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: mind works that brings me more comfort than having to

376
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 2: have an answer. You know, my mind doesn't get anxious

377
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: in the face of uncertainty. If it did, I could

378
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: not function as a scientist. As a scientist, I'm surrounded

379
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: by uncertainty and mysteries every day. But to me, that's

380
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 2: what really makes life compelling and meaningful to live is

381
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: being able to use our human mind to try to

382
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: figure out how the world works or how the body works,

383
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,239
Speaker 2: and using science to do it, because religion will not

384
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: be able to tell you those answers.

385
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: And I think also when you say, okay, I believe,

386
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: I be and see and that is that is true.

387
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: I don't have evidence, But for me, I don't have

388
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: absolute evidence or proof. But that is for me, that's

389
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: the truth. And that then when I believe that now one,

390
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: I've built myself an ideological prison that I have to

391
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: live in. And if anybody disagrees with the prison or

392
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: my ideas or my beliefs, then they're kind of my

393
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: enemy now right. And also when I say, with absolute

394
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: certainty or assumed certainty, I am right about this thing

395
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: for which I have no evidence, I'm also making myself unteachable,

396
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: and I'm also just backstroking in a sea of confirmation bias,

397
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: where it doesn't matter how logical, rational, enlightened, wise somebody

398
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: else is.

399
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 3: If it isn't what I think, you can fuck off.

400
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 3: Yeah your growth is stunted. Yeah yeah, you might as

401
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 3: well just cease living because you're not going to grow

402
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: any more. You're not going to learn anything new. Where's

403
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 3: the joy in life in that?

404
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: So? So, yeah, it is very much like a prison,

405
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: and that describes how I kind of felt as a teenager.

406
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: You know, there's there was this big, wide world out

407
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: there with all these other people who believe differently than

408
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: what I was taught. Yet I was told that they're

409
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: all going to hell, and it's like this doesn't make

410
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: any sense. This isn't kind, this isn't warm hearted, this

411
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: isn't the Jesus that I was taught, you know. So

412
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: it just there was so much cognitive dissonance that I

413
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 2: experienced as a kid. Finally being able to close the

414
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: door on religion was one of the best things that

415
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,239
Speaker 2: have ever happened to me in my life.

416
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's And also even when you think, like

417
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: I used to think about this just logically, and okay,

418
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: you go, all right, well, if there's all these religions,

419
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: I mean, every person in every religion believes that their

420
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: religion is the right religion. Well even if we just go, well, logically,

421
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: that's not true, like we have to like that can't

422
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: be true that everybody's right because we all have different theologies, doctrines, whatever.

423
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: But even in the middle of that, you know, it's

424
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: like logic doesn't seem to get a seat at the table.

425
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 1: Like what has seems to have all the seats is

426
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: emotion and really, more specifically fear.

427
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Faith literally means you have to leave reason at

428
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: the door. You cannot use that as a system to

429
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: validate or falsify your beliefs. You just have to have faith.

430
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: And to me, that's the ultimate F word. Okay, that's

431
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: the f balm For me, Faith is a dirty word

432
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: in the universe I live in because we don't need

433
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: to have faith. We have a brain that can figure

434
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: things out, So why not do that. And if we

435
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: do encounter something that we're not bright enough to figure

436
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: out yet, just don't draw any conclusions at all. Okay,

437
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: I just I was literally be comfortable, be comfortable with

438
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: that you know.

439
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt. I was literally tald that

440
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: I needed to think less and believe more that I

441
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: was literally told that. I was told a lot of people. Yeah,

442
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: my problem, my my thinking, my questioning. It wasn't critical thinking.

443
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: It was lack of faith.

444
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: And I was told it was going to make me miserable,

445
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: you know. I was told, just believe this, you'll be happy,

446
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: You'll be fine. And I think that is why Karl

447
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: Marx I believe it was referred to religion as the

448
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: ultimate drug. It's an opiate, because yeah, you can suck

449
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: at the nipple of religion and get nourishment, but it's

450
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: all an illusion, you know. So I'd rather take my

451
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: chances and live in the real world and try to

452
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: figure it out than just kind of plug myself into

453
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: this spiritual IV unit and get pumped of artificial happiness,

454
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: believing that if I'm a good person, I'll go to heaven.

455
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: I'm a good person because I don't want to be

456
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: a dick, you know. I think it makes sense to

457
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: be good to one another. Okay. The Golden Rule is

458
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: seen in non human primates, so it is deeply embedded

459
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: into our psyche. It's been around a lot longer than

460
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: religion has. And it's a rule that just I think

461
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: you can make any kind of ethical decision simply by

462
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: going for kindness. And this is one of the one

463
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: of the things that Buddhism teaches. You know, I wanted

464
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: to go back a little bit about what you were

465
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: saying about. You know, who the hell are we? What

466
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: is a human being? What is this thing that I

467
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: call myself? And Buddhism has an answer for that, and

468
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: it's basically, the self is an illusion. You know, this

469
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: thing in our brain that we build up to represent

470
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: our self is it is not a static entity. It

471
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: certainly isn't a soul. Neurobiologically, that just doesn't make any

472
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: sense anymore. But yeah, the self is an illusion and

473
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: it changes minute by minute.

474
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: You know, we're not the.

475
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: Same people we were a week ago, month ago, or

476
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: you know, years ago, but we failed to realize that.

477
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: So Buddhism kind of teaches, you know, one of the

478
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: tenets of if you can understand this concept that the

479
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: self is an illusion, you start to let go of

480
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: your ego. And the ego is one of the reasons

481
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: why we have so many problems in this world. If

482
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: everyone was able to suspend their ego and just be

483
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: compassionate for other people. Realizing that we're all in the

484
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: same boat, we're all in this same rock that's going

485
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: around the sun, and we're all in this grand show together.

486
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: Why not help each other out? Why not be kind

487
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: to one another rather than satiate this artificial construction called

488
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: the ego. I find it very I find it very appealing.

489
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. And for those people who are listening, going,

490
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: but doctor Bill, now you're talking about now you're quoting

491
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: a religion, but talking about Buddhism. But Buddhism is a

492
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: philosophy more than a religion, Like it's there's no God

493
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: in per se in Buddhism. Am I correct.

494
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: There's various flavors of Bouddhism, but by and large you're right.

495
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: It is more of a philosophical it's a way of thinking.

496
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: But I believe there are some sects of Buddhism that

497
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: have supernatural components. I obviously do not subscribe to those.

498
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: There's a wonderful book if listeners want to check it out,

499
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: called I think it's called Why Buddhism Is Right, and

500
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: it's written by a science journalist named Robert Wright W.

501
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: R Ight, and he scientifically analyzes some of the major

502
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: tenets of Buddhism in a very compelling, evidence based way

503
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: that leads him to the conclusion that if anyone wants

504
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: to follow a quote unquote religion, Buddhism really has evidence

505
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: to back up the psychological tools that provides its followers.

506
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: So it's really worth looking into. I've done quite a

507
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: bit of it myself. I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist,

508
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: but I do like a lot of the philosophical arguments

509
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: that the Buddha has made and that some of my

510
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: favorite authors, Buddhist authors, have written in modern times. It

511
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: just really provides you with a really great worldview, a

512
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 2: very comforting one at that, and it promotes above all

513
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 2: other things, kindness, compassion, and nonviolence. And if everyone could

514
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 2: practice that, I don't think we'd have a lot of

515
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: problems in this world, you know so, And Buddhism doesn't

516
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: have monopoly on kindness and compassion. Those threads can be

517
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: seen in many different religions all around the world, and

518
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: in fact, that is part of the reason why these

519
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: religions were invented so that people wouldn't be jerks to

520
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: one another, so that people would believe that there's an

521
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: eye in the sky with some kind of you know,

522
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: Excel spreadsheet tallying up their behavior is good and bad

523
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: and neutral, and that would dictate their fate in the afterlife.

524
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: If you go through life sincerely believing that your actions

525
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: are being judged, you're probably going to be a better person.

526
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 2: And that's why religion was effective, you know, until science

527
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: came along and told us that, hey, these morals are

528
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: already embedded in our psyche. Even non human primates have them.

529
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: They weren't delivered to us by Moses or some other

530
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 2: religious figure. They were already there.

531
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: Is So when we think about the relationship between you know,

532
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: genes and like for example, I know you spoke about

533
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: this in your book quite a bit, but just if

534
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: you could unpack and we're doing a little bit of

535
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: a left turn, but free will and I don't know,

536
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: that's a whole part cast in itself. Yeah, can we

537
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: like I think about We'll come back to that in

538
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: one second. I talk to people about I say, maybe

539
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: the biggest challenge we have is managing our own mind,

540
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: because I in a way like our mind is almost

541
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: like our operational headquarters. It's where we process data, we

542
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: feel to the external world. We give things meaning, we

543
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: tell stories, we rate risk, we assess, you know. And

544
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: then and then I think, but, like, how do I

545
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: even manage my mind? Because the tool that I'm using

546
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: to assess my mind is my mind? You know. It's

547
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: like it's this almost you know, this mind fuck. It's

548
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,439
Speaker 1: like I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out how

549
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: I can have a level of objectivity about something I

550
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: can't be objective about because I'm you know, like I'm

551
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: looking through this window that is my beliefs and values,

552
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: trying to get clarity. But I don't know what I'm saying.

553
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: But talk to us about the mind and free will

554
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: and even the idea of objectivity.

555
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think part of what you're describing goes back

556
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: to this concept of the self, and this is an

557
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: image that our brain forms to kind of help us

558
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: navigate the real world. But it gets very egocentric. The

559
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: self is obviously most concerned about our own being, surviving

560
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: and reproducing. On a second level, it's concerned with those

561
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: who are like us, who share our genetic makeup, our family. Okay,

562
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: and then maybe there's another cycle that extends further for

563
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: more distant relatives or even friends who seem to have

564
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 2: a lot in common with us, because they're probably similar

565
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: at a genetic level too. So the self and genes

566
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: are very intimately tied together. We are reproductive machines, and

567
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: our genes basically want to replicate themselves, and many of

568
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: our behaviors are rooted in survival and ultimately reproduction, and

569
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: then then you know the survival of our progeny as well.

570
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: So the ego, the self, and genetics are all very

571
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: tightly woven in to one another. But what gets really cool, Craig,

572
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: is you can kind of measure using MRI what goes

573
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: on in the brain when people contemplate themselves, and you

574
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: can see distinct patterns light up on the brain imaging machines.

575
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: Now you that person takes LSD and one of the

576
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: main thing people describe when they take drugs like LSD

577
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 2: is they lose their s of self, And you can

578
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: see this in the brain imaging experiments. You know, the

579
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: pattern that when people think about themselves evaporates, it's gone,

580
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: so they truly feel that their self is dissolving. And

581
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 2: the flip side of that. The other side of that

582
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: coin is that they feel more connected to the rest

583
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: of the universe, including other people. So I think that's

584
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: pretty amazing. But you know what is even really cool

585
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: when people do loving kindness meditation, which is a form

586
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: of meditation where you just think loving thoughts about other people.

587
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 2: You're wishing them well, You're hoping they have their dreams

588
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: come true. Not just people you know, but strangers and

589
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: even enemies. When you image someone who is thinking about

590
00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: loving kindness, their brain looks like it's on LSD. Self

591
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: dissolves and they are more connected to the universe. So

592
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: there may be some sort of biological process that goes

593
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: on in the brain that helps us keep an image

594
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: of our self together, but that image dissolves when we

595
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: think about helping other people. It's pretty fascinating. So there's

596
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 2: a real, you know, bona fide psychological component to self

597
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: and non self and help, you know, being to the

598
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: point where you can let go of your ego and

599
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 2: become a part of the whole and just be a

600
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: contributor that helps everybody you know get along better. And

601
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: I don't mean get along in a sense of peace,

602
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: but get along in life. You know, give help where

603
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: it is needed, that sort of thing. So you can

604
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: really see there's some wonderful ways that science can actually

605
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: help us understand religion and morality. Now, you mentioned free will,

606
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: so we can circle back to that if you like.

607
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 2: But did I answer the other parts of the question? Okay,

608
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: was that kind of what you were aiming for?

609
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: I think so, I'm just captivated anyway, keep going. I've

610
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: got a couple more questions before we wind up. But yeah,

611
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: talk to us about because I think we like to

612
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: think we're really in charge of everything on planet us.

613
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: You know, in my world, I'm in charge. Or maybe

614
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm just a passenger in my own life and my genetics,

615
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm just a spect an unwilling spectator. I

616
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: feel like I'm a bit of both. Sometimes I'm driving

617
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: the bus, sometimes I'm in the backseat.

618
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's a survival advantage to that, you know,

619
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: there's a survival advantage to thinking that you have agency

620
00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: over things. But yeah, science has done some experiments starting

621
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighty eighties with a fellow named Benjamin Libett,

622
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: and I talk about this in my book as well,

623
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: just some really jaw dropping experiments that made the scientists

624
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: who discovered them question his own results for the rest

625
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: of his life. But they've been repeated many times in

626
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: different ways by a people all around the world. But

627
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: the thing that he discovered was that he would hook

628
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: people up to brain imaging machine and basically ask them

629
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: to look at a clock and then at a certain

630
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: time they would decide whether to press a button or

631
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: something like that. There's been a lot of permutations on

632
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: this experiment. What he found was that there was activity

633
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: in the brain before people were conscious that they pressed

634
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: the button. So, in other words, the brain decided what

635
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: it was going to do on a subconscious level, and

636
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: then our consciousness got wind of it and thought it

637
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: made a story that, oh, I decided to press the

638
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: button so wildly. That really blew the minds of a

639
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 2: lot of people. It was basically saying that subconsciously we

640
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: make decisions, we do them, and then our consciousness tries

641
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: to explain what we've done, and that is what we

642
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: misperceive as free will. So and again, that has been

643
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: done many, many times, and scientists have gotten to the

644
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 2: point where they can look at the brain's activity and

645
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 2: predict exactly when they actually when the participant will press

646
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: the button. So even the scientists now will know when

647
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: they're going to press the button based on the brain scan.

648
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: It's really pretty remarkable. But the person in the experiment

649
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: doesn't know when they're going to press it, you know,

650
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: they still think they're making these decisions. So, you know

651
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: what else is cool. This also explains experiments where you

652
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: can bring people into a room and I'm not getting

653
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: the details of this experiment right because it's off the

654
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: top of my head, but you can set up an

655
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: experiment where people look at maybe two pieces of art

656
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 2: and they pick out which one is their favorite, and

657
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 2: then you bring them back in, you know, maybe thirty

658
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: days later, and you tell them that this is the

659
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: piece of art that you picked as your favorite. But

660
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: it was wrong. Okay, they swapped it on them. They

661
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: actually told them that the one they didn't pick was

662
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: the one that they picked. And seventy five percent of

663
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: a time people didn't realize that the investigator swapped it

664
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: on them, and they would invent reasons why they thought

665
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: that one was the better painting. Wow, when in fact

666
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: that was not the painting that they selected thirty days ago. Wow.

667
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: So that kind of mirrors exactly what Benjamin Libett discovered

668
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: when he was doing his free will experiment. We're not

669
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 2: making these decisions. We have a brain that it tries

670
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 2: to explain what we've done. This also explains a lot

671
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 2: of when you do something stupid or you say something dumb,

672
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: you always try to like defend yourself, right, that's your

673
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: brain trying to compensate for something your subconscious did.

674
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: Do you know have you heard of the artist? He's

675
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: like a straight artist. He's very famous. His name's Banksy.

676
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: I think the name rings a bell.

677
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: Anyway, so this dude started out kind of as a

678
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: graffiti artist and he ended up doing these phenomenal pieces

679
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: of art, and nobody knows who he is, Like he's anonymous,

680
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: but he just signs everything Banksy.

681
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: It's only me.

682
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't think, well, all right, well that then

683
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 1: I'm finished. But anyway, so if you get a Banksy will,

684
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: he now does stuff. He still does, Like he just

685
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: does all these pop ups where people walk down a

686
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: street and at six am in the morning they see

687
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: this thing that's on a wall somewhere and it's by him.

688
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: But he also does other things which get auctioned off

689
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: for charity and and I don't think he's really interested

690
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: in well clear, and I'm interested in being known anyway

691
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: that kind of fame. And I don't know how much

692
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: money means to him. But so anyway, a Banksy that

693
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: just done on a piece of timber, like is worth

694
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: two hundred grande hundred or it sells for that. I

695
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: don't know what it's worth, but if what people pay

696
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: determines the value, well then it's worth that, right. So anyway,

697
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 1: what he did, he did this experiment, and he gave

698
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 1: this guy it was either I think it was eight pieces,

699
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: eight original banksies, which is be worth well over a

700
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: million dollars, like collectively, so each one was worth whatever,

701
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: one hundred to two hundred grand. And this guy went

702
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: to a market you know where they just sell people

703
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: have stores and they sell all kinds of shit. So

704
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: this guy had all the banks he's set up at

705
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: a stall and he said, all original Banksy artwork, blah

706
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: blah blah, and they were all for sale for like

707
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: sixty to eighty dollars. Now they were actually banks the originals.

708
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: You can google this everybody. I'm fucking it up a

709
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: little bit, but the gist of it is right, and

710
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 1: in the course of the day. I think of the eight,

711
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: he sold four and all of them people bargained him down, right,

712
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: so these things and then so then the people that

713
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: then it came out. Then the people that bought the

714
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: four actually sold them for like one hundred thousand dollars plus.

715
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: But there were people, aren't People were walking past going well,

716
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: that can't be real. Now, despite the fact that they

717
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: knew who Banks he was, they liked Banks's work, and

718
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: here were some original Bankses, the context, the price, the context,

719
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: the set and setting didn't make sense. And despite the

720
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: fact that it said and he said, no, these are real,

721
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: these are authentic Banksies. All of the information was true,

722
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: but the context and the setting kind of skewed. And

723
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: the price, of course. And so it's so funny what

724
00:48:53,840 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: people think, what people think. There was another one done

725
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: recently Bill called they set Up I think it was

726
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: in New York. They set up this high end shoe

727
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: shop called Palesso. Like it was like this, so I

728
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: think it was p A. L. E. S. S O.

729
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: This beautiful logo, this beautiful they set up like, you know,

730
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: like a pop up shop. Do you know what that is?

731
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

732
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: We have those, yeah, yeah, so they set up a

733
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: pop up shop and they did this this invite to

734
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,240
Speaker 1: all these wealthy people, and so they made this totally

735
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: fictitious brand Palso with all of these you know, everything

736
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: was well lit all the like, the dacre was amazing.

737
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: The shoes were you know, on shelves under spotlights, and

738
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: all of the shoes were from Payless. Payless and Palesso

739
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: was a play on Payless, right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

740
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: So people were paying eight hundred dollars a thousand dollars

741
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: for a pair of thirty dollars shoes, and they're all

742
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 1: raving about how this is one of their favorite brands,

743
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 1: and the brand coups exist and you had to justify it. Yeah,

744
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: And so they sold all of these pay Less shoes,

745
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: like I mean, I think they were fine shoes, right,

746
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: but they certainly weren't thousand dollars shoes. And people were

747
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: one thousand dollars for something that was probably worth fifty

748
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: or eighty and happy with their purchase. And you know,

749
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: there were camera crews, there were media because this was

750
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,959
Speaker 1: a launch, it was a new outlet. And as people

751
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: are coming out, they're talking about the shoes and how

752
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: beautiful they are and they love the brand and how

753
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: it's going to flourish, and yeah, and it was all bullshit.

754
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: It was all psychology.

755
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 2: It's very humbling to hear experiments like that, but you know,

756
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 2: it's also echoes this concept that we really don't make

757
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: decisions based on reason and life logic sometimes, you know,

758
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: we are basically making decisions on what we're told or

759
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 2: what we're thinking that we perceive in the environment. Similar

760
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 2: studies have been done many times with wine. People are

761
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 2: told that they're drinking a two hundred dollars bottle of

762
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 2: wine when it's actually like two buck chuck or something,

763
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: and they'll rerieve about how great it is, and you know,

764
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: all these different flavors that they're catching. It's just a

765
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: really cheap glass of wine, but you're told it's really expensive.

766
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 2: It changes how you think about the experience.

767
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there was an even and further to that.

768
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: Then I'll shut up. Then I've got one question, which

769
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: is from a friend who wants me to ask you something.

770
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: There was a I think they just call it the

771
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: Milkshake Study. It was done in Canada. I think it

772
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: was twenty ten. I've definitely spoken about this on the

773
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: show before. I don't know if I've spoken to you,

774
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: but they sat these people down who were so obviously

775
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: you know what grelon is, the hunger hormone. I don't

776
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: need to actuate you, right. Do you remember this experiment

777
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: where so they got people who were hungry, they hadn't

778
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: eaten for a period of time, maybe eighteen to twenty

779
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: four hours, and they brought them in and they sat

780
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: them down three times where their grelon levels were elevated.

781
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: All the people were hungry, and they gave them basically

782
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: a low calorie milkshake like one hundred and twenty calories,

783
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: medium like three hundred calories, and then milkshake with you

784
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: know burger with the lot like fat sugar cream. It

785
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: was yummy. Right, So there was like one hundred and

786
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: twenty a three hundred and a six hundred calorie version,

787
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: and anyway, they all knew what the experiment was. And

788
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: then accordingly, you know, the more calories they had, the

789
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: lower the grelon levels were, post you know whatever, all

790
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: of that, and then you know what I'm going to say.

791
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: Then they sat them down and they said, you drank

792
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: three times, you drank the same thing. But what they

793
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: thought they were drinking actually created a physiological change in

794
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: you know, what was happening in their endocrin system in

795
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: terms of Grellen levels. And it's like, it's so incredible

796
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: what the mind or the brain thinks is happening, and

797
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: that there's you know, the psychology and the physiology is intertwined.

798
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: It certainly is that those are fascinating experiments, and it

799
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 2: kind of you know, there can be a real silver

800
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: lining to those sorts of studies because they can be

801
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 2: a little upsetting because it takes away a lot of

802
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 2: our agency. But you can also interpret that as you

803
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 2: can potentially change your neurochemistry and maybe your physiology just

804
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: by controlling your thoughts. Yeah. Now I'm not saying that

805
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 2: people can like think their way out of cancer or

806
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: something like that, but you can certainly make you know,

807
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: more modest adjustments by learning how to adjust your thoughts

808
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 2: to achieving more productive outputs. I forget her name, but

809
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: she wrote The Optimism Bias Terry Shilow or something like that,

810
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: fascinating book. But there's a lot of psychological experiments that

811
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 2: have been done showing that people who have a modestly

812
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 2: optimistic outlook have much better physiology and people who have

813
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: a pessimistic outlook who learn to regulate their thoughts more

814
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: towards an optimistic bias. Yeah, these biomarkers actually increase in

815
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: their favor. So there's some real science behind being able

816
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 2: to use, you know, controlling your inner monologue to think

817
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 2: more positively and then benefiting from that physically. You know,

818
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: it's it's not much different than the milkshake or Grellin

819
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: experiment that you're describing.

820
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and it gives it gives.

821
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: Credence to the power of our thoughts. You know that

822
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 2: that should not be underestimated. And I don't mean they'd

823
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 2: sound too woo woo here, but you know, you know,

824
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 2: there are what is thinking, what is thought? Well, that's

825
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: a change in neurochemistry is basically what's going on. So

826
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 2: I think it's completely plausible that if you change your

827
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: neurochemistry in a certain way, it's going to manifest itself

828
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: different ways physiologically.

829
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 1: I think.

830
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 2: So, I think it's plausible.

831
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 1: I think is it psycho neuro immunology that kind of

832
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: explores the relationship between what's happening in our head and

833
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: our immune system.

834
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,959
Speaker 2: I think, what did you call it again.

835
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: It's called psycho neuro immunology.

836
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,280
Speaker 2: It's probably Yeah, that seems to be an adequate title

837
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: for it, but yeah, it's it's basically learning how to

838
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 2: control your thoughts in a way that is going to

839
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 2: improve your body's biochemistry.

840
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: Think about like, like, if I'm sitting here and I'm safe,

841
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 1: there's no risk, there's no danger, I'm totally okay, nothing

842
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: bad's going to happen. But I think something bad's going

843
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: to happen. Well, I'm producing physiology that's consistent with threat danger.

844
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: You know, now my blood pressures up, my heart rates up,

845
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: my adrenalines going nuts, sympathetic nervous system has gone nuts.

846
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 1: You know. Now I'm in I'm in a heightened state,

847
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: not because the situation requires it, but because I had

848
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: a thought.

849
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? Yeah, you're you're You're like geared up

850
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 2: for fight or flight, even when there's no danger around you.

851
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: This is what horror films exploit all the time. You know,

852
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: our mind gets wrapped into this fantasy and it's producing

853
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 2: certain neurochemical reactions that elicit a real physiological response.

854
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: All right, last question before we go. This is from

855
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 1: my friend who wants to know, does doctor Bill take

856
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: any supplements? If yes, what and why now? Now that's

857
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: a very random question by some way with pain.

858
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 2: For today's episode. Yeah, but if you know, people who

859
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: have a history of listening to me Babbel on your podcast,

860
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 2: we've certainly talked about diet and exercise and healthy living.

861
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 2: I don't have any medical conditions that would warrant my

862
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: taking a supplement, so you know, my doctor hasn't prescribed

863
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 2: any such thing. Now, there are people out in the

864
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 2: world who might have, you know, certain deficiencies in various

865
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 2: vitamins or minerals, and if you are diagnosed, you should

866
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 2: take whatever supplement the doctor prescribes. But me personally, not

867
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 2: having those conditions, I just get all of my nutrients

868
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 2: from food, you know, a healthy diet. I don't see

869
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: a need to take any sort of supplement whatsoever. And

870
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 2: there's actually a lot of good scientific data that says

871
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 2: supplements in isolation of the food really don't do you

872
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 2: any good. You know, there's something about you know, like

873
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: when you eat an orange, there's something else in the

874
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 2: orange that makes the vitamin C work a lot more

875
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 2: efficiently and better than if you were to just pop

876
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: a vitamin C pill right now. That said, if you're

877
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: going into the desert and won't have vitamin C for

878
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 2: a long time, by all means you should maybe take

879
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 2: a supplement. So I think it's very contextual, but on

880
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 2: a day to day basis, I take absolutely zero supplements.

881
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: Awesome. How do people connect with you? Darkwere? Can I

882
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: find you? Follow you? Doctor? Bill's book is called Place

883
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: to Make Me Jans Germs and the Curious Forces that

884
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,919
Speaker 1: make us who we are. Sorry, go ahead, thanks, Craig.

885
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: The best place to find me is author Bill Sullivan

886
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 2: dot com. That's my website. You can learn about the book,

887
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: and if you click on the media page, you'll see

888
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: all these wonderful podcasts that I've been on talking with

889
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 2: Craig and some other folks. If you click on writing,

890
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 2: you'll see all of the latest articles that I've written

891
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: for various publications.

892
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: Perfect, well, say goodbye off here, but as always, I

893
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thanks for hanging out with us on the

894
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: You project.

895
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 2: It's always my pleasure and I love hearing from your listeners.

896
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: Thanks buddy,