WEBVTT - BONUS: Remembering Leisl: Jerildene Cane Pt.2 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.480 Hi, it's Gary jubilin here. I'm excited to announce I'll 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.680 be hosting a live podcast recording at the Factory Theater 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.040 in Sydney on the twenty seventh of November. Spend the 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.879 evening with myself and two special guests as we take 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.360 a deep dive into the world of crime and punishment. 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.599 You'll even be able to take part in a live 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.800 Q and A. I'll be there before and after the 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.279 show to have a chat. Tickets are available through the 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.000 link in the show notes, or visit the Eyecatch Killers 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.040 Instagram or Facebook group. I hope to see you there. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:29.960 It's going to be raw and I reckon a lot 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:34.560 of fun. The public has had a long held fascination 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.879 with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.120 person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.640 as a cop. For twenty five of those years I 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.200 was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:49.839 I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.640 bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.560 in which I operated. The guests I talk to each 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.040 week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.840 The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.560 I talked to. Some of the content and language might 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.200 be confronting. That's because no one who comes in the 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.640 contact of crime is left unchanged. Join me now as 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:17.360 I take you into this world. Welcome back to part 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.920 two of my chat with Geraldine Kine. Geraldine's younger sister, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.040 Lisel Smith, disappeared on the New South Wales Central Coast 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:28.039 back in twenty twelve. After a lengthy investigation, a person 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.200 known to James Church was charged with Liesl's murder. In 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.319 Part one, we talked about the way that Geraldine became 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.399 aware of Lisel's disappearance and the impact it's had on her, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:41.759 and bearing in mind this is over a six year 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:46.000 period that Part one Geraldine described. We're now going to 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.960 hear from Geraldine what it was like attending the trial 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.240 and what she learnt during the trial, and her version 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:54.360 of the unforeseen twist at the end of the trial 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.760 and how she dealt with that. We're also going to 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.520 discuss if there is any way Lisaal's family can find 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.640 out what happened to Lusel and get some form of justice. Geralone, 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.640 Welcome back, he Gary again. I apologize for discussing this 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.880 and dragging this up, but I think it's important that 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.000 people talk about their experiences, like your experience. So I 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.440 want people, and I was always at pains as a 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.919 homicide detective, if I want people to understand what families 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.400 are going through when people who have disappeared or people 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.960 have been murdered, and it's horrendous and unless you've been there, 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.160 I don't think you can fully fully appreciate it. 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:31.840 It wasn't on my bucket list of things to do. 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.280 Put it that way, I don't know anyone that would 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.919 have that as something to do on their bucket list. No, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.560 as I said before, you know that sort of stuff 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.040 always happen to other people and you feel compassion and empathy, 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.120 and then you know, as you said, you know, go 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.760 into the next thing until you become those other people 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.560 and it happens to you. It's certainly not something that 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:59.640 I ever thought would happen to me, or that I 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:06.040 would have to explain to people. Even now, I don't 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:12.720 really talk about it. It's quite difficult. I tend to 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.640 talk about it with people that I've known for a 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.640 long time, so if I meet someone new, it's not 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:18.000 really something that I bring up. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.600 You know, it's just it's a hard, hard topic to 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.320 bring up, and sometimes people don't know how to deal 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.800 with you bringing the topic up, and it's almost what 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.000 do I say, Well. 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:29.880 Yeah, I think that's a huge part of it. And 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.400 you know, I think a lot of people tend to 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.360 think that, you know, we want you to fix what's 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:37.880 gone on, and. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:40.880 You can't. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.520 I don't necessarily have that expectation of anyone that I 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.760 talk to lisl about, but you know, sometimes I just 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.760 want people to listen or to recognize that, you know, 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.560 missing people affect everybody in society. It's not just you know, 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.440 the immediate families and their friends, but it is the 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:04.160 whole of society, you know. It's it's the fabric of 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.360 society that missing people, you know, affect. And as I 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.240 said to you in a previous conversation, you know, society. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.760 I look at society as a bolt of fabric that's 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.800 got different weaves in it, and missing people are one 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.560 of those threads. And if you don't have that thread, 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.360 then that fabric pattern isn't complete. You're missing a thread. 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.400 It's you know, it's not like you can suddenly find 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.840 out it's a pulled thread and fix it up. And yep, 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.400 in some cases that happens. And I am so happy 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.000 for those families that do find their missing loved ones, 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.320 but there are also quite a number of us that don't, 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.760 and you know, realistically never will. 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.680 Yeah, it's hard, isn't it. It's very hard to come 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.359 to terms with that. We're going to talk about the 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:55.320 murder trial with Liesel's case. Before we do, just describe 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.640 the type of person Lisel was. She was twenty three 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.200 years old where she disappeared. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.680 She was her own person, she liked her own company. 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.279 She was just doing life like any other twenty three 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:14.320 year old, you know, making mistakes, you know, making good choices, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.119 making bad choices, you know, working out what she wanted 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.960 to do as a job, whether that was for the 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.159 rest of her life or you know, for six months 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.680 until you know, she found something else she wanted to do. 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.400 You know, she was working, she was working it out, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.600 you know, like any other twenty three most twenty three 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:35.119 year olds. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.280 You know, it's a great time of life, isn't it. 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.960 You're old enough to make the mistakes, but you've also 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.720 got some control on your life, and it's an exciting 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.480 time of life as twenty five now. 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.680 I wouldn't mind being twenty three again, but that's never going. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.600 To happen if we work out the war and the 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:51.800 clock back. Yeah, I'll keep the wisdom. 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.880 I'll keep the wisdom, thanks, but I'll take the rewinding age. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:56.920 I think we could sell that to a few people. 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.080 Oh, I'm sure we could. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.279 Okay, experits of a murder trial and I've been to 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.400 countless murder trials and I've got to say they're emotionally 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.200 and physically draining. I'd never come out at the end 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.360 of a murder trial the same as I went into it. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:15.080 And I'm just city a police officer involved on the perif. 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.200 I can't even fathom how much it drains. You been 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.640 a family member going through a murder trial? Do you 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.640 want to talk us through the whole process? 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.880 So I got informed that I would be subpoenaed to 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.840 give evidence at the trial and got served with a 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.160 subpoena that was arranged. I was warned, which was good 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.560 because I could warn work that I was required because 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:44.960 I worked for State Health Service. There are requirements about 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.719 when I'm subpoena, like when I was subpoened that I 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.200 had to inform certain. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:49.680 People and whatnot. 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:55.200 So I was forewarned and I spoke to the barristers 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:57.919 a couple of times before I got on the stand. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.600 They did their best to me, which I found really helpful, 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.119 and they were very understanding that, you know, that's something 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:06.839 else that wasn't you know, it was never on my 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.440 bucket list. So I was always, you know, always worried 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.800 about going to coroner's court for work and not probably 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.680 have nothing to worry about that in that regard. So 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.120 they did their best to sort of prep what they 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.239 would ask and what they were going to question me about. 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.280 Obviously they couldn't tell me what the defense was going 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:29.080 to ask. They also had told me a few months 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.560 previously when this was moving through the courts. So as 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.040 you would know, with a homicide charge, it moves through 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:36.840 the local and the district courts first, and then an 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.640 application is made to the Supreme Court to have the 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.680 charge heard in the Supreme Court. All those unaware, it's 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.360 a very long process. And in the midst of this process, 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.640 COVID had hit, so we had a delay of I 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.440 think about six to eight months because everything just shut down, 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.119 which certainly didn't help. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.320 It adds to the trauma. 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.840 Yeah, it certainly didn't help because you want things to regress. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.280 At the same time, it was a world wide pandemic, 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.440 so you know, yet something else that's out of your 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.600 control that you can't do anything about. And so I 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:11.320 knew that the judge was, you know, was pretty She 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.240 was strict but fair, and I have nothing but the 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:20.200 utmost praise for Justice Fullerton. So I was subpoened. I 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.440 couldn't listen to the first two weeks of the trial 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:24.280 because I was a. 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:28.480 Witness, which explain that to people, because again most people 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:33.560 don't get experience in her criminal courts, especially the murder trial. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.760 But if you're a witness in a murder trial, regardless 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.720 of your relationship to the victim or your involvement, until 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.520 you've given evidence, you're excluded from the court. You can't 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.640 go in there and understood why you can't hear other 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.200 people give evidence before you give your evidence. But that 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.120 then itself can be very frustrating. I've been in charge 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.559 of murder investigations where I've had to sit I'm virtually 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.640 the last witness, so I've had to sit outside the 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.040 whole trial of matter that you've invested years in two 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.400 and not knowing what's going on. I'm mainly the police officer. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.280 You're a family member. How frustrating was it sitting outside 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.760 while the murder trial for your sister was going on. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:11.880 I actually had. 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:16.679 To do my evidence via AVL audio visual. I had 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.880 had some health problems and had required surgery and I 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:24.920 wasn't allowed to fly. So originally the defendants lawyer had 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.840 wanted me up in Sydney in person, so I don't 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.320 live in New South Wales, and there was a lot 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.360 of toing and frowing about me going up there, and 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:34.840 in the end I had to get a letter from 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.280 the specialist saying that I was not medically cleared to fly, 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.160 and Justice Fullerton went, that's it, She's doing it via 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.360 audio visual, which was done at one of the court 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.160 houses in the capital city I live in. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.720 The biggest issue was the dates. 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.960 Kept changing, so I think there was like one or 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.000 two dates. Initially we were given a date and then 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.840 that was changed because they didn't get through witnesses or 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.800 there was some sort of discussion between the barristers and 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.160 the judge and then it got changed again. And it 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.360 was frustrating because you know, we've got kids. 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:10.360 I was trying to get time off work. 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.840 I'm trying to like a doctor's surgery. They line up 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.680 about ten patients that they know they can the same day, 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.080 in the same hour, and that's what they do with witnesses. 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.080 So I do understand. Yeah, your frustration. That is the 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.160 nature of the justice system in the courts always got 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:26.520 to have them. 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.600 Yeah, that was explained to me. That I wasn't left hanging. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.520 I was explained we didn't get through everyone, you know, 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.640 evidence took longer today, and I was like, okay, cool, 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.079 and that I didn't have a problem with that necessarily 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.640 because I was kept in the loop of what was 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.920 going on, and I was like, yep, fine. And then 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.760 finally they cemented in a date and a time and 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.480 I had to basically sit in a room. The only 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.439 person who I could see was the judge and the 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.680 defense lawyer and the two barristers. I couldn't see the 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.480 defendant or anybody else in the courtroom, which in all 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.559 honesty was completely fine with me. I gave evidence. Justice 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.120 Fullerton was very thorough and there are a couple of 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.800 instances where I think. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.960 She realized that I. 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.360 Possibly not didn't quite understand what was being asked, and 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.319 so she clarified for me, which was very appreciated. I was. 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:20.760 I gave evidence, I think. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:24.720 For just under two hours, and the DPP were very good. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:26.679 You know, they covered what they had said that they 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.319 would cover, so I was prepared for that. And then 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:35.200 the defense lawyer started and some of the questions that 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.640 he asked I just found completely in a and irrelevant. 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.200 But it's not my job to work out why he 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.400 was asking those questions. I answered as best as I could. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:52.080 Towards the end, I got frustrated and didn't lose my temper, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:58.040 but my frustration showed, and I remember sitting there, you know, 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.600 feeling like I'd run a marathon. I had tried to 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.480 keep myself calm, you know, and recognize that you know, 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.920 I'm doing this to help with my sister. You know, 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.560 I can't get emotional, I can't get frustrated. But he 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.200 kept hammering home one particular point, and in the end 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.760 I just turned around and snapped at him, for want 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.280 of a better word, and then that was the end 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.800 of questioning. I was excused. I remember just getting up 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.400 and going as soon as I was excused, because my 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.520 understanding was that once you're excused. If they want you 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.959 back in court, they have to recipoena you, so I 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:35.440 didn't want to give them any time to do that. 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:41.360 And then smart play, Yeah, I flared out of the Yeah. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.440 In some ways, I felt a sense of relief and 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.640 like a way to being lifted off my shoulders because 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.360 I could now find out what was going on. I 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.400 could listen to the evidence. They had to apply to 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.760 the judge to get clearance for me to be able 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.280 to and she gave that. I think it was about 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.920 a week before I felt like I could sit there 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.559 and listen to what was being said in court. 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.600 So they set up facility for an AVL for you 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:07.200 to listen to the form. 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.199 They email you a link that you can link into 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.360 and they you know, you have to log in and 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.040 they obviously realize who it is and then off you go. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:17.920 That was horrendous. 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.800 The thing that really got me is that they were 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.559 discussing Lisel and the things that were said about her, 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:27.000 in particular. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:27.200 By the defense. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.560 I know that the defense lawyer was doing a job 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.080 that he was being paid to do, but it's still 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.160 not nice to hear certain things said, regardless of whether 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.400 they are true or not, about a family member, as 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.679 I'm sure you know people that have experienced this can appreciate. 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.760 And I guess the bier sense of injustice at that 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.080 point for me was that Liseel had no way of 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.600 defending herself against against. 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:53.679 What was being said. 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.120 You know, in if any of half of what was 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.760 said was said in a public domain or on Facebook 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.120 or any other social media, you could go after someone 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.920 for defamation, you know, and what not, on slander and 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.680 everything else. And you know, this is in a criminal court, 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.120 and they can basically say what they like about the person, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.319 you know, in this case, my. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.720 Sister, And it is hard for loved ones that with 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.320 victims that And you've nailed the point. She's not there 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.760 to defend herself, so they can throw speculative comments up 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.440 about the type of person she is or things that 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.240 might have been done, and she's not there to defend 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.640 her self. So I can understand how painful that would 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.320 be for a loved one to watch that play out. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.800 Yeah, it basically felt like it was a free for all, 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.080 you know, open slather on her, and that was really 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.960 frustrating and quite upsetting a number of times. Some of 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:57.000 the things that were said, especially by the defense defense lawyer, 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:58.600 and as I said, I understand he's got a job 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.720 to do. And that's from what I understand. That's whey 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:02.560 criminal court. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.960 Is you know exactly well, it's an adversarial system and 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:10.600 that is the way that matters are adjudicated. Can I 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.200 just to put it in context so people understand, and 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.120 we won't go through all the evidence, but just in 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.920 context the basic summary of the trial. So in twenty twelve, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.960 Lisal left house one day to drive to Tugara train station, 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.680 parked a car, and then a witness saw her getting 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.480 into another white uit. It was the last time she 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.280 was seen alive. She was a missing person for six years, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.800 never found a body. Everything pointed to Jim Church, an 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.200 older neighbor who was a local horse trainer. Rumors were 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.920 Lisal had an affair with him, got pregnant, and he 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.640 killed her. Her body has not been found. Now that's 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.280 a very brief description of the type of allegation. It's 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.880 not going into the full facts of the matter, but 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.560 just so people when we're talking about understand what was 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.160 going on with this trial, because the trial ran for 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.600 our correct me if I'm wrong thirteen and a half 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.080 weeks seventy days. Yep, it was a judge alone trial. 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:05.960 Yes, it was. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:07.680 My understanding, is that explained to you? 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.840 Yeah, it basically meant that it was the judge and 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.120 the judge alone who heard all the evidence, heard all 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.760 the arguments, and you know, made rulings on what could 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.119 or couldn't be submitted and whatnot. There was no jury whatsoever. 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.680 My understanding is usually there's a choice. You can have 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:27.400 a judge and a jury, or you can have a 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.760 judge loan trial. The option, as far as I understood, 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.120 wasn't given in this case because of COVID, so, which 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:36.400 is to me, neither here nor there. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.800 So, Yeah, during the course of the trial, you're listening 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.000 to it. You've got over the time period where you 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.200 were excluded from the court, You've given your evidence, and 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.760 now you're starting to listen to the trial. How did 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:49.960 you think the trial was going. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.760 I kept an open mind because as in as everyone 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:56.680 knows in this country, you know, you have the right 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:58.880 to be presumed innocent until found guilty in a court 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:04.080 of law. And in some ways I wanted to listen 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:08.240 to bear witness for Lisel. That was how I felt, 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.280 and I wanted to hear what the evidence was with 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.359 my own ears. There are a number of witnesses that 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:19.520 were expert witnesses on like phone towers and roadworks and 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.160 you know all these other bits and pieces that were 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.560 crucial to the case for the DPP. And what I 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.200 found really good was that Justice Fullerton, if she wasn't 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.119 clear on something, she got the person who was in 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.200 the stand at the time to clarify so that she 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.560 completely understood what the evidence they were giving was about, 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.199 which I know was very helpful. As the trial progressed 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:45.280 and more and more witnesses were gone through, I started 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.520 forming my own opinion, and I think the crux of 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:54.160 it came towards the end when both my stepdad and 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.840 the defendant were called to give evidence along with By 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.000 this stage the police interviews with the defendant had been played. 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.240 I think they're about five or six. So you just 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.320 saw the only way to eliminate this thread was to 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.760 murder Lusel anyway. 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.120 For what you don't know is that Lucil was never 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:12.840 bringing up. 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:15.840 That's a difference to me. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.480 We believe he murdered Lusel in the world right. We 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.280 believe that her remains are located in the Hunter and 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:25.600 we want to know where she is. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.800 I haven't murdered a run. I don't know where she is. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:30.160 I certainly don't own a gun. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.200 I've never murdered anyone. I said to the arrises for 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.560 the DPAP at one stage, I'm surprised they didn't hear 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.520 me yelling at the computer from interstate because I was 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.800 just so incredulous about what the defendant had said. You know, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.119 in regards to Lisel, the way that he spoke about 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.879 her and the person he was with at the time, 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.000 who was apparently the love of his life was just disgusting, 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.320 you know. And the way that he presented himself in 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.959 court verse is what he said when he thought no 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.919 one was listening, was a very stark contrast. 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:09.240 This was the covit evidence was gathered through listening devices 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:10.359 or phone taps. 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.679 Yes, yes, so there were listening devices planted in his 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.359 parents house where there were conversations recorded between his parents 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.760 and his sister as well as him. They planted listening 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:25.520 devices in his I think his car and in his house, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:31.480 and there had also been intercepts picked up between him 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:35.600 and other witnesses. So basically he had an outright asked 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:36.600 people to lie for him. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:37.920 To provide an alibi, but. 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.560 He had said, oh, you know, you stick with the story, 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.040 and once those had been disproven, you know, my understanding 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.840 was that he really had nowhere to go with, you know, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.040 explaining where he'd been. Phones had been turned off and 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.199 then turned on, and he was like, oh, but I was, 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.119 you know, at my girlfriend's house at the time, and 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.639 they said, okay, fine, you know, but she's wrung immobile 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.080 and you know, everyone's done the thing where, you know, 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:04.840 I can't find a mobile, can you ring it for me? 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:05.359 Sort of thing. 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:08.639 But she'd also rung his landline as well, and it 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.520 showed when they had telecommunication experts coming that he'd actually 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.040 turned his phone off until like one one point thirty 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:15.919 or something in the morning. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.040 It was on the crucial time. 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.760 On the crucial time. The other thing was that up 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.880 until the nineteenth of August, he and Lisal I think, 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.720 in the course of four to six weeks or something 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.520 had exchanged nearly two thousand text messages. I think it 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.439 was like eighteen hundred, just over eighteen hundred, you know, contacts, 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:40.200 And the nineteenth of August came and went was literally like. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:42.800 It had dropped off a cliff. 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.359 There was nothing. He didn't text her, he didn't message her, 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.439 he didn't ring her to find out if she was Okay, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:49.520 you know, I know I'm not the only one that 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:52.480 messaged or tried to contact her. There was nothing from 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:52.960