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Speaker 1: Hi, it's Gary jubilin here. I'm excited to announce I'll

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Speaker 1: be hosting a live podcast recording at the Factory Theater

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Speaker 1: in Sydney on the twenty seventh of November. Spend the

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Speaker 1: evening with myself and two special guests as we take

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the world of crime and punishment.

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Speaker 1: You'll even be able to take part in a live

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Speaker 1: Q and A. I'll be there before and after the

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Speaker 1: show to have a chat. Tickets are available through the

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Speaker 1: link in the show notes, or visit the Eyecatch Killers

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Speaker 1: Instagram or Facebook group. I hope to see you there.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be raw and I reckon a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. The public has had a long held fascination

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Speaker 1: with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average

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Speaker 1: person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years

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Speaker 1: as a cop. For twenty five of those years I

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Speaker 1: was catching killers. That's what I did for a living.

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Speaker 1: I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing

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Speaker 1: bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world

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Speaker 1: in which I operated. The guests I talk to each

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Speaker 1: week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

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Speaker 1: The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people

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Speaker 1: I talked to. Some of the content and language might

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Speaker 1: be confronting. That's because no one who comes in the

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Speaker 1: contact of crime is left unchanged. Join me now as

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Speaker 1: I take you into this world. Welcome back to part

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Speaker 1: two of my chat with Geraldine Kine. Geraldine's younger sister,

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Speaker 1: Lisel Smith, disappeared on the New South Wales Central Coast

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Speaker 1: back in twenty twelve. After a lengthy investigation, a person

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Speaker 1: known to James Church was charged with Liesl's murder. In

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Speaker 1: Part one, we talked about the way that Geraldine became

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Speaker 1: aware of Lisel's disappearance and the impact it's had on her,

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Speaker 1: and bearing in mind this is over a six year

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Speaker 1: period that Part one Geraldine described. We're now going to

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Speaker 1: hear from Geraldine what it was like attending the trial

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Speaker 1: and what she learnt during the trial, and her version

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Speaker 1: of the unforeseen twist at the end of the trial

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Speaker 1: and how she dealt with that. We're also going to

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Speaker 1: discuss if there is any way Lisaal's family can find

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Speaker 1: out what happened to Lusel and get some form of justice. Geralone,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, he Gary again. I apologize for discussing this

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Speaker 1: and dragging this up, but I think it's important that

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Speaker 1: people talk about their experiences, like your experience. So I

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Speaker 1: want people, and I was always at pains as a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, if I want people to understand what families

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Speaker 1: are going through when people who have disappeared or people

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Speaker 1: have been murdered, and it's horrendous and unless you've been there,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you can fully fully appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't on my bucket list of things to do.

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Speaker 2: Put it that way, I don't know anyone that would

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Speaker 2: have that as something to do on their bucket list. No,

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Speaker 2: as I said before, you know that sort of stuff

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Speaker 2: always happen to other people and you feel compassion and empathy,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, as you said, you know, go

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Speaker 2: into the next thing until you become those other people

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Speaker 2: and it happens to you. It's certainly not something that

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Speaker 2: I ever thought would happen to me, or that I

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Speaker 2: would have to explain to people. Even now, I don't

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Speaker 2: really talk about it. It's quite difficult. I tend to

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Speaker 2: talk about it with people that I've known for a

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Speaker 2: long time, so if I meet someone new, it's not

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Speaker 2: really something that I bring up.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just it's a hard, hard topic to

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Speaker 1: bring up, and sometimes people don't know how to deal

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Speaker 1: with you bringing the topic up, and it's almost what

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Speaker 1: do I say, Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a huge part of it. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of people tend to

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, we want you to fix what's

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Speaker 2: gone on, and.

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Speaker 3: You can't.

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Speaker 2: I don't necessarily have that expectation of anyone that I

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Speaker 2: talk to lisl about, but you know, sometimes I just

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Speaker 2: want people to listen or to recognize that, you know,

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Speaker 2: missing people affect everybody in society. It's not just you know,

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Speaker 2: the immediate families and their friends, but it is the

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Speaker 2: whole of society, you know. It's it's the fabric of

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Speaker 2: society that missing people, you know, affect. And as I

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Speaker 2: said to you in a previous conversation, you know, society.

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Speaker 2: I look at society as a bolt of fabric that's

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Speaker 2: got different weaves in it, and missing people are one

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Speaker 2: of those threads. And if you don't have that thread,

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Speaker 2: then that fabric pattern isn't complete. You're missing a thread.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's not like you can suddenly find

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Speaker 2: out it's a pulled thread and fix it up. And yep,

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Speaker 2: in some cases that happens. And I am so happy

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Speaker 2: for those families that do find their missing loved ones,

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Speaker 2: but there are also quite a number of us that don't,

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Speaker 2: and you know, realistically never will.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard, isn't it. It's very hard to come

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Speaker 1: to terms with that. We're going to talk about the

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Speaker 1: murder trial with Liesel's case. Before we do, just describe

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Speaker 1: the type of person Lisel was. She was twenty three

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Speaker 1: years old where she disappeared.

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Speaker 2: She was her own person, she liked her own company.

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Speaker 2: She was just doing life like any other twenty three

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Speaker 2: year old, you know, making mistakes, you know, making good choices,

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Speaker 2: making bad choices, you know, working out what she wanted

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Speaker 2: to do as a job, whether that was for the

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Speaker 2: rest of her life or you know, for six months

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Speaker 2: until you know, she found something else she wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was working, she was working it out,

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Speaker 2: you know, like any other twenty three most twenty three

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Speaker 2: year olds.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a great time of life, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: You're old enough to make the mistakes, but you've also

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Speaker 1: got some control on your life, and it's an exciting

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Speaker 1: time of life as twenty five now.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind being twenty three again, but that's never going.

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Speaker 1: To happen if we work out the war and the

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Speaker 1: clock back. Yeah, I'll keep the wisdom.

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Speaker 3: I'll keep the wisdom, thanks, but I'll take the rewinding age.

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Speaker 1: I think we could sell that to a few people.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure we could.

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Speaker 1: Okay, experits of a murder trial and I've been to

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Speaker 1: countless murder trials and I've got to say they're emotionally

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Speaker 1: and physically draining. I'd never come out at the end

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Speaker 1: of a murder trial the same as I went into it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just city a police officer involved on the perif.

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Speaker 1: I can't even fathom how much it drains. You been

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Speaker 1: a family member going through a murder trial? Do you

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Speaker 1: want to talk us through the whole process?

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Speaker 2: So I got informed that I would be subpoenaed to

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Speaker 2: give evidence at the trial and got served with a

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Speaker 2: subpoena that was arranged. I was warned, which was good

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Speaker 2: because I could warn work that I was required because

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Speaker 2: I worked for State Health Service. There are requirements about

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Speaker 2: when I'm subpoena, like when I was subpoened that I

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Speaker 2: had to inform certain.

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Speaker 3: People and whatnot.

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Speaker 2: So I was forewarned and I spoke to the barristers

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Speaker 2: a couple of times before I got on the stand.

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Speaker 2: They did their best to me, which I found really helpful,

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Speaker 2: and they were very understanding that, you know, that's something

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Speaker 2: else that wasn't you know, it was never on my

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Speaker 2: bucket list. So I was always, you know, always worried

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Speaker 2: about going to coroner's court for work and not probably

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Speaker 2: have nothing to worry about that in that regard. So

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Speaker 2: they did their best to sort of prep what they

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Speaker 2: would ask and what they were going to question me about.

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Speaker 2: Obviously they couldn't tell me what the defense was going

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Speaker 2: to ask. They also had told me a few months

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Speaker 2: previously when this was moving through the courts. So as

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Speaker 2: you would know, with a homicide charge, it moves through

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Speaker 2: the local and the district courts first, and then an

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Speaker 2: application is made to the Supreme Court to have the

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Speaker 2: charge heard in the Supreme Court. All those unaware, it's

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Speaker 2: a very long process. And in the midst of this process,

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Speaker 2: COVID had hit, so we had a delay of I

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Speaker 2: think about six to eight months because everything just shut down,

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Speaker 2: which certainly didn't help.

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Speaker 1: It adds to the trauma.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly didn't help because you want things to regress.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, it was a world wide pandemic,

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Speaker 2: so you know, yet something else that's out of your

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Speaker 2: control that you can't do anything about. And so I

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Speaker 2: knew that the judge was, you know, was pretty She

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Speaker 2: was strict but fair, and I have nothing but the

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Speaker 2: utmost praise for Justice Fullerton. So I was subpoened. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't listen to the first two weeks of the trial

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Speaker 2: because I was a.

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Speaker 1: Witness, which explain that to people, because again most people

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Speaker 1: don't get experience in her criminal courts, especially the murder trial.

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Speaker 1: But if you're a witness in a murder trial, regardless

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Speaker 1: of your relationship to the victim or your involvement, until

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Speaker 1: you've given evidence, you're excluded from the court. You can't

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Speaker 1: go in there and understood why you can't hear other

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Speaker 1: people give evidence before you give your evidence. But that

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Speaker 1: then itself can be very frustrating. I've been in charge

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Speaker 1: of murder investigations where I've had to sit I'm virtually

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Speaker 1: the last witness, so I've had to sit outside the

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Speaker 1: whole trial of matter that you've invested years in two

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Speaker 1: and not knowing what's going on. I'm mainly the police officer.

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Speaker 1: You're a family member. How frustrating was it sitting outside

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Speaker 1: while the murder trial for your sister was going on.

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Speaker 3: I actually had.

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Speaker 2: To do my evidence via AVL audio visual. I had

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Speaker 2: had some health problems and had required surgery and I

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Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to fly. So originally the defendants lawyer had

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Speaker 2: wanted me up in Sydney in person, so I don't

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Speaker 2: live in New South Wales, and there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of toing and frowing about me going up there, and

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Speaker 2: in the end I had to get a letter from

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Speaker 2: the specialist saying that I was not medically cleared to fly,

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Speaker 2: and Justice Fullerton went, that's it, She's doing it via

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Speaker 2: audio visual, which was done at one of the court

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Speaker 2: houses in the capital city I live in.

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Speaker 3: The biggest issue was the dates.

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Speaker 2: Kept changing, so I think there was like one or

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Speaker 2: two dates. Initially we were given a date and then

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Speaker 2: that was changed because they didn't get through witnesses or

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Speaker 2: there was some sort of discussion between the barristers and

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Speaker 2: the judge and then it got changed again. And it

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Speaker 2: was frustrating because you know, we've got kids.

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Speaker 3: I was trying to get time off work.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to like a doctor's surgery. They line up

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Speaker 1: about ten patients that they know they can the same day,

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Speaker 1: in the same hour, and that's what they do with witnesses.

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Speaker 1: So I do understand. Yeah, your frustration. That is the

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Speaker 1: nature of the justice system in the courts always got

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Speaker 1: to have them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was explained to me. That I wasn't left hanging.

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Speaker 2: I was explained we didn't get through everyone, you know,

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Speaker 2: evidence took longer today, and I was like, okay, cool,

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Speaker 2: and that I didn't have a problem with that necessarily

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Speaker 2: because I was kept in the loop of what was

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Speaker 2: going on, and I was like, yep, fine. And then

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Speaker 2: finally they cemented in a date and a time and

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Speaker 2: I had to basically sit in a room. The only

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Speaker 2: person who I could see was the judge and the

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Speaker 2: defense lawyer and the two barristers. I couldn't see the

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Speaker 2: defendant or anybody else in the courtroom, which in all

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Speaker 2: honesty was completely fine with me. I gave evidence. Justice

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Speaker 2: Fullerton was very thorough and there are a couple of

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Speaker 2: instances where I think.

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Speaker 3: She realized that I.

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Speaker 2: Possibly not didn't quite understand what was being asked, and

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Speaker 2: so she clarified for me, which was very appreciated. I was.

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Speaker 3: I gave evidence, I think.

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Speaker 2: For just under two hours, and the DPP were very good.

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Speaker 2: You know, they covered what they had said that they

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Speaker 2: would cover, so I was prepared for that. And then

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Speaker 2: the defense lawyer started and some of the questions that

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Speaker 2: he asked I just found completely in a and irrelevant.

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Speaker 2: But it's not my job to work out why he

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Speaker 2: was asking those questions. I answered as best as I could.

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Speaker 2: Towards the end, I got frustrated and didn't lose my temper,

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Speaker 2: but my frustration showed, and I remember sitting there, you know,

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Speaker 2: feeling like I'd run a marathon. I had tried to

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Speaker 2: keep myself calm, you know, and recognize that you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing this to help with my sister. You know,

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Speaker 2: I can't get emotional, I can't get frustrated. But he

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Speaker 2: kept hammering home one particular point, and in the end

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Speaker 2: I just turned around and snapped at him, for want

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Speaker 2: of a better word, and then that was the end

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Speaker 2: of questioning. I was excused. I remember just getting up

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Speaker 2: and going as soon as I was excused, because my

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Speaker 2: understanding was that once you're excused. If they want you

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Speaker 2: back in court, they have to recipoena you, so I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to give them any time to do that.

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Speaker 2: And then smart play, Yeah, I flared out of the Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In some ways, I felt a sense of relief and

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Speaker 2: like a way to being lifted off my shoulders because

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Speaker 2: I could now find out what was going on. I

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Speaker 2: could listen to the evidence. They had to apply to

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Speaker 2: the judge to get clearance for me to be able

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Speaker 2: to and she gave that. I think it was about

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Speaker 2: a week before I felt like I could sit there

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Speaker 2: and listen to what was being said in court.

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Speaker 1: So they set up facility for an AVL for you

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Speaker 1: to listen to the form.

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Speaker 2: They email you a link that you can link into

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Speaker 2: and they you know, you have to log in and

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Speaker 2: they obviously realize who it is and then off you go.

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Speaker 3: That was horrendous.

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Speaker 2: The thing that really got me is that they were

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Speaker 2: discussing Lisel and the things that were said about her,

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Speaker 2: in particular.

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Speaker 3: By the defense.

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Speaker 2: I know that the defense lawyer was doing a job

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Speaker 2: that he was being paid to do, but it's still

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Speaker 2: not nice to hear certain things said, regardless of whether

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Speaker 2: they are true or not, about a family member, as

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know people that have experienced this can appreciate.

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Speaker 2: And I guess the bier sense of injustice at that

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Speaker 2: point for me was that Liseel had no way of

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Speaker 2: defending herself against against.

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Speaker 3: What was being said.

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Speaker 2: You know, in if any of half of what was

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Speaker 2: said was said in a public domain or on Facebook

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Speaker 2: or any other social media, you could go after someone

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Speaker 2: for defamation, you know, and what not, on slander and

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Speaker 2: everything else. And you know, this is in a criminal court,

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Speaker 2: and they can basically say what they like about the person,

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Speaker 2: you know, in this case, my.

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Speaker 1: Sister, And it is hard for loved ones that with

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Speaker 1: victims that And you've nailed the point. She's not there

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Speaker 1: to defend herself, so they can throw speculative comments up

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Speaker 1: about the type of person she is or things that

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Speaker 1: might have been done, and she's not there to defend

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Speaker 1: her self. So I can understand how painful that would

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Speaker 1: be for a loved one to watch that play out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it basically felt like it was a free for all,

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Speaker 2: you know, open slather on her, and that was really

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Speaker 2: frustrating and quite upsetting a number of times. Some of

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Speaker 2: the things that were said, especially by the defense defense lawyer,

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Speaker 2: and as I said, I understand he's got a job

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Speaker 2: to do. And that's from what I understand. That's whey

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Speaker 2: criminal court.

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Speaker 1: Is you know exactly well, it's an adversarial system and

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Speaker 1: that is the way that matters are adjudicated. Can I

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Speaker 1: just to put it in context so people understand, and

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Speaker 1: we won't go through all the evidence, but just in

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Speaker 1: context the basic summary of the trial. So in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: Lisal left house one day to drive to Tugara train station,

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Speaker 1: parked a car, and then a witness saw her getting

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Speaker 1: into another white uit. It was the last time she

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Speaker 1: was seen alive. She was a missing person for six years,

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Speaker 1: never found a body. Everything pointed to Jim Church, an

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Speaker 1: older neighbor who was a local horse trainer. Rumors were

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Speaker 1: Lisal had an affair with him, got pregnant, and he

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Speaker 1: killed her. Her body has not been found. Now that's

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Speaker 1: a very brief description of the type of allegation. It's

303
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Speaker 1: not going into the full facts of the matter, but

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Speaker 1: just so people when we're talking about understand what was

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Speaker 1: going on with this trial, because the trial ran for

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Speaker 1: our correct me if I'm wrong thirteen and a half

307
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 1: weeks seventy days. Yep, it was a judge alone trial.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was.

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Speaker 1: My understanding, is that explained to you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it basically meant that it was the judge and

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Speaker 2: the judge alone who heard all the evidence, heard all

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Speaker 2: the arguments, and you know, made rulings on what could

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Speaker 2: or couldn't be submitted and whatnot. There was no jury whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: My understanding is usually there's a choice. You can have

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Speaker 2: a judge and a jury, or you can have a

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Speaker 2: judge loan trial. The option, as far as I understood,

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Speaker 2: wasn't given in this case because of COVID, so, which

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Speaker 2: is to me, neither here nor there.

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Speaker 1: So, Yeah, during the course of the trial, you're listening

320
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Speaker 1: to it. You've got over the time period where you

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Speaker 1: were excluded from the court, You've given your evidence, and

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Speaker 1: now you're starting to listen to the trial. How did

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Speaker 1: you think the trial was going.

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Speaker 2: I kept an open mind because as in as everyone

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Speaker 2: knows in this country, you know, you have the right

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Speaker 2: to be presumed innocent until found guilty in a court

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Speaker 2: of law. And in some ways I wanted to listen

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Speaker 2: to bear witness for Lisel. That was how I felt,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to hear what the evidence was with

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Speaker 2: my own ears. There are a number of witnesses that

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Speaker 2: were expert witnesses on like phone towers and roadworks and

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Speaker 2: you know all these other bits and pieces that were

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00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 2: crucial to the case for the DPP. And what I

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00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,200
Speaker 2: found really good was that Justice Fullerton, if she wasn't

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00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 2: clear on something, she got the person who was in

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Speaker 2: the stand at the time to clarify so that she

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00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 2: completely understood what the evidence they were giving was about,

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Speaker 2: which I know was very helpful. As the trial progressed

339
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 2: and more and more witnesses were gone through, I started

340
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 2: forming my own opinion, and I think the crux of

341
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:54,160
Speaker 2: it came towards the end when both my stepdad and

342
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 2: the defendant were called to give evidence along with By

343
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Speaker 2: this stage the police interviews with the defendant had been played.

344
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 2: I think they're about five or six. So you just

345
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 2: saw the only way to eliminate this thread was to

346
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Speaker 2: murder Lusel anyway.

347
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Speaker 1: For what you don't know is that Lucil was never

348
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Speaker 1: bringing up.

349
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Speaker 2: That's a difference to me.

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Speaker 1: We believe he murdered Lusel in the world right. We

351
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Speaker 1: believe that her remains are located in the Hunter and

352
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Speaker 1: we want to know where she is.

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Speaker 3: I haven't murdered a run. I don't know where she is.

354
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Speaker 3: I certainly don't own a gun.

355
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Speaker 2: I've never murdered anyone. I said to the arrises for

356
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Speaker 2: the DPAP at one stage, I'm surprised they didn't hear

357
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 2: me yelling at the computer from interstate because I was

358
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Speaker 2: just so incredulous about what the defendant had said. You know,

359
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 2: in regards to Lisel, the way that he spoke about

360
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Speaker 2: her and the person he was with at the time,

361
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Speaker 2: who was apparently the love of his life was just disgusting,

362
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Speaker 2: you know. And the way that he presented himself in

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Speaker 2: court verse is what he said when he thought no

364
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,919
Speaker 2: one was listening, was a very stark contrast.

365
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 1: This was the covit evidence was gathered through listening devices

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Speaker 1: or phone taps.

367
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,679
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so there were listening devices planted in his

368
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 2: parents house where there were conversations recorded between his parents

369
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 2: and his sister as well as him. They planted listening

370
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Speaker 2: devices in his I think his car and in his house,

371
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:31,480
Speaker 2: and there had also been intercepts picked up between him

372
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Speaker 2: and other witnesses. So basically he had an outright asked

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Speaker 2: people to lie for him.

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Speaker 3: To provide an alibi, but.

375
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Speaker 2: He had said, oh, you know, you stick with the story,

376
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Speaker 2: and once those had been disproven, you know, my understanding

377
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 2: was that he really had nowhere to go with, you know,

378
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 2: explaining where he'd been. Phones had been turned off and

379
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,199
Speaker 2: then turned on, and he was like, oh, but I was,

380
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,119
Speaker 2: you know, at my girlfriend's house at the time, and

381
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 2: they said, okay, fine, you know, but she's wrung immobile

382
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 2: and you know, everyone's done the thing where, you know,

383
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 2: I can't find a mobile, can you ring it for me?

384
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: Sort of thing.

385
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 2: But she'd also rung his landline as well, and it

386
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: showed when they had telecommunication experts coming that he'd actually

387
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 2: turned his phone off until like one one point thirty

388
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Speaker 2: or something in the morning.

389
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 1: It was on the crucial time.

390
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 2: On the crucial time. The other thing was that up

391
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 2: until the nineteenth of August, he and Lisal I think,

392
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: in the course of four to six weeks or something

393
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 2: had exchanged nearly two thousand text messages. I think it

394
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 2: was like eighteen hundred, just over eighteen hundred, you know, contacts,

395
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 2: And the nineteenth of August came and went was literally like.

396
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 3: It had dropped off a cliff.

397
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 2: There was nothing. He didn't text her, he didn't message her,

398
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 2: he didn't ring her to find out if she was Okay,

399
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: you know, I know I'm not the only one that

400
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 2: messaged or tried to contact her. There was nothing from

401
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: his phone.

402
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: Okay, well, yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty telling. And

403
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 1: I look, and I'm talking in the general sense here,

404
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: want to clarify that. But if I'm looking and there's

405
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 1: just someone disappears and then the person that's meaning constant

406
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 1: contact doesn't contact, that person, makes you ask questions. Tell

407
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 1: me with the detail there, like the way that you're

408
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: describing it, and we should explain or disclaim here. This

409
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 1: is just the observations of a trial that your witnessed.

410
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: So we're not saying going through facts detail by detail.

411
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: We're just your observations. Seems to be a thorough investigation.

412
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: Let's wind it back when you're frustration with the police,

413
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,160
Speaker 1: if the communication was better, like I would suggest, you're

414
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 1: looking at the investigation now and it was playing out

415
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: in the trial that you think, okay, well, they were

416
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 1: working on it. Does it change your view on your

417
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,719
Speaker 1: dealing with the dealings with the police.

418
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: I think they'd obviously put a number of resources and

419
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 2: a lot of time into the investigation. At the trial,

420
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 2: they were there along with their wives, which I was

421
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: very appreciative of, given how much time that this has

422
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 2: taken up of their lives. You know, it wouldn't just

423
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 2: be it's not a nine to five job.

424
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 1: No should pushed that for a very long time.

425
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: So I was very appreciative that they came along to

426
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 2: see see the outcome. I don't I give credit to

427
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 2: how much work and resources was put in. I just

428
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 2: feel that if they had have explained that at the start,

429
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: you know, and just had that compassion and that empathy

430
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: in humanity, at least in their dealings with me. I

431
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 2: can't speak for their dealings with anybody else. Yeah, I

432
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: feel that I probably would have had a different view,

433
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: and I would have a different view now. I still

434
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 2: view it as you know, they really could have done

435
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: it better, and you know, not necessarily treated me with

436
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: key gloves, but not treated me the way that they did,

437
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 2: you know. I just I felt that that was unwarranted

438
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: and undeserved, and if they had have changed the way

439
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 2: or you know, approached the way that they interacted with

440
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 2: me on a different angle, and I guess expressed understanding.

441
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: You know that I was frustrated, you know what's going on,

442
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 2: and explained, as I said earlier, you know, we are working,

443
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: but we can't explain what we're doing at the moment.

444
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: I think things may have been a lot easier for

445
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 2: me to some degree in that I would have understand

446
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 2: understood that they were working. Yeah, at the trial, they

447
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 2: had put a lot of work into their case. You know,

448
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: proving time. You know how long it took to drive

449
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: from point A to point B. You know why it

450
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: was impossible that he said he was here when his

451
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: car was you know, he was at point C, when

452
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 2: his car was at point D, et cetera. And all

453
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you know, the case was built around

454
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence that was quite strong.

455
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: Because there was no evidences presented where Liesl's body is.

456
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: That Lisel's body wasn't recovered, so there's no evidence presented there, No,

457
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: there's nothing. You're you've been watching the trial now for

458
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: ten eleven weeks. At the end of the trial, the

459
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: prosecution would have summed up and the defense would have

460
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: summed up and pulling together all the evidence that's gone by.

461
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: How did you feel did you were you when I

462
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: say confident, confident being they show me the result that

463
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: you were seeking would be that the person was convicted.

464
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: Were you confident that he would be found guilty?

465
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: I will be honest and say I certainly hope that

466
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: he would be From my personal observations, I couldn't see

467
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 2: how any other verdict could be reached. You know, there

468
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: were huge gaps in things that he said, and the

469
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 2: way you know, he tried to explain certain things away

470
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: just made absolutely no logical sense. You know, it may

471
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: have made sense to him, but you know it certainly

472
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 2: didn't make sense to me. And from some of the

473
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 2: questions that the judge had asked, I got the impression

474
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: that she was trying to work out how it made

475
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: sense as well. I didn't know what the judge would

476
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: come to down with, and this was a discussion between

477
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: my husband and I. Actually he said, you know what

478
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: if he is found guilty, and I said, look, you

479
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: know I'm not the judge. I don't have that legal backing.

480
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: You know, she has nothing to do with the case.

481
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: And that's the whole point of the legal system in Australia.

482
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 2: You know, you bring forth your argument, you argue on

483
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: the basis of your evidence as to what you think

484
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 2: has happened, and then you know, the judge retires to

485
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: make a verdict on the basis of points of law

486
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: that you know they've spent god knows how long you know,

487
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: understanding and applying and that's what should happen. If it

488
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: had have come back not guilty, I would not have

489
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: necessarily agreed with her. But at the same point, I'm

490
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 2: not a Supreme Court judge. You know, I don't have

491
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 2: to apply the law, and in all honesty, I would

492
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: never want that responsibility because you're making judgments about people's

493
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: lives for all you know, intents and purposes. You're either

494
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: you know, sentencing them to jail for whatever period of

495
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: time you may deem relevant at some point, or you're

496
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 2: setting them free. And on the flip side, you know

497
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 2: you have a family, you know that may or not

498
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: agree with what you come up with. You know, that's

499
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: a huge responsibility.

500
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: Gerald. Just in what you've said there, I think you're

501
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: showing what a fair and objective person you are, even

502
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: when you're looking at a trial like that. So yeah,

503
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: it says a lot about a lot about you as

504
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: a person that you can offer that opinion when you're

505
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: talking about a murder trial relating to your sister. You

506
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: got notified that the verdict was going to be handed down,

507
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,239
Speaker 1: and I think the date that was set was the

508
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: eighth of July twenty and twenty two. What went through

509
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: your mind when you knew a date was going to

510
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: be set, when the judge was going to come back

511
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: with a guilty or not guilty verdict?

512
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: Not a lot.

513
00:26:54,359 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: Initially, Funnily enough, we were we were driving coming up

514
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: to see my in laws when we got the I

515
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 2: think it.

516
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 3: Was a message to say that the judge had set

517
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: a date.

518
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: We'd asked for a date because obviously, living into state,

519
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: we had to organize work schedules and flights and whatnot.

520
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 3: And I think I was just in shock.

521
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: That, you know, at this stage it had been.

522
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: Just on a month.

523
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: Actually, I think it was a month to the day

524
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: when we got told that the judge was ready to

525
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: hand down her verdict. We duks for a week's notice

526
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: and she gave us five days. Originally I think it

527
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: was going to be forty eight hours. Yeah, in some

528
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: ways I wish it had a been forty eight hours,

529
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: but I don't necessarily think that would have changed anything

530
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: that happened afterwards, and so it was a mad scramble

531
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 2: to organize flights and whatnot. And I don't think I

532
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 2: actually processed anything, and I hadn't up until the day before,

533
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: I think, just because so much needed to be organized.

534
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: You know, I still had to go to work.

535
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: You were going up there to see the judge handed

536
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: down the findings.

537
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: That was y yep.

538
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: I would not have missed that for the world. I

539
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: couldn't be there during the trial physically, you know, other responsibilities,

540
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, during that thing called life. But I was

541
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: definitely going to be there for the verdict.

542
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: And then this roadblock, this thing that I've never heard

543
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: of in all my time in policing. At such a

544
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: crucial stage, you get notified that the person that was

545
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: charged with your sister's murder and had been the accused

546
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: in the thirteen and a half week trial, the judge

547
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: was going to hand down her findings on the eighth

548
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: of July, and on the seventh of July, he killed himself.

549
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that phone call.

550
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: I don't think I'll forget that as long as I live.

551
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: I was at work, I think I was like two

552
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: hours into a shift. I was working in recovery at

553
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: this stage. I'd had to leave ICU because of the

554
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: stress of what was going on with the trial. And then,

555
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: you know, ic use a high acuity area. As I've mentioned,

556
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: I couldn't do both. I had nothing left, so I

557
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: moved to another area where I could use those skills,

558
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: but it wasn't, as you know, emotionally demanding.

559
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: And I remember.

560
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,239
Speaker 2: I had my phone in my pocket because we were

561
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: trying to organize flights and you know, and bits and pieces,

562
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: and it rang, and I remember pulling it out of

563
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: my pocket, out of my scrubs and thinking, oh, that

564
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: number looks odd and I don't know what it was,

565
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: but I was like, I've got to answer this. So

566
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: I worked, walked around the corner from the nurse's desk

567
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: where it was semi private, and answered the phone. And

568
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: it was the social worker attached to the case, and

569
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: she asked me if I was at worker at home.

570
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: I said, no, no, I'm at work, and she's like, oh,

571
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: there's been a development. And I remember saying he played guilty.

572
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: I mean I would have fallen over, you know, because

573
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: I was adamant that there was no way he was

574
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: going to change his PLA, which had been not guilty,

575
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: and he was very adamant that he hadn't done it

576
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: the entire way through the trial and she went no,

577
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: and I'm like, okay, so you know, I think I

578
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: said something else and she was like no. She said, look,

579
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: is there any way that you can get on a

580
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: video conference call? This was at about ten ten thirty

581
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: in the morning, and I said, I'm at work and

582
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: she said, oh, what time do you finish? And I

583
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: was like, well five, but like, what's going on? She said, Oh,

584
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: I don't really want to tell you. And I just said,

585
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: you've got to tell me. I said, like, I need

586
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: to focus for what I do. If you don't tell me,

587
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to focus, and that

588
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: potentially puts, you know, my patients at risk because I'm

589
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: going to be wondering what's going on. And she said,

590
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: let me just dial in the two barristers. So she

591
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: did that and she said, oh. They got on the

592
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: phone and you know, asked me how it was and stuff,

593
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: and they said, oh, there's been a notification at the

594
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: defendant's house. There's been an ambulance and the police called

595
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: of a deceased body and I do believe the entire

596
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: word of mother f came out of my mouth loudly, understand.

597
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: And I remember just saying like, are you serious and

598
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: they said, yeah, we're waiting on confirmation. We can't get

599
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: in touch with your step dad. We're trying to at

600
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: the moment. And I was like okay, and they said,

601
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, are you able to set something up so

602
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: that we can talk to you, you know, face to

603
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: face through zoom And I.

604
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 3: Said, leave it with me.

605
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: I'll have a chat to my bosses and I'll get

606
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: back in touch and they said yep. I walked around

607
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: to my in charge and said, I've got a codo

608
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: like our nursunit manager. So my big boss's office, I

609
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: remember walking in there and I saw one of the

610
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: other a and ums from anesthetics. So anesthetics is sitter recoveries.

611
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: When you wake up.

612
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 2: And I remember walking there and just asking where my

613
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: boss was because she knew, and I remember just shaking,

614
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: and they were like, oh, no, she's at a meeting.

615
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: And I'm like, can you please ring her? And I

616
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: think the look on my face they just went yeah, sure,

617
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: and they said, I do want me to tell her

618
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: what's about and I said, just tell her it's Geraldine

619
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: and she needs to come here, and so he very

620
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: kindly rang her. She turned up five minutes later. I

621
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: rang matt in that time. He had been in town

622
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: and was on the way home and basically did a YUI.

623
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: I was like, I can't drive home, Matthew if I

624
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: if I get into the car, I'm going to have

625
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: an accident. You know, I just I'm in no shape

626
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: to drive. So he did a UI and came back

627
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: in and my boss had come back at that point,

628
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: and I had quickly explained to her what had happened,

629
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm out for the shift,

630
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: and she was like, not a problem. My husband turned

631
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: up in theater cat booties and a theater gown that

632
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: was two sizes too small for him.

633
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 3: Because we're in theater you have to be in scrubs.

634
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: But you know, I just he just looked utterly ridiculous.

635
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: God love him.

636
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: And she set up Microsoft teams and we had a

637
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: discussion with the barristers. They were in the midst of

638
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: going through all the legal cases in Australia where anything

639
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: like this had happened, and they were of the opinion

640
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: that as far as they knew, there was nothing, and

641
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: they ended up having to go back to British common law,

642
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: so back through Britain or the UK's legal cases as

643
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: well to see if any increased it and being sent there. Yep,

644
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: it's never happened before and as the law currently stands,

645
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: as was explained to us at the time and again

646
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: just before we got the verdict, they were pretty confident

647
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: that we would not get a verdict because the law

648
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: as it currently stands in New South Wales does not

649
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: allow for a verdict to be handed down where the

650
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: defendant has died, no matter what stage of the proceedings

651
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: you were in. So even though it was less than

652
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: twenty four hours that this occurred.

653
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 3: The law was the law.

654
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: Now, so many things to unpack you that, how did

655
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: that make you feel that you weren't the verdict that

656
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: you've been waiting for, the decision getting some ants as

657
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: perhaps some answer is about what happened to your sister,

658
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: just taking the word from you like that, how did

659
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: it make you feel?

660
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 3: Initially?

661
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: I was hoping against hope that we would still get

662
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: a verdict because to me rationally it was like, well,

663
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: we've just been through a thirteen and a half week trial,

664
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: the evidence has been examined, the judge has already written

665
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: her verdict. You know, the defendant participated how he wanted

666
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: to within that trial, and you know, nothing was going

667
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 2: to change the verdict that she had written in you know,

668
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: twenty four hours before it was due to be handed down,

669
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: you know, and then I remember feeling really angry because

670
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: I felt like this was a final if you not

671
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: just to the family I grew up with, and the

672
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: judge and the legal system, but most of all to Lisel.

673
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: You know, he didn't want to be held accountable. He

674
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: didn't want to be held responsible, and you know, I

675
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: think he's a coward. He didn't want to face the prospect,

676
00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: you know.

677
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: Of what.

678
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: One of the possibilities was all, you know, and I

679
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: think it was a power play, you know, that he

680
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: still had control. He was out on bail the entire time,

681
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: apart from I think a couple of months where he

682
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: was held in remand. And the judge ruled that, you know,

683
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: because how long it was expected before we were to

684
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: go to trial and the length of the trial, that

685
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: it was unfair to keep him in jail. And it

686
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: was raised by the DPAP that they had considered asking

687
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: for him to be held in remand, but there was

688
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: no you know, there was no justifiable reason to put

689
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: him into remand. Prior to the trial. He turned up

690
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: every day. He you know, had surrendered his passport that

691
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: was part of the conditions. There was nothing to indicate

692
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: that he would not turn up to the verdict being read.

693
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: You know, they had no justifiable reason. I understand the logic,

694
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: you know, I just.

695
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: I just remember.

696
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: Hoping against hope that there would be something that would

697
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: let us get a verdicts of what that verdict was,

698
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: the only thing that we didn't get is something called

699
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: a theory of tendency because, as the judge explained, if

700
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: she ruled us to whether it basically came down to

701
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: whether she accepted his or not his alibi, but his

702
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: version of events or not. And it was a very

703
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: short walk, as she said, from there to work out

704
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: whether she felt he was guilty or not guilty.

705
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: Right, So she didn't articulate that during the trial or

706
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: during her closing address.

707
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: No, because it was so tied up with the verdict

708
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: that you yeah, so there were both things that we

709
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: didn't get.

710
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: I I'll bring you back to earlier on in the podcast,

711
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: you said you have absolutely no criticism of the judge,

712
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: Justice Fulton in the matter, in the way that was

713
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: conducted the trial, not at all.

714
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: If anything, I felt when she was reading out why

715
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: she couldn't give us a verdict, that she was as

716
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: empathetic and compassionate as she possibly could be. She recognized

717
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: that you know, a number of family had traveled from interstate,

718
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: and that she hoped She did say that she hoped

719
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: that we could understand that the law simply did not

720
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: allow her to give the verdict. I think, and this

721
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: is my personal observation from sitting in the courtroom, I

722
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 2: think she was just as frustrated and angry that this

723
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: had occurred as you know, as what everyone else was.

724
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: I've got a quote from her from what she said

725
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: after it, and this is from Justice Fullton. Because of

726
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: mister Church's death yesterday, which brought his trial to an end,

727
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: I cannot announce my verdict today. I want to assure

728
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: Miss Smith's many friends and many members of her family

729
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: that the law simply does not allow me to publicly

730
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: announce it or to publish the very lengthy reasons which

731
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: were ready to be published clearly, I can hear the

732
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: frustration in her in what she's saying them, the empathy

733
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: and everything else that we've talked about to me, and

734
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: let's yeah, you're a very balanced and objective in what

735
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: you're saying. But you brought it back to the point

736
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: that it's been through the trial. The trial had finished

737
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, and it was a verdict

738
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: to be handed down. The fact that it's never or

739
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: they couldn't find any law, common law or anything to

740
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: refer to and had to keep digging back. It is

741
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: such an unusual situation. I haven't seen it in my time.

742
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: The closest I've come to anything like this was a

743
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: person that I was looking at for his wife surprisingly

744
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: disappeared ten years before, and he reported it. Then his

745
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: business partner disappeared. I became involved in the investigation. When

746
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: he reported his business partner having disappeared. It looked suspicious

747
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: to me. That's the second person that's disappeared in his life.

748
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: Then the wife had disappeared ten years earlier. We started

749
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: investigating that matter. We charged him with some drug relay defences.

750
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: He skipped to into state. We brought him back and

751
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: we got a warrant and brought him back to New

752
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: South Wales. He was in custody, he was notified that

753
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: I was coming out to speak to him about the murders,

754
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: and he killed himself in prison and left a nate.

755
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: But there was I felt so bad for the family,

756
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: the wife's family, because they were looking for answers. They've

757
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: never found their loved one's body, and they were hoping

758
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: that if these charges, which looked like they were going

759
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: to be laid, might give them answers. And I know

760
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: how cheated they felt. But that matter was referred to

761
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: the coroner, or his death was referred to the coroner,

762
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: and from my memory that's going back probably fifteen or

763
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: more years, that the coroner made a comment that, based

764
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 1: on the information, the most likely likely scenario is that

765
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: he took his own life, but he was also involved

766
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: in the disappearance of the two people. Doesn't give you

767
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: a definitive answer that it helps to a degree. Is

768
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 1: that something that you think could work with your situation?

769
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: What recourse do you want?

770
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: I think something at this point in time is better

771
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: than nothing. You know, thirteen and a half weeks of

772
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: a huge emotional impact that still has ramifications and consequences

773
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: on me and my family today. I remember when the

774
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: judge was reading this out. You know, I just sat

775
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: there and stared at her. I'm sure she thought I

776
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 2: was giving her a death stare, but I actually had tears.

777
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 3: Rolling down my face.

778
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I just something, you know, because at

779
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: this point we've got nothing. We've got nothing. We don't

780
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: have any idea where Leathal is. She could be anywhere

781
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: between the Central coasts and the Upper Hunter Valley. You

782
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: know that's a couple of hundred square kilometers.

783
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just.

784
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: I understand that.

785
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't have the right to appeal because

786
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: of what he did. But as I said, you know,

787
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 2: something's better than nothing, and at the moment, you know,

788
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 2: anything's better than what we've got, which is nada.

789
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: And I believe his legal team spoke out on his

790
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 1: behalf and said, look, he shouldn't be the verdict hasn't

791
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: been handed down, so he's not a convicted murderer, and

792
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: pushed that aspect of it. You actually reached out to

793
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: the Attorney General, Mark Speakman at the time, and you've

794
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: got a response back, and you kindly pass that on

795
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: to me. I just might read out an extract from

796
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: that and this is response that the Attorney General gave

797
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: to an email sent on the ninth of July twenty

798
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: and twenty two. Please accept my deepest sympathy for the

799
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: tragic loss of your sister and the grief that you

800
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: and your family have endured. I understand the strong sense

801
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: of dissatisfaction you have experienced as a result of the

802
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: conclusion of proceedings. I also understand that you and your

803
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: family sat through many days of evidence hoping for an

804
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 1: outcome and the resolution to the matter that would bring

805
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 1: closure to your family and justice for the lease that

806
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,439
Speaker 1: you would denied that opportunity is a matter about which

807
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: you have every right to feel aggrieved. I appreciate your

808
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: concerns about the current state of the law which preclude

809
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: the judge in this case from delivering her judgment. This

810
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: is a complex matter, and therefore I have to ask

811
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: the Department of Community and Justice to provide me with

812
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,479
Speaker 1: advice on the legal and policy issues involved. I will

813
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: carefully consider the advice in determining whether any form is

814
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: any reform is appropriate to help me to consider the

815
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: issues further. I would welcome any input you have on

816
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: your experience in this case, and would ask you that

817
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: you please contact my executive assistant. That was a response

818
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 1: to an email that you sent to the Attorney General.

819
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: Getting that must have given you some comfort at the

820
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: time that it looks like they're at least looking into it,

821
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: they're taking your concerns seriously.

822
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: Yes and no.

823
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: It's easy to say things and pass commiserations on when

824
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: you know these things haven't happened to you. And it's

825
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 2: easy to express that you understand someone's frustration, as we've

826
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: spoken about before, unless it's actually happened to you. I

827
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: don't think people quite understand the frustration, you know, when

828
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 2: people give you platitudes and then don't follow up with anything.

829
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: I had a teleconference call with him shortly after that

830
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: that was organized. And you know, the Attorney General has

831
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: the ability to change legislation. Yes, I understand that. You know,

832
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: from a legal point, there needs to be a number

833
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: of considerations. You know, you don't want to create loopholes

834
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: where things have to go back to trial, you know,

835
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 2: especially if the legislation is made retrospective so that it

836
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: could apply to Liesl's case, which is what I would

837
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 2: be looking for. And that was all well and good,

838
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: But then I've heard absolutely nothing since that teleconference. I

839
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: have no idea what they've done. I have no idea

840
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: whether they've gone any further than that, you know, and

841
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: I think if it's happened once, it'll happen again. You know.

842
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

843
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. To learn more, visit iycatchkillers dot com

844
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: dot au. If you're a crimex plus subscriber, I hope

845
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: you're enjoying your early and add free access to this podcast.

846
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: We've got heaps of other great news series. One to

847
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: look out for at the moment is Shandy's Legacy, created

848
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: by the term behind your favorite podcast including The Teacher's

849
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 1: Pet and The Teachers Trial. Shandy's Legacy follows the hearings

850
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: into a major public inquiry into the Queensland DNA lab.

851
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: Listen early and ad free at crimex or wherever you

852
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Well, there's some counter arguments if they

853
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: made the legislation. I've been involved in legislation changes on

854
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: different matters. I've been involved in parable murders, double jeopardy legislation,

855
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: and I understand the arguments going backwards and forwards. Eventually

856
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: it was changed. But part of the argument for not

857
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: changing legislation. If we change this, the the sky is

858
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: going to fall everyone's It'll change the very structure of

859
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: our justice system. It was changed and it didn't happen.

860
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 1: This is such a rare occurrence. As the DPP identified

861
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: as said, they can't find case law on it because

862
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: we haven't seen it occur, and we're talking at the

863
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: end of the trial, not during the trial, at the

864
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: very end of the trial. If they made legislation that

865
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: covered that, I don't think it did even have to

866
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: be enacted on very often, but it would prevent what

867
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,240
Speaker 1: you guys have been through with the situation here, simple

868
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: legislation change. I'm not a legal person, clearly, and I'm

869
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: not informed enough to know the changing legislation, But just

870
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: from an observational point of view, I can't see that

871
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: the sky would fall if they made a change to

872
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: find out what the verdict was going to be handed down,

873
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: given that the trial had already concluded, you followed up

874
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: with some letters, again still trying to get answers. There

875
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: was a new Attorney general. Can I'll just read out

876
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: some extracts of more communication that you had with the

877
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: now new Attorney General the day before we receive the

878
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: verdict mister Church committed suicide. This meant, as I'm sure

879
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 1: you are aware, that we're unable to hear the verdict handed

880
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: down as per the current legislation around this. Surely you

881
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: can emphasize how traumatic that was, especially after giving evidence,

882
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: along with everything pertaining to her disappearance over a decade

883
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: now and the ongoing trauma this continues to put us through.

884
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: We have no closure, We have nothing to me that

885
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: comes as a that's pleading on the emotions. Please help us.

886
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: I haven't heard a response at all to that.

887
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: Well, you didn't finish off there. I spoke with your predecessor,

888
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: mister Mark Speakman, who indicated this would go to the

889
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: new South Wales Coroner. After thirteen and a half weeks

890
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: of criminal trial evidence put under the microscope and the

891
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: potential to have to reappear. I'm rather a gast disappointed

892
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: and frustrated, to say the least, not to mention there

893
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: has been nothing from your office, the coroner or the

894
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: DPP to indicate what is happening or moving forward. We

895
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: have no way of recourse. Again frustration, and you haven't

896
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: heard anything back.

897
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: I haven't had a phone call, I haven't had a

898
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: text message, I haven't had an email. I've had absolutely nothing.

899
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: I find it of interest there that they're mentioned in

900
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Coroner. Now, I know we had

901
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 1: this discussion a few days ago. To me, and this

902
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 1: is a very simplistic plan, but I can't see why

903
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: the matter couldn't be referred to the New South Wales Coroner.

904
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: The coroner could get access to Justice Fulton's findings, review

905
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: that with all the other evidence that came out through

906
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: the trial, and perhaps make a finding on what happened

907
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: to Lisel. Now, the role of the coroner is to

908
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: investigate this where the cause is unknown, where there is

909
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: a reason to think that death may not be due

910
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: to natural causes, to determine the identity and the date,

911
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: place and circumstances of the death. To me, and again,

912
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: maybe I'm looking at this too simplistically, but that seems

913
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: to be a solution to this problem. Your thoughts.

914
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: As I said, something's better than nothing. I mean, like

915
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: legislation would be great and I'd be rapped if it

916
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: was changed. You know that that would just be the

917
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: you know, the holy grail, I guess, And you know,

918
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: legislation is so specific, you know, it's it's there in

919
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: black and white. You know, it's very specific to make

920
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: sure that you know, you can't find loopholes. So I'm

921
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: sure that it could be done. Failing that, because you know,

922
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 2: as you said, they're worried the skyfall. I mean, never

923
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: mind that my sky has already fallen. But you know,

924
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 2: a coronial inquest I think would at least hold Jim

925
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: Church to accountability. It's not a conviction, but you know,

926
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 2: it's something, you know, and at this point in time,

927
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: you know we're most likely never going to find where

928
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: Lesa is, you know, and that's devastating, but at least

929
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 2: there would be some accountability, you know, in some sort

930
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: of respect from I guess, like a legal standpoint of view,

931
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: for want of a better phrase.

932
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: Well, I think a legal point of view is that

933
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: at this point you've got zero. It's just up in

934
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: the air. It's like everything's been thrown up in the

935
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: air and the pieces haven't landed and no one's going

936
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: to comment on it, so you're just left wondering. I think,

937
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: if you know, if the best you could get is

938
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: through if a person is in charge with murder. It

939
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: goes before the coroner for the coroner to determine cause, manner,

940
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: and location, time of death, all the details around what's happened.

941
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: But I would hope then there's some accountability, some accountability

942
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: if the coroner came back with a finding, and if

943
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: we need to protect what justice Fulton, we can't just

944
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: hand it out to everyone because he doesn't have the

945
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: he's no longer here. Surely the system could set up

946
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: that the coroner could look at. It doesn't have to

947
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: make all the findings public, but just based on the

948
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 1: information that's contained there, make a very very informed decision.

949
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: Because this matter has already gone through the Supreme Court

950
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: as a murder trial as to what's happened to Lisel

951
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: and the other thing that I see another potential benefit

952
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: here if that is done, I think it would be

953
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: a good opportunity to call out to the media if

954
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: anyone knows anything that might have happened to Lisel. Given

955
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: the circumstances that someone that might have been loyal to

956
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: the accused, now the fact that James Church's deceased might

957
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: decide to come forward, that would be a great platform

958
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: to make an appeal and then my understanding, what every

959
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: family wants when a person's missing a suspected murder is

960
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: to be able to find the body and lay their

961
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: loved one with some respect and dignity.

962
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: That would that would be nice. I don't think that

963
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: leasels remains are probably going to be found in my lifetime,

964
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: which is something that I really struggle with. You know,

965
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: she's my sister. I want her home wherever or however

966
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 2: that looks. And I think that if we have the

967
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: ability to get something from the coroner, I would take that.

968
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 2: You know, people talk about closure. I've had that mentioned

969
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 2: a lot of times to me over the course of this.

970
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 2: There will never be closure, you know. There's no such

971
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 2: thing as closure for anyone who's got a missing person

972
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 2: or a case such as this where you know you

973
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 2: don't know where where your loved one is. I think

974
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 2: there's just more questions. You know, Some questions get answered

975
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 2: and others don't, and you have to work out what's important,

976
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: which is sort of where I'm at as to which

977
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 2: question do you want answered? And so at this point

978
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: in time, you know, i'd take a coroner's in quest,

979
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 2: you know, and I would take whatever you know, the coroner,

980
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: you know, came up with on the basis of you know,

981
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 2: them examining the evidence from Justice Fullerton, because they would

982
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 2: at least allow you know, the ability to process, you know,

983
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: and knowing that in some way, you know, he was

984
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: held accountable. And I'm speaking from from my point of

985
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: view because of what I you know, observed and what

986
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: I think. But I just don't understand why, you know,

987
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: there's been such a lack of response. And as I said,

988
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: it's not a matter of if this happens again, it's

989
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: a matter of when, and no other families.

990
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 3: Should go through this, ye you know, this.

991
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 2: Has completely shattered what was left of the family I

992
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: grew up with. You know, it's certainly had an impact

993
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: on the way that you know, my immediate family, so

994
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 2: my husband and my kids, you don't interact and deal.

995
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: It's been extremely stressful. I've had to leave an area

996
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 2: of my career that I loved doing because emotionally, I

997
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 2: just I had nothing left, you know, which was something

998
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: that I didn't want to do, but there was no

999
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 2: other option for me. And you know, this is something

1000
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 2: that I will be dealing with for the rest of

1001
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 2: my life. And you know, at some point, I'm going

1002
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 2: to have to explain to my daughter, you know, what's

1003
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 2: happened to her aunt, because I'm sure with the Internet

1004
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: that she'll come across it or something will get said

1005
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: and she's going to have questions. And you know, fair enough,

1006
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 2: what I don't understand is the lack of response from

1007
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: the people that can do something about this. You know,

1008
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 2: I've sent two letters. I know that there was quite

1009
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 2: a bit of pressure, but I just don't understand how,

1010
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lack of consideration for responding. I

1011
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: know that they're busy, but everyone's busy. You know, she

1012
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 2: was my sister, she was she belonged to a family,

1013
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: She was here, you know, and I'm sure that if

1014
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 2: this ever happened to any person who you know, is

1015
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 2: in politics or the legal system, you know, they'd move

1016
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: heaven and to get something to happen. I mean, you've

1017
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: seen it with the police force, for example. You know,

1018
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: something happens like one of your own, happens to one

1019
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 2: of your own, and you guys do everything you can

1020
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: to work out what happened, and quite rightly, you know, yeah,

1021
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: I just feel that because it's not one of their own,

1022
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 2: that you know, in some regards it doesn't have as

1023
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: big of an impact, and I'm sure it matters to them,

1024
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: but it doesn't matter as much as if it was

1025
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: one of their family members.

1026
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 3: You know, the law of the laws.

1027
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 2: That we have are supposed to reflect society's values and

1028
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 2: what society holds up as the standard, as an and

1029
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: as being important and the failed they don't. You know,

1030
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: I understand that the way that the legal system is

1031
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 2: geared is that you're innocent to proven guilty, and as

1032
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I get that, but at the

1033
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 2: same time, I think there needs to be in a

1034
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: case like this, a consideration for the victim's family and

1035
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 2: for the person who you know, bore the brunt of

1036
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 2: what happened, which in this case is Leesel.

1037
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 3: You know, she deserves better than apathy, which.

1038
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: Is essentially how I feel that you know, I've gotten

1039
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 2: at this point.

1040
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 3: You know, they're just apathetic. It's sort of.

1041
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: While it was in the media, it was important and

1042
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, we've got to do something. And now

1043
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 2: because it's not front page news anymore, it it doesn't matter.

1044
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: Well, sadly, I've seen it too many times, and you

1045
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: hit on some very good points there. The justice systems

1046
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: there to serve the community, and everyone should be treated

1047
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: equal in the justice system. There shouldn't be a disparity

1048
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: bit about what resources or what things have done because

1049
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: of who the victim is. It shouldn't shouldn't come into it.

1050
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,399
Speaker 1: When you reached out to me to ask, I ask

1051
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: if I could help. I can't bring any skills as

1052
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: a homicide detective to the table, but what I can do,

1053
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: and you have done it. I've just given you a

1054
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: platform to talk, and I hope people are listening. I

1055
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: hope the policy makers are listening to your account of it,

1056
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: because no one could accuse you have been going off

1057
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: just angry and bitter, and you'll never be satisfied. You

1058
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: have been so reasonable, so open, and you've articulated your

1059
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: positions so clearly. I hope people do listen to this

1060
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: and push to make a change, because why you deserve

1061
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: an answer. Your family deserves an answer, lethal deserves an answer,

1062
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: and I think she'd be very proud of what you're

1063
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: doing in her memory and keep fighting to get justice

1064
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: for it. Credit for coming on and telling us your story.

1065
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,919
Speaker 3: Thank you, Garry. It's much appreciated.

1066
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll be in touch and let's find out if

1067
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: people do actually get back to you that have told

1068
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: you that they will get back to you. Let's see

1069
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: if they get back to you now, no worries, Thank you, cheers.

1070
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: I reckon we can get justice for Lisel here. I

1071
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: don't think it's that hard. They could even make a

1072
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: legislative change and hand down the findings of Justice Fulton

1073
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: after trial has been completed, or another way that I

1074
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: think is a very simple way, refer the matter to

1075
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: the coroner, give the coroner access to Justice Fulton's findings,

1076
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: and then the coroner can hand down the decision on

1077
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: what has happened to Lisal Smith. I really appreciate Geraldine

1078
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: Caine coming on the show, and I hope it helps.

1079
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: And I hope the people that said they're going to

1080
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: get back to Geraldine and the family do get back

1081
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: to Geraline. Let's hope we can find some justice for

1082
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: Lui and that n