1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Calls me and he says, men died because of what 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Roger Rogerson did. I don't want to talk over the phone. 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: Come and see me and I'll tell you the whole rotten. 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: Story, Isn't it perfect. 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 3: He's gone down the street and grabbed a willing hooker 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 3: to whack a wig on and played the part for 7 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 3: fifteen minutes. 8 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 2: And where we going? 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: As I say in the book, Philip Western might have 10 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: fired the gun, might have shot the bank manager, but 11 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: Roger loaded the gun. 12 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: He did. 13 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 3: I'm Andrew Rule is his life in crimes. Today we 14 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 3: have a distinguished guest from Sin City. I've long been 15 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 3: a critic of things that come out of Sydney. You know, criminals, police, 16 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: some judges, a few lawyers. But I've never been guilty 17 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 3: of criticizing Sydney journos because I've always found that they 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: were among the best in the business. And one of 19 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 3: the best of the best. I'm forced to say this 20 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 3: because it's true, is Neil Mercer, who is our. 21 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: Guests here today. 22 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 3: As I was saying to him a few minutes ago, 23 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 3: he's one of my few contemporaries. Were both the old 24 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 3: blokes playing in time on Neil mate No, you've distinguished 25 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 3: yourself by writing a new book which is out any 26 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: minute now, called The Kingpin and the Crooked Cop. And 27 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 3: some would think it's a well plowed paddock the stories 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 3: about Roger Rogerson and his mate Neddie Smith. But you 29 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: have uncovered fresh layers of material that I personally found 30 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 3: fascinating and that I think dedicated readers of true crime 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: will really appreciate. For any listeners who have lived under 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 3: a rock for the last forty years, Neil, what is 33 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: your five second version of who Roger Rogerson is? 34 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: Perhaps ten seconds? 35 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: Roger Rogerson, detective sergeant in New South Wales armed hold 36 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: up Squad, the most notorious detective of his generation and 37 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: problem in Australian policing history. 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: And the stories that really grabbed me was the way 39 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 3: that you've gone back into history to establish that Roger 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 3: Rogerson was pretty crooked a long time ago. 41 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, what I set out to do 42 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: was to get the facts as much as I could 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 1: about Roger Rogerson and ned Smith, because there's a lot 44 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: of misinformation. There are a lot of urban myths, you know, 45 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: there's lots of stuff said that's true, maybe not true. 46 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: I set out to gather original source material, and I 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: went back to the seventies with court transcripts, witness statements 48 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: and so on, and started with the shooting of an 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: armed robber by the name of Philip Weston in nineteen 50 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: seventy six. And I knew very very little about that. 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: Roger had boasted about it over the years, but I 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: knew nothing about it. Virtually. I went back, went through 53 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: state archives in New South Wales, the National Library in Canberra, and Andrew. 54 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: What I turned up was a revelation to me, and 55 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: I thought I knew Rogerson pretty well. 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: Yes, you also found by doing that it led you 57 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: to dig up basically an old retired police officer. And 58 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 3: I found him a very interesting character. And I'm sure 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 3: you were delighted to find him still alive with his 60 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: marbles and some old files under the bed. 61 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: Who was that It was a detective by the name 62 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: of Ian Whirley, who's now I think eighty six eighty seven. 63 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: He was a contemporary of Roger Rogerson's and going back 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy six, Ian Whirley and Roger were pretty 65 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: good mates working in the arm hold Up Squad in Sydney. 66 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: Together they are involved in the arrest of this guy, 67 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: Philip Weston, who is an arm dropper. He's robbed a 68 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: bank late in seventy five. They pick him up January 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: seventy six, and west And applies for bail in the 70 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: first few months of seventy six, repeatedly, time and time again, 71 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: and at first the armed hold up squad says, no, no, 72 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: he's a dangerous man. If he gets out here will 73 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: offend no way, and he's refused, bail, refused, refused, refused. 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: Then Roger gets involved all of a sudden, and he says, 75 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: Philip Weston, the bloke they've arrested, the armed robbery. He's look, 76 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: he's the black sheep of the family. You know, his 77 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: mother and his wife are people of the highest caliber, 78 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: and his mum really needs him out to help her out. 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: And his wife's here with their two children. I've been 80 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: to her, I've been to meet them. I've met the wife, 81 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: I've met the children. And he softens. All of a sudden, 82 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: the opposition of the armed hold up squad is gone. 83 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: There's this distinct softening, and you know, eventually he gets bail. 84 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: And it's what I've found. It was manipulated by Rogerson 85 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: for instance, colleague Detective Ian Whirley, the guy who's still 86 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: with us thankfully. Yep, he's been refused bail about six seven, 87 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: eight times, Philip Western Ian Whirley's one of those opposing it. 88 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: Whirley goes on a cruise on a Monday. On Tuesday, 89 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: Philip Weston applies for a new bail hearing, and two 90 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: days later, with Whirley on his cruise and another detective 91 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: who'd opposed it on holiday, Philip Weston gets bail. Amazing, amazing, amazing. 92 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: I mean, he'd been arrested at gunpoint. He had a 93 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: Magnum three five seven, He had a whole pile of weapons, 94 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: false passports, whigs, you know, driver's licenses, the box and dice. 95 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: He was a dangerous man. But he gets this bail. 96 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: And going back through the records, I sort of noticed 97 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: that Whirly, Ian Whirley, the old detective, he'd gone on 98 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: this cruise and Philip Weston had remarkably got bail, and 99 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: I thought, I wonder if he and Whirley's still with us, 100 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: So I tracked him down him a letter popped it 101 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: in the post, good All Australia Post. They came through. 102 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: He calls me and he says, men died because of 103 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: what Roger Rogerson did. I don't want to talk over 104 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: the phone. Come and see me and I'll tell you 105 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: the whole rotten story. 106 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: And I thought that he's beautiful. 107 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: And I thought Jesus. I said, can I come and 108 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: see you tomorrow? And he's a long way out of Sydney. 109 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: He said, no, I can't do it for various reasons. 110 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: I went to see him and he has kept the 111 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: entire police brief of the Philip Western case, the armed robberies, 112 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: the bail applications, he's kept his police diaries. 113 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: Why would you do that, Neil? Why would he do that? 114 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: I think because of what he then told me. He said, 115 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: Western got bail because Roger Rogerson took a fifty thousand 116 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: dollars bribe. 117 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 3: So that's why he kept it all these years until 118 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: you knocked on his door. That's right, One day an 119 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 3: honest journo would knock on the door of honest copper. 120 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: And the sting in this Andrew is that after Philip 121 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: Western got bailed back in seventy six, the reason all 122 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: this becomes tragic important is that days after he gets bail, 123 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: in my view, by the manipulation of Roger Rogerson. He 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: tries to rob another bank and shoots dead the bank manager. 125 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: So this is huge news in Sydney at the time, 126 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: of course, and Philip Western is then immediately on the 127 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: run and he's tracked down a few days later north 128 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: of Sydney, surrounded by thirty police, heavily armed, bullet professed, 129 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: tear gas and the whole thing, and there's a shootout 130 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: and Western is shot dead. 131 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: He's shot dead a lot, isn't it. Many bullets were 132 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 3: fired at he. 133 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: There were three police probably two meters away in an 134 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: adjoining house. They were all armed with Remington shotguns. He 135 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: stuck his head out of the top half of his 136 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: body out of a bathroom window, pointed. The police say 137 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: he pointed his shotgun at them. Words were exchanged, but 138 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: very quickly the police opened fire, all three of them 139 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: with their shotguns, and he was dead, dead as a doornail. 140 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: And now we come back to w In Whirley, the 141 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: detective who went on the cruise and comes back to 142 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: find that the bloke he's arrested is now out on 143 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: Balin on the run. He says Rogerson took this fifty 144 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: thousand dollars bribe, and you know, he knew when he'd 145 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: been told that. And I said, well, you know, what 146 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: else do you know? And he said, well, I know 147 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: that Philip Western's mum tried to bribe me. And I 148 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: said what, and he said, yeah, she came round to 149 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: my house when I wasn't there. This is in early 150 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, when he's still in prison. He's trying 151 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: to get out. The old detective said, he left an 152 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: envelope with my daughter who was at home. It was 153 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: school holidays. I get home, I opened the envelope. There's 154 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: four thousand dollars in cash. It's a sweetness, a lot 155 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: of money, a lot of money in nineteen seventy six, absolutely, 156 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: and that's just a sweetner. He was told if he 157 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: plays ball, he said. He refused the money. He told 158 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: his superior at the CIB and not long after that 159 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: he and Rogerson had a massive falling out. He was 160 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: kicked out of the armhold up squad, he says, and 161 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: shortly after he left the police but tracking him down 162 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: filled in some of the gaps of the documents in 163 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: state archives, of some of the stuff at the National 164 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: Library and there was just this extraordinary story which you know, 165 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you look at Rogerson, a very clever man. 166 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: In this case. He has, in my view, eating all 167 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: the evidence, talking to people, talking to Ian Whirley, the 168 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: old cop. He's manipulated Crown prosecutors Rogerson. This is he's 169 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: manipulated the court system, judges, He's manipulated some of his 170 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: own many of his own colleagues to get this dangerous bloke, 171 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: Philip Western out on bail. And it all appears to 172 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: be for greed. This is nineteen seventy six, years before 173 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: he really comes to prominence. Yes, for the shooting of 174 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: Warren Land Franchi, which happens in nineteen eighty one, which 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: is really the first time his name crops up all 176 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: this stuff. In nineteen seventy six, he I don't think 177 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 1: his name might have been mentioned once in a newspaper 178 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: report and that was about it. 179 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: But everybody in the police force knew, but the wider 180 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: public had no idea. That's right, talking of manipulation, Neil, 181 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,359 Speaker 3: there's a part of that charade that I found fascinating 182 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: when I read your most excellent book, which we will 183 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: talk about in detail about where to find it. 184 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: And so on. It's a very good book. 185 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 3: And part of the reason of that is you've uncovered 186 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 3: these anecdotes that I've never heard before. And one of 187 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 3: them is in the Western case, Western or Western's advisers 188 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: purport to have produced his wife as well as his mother. 189 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 3: And Rogerson said, he went around to such and such 190 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: an address and knocked on the door and spoke to 191 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 3: missus Western. Was it really missus Western or was it 192 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 3: somebody else? 193 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: That's where I was pretty gobsmacked when I started going 194 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: through this material, Roger says, and he gives evidence about 195 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: this in court. He says, I've met the wife, I've 196 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: seen the children. The wife is of the highest caliber. 197 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: So's the mum. Lovely kiddies, lovely kiddies. And of course 198 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: this goes to bail. This is part of the process 199 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: of before Western actually gets out. And it helps if 200 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: you've got family, wife, kids that need their dad, that 201 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: sort of thing. It helps in a court of law, 202 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: but a judgeable abe be more sympathetic to granting bail, 203 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: it turns out, and the old detective Ian Whirley was 204 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: with Rogerson on this night, and Whirley noticed that the 205 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,599 Speaker 1: wife was wearing a wig that wasn't particularly well adjusted, 206 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: like she'd sort of just put it on in a 207 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: bit of a rush. Turns out that the wife, Roger says, 208 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: is of the highest caliber, and the kids, you know, 209 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: they need his dad. She's an impostor. She's a ringing. 210 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: The real wife is in New Zealand with her kids. 211 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: There are no kids at this flat. Rogerson gives evidence 212 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: that he's seen them, that the wife is there. She's 213 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: an impostor. 214 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: Where was she from, Neil? Where did he find her? 215 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: That's that's one of the things I just couldn't find out. 216 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: Ian Whirley, who knocked on the door with Rogerson that night, 217 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: thought she was an impostor. He thought she was a 218 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: sex worker that he'd met during his police work up 219 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: around King's Cross. 220 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: Oh, I see. 221 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: She'd been hired for to play the role of Catherine Weston, 222 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: the wife, and this is a matter of record in 223 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: the documentsy She's turned up about an hour before Rogerson 224 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: knocks on the door, and she leaves fifteen minutes after 225 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: he does. She's never sighted again. That's pretty good timing, Andrew. 226 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 3: That is a wonderful thing. Could you possibly make that 227 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: up for a script? About a bent copper, isn't it perfect? 228 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 3: He's gone down the street and grabbed a willing hooker 229 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 3: to whack a wig on and play the part for 230 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 3: fifteen minutes and where we go? 231 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: And she did, and she turned up in court and 232 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: she signed an affidavit with a solicitor and she's in 233 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: court and the barrister's going, he is missus Western, your honor, 234 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: and the Judge's going, well, okay, she's here. It's not 235 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: her at all. It's an impostor. She's a ring in front? 236 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 2: Did Roger Rogerson? 237 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: He had a huge amount of front. I mean there 238 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: was an old department store in Sydney called Anthony Harden's, 239 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: which was a very very big building. And there's an 240 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: old saying more front than Anthony Horden's, and Roger certainly 241 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: had that, and there was more Andrew there's another little 242 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: twist in this tale because he's granted bail Philip Weston, 243 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: but somebody has to actually post it. So two people 244 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: turn up at Waverley Court, which is the Waverley being 245 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: in Sydney's eastern suburbs, and they say, oh, we're here 246 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: to you know, put up our house as surety and 247 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: the guy gave his name as Ali Barber, and I said, 248 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: this is my wife. The wife doesn't speak at all, 249 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: and bail is granted. The chamber magistrate phones Long Bay 250 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: and you know, looks at all the documents. There is 251 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: a house that's legitimate, and says to the wife, are 252 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: you you know Ali Barber's wife? If she nods, doesn't 253 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: say anything. Mister Barber is in fact real enough. He 254 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: is a real person, but the wife is another impostor 255 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: Ali Barber, who is real. His actual wife was in 256 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: Finland at the time, which is about which is a 257 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: long way from Sydney's eastern suburbs. So you've got you've 258 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: got these ringings, and you've got this evidence by Rogerson 259 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: where you know the armed hold up squad go from no, no, 260 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: he's dangerous, don't let him out, bail should be refused 261 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: to Roger going, oh, you know, he's not such a 262 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: bad blake. The family's nice and all that, and look, 263 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: he probably will turn up if he gets bail. It's 264 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: hard to tell. It's reading his evidence. He's very very clever. 265 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: He doesn't say he should get bail. He just he says, 266 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, look, most people do turn up if conditions 267 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: are imposed, and if they've got family and that sort 268 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: of thing, and it's an extraordinary story. I was just 269 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: gobsmacked when I read a lot of this stuff and 270 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: finally met Ian Whirley, who filled in further detail and shocked. 271 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: Me even more. 272 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 3: It's hard not to smile about Rogerson's effrontery, but when 273 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: you analyze this for longer than three seconds, you realize 274 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: that this whole charade is probably only to get this 275 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 3: bloke on the street so that he can then lead 276 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: them to large amounts of cash which they can take 277 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: and distribute among themselves. This is a cabal of bent police. 278 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: That's what it was all about, really. 279 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: Wasn't it. 280 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 3: And then when he shoots a bank manager dead, they go, well, 281 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: not only we want the cash, but we want him 282 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 3: dead because we don't want him saying anything about anything. 283 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: So I'd be far better if he's dead on arrival. 284 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: It would solve a lot of problems. And that's indeed 285 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: what happens. They shoot him. 286 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: Indeed it is I mean, Rogerson wants him out to 287 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: get his money. The bank robbery in late seventy five. 288 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: At the end of seventy five, had nabbed, had you know, 289 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: they'd taken eighty nine thousand dollars. In fact, Philip Weston 290 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: had robbed exactly the same bank some months earlier, so 291 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: there was a total of one hundred and sixty five 292 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: grand lying around. Remarkably none of it was ever recovered. 293 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: But you're right, that's why Rogerson wanted him out on bail. 294 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: He was promised a very large amount of money and 295 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: perhaps an ongoing amount of money. And that's why Philip Weston, 296 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: days after getting bail, goes to rob this bank at 297 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: Paramatta and shoots the bank manager dead. And that's what 298 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: Ian Whirley when he phoned me, that phone call that 299 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: I'll never forget, when he said men died because because 300 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: of what Rogerson did. He's talking about Lynn Callahan, who 301 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 1: was the unfortunate bank manager who was murdered, you know, 302 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: and Weston himself who was shot dead. I don't think 303 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: the police who actually fired the shots knew anything at 304 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: all about Rogerson's Sheerah, No, no, and I think it 305 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: was one or two officers who knew. But of course 306 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: it's your point, is exactly right, Andrew, that once Philip 307 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: Weston had shot this bank manager, he was a complete 308 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 1: liability for Roger and one of maybe one other He 309 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: does get shot dead in this siege, it does. He 310 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: did have a shotgun on the evidence. That's the evidence 311 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: that I can find. 312 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: What. 313 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: I also got a whole lot of stuff from the 314 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: coroner's court after two years after I originally applied for it. 315 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: But one of the chilling aspects was that Rogerson's intimately 316 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: involved in the planning of this, you know, capture of Western. 317 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: If Western was taken alive at a voca, which is 318 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: about ninety k's north of Sydney on the coast. If 319 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: he was taken alive, guess who was going to drive 320 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: him back to Sydney. 321 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: Roger, of course, what could go wrong? 322 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: He had all bases covered, so in the end that 323 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: obviously wasn't necessary. Western was shot, and as I say, 324 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: I don't think any of the other police there that 325 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: day had any idea of what was going on, And 326 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: it appears the shooting itself was. 327 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 2: More or less a clean kill. 328 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he had a gun and he leaned out 329 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: the window and shots had been fired. But yeah, that 330 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: was seventy six and I was just. 331 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 3: That opens up a whole new early chapter, a prequel. 332 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 3: If you like to the established and well known stories 333 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: of Roger Rogerson's life and crimes. 334 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: That's right, it's happening years earlier than perhaps we originally thought, certainly. 335 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: And the detail, I mean, it's circumstantial, but it's quite 336 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: compelling to me. As I say in the book, Philip 337 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: Weston might have fired the gun, might have shot the 338 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: bank manager, but Roger loaded the gun. 339 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: He did. 340 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 3: You've managed to find these new nuggets of information and 341 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 3: feed them into your narrative of the Rogerson and Neddie 342 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 3: Smith he's a great friend, it is the wrong word, really, 343 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 3: but his colleague and crime he's associate, as they say, 344 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: You've fed these nuggets of fresh information into that narrative 345 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: with great skill. And I've found that even though many 346 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 3: of us are familiar with some of the landmarks of 347 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 3: the Rogerson story, you've filled in a lot of the 348 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 3: valleys between the landmarks with this book. And I found 349 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 3: it fascinating in a way that we don't always find 350 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 3: true crime books as fascinating as they should be, Neil, 351 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 3: not all of them are. It does attract a lot 352 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 3: of amateurs and would. 353 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: Be I really wanted to nail down as much as 354 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: I could and look let's face it, with Roger and Ned, 355 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: the truth is sometimes an elusive commodity. But I really 356 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: wanted to try to nail down as much as I 357 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: could the facts, and to go back to the courts, 358 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: to go back to witness statements from the day, from 359 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: the days of the shootings or the armed robberies or whatever, 360 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: and to use that as a you know, at least 361 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: as a basis for a starting point to then weave 362 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: the story. Because there is so much about written about Roger. 363 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: A lot of it's right, of course, I mean, but 364 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: some of it, a lot of it's wrong. And I 365 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: think it's actually important. This is part of our history, 366 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: particularly in New South Wales history, Sydney history, policing history, 367 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: and I think it's important that we get it right. 368 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: And there's no need. The thing with Roger and Ned, 369 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: there's no need to exaggerate anything about them. There is 370 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: so much material there. They did so many things. Gee, 371 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of intrigue, there's 372 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: a lot of skullduggery. Shenanigan's call it what you will. 373 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: Funnily enough, although I'm from Melbourne, I did spend a 374 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 3: bit of time with Rogerson but not as much as 375 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: you did, and not as early as you did, obviously, 376 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 3: because you are the homegrown article there. But he was 377 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 3: an interesting figure because he could be at times charming 378 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: and entertaining and all that sort of thing. I talk 379 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 3: to other people about him. You know, you can talk 380 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 3: to someone about themselves and it only takes you so far. 381 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: They only really give you a very sensited view of themselves. 382 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: But if you talk to others about. 383 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 3: Them, it can be interesting. And I found an ex 384 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 3: copper who's in the security industry who knew Rogerson quite well. 385 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 3: But he also was friendly with Mick Drury, who, of 386 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 3: course famously was the undercover policeman who Rogerson organized to 387 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 3: have shot, which was a terrible thing. And that policeman 388 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 3: said to me that that ex policeman, he said, I'm 389 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: in sort of two minds about Roger. He said, he's 390 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: a wicked, conniving, whole blooded reptile, and yet I knew 391 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 3: him to do genuinely kind things. He said, this is 392 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 3: what he said, and he gave me examples of that. 393 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: How do you read that? Do you think he was 394 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: had the wool pulled over his eyes. 395 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: Or no, no, not at all. 396 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 2: That's exactly. 397 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: We rather liked him, That's what people have said to me. 398 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: I met him in late eighty two. I did an 399 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: interview with him for the Sydney Morning Herald. It was 400 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: the first interview he'd done since the shooting of land Franchi, 401 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: you know, and I got to know him over the 402 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: subsect over the next you know what, forty years or so. 403 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: He was I liked him. I mean, there are elements 404 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: of Roger that were very likable. He was good company, 405 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: He did do some good things. And you know, it's interesting, 406 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: Andrew that people sometimes don't really want to hear that. 407 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: They just want the cardboard cut out. Bad guy, evil, wicked. 408 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: And what he did to Mike as he was shocking, terrible, 409 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: was shocking. I mean, you know, there's police who were 410 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: his colleagues who still they believe it, but they can't 411 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: quite bring themselves to believe it, if you know what 412 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: I mean. They're still shaking their heads that one of 413 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: their own could plan and execute the murder of one 414 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: of their own as he stood in his own home 415 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: next to his little girl. As it turns out, he survived. 416 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,719 Speaker 1: He met Michael Drewy, which very thankful for that. But 417 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: when I spoke to Michael the other day, and you know, 418 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: he still in a sense bears some scars of that. 419 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: Of course, as you'd expect. 420 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: It was he almost died. He was so close to death. 421 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: He was so close to death. 422 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: And the dying deposition, of course that he made, that's right, 423 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: put Roger away. 424 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: That was the first real chink in the armor. This 425 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: is nineteen eighty four, mid nineteen eighty four. Michael Drury's 426 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: standing in his kitchen at his home. He shot. He's 427 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: critically wounded. His kids are there, his wife's there. He 428 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: manages to survive, but he's in hospital and they think 429 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: he's going to die. He makes, as you say, the 430 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: dying deposition in which he says Rogerson tried to bribe 431 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: him over a case a drug bust down in Melbourne, 432 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: and you know he spoke to him about it, said 433 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: there was I think fifteen or twenty five thousand, there 434 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: were a couple of amounts mentioned. It was Drury's dying deposition, 435 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: and that's what really started Rogerson's demise because the two 436 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: the earlier shootings, Philip Weston worn Land Francis, he'd survived those, 437 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: but here was a police officer. You know, critically horribly wounded, 438 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: and he made these allegations against the Golden Boy of 439 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: the CIB. A lot of people turned on Drury, which 440 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: must have been terrible for him because they didn't want 441 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: to believe that Roger, you know this, the golden Boy 442 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: could do something like that. And the investigation into the 443 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: shooting of Drury that followed was a fiasco, an absolute debarkle. 444 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 1: They split it up. They had one lot of cops 445 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: investigating the alleged bribery and another team investigating the shooting 446 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: when they were clearly linked. Nobody knew who was in 447 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: charge of what. One team was raiding somebody's place and 448 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: they weren't telling the other the shooting team and the 449 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: bribery team wasn't telling the other team it was. It'd 450 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: be funny if it wasn't so serious, Andrew, it'd be funny. 451 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: It was just an absolute fiasco the investigation, and in 452 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: the end that was partly the reason, or a big 453 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: part of the reason why Roger was found not guilty 454 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: of the attempt at of Michael Drury. Because the New 455 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: South Wales Police could not investigate the attempted murder of 456 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: one of their own. It still stands as an absolute disgrace. 457 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 2: It does. 458 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 3: I note there are many good stories in this and 459 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 3: many of them, of course involve Neddie Smith, another giant 460 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 3: figure in crime stories in New South Wales and across Australia. 461 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: Giant in both ways. He was what six foot five 462 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 3: in the old money and basically he was sort of 463 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 3: Roger Rogerson's attack dog in some ways, wasn't he? 464 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 2: He could do the dirty work? Does that makes sense? 465 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: Their relationship was really interesting. I mean, there were some 466 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: Australian Federal Police intercepts telephone intercepts from nineteen eighty three 467 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: where Neddie Smith is phoning Darlinghurst, where Roger is now stationed, 468 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: but Smith knows some of the other cops there. One 469 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: of the main topics was lunch and getting on the grog, 470 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: getting on the I mean, it came up in just 471 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: about every conversation. Other things came up, like ned Smith 472 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: saying to a police officer who was a mate of 473 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: Rogers at Darlinghurst, shall I bring the ten? Shall I 474 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: bring the ten? We can whack it up three ways. 475 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: You probably don't need to be a genius to figure 476 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: out what he was talking about there. And he was 477 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: openly calling them all sorts of four letter words, which 478 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: I obviously can't repeat. But there was this. It was 479 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: like he was one of the boys. 480 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 2: It wasn't. 481 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: This was not an informant police officer relationship. 482 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: Wasn't saying hello, mister Rogerson. No, no, no, they're all 483 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 3: gangsters together. 484 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have spoken to a detective like that. Let 485 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: me give you the tip. He was clearly very familiar 486 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: with them. He was drinking with them, he was getting 487 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: drunk with them on a regular basis. 488 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,239 Speaker 3: And they got him out of several times. I got 489 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: him out of terribly big scrapes, like he'd attack somebody 490 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: with a hammer, or he'd pull a gun on somebody, or. 491 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: He'd do whatever. 492 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 3: But he would be able to bribe his way out 493 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 3: through his network of corrupt police. 494 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: Is that right? 495 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 3: Oh? 496 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: Oh, he paid police a lot, and he paid He 497 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: says he paid Roger large amounts. The problem with ned 498 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: Smith is that his central story is absolutely right. He 499 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: was paying bribes and he was committing crimes. His problem 500 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: was a problem for me for others, is that he 501 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: started to embellish everything and put in people who he 502 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: just hated because he wanted to dob on them who 503 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: hadn't taken bribes. It was a sort of a scattergun approach, 504 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: and in the end his word, I'm afraid was sort 505 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: of almost worthless without any corroboration. But I mean Roger 506 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: did him and did Ned smith favors. One of the 507 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: favors was Ned and a bloke called Bobby Chapman had 508 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: tried to do a robbery on a payroll, a bakery payroll. 509 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: This is nineteen seventy six. This is when they first meet, 510 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: actually Smith and Chapman that they botched the robbery, but 511 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: shots are fired and one of the blokes carrying the 512 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: payroll narrowly escapes death, misses his head by a whisker. 513 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: So it's pretty serious. Long story short, they're charged with 514 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: one of them's charged with attempted murder, and you know, 515 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: time goes by. Roger takes a statement from Ned's mate 516 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: Bobby Chapman, saying, oh, yeah, I did fire the shots, 517 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: but it was accidental. The gun went off, I didn't 518 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: mean to sort of thing, which is suss in itself. 519 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: But then when it gets to court, Roger's in the 520 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: witness and he says, I've done further investigation. It wasn't 521 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: Bobby Chapman needs mate who fired the shots at all. 522 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: It was a bloke, this bloke by the name of 523 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: Robert McKinnon. This is astonishing news to the Crown prosecutor. 524 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 2: Courts adjourned. 525 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: Crown Prosecutor not happy outside court, doesn't believe Rogerson, who says, oh, 526 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: and informants told me this new information that it was 527 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: not needs mate Bobby Chapman who fired the shots, that 528 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: it was this blake, Robert McKinnon. The Crown prosecutor doesn't 529 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: believe him. Roger won't reveal his source. Okay, maybe that's 530 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: fair enough. Well, of course, where's Robert McKinnon, the man 531 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: who did fire the shots allegedly according to Roger and 532 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: his new investigation is new details. Guess what, Robert McKinnon 533 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: has disappeared? Oh no, yes, bad luck, Well, bad luck 534 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: for Robert McKinnon because that was nineteen seventy six and 535 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: he's never been found, seen, heard of since, just disappeared 536 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: off the face of the earth. And the court case 537 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: was aborted and they both got you know, Bobby Chapman, 538 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: the Kaki has got a much lighter sentence thanks to Roger. 539 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 3: And a bloke that they blamed, and a bloke that. 540 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: They blamed, who conveniently, of course, could not then or 541 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: ever since be found that just gone is. 542 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: So sinister, is it not? 543 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: Not? 544 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 3: You know, it's full of sinister things, and there's no 545 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 3: doubt in the end, none of it's funny. But there 546 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 3: were sort of funny things along the way. One of them. 547 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 3: I know, it's an old story and we often tell it, 548 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: but you tell it particularly well in the book, and 549 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 3: that is the time when Roger Rogerson came to the 550 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: rescue of a damsel in distress, and that would be 551 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 3: Dame Shirley Bassey, who was then singing at Checker's Nightclub. 552 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: He said, is this is this right, witness? 553 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: Well, Roger says, it is that way way back in 554 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: the seventies. He was happened to be walking down I 555 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: think it's Golden Street in the middle of Sydney, Checker's Nightclub, 556 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: very famous nightclub way back then. Lots of international acts 557 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: appeared there. It was an incredibly popular nightclub and also 558 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: favored by detectives from time to time. Shirley Bassey was 559 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: singing there and Roger says, he's walking down Golden Street 560 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: thereabouts and he sees this bloke with a sequined handbag 561 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: bolting out of the nightclub. He says, I gave chase, 562 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: and of course he apprehends this bloke. He was always 563 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: reasonably fit. Roger he grabs, grabs the offender, grabs the handbag. 564 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: The sequent handbag or very expensive handbag. Offender is marched 565 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: off to the slammer. Roger goes back to Checkers and 566 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: he with his Shirley with the handbag, and he says 567 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: to me, and not just to me, but to others 568 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: over the years that Shirley BASSI showed her appre appreciation 569 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: in a very special way. There you go, which may, 570 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: of course be true, Andrew, may not be true. I 571 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: did ask a couple of other members of the armed 572 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: hold up squad from that time if they'd ever heard that, 573 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: and they just looked at me and said, no, never 574 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: heard it before. But it's a story he did tell. 575 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: And look, that was as you said earlier. He was charming. 576 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: He was good company. You could sit down with him, 577 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: have a beer, and he could talk to anybody. He 578 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: could talk to crooks, he could talk to politicians, he 579 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: could talk to all levels of society. He was a 580 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: highly intelligent man, and he is something to me of 581 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: enigma that somebody with so much talent can go so bad. 582 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 3: A highly functioning sociopath. You'd think you have seen well. 583 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: Well if you put together the words intelligent, charming, manipulative. 584 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm not a psychiatrist psychologist, but they might suggest that 585 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: he's a sociopath. But look, he was. He helped out neighbors, 586 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: he you know, he did. He did good things for 587 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: people he barely knew. As you said earlier, he on 588 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: many occasions displayed great courage and arresting seriously bad men, 589 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: armed robbers, heroin dealers, all that sort of stuff. So 590 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: is this this strange, this enigma that you know, on 591 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: the one hand, there was a lot of good things 592 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: he did and part of his character was admirable. And 593 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: on the other hand, you've got this cold, calculating person 594 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 1: who can who can arrange the murder or the attempted 595 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,919 Speaker 1: murder of one of his colleagues in his own home. 596 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, of innocent people. It's one thing to kill a 597 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 3: bad crook, quite another to arrange the death of a younger, 598 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 3: married policeman merely over. 599 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: Cash for nothing but money, yeah, you know. Money. 600 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 3: In the end, you'd have to say on balance, he 601 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 3: wasn't going to go to heaven, which is I think 602 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 3: he acknowledged himself had an interview with Julia Baird. 603 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 2: Is that right he did? 604 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: I think he said there were there more deserving people 605 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: to go to heaven. And I think there are many 606 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: many people probably around the country who would agree with Roger. 607 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 3: On that note. Neil, we'll say amen. But your book 608 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 3: I have read every word The Kingpin and the Crooked Cop. 609 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 3: The Kingpin, of course is Neddie Smith, but the Crooked 610 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 3: Cop is the one we've spoken about mostly today because 611 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 3: we can't cover every story in the book. 612 00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 2: There's a lot of it. It's a big book. It's 613 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: I've got a lot of detail. 614 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 3: It's got a lot of new material mixed in very 615 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 3: artfully with established material and written by one of our 616 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 3: finest investigative journalists and Wordsmith a combination of abilities that 617 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 3: don't always go together, Neil, but you've you've got both. 618 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 3: You're you're a fighter and a boxer. 619 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: You're too kind. 620 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to talk to you in long may 621 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 2: you reign. 622 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Andrew, Thanks for having. 623 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: Me, Thanks for listening. 624 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 3: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 625 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 3: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 626 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 3: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 627 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 3: forward slash Andrew Rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 628 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 3: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 629 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 3: That is all one word news podcasts song and if 630 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 3: you want further information about this episode, links are in 631 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 3: the description.