1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,560
Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel

2
00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 1: people of the Uran Nation. Hello and welcome to the

3
00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildebert. Not much around this week

4
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 1: apart from Mark Latham, and of course a bit of

5
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:18,160
Speaker 1: World War Three as well. There's always a bit of

6
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 1: World War Three around this time. According to some you'd

7
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: be forgiven for thinking it was Albow who was starting it.

8
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,560
Speaker 1: And the leaked Treasury document that reveals that we're going

9
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,440
Speaker 1: to have more taxes or spending cards or no houses.

10
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,040
Speaker 1: It's just armageddon. I'm going to get right to the

11
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:41,320
Speaker 1: bottom of it right now. So first up this week,

12
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 1: we just can't not talk about the Mark Latham sexting scandal.

13
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,720
Speaker 1: But I actually just want to talk about Mark Latham.

14
00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: The sexing scannel. I've got to say. I'm going to

15
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: say it. I actually don't reckon that's the problem. From

16
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: all the evidence we've seen so far, it was pretty consensual.

17
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,119
Speaker 1: I know that the woman involved says that she didn't

18
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,960
Speaker 1: like it and felt degraded. But the police have not

19
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: contacted Latham. They have not laid any charges, which normally

20
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 1: they would do if there was concerns or if they

21
00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,119
Speaker 1: thought a crime had been committed, but we'll see, we'll

22
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 1: let that all play out. But from the text messages

23
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,399
Speaker 1: that we've seen, and I urge you to see them,

24
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,240
Speaker 1: go to Daily Telegraph dot com dot au where they've

25
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,800
Speaker 1: put a whole bunch of them up and again, these

26
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 1: are just the ones fit to publish. And the other

27
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 1: stuff that's in there, the stuff I've been told that

28
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,959
Speaker 1: is out there is just whoo. But you know what,

29
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: far be it from me to judge a man for

30
00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 1: having a good time as long as it's all consensual,

31
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 1: as long as everyone's in on it at the time.

32
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 1: Maybe there is some regrets afterwards, Well we all have those,

33
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 1: don't we. But that's not really the problem. Much like

34
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 1: everyone used to say whenever Rudd misbehaved, we need to

35
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 1: talk about Kevin. I think we need to talk about

36
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,600
Speaker 1: Mark and I need to confess something to you because

37
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 1: I am probably guiltier than anyone of enabling Mark Laith.

38
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:25,360
Speaker 1: I am a lathmerphile for more than two decades. I

39
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,720
Speaker 1: got in on the ground floor with this guy, and

40
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,080
Speaker 1: there is we talk about it often. When we have

41
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,360
Speaker 1: new cadets at the Daily Telegraph, I'll give a little

42
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 1: talk to them, and you know, about journalism and everything,

43
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,840
Speaker 1: and tell them about always reading against the grain, you know,

44
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 1: making sure you're not letting your own biases color the

45
00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,240
Speaker 1: way you see things, saying all right, what if I'm

46
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: wrong about all this? What I want? And this is

47
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 1: something that I absolutely, one hundred percent did not do.

48
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,920
Speaker 1: Mark lath it. So I'm going to tell you for

49
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,680
Speaker 1: the first time, no one has ever heard this before.

50
00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,679
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you the full story of Marc

51
00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 1: Lathe them through my eyes, and it's a story that

52
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 1: goes back, as I said, more than twenty years. So

53
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 1: Mark Latham was it was the mayor of Liverpool. There

54
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 1: were some issues there well, but he was a prodigious

55
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,680
Speaker 1: even let's go back before that. He was a prodigious

56
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 1: cricket player, a brilliant intellect. He was seen as this

57
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 1: great white hope of the southwest city where he was

58
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,799
Speaker 1: growing up. They passed the hat around to make sure

59
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 1: he could go to UNI and everything. Like he was.

60
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,720
Speaker 1: You know, this was a working class boy made good

61
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,920
Speaker 1: and it's very very clear that he always had this

62
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: incredible brain. Turns out probably a flawed brain, but a

63
00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,720
Speaker 1: very very smart one. He goes into politics, he learns

64
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,680
Speaker 1: at the sort of feat of GoF Whitlam, who was

65
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 1: his hero. He ends up getting GoF Whitlam's seat of

66
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: wherever before that he'd been, like I said, the Mayor

67
00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 1: of Liverpool. A few stories going around that time and

68
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 1: again these sort of stories kept following Latham around. There's

69
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 1: stories of him being abrasive or a bit too punchy

70
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 1: or violent. The first I spoke to Mark Latham was

71
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 1: when he had assaulted a taxi driver. He thought a

72
00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: taxi driver was after a function, he'd had a few beers.

73
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 1: He says he wasn't too drunk or wasn't drunk. Taxi

74
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,599
Speaker 1: driver takes him on what he thinks is a circuitous

75
00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 1: fair that he's being hipped off, and he refuses to

76
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,200
Speaker 1: pay the fair. Taxi driver I think tried to grab

77
00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:38,040
Speaker 1: his bag and Mark Latham proceeded well spear tackle inm

78
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,960
Speaker 1: I believe, and I think he injured his shoulder or

79
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 1: something like that. I was working at AAP at the time.

80
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 1: I put a call in I somehow managed to get

81
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,760
Speaker 1: Mark Latham's number, and again this is something refreshing about him.

82
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 1: Whatever you think of the bloke, but he doesn't deny it.

83
00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 1: He doesn't say oh no, that never happened, or if

84
00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 1: you published that, I'll sue you or anything. Blah blah blah.

85
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,719
Speaker 1: He says, Oh yeah, I was a textbook tackle. He

86
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,839
Speaker 1: was proud of it, and it made me kind of like,

87
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,040
Speaker 1: I went, oh, all right, and we've all been ripped

88
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 1: off by a cab driver, haven't we? So you know,

89
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:11,840
Speaker 1: so people kind of forgave him for that, dare I

90
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,239
Speaker 1: say it? People were actually on his side. And again,

91
00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 1: this is a bloke who was already the great white

92
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,520
Speaker 1: hope of the Australian Labor Party, was being touted as

93
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,559
Speaker 1: a future leader, a future prime minister. He'd written a book,

94
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,000
Speaker 1: and again this is how far he's come. This is

95
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,559
Speaker 1: a bloke who's written a number of sort of cerebral books.

96
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,760
Speaker 1: He'd just'd written a book with Lindsay Tanner called Civilizing

97
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,920
Speaker 1: Global Capital. I mean imagine attaching Mark Latham's name to

98
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,719
Speaker 1: a book like that these days, or any book title

99
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 1: with the word civilizing in it, and so on this guys.

100
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,800
Speaker 1: And then there's a lead up to him becoming the

101
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 1: Labor leader. Simon Crean was leader about this time, and

102
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,120
Speaker 1: he was going nowhere. It was terrible. He firstly tried

103
00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,600
Speaker 1: to overhaul the party by reducing union influence at at

104
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,359
Speaker 1: labor conferences, and that was, needless to say, pretty unpopular

105
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 1: with the unions, and so they were out for blood.

106
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,840
Speaker 1: But also he just wasn't cutting through at all. His

107
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 1: communications skills were absolutely terrible, His communications team was terrible.

108
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,120
Speaker 1: And Kim Beasley, who had gallantly stepped down at the

109
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,559
Speaker 1: end of after the two thousand and one election, having

110
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 1: contested two elections and sadly lost them both even though

111
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,160
Speaker 1: he came incredibly close. In nineteen ninety eight, he steps down,

112
00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 1: Simon Crane takes over, and it's a disaster. It's an

113
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 1: absolute disaster. Nonetheless, Kim Beasley challenges Simon Crean decides to

114
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,359
Speaker 1: come back. He's persuaded that this can't go on, and

115
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 1: Crean wins creen wins convincently by about two thirds of

116
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,599
Speaker 1: the vote to one third of the vote. And of course,

117
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: as we know with leadership challenges, it's always a two

118
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,720
Speaker 1: strike things. So the first strikers to destabilize and then

119
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,479
Speaker 1: the second striking movie for the kill. And sure enough,

120
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,840
Speaker 1: later that year, in two thousand and three, Kim Beasley

121
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 1: launches the second strike and this time Simon Creane basically resigns.

122
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 1: He falls on his sword, and Kim Beasley says, right,

123
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 1: I've got the leadership back. And this time around, there's

124
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,800
Speaker 1: no Tampa, there's no September eleven. Next elections in two

125
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 1: thousand and four, looks like Labor has a real shot

126
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,960
Speaker 1: at winning it, but Kim Beasley doesn't get handed the

127
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,600
Speaker 1: leadership on a platter. A young gun, young turk by

128
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 1: the name of Mark Latham decides that he is going

129
00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 1: to take on Kim Beasley. He's always hated Kim Beasley,

130
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 1: always thought he was sort of weak and soft and

131
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, the stuff that Lathan will

132
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 1: say about anyone these days. And so he says, no,

133
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to go him. And the vote is so close.

134
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,080
Speaker 1: The vote is so close that one of Beasley's key

135
00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 1: supporters is actually a guy called the shadow Attorney General McClellan.

136
00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 1: And someone comes up to him and says, the numbers

137
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,840
Speaker 1: are tied, the numbers are tight, It is exactly split.

138
00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,280
Speaker 1: If you vote for Beesley. The numbers are absolutely one

139
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: hundred percent split, something like forty seven forty seven or

140
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 1: something like that. And McClellan gets approached by Latham, and

141
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 1: he says, just do me one favor. Speak to this

142
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,680
Speaker 1: this guy played footy with see what he thinks. And

143
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,079
Speaker 1: so McClellan famously speaks to this old old footy bloke

144
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,320
Speaker 1: and he says, you're backed Beasley again. It's like backing

145
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 1: me to go back and play first grade. And apparently,

146
00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,680
Speaker 1: for reasons that probably escape most of us in retrospect,

147
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 1: that's enough to make Rob McClellan change his mind after

148
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 1: he's told that split maybe says we can't afford another

149
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,080
Speaker 1: split vote, and he instead throws his lot in with

150
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,679
Speaker 1: Mark Latham. Lathan becomes the leader of the Australian Labor Party.

151
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 1: Now he starts banging on about the ladder of opportunity

152
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,000
Speaker 1: and the need to ease the squeeze and all this stuff,

153
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 1: reading books to kids, early childhood learning, he's hanging out

154
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 1: with mem Fox, all this kind of new stuff, this

155
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,480
Speaker 1: sort of slightly new third wave politics. He says that

156
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,120
Speaker 1: you know what, if you're on what's at one hundred

157
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,920
Speaker 1: and twenty grand a year in city, that's actually not

158
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,400
Speaker 1: that much money. And of course the left got he likes,

159
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,360
Speaker 1: but he's tapping into that aspirational out of suburban mindset

160
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,200
Speaker 1: that he is a part of that he has come from,

161
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,079
Speaker 1: and this is amazingly popular with voters. And another thing that's

162
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,559
Speaker 1: amazingly popular with voters is he says, we're going to

163
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 1: cut the Parliamentary superannuation scheme. It's not fair that MPs

164
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,679
Speaker 1: get this incredibly generous pension scheme for the rest of

165
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,600
Speaker 1: their lives while everyone else is struggling to make ends meet.

166
00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 1: Of course he doesn't cut it for himself, just everyone

167
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 1: who comes after. And how it agrees to this, this

168
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,280
Speaker 1: is how he does it. In fact, Lathan brings it

169
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: up and how it says I can't how it's got

170
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 1: great political antenna, says I can't go into bat I

171
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: can't lose political capital fighting for my right to get,

172
00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,719
Speaker 1: you know, millions in a lifetime pension. And how it

173
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 1: goes all right, I agree to it. Tries to kill

174
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 1: it off as an issue, but of course that's just

175
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 1: from that point forward, Latham and Howard they're all fine.

176
00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,480
Speaker 1: They still get it. Amazing scenes anyway, So everything looks

177
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,199
Speaker 1: like it's going Latham's way. He's got amazing approval ratings.

178
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 1: And then he gets to the election and as he's

179
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 1: getting the election, there's the l Plates campaign. He's just

180
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 1: not ready. Stories are coming up about his past as

181
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 1: Liverpool mayor the cab driver. And then he decides, in

182
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 1: a deliberate decision, and this is the weird thing. He

183
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: decides when he runs into John Howard at a radio

184
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,600
Speaker 1: studio that he actually wants to make Howard squirm or sweat.

185
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,320
Speaker 1: He wants to kind of, you know, muscle up to him,

186
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,079
Speaker 1: and he gives that infamous handshake. And again, most people

187
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,800
Speaker 1: would think that it was just an accident, and most

188
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,240
Speaker 1: people would say, what are you talking about. I wasn't

189
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 1: being aggressive. This is just I'm just bigger than John Howard.

190
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You know, I used to play footy, your

191
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,480
Speaker 1: cricket or whatever. I'm a big guy. It's not my

192
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,280
Speaker 1: fault that, you know, I've got a strong handshake. But

193
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 1: Latham doesn't. Again, he admits that this is what he

194
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,960
Speaker 1: was trying to do. He admits he was trying to

195
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,080
Speaker 1: psych the guy, not even just psych him, but because

196
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,280
Speaker 1: he was upset about something or whatever. And this is disastrous.

197
00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 1: This is the handshake that costs Laith in the election.

198
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,839
Speaker 1: And not just Laith in the election, but gave the

199
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: coalition a majority in both the House of Reps and

200
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,560
Speaker 1: for the first time in the Senate, and that is

201
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,880
Speaker 1: what enables the Coalition to say, right, we're going to

202
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,079
Speaker 1: do what we always want to do. We're going to

203
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,679
Speaker 1: bring in work choices. And guess who's the workplace reporter

204
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,080
Speaker 1: the Daily Telegraph as they're bringing in the biggest ever

205
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 1: industrial relations revolution, probably in Australian history. Little old me.

206
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,679
Speaker 1: And so I'm there and again this is this thing

207
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 1: that Latham's delivered. He's lost the unlosable election. He then

208
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: sort of goes into hiding. He disappears the boxing days,

209
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 1: tsunami hits. No one can even get a statement out

210
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,400
Speaker 1: of him. No one's even talking to him. He's sort

211
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 1: of like the Hulk. He's going into this sort of seething, simmering,

212
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 1: sulking rage. It turns out he has pancreat titus at

213
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 1: this time, which is incredibly painful, I'm told, and so

214
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 1: maybe that put him off a bit. So no one

215
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 1: is talking to Latham except one guy called Joel Fitzgibbon,

216
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,559
Speaker 1: who later also became Lad of Mine, good fellow, fellow

217
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 1: traveler and the sensible wing of the Australian Labor Party,

218
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,240
Speaker 1: and eventually Latham is tapped on the shoulders and eventually

219
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 1: he goes and Kim Beasley comes back to the Labor leadership.

220
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,520
Speaker 1: Fantastic peace in our time, except right at the very end,

221
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 1: Kevin Rudd comes for him, shoots him down, and of course,

222
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 1: you know who's Kevin Rudd's little robin to his batman

223
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: at this time? It's me? Again? What am I? I

224
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 1: keep popping anyway, So all these things are just just weird,

225
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,319
Speaker 1: and somehow I just sort of pop up. I'm like

226
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,760
Speaker 1: Forest Gump. I just keep popping up in these situations.

227
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: But Latham sort of goes away. He releases the Latham Diaries,

228
00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 1: and these are incredibly frank, honest assessment. He doesn't hold

229
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 1: anything back, his hatreds, his contempt for people. He just

230
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,680
Speaker 1: lets it all hang out, and it's fantastic. It's a

231
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 1: great read, and it's incredibly honest. And again this endears

232
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 1: people to lath them despite all he's done. And Latham

233
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 1: then later goes on and joins the Liberal Democrats. So

234
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,240
Speaker 1: David Lienholm's crew, you know, sort of ultra libertarian, some

235
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 1: would say ultra right wing, but certainly libertarian. You know,

236
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:33,640
Speaker 1: freedom Loving Party. In the meantime, he's writing columns for

237
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,839
Speaker 1: the Financial Review. He's also smashed up a camera from

238
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,679
Speaker 1: a Daily Telegraph photographer who was trying to find out,

239
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, where he was what he was doing, because

240
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,640
Speaker 1: he was laying low and we were filthy about that.

241
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 1: And I was there when it happened. I was there

242
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: when it happened. I think this guy is this behavior

243
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,600
Speaker 1: is absolutely abominable. He's a terrible bloke. He's unhinged, he

244
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 1: can't control his temper. Next thing I know, I'm hiring

245
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,520
Speaker 1: him as a columnist because he ends up doing this

246
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 1: column for the finn Review. And they're really good, Like

247
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 1: they're really insightful. You never really know what he's going

248
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 1: to say or where he's going to land. But some

249
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 1: of the stuff he's saying is really really effective, in

250
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,680
Speaker 1: stuff that no one else is saying, you know, railing

251
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 1: against identity politics when there are people struggling and you know,

252
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 1: social housing in Campbelltown who don't get a look in,

253
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: but because they happen to be white and male, somehow

254
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,480
Speaker 1: they're considered to be privileged, even though these are people

255
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 1: at the so just the idiocy of seeing things through

256
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: that lens instead of seeing the things through actual disadvantage.

257
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 1: And this is just you know, this is just white

258
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 1: line fever. To me. I'm like, oh, this guy's speaking

259
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 1: my language, you know, talking about poverty and disadvantage instead

260
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 1: of race or gender and all this stuff. And so yeah,

261
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 1: So I tried to Poachmark Latham from the Finn and

262
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I kept trying. That's the thing. It's not

263
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 1: like a fellow my life. I kept trying, and eventually

264
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: Latham does what Latham always does. He blows up at

265
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 1: the editor of the Financial Review for no real reason

266
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,480
Speaker 1: that anyone can quite understand. Everyone thinks that he's been sacked,

267
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 1: and they go to the editor of the finn Review,

268
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 1: Michael Stutbury, and he says, oh, no, no, Latham left.

269
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 1: He just said he wasn't going to do it anymore

270
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,840
Speaker 1: because he was upset about something or other for the

271
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 1: life and he cannot even figure out or remember what

272
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 1: it was. And so what do I do do? I think, Oh,

273
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,400
Speaker 1: this guy's bad years is too hot to handle, volatile,

274
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 1: I said, not great. I finally get the chance to

275
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 1: tie and again we bring him on as a columnist,

276
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 1: and his columns are really good. The bloke can put

277
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 1: together a really good column and and again it's interesting.

278
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,680
Speaker 1: For a while, he rejoins the Labor Party, thinks maybe

279
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 1: there is some hope in the old joint yet, but

280
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 1: very quickly he gets sick of that and he ends up,

281
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 1: of course, very famously, then joining One Nation with Pauline Hansen.

282
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 1: They're the new dream team. And as part of their

283
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 1: big reveal of this, the two of them, Latham and

284
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 1: Pauline Hanson plan to sit down on a live TV

285
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 1: show and announced that Latham is their new star candidate

286
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 1: in New South Wales and that TV show was Studio ten.

287
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 1: We time on as the kind of resident politics guy.

288
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 1: So suddenly I'm just here with Latham again, you know,

289
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 1: and again we've had phone calls over the years and

290
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 1: of course we're he's writing columns or was, and so

291
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,960
Speaker 1: we you know, we're ready, we're excited, but promoting it,

292
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, Pauline Hanson and unveiling a new Canada. And

293
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 1: they rock up out the front and Pauline Hanson comes

294
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 1: in with a chief of staff James Ashman, and we're like, hey, guys,

295
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: great to see you. Where's the other guy, where's the

296
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,800
Speaker 1: new guy? Mark Latham, and there's like, oh, well, yeah,

297
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 1: we're not sure, and they pretended there was some mix

298
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 1: up or some scheduling conflict or whatever. No, it turned

299
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: out that Latham had got out of the car with

300
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 1: them in front of Channel ten, which is right next

301
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,640
Speaker 1: door to GB, which is in the same building. I'm

302
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 1: speaking into you now and just go to the car

303
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,760
Speaker 1: and said, NaHF this, I'm not going on that stupid show.

304
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 1: It just walks next door to GB. So now I

305
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,359
Speaker 1: have again like just call myr like Mark Latham ground

306
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,439
Speaker 1: zero and I'm just there again. And so we go,

307
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do?

308
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 1: And we have a We put our heads together, and

309
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 1: Peter Meek and the legendary news man is there, Sarah Harris,

310
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,639
Speaker 1: we're o putting her heads together, and we go, you

311
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 1: know what, We're gonna do the old TV classic. We're

312
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 1: going to do the empty chair. So we're going to

313
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: have Paul and Hanson come in, sit down. We're gonna

314
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: have an empty chair where Mark Latham should be and say,

315
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 1: all right, what's going on here? Where is he? Meanwhile, however,

316
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 1: at the same time, Meakhan says, you know what, you're

317
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 1: gonna do Joe, I said, I think I can guess.

318
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,200
Speaker 1: Peter hands me my microphone, gets me a camo and

319
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,159
Speaker 1: we go next door to do GB for me to

320
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 1: buttonhole Mark lath As he's heading next door and say,

321
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 1: what are you doing? You meant to be on our show?

322
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 1: And so I do that, and of course when Mark

323
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 1: Latham sees me, it was this strange moment of kind

324
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,640
Speaker 1: of innocence, because of course he thinks we're sort of friends,

325
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 1: and we asked it. I thought we were friends. I'm saying,

326
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: of course he would never do that to me. He's good.

327
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 1: I know Mark. Of course he's going to come on

328
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 1: and on the show. And so I feel a bit

329
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:35,120
Speaker 1: kind of cut as well. And so there, Joe, how

330
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 1: are you? I said, Okay, Mart, what are you doing?

331
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: Why aren't you You're in the wrong building. Why aren't

332
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 1: you n I don't think I never said I was

333
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 1: going to do that. Blah blah blah blah blah. He's

334
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,879
Speaker 1: probably right again, he doesn't lie about this like you

335
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 1: know it say, as if I was going to do

336
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 1: that stupid show. It may be that we were told

337
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 1: by someone else that that he was going to do it.

338
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,400
Speaker 1: When he hadn't agreed to it or who knows, But anyway,

339
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: there I am, yet again in the middle of a scrum,

340
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 1: face to face with Mark Latham during yet another snaffo,

341
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 1: another crack, the shits, another melt and whatever you want

342
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: to call it, and so off he goes into the wild.

343
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 1: It's kind of like watching a large angry lion chase

344
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 1: after an antelope. And again these things just go on

345
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: and on and on. He joins one note, he's doing terrible,

346
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,959
Speaker 1: you know, it's doing ridiculous things. He had the thing

347
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,679
Speaker 1: where he you know, buttonhold Julia Gillard for sixty minutes.

348
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: That did not go well, especially since she was actually

349
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 1: a supporter of his and had the sort of same

350
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 1: exchange with her that I had with him. She goes, Okay, Mark,

351
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 1: how are you in the rames to me? So again

352
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: there's all this klma floating around. He's going around again

353
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: stuff I really don't like. I don't care about the

354
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 1: sex thing, but going around and you know, harassing people

355
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,680
Speaker 1: in Southwest Sydney who don't speak English and complaining about

356
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: the fact that they can't speak English, and of course

357
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,880
Speaker 1: they can't understand him because they can't speak English. I'm

358
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 1: not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying his asshole. But again,

359
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: so all this stuff happens, and then he has a

360
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 1: crack at Alex Greenwich, who is the MP for Sydney,

361
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: the state MP for Sydney in the new South Wales Parliament.

362
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 1: He's openly gay, and again they seem to have had

363
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,119
Speaker 1: a previously okay kind of relationship. But Latham says some

364
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: stuff or whatever about whatever it is Martigraph, something I

365
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,439
Speaker 1: don't know, and Alex Greenwich cracks it and says on

366
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: social media is a disgusting human being, and Lathan basically,

367
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 1: I'm disgusting. I'm not the one who's you know, sticking

368
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 1: my hohoha into other men's and everyone's like whoa. That

369
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 1: escalated quickly, and Alex got just absolutely just pounded with abuse,

370
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 1: just pounded with abuse like it was horrible, and he

371
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: got really really affected by really screwed up his you know,

372
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 1: just horrible for them, absolutely horrible for them. He ends

373
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: up taking landon to court. Anyway, how do I know

374
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 1: all this because I'm the guy who's sent to talk

375
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 1: to Alex Greenwich about this experience and how he got

376
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 1: through it. So yet again I'm there in Alex Greenwich's

377
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 1: flat in King's Cross talking to him and his husband

378
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: about how he got through it all. And you know,

379
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 1: watching this guy, you know, still really emotional, this before

380
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 1: he'd won the court case, but while it was sort

381
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: of still in play, and just saying why he felt

382
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,239
Speaker 1: a cat to do it because it was such an

383
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 1: absolute punished And then of course when he wins the

384
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: court case, you know, my wife is doing all the

385
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: stuff for a Quality Australia and Alex Gredrich is working

386
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,239
Speaker 1: with to get all this legislation up and this of

387
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: course in the course of this, that's when Chris Min's,

388
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: a beloved friend of mine, the Premier of New South Wales,

389
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 1: gets up in Parliament just recently in the last week

390
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 1: or two and says that, you know, Latham is just

391
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: awful and beyond the pale. And this is before all

392
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: this other stuff has come out there again, this is

393
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: before all the sex have come out and the claims

394
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: of abuse or you know, derogatory behavior have been made

395
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: by his former partner. And then on the very day

396
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: and again there's so much more, but you just wouldn't

397
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,159
Speaker 1: live there. On the very day then all this breaks

398
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 1: that morning, Mark Latham is is in the Daily Mail

399
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: complaining on the public record that sky News is too woke.

400
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 1: Mark Lath says sky.

401
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: News is too wok like this is and again, can

402
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 2: you how can you not like someone says something like that,

403
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: It's just mind blow He says, it's too woke, And

404
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: why did you say it's too woke?

405
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: He says it's too woke because sky News let go

406
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: of a presenter had some pretty out there views and

407
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: accusing them of not supporting free speech enough. And again

408
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: he has a crack at another host on sky News

409
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: who was a really good mate of his, which I

410
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: think was just wrong and uncalled for and much worse

411
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: than sexting. But it's just Mark Laith and being Mark Laith.

412
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: But of course the show he's talking about and the

413
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 1: person who is no longer there, it's the show I'm on.

414
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: It's the show that I'm going to be on again tonight,

415
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, filling in for so yet again Mark Latham

416
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 1: is just right there. So I'm reading this article. People

417
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: are sending me this article, you know, and there there

418
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: yet again there's Mark Latham and me.

419
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 3: That's it's going to be.

420
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: The name of my memoir in fact, Mark Latham and me,

421
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 1: and so it's right there. And so this is the

422
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: last thing that Mark Latham does before his universe explodes.

423
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: Yet again, with all these allegations that come out, the

424
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: last thing is on the record doing is saying that

425
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 1: Sky News is two woke, and I reckon, There's just

426
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: got to be something in there. So the big inn

427
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: out story this week is our man in Beijing, Anthony Albanezi,

428
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: has gone to China to meet with President Jijingping and

429
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: ask him if he could please stop conducting live fire

430
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: exercises in Australian waters, to which the Chinese president said

431
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,479
Speaker 1: hell no. But what actually goes into preparing a massive

432
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: overseas trip like this for a prime minister? Well, I

433
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: thought i'd ask someone who's done it. He's a former

434
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: advisor to Prime Minister Julia Gillard. He's an old friend

435
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: of mine and a current friend of mine. His name

436
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: is Darren Barnette, he joins us. Now, welcome to the

437
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 1: real story. Dasbo.

438
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

439
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 1: Joe.

440
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 3: It's lovely to see you, lovely to be on, lovely

441
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: to have you now. You worked as a press sect

442
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 3: for Julia Gillard while she was PM. You arec coompanying

443
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: her on many overseas trips, not China, which is important

444
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 3: because we don't want anyone who's talking about China, well

445
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: we're talking about Toad, but also we don't want anyone

446
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 3: who is so we say, compromised by Chinese forces, but

447
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 3: China adjacent you come to all these trips in Southeast

448
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: Asia and other countries. Firstly, what goes into prepping a

449
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 3: leader who's going overseas. Obviously you're going through what is

450
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 3: going to be said in these closed door bilateral face

451
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 3: to face meetings. Obviously you will have had a team

452
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 3: of diplomats and then Prime ministerial advisers working out with

453
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: your Chinese or your other foreign counterparts what's going to

454
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 3: be raised, and then of course what's going to be

455
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: said at the end of it that you can all

456
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: agree on. So talk us through all that stuff. Well,

457
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 3: the point is that you don't put your leader in

458
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: a difficult position. So you determine what the topics are

459
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 3: going to be, and there will be things that are

460
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 3: in and things that are out. It appears on the

461
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 3: current trip that live fire exercises in the Tasman Sea

462
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 3: were in Yep but the sale of the Port of

463
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 3: Darwin was out.

464
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: So you have a.

465
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 3: Dialogue, and there's all these wonderful terms in diplomacy. Please

466
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 3: that it's not just a dialogue.

467
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: And dialogue is one of those wonderful terms.

468
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: You also have a lot of consensus, a lot of consensus, yes,

469
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: mutual respect, mutual respect, good faith.

470
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: Good faith, good faith, agreement, good faith, negotiations good just

471
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: good faith or faith. There's a lot of acknowledgment, a

472
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: lot of acknowledgment, yeah.

473
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 3: Because acknowledgment doesn't really give a value. Judgment, yes, so

474
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: you do it. You're a ton of acknowledgment. You do

475
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 3: a lot of non intervention or intervention, yes. And all

476
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 3: of that is rehearsed in a sense that when you

477
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: get on the plane with the boss, the foreign fairs advisor,

478
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: usually the senior press sick, and they'd probably be about

479
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 3: often up to ten people in a traveling party, but

480
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: three or four of them sit around with the boss

481
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: and you just determine what is going to be discussed

482
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: and how it's going to be raised, and who at

483
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: the table will raise it. There's also different types of meetings.

484
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 3: I know, for example, Prime Minster Albanese was trying to

485
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 3: get a hold of Trump at the G seven. He's

486
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 3: not part of the G seven, so it's a side

487
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 3: meeting exactly.

488
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: This is what every can I just say on this

489
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: because this is a particular bugbear of mine. But everyone says, oh,

490
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: you know, Albo could only get a side meeting with

491
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: Trump at the G seven. It's like, yes, because we're

492
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: not in the G seven. Correct, Therefore we can't get

493
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: a G seven meeting because we're not in it. That's right,

494
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: and in fact it's it's too Australia's credit that we

495
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: were invited there by Canada to be there so we

496
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: could have that meeting, and then of course World War

497
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: three nearly happened and Trump had to go anyway you can.

498
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 3: You can never meet the Dalai Lama, for example, but

499
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: you might just happen to bump into him.

500
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: There a coffee station corridor meeting.

501
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: A brush past is a thing, a pull aside is

502
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: a thing.

503
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: Well, Kevin Rudd and I'm not sure if it was

504
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: a brush past or a pull aside, but he had

505
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: something with Donald Trump in the foyer of a mansion earlier.

506
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: This year, game of handball. I think it was, or there.

507
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: Were hands involved anyway.

508
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: So but what you see, there's a range of things

509
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 3: that need to be discussed that is hammered out in advance.

510
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: Whatever is going to be agreed upon will be hammered

511
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: out in advance. Yes, and it's up to your team

512
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,719
Speaker 3: to prepare your boss, and particularly with a lot of

513
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: Southeast Asian countries in China, saving face is incredibly important.

514
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 3: So the way that you approach that diplomatic arrangement just

515
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 3: the theater. You need to show respect, You need to

516
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 3: you can't embarrass anybody or put them in a position

517
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: that they can't or they feel that they cannot back

518
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: down from. So it's very much it's kind of almost

519
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: a smoke and mirrors a cloak. Conduct absolutely like a theater.

520
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 3: It's like a kobucha dance. So again, this is what

521
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 3: I find frustrating when people say, well, Albo should have

522
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: just you know, thumped his fist and said to Jip,

523
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 3: you know, how dare you conduct these exercises in our

524
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: waters or how dare you send these spy ships.

525
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: That is simply not how these meetings work, and they

526
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: can't work that way.

527
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: You can do it once, you can shirtfront him once

528
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: rect but it's a lot of China.

529
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: But again, you do that once, you never get another

530
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: meeting again. Obviously China will throw up all sorts of

531
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: trade embargoes. They're very, very touchy on these things. But

532
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: again that's not how these meetings work and it's not

533
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: what they're designed to achieve. Everything that they are intended

534
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: to achieve at the end has been worked out beforehand,

535
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: including the issues it will be run.

536
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: So there's a big military exercise, a joint military exercise

537
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: about to begin, and it might even be underway sort

538
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: of Northern Australia.

539
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: Talas Man Saber.

540
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 3: China's going to keep an eye on it, of course,

541
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: and they'll be nearby and reminding us and the Americans

542
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 3: that they have a presence in this part of the world.

543
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: So there would have been dialogue about that, what's appropriate

544
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 3: and what's not. Australia is annoyed that we were not

545
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 3: given warning of the live fire exercise. I imagine that

546
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 3: was raised. I imagine China politely said, we acknowledge that,

547
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: and I suspect it's no more. I don't think they

548
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 3: did any more than acknowledge it.

549
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: Well, this is and this is another really interesting thing.

550
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: I want to bring up because that was raised, Albo

551
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: did raise it, and China did acknowledge it. And this

552
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: is really because all these things that are kind of

553
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: like a rawsch act test. I think it's called where

554
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, you show someone an image and it can

555
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: be one or two things. You know that's you know,

556
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: is it two faces facing each other or is it

557
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: a goblet? You know, everyone knows the thing, and the

558
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: language that's used at the end of that is very

559
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: carefully and deliberately designed so that either side can see

560
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: what they want, can take from it what they want

561
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: to see. And this actually happened in the reportage of

562
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: Albow's own comments after he said that yes he did

563
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: raise that with the Chinese. Yes, it was ignowledge, and

564
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: you had some news court papers saying, well, the Chinese

565
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 1: just told Albo to get stuffed and they weren't going

566
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: to give any more advanced notice of live fire exercise.

567
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: And the camera times, I think it was carried virtually

568
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: the opposite thing on the front page saying the Chinese

569
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: said that they would better inform Elbow of or Australia

570
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: of its live fire exercise. Now what better informed means?

571
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: Who knows what's better inform off a very low base.

572
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: That's right, So everything slightly relative, isn't it. And therefore, yeah,

573
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: last time we told you absolutely nothing. This time maybe

574
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: Australia wouldn't know what to expect next time. But whether

575
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: it's a promise that we will be told exactly what's

576
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: coming and when I doubt that they would know that,

577
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: of course not. That's right.

578
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: In fact, they would have said, and I doubt that

579
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: we would expect them to do that.

580
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: No, because we would acknowledge their right to conduct these

581
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: live fire exercise as stay's due from time to time

582
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: in this region and indeed in other regions around the world,

583
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: and they will let.

584
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: Us know in good faith their actions as they say fit,

585
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 3: but it will be mutually beneficial.

586
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll find common ground and you know, disagree

587
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: where we must now. Of course, friends of ours have

588
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: accompanied prime ministers past to China, and that is kind

589
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: of it's kind of a different level again, above any

590
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: overseas trip, just because it is the superpower in the

591
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: region and it is run, by let's face it, an

592
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: authoritarian communist government.

593
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 3: Well that's a matter of interpretation, Joe.

594
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: You don't acknowledge thenowledge it so what's it like. You've

595
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: got some pretty good stories from people who.

596
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 3: I'll tell one of my stories first, and then I'll

597
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 3: tell a story about China. I remember one time I

598
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,239
Speaker 3: was running late. It was an international trip, and I

599
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: left my wallet behind where I was staying in Canberra.

600
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: I managed to spend several days overseas with no access

601
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: to money, no identification. Just was it kind of a

602
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: stateless person in a sense. There's a diplomatic passport that

603
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: you don't see. All of that is taken care of

604
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: by others on the trip, by.

605
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: The embassy or by people Australia side, or a bit

606
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: of both.

607
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: And when the plane lands, the boss will come down,

608
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 3: they'll wave at the crowd, the TV cameras will roll,

609
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: but you sit in the plane for another ten minutes.

610
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: Then you shuffle off getting a bus go to the

611
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: next event. So no customs, No, absolutely no, you do not.

612
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 3: I've never seen my diplomatic paths like you're.

613
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: Kind of always airside.

614
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, they give you the option to get your passport

615
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 3: at the end with a big clip through it or something.

616
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: Don't really know that fuss, so you probably can keep

617
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: it as a memento.

618
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: I just chose not to, so you get a tempera

619
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: because I know people obviously who do have the special

620
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: diplomatic passports and they are amazing. They just get you

621
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: in everywhere.

622
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 3: You can't use it outside of you you've but it's

623
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: these ways.

624
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: Is like a temperate almost like a diplomatic visa or whatever.

625
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: Like it's just a one time only.

626
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: You think it's while you're in the employee of the PM.

627
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: So it's probably tied up with your security clearance and

628
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 3: a bunch of other things, but you don't see it's not.

629
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: Pertly throughout your entire employment with the PM. You've got

630
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: this special but.

631
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 3: You don't have it in the hands, and you can

632
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 3: get it at the end if you choose. And they

633
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 3: literally put a paper clip of a big chunk hole

634
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: put a hole through the middle of it, so you

635
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: can't try and use it.

636
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the commemorative cards you get from a casino,

637
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: they punch it. I mean it's it slightly different. Both

638
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: have a hole in them.

639
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: Correct, So you live this odd in the shadows kind

640
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: of arrangement. So the other thing that's interesting, and this

641
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 3: came up a little bit in the last forty eight

642
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 3: hours that when the entourage or the leader in the group.

643
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: Then they're having their proper meetings. The press pack will

644
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: go with the press second others they might go to

645
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 3: the Great Wall, they might go here, they might go there.

646
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: And it was interesting to note that the Australian media

647
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: were questioned, they were.

648
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: They were turned away, they had Chinese police officers.

649
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: Well, they tried to take their footage, and then in

650
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 3: the end they backed down. As my understanding, because the

651
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,479
Speaker 3: press all had clearance. They weren't just wandering around. They'd

652
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: had they were authorized to do everything they were doing.

653
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 3: Because of course we all know what happened to chang Lai.

654
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: You don't want to do anything you come with. Your

655
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 3: average street copper in China wouldn't know that that classification exists.

656
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 3: They just see a bunch of tourists filming where it says,

657
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 3: don't film here, and they've got cameras that look professional,

658
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 3: that look like you're a troublemaker, and so they hauled

659
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 3: them in. The other interesting one was there's usually what

660
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: they call a pickfac at the start, where generally no audio,

661
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 3: they will allow TV camera, which they call a pool camera,

662
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: and that then gets shared to all the other networks

663
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 3: and a couple of photographers to take stills. My understanding

664
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 3: of what the least recent trip. The Nine Newspapers photographer

665
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 3: was banned, and I read a story I think was

666
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 3: Paul Sackel wrote a story Inmates in the Age that

667
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: they are pretty annoyed that it was only Albanezey's official

668
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: photographer and Chinese press were allowed in.

669
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: Right, and that would mean a Chinese government call, presumably.

670
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely to be honest, I wasn't that surprised by it,

671
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: but I do understand why there's some outrage.

672
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: But I suppose I'm almost quite glad that that happened,

673
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: just because it shows that, despite all the smiles and everything,

674
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: China is not a benign state. We've got it. I

675
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: agree that we've got to cooperate with it. I agree

676
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: that we have to where we must and disagree where

677
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: we can. But and we should, you know, we should

678
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: get all the money we can out of China while

679
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 1: making sure that we've got other options and exploring India

680
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: and stuff like that as well. But it does just

681
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: remind you that these are some heavy, heavy dudes, and

682
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: it is this is a totalitarian state, I e. This

683
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: is a state that tries to control everything its citizens do,

684
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: everything that's perview and certainly everything that foreigners do.

685
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 3: Correct and certainly in my day, and I can't imagine

686
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 3: it's changed. You were not allowed to keep your phone

687
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 3: if you came back from a trip to China. There

688
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 3: was just assumed that they would have found a way

689
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: to infiltrate.

690
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: If you're a staffer for a prime minister or a

691
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: senior government vigure these days.

692
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 3: It was in those days. Sorry it was blackberries, but

693
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 3: new BlackBerry. Yeah, couldn't keep the old one.

694
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: Gone. Wow, that's fascinating. They really are everywhere, aren't they.

695
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: So we've got all those big visuals you were telling

696
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: us another story about just the incredible contrast. It's a

697
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: bit like sort of Pyongyang where you've got this amazing

698
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: skylight and it's almost literally two dimensional, like.

699
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: I wonder if it's made of the Pyongyang.

700
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: But China obviously very three dimensional, very very heavy, but

701
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: also they do this incredible spectacle. Channaman square the whole bit.

702
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: Talk us through that because there was an interesting experience

703
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: there too.

704
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 3: Isn't he an old press THATCT made of mine? And

705
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: a friend of yours? He was with Prime Minister Gillard

706
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: and they had an official function. They arrived, they went

707
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: in through the people's gate, was a big sort of

708
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 3: forty foot by thirty foot door or entrance. There's a flyover,

709
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 3: there's a military parade, and yeah, let's be honest to

710
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: show of strength.

711
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 1: That's absolutely so. All those images you would have seen

712
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: on TV marching in perfect unite.

713
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 3: Twenty one gun salute the shebang.

714
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: Aside kind of disciplined. Do we got no hope.

715
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 3: We don't have a spare twenty one gun, So I

716
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 3: don't think that's our problem. But the you go in,

717
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: you have the meeting or the dinner. In this case,

718
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: at the end, I'm told it's things are either on

719
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 3: or they're off. That contrast is stark that by the end,

720
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 3: all the kind of most of the stuff left, The

721
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: big ceremonial entrance was closed. It was now just one

722
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 3: standard door to leave. And Premier League, one of the

723
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 3: leaders of the largest or most populous nation, he's standing

724
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 3: at the door and that's it, and he's saying on

725
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 3: the oh, thanks for coming, hope to see you soon.

726
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: At the end of it, there was no no one else.

727
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: Was with him.

728
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 3: It was just him and he individually said goodbye and

729
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: thank you to every guest on their way out of

730
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: out of the area where the dinner was. And then

731
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 3: all the lights were out, so when you walk out,

732
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 3: there's one door, one guy, and then there's no lights on,

733
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 3: there's no military nothing. This is done, like the event done.

734
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: And that's kind of again like that sort of totalitarian attitude,

735
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's all or it's nothing, and whatever it

736
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: is is completely and utterly controlled, right down to you know,

737
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: the boots on the absolutely. I think part of it

738
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: is for it is that show of strength, but part

739
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: of it is just a common mentality that once that

740
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: moment has passed, it's done, it's gone. They don't really

741
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 1: you know, they don't linger. That's just not the way

742
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: that they do business. That once the event is done. Yeah,

743
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: no one's milling around having a chat, you know, catching

744
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: up with.

745
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: Not particularly nostalgic about it. The twenty one guns have

746
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 3: been fired off, they get.

747
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: And so how do you think Albo will be seeing

748
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: this is sort of getting towards the end of the

749
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: trip now or will be once this goes out? Would

750
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: this be considered a success by the government. The fact

751
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: that the Chinese didn't arc up about us buying back

752
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: the Port of Darwin, the fact that there was a

753
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: form of words that both sides could live with, over

754
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: the conducting or advanced warning of live fire exercises, you know,

755
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: trade with the green steel that we're going to export

756
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: once we invent whatever the hell that is.

757
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 3: You know, the great white whale's.

758
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: To go with all that green hydrogen. But and then,

759
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: and of course the boost tourism from China to Australia

760
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: was another objective. Is he going to see it as

761
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: a success or is it just kind of just carrying on,

762
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: just kind of keeping that relationship going.

763
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 3: I think it's a multi layered answer, I think, and

764
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: of itself in isolation, it's been a very successful trip

765
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 3: that he was very well received. Our relations with China

766
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: are much warmer than they were under the previous government.

767
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 3: You've seen trade sanctions removed. The language and even the

768
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: body language of Chinese leadership towards Australian leadership has been

769
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: very positive and very warm. I think what will be

770
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 3: interesting will be what does Trump think of this trip?

771
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: Next question?

772
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: With that that feeds into that broader narrative of and

773
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 3: I think unfortunate for Prime Minister urban easy. But you

774
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 3: haven't met Trump. But you've been to China, You've spent

775
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 3: six days there, You've met Chinese leadership a bunch of times.

776
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 3: What's going on? Who are your real friends here? And

777
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 3: I think we're trying to walk in to you gum.

778
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 3: At the same time, our biggest trading partner is incredibly important,

779
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: tourism is incredibly important, Foreign students are incredibly important. But

780
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 3: when push comes to shove, if there is drama in

781
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 3: Taiwan or the South China Sea, I suspect it's going

782
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 3: to be America who we lean on for ongoing support.

783
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: The US alliance will be revived if and when it's necessary.

784
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 3: But you don't want to have to say that while

785
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 3: you're standing there in the People's.

786
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: Hall, nor And how do you think there is a

787
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: genuine rift between Albo and Trump or Australia and America

788
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: at the moment? Or do you think it's just a

789
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: matter of the logistics there. We had a meeting that

790
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: was canceled by circumstances at neither side could control, and

791
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of trying to find time for

792
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: another one. Or do you think that Trump is going

793
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: a bit frosty honest because of past comments by Kevin

794
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: rad or Anthony Alberanesi, or our closeness with China or whatever.

795
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: Post election, he was very effusive in his praise of

796
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: Albanzi and said that he'd never heard of Peter Dutton's

797
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 3: pretty instructive.

798
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: Very fine man, very fine man.

799
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 3: I think you called him, yeah, And I think with Trump,

800
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 3: he's obviously fairly binary character. You're in or you're out.

801
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: I think we're in. But that meeting, that first meeting

802
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 3: is important and it should be a priority for the

803
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 3: government to get that organized.

804
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: Darren Barnette, fantastic insights as always, love to catch up

805
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: with you as always, Thanks so much for joining us

806
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: on the real story. Thank you, And just quickly before

807
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: we go, I mentioned this leaked treasury document that has

808
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: got everybody talking, well every geek talking. This is an

809
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: amazing story and just a lesson in what not to

810
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: do if you're a bureaucrat. Firstly, don't tell the truth,

811
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: and to their credit, they tried not to do that,

812
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: but an ABC journal put in an FOI request for

813
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: all this budget information, and Treasury very diligently goes about

814
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: erasing anything that might be relevant or important or interesting

815
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: or newsworthy or useful to the journo and basically sends

816
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: him a blank document and the journal goes, oh typical,

817
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: and he's suspicious because he gets it within two weeks,

818
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: which is like a land speed record for the government bureaucracy.

819
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: And he then he thinks, oh, bloody Treasury, you know

820
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: there's nothing good here. What am I supposed to do

821
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 1: with this? Yet again? Oh, well worth a shot. Doesn't

822
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: think too much more about it. Then he gets another

823
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: email from Treasury saying, please delete the document we sent

824
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: you immediately. Tear it up, burn it, bury it, forget it,

825
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: just destroy it immediately. So it actually says that could

826
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: you please urgently we send you the wrong document apologies

827
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: for that, could you please destroy it immediately, and all copies,

828
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh what what am I doing this for?

829
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: And they send him the new one, the proper one,

830
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: and he's still going, there's still nothing in here, like,

831
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: I don't understand what's the what are they so worried about?

832
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: Actually I hadn't said anything, And sure enough both of

833
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: the documents have the exact same stuff redacted deleted, all

834
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: the interesting stuff he was after. Eventually it's another colleague

835
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: of his who literally runs this kind of thing exactly

836
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: comparing documents for document trying to find any differences between them.

837
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: They find that, yes, the contents, the actual contents of

838
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: the document are exactly the same, i Eate, all the

839
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: interesting stuff has been scrubbed, but the table of contents

840
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: is different. And so there's actually headings and references to

841
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: stuff that isn't there, but the headings tell you what's there.

842
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like when you lose an arm.

843
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I don't know what that's like,

844
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: but just go with me. You lose an arm to

845
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: a chainsaw and people say that they still can feel

846
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: it there. It's like a phantom limb. So there's this

847
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: phantom copy that you can't see, but you can see

848
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: the headline alluding to it, and that tells things like

849
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: if we're going to address the budget deficit, we're going

850
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: to have to raise taxes or we're going to have

851
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: to cut spending. It's like, oh my god, that's actually

852
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: just maths, like that is just the fact. And then

853
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: there's stuff like oh, we're not going to meet the

854
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: one point two million housing target. It's like, oh my god.

855
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: But Chris Mint said that we weren't going to meet

856
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: that target fast year. It's no way, absolutely not. On

857
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: the front page of the Telegraph, hard to miss. And

858
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 1: so there's this whole thing about oh secret Treasury plans,

859
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: and yet they're hiding in plain sight, and not just

860
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: literally in the document they said by accident, but in

861
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: everything everyone knows about how budgets work, like if you

862
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: want to get to a surplus, you have to either

863
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: cut spending or increase taxes. And the housing target that

864
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: Australia's largest state has already said, there is absolutely no

865
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: way we're getting to it. And to think that Treasury

866
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: could have simply said this stuff all along, but of

867
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: course that would be telling the truth, which is the

868
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: first golden rule that bureaucrats must learn to never ever do.

869
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: That's all we have time for this week. Thank you

870
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. If you want to send

871
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: us any feedback or you want to get us to

872
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: look into something, you've got any questions, send us an

873
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: email at the Real Story at Novapodcasts dot com dot au,

874
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: or you can hit me up on Instagram at Joe

875
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: Underscore Hildebrand. Slide into my DMS not in a kind

876
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: of Mark Latham way. I don't do that anymore. You

877
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,919
Speaker 1: can also check me out in all the news Court

878
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: papers every Monday and Saturday, and make sure you leave

879
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: us a review of five stars or more. If you've

880
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: got a thing that goes up to six stars ten,

881
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: just go for the stars and we'll see you next week.