1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Weary dunelot stand Our feature for me was an extraordinary 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: combination of both moral courage and physical strength. Weary Dunlop 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: loses it. 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: And says, men are risking their lives to keep you alive. 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 3: We built up this system, We've gone to such effort. 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 4: If you keep pulling. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 3: That out, you will not only die like a yellow rat, 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 3: you will deserve to die like a yellow rat. 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 5: I'm Andrew Rule is his life in crimes, and today 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 5: is a red letter day. We are honored to have 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 5: a guest on the show. Benefit Simon's is one of 12 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 5: the biggest names in Australian journalism and in writing a 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 5: series of books that have sold by the truckload. He's 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 5: good at it. He's a good bloke, he talks well. 15 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 5: And he's going to tell us about the latest of 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 5: his long line of bestsellers, and it concerns a great 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 5: Australian late, Weary Dunlop. This week, Peter, you're going to 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 5: tell us all about Weary Dunlop, the great hero, the 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 5: great war hero. But next week you're going to tell 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 5: us about a very dark chapter that involves Weary Dunlop, 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 5: where he's best man the best man at his wedding 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 5: was murdered. Is that roughly right, Peter. 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you what I like. The introduction about 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 4: me good. Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. Now you're more 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 4: than kind Andrew. 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: Thank you, and it's nice to connect because I've read 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: your stuff for years and listen to you of course 28 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: on this mighty podcast. Look the Weary Dunlop story, I was. 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: I suppose I connected with Weary Dunlop and recognized the 30 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: name from very early on, both because my parents both 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: my parents served in the Second World War was bel 32 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: A la Maine and the Battle of Milne Bay and 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: Finchhaven and Dumpoo. One was at the slash physiot putting 34 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: those soldiers together, so I had, you know, the name resonated. 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: And also I was fascinated that Weary Dunlop was a Wallaby. 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: So I was in the wallacks for about five minutes, 37 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: but just enough to get my paper stamped. But Weary Dunlop, 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: I know the Wallabies of my generation had talked about 39 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: weir He Dunelop because he turned up in the dressing 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: room one time and a game that they played I 41 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: think in Victoria, and so I'd always known the name. 42 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: My publishers came to me in late nineties and said, 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: you've got to do this book. 44 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 4: I resisted. I resisted. 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: I resisted, and then a couple of years ago I began, 46 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: And if I may say, whatever people think about how 47 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: I've done the story, the story of his life is staggering, unbelievable. 48 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 4: What he accomplished was. 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 5: He as good a rugby player, a sportsman as he 50 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 5: was at everything else. He clearly was a superior piece 51 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 5: of gear. 52 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 1: I suspect he was not particularly skilled, because how could 53 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: he be skilled when the sixteenth game of rugby he 54 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: played was in the Wallaby So for whatever skills I got, 55 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: I started I was eleven years old and refined over 56 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: the next thirteen years before I got into the Wallabies. 57 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: So when I was briefly in the Wallabies, I was 58 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: six foot six, which is two meters tall in the 59 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: old money, and I was big. I was a big 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: man in the Wallabies in the nineteen eighties early nineties. 61 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: Dunlop started out in nineteen thirty two and he was 62 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: six foot four I think that's about one hundred and 63 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: ninety five centimeters, yes, And he was famous for the fact. 64 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: After his first game, they said, well, where did your 65 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: strength come from? And he said, on the farm in Banella. 66 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: I could hold two with bags, each weighing two hundred 67 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: and twelve pounds, one in each arm. And he said, 68 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: but that's nothing. There's a bloke at home that can 69 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: hold another one with his teeth. He was probably guilding 70 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: the lily size aspect. He was physically strong, and at 71 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: that point he was already studying medicine. So when I 72 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: hit blokes, I aimed to hit him just under the ribs. 73 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: He aimed to hit him on the gall bladder. 74 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 5: Oh did he He knew a little bit about anatomy. 75 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 5: And he was such a brilliant child. He was a 76 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 5: kid on the farm up there. He could have ended 77 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 5: up being a good farmer or a bad farmer, or 78 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 5: anything else. But he was always very clever, ambitious and 79 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 5: hard working, wasn't he. 80 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: He had an elder brother, and the idea was, the 81 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: original idea, was that his brother was so smart he'd 82 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: go away. They couldn't afford much to educate them, but 83 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: they'd put it into the older brother and weary would 84 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: stay on the farm. But then one of the teachers, 85 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: I think at Banella High took his father aside and 86 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: his mother and said, look, your son is seriously gifted. 87 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: You've really got to keep going with his education because 88 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: who knows what he might become. And from there he 89 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: got an apprenticeship with a pharmacist with a local pharmacist, 90 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: did so well. He then got a scholarship to study medicine. 91 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: He went to Ormond College, the famous Ormond College at 92 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: the University of Melbourne, did brilliantly well, and then just 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: on speck Banjo Patterson might have it in one of 94 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: his famous poets, Fancy Overflow. He right away he applied 95 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: for a scholarship to the Royal College of Surgeons in London. 96 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: And you were not meant to apply for this until 97 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: you'd actually got your medical degree. He did it beforehand. 98 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: He was so brilliant in fitting the exam that he 99 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: won a scholarship. So not long after he'd fallen in 100 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: love with a beautiful young woman by the name of Helen, 101 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: who lived in Tuak Road, Turak and was a very 102 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: high class, well above him. He goes away to England 103 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: and lands in England in nineteen thirty seven to study 104 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: surgery and while he's there he's playing rugby. He's already 105 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: played nine matches for the Wallabies, and he'd had to 106 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: decline going on a six month tour of South Africa. 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,679 Speaker 4: In my day, you'd go away on a six week tour. 108 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: You'd fly somewhere and probably in fact it wasn't even 109 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: as much as six weeks, four. 110 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: Or five weeks. 111 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: But in his day'd have to get on a ship 112 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: and on a ship for a month or two before going. 113 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: And because of his medical studies, he'd had to stand 114 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: down from the tour of South Africa. But he was 115 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: still in that in that vein. He plungs rugby in England, 116 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: but mostly he studies to become a surgeon, and then 117 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: of course the Second World War breaks out, which is 118 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: where he made his true fame. 119 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what most people know about him. Where did 120 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 5: he study s rugby? Was it at university? 121 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: At university he was rooming with a bloke from Queensland, yep, 122 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: and he was playing Ossie rules and this bloke in 123 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: Ormond College looked at where he and goes six foot 124 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: four seventeen stone, mate, you're born to play You're born 125 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: to play rugby. So his first game was with the 126 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: University fourth fifteen. After the first game they put him 127 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: in the third fifteen, then they put him in the 128 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: second fifth, then the first fifteen. And he's so good 129 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: and so strong that he was picked to play for 130 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: the Australian University side, which is a famous side made 131 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: up at the best university. And he then played I 132 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: think from there played against the touring All Blacks and 133 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: then from there makes his way into the Test team. 134 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 5: I see, well, it's a fable rise, but in his 135 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 5: case eclipsed by his other achievements and the fact he 136 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 5: survived the war and did unbelievable things during the war. 137 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 5: I know what he did during the war has impressed 138 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 5: you all over again because you've been through it line 139 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 5: by line. What stands out for you about his war 140 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 5: service and where did it take him? 141 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: Look? You and I Andrew, we have written about heroes 142 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: in our time, and I have often wondered if how 143 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: you know like you look at it. I don't know 144 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: if you wondered, but how do you reckon you go 145 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: in the trenches at Gallipoli. 146 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 4: I'd like to think that when. 147 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: The shells were landing and the bullets were flying, I'd 148 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: like to think I'd be the calm, courageous, brave one 149 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: working out what to. 150 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 4: Do, where to go, how to do it. 151 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: I have a sneaky suspicion I might be the blake 152 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: weeping at the bottom of the trench. Exactly, I don't know, 153 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: but I have a feeling that might be me. And 154 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: my previous book Albert jacka VC from also from Victoria. 155 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: He was a bloke who had a preternatural calm when 156 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: the bullets started to fly, knew what to do and 157 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: how to do it, and he rose accordingly where he dunlops. 158 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: Standout feature for me was an extraordinary combination of both 159 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: moral courage and physical strength that he first finds himself. 160 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: He goes to Tabrook and he's a very well educated man. 161 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: He immediately he'd been in the militia back in Victoria. 162 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: So he comes in with the rank of captain and 163 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: he's in charge of sorting out the hospitals in Jerusalem 164 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: and in the Middle East before the first troops arrived 165 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: for the Second World War. He lands into Brook and 166 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: because he's got such ability, they keep wanting him to 167 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: be administrative and he keeps saying, I don't want to 168 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: be an administrative colonel or captain. I want to refine 169 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: my skills, my medical skills. I want to bring them 170 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: to the service of the men. And his particular passion 171 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: was to form a mobile hospital so that when men 172 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: got injured out on the front, it wasn't putting them 173 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: on stretches and bringing them back to Weary. 174 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 4: Weary wanted the mobile hospital. 175 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: Wherever the bullets are flying, Let me get there with 176 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: My hospital will set up in forty five minutes. We'll 177 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: be operating thirty two minutes. After that, we'll have all 178 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: the material with us, and we can save lives. And 179 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: so he did that. He was brilliant into Brook. And 180 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: I've written a book on to Brook, the rats of 181 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: to Brook. It's not a bad thing on a man's 182 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: resume to say out of to Brook. Then you get 183 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: what happened in Greece, where I mean, I was staggered 184 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: by this. In previous books that you had, you had 185 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: twenty seven German divisions invading Greece. Churchill had a treaty 186 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: with Greece which said if Britain's attacked, Greece will help. 187 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: If Greece has attacked, Britain will help. So Greece was attacked. 188 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: Who did Churchill send in the poor bastards of the 189 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: Australian divisions. They were the ones that got sent and 190 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: they were completely overwhelmed, out numbered. Where he was there 191 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: on the front. He gets away from he gets he 192 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: is able to escape, He gets to Crete, he gets 193 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: back to Jerusalem. 194 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 4: They're there. 195 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: He's setting up his mobile hospital. Then the word comes 196 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: basically the Japanese have dropped the bombs on Pearl Harbor. 197 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: There's a danger that Australia is going to be invaded. 198 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: There's the famous battle between our Prime Minister John Curtin 199 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: and the British Prime Minister Churchill as while the troops, 200 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: which were including my father, were on the high seas, 201 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: do they come home to Australia or do they divert 202 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: to Burma to thwart the Japanese westward thrust US towards 203 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: and Churchill. Churchill insisted they go to Burma in the 204 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: service of the British Empire. Was it was our guy 205 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: Curtin who said the famous line. He said, I dare 206 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: say there are many places where Australian troops can be 207 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: of great service in this war, but nowhere will they 208 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: be of such great service as in the Defense of Australia, 209 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: Weary Weary Dunlop who was on the on the orcadis 210 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: one of the fastest ships. They are indeed diverted not 211 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: to Burma. They land on what we know as Indonesia, 212 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: then the Dutch East Indies. They are there in what 213 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: we he's there in what we know as Jakarta, then 214 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: known as Batavia, and they the Japanese invade. He gets 215 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: up into the highlands looking after a hospital. In that 216 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: hospital at that time, one of the most powerful stories 217 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: in the book. They've got all prisoners that have been wounded. 218 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: These are these allies that have been wounded. One of 219 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,119 Speaker 1: them was a bloke by the name of Bill Griffiths, 220 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: and he'd been made for the Japanese. 221 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 4: To crawl through a minefield. 222 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: One of the minds had exploded, had taken out both 223 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: of his eyes, two hands, one leg, and he's there 224 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: in the he's there in the hospital bed. When the 225 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: Japanese arrive. The Japanese officer barks these orders obviously in Japanese, 226 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: to one of the soldiers, basically saying kill him. You know, 227 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: we're not We're not wasting any time any resources, and 228 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: that Weary in the first, not the first, but one 229 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: of the most famous legendary displays of his courage, stands 230 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: in front of the Japanese soldier and he says makes 231 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: it clear. He says, any bayonet that goes through this 232 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: man will have to go through me first. The Japanese 233 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: back off. He saves his life and at this point 234 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: the Australians are then taken Prisoner Weary has a natural leadership. 235 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 1: So the usual rule with combat soldiers if you're in 236 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: an Australian combat unit, is that the commanding officer will 237 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: be a combat officer. Where he was not a combat officer. 238 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: He was a medical officer, and the men wanted him 239 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: to be their commanding officer, and even his fellow officers 240 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: wanted him to be the commanding officer. So he was 241 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: able to using his medical skills his leadership skills while 242 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: they were in Japanese pow camps in the Dutch East 243 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: Indies keep alive. And then finally the Japanese say, all right, 244 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: we want you on the Thai Burma railway. So to 245 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: get there they go through the infamous Cheni prison camp, 246 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: so he's only there for two weeks. Then they go 247 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,239 Speaker 1: to Thailand, and that's when they find themselves on the 248 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: shocking Tai Burma Railway. 249 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 5: Yes, that is where the legend really kicks in. Australians 250 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 5: have heard of his bravery and his efforts to save 251 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 5: fellow Australians and others, Yes, under terrible duress. 252 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: One of the things I try to do in my books, Andrew, 253 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: I'm sure you try to do in yours, But I 254 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: don't fancy myself as an historian. I'm not an expert. 255 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: What I try to do in my books is to 256 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: use my ignorance as a tool. So when I first 257 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: started doing, the first huge book I did was on 258 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: the Kakoda Track, and for all my sins, I didn't 259 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: know how many men were in a platoon, how many 260 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: were in a company, how many are in a battalion. 261 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: So when I do my books, I try to work 262 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: in explanations first, so the reader, what's happening. I don't 263 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: know if you know, but I certainly didn't know much 264 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: about what the Thai Burma Railway was about why the 265 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: Japanese wanted to do it? And the answer is the 266 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: Japanese invaded Southeast Asia. They wanted a Japanese economic prosperity sphere. 267 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 4: It's an extraordinary story. 268 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: But basically, the Japanese had seen Asia colonized by the 269 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: white man, and by the nineteen thirties, nineteen agoing, going 270 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: into the nine and forties, they were basically, well, we're 271 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: not going to do that anymore. If there's going to 272 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: be any colonization going on, well the Japanese that should 273 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: be in command here. So one of the things they 274 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: wanted was the duel in the crown of the British Empire, 275 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,479 Speaker 1: which was India. They wanted to get their forces, their material, 276 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: their resources towards India. How do you get it through 277 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: Thailand and Burmi to build a railway? So they more 278 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: or less drew a line across the map, straight through 279 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: the jungle, straight through the mountains, and they said, how. 280 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 4: Are we going to build it? 281 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: And they use Now this word is no longer kosher, 282 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't use this word. 283 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 4: There are words go out. But they were known at 284 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 4: the time. 285 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: As coolies cl ies, and these were brave strong men 286 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: and women, but Asian men and women that were paid 287 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: just about nothing, given appalling, treated in absolutely appalling manner, 288 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: and bolstering their forces were the pods from England, from Canada, 289 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: from America, from Australia. So where he was in charge 290 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: of Dunlop Force, they were given a part of the 291 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: Thai Burma Railway to build. They march out into the 292 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: jungle appalling conditions, not enough food, shocking heat, shocking humidity, 293 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: shocking malaria and where he is in charge of keeping 294 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: these men alive with very limited resources. And one of 295 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: the things that I found absolutely inspirational in the book 296 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: is he imposed he said, we are Australians. 297 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 4: What do way Australians do well? 298 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: We look after each other very well, and we're all equal, 299 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: and not only under the Southern Cross, but we're all 300 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: equal under the Thailand sun. And one of his POW's 301 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: was the famous Tom Uren, who became a very famous 302 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: labor parliamentarian, briefly I think became deputy Prime minister. 303 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 5: He did heavyweight dogs are in his youth. 304 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: That's right, and a rugby league play for Manly And 305 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: Tom Urren became a parliamentary and I think nineteen fifty 306 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: six and in his maiden speech said basically all I 307 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: am all I represent. I learned from where he Dunlop, 308 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: the way he ran us on the Tibern Morailway, and 309 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: he told the story how on one side of a 310 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: creek on the Tiburn Morailway, the Australian said set up 311 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: their camp, and on the other side of the creek, 312 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: the Brits set up their camp. And initially I think 313 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: there were six hundred in both camps. And he said, 314 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: he told the story that they had a small stip end, 315 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: a small amount of money under the Geneva Convention in 316 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: return for working, where he got all the officers together 317 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: and said, all of you will contribute three quarters of 318 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: the stip. 319 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 4: End you get. 320 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: We're going to put it in a common pool of money, 321 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: and that money will be used to buy food from 322 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: the local traders, so that we can get papaya, so 323 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,479 Speaker 1: we can get bananas, so we can get rice, so 324 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: we can keep the men alive. Some of the officers, 325 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: and one in particular, protested and said, this money for 326 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: when I get back to Australia. I don't want to 327 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: be a part of this. This is not fair. We've 328 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: earned this money. Where officers we've got, we should get 329 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: more money than the men. Weary six foot fourth and 330 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: capable of brawling with the all Blacks said very strongly, 331 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't think you heard me. Okay, this is what 332 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: we are going to do, if this is how we 333 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: are going to do it. So it was where Australians 334 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: we keep each other alive. And it's not that the 335 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: officers get the best, the best of everything. It will 336 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: be in this outfit. The strong we'll look after the week, 337 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: and when the strong get weaker, we will still have 338 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: the less weak. 339 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 4: We'll look after the very week. 340 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: And so Tom you Wren and his maiden speech said, 341 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: on our side of the river, on our side of 342 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: the creek, it was food was shared equally. The tenths 343 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: we shared equally. Medical care went to those who were 344 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: the most still, not to those who were the most senior. 345 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: We looked at the other side of the creek. Six 346 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: hundred of the marched in. Six weeks later, five hundred 347 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: and fifty of them were dead. There were just fifty left. 348 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: And it was a really sort of inspirational thing. And 349 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: I don't know reading this stuff, the weir he done up. 350 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: I always thought the finest Australian I'd ever written about 351 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: was the late great Sir John Monash, Great Melbourne and Victorian. 352 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: But I must say, Weary Dunlop, when you see that 353 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: kind of stuff and the way he did it, it 354 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: was just fantastic the way he did it. And so 355 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: the great concern that Weary Dunlop had as the conditions 356 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: worsened and the monsoon season arrived. So not only do 357 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: they have this crippling heat or lack of food. I 358 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: mean they were down to two small panicins filled with 359 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: rice the days. 360 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 4: Can you imagine you. 361 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: And I trying to do work, you know, with that, 362 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: and they were doing a cutting. The hell Fire Pass 363 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: was cutting. I went there in February of this year, 364 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: and I'm now sick four years old, but I'm fairly 365 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: fit and I'm fairly strong. 366 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 4: And before I went to hell Fire. 367 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: Pass from the Memorial Center there, I suppose it was 368 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: three or four kilometers the way they said, now make 369 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: sure you take a lot of water and you have 370 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: a good hat, because you know, it's pretty hairy out there. 371 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: And sort of me, yeah, thinks I didn't really take 372 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: their take their warnings seriously. I just about fainted, you know, 373 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: like when I had to stop frequently sit under a 374 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: tree just because it was so hot. The sun didn't shine, 375 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: it beat down and what they did was called hammer 376 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: and tap. The hammer and tap method was you hold 377 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: I've got the sledge hammer. You hold it against the 378 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: side of the mountain. I am going to belt it. 379 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: And every time after I belt it, you turn it 380 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: a little bit to grind it, get the dust out. 381 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: Then we'll pour water down it and get it out. 382 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: I'll belt it again, and you do that, and you 383 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: start at seven o'clock in the morning. And in the 384 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: worst of it, in the worst of it, they put 385 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: lanterns up, they put fires up so that there was 386 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: still you know, they were doing it twenty four to seven. 387 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: You'd go in various shifts. But what Weary was most 388 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: afraid of was cholera. Before I began this book, I 389 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: never quite understood cholera. At the essence of cholera. It 390 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: comes from I'll use the medical term fecal matter bodily 391 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: ablutions in water, getting in a part of the system. 392 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: And if I were to get cholera, and you were 393 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: my doctor, you would say, quickly put a dog tag 394 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: around Fitzimon's's neck. Why because right now I look like me. 395 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: Within four hours of me getting cholera, every aurfice in 396 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: your body expels everything, and in four hours I would 397 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: be a sack of skin, unrecognizable from what I was 398 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: and weary. When cholera hit on the eighth of June 399 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: nineen forty three, he quickly establishes what became known as 400 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: cholera gulch, which was an encampment on the edge on 401 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: the well, away from the rest of the soldiers, so 402 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: that the cholera couldn't spread easily. And it was hell 403 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: on earth. They put up the funeral piers, the cremation 404 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: piers about one hundred yards away. So you've got the 405 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: lanterns in the tent, you've got men expelling everything they 406 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: got in them. And with extraordinary innovation, these doctors. They 407 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: the way they were able to adapt without proper medical facilities. 408 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: One of the things they did in the case of 409 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: cholera was the only way to keep someone alive was 410 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: to get a sealine solution into their body. And so 411 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: the way they did it. They got forty four gallon drums. 412 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: They put huge fires underneath them, They put pressure on 413 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: top so the steam has to come out a tube 414 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: which they got from a band in Japanese lorries. The 415 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: tube filled with steam they put through these bamboo filled 416 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: vats of cold water to condense it, and then to 417 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: get it into your body. They used bamboo sharpened bamboo canulars, 418 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: which you know, very sharpened needles if you like, which 419 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: was very painful, and you'd have the saline solution dripping 420 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: into their body to try to keep them alive. And 421 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: the most moving episode in the book that I just love. 422 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: I love it as an episode. I don't love the 423 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: horror of it. But one of the things they noticed 424 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: as these men are dying is that it was frequently 425 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: men in their forties, mature men with families that were 426 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: better able to cope with the horror of having cholera, 427 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: and it was frequently the younger men that struggled most. 428 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 4: And one of the stories, well two of the stories 429 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 4: I've got. 430 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: In the book, is that there was a fellow. There 431 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: was a young fellow and he'd been he married in 432 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: Melbourne and at four pm on a Thursday afternoon, at 433 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: seven pm that night, but they rounded him up and 434 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: put him on the ship to go to Singapore, which 435 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: fell and he found himself in changing And now he 436 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: found himself in the Thai Burma railway with cholera, and 437 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: he had not even been able to consummate the marriage. 438 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: And he had heard that his bride was seriously ill. 439 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: He'd got a letter in the PW camp to say 440 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: she's seriously ill. He wasn't sure if he was now 441 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: a widower. And he gets cholera, and they do the system. 442 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: They put the canula into his veins, in his arm, 443 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: and he keeps pulling it out, and Weary keeps putting 444 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: it back in, and he pulls it out. 445 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 4: Finally, Weary Dunlop loses it. 446 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 2: And says, men are risking their lives to keep you alive. 447 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 3: We built up this system where they've got. We've gone 448 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: to such effort, we've stolen things to build it. 449 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 4: If you keep pulling. 450 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: That out, you will not only die like a yellow rat, 451 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 3: you will deserve to die like a yellow rat. 452 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: And the guy, by the account that I've used, looks 453 00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: Weary in the eye, deliberately pulls out the canula and 454 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: says to where he I want to be with my 455 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: mother and rolls over and where he done. Lot loses it, 456 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: but you know has lost and says to him, that's 457 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: all right, settle back, You'll be with you in your mother. 458 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 4: In a couple of hours and he dies. Meantime. 459 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: This guy called Scotty, and there's a fellow called Ray Park. 460 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 5: And who yeah, amazing man, amazing man. 461 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: On the Perth when it sank and finished up on 462 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: the Tiburner railway. And I love this like Scotty, and 463 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: I wish I could find out what his last name 464 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: was and know more about him. And I guess it's 465 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: possible somebody will read my book and say, Scotty was 466 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: my grandfather. But this guy, Scotty's forty two years old, 467 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: father of three children, and he's got cholera, and he's 468 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: crook and he's in cholera gulch and men are expelling fluids, 469 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: expelling extreeter everything. 470 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 4: It's madness. And the lanterns and they. 471 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: Have to use a certain tree archs where if there's 472 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: twenty men in the tent and we've only got resources 473 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: for fifteen men to keep them alive. Every now and 474 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: then you have to say, listen, you know this guy, 475 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: we're not going to be able to keep him alive. 476 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: He's going to die anyway. They'd say, where he'd give 477 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: the nod, put him over there on that table. So anyway, Scott, 478 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: he's is so crooked where he gives the nod. Put 479 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: him over there on the table. He'll die very shortly anyway. 480 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: The first time they put Scotty over there, Scotty says, I. 481 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: Know what you're doing, your bastards, You're wasting your time. 482 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 3: I'm going to live. 483 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to get back to Victoria, I'm going to 484 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: see my kids. 485 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 4: I'll live. 486 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: And sure enough, twelve hours later, against the odds, he's 487 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: still alive. So they bring him back into the maintent. 488 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: Twelve hours later. This time he is so crook where 489 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: he gives the nod again. 490 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 4: This time he says, I still. 491 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: Know what you are doing. You. 492 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 3: I told you I'm going. 493 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: To And it happens the third time. By this time 494 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: he can barely speak, but. 495 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: He just get I'm going to live. 496 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: I'm not, And against all odds, he not only survived 497 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: that burst of color, he survived the entire war, got 498 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: back to Melbourne, lived the rest of his life with 499 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: his wife and three children. 500 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 4: I love those kinds. 501 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 5: Of stories, wonderful, yes, where. 502 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: You've got these heroism, and people say why do you 503 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: do so many war stories? 504 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 4: And one of the reasons is one reason. 505 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: I think it makes me feel close to my late 506 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: parents because they served in the war. 507 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 4: But I think when. 508 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: You're dealing with such life and death matters, it is 509 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: so compelling that you just get absorbed in it. And 510 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: again I say, if anybody knows that story from which 511 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: originally came from Ray Parkin's diaries, yes, you know, I'd 512 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: love to know more about Scottie. 513 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, wonderful stuff. The late John Clark introduced me 514 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 5: to the Ray Parkin story. Parkin was still alive back 515 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 5: in twenty five years ago, I think, and in fact, 516 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 5: Clark you would on all his friends and contemporaries and 517 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 5: associates to buy Parkin's a wonderful book. He did, the 518 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 5: great big book about Captain Cook's boat, I think was 519 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 5: the market and this gorgeous piece of draftsmanship, Yes, a big, fat, 520 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 5: heavy book. I paid something like two hundred and fifty 521 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 5: dollars for it at John Cark's urging in order to 522 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 5: support Ray Parkin. And I gave you. I gave it 523 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 5: to a friend who loves boats. 524 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: Yes, he was a brilliant when he was in these 525 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: pow camps. He was a brilliant illustrator, and he loved 526 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: drawing ships and the like of it, and there were two. 527 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: There were others in that. One was a fellow called 528 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: Jack Chalker. And when these men would get these shocking ulcers, 529 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: these tropical ulcers that you'd get a scratch and a 530 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: normal healthy person. I don't understand the medical part of 531 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: the antibodies or whatever, but it would heal in the tropics. 532 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: For seriously malnourished men, it just got bigger and bigger 533 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: and bigger, and half the lead would be eaten away. 534 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: And they got some of these fellows that were brilliant 535 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: painters and artists to draw what these ulcers looked like 536 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: and some of the other medical conditions. And they wanted documentation. 537 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: One of the reasons was this is what the Japanese 538 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: did to us, this is how we were treated, and 539 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: so that they would have a record after the war. 540 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 4: Of what had happened. 541 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: And one of the stories that comes to me, and 542 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: I hope I'm not getting mixed up because I finished 543 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: writing this book eight months ago, but I think it 544 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: was Ray Park And when he finally got back to 545 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: Melbourne in forty five, his wife has had a sort 546 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: of a surprise party for him. He comes through the 547 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: door of his home and there's all the neighbors and 548 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: the people they're welcoming home. But he's sort of so 549 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: shocked to see a birthday cake. He hasn't seen a 550 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: birthday cake. He hasn't had coffee, he hasn't had tea. 551 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: At one point, he's so overwhelmed that he takes a 552 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: seat on the lounge and finds himself next to the 553 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: local baker, and the baker starts to telling him about 554 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: the horrors of what it was like to be in 555 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: Melbourne during the Second World War, and he said, you 556 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: have no idea. We just couldn't get enough butter. We 557 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: could not get enough bread but to go back to 558 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: the Tyburner railway when the part of the book you've read, 559 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: have you come across again, what I think is the 560 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: best story in the whole book of Yee Huckney the Lizard. 561 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 5: I have briefly, and I think what you're going to 562 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 5: tell our listeners, as you will in detail, is that 563 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 5: this man with that odd name was known as a lizard. 564 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 5: He was a Korean, ethnic Korean. He was a very 565 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 5: feared and hated guard. 566 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: To use the technical term, he was an absolute bust 567 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: He was a bustard to the men. 568 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, and cruel. It would beat the mid do. Nothing 569 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 5: was beyond him, that's right. 570 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 4: And so the Japanese used Koreans. 571 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: They had occupied Korea and they I think that was so. 572 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: I think they occupied maybe twenty five years before the 573 00:30:59,280 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: Second World War. 574 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 4: I'd been there a long time. 575 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 1: And the guards we were brutes by nature, but they 576 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: were on the Tyburner railway. And this fellow, ye Huckney 577 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: Weary just hated him because one of the things was 578 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: the Japanese would say, by the time Dunlop force, by 579 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: the time all the soldiers arrived and they're doing the 580 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: Tyburner railway and they've got to get through the cutting. 581 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: By a certain point, they've got to lay down the 582 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: railway track tomorrow. We need seven hundred men to go 583 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: out to work. 584 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 4: Weary would say. 585 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: Well, there's only five hundred fit to work. The rest 586 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: of them are in the hospital. They're too sick, they're 587 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: too malnourished. You've beaten them to a pulp. Some of 588 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: them are dying. Some of them got malarias, some of 589 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: them cholera. The Japanese would say, we need seven hundred men, okay, so, 590 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: and they would force desperately sick men to go out 591 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: to work, and the worst of the guards that were 592 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: doing it was this fellow, the Lizard. They called him 593 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: Lizard ye Huckney, the Korean guard. And at one point 594 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: Weary was who, of course as a doctor, had taken 595 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: the Hypocratic oath. He was so infuriated that he decided, 596 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to kill him. I am going to kill 597 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: this man. This man is responsible for the deaths of 598 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: dozens of my fellow Australians. I don't know who they'll 599 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: replace ye huck Nay with, but there is no way 600 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: known he'll be a bigger bastard than the Lizard. So 601 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: he knows a particular path that ye Huckney is going 602 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: to be walking on just after the sun goes down. 603 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 4: So he goes out. 604 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: With a big hardwood club and waits in the jungle 605 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: for ye huck Nay to walk by. And the Red 606 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: Mist has descended, the Red Mist of absolute fury. And 607 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: at this point, over the distant camp loudspeakers, he hears 608 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: the voice. 609 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 4: Colonel Dunrop, Colonel Dunrop. 610 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: And it's the Japanese calling for him to come, because 611 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: a senior Japanese officer is there is wanting to see him, 612 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: and suddenly Weary Dunlop comes to himself, what am I doing? 613 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: What I'm a doctor? I have taken the hypocratic oath. 614 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: And even in those Tai Burma railway, if there was 615 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: a sick Japanese soldier or officer, and they were more 616 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: sick than the Australian soldiers or officers, he would do 617 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: his best the Hippocratic oath without fear of failure. You 618 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: keep as many people alive as you possibly can. So 619 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: he is haunted by it the rest of his life 620 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: that he nearly killed a man deliberately after the war 621 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: was over. Do these criminal investigations war crimes, Yes, and 622 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: one of the names that comes up is Ye Huckney, 623 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: and Weary, still haunted by what has happened, refuses to cooperate, 624 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: basically lets it go. And he later hears that Ye 625 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: Huckney has been executed, and you know, basically thinks and 626 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: rightly so, for what he did. At least wear he 627 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: had it on his and didn't have it on his 628 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: conscience that he had been responsible for his death. And 629 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: hears that he's executed. Were he comes back and we're 630 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: skipping a long way ahead. But while I'm telling this 631 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: story where he comes back to Australia, becomes a one 632 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: of the most celebrated Australians there ever was, and marries Helen, 633 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: raises two sons, and then becomes an advocate for POW's 634 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: continues his surgic career. It goes back to the Tiburma Railway, 635 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 1: I think for the first time in nineteen eighty seven, 636 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: then again in nineteen ninety one, and about nineteen ninety two, 637 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: and he has not got long to live. He gets 638 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: a invitation, an invitation from two Canberra ANU Australian National 639 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: University academics saying we're putting together a symposium of former 640 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: POWs and their captors in camera. We would like you 641 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: to come. You'll be with some former POWs and we've 642 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: even a Korean guard that used to be on the 643 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: Thai Burma railway with you. Ye Huckney and Weary cannot 644 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: believe it. Here he is Dot three Carry one Subtract 645 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: two about fifty five fifty seven. Eight years later, the 646 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: guy that he thought was dead there's I was alive. 647 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: And so he goes up to Canberra and there is 648 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: there is the one that he recognizes he's a very 649 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: old man now, but it's the lizard. 650 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 4: And ye Huckney. 651 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: Goes up to Weary, and Weary is sitting down at 652 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: the time he enters the room. Weary himself is too 653 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: weak to stand up quickly, and ye Huckney offers him 654 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: his hand, pulls him up, and then they go outside 655 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: and they sit outside. Tommy, Youuren's there, and Yee Huckney says, 656 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: I have come to Australia to apologize to you. I 657 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: want you to understand that the man I was at 658 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: the age of eighteen, and I was only eighteen, and 659 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: I'd been brought up in a land that was occupied 660 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: by the Japanese. 661 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 4: There's a translator doing this for them. Occupied. 662 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: We had been brutalized, we had been told that the 663 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: Japanese Empire was everything, that you white men were less 664 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: than scum. 665 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 4: Were lower than low. 666 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: I had been after the war was over, and so 667 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: whatever I did there, I'm sorry for what I did, 668 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: but I didn't know better. I was condemned to death 669 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: if I did. Twenty years I went back to Japan. 670 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: I've read, I've talked, I've understand what I did back 671 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: then was wrong, and I've come to Australia to apologize, 672 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: and he offered his hand. Weary Dunlop shakes his hand 673 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: and says, I understand, and I dealt with one of 674 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: the professors that had organized that, and Weary thereafter would 675 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: refer to ye Huckney the lizard, as he asked the professor, 676 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: how is my friend? And he was referring to yee 677 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: Huckney the lizard, the man he had nearly killed. 678 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 4: Murder. 679 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 5: Peterfit Simons. I think that ends this section of our talk. 680 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 5: But the next bit is going to be about a crime, 681 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 5: because you know we are a crime podcast, and I 682 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 5: know that you know about a crime that indirectly involves 683 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,959 Speaker 5: where he done Lop or in fact he's best man 684 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 5: and very good friend a surgeon called Jim Yates, and 685 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 5: I would suggest that to our listeners that next week, 686 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 5: peterfit Simons will give us his take on what is 687 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 5: known as the Needle in the Heart murder. Thanks for 688 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,240 Speaker 5: talking to us today, Peter. Tell us about your book. 689 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: The book is The Courageous Life of Where He Dunelp. 690 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: It's just out in late October twenty twenty five. I've 691 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: been working on it for Yonks and I think of 692 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: the recent books that I've done, this is the one 693 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: of which I am most about. The great Australian War 694 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: hero and doctor and surgeon on the Tai Burma Railway. 695 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 5: And lover certain Dunlap. And next week our listeners will 696 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 5: hear you talk about Jim Yates and Weary Dunlop and 697 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 5: one of the best technically unsolved murders I've ever heard 698 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 5: of in Australian history. 699 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, Andrew for having me at your place. It's 700 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: been an absolute pleasure. You've barely let me get a 701 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: word in edgeways, but I enjoyed it. 702 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald 703 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 5: Sun production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. 704 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 5: For my columns, features and more, go to Heroldsun dot 705 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 5: com dot au, forward slash Andrew rule one word. For 706 00:38:54,640 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 5: advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news dot 707 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 5: com dot au. That is all one word news podcast's sold. 708 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 5: And if you want further information about this episode, links 709 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 5: are in the description.