1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Suan Alma. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: You can tell a lot about Australia by looking at demographics, 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: at the trends affecting different social groups. It becomes particularly 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: relevant to a business podcast when those changes and trends 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: feed into the labor market, the workplace and the broader economy. 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: And right now there's a fascinating story unfolding with young 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: men in Australia that's being reflected in unemployment numbers and 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: a steady closing of the gender pay gap. Demographer Simon 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: Kristin Maha is the co founder of the Demographics Group. Simon, 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: you're a most a regular on Fear and Greed. Welcome 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: back this morning. 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: That's great to be back on. 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: Let's go through this. What's the big challenge facing young 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: men in Australia? And I suppose who are young? When 15 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: we're talking about young. 16 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: Men exactly, So the young mencor tends to be defined 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: as kids being of young people being fifteen to twenty four, 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: So fifteen to twenty four roughly the education stage of 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: the life cycle still and with those young men, we 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: try to measure what they're doing and so you can 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: just measure how many of those young men are in employment, 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: have a job, how many of those young men are 23 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 2: in education. But the real interesting numbers are hiding in 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 2: the white space in between. Who is not in education 25 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: and also at the same time not working. So who 26 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 2: is just disengaged? And what's this story? There are these 27 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: just because there's plenty of reasons why you would not 28 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: be engaged in neither education nor work. You could be 29 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 2: caring for your kids, for example, or for elderly people, 30 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 2: or you might have a health condition, or you might 31 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: be in prison, whatever ie is. There are plenty of reasons, 32 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: but increasingly it's neither of those issues. There is a 33 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: quickly growing code of people that are just disengaged, who 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: are not doing much at all, who are just living 35 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: into the day, and they get by on very little 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: money and it's easy to get lost, you know, in 37 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: a digital world, so to speak. And that has severe 38 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 2: implications for men and women alike, and it has particularly 39 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: implications for the richest and most educated women in Australia. 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: In a bizarre twist. 41 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so before we get to the implications, why is 42 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: it happening. It's happening more now than it did previously 43 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: oppresume or saying why do you think that? Is that 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: an education thing? What's the background to it? 45 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: I think there is a story of lost hope. It's 46 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: the idea that why would you leave the education system 47 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: and not join the workforce. We have low unemployment, jobs 48 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: are available. All the other economic indicators would suggest that 49 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: we see fewer people, a fewer men in particular, in 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: we call them needs neither education, employment or training. So 51 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: why is this calld growing rather than shrinking under this scenario? 52 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: And it's a mystery, so to speak. And I think 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: we then need to open up all those bigger discussions 54 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: about the meaning of life, about the broad up purpose 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: that you have, what gets you out of bed in 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: the morning, what drives you, what is the meaning in 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: your life? And for example this there's quite a bit 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: of religious narratives if you just think about, you know, 59 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: the Protestant work ethic that really pushed you to work. 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: There is the idea that education is absolutely crucial, and 61 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: lots and lots of people proactively push their kids into education, 62 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: but some don't, and some people get left behind. And 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: it's very hard once you're in a bit of a 64 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: rut to get the motivation to get out of this, 65 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: because it's so easy to be sucked into alternative you know, 66 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: waves of procrastination. We all experience this on a daily 67 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: basis when we now we have certain kind of work 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: tasks to do, and then we just check yourself, I'm 69 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: quite a second. Did I just waste half an hour 70 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: on stupid YouTube shorts or LinkedIn stuff that is not 71 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: relevant at all at the moment, And you just blow 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: this up a bit more. And then you have people, 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: and it's particularly men because what happened over the last 74 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: four decades is that we saw ever more young men 75 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: who are neither in education, employment or training, and we 76 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: saw fewer and fewer women have been now at this 77 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 2: point in time for the first time where we have 78 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 2: more young men who are disengaged than young women and 79 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: young women. Traditionally, of course, fifteen to twenty four, you 80 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: were a mom, you looked after your kids, You were 81 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: certainly busy. You were not disengaged, you were just disengaged 82 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: from those sectors you are most certainly busy. But now 83 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: lots and lots of advances in gender equality and access 84 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 2: to employment and work opportunities for women, so it makes 85 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: it easy storytelling why the cohort, and we push for 86 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: childbirth out into the late twenties really mid thirties these days, 87 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: so it makes sense that women are not disengaged. 88 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: Sorry with me, Simon, We'll be back in a minute. 89 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: My guest this morning is demographer Simon Kristen Maha, co 90 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: founder of the Demographics Group. So we have this cohort 91 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: of needs young men. What does it so for whatever reason? 92 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: What's it mean then going forward? Mean? What are the 93 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: ramifications of the growth in this group? 94 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, for them, it is very difficult because their 95 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: future prosperity is absolutely hampered. You're missing out on knowledge 96 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: and earning capacity in your early years and they then 97 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: trickle down throughout your whole life cycle. That has severe 98 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,119 Speaker 2: implications for your partnering prospects. Because one of the big 99 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: social trends that has not changed over the last decades, 100 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: and this was sociologists call upwards social mobility of women. 101 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: This is a reference back to times when women were 102 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: completely locked out of the workforce and the only way 103 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: to improve your social standing was to marry upwards, to 104 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: marry someone who is richer and more educated than your 105 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 2: family was, and that desire of women to partner with 106 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: men who are at the very least as educated and 107 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: have earned that much money as they do. That hasn't 108 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: gone away. We know this from online dating profiles. There's 109 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: plenty of data that says that overwhelmingly women one partners 110 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: that are on their level or higher. And now that 111 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: women are outperforming men on every level of education, we're 112 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 2: seeing this is becoming a problem because in a sense, 113 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: there are men uneducated, disengage men at the bottom and 114 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: highly educated, super successful women at the top who are 115 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 2: the both the two groups who find it particularly hard 116 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: to find partners because their potential pull of partners keeps shrinking. 117 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: So if a successful career woman in her forties says 118 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: there are no good men around, she's technically speaking right. 119 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: Imagine the kind of partner that she would need. There 120 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: are not that many men like this around, and so 121 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: I'm not to be honest, not too concerned about those 122 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: highly educated successful women. They then just focus more on 123 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: their careers, produce more GDP, spend more money. That's fine 124 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: on a societal level, that is not a major structural issue. 125 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: But young, disengaged, disappointed men that has always been the 126 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: recipe for lots and lots of social disruptions. These are 127 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: people men that vote for parties on the political extreme. 128 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: That's not helpful for social cohesion. They're angry, they're disengaged, 129 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: and now they're also not able to partner up. That 130 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 2: is not good. And so we see at the worst 131 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: of the spectrum. Then you have the Androtts of the 132 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: world really wheeling in with misogynist anti women narratives, the 133 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: in cell movement. There's lots and lots of negative stuff 134 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: that comes out of this. 135 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: So now I was going to say it's very negative. 136 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: I mean, there are some I mean, you've talked about 137 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: the gender pay gap lesting and partly a result of this. 138 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: We want the gender pay gap to close, though whether 139 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: this is a way we want it to close, I'm 140 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: not sure that's quite the answer. What can we do 141 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: about it? So it's really interesting what you said. I've 142 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: never ever thought of this. I personally, JACKI and I 143 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: have six boys between the ages of twenty six and eighteen. 144 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm now going to rethink what they're doing with their 145 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: lives right because it is really scary for parents and 146 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: for the individuals. What can we do about it? 147 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: Well, we always want to think about the preventative things first. 148 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: So what can we do in the education system. There 149 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: is plenty of research suggesting that the education system as 150 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: a whole as a system works better for girls than 151 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: it does for boys. We are rewarding behavior that requires 152 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: a certain kind of social intelligence, which women establish much 153 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: sooner in life. Men establish this later in life, a 154 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: different kind of intelligence. But so it's the idea of 155 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: sitting still, of listening, of adhering to rules, particularly in 156 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: young kids. Girls are much better at it, and so 157 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: the school system as it is now is favoring the 158 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: skills that these young girls are better in and boys 159 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: leg behind. So what you can do as the parent 160 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: of a young boy in particular, is to hold him 161 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: back from education for as long as you can, meaning 162 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: keep them in kindergarten for an additional year. And depending 163 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: on when your kid is born, that is actually not 164 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: an option. But if your kid is born just you know, 165 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: the right corner of the year, you can just hold 166 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: it back a bit, and then your boy is one 167 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: of the older kids in school rather than one of 168 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: the younger. So in your class, aim for your boys 169 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: to be rather older than younger. That would be a 170 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: quick fixed that you can do as a parent. What 171 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: we're then also seeing is, of course they need on 172 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: a society level to create charter schools that are particularly 173 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: focusing on these disengaged young people. And again, so they 174 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 2: are also disengaged young women. It's just that it's much 175 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: more likely for men to be disengaged this way, so 176 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: this wouldn't be just a male thing. And I also 177 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: really don't want this discussion to be viewed as a 178 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 2: zero sum game. The goal of education, at the goal 179 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: of society must always be to allow everyone to operate 180 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: at their highest potential and to give them as much 181 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: freedom and choice in their career and education as possible. 182 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: And so when we say we want to fix the 183 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: education system for boys, we want to lift those boys 184 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: up rather than push the girls down. If that makes sense, 185 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: that's the big risk in this discussion. Let's avoid that. 186 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: Fascinating Simon, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed 187 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure. That was Simon kusten Maha, co founder of 188 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: the demogra Graphics Group. This is the Fear and Greed 189 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: Daily Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 190 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: of Fear and Greed, that daily business news for people 191 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: who make their own decisions. I'm chanelma enjoy your day.