WEBVTT - Raf Epstein on a week that’s left him ‘punch drunk’

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>a week of shock and grief. The attack on Helen

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<v Speaker 1>Haynes has left her family and the community she represents

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<v Speaker 1>confronting a trauma that has reverberated across the country, and

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<v Speaker 1>whose consequences will endure long after the headlines have moved on.

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<v Speaker 1>In Canberra, there have been calls for restraint, for care

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<v Speaker 1>with words, and for an end to the cruelty that

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<v Speaker 1>has become so familiar in our public life. Those calls

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<v Speaker 1>ask politicians and the media to recognise the weight of

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<v Speaker 1>our words and our collective responsibility for the tone we

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<v Speaker 1>accept in public debate. Today, ABC Melbourne's Raf Epstein, on

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<v Speaker 1>a devastating week, the habits we've come to accept and

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<v Speaker 1>whether this moment will change anything once the political contest resumes.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Saturday, October 24th. Raph, it's been a brutal week

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<v Speaker 1>for Helen Haynes and her family, first and foremost, but

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<v Speaker 1>also for the country as we come to grips with

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<v Speaker 1>this tragedy. This happened in your home state. You're talking

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<v Speaker 1>to people every day on the radio. How are you

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<v Speaker 1>and how are they reflecting on this?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to use a phrase that probably I shouldn't use,

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<v Speaker 2>but I feel punch drunk after this week.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't have a better way to describe it.

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<v Speaker 2>There's something about when violence lands in our political system,

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<v Speaker 2>no matter what the motive.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we all feel it.

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<v Speaker 2>I especially felt it on the Tuesday after being on

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<v Speaker 2>the radio and hearing from people. I felt it especially

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<v Speaker 2>with a few of the politicians who came to the

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<v Speaker 2>studio yesterday.

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<v Speaker 3>They looked white as sheets.

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<v Speaker 2>They looked devastated by something they all felt viscerally and personally.

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<v Speaker 3>And then when people rang in, the shock feels real

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<v Speaker 3>and personal.

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<v Speaker 2>My own personal opinion is that any violence that happens

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<v Speaker 2>within our political system is scary. Because the motives, as

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<v Speaker 2>important as they are, and this is violence against a woman,

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<v Speaker 2>this is violence in the workplace, those things are drastically underreported.

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<v Speaker 2>But violence in our politics is a little bit terrifying

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<v Speaker 2>because it makes everything in our politics worse. Everything that

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<v Speaker 2>gets weaponised, everything we disagree about, just gets worse. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's how a tonne of people felt this week.

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<v Speaker 1>There's still so much we don't know about what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>It looks like there might be a mental health aspect

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<v Speaker 1>to this. There might be some political motivation around it.

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<v Speaker 1>But regardless of the motivation and how this played out,

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<v Speaker 1>it did get us talking about political threats and violence

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<v Speaker 1>and about some of the toxic rhetoric on social media

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<v Speaker 1>and in Canberra. Is that perhaps a silver lining to this,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that we're having that conversation as a country?

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<v Speaker 3>I hope so. I hope so.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a lovely way to frame it. I mean, there's

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<v Speaker 2>two things to say about whether or not it's a

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<v Speaker 2>silver lining. Firstly, one of the reasons I think journos

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<v Speaker 2>and politicians have reacted so strongly is we're all waiting

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<v Speaker 2>for this. Not that motives aren't important. Not that many

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<v Speaker 2>people were surprised. Like I'm sitting in a studio where

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<v Speaker 2>I have a, you know, raw access to the text

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<v Speaker 2>message feed when I'm on air and People who broadcast

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<v Speaker 2>from the studio, Patricia Carvellis, Virginia Trioli, they get much

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<v Speaker 2>worse than I get.

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<v Speaker 3>Much worse.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not saying I don't get nasty stuff, but Jesus,

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<v Speaker 2>it's terrible for women in public life. It's just horrific.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there a silver lining in the fact that we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about it? There's only one answer to that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Because if the answer is no, then we're in so

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<v Speaker 2>much trouble. What I've really struggled with this week is,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think there is a silver lining. It only

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<v Speaker 2>feels like it's getting worse. But you can't leave it there.

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<v Speaker 2>Like you can't, even if you're in your heart and

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<v Speaker 2>your guts, you feel, oh, geez, it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Just getting worse. Like democracy is a participation sport, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, hope's a verb.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever cliche I can come up with, like we've got

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<v Speaker 2>to try. We've got to make it better. So is

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<v Speaker 2>there a silver lining? Sure, yeah, there is because hopefully.

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<v Speaker 3>Our politics.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe we'll all think a bit harder about how we participate.

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<v Speaker 1>You've spoken to a number of politicians this week and

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<v Speaker 1>you've mentioned how viscerally they're feeling this moment. But do

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<v Speaker 1>you think anything will change in Parliament, though? Because just

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<v Speaker 1>last week we saw the most horrendous One Nation video

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<v Speaker 1>making fun of Jackie Lambie's deep personal health condition.

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<v Speaker 4>The cartoon, which has now been taken down, mocked the senator...

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<v Speaker 4>who recently revealed she'd had a vaginal and bladder prolapse.

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<v Speaker 2>And I do apologise for that, and I've already spoken

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<v Speaker 2>to them about it.

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<v Speaker 3>It does bear my name.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've got to take responsibility for that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>accept that.

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<v Speaker 1>A couple of weeks ago, we had a Liberal MP

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<v Speaker 1>saying that the PM and a small business minister, Anne Arleigh,

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<v Speaker 1>should be shamed and stoned.

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<v Speaker 4>This Prime Minister should be absolutely shamed and stoned in

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<v Speaker 4>the square.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this a turning point? at least for that type

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<v Speaker 1>of rhetoric, or is it just a temporary truce?

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<v Speaker 3>It's such a hard question to answer, Daniel.

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<v Speaker 2>So firstly, your examples there, the One Nation video and

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<v Speaker 2>the Liberal MP saying people in Labor should be publicly stoned,

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<v Speaker 2>the people in those parties, in One Nation and the

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<v Speaker 2>Liberal Party, they've got their own examples.

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<v Speaker 3>Anthony Albanese's dirt file.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone's got an example of how the other side are worse.

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<v Speaker 2>Every media organisation says the other media organisation's worse. That's

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<v Speaker 2>why this is so scary. Everyone knows it's like pouring

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<v Speaker 2>petrol on the divisions we've got and everyone says, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I could have done better.

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<v Speaker 3>And I should do better.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, one of the things I asked the PM this

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<v Speaker 2>week was, I said something along the lines of, you

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<v Speaker 2>think in your heart of hearts you're not the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>part of the problem.

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<v Speaker 3>The other guys are the biggest part of the problem.

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<v Speaker 5>Countless occasions.

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<v Speaker 3>But you don't think your side's the real problem, do you?

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<v Speaker 5>I don't think anyone is immune from that message. My side,

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<v Speaker 5>every side included. We all have to recognise that politics

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<v Speaker 5>has got more aggressive.

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<v Speaker 2>The Prime Minister did a decent job of saying, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it's up to me and But I, you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>he appears in public is the same in private. He

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<v Speaker 2>hates some of the media. I hate some of the media.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone hates some of the media. Everyone thinks, actually, the

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<v Speaker 2>real problem is over there. That's why this is just difficult.

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<v Speaker 2>And we've all got examples. You saw as soon as

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<v Speaker 2>Helen Haynes got attacked, everyone's out of the gate. Out

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<v Speaker 2>of the gate straight away. I had the Premier Ben

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<v Speaker 2>Carroll on, the Victorian Premier, and he was saying, one

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<v Speaker 2>nation's rhetoric around all politicians are corrupt.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the problem. That's what we've got to stop.

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<v Speaker 4>We do need to be mindful of any rhetoric that

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<v Speaker 4>is broadcasting that governments are failure, the system's rigged against you.

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<v Speaker 4>You're never going to get ahead. Any rhetoric that is

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<v Speaker 4>all about despair and nothing about positivity, we need to

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<v Speaker 4>call out.

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<v Speaker 2>We can't even have a conversation about what are the causes,

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<v Speaker 2>who's at fault. As soon as Ben Carroll says all

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<v Speaker 2>politicians are corrupt or the whole uniparty, that jargon, that's wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>that's bad. You can't say Labor and Liberal are the same.

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<v Speaker 2>But then all the One Nation and the Green supporters go, no,

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<v Speaker 2>that's exactly the problem. You guys are the same. So

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<v Speaker 2>everyone goes, let's lower the temperature.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure. Everyone says, yep, it's my fault too.

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<v Speaker 2>And the very next conversation is, no, no, the very

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<v Speaker 2>thing you think is the problem is the thing I

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<v Speaker 2>see as the truth.

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<v Speaker 3>And you add violence to.

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<v Speaker 2>That, that's why it's destabilising and feels quite, it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of hits you in your guts and in your heart

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<v Speaker 2>in a way a lot of other political events don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, the shifting sands of division. And Raf, you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned the media's role in all of this. The Prime

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<v Speaker 1>Minister has been everywhere saying that we need to turn

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<v Speaker 1>the temperature down.

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<v Speaker 5>It is the case, I think, across the board that

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<v Speaker 5>we all have a responsibility to turn the temperature down.

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<v Speaker 3>It is something that.

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<v Speaker 1>But we've seen some really divisive reactions from some corners

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<v Speaker 1>of the media. Perhaps the most jarring was a headline

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<v Speaker 1>in The Australian, plant person and pro-Gaza radical Brendan Nugent

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<v Speaker 1>arrested over Helen Haynes. What have you made of the

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<v Speaker 1>coverage from some aspects of the media? I could fill books, Daniel,

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<v Speaker 1>with the media, I think, that get it wrong. But

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<v Speaker 1>in the interest of trying to bring the temperature down...

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<v Speaker 1>Clearly that headline, I'm not sure it helps us. The

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<v Speaker 1>day after it happened, I mentioned that interview with Ben Carroll.

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<v Speaker 2>I was accused and I got mentioned by a columnist

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<v Speaker 2>in the Herald Sun who's well known around the country.

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<v Speaker 2>I was part of the problem because I was introducing

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that some of our nation's rhetoric is part

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<v Speaker 2>of the problem.

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<v Speaker 3>We're so at odds.

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<v Speaker 2>You see that headline and you think, oh, hang on,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the very thing that's part of the problem, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>And then people listening to my show are like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>Raf's talking about One Nation's rhetoric. I ask politicians from

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<v Speaker 2>time to time, hold on, when Pauline Hanson says the

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<v Speaker 2>things she says about Muslims, is that racist? I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's a reasonable question. Not everyone does. A ton of

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<v Speaker 2>people think, no, no, RAF's the problem. You can't say

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<v Speaker 2>these people are racist. Now, there's a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 2>rights and wrongs in that debate, but we don't agree

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<v Speaker 2>on that stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>That's what's changed.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the phrases Ben Carroll used this week is

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<v Speaker 2>we're in a post-fact information age. I'm not sure that's

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<v Speaker 2>going to get much of a run on the hustings

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<v Speaker 2>in the election, but we are post-fact and post-truth in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways. I don't believe the world is without facts

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<v Speaker 2>and truth, but we all know we're all in our

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<v Speaker 2>own little echo chambers. We struggle to talk to people

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<v Speaker 2>in their echo chambers.

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<v Speaker 3>That's why this is so scary.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been a lot of finger pointing at social media,

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<v Speaker 1>pointing at parliament, pointing at the left and the right

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<v Speaker 1>and pointing at each other. But what about the news media?

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<v Speaker 1>Have they slash we turned a magnifying glass on ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>and acknowledged the role that we have in the tone

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<v Speaker 1>of this national discussion?

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<v Speaker 2>We are unlicensed, unregulated. You don't need permission. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>need any training before you are unleashed. on the public

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<v Speaker 2>and that's just the mainstream media, let alone social media.

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<v Speaker 2>Have we turned a good lens on ourselves?

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<v Speaker 3>Nah, not really. Well, we all.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell ourselves every day that's what we're doing. That's what

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<v Speaker 2>we do every day. We fact check and we bring

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<v Speaker 2>context and we weigh up our values and our editorial

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<v Speaker 2>mission and we seek to illuminate public affairs and we

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<v Speaker 2>do that and we're just as good at turning that

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<v Speaker 2>scrutiny on ourselves. But everyone who hates what we do

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't think we're doing anything differently. That's the world we're in.

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<v Speaker 2>Violence in politics terrifies me. I mean that genuinely. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to shut down anybody. But it just,

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<v Speaker 2>the experience overseas is that violence leads to more polarisation

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<v Speaker 2>because that is what violence does. Politics is all we've got, right?

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<v Speaker 2>Politics is all we've got to grapple with the irrational.

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<v Speaker 2>We kid ourselves, I think, that politics is about the rational.

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<v Speaker 2>Politics actually isn't about that. Human beings have irrational disagreements

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<v Speaker 2>and we need a system to resolve that That's what

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<v Speaker 2>politics tries to do. But once you have violence within that,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all emotion and no rationality. And that's why this

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<v Speaker 2>is difficult. And that's why I'm finding it, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know how familiar people are with me, I'm quite good

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<v Speaker 2>at coming up with answers. You know, I can come

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<v Speaker 2>up with quite a few plausible things. I'm finding your

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<v Speaker 2>questions really difficult to answer because when there's no common

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<v Speaker 2>ground and there isn't common ground and there's such a

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<v Speaker 2>volume of information within which there is no common ground,

0:12:58.660 --> 0:13:01.920
<v Speaker 2>where do you stand? What's your opinion? Like what do

0:13:01.940 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>you think of the media and the media's performance?

0:13:04.450 --> 0:13:06.370
<v Speaker 1>I think we live in an age where the media's

0:13:06.429 --> 0:13:10.490
<v Speaker 1>performance feeds directly into people's algorithms and those algorithms become

0:13:10.690 --> 0:13:13.030
<v Speaker 1>echo chambers and that's what leads to a lot of

0:13:13.070 --> 0:13:15.929
<v Speaker 1>the division that we're suffering at the moment. I think

0:13:16.030 --> 0:13:20.089
<v Speaker 1>that mainstream media has geared itself around the algorithms of

0:13:20.130 --> 0:13:24.189
<v Speaker 1>social media to amplify their message but also their revenue

0:13:24.290 --> 0:13:25.570
<v Speaker 1>and that's part of the problem as well.

0:13:26.630 --> 0:13:28.490
<v Speaker 3>They're all good points. They're better answers than mine.

0:13:29.250 --> 0:13:32.670
<v Speaker 1>Finally, Raf, as you've been describing, we live in extremely

0:13:32.990 --> 0:13:36.340
<v Speaker 1>tumultuous times. I will venture to say that you are

0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.600
<v Speaker 1>a veteran journalist. You've been around a lot of big stories,

0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 1>but can you think of another domestic story that has

0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:47.370
<v Speaker 1>raised so many questions for us as a society, a polity,

0:13:47.530 --> 0:13:49.750
<v Speaker 1>and for us as individuals?

0:13:50.490 --> 0:13:51.570
<v Speaker 3>That's a big question.

0:13:51.590 --> 0:13:54.210
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I have been doing this for more than

0:13:54.210 --> 0:13:57.510
<v Speaker 2>30 years, so you never want to say one story

0:13:57.580 --> 0:14:03.590
<v Speaker 2>is bigger than another. You know, like Port Arthur, 9-11 incident, COVID,

0:14:04.429 --> 0:14:08.410
<v Speaker 2>the revolving prime ministers. I mean, when you look back

0:14:08.510 --> 0:14:12.390
<v Speaker 2>on the 31 years, you can see some commonalities.

0:14:12.460 --> 0:14:13.340
<v Speaker 3>War on terror.

0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.840
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of markers on the road to where

0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:18.700
<v Speaker 2>we are now.

0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:21.340
<v Speaker 3>Have there been other stories that are bigger?

0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:21.980
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure.

0:14:22.420 --> 0:14:26.420
<v Speaker 3>There's always bigger stories. But I think the reason this story.

0:14:26.180 --> 0:14:29.010
<v Speaker 2>Is a little bit different is A, it's violence and

0:14:29.030 --> 0:14:32.090
<v Speaker 2>we don't normally have violence in our politics, on our streets,

0:14:32.750 --> 0:14:35.610
<v Speaker 2>aimed at our politicians for whatever reasons and we let

0:14:35.670 --> 0:14:38.970
<v Speaker 2>the courts decide what those reasons are. But there's something

0:14:39.010 --> 0:14:40.890
<v Speaker 2>else that I guess we haven't spoken about and maybe

0:14:41.370 --> 0:14:44.250
<v Speaker 2>this again is the problem with the media, that it

0:14:44.350 --> 0:14:49.270
<v Speaker 2>happened to Helen Haynes. Two things about Helen Haynes. Number one,

0:14:49.290 --> 0:14:53.630
<v Speaker 2>I've interviewed her, I haven't met her. Everyone says she's

0:14:53.670 --> 0:14:59.150
<v Speaker 2>just a thoroughly nice, decent, in the connection she has

0:14:59.170 --> 0:15:02.890
<v Speaker 2>with her community. Like she is the epitome of what

0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.680
<v Speaker 2>we want our politics to be. She is deeply committed

0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:10.220
<v Speaker 2>and connected to the people who voted for her and

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.020
<v Speaker 2>to the people who did not vote for her in

0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:13.710
<v Speaker 2>her community.

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 3>Which is a pretty amazing thing in the age that

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 3>we live in.

0:15:17.380 --> 0:15:21.330
<v Speaker 2>Secondly, she's voted in on a ticket and she is

0:15:21.370 --> 0:15:24.810
<v Speaker 2>the first independent to take over from another independent in

0:15:24.870 --> 0:15:28.350
<v Speaker 2>our parliament. The whole point of Helen Haynes' political project

0:15:28.830 --> 0:15:33.530
<v Speaker 2>is integrity in politics, the opposite of all of the difficult,

0:15:34.270 --> 0:15:37.540
<v Speaker 2>painful things I've been raising with you. She's the epitome

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:44.110
<v Speaker 2>of trying to fight against that. all say that she

0:15:44.170 --> 0:15:47.380
<v Speaker 2>is that. So that's why this, I won't say it's bigger,

0:15:47.420 --> 0:15:50.680
<v Speaker 2>but that's why it feels so unique. I think that

0:15:50.740 --> 0:15:54.940
<v Speaker 2>they're really important parts of this because she's supposed to

0:15:54.980 --> 0:15:59.630
<v Speaker 2>be the antidote. She's supposed to be the tonic, the medicine,

0:16:00.330 --> 0:16:02.770
<v Speaker 2>and yet the violence happened to her. And I'm sure

0:16:02.790 --> 0:16:04.910
<v Speaker 2>there are people listening to this going, but it wasn't political.

0:16:04.930 --> 0:16:08.610
<v Speaker 2>We don't know. I want to return to a point

0:16:08.630 --> 0:16:12.440
<v Speaker 2>I made before. Politics, it's all about us. They are

0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.320
<v Speaker 2>our representatives. It's how we sort. It's how we say

0:16:16.380 --> 0:16:19.940
<v Speaker 2>what we value. It's how we make decisions collectively. So

0:16:19.980 --> 0:16:25.100
<v Speaker 2>when the violence drops in that pond, the motive doesn't matter.

0:16:25.820 --> 0:16:29.500
<v Speaker 3>So I think that's why it resonates. That's why it

0:16:29.570 --> 0:16:31.730
<v Speaker 3>feels so disturbing for so many of us.

0:16:35.010 --> 0:16:37.390
<v Speaker 1>Well, Raph, it's always a pleasure having you on the show.

0:16:37.410 --> 0:16:39.090
<v Speaker 1>Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

0:16:39.750 --> 0:16:43.640
<v Speaker 3>Have a great weekend, everybody. Onwards and upwards to all

0:16:43.670 --> 0:16:43.860
<v Speaker 3>of us.

0:17:00.450 --> 0:17:03.200
<v Speaker 1>7am is a daily show from Solstice Media. It's made

0:17:03.220 --> 0:17:08.520
<v Speaker 1>by Atticus Bastow, Chris Dengate, Crystal Keller, Renee Auckland, Ruby Jones,

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<v Speaker 1>Travis Evans, Yo Chung, Zoltan Fecho Jr. and me, Daniel James.

0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.690
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0:17:37.420 --> 0:17:38.020
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