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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment of that

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Speaker 1: you project Professor Nick Haslam is here. We just met

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Speaker 1: thirteen seconds ago, so we're going to get to know

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Speaker 1: each other over the next forty five fifty sixty minutes.

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Speaker 1: Who knows, could be three hours. I mean we could connect,

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Speaker 1: we could start something that goes on forever. But before

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Speaker 1: I predict that, I'll say hi to Nick. Hi, Nick,

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Speaker 1: How are you very well?

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Speaker 2: Craigan?

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks very much for doing this? How often do

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Speaker 1: you you were just marveling at the amount of podcast

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Speaker 1: or the lack of life that I have and the

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Speaker 1: amount of podcasts that I do seven a week. How

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Speaker 1: often do you do something like this?

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Speaker 2: Very rarely? You know, I do the occasional podcast, but

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Speaker 2: I don't have my own gig. I mean, we run

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Speaker 2: a podcast in my department, and I think we do

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Speaker 2: something like seven episodes a year, So I think we

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Speaker 2: must be just very lazy compared to you. So I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure how you manage it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's a much better product than what I

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Speaker 1: churn out here at typ Central on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: But fortunately for me, I do have a good team

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Speaker 1: around me who know how to make me look and

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Speaker 1: sound smarter than I actually am. So I think that's

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Speaker 1: always good to have good people in the background. Tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about you. If you could tell

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Speaker 1: my audience who you are and what rather than me

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Speaker 1: read some potentially stale bio that could be outdated, which

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Speaker 1: I've done in the past, could you just give my

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Speaker 1: audience a snapshot of who you are, what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: what lights you up?

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Speaker 2: Maybe sure. I'm a psychology academic at the University of Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: I've been here about twenty four years. Before that, I

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Speaker 2: taught at a university in New York City, and I

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Speaker 2: did my PhD before that at the University of Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: with people you and your listeners may know, people like

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Speaker 2: Marty Seligman, my team, Aaron Beck, the founder of Cognitive Therapy.

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Speaker 2: I worked in his unit for a while. So I

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Speaker 2: trained as a clinical psychologist, but then sort of moved

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Speaker 2: away from actually helping people to doing social psychology, and

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Speaker 2: so I do a lot of research on things like

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Speaker 2: stigma and prejudice and how concepts have harm have changed

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Speaker 2: through time and metric classification and all sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: So I'm basically a university egghead, but also do quite

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Speaker 2: a lot of science communication, so I write widely for

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Speaker 2: The Conversation, Australian Book Review, Inside Story. I try to

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Speaker 2: get the word of psychology out there to the intelligent

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Speaker 2: lay public.

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Speaker 1: A self aware egghead, though, I'm going to say that,

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Speaker 1: you know that's good.

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Speaker 2: We aspire to him. If you're not self aware as

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Speaker 2: a psychology person, I think you're probably in the wrong business.

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Speaker 1: I tell you what, there's a few. There's a few,

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Speaker 1: and you know a few, and I know a few.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, let's hope that we're not in that group.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I love the fact that you

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Speaker 1: said a science communicator. One of the challenges for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really I'm a pseudo academic. I'm more a

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Speaker 1: pro academic. You're an actual academic. But for me, trying

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Speaker 1: to share thoughts and ideas and concepts and science in

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Speaker 1: a way which makes sense the public. So it's not

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Speaker 1: only you know they can understand, but also they can

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Speaker 1: potentially operationalize it, they can do something with it. It's like, well, cool, Craig,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about all this stuff with a really smart dude. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not understanding half of it. And if I can't

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Speaker 1: understand it, I can't do something with it. So every

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Speaker 1: time I talk, I'm trying to have at least a

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Speaker 1: vague awareness of what is the listener experience or the

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Speaker 1: observer or the viewer experience, so that this might be Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a good conversation, but more importantly, it's a good

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Speaker 1: conversation for them, not us. Hopefully it's good for us,

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Speaker 1: but more importantly it's good for them, so that there

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Speaker 1: might be a light bulb moment, or there might be

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Speaker 1: some door that opens on awareness or understanding or insight

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Speaker 1: that actually is a value to people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so important to communicate. And again I mean

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Speaker 2: I think you're doing a fine job of that and

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Speaker 2: making it smart but also accessible, I mean, not dumbing

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Speaker 2: things down, but also so you know, not losing some

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Speaker 2: of the fine texture of the detail. And look, I

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Speaker 2: think in my business in the university system, a lot

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Speaker 2: of us are writing for one another. A lot of

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Speaker 2: us are writing in a jargon y kind of way.

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Speaker 2: There's so many exciting things happening in psychology research, but

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Speaker 2: not everyone feels the need to disseminate it or to

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Speaker 2: learn from how the public receives it. So often things

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Speaker 2: you think are very smart. You mention it to your

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Speaker 2: strange uncle at Christmas and they think it's common sense.

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Speaker 2: So I think there's a two way street, really, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's so important that we do it, and

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Speaker 2: we do it well.

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Speaker 1: How much of about how much of understanding human behavior

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Speaker 1: happens in, for one of better terms than laboratory, and

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Speaker 1: how much happens just out in the real world at

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Speaker 1: the interface of humanity, just situation, circumstance, environment, conversation, resolving conflicts,

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Speaker 1: solving problems. For me, who's kind of I straddled both

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Speaker 1: worlds a little bit. I love what I'm doing with

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Speaker 1: my research, and I love my academic journey that's been

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Speaker 1: quite interrupted over the years. But for me, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm a better teacher and educator and communicator and

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Speaker 1: coach more based on my experience than anything I've even

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Speaker 1: researched personally or my own studies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think you're right, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: true of everyone. Really. You know, no matter how many

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Speaker 2: degrees you have and how much time you've spent doing research,

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Speaker 2: you still learn most about people just from interacting with them.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing. All of us are psychologists

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Speaker 2: only some of us are allowed to call us a

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Speaker 2: psychologist because we've been through registration, and I haven't, so

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Speaker 2: I don't call myself a psychologist. But yeah, we're all

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Speaker 2: sort of learning about human behavior from the moment we're born,

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Speaker 2: and we're all learning how others stick, how others behave.

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Speaker 2: We're incredibly good at sucking up information from the environment

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Speaker 2: about thinking, feeling, emotion, action, all of these sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: And really the academic side to it is really just

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Speaker 2: trying to make some of that unfamiliar and strange and

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Speaker 2: try to sort of take steps beyond that kind of

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Speaker 2: common sense. But generally the common sense is right. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, often you know the fact that we've spent

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Speaker 2: so much time immersed in social interaction, learning about people

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Speaker 2: and introspecting about ourselves means that we are experts even

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Speaker 2: without having done psychology degrees. So I think you're spot

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Speaker 2: on that that's where we get most of our wisdom.

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Speaker 2: But you would hope that there are some things which

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Speaker 2: we don't have common sense about. We don't know how

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Speaker 2: the brain works, we don't have intuitions about brains. We

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Speaker 2: have brains, and our brains help us have intuitions but

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Speaker 2: we don't have intuitions about how the brain works, so

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Speaker 2: you have to do neuroscience to find that out. And

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Speaker 2: I think it also we don't know what sort of

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Speaker 2: treatments are most effective for certain sorts of problems, and

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Speaker 2: we might have guesses, but unless you do the research,

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Speaker 2: you don't know. So there's a place of research. But

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Speaker 2: I completely agree with you that we get most of

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Speaker 2: our knowledge about might have behavior just from interacting with

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Speaker 2: other people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, My background before my current PhD and psyche

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Speaker 1: is excise physiology. And it's funny coming from that background

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Speaker 1: where I'm working with bodies and teams and athletes, and

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Speaker 1: it's like the protocol or the prescription or whatever for

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Speaker 1: one person that will be highly effective will be totally

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Speaker 1: inappropriate for somebody, even if somebody else, even if they've

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Speaker 1: got what seems to be similar needs and similar goals,

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Speaker 1: you know, And so this kind of what's the best

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Speaker 1: process or what's the best program, or what's the best

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Speaker 1: dose or what's the best prescription for this or that?

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Speaker 1: It's it's almost like, yeah, for who like you and

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Speaker 1: I could go to the gym tonight and we train

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Speaker 1: and we're probably similar ages and maybe I'm older than you,

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Speaker 1: but you know, we do the same workout and we've

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Speaker 1: got to say, yeah, we want to be fitting strong

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Speaker 1: and you pull up great and I can't move for

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Speaker 1: four days, or vice versa.

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Speaker 2: It's like, well, it's not vice versa.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing, Well, it's trying to figure out, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: what's best for Craig, what's best for Nick? That could

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Speaker 1: be anything from you know, what's the best job, or

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Speaker 1: what's the best work environment, or what's the best breakfast

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Speaker 1: or what's the best relationship context or what's the best

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Speaker 1: way for you know, for me, I have a certain

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Speaker 1: model of study and research and remembering and like managing

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Speaker 1: my mind around this task of study and research that

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Speaker 1: works well for me, but it wouldn't work well for

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Speaker 1: someone else. So I think, on top of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the research that comes out of all of the labs,

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Speaker 1: also trying to figure out on an individual level, how

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Speaker 1: do I work? Like what is my body? Tell me?

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Speaker 1: What is my energy? Tell me? What are my results?

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Speaker 1: Tell me? You know that N equals one thing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look at you know, research just takes care

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Speaker 2: of that as well, though I have to say, look,

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Speaker 2: I do personality psychology, that's what I teach at first

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Speaker 2: year level, and it's all about how people vary. And

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Speaker 2: I've always thought that the variation, you know, the variability

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Speaker 2: between people is the most interesting thing. You know, what

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Speaker 2: makes us unique. How you describe our differences, how you

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Speaker 2: tailor treatments or careers or whatever to human individuality. And

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Speaker 2: as you say, our bodies are highly individual, but of

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Speaker 2: course so are our minds. And understanding and measuring and

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Speaker 2: thinking hard about individual differences, I think is just one

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Speaker 2: of the most fascinating things about doing psychology.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a million answers to this question, or

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Speaker 1: multiple answers anyway, But what are some of the biggest

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Speaker 1: kind of breakthroughs or perhaps even one eighties that we've

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Speaker 1: seen in psychology in the last I don't know, as

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Speaker 1: long as you've been involved, where we've really become aware

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Speaker 1: of something else or something profound that we didn't realize

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Speaker 1: or perhaps changed our thinking about something. Has there been

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Speaker 1: any kind of big shifts in research and understanding of

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Speaker 1: not only human behavior, but the mind in general and

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Speaker 1: the brain.

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Speaker 2: They've probably been thousands. It's so hard to pick something.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'll just do the ecocentric thing and pick

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Speaker 2: on something that I've been part of Perfect Perfect, and

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Speaker 2: that's I think this idea in the mental health space

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Speaker 2: that we used to believe that people either had one

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Speaker 2: condition or they didn't, that it was a matter of kind.

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Speaker 2: You know, you had depression, or you had schizophrenia, or

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Speaker 2: you had anorex cinerversa or you didn't. And you know

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Speaker 2: DSM Diagnostic Institutical Manual American you know, Psychiatric Association's classification

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Speaker 2: of mental illness puts of synboxes. It believes that we

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Speaker 2: have mental illnesses as categories. And one of the big

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Speaker 2: I think revolutions of the last twenty years is realizing

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Speaker 2: that pretty much everything's on a spectrum, everything's a matter

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Speaker 2: of degree. Was sort of moving away from this categorical

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Speaker 2: mindset the differences between people types, and that goes for

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Speaker 2: personality types as well as mental illnesses, and that everything

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Speaker 2: is really on the bell curve. And at some level,

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Speaker 2: once you say that, you think, wow, wasn't that sort

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Speaker 2: of obvious? Well, no, it wasn't obvious to smart people

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Speaker 2: for a couple of centuries. It's still not obvious today.

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Speaker 2: People are often saying I have you know, condition X,

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Speaker 2: as if it's something that makes them categorically different from

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Speaker 2: everyone who doesn't have a condition X. But the reality

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Speaker 2: is everything's a blur, everything's a smear, And that's a

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Speaker 2: sort of revolution in thinking. That's changing how we formulate

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Speaker 2: cases in psychotherapy and how we do research on the

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Speaker 2: underpinnings of mental illness, on the treatments of mental illness.

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Speaker 2: I think that's quite a radical change. May not sound

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Speaker 2: so radically. It's not that we suddenly found a new

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Speaker 2: part of the brain or that we overturn some theory,

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Speaker 2: but we sort of had this common sense that people

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Speaker 2: fall into boxes and they just don't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I think it also, I could almost

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Speaker 1: I reckon if you tested me, depends on when you

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Speaker 1: tested me, what time of day, what day of the month,

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Speaker 1: what I'm going through, you might deduce a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of different things for me, depending on you know, It's

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Speaker 1: like if you tested my IQ, sometimes it might be

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Speaker 1: decent and other times it might be very low, depending

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Speaker 1: on my level of fatigue and my level of distraction

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Speaker 1: and my level of dress and anxiety. And yeah, so's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a lot of it's fluid, not so

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Speaker 1: much fixed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you said that beautifully. You know, I think

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Speaker 2: understanding that everything is dynamic. The thing is things very

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Speaker 2: even when you say someone's personality, even if you know

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Speaker 2: saying you know, back in the old days, you'd say

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Speaker 2: she's an introvert or he's an extrovert. That sort of

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Speaker 2: categorical language, which doesn't recognize the fact that people you know,

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Speaker 2: exist on the bell curve, but beyond being on the

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Speaker 2: bell curve, like you say, we can vary along that

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Speaker 2: spectrum on a daily basis. That doesn't mean some people

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Speaker 2: on average aren't more introverted than others. But you're right,

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Speaker 2: context really matters. Everything's fluid, everything's dynamic, and understanding that

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Speaker 2: sort of dynamics, I think is something that's happening more

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Speaker 2: and more so if you just allow me to give

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Speaker 2: a plug to some colleagues. You know, back in the

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Speaker 2: old days again, we used to measure a lot of

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Speaker 2: individual differences like personality, characteristics or you know, abilities, using

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Speaker 2: some sort of static tests and assume that the score

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Speaker 2: that you got was some fact about how you would

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Speaker 2: be for eternity. And you know, now what they do

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Speaker 2: is they have smartphone measures and you can sort of

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Speaker 2: measure things continuously throughout the day. You know, you just

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Speaker 2: randomly send people sort of twenty prompts during the day

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Speaker 2: on their smartphone and say, how are you feeling now,

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Speaker 2: what are you thinking about now? What are you observing

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Speaker 2: now in the world, And you can get a much

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Speaker 2: more sort of fluid, continuous idea of how people's mental

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Speaker 2: processes are changing in real time, rather than just people's

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Speaker 2: summaries on a questionnaire form, which might be biased in

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Speaker 2: all sorts of ways. So we're sort of getting at

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Speaker 2: the texture of experience, I think a lot more directly

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Speaker 2: than we used to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, even something like that we get introduced to

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Speaker 1: when we're young, you know, the concept of intelligence. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: he's he or she is intelligent? Oh, he's he's one

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Speaker 1: for his IQ is one forty his genius. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: he can't catch a ball, and he can't hold a

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Speaker 1: conversation and he can't clean a floor. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, you know this whole thing that it's

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Speaker 1: all myost situation or task dependent. It depends what we're

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Speaker 1: doing and where. You know, sometimes I go into a

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Speaker 1: room and I feel like I'm pretty smart. I'm pretty smart.

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Speaker 1: But I go to another room, I'm like, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: actually a moron. It's just like when I started my PhD,

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Speaker 1: right and I'm doing it at Monash in what's called

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Speaker 1: Brain Park, which is a neuroscience neuropsych lab, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not a genius anyway, but I've never felt

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Speaker 1: so stupid as my first six months in that environment

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Speaker 1: with those people and trying to learn the language, learn

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Speaker 1: the culture, learn the you know, just just how it worked.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I am actually in the wrong place.

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Speaker 1: I'm too stupid to be here. But over time you

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Speaker 1: kind of adapt and you start to learn how to think,

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Speaker 1: how to think differently, how to do research, how to

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Speaker 1: speak that language, how to write that language. Because my

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Speaker 1: last he was twenty years ago, right or twenty years

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Speaker 1: before my PhD, And so it was like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: went to Italy twenty years ago for three months and

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Speaker 1: I could speak one hundred words. But now I'm back

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Speaker 1: and I'm living here and it's like, I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: So for me, such a steep learning curve, but it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: well now actually, and I submit in about four weeks,

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Speaker 1: so I'm really at the pointy end. So but I

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Speaker 1: will say six years later because I've been kind of busy.

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Speaker 1: But six years later, so the same guy with the

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Speaker 1: same brain, arguably the same brain and the same potential

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Speaker 1: and all of that. Oh, now it's like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: very familiar. It's it's not easy, but it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I understand this now. I understand the protocol and the

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Speaker 1: process and the culture and the language and the dynamics,

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Speaker 1: and I understand all. You know. It's like, ah, so

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Speaker 1: I can even at my old age, you can still adapt,

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Speaker 1: you can still learn, you can still evolve. But I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of these things are a bit context

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Speaker 1: dependent and situation dependent.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, But I think also what I'd say is,

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Speaker 2: you know, you might have thought that your early cluelessness

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Speaker 2: was a sign of low intelligence, but it was just

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Speaker 2: a matter of low knowledge. You know, you didn't know

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Speaker 2: the rules, and the fact that you climb that learning curve,

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Speaker 2: you know, steeply, is what the intelligence was. It's your

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Speaker 2: capacity to learn. And I think we often confuse ignorance

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Speaker 2: with stupidity. You know what you don't know, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think what I've always found is the best cue

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Speaker 2: of feeling not smart enough or an impostor, which most

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Speaker 2: of us feel at some point in life. I think

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Speaker 2: is just when someone even younger and stupider comes up

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Speaker 2: underneath us and we realize, actually, I do know more

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Speaker 2: than this individual, and maybe it's more about of acquiring

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Speaker 2: knowledge rather than having some sort of fixed amount of

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Speaker 2: skill or ability or intelligence.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that do you think that the average person?

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Speaker 1: And I'm not this not a loaded question, and I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to throw anyone under any bus, but do you

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Speaker 1: think that typically we think about how we think? Like

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Speaker 1: do you think about what do I think this way?

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Speaker 1: Why do I see the world this way? Where does

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Speaker 1: this story come from? Why do I process that experience?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that people think about what's going on

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Speaker 1: cognitively and emotionally and mentally. Do you think that the

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Speaker 1: average person ponders that at all?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I do, Actually, I mean I think some more

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Speaker 2: than others, of course, like everything else, but I think

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Speaker 2: most of us are curious, are about our own minds,

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Speaker 2: and have theories about our own minds, are always forming

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Speaker 2: ideas about who we are. I mean, you can think

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Speaker 2: about that as being sort of adolescent self focused if

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Speaker 2: you like, But I think we're always trying to get

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Speaker 2: a sense of what sort of person we are, you know,

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Speaker 2: and again, it can take unhealthy forms or healthy forms.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's entirely healthy to be psychologically minded

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Speaker 2: and to always be interested in this lump of meat

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Speaker 2: in our head which is capable of doing incredible things,

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Speaker 2: and you know, learning from our mistakes and reflecting on

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Speaker 2: our values. I think that's really important. I think most

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Speaker 2: of us do that to some point, maybe lesser as

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Speaker 2: we get older, I don't know. But they're also the

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Speaker 2: unhealthy form of rumination. So I think you could also say,

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Speaker 2: you know, getting stuck in a rut thinking constantly about

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Speaker 2: why did I say that? Why did I say that

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Speaker 2: dumb thing? Does she love me? Does he love me?

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Speaker 2: A lot of that kind of repetitive thinking is also

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Speaker 2: thinking about one's own mental process, but it's completely unproductive.

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Speaker 2: But I guess the short answer is I think I've

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Speaker 2: got a lot of time for the late person. I

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Speaker 2: think everyday people are sophisticated. They care about their own

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Speaker 2: thinking as well as other people's thinking. I think it's

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Speaker 2: just part of being human.

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Speaker 1: How do we I know there's no three step plan,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just you're a straight up smarty pants, So

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Speaker 1: while you're here, I'm just going to exploit you how

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Speaker 1: do we start to understand how other people think, you know,

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Speaker 1: theory of mind. Obviously, it's really important that we at

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Speaker 1: least have an insight into how not that we need

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Speaker 1: to agree with them or align with them or support

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Speaker 1: them necessarily whatever their ideas are. But how do we

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Speaker 1: begin to understand others thinking that we might be able

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Speaker 1: to build you know, greater apport connection, trust, respect, better

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Speaker 1: into personal experiences. Where would we start with that?

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Speaker 2: Here are my three steps, Greig, Actually I'm joking.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think they thought there were four that I

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Speaker 1: was surprised. I thought there was four.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, No, if it's four, people can't at least

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Speaker 2: I can't remember more than three things at once, So

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Speaker 2: it has to be three steps. Look, I think there's

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Speaker 2: no straightforward answer to that, but I think a really

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Speaker 2: good start point is one of humility, where you think,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're probably a little bit like us. Other

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Speaker 2: people's minds probably not that different from our own. There's

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Speaker 2: probably a default tendency with many people to imagine that

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Speaker 2: other people are sort of less sophisticated, less thoughtful than others.

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Speaker 2: We've got this, you know, this set of of biases

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Speaker 2: where we tend to think that we're a little bit

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Speaker 2: better than average, and other sort of bit people a

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Speaker 2: little bit less, less, less clever and thoughtful. But get

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Speaker 2: over that bias and recognize, maybe you know, the other

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Speaker 2: people's mental life is as complicated as us. Recognize that

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Speaker 2: you have your own. So we know from social psychology,

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Speaker 2: for instance, that people tend to over attribute their own

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Speaker 2: behavior to their context, but other people's baby too much

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Speaker 2: to their personality. So recognize that maybe we're a bit

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Speaker 2: too quick to imagine that other people's behavior reflects their

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Speaker 2: character rather than just how they're responding to the environment

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Speaker 2: as they see it. So I think partly just giving

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Speaker 2: people the benefit of the doubt, some humility, recognizing that

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Speaker 2: other people are responding to the world as they see it,

401
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Speaker 2: thinking a little bit about the background they might have

402
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Speaker 2: come from, how their values might not be different from ours.

403
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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's very hard to come

404
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Speaker 2: up with a good answer to that, partly because I

405
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Speaker 2: think we're not really reflecting on it as we're doing it.

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Speaker 2: We're just doing it, and we're doing it because theory

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Speaker 2: of mind, if you want to call it that, or

408
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Speaker 2: mentalizing or mind reading, whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 2: it's a very natural thing that we're always doing.

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Speaker 1: I think also we unintentionally and probably unconsciously, I think

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Speaker 1: that other people think like us, you know, false consensus effect.

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Speaker 1: I think that's called feel free to correct me, but

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Speaker 1: it's where I assume that my intention will be your experience.

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Speaker 1: So I see you Nick, and I think, oh, I've

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Speaker 1: got some advice for Nick that would be really helpful

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Speaker 1: for him. I don't know what that would look like,

417
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Speaker 1: but you know, so I share with you some what

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Speaker 1: I think is well meaning kind of feedback or advice

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And your experience is that I'm just a meddling, interfering,

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Speaker 1: arrogant bullfaired right. So you know that that that intention

421
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Speaker 1: doesn't always land well. And even though my you know,

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Speaker 1: I have good motives and what's what's in my head

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Speaker 1: is not going to be necessarily your experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, false consensus is real, as you said,

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Speaker 2: and it's a it's a bias, but it's a pretty

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Speaker 2: good bias to have. I mean, if if you start

427
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Speaker 2: from the position that other people are like yourself, you know,

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Speaker 2: with your own complexity, with your own you know, cleverness

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Speaker 2: and thoughtfulness and feelings and intelligence and all of the

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Speaker 2: rest of it. That's a pretty good place to start,

431
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 2: you know, rather than imagining, I mean to take the opposite.

432
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 2: If you had a false dissensus and you imagined everyone

433
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 2: was dumber, stupid, or uglier, less well intentioned than yourself,

434
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: that'll be terrible. Much better to start from the idea

435
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: that others are similar to you, and then you know,

436
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: be open to learning when they're not. I think the

437
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: problem is not the false consensus to start with. It's

438
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 2: more not learning when there is evidence that the person's

439
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 2: different from you.

440
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 1: Right right when when you are in front of a group.

441
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: You do corporate stuff as well as academic stuff like

442
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 1: do you stand in front of corporates?

443
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: No, not really, I've never really got into that. The

444
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 2: closest thing I get is I do a little bit

445
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: of sub lecturing for officers in training at the ADF

446
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: on sort of leadership, but it's really not my main thing.

447
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 2: I yeah, I never thought that sort of work and

448
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't be terrifically good at it.

449
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: Come on, bro, I think you'd be all right. I

450
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: think you're a smarty pants and you can string a

451
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: few words together. I think you'd be all right. So

452
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: this is just a curiosity for me. What do you

453
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: think the Nick experience is like for the world. Not

454
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: that that's something you should be stressed or preoccupied with,

455
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: but do you ever think of that? Do you ever

456
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 1: think what is it like being around me?

457
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? I do a bit. I mean, yeah, I'm not

458
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: sure I want to go too much into the psychodrama

459
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,360
Speaker 2: of this. Look, I'm a bit of an odd cat,

460
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: I think in some ways. You know, I've always been

461
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: pretty quiet, pretty sort of intellectually in my interests. I

462
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 2: don't think it's a very typical kind of pattern for

463
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 2: an Australian male. So I've always assumed that I might

464
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 2: be a little bit intense for some people, and some

465
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 2: people might be a bit off put by the fact

466
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: that I really care about ideas, maybe more than average.

467
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: But I don't know, you know, I think I've tried

468
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: to sand off some of the sharper part of my

469
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: younger personality, and I'm probably reasonably good company some of

470
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 2: the time.

471
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: I concur your honor, I concur Yeah. I mean, for me,

472
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: it's something I was probably way more insecure and way

473
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: more issues than you. But you know, I was just

474
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: this growing up. I was just this fat kid this

475
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 1: morbidly OBUs teenager living in rural Victoria with all the issues.

476
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: So I was always obsessed about being liked and belonging

477
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: and what people thought, and you know, completely unhealthy and rational,

478
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: but nonetheless that was just my reality at that time.

479
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: And so then over the years as I worked in

480
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: media a little bit, and I've written a few books,

481
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: and I set up Australia's first personal training centers, and

482
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: so I've always been in front of people talking and

483
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: even with this show, this show's eight years down the

484
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: track and as you asked me before the show, seven

485
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: days a week, really, yeah, seven days a week. So

486
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: I always say, there's this kind of there's this duality

487
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: of trying to just meet be me and be in

488
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: the moment and just be raw and real and authentic,

489
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: but at the same time having an awareness that thousands

490
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: of people are listening to you and me have this conversation.

491
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: So how do I be relaxed and real and authentic

492
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: and me but still have an awareness that, you know,

493
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: if I say fuck, some people are going to be

494
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: absolutely fine and some people aren't. So do I do

495
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: that or not? Because when I talk, I'm not you know,

496
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: So just this whole kind of you know, level of

497
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: other awareness, you know, this kind of social awareness and this. Yeah.

498
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: So for me, it's just that's why I ask people.

499
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: I even ask CEOs when I work with companies. I go,

500
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: what do you think it's like being around you? And

501
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: the responses are fascinating, Yeah, because I.

502
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: Think it's like we probably don't reflect done explicitly. We

503
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: probably have our own guesses and private thoughts about it,

504
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: but we probably don't get asked that kind of direct

505
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: question too often. And it's a good one to answer.

506
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: I think it's probably very revealing to the person who's

507
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: giving the answer as well, because you know, I don't

508
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 2: have a prepared answer to that. That's why my response

509
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: was a bit garbled having been asked it before, and

510
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: probably a really revealing question for the CEOs in question.

511
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I've been told everything from wow, I've never

512
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: thought of that. Thank you for asking. That's I need

513
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: to I need to go away and think too. I

514
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: don't give a shit, Like literally, I don't care what

515
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: they think of me. I'm like, okay, Roger that I

516
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: think I found the problem in the culture. HiT's up

517
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: behind this door here?

518
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's very very important for someone who's powerful to

519
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: know that, because you know, they're not really going to

520
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: be getting people's authentic judgments of them. They're going to

521
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: be getting the supervient term people pleasing sort of response.

522
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: So yeah, they're not actively seeking to find out how

523
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: they're seen by others. They're never going to learn.

524
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, we spoke before a little bit about like understanding

525
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: ourselves and our own mind. Where do we again, this

526
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: is not meant to be an interview, by the way,

527
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: I prof this is just a chat, but your idea

528
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: of identity, like do we I don't even know that.

529
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: It's like the who am I question? I don't really

530
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: even think about it. I'm like, I don't know, I'm

531
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: you know, where we need to almost define who we

532
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: are for the world. Craig, what is your purpose? I

533
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: don't know. Just watch how I live and you'll probably

534
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: figure it out. Just watch what I do, how I

535
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: treat people, how I work. You probably figure out what

536
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: my values and purpose are. But I don't know. This

537
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: seems like, and maybe not in your space, but outside

538
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: of your outside of academia, there seems to be a

539
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: lot of emphasis on who am I? What am I about?

540
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: What's my mission, what's my purpose? And I'm like, well, fuck,

541
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: I don't know what day of the week is it,

542
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: because my mission and purpose today not the same as

543
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: they were on Monday. You know these things. Also, do

544
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: we need to know our identity or define our identity

545
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: in that sense?

546
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 2: Probably not. I mean I think probably we ought to

547
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: have some sort of set of principles we live by,

548
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: and we can be very confusing to other people if

549
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 2: we're not somewhat consistent about what we seem to stand

550
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: for and what we're pursuing in life. But yeah, whether

551
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: you need to formulate it, whether you need to have

552
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: some sort of sort of glossy brochure of who you

553
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: are to present to the world, that's not clear to me.

554
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: I do think it's important to have some sort of

555
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: sense of consistency and who you are. But the idea

556
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: that you need to publicize it rather than just manifest it,

557
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: I think is strange. And again a lot of people,

558
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: maybe our age, maybe a bit taken aback by how

559
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: much personal branding there is that goes among especially younger people,

560
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: where it's an attempt to say this is my identity,

561
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: this is what I stand for. Well, don't just say it,

562
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: you know, do it. Doing it. It's much more persuasive

563
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 2: than than saying it. And I think also, you know,

564
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: I think this is one of the things where your identity,

565
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: I mean, there's this you know, you'll know Eric Erickson,

566
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: this unfashionable psychoanalyst from back in the day who wrote

567
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: a lot about identity and identity and adolescence and as

568
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: an achievement of adolescens. You know, figuring out who you

569
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: are is something that you sort of need to do

570
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: in some way when you were younger, but at some

571
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: point you sort of become settled. It becomes of crystallized

572
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: who you think you are. You may not even have

573
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: it sort of worked out in a series of statements

574
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: in your head, but you've still sort of figured out

575
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: who you are, and from then on you don't need

576
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: to think about it quite so much. But forming it

577
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: in the first place and sort of trying on different identities,

578
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: putting on different hats. I'm this sort of person, I'm

579
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: that sort of person. Maybe different careers, maybe different interests,

580
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: maybe it's different ways of dressing, whatever it might be.

581
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,239
Speaker 2: You go through that sort of stage of figuring out

582
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: who you are, and then you settle on something, and

583
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: I think it's worth having that sense of self. But

584
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: you don't need to obsess about it, and you don't

585
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: need to be always telling people about it.

586
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: All right, So I'm going to ask you. So we've

587
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: had the easy interlude. Now I'm going to push your

588
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: buttons or I'm going to test you. Tell me about

589
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: like your interest in the mind, Like what drew you

590
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: to research how the mind works, how we work, Like

591
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: what was the genesis for that? If anything, was there,

592
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: something that happened. Was it just always existing fascination or curiosity.

593
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: No, I don't think it was always existing fascination. I

594
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 2: think you know my story. Again, this is a very

595
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: long time ago. I was always nature boy. So when

596
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: I was growing up, I was rested in a bird watching,

597
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: I collected insects. I had a much loved uncle who

598
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: worked for the CSIO, who was a botanist and who

599
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: was interested in plants. And I just loved being out

600
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: in nature. Did a lot of hiking, a lot of

601
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: cross country skiing. Just just loved the bush basically, And

602
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: I wanted to study animal behavior, so I got turned

603
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: onto this field called ethology, the study of instinctive animal behavior,

604
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: by this uncle and you know, even in high school

605
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: I was sort of getting into that and reading complicated

606
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: books about that, and I thought, this is what I

607
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: want to do, and how will you do that? Well,

608
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: I've thought of do psychology, so I enrolled in a

609
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: psychology degree. And then that's when I started getting to

610
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,239
Speaker 2: the people, you know, rather than animals, partly because when

611
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: there was no animal behavior in psychology at Melbourne University

612
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: at that time, nor is there now. So I sort

613
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: of started off interested in just you know, living creatures

614
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: as a sort of part of biology. And then I

615
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: just got turned on by actually psychoanalysis, by you know,

616
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: ideas which are very unfashionable now, you know Freud. I've

617
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: became very sort of passionate about understanding so the deeper

618
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: unconscious sides of human experience, and you know, that just

619
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: sort of took me forward until grad school, and you know,

620
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: I got on the sort of research path rather than

621
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: getting to this idea that I'd be a therapist of

622
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: some sort. And yeah, I sort of taken all sorts

623
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: of twists and turns since then. So you know, I

624
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: started with animals and got into humans. And my PhD

625
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: supervisor was actually anthropologist and he was interested in how

626
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: people form social relationships all around the world. He'd done

627
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: he'd done anthological field work in West Africa, and so

628
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: it got me into culture. So and I've just sort

629
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: of flitted around, I mean, compared to the average academic career,

630
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: I've sort of, you know, wanted side to side and

631
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: just found new things fascinating. Some of it personality, some

632
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: of its social psychology, some of it clinical psychology. Again,

633
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: this might all seem a little bit narrow from the

634
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: point of view of you know, life in general, but

635
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: within psychology, I just get curious about stuff. So it

636
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: sort of started with insects and ended with people.

637
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: Wow, I love it. I was talking to somebody this

638
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: morning at the cafe as I do, and they were

639
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: talking to me about this new doctor that they've got

640
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: and how they love this doctor. I'm like, why do

641
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: you love this doctor? Oh? He's awesome, Like he's funny,

642
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: he gets me, he asked good questions, he doesn't rush

643
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: me out the door, he looks at me. He doesn't

644
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: sit there staring at his computer screen like the last one. Dad.

645
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: It was all this nothing to do with medicine, nothing

646
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: to do with medical knowledge. Like I'm like, you just

647
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: like him, like, and it was the bottom line was

648
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: she felt safe, she felt comfortable, she trusts him, she

649
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: feels confident in his I'm like, it is so interesting

650
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: that you know whatever it is about, you know, it's

651
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: like and even I used to marvel at this. So

652
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 1: I trained over the years, like I owned multiple gyms,

653
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: and I for a very long time just worked one

654
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: on one with people doing conditioning, personal training, you know, athletes,

655
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: non athletes and teams and all of that. But in

656
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: thirty years of working at the coal face of exercise

657
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: fitness and kind of that physiological change space, I got

658
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: asked once in thirty years what my qualifications were like

659
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: Because people would come in, you'd build rapport, they'd like

660
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: you, you'd have fun, The experience was good. Yes, we'd do

661
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: the workout, we'd get a bit sweaty, we'd talk about food,

662
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: and we'd talk about sleep and life style and behaviors

663
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: and habits and accountability and process and timeline and decision

664
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: making and exercise progression. Like we talk about all this stuff.

665
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: But it's like, but the most important thing was one,

666
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: they liked me too, they trusted me, and three they

667
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: enjoyed the experience it's got. It's funny how little it

668
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: has to do with your knowledge or academic credibility or qualifications.

669
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: Quite often when it's that interpersonal thing, you know, even

670
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: in a medical or clinical setting.

671
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you know it's not just you saying that.

672
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a whole bunch of research on this. Say,

673
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: I don't know the personal training space at all, but psychotherapy,

674
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: i'm sure is not radically different nor being a regular GP. Ultimately,

675
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: it's a sort of form of healing and self improvement

676
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 2: and building and boosting well being. And we know that

677
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: the best predictor of whether you're going to improve in

678
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 2: therapy is not the qualification that your therapist has. It's

679
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: not the technique that she or he uses with you.

680
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: It's not the theoretical orientation that they bring to the therapy.

681
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: It's the quality of the relationship and the quality of

682
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: the alliance. Is it a working relationship where there is trust,

683
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: where there is shared understanding, where there's agreement about goals

684
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: and processes, and is it just a sort of fundamental

685
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 2: gelling of the two people involved. The relationship really matters.

686
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: And that's not exactly how you were framing it. It was,

687
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: but I think ultimately a lot of this is about

688
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 2: is it a good relationship. Now, some people are better

689
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: than others at forming as therapists or doctors or personal trainers,

690
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: no doubt, at forming those relationships, but the quality of

691
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 2: that bond is the platform on which the healing happens.

692
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: I think in many cases now I'm still being a

693
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 2: university people person believe that the knowledge helps at that point,

694
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: but there's no point having all the knowledge in the

695
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: world unless you can form that relationship, and unless you

696
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: can form the human connection on which it builds.

697
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I see that too in public speaking,

698
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, with not so much academic settings, but in

699
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: corporate settings where someone will come in. I'll often go

700
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: to an event, it'll be a conference, a full day,

701
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: and I meet someone, I'm talking to them, I'm like, Wow,

702
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: she's amazing. She is she is so smart or he

703
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: is whoever him her, And they've written a book or two,

704
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: they've done all this great research there, you know, like

705
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: very very knowledgeable, and then they get up to talk.

706
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: Some of them are brilliant, of course, but there are

707
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: a percentage that create more confusion than clarity and more

708
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: disconnection than connection, and it's like, oh, wow, you know

709
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: so much, but you don't know how to share that

710
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: in a way that's user friendly for one of a

711
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: less complicated term, you know, And it's it's you know,

712
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about that before. How do I share

713
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: this information which might be valuable to people, in a

714
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: way which is actually valuable to them so they can

715
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: do something with it. I think that's that's the ever

716
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: present challenge, you know, well in my job anyway, I

717
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about talking about, you know, belief

718
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: and like managing the mind around others, and a big

719
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: part of whether or not this this dynamic between the

720
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: doctor and the patient, or the psychologist and the patient,

721
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: or the personal trainer and the client or whatever is

722
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: going to work on, you know, a lot of that

723
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 1: is about what's happening in the mind, which reminds me

724
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: of a podcast too. Podcast I've done with a guy

725
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: from Harvard University called Professor Jeffrey Retteger. His whole field

726
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: of research. He's a psychiatry, medical doctors, psychiatrist, researcher who

727
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: last time I spoke with him, which is probably a

728
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: year ago, i'd imagine, is in the same space, was

729
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: just like fully immersed in place ebos and no cebos

730
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: and the power of the mind to here the body,

731
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: whatever we want to call it. Have you ever not

732
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: necessarily gone into that space from a research perspective, but

733
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: have you ever opened that door yourself and just taken

734
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: a peek in and been curious about that stuff?

735
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: Not much, I mean, but I think it's part of

736
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: the common sense of the field that these effects are

737
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: quite powerful on a fairly large proportion of a lot

738
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: of treatments is ultimately place ebo, you know, you know.

739
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: So I think whatever is causing it, the power of expectations,

740
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 2: the power of the power of the placebo effect, whatever

741
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: is behind it, I'm not one hundred percent clear on.

742
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 2: But the fact that it's real and the fact that

743
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: you know, a large proportion of the effect of antidepressants,

744
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: for instance, is placebo effect. Is the expectation that this

745
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: is going to work for me. So yeah, I think

746
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: you've got to recognize that, and you've got to take

747
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: it seriously, and I think it makes us more humble

748
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: about again, the role of technique and knowledge versus just

749
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 2: the role of positive expectations and having a good, if

750
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: you like, connection with a therapist or healer. A lot

751
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: of it's just the power of the expectation or anything

752
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: that that healer is actually doing or that drug is

753
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: actually doing. So I haven't gone into it deeply, I

754
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: think also from the Nasibot point of view. Yeah, I'm

755
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: sort of getting into this a little bit because some

756
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 2: of what I'm writing about these days has to do

757
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: with the possible downsides of mental health awareness, where people

758
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 2: are increasingly I think the cause our concepts of mental

759
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 2: ill health tend to be broadening some people, not the majority,

760
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: but some people are self diagnosing with mental health conditions inappropriately,

761
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 2: and that can have a no sebo effect. Simply the

762
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: act of classifying oneself as having a mental health problem

763
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,879
Speaker 2: can lead to all sorts of downstream of negative consequences

764
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: for your identity, for your mood, for your behavior. So

765
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 2: the short answer which I could have given is not

766
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: very much. I haven't really explored it as an academic,

767
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 2: but I think these things are hugely powerful.

768
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: You should come up with a concept called concept creep.

769
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: I'm just throwing that out there for you should think

770
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: about that. You know, it's brand new, just came to me,

771
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, I'm being facetious. Everybody Professor Nick is quite

772
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: renowned for that idea. Could you just in one of

773
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: as many minutes as you want. I was going to say,

774
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: could you explain you kind of did or you open

775
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: the door a bit, could you explain concept creep to us?

776
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean earlier you said we had three hours,

777
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: so I figured I'll go to the end of that

778
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: if it's all right. Yeah, Look, concept creep is this

779
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 2: idea I came up with about nine years ago, and

780
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: it's essentially just saying that in recent decades, our concepts

781
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: related to harm, you know, concepts like bullying, abuse, prejudice,

782
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: mental illness, safety, have tended to broaden their meanings so

783
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: that we now include a wider range of phenomena within them.

784
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 2: So I mean to make it concrete bullying, let me

785
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: just give you the case study of that. So bullying

786
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: is bad. Bullying is a bad thing. Everyone agrees with that.

787
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: But what we just define as bullying has broadened through time.

788
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 2: So again to give you the brief version. Bullying was

789
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: introduced to psychology by this Norwegian psychologist called Dan Olius,

790
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: and he was really explicit that bullying is a very

791
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: particular kind of peer aggression among kids. It has to

792
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: be intentional, that is, the bully have to be intentionally

793
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 2: intimidating or harming another kid. It has to be repeated.

794
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: That is, a single episode of bad behavior is not bullying.

795
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: It has to be perpetrated downward in some sort of hierarchy,

796
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: like a bigger kid against a smaller kid, or multiple

797
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: kids against a single kid. And it's mostly active forms

798
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 2: of aggression, you know, punching, beating, intimidating, threatening, things like that.

799
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: So that's what he defined bullying as being back in

800
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. But then if you follow how bullying

801
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: is being defined more recently, it's expanded in all sorts

802
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: of ways. So now we include behaviors bullying which isn't intentional.

803
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: Now we allow single episodes of intimidating behavior to be

804
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 2: counted as bullying. Now we allow you to we define

805
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: as bullying when you behave badly not just to people

806
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: beneath you on some hierarchy, but also according to my

807
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: university's HR modules, I could bully fellow professors or even

808
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: my boss. So bullying can be upwards and lateral. And

809
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: of course, as we all know, the constant of bullying

810
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: has been expanded out of the domain of just childhood

811
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: and playgrounds and schools into boardrooms and at offices. So

812
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 2: this is simply one example I could give to tell

813
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 2: the same story about addiction and about abuse, about mental illness,

814
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: about trauma. All of these concepts, for whatever reason, over

815
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: the last few decades have broadened their meanings, so they

816
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: now refer to a much wider range of phenomena than

817
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: they used to. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

818
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,479
Speaker 2: I never say that's a bad thing. I just say,

819
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: maybe that cultural change which has made us more sensitive

820
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: to harm and to find more sort of mild experiences

821
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 2: as being harmful, maybe it has costs but also benefits.

822
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: Is it tricky for you? I mean, obviously who you

823
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: are and what you do, you well, you know, well respected,

824
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: and you've got a you know, a very respectable position

825
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: in an amazing university in all of those things. Do

826
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: you have to be really? Really? Do you really have

827
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: to feelter what you say? Because and I'm not saying

828
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: that everything you just said you don't mean. I believe

829
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: you do. But I feel like for me, who's I'm

830
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: not you? Right? So I can, within reason without being

831
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: inappropriate or distasteful. I can. I can say things that

832
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: you probably can't say, and I'm not going to get

833
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 1: in trouble. Is that tricky for you to navigate that

834
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: you saying what you truly believe, but also working within

835
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: the confines and the parameters of, as you mentioned, HR

836
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: within the UNI system.

837
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: That's a really good question and a hard one to answer.

838
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: I guess it's not difficult in the sense that no

839
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: one within the university has ever told me stop saying this.

840
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: I don't get any sort of pressure from colleagues to

841
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: reign in what I say, and that's partly because I

842
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: say it always in a very careful, modulated, you know,

843
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: non inflammatory sort of way. But I think it's also

844
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: true that this idea does go against the zeitgeist a

845
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 2: bit within my field. So I get and I get

846
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: some quite nasty commentary by some colleagues elsewhere and from

847
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: the general public. I did a thing recently on All

848
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,959
Speaker 2: in the Mind, the ABC radio program, talking about concept creep,

849
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: and I got basically hate mail from a couple of people.

850
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 2: So I think if you wanted an easy life where

851
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: no one was sniping at you, you probably wouldn't talk

852
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 2: about this sort of topic, but I think it's really important.

853
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 2: I don't think it's intrinsically a reactionary idea, or don't

854
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: think it's intrinsically an insensitive idea. All I can do

855
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: is speak about it in a way which I think

856
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: is responsible and balanced. So I don't get any official

857
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: pressure against it, but I do get a little bit

858
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 2: of backlash from people who misunderstanding what I'm saying.

859
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: This is a much bigger question than we have time for,

860
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: so I probably shouldn't ask it, but I'm going to.

861
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated. I just want your thoughts on this.

862
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: We don't need an answer or a direction, but just

863
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: your thoughts. So you know, I've been fascinated with my

864
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: whole life the idea of potential, like what's possible for me?

865
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: Because I wasn't talented, gifted, special, intelligent, right, and so

866
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: I realized if I was going to do well, that

867
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: would only be through work and effort and discipline and

868
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: self control and repetition and application. And also so success

869
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: also like the relationship between what's happening in my external

870
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: world and my internal world. So by the time when

871
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: I came out of school, I worked really hard. I

872
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: didn't go to university until I was in my thirties

873
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: for the first time. I did my first degree in

874
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: my thirties, but I just worked in gyms and I

875
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 1: built a business. I employed five hundred people, I made

876
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: lots of go I did really well. If we're doing

877
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: really well, manas your business succeeded, then I did really well.

878
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: But what was a really interesting revelation for me was,

879
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: in the middle of all of my success, what seemed

880
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: to be outside looking in success Professor, my life was

881
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: a fucking catastrophe. Like I felt mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually bankrupt,

882
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: and so I'd kind of tick this box. Now. I'm

883
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: not saying my experience is the usual. I'm saying that

884
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: was just my experience. But I'd like to hear about,

885
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, your thoughts on contentment, happiness, fulfillment. I don't know,

886
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: and the relationship between what's happening around us and what's

887
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: happening within us, because I think we kind of grow

888
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: up in a mindset that success is about what you

889
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: have and what you earn, and what your own and

890
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: what you drive, and what people think you and what

891
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: you look like and your brand and your Facebook likes

892
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: or your you know, talk to us a little bit

893
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: about I know that's massive, but what are your thoughts

894
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: on that?

895
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: Wow? Yeah, that's a big question. Look, I think what

896
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 2: you were describing is a pretty you know, common experience,

897
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: especially in midlife, you know, among people who have experienced

898
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: certain kinds of conventional success, which evidently you have and

899
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: which you know not everyone does. And it's it's sort

900
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: of masking some you know, some things which you're missing,

901
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: or somethings which aren't going so well, or some costs

902
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: that you've borne in order to have those successes. And

903
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: it's just good that you've got this sense that rather

904
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: than giving up or throwing in the towel or you know,

905
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: you've actually tried to make positive change out of it.

906
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: I think contentments something that just comes slowly, and it's

907
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 2: comes through balancing, balancing all these complexities and not giving

908
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: up on those initial goals and motives, but just finding

909
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: a way to be a bit softer on yourself. I mean,

910
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: self compassion, I think is so important. I guess I'm

911
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: spinning my wheels here. I don't really have a clear

912
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: a clear out that's good, But I think you know

913
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: what you're describing I can resonate with I haven't had

914
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 2: the same sort of success in most respects, probably, But yeah,

915
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 2: I think you sort of you find that the things

916
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: that were working for you in your thirties and forties,

917
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: the sort of drive you think, well, that didn't actually

918
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: give me everything I thought I was going to get

919
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: out of it, but maybe along the way over quite

920
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: some other sort of wisdom, and now I can sort

921
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: of relax and have a bit more perspective on things.

922
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: And I think often, especially with guys, probably a lot

923
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 2: of what you've done in the first half of your

924
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: life is sort of building for yourself and maybe sometimes

925
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: not saying this is about true about you neglected your

926
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 2: connection to others, and maybe it's a time to sort

927
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: of reconnect. And the same way that sometimes you find

928
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: the reverse pattern about women, where there's been more giving

929
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: towards others, and later in life there's a sort of

930
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 2: find that I can sort of invest in myself a

931
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: little bit more. But you know, I think contentment's always

932
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: an achievement, and it's always provisional, and it doesn't always laugh.

933
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: And this idea that you somehow you reached this plateau

934
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: of everlasting happiness is a big illusion. At least that's

935
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: been my experience.

936
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I interviewed an English

937
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: lady who had a really traumatic experience. In nine ninety seven,

938
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: she moved to Batan. She became the first Western woman

939
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: to be ordained in as a Buddhist nun. And she's gorgeous,

940
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: like just the nicest person. And I interviewed her yesterday

941
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: and I said, and she almost got grumpy at me

942
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: when I asked her this question, as grumpy as she

943
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: could get, which is not grumpy. I said, essentially, what

944
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: does Buddhism have to say about happiness? You know, like

945
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: the human experience and happiness. And she's like, happiness is

946
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: not a natural state. It's like your brain's job isn't

947
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: to make you happy. And I'm like, yep, and it was.

948
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because we I just wait, that's so true.

949
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: You know. It's like you it's to you know, whatever

950
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: protect you or predict danger and all of those things.

951
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's like, happiness is not it's not our

952
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: default setting, is it, But we kind of think it

953
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: should be.

954
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I think it's it's really hard if

955
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: you're pursuing happiness to find it. In fact, I think

956
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 2: pursuing happiness tends to be counterproductive. And I think what

957
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 2: I like about some of the sort of well being

958
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 2: science that's out there at the moment, and I think

959
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: a lot of it's more philosophy and theory than science.

960
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: But that's just my take is that you know, really

961
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 2: you can choose to some extent according to your life philosophy.

962
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: What are you trying to maximize? Are you trying to

963
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: maximize happiness? If so, probably seeking it won't get you there.

964
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 2: But or are you trying to maximize meaning and purpose?

965
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: You know, are you trying to you know whether or

966
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: not you're you're happy or unhappy? Do you have a

967
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 2: sense of you know, what I'm doing matters what I'm

968
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: doing and who I am matters to other people, or

969
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: matters to some sort of transcendent goal I have? You know,

970
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 2: have I had a life that was meaningful? But then

971
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,479
Speaker 2: I think newish work by a psychologist in the US

972
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: called shige Ishi says you can also separate from that

973
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: have value of life that's just rich, doesn't need to

974
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 2: be meaningful, but just has diverse experiences. You could pursue

975
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: a rich life, not necessarily a meaningful life, not necessarily

976
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: a happy life, and all of these things, what are

977
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: you whether you're trying to maximize richness, meaning or happiness

978
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: leads to sort of different approaches to what you do

979
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 2: in your experience. And if you're pursuing the rich life,

980
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 2: you probably will have more misery than if you're pursuing

981
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 2: the happy life or the meaningful life. But it'll maybe

982
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 2: add up to something sort of which on your deathbed

983
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: you'll think, Wow, what a life that was.

984
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, can I be really rude? How old are you? Prof?

985
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: Sixty two were the same? I'm curious where? Yeah, how's

986
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: your brain working?

987
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 2: I think it's working as well as it ever has

988
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 2: to be honest. I mean, I think my partner might

989
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 2: disagree on that and point to a very large number

990
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 2: of failings. But it's actually as sharp as it's ever been,

991
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: I think, you know, And that's partly because I had

992
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: positions of leadership within the university which really are just

993
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 2: warm me out and which just consumed all my energies

994
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 2: and to basically crushed my curiosity. And now I've sort

995
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 2: of come out the other end of it, and I've

996
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: got time to think and read I'm not overburdened with responsibilities.

997
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 2: I can choose the sort of activities that I enjoy.

998
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm the taxpayer is getting good money for

999
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 2: value for money. I should say, I'm not just sciving off,

1000
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 2: but I'm actually choosing the things I want to do

1001
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: in a kind of mindful way and loving it and

1002
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 2: being super productive in the in the sort of things

1003
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: that academics are meant to be productive in. I think

1004
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 2: it's as good as ever. So yeah, high idea that

1005
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 2: I think it's all cognitive decline from the forties, I'm

1006
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: not buying it.

1007
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 1: Yep, you and me both. Hey, I have to talk

1008
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: to you forever. We're going to say goodbye our fair

1009
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 1: But before we go, is there anything you want to

1010
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: draw our attention, our listener's attention to books, websites, research,

1011
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: anything that you want to push or promote or make

1012
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: people aware of.

1013
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,959
Speaker 2: I think nothing that I've got necessarily, but I think

1014
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 2: there's some terrific work out there. There's a book I

1015
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: just recommended on the Conversations you know Best Books of

1016
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five British neurologists called Susann O'Sullivan called the

1017
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 2: Age of Diagnosis, which I think is a really fascinating

1018
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 2: book about the role sometimes negative I would say, about

1019
00:54:55,080 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 2: our increasing willingness to diagnose ourselves with anyumber of conditions.

1020
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 2: So I think that's really something I think is a

1021
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: very weird thing worth publicizing. Or just look up my wad,

1022
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,720
Speaker 2: look at my website and find some of my papers.

1023
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: If you want help sleeping.

1024
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye fair but for the minute, Professor Nick Haslm,

1025
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time, Yeah, and your generosity.

1026
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: It's been really nice. Thank you.

1027
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 2: Thanks Greg, I really enjoyed myself. Thank you.