WEBVTT - Peter Greste on the latest blow against whistleblowers

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlin Macgee. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>There's been another strike against whistleblowing. Richard Boyle was a

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<v Speaker 1>tax office employee when he raised concerns internally about a

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<v Speaker 1>scheme to garnish overdue taxes directly from people's bank accounts,

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<v Speaker 1>and when that didn't work, he told journalists. But accord

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<v Speaker 1>to Adelaide, yesterday upheld a ruling that he's not a whistleblower,

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<v Speaker 1>which means he now has no defense for leaking that

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<v Speaker 1>confidential information. Today Mcquarie University professor of journalism and whistleblower

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<v Speaker 1>advocate Peter Grestor on why the government talks big on

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<v Speaker 1>open democracy but hasn't acted to fix the system. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>June twenty Peter. Richard Boyle's been in and out of

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<v Speaker 1>court for a few years now. His case hasn't even

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<v Speaker 1>gone to trial yet, though. Remind us why he is

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<v Speaker 1>in this position.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a pretty tragic, troubling story. I think about

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<v Speaker 2>five or six years ago, Richard was working as a

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<v Speaker 2>tax official in the office, the ATO office in Adelaide,

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<v Speaker 2>and he saw what they're called garner she notices, which

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<v Speaker 2>are automatic notices that the office is able to issue

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<v Speaker 2>to banks to give them money from people that owe

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<v Speaker 2>them tax without getting clearance from the people themselves, the

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<v Speaker 2>taxpayers themselves, and at one level that strictly speaking, that's legal,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was putting enormous pressure on individuals who caught

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<v Speaker 2>themselves in all sorts of strife, businesses that were struggling

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with some of the things that businesses normally

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<v Speaker 2>deal with, and who were happy to cover the bills

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<v Speaker 2>but just couldn't deal with the kind of pressure of

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<v Speaker 2>a whacking break big tax bill at that point, and

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<v Speaker 2>Richard felt that that was highly unethical. He made a

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<v Speaker 2>complaint or reported the problem to his superior They dismissed

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<v Speaker 2>the issue. He then went to the media, to the ABC,

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<v Speaker 2>and he took some recordings as evidence of what the

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<v Speaker 2>Tax Office was doing.

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<v Speaker 3>Tonight, we meet people who say their lives have been

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<v Speaker 3>destroyed by the heavy handed tactics of the ATO. Among

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<v Speaker 3>them is a whistleblower who describes a toxic culture driven

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<v Speaker 3>by revenue targets and KPIs that staff likened to a

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<v Speaker 3>cash grab.

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<v Speaker 4>Richard was soon after out it as the source.

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<v Speaker 3>Last week and the lead up to our program, his

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<v Speaker 3>home was raided by the ATO and the federal police.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it came with quite a shock.

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<v Speaker 2>Richard and his wife were in their Adelaide apartment early

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<v Speaker 2>in the morning, just getting ready to go out. I

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<v Speaker 2>think Richard had just been in the shower, and the

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<v Speaker 2>AFP came in, barged in with handcuffs and weapons and

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<v Speaker 2>so on, and started going through his draws, personal belongings, documents,

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much everything, and dragged him off for questioning.

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<v Speaker 5>Seems very vindictive that they would do this, use public resources,

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<v Speaker 5>massive amounts of public resources to investigate someone who's blown

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<v Speaker 5>the whistle because uneffeole behavior in the strange taxation office.

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<v Speaker 2>And he's been on trial ever since for illegally taking

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<v Speaker 2>tax office records, illegally recording the details of taxpayers.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, strictly speaking, that's true.

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<v Speaker 2>He did make those recordings, he did keep those documents,

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<v Speaker 2>he did pass them on. But what Richard and a

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<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of supporters, including myself, have been arguing is

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<v Speaker 2>that it was an essential part of the whistleblowing process.

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<v Speaker 2>And in the end, the ATO was forced to look

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<v Speaker 2>at its processes, look at how it was using Ganashee

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<v Speaker 2>notices and acknowledged that they were abusive and harmful and

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<v Speaker 2>causing a lot of people enormous stress, and it changed

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<v Speaker 2>its practices.

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<v Speaker 6>As countless subsequent inquiries, including from this Chamber, have conclusively

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<v Speaker 6>found this was the Tax Office rogodeb And while that

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<v Speaker 6>Role Commission has just finished with damning findings against the

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<v Speaker 6>scheme's authors, Richard is the only one from the Tax

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<v Speaker 6>offers facing legal sanction.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're in this rather crazy situation of a guy

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<v Speaker 2>exposing something that had to be exposed, that was causing

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<v Speaker 2>enormous pressure that the government has changed. But the guy

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<v Speaker 2>that exposed that is now being prosecuted for the act

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<v Speaker 2>of blowing the whistle, and that strikes me as pretty tragic.

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<v Speaker 1>Richard was back in court in Adelaide yesterday morning talk

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<v Speaker 1>me through what's happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So Richard had originally argued that he was he should

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<v Speaker 2>be immune from prosecution under whistleblowing legislation, which allows whistleblowers

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<v Speaker 2>to be protected if they're exposing things in the public interest.

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<v Speaker 7>Judge judgment in this case found that whistleblowing laws only

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<v Speaker 7>provided narrow protection to Richard. Boyle only protected the actual

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<v Speaker 7>act of disclosure, not his conduct in preparing to speak.

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<v Speaker 2>Into Now Richard lost that appeal, or lost that argument rather,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he went to the South Australian Court of

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<v Speaker 2>Appeal and it was the Court of Appeal that has

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<v Speaker 2>heard his argument and they threw that appeal out. So

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<v Speaker 2>Richard now has to face trial and potentially quite a

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<v Speaker 2>few years behind bars if he loses it.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me a little bit more about that whistle blow

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<v Speaker 1>a protection he was asking for. What does it mean

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<v Speaker 1>for people when they're facing these kinds of charges, all

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<v Speaker 1>these kinds of cases.

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<v Speaker 2>What it's supposed to do is give public servants the

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<v Speaker 2>power of the ability to expose misdeeds within government if

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<v Speaker 2>what they're doing is in the public interest. Remember they

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<v Speaker 2>are literally public servants. They're supposed to be serving us,

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<v Speaker 2>not the government. And pretty sure everyone recognizes there is

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<v Speaker 2>an enormous power imbalance between individuals and the state, and

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<v Speaker 2>when the state is abusing that power, then we need

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<v Speaker 2>whistle blowers who have the capacity to expose those things

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<v Speaker 2>in the public interest. Now, the Attorney General Mark Dreyfuss

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<v Speaker 2>has acknowledged quite some time ago that whistleblower protections simply

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<v Speaker 2>aren't working because we see cases like Richard's and David McBride,

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<v Speaker 2>who was the whistleblower that exposed allegations of war crimes

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<v Speaker 2>by Australian's Special forces. He just went to prison a

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<v Speaker 2>month or so ago, which is also pretty tragic, and

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<v Speaker 2>the Attorney General has promised to reform the whistleblower protections

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<v Speaker 2>and increase the public interest defense.

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<v Speaker 8>The Albanezer government is committed to restoring trust and integrity

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<v Speaker 8>to government and an effective public sector whistleblowing framework is

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<v Speaker 8>essential to achieving this, including to support disclosures of corrupt

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<v Speaker 8>conduct to the National Lady Corruption Commission.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, we had hoped that Richard would be able to

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<v Speaker 2>lean on that public interest defense in this particular case, and.

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<v Speaker 4>I argue that he was acting on behalf of all

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<v Speaker 4>of us.

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<v Speaker 2>What we saw yesterday was I think a very serious

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<v Speaker 2>blow to anybody than any public servants who might be

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<v Speaker 2>seeing wrongdoing and thinking about following Richard's example. This is

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<v Speaker 2>going to have a very very chilling effect I think

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<v Speaker 2>on whistle blowing and I think on press freedom. Richard really,

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<v Speaker 2>which is one of my big concerns. I think judges

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<v Speaker 2>tend to look at the very narrow detail of what

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<v Speaker 2>they did wrong in the law, and the law is

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<v Speaker 2>very clear and way that against a sort of rather

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<v Speaker 2>mushier ideal around the public interest. And what we're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia repeatedly happen is that the judges say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I can see that you broke this law very very clearly,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I've got no real option but to find

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<v Speaker 2>you guilty of that offense. That's what we saw happen

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<v Speaker 2>in David McBride's case. Again, we've all been arguing, myself

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<v Speaker 2>and a whole bunch of others who've been supporting the

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<v Speaker 2>whistleblowers have been arguing that that public interest needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be taken into account and the courts just don't seem

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<v Speaker 2>to have the capacity or the world.

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<v Speaker 4>To do it.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, why the government seems to be all

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<v Speaker 1>talk and no action, Peter, The Albanese government says it

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<v Speaker 1>is committed to transparency. It says things should improve for whistleblowers.

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<v Speaker 1>You laugh, Tell me why you're laughing.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember Mark Drevers before the last election, published on

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<v Speaker 2>his own website a very clear statement that he was

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<v Speaker 2>committed to transparency, to improving whistleblower protections, to making sure

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<v Speaker 2>that the government worked for the people, not for itself.

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<v Speaker 9>I have a near permanent interest in whistleblower protection, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>To his credit, I suppose Mark Dravis has also gone

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<v Speaker 2>through a process of reviewing whistleblower legislation.

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<v Speaker 9>Now, looking at the suggestions that have come in from

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<v Speaker 9>the public, from other members of Parliament about what further

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<v Speaker 9>reforms are needed for our whistle blower protection scheme, and

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<v Speaker 9>I'm looking forward to enacting those.

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<v Speaker 2>But these two cases, in particular, Richard Boyles and David

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<v Speaker 2>McBride's been so emblematic that we've felt that it's really

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<v Speaker 2>important that the Attorney General follow up that rhetoric and

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<v Speaker 2>act on these two cases and withdraw the prosecutions. By

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<v Speaker 2>not following through, I think it sends a really bad message.

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<v Speaker 2>It suggests that the government just isn't serious about following

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<v Speaker 2>through on all of those promises, and I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>a very bad look. But I think it's also really

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<v Speaker 2>important that we underlie. We remind our politicians, we remind

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<v Speaker 2>our public servants that they're supposed to work for us.

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<v Speaker 2>We are their employers. You know, when we pay our taxes,

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<v Speaker 2>we pay their wages. When we go to vote, we

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<v Speaker 2>effectively decide who we're hiring.

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<v Speaker 4>To run.

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<v Speaker 2>They work for us, not the other way around. That

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<v Speaker 2>means that they need to be accountable to us. And

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<v Speaker 2>the mechanisms that we do that, partly are through the courts,

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<v Speaker 2>through all sorts of oversight bodies, but also through the press.

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<v Speaker 2>And we cannot do that if whistleblowers are being prosecuted

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<v Speaker 2>for going to the press. That is an essential mechanism,

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<v Speaker 2>an essential safety valve which keeps our system of democracy honest,

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<v Speaker 2>and at the moment it's just not working.

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<v Speaker 1>And so Peter, what is the fix here? If the

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<v Speaker 1>courts are following the law, how does the law need

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<v Speaker 1>to change? What does it look like in an ideal situation?

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<v Speaker 2>The law needs to give far greater emphasis to the

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<v Speaker 2>public interest defense. It needs to recognize that there is

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<v Speaker 2>a very potent need, a very important democratic need, to

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<v Speaker 2>give whistleblowers that defense and make sure that it is usable.

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<v Speaker 2>There are a couple of other steps that the law

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<v Speaker 2>or that the government needs to do, and one of

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<v Speaker 2>them is to set up an independent whistleblower authority that

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<v Speaker 2>has the capacity to help whistleblowers navigate the very complicated

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<v Speaker 2>legal mechanisms to make sure that they're able to stay

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<v Speaker 2>on the right side of the law to give them

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<v Speaker 2>advice and support and make sure that whistleblowers are protected

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<v Speaker 2>or punished. It's certainly something that would also signal the

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<v Speaker 2>government's seriousness about supporting whistleblowing.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think the Prime Minister's appetite is like

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<v Speaker 1>for that?

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<v Speaker 2>The Prime Minister and the Attorney General very very forthright

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<v Speaker 2>in opposition less so now. And you know, as we've

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<v Speaker 2>seen in recent reporting, the Financial Review looking at a

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<v Speaker 2>particular speech that the Prime Minister gave some time ago

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<v Speaker 2>when he was in opposition about the importance of transparency

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<v Speaker 2>and accountability. And so the vin Review discovered that that

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<v Speaker 2>speech had magically disappeared from the Internet for a period

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<v Speaker 2>until they started asking questions about it, at which point

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<v Speaker 2>it suddenly sort of surreptitiously popped back up again. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>the Prime Minister's office dismissed that disappearing speech as a

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<v Speaker 2>technical glitch. It's also hard not to see the coincidence here.

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<v Speaker 2>But I want to give the government some credit for

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<v Speaker 2>making the right noises and reviewing a lot of other

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<v Speaker 2>pieces of legislation around secrecy and privacy and so on,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think is helping. But at the moment, it

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<v Speaker 2>looks far more cosmetic than it does realistic or practical.

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<v Speaker 2>A few years ago, you might remember when the Australian

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<v Speaker 2>Federal Police rated two news organizations.

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<v Speaker 4>This was back in twenty nineteen.

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<v Speaker 2>The New York Times took a good, hard look at

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<v Speaker 2>Australia's culture and they declared that Australia may well be

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<v Speaker 2>the world's most secretive democracy. And that was not a

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<v Speaker 2>flippant throwaway line. Think that was a serious piece of journalism.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I've been looking hard at Australia's culture

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<v Speaker 2>of secrets.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, I think I have to agree.

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<v Speaker 2>We have all sorts of provisions on paper that support

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<v Speaker 2>openness and transparency, like whistleblower protections and freedom of information laws.

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<v Speaker 2>But anybody who works with whistleblowers or FOI applications knows

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<v Speaker 2>that they just don't work.

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<v Speaker 4>They are utterly dysfunctional.

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<v Speaker 2>And then since twenty nineteen, what we've seen are more

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<v Speaker 2>restrictive laws that have been passed. Not less, we've passed

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<v Speaker 2>more national security legislation since nine to eleven than any

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<v Speaker 2>other country on Earth, almost one hundred separate pieces of legislation.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't be upgrading our

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<v Speaker 2>national security laws to cope with the current environment. But

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<v Speaker 2>huge numbers of those laws intrude on our civil liberties,

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<v Speaker 2>in true, on our freedom of speech, intrude on press freedom,

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<v Speaker 2>intrude on transparency in go and I think overall, it's

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>actually shifted the balance of power in favor of government

0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.559
<v Speaker 2>away from us as individuals citizens. We need to be very,

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 2>very careful when that happens, because it turns us more

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.600
<v Speaker 2>towards authoritarianism than towards a level democracy that we like

0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:18.480
<v Speaker 2>to think of ourselves.

0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 1>As you mentioned David McBride, who has been sentenced and

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 1>is now in jail. We spoke to him just on

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.040
<v Speaker 1>the eve of his sentencing hearing.

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:29.080
<v Speaker 4>Whatever happens today.

0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 10>Put it this way, it'll be hard to choke back

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.680
<v Speaker 10>that years, because while it's not going to be completely

0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 10>over today, it is the end of a pretty long phase.

0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.440
<v Speaker 1>And you could hear the emotion in his voice and

0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 1>the toll that it's taken on him. Cases like this

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 1>are hardly an ad for whistle blowing, are they.

0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:49.400
<v Speaker 4>No.

0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.160
<v Speaker 2>No, they're not put yourself in the position of a

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 2>public servant who is sitting on some information about some

0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 2>wrongdoing that they're seeing in government, and on the one hand,

0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.400
<v Speaker 2>their list to the Prime Minister and the Attorney General's

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.640
<v Speaker 2>rhetoric around protecting whistleblowers. And on the other hand you

0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:11.120
<v Speaker 2>see the experiences of Richard and David. You see how

0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.280
<v Speaker 2>they've suffered financial ruin their careers, have been shot, at

0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.240
<v Speaker 2>least one of them is already in prison, They've suffered

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.360
<v Speaker 2>enormous personal stress.

0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 4>As a result of this.

0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.040
<v Speaker 2>The price that those guys have paid individually for doing

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.720
<v Speaker 2>what I think most of us would recognize as really

0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 2>heroic acts.

0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:33.120
<v Speaker 4>On behalf of all of us.

0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.640
<v Speaker 2>If you're a public seven sitting on information, what are

0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.800
<v Speaker 2>you going to do? You're hardly going to think I'm

0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.920
<v Speaker 2>going to go out there. Whistle Blowing does work in

0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 2>some places, but those two cases in particular, I think

0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.640
<v Speaker 2>are very very bad advertisements for whistleblowing.

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:52.680
<v Speaker 4>In this country.

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Peter, thanks so much for your time.

0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 4>It's fantastic to talk to Uston.

0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, state governments in Victoria and

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 1>Queensland have rejected the nuclear policy announced by Peter Dutton yesterday,

0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 1>which would see nuclear power plants built at seven sites

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.680
<v Speaker 1>around Australia, including two in Queensland and one in Victoria.

0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton, at a press conference yesterday announced the plan,

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 1>promising it would provide cheap energy to households, but refusing

0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 1>to say when he would reveal the cost of it all.

0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.520
<v Speaker 1>And Russian President Vladimir Putin has visited the capital of

0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.320
<v Speaker 1>North Korea, meeting with leader Kim Jong un, with the

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.680
<v Speaker 1>two expected to announce treaties strengthening ties between their two nations.

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 1>The US State Department says it believes the visit is

0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.760
<v Speaker 1>a sign of desperation on the part of the Russian president,

0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.680
<v Speaker 1>looking to strengthen his remaining alliances after the invasion of

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Ukraine led to sanction and severed other diplomatic ties. That's

0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.679
<v Speaker 1>all from the team at seven am for today. My

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.440
<v Speaker 1>name is Ashlin McGee. Thank you for your company. I'll

0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:09.520
<v Speaker 1>see you again tomorrow.