WEBVTT - The outdated trans study still doing damage

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. In

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<v Speaker 1>the nineteen seventies, eight children in Perth were sent to

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<v Speaker 1>a psychiatric hospital to be treated for being transgender. Their

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<v Speaker 1>experiences became the basis of a medical study, one that

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<v Speaker 1>claimed kids could be cured of their identity. Now, nearly

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<v Speaker 1>forty years after it was released, the same study is

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<v Speaker 1>being cited in arguments against trans healthcare and being used

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<v Speaker 1>to shape policy and law. Today, Walkley Award winning journalist

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<v Speaker 1>and founding editor of ABC Queer Monshafter on how a

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<v Speaker 1>forgotten experiment from another era is still influencing the cultural

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<v Speaker 1>war over trans healthcare. It's Sunday, January twenty five and

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<v Speaker 1>just a warning, this episode discusses suicidal ideation. Please take

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<v Speaker 1>care while listening. Thanks so much for speaking with me.

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<v Speaker 1>Can we start with Doctor Anya Ravine? Tell me who

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<v Speaker 1>she is and what kind of work she does.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she's a specialist in trans youth health and well being.

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<v Speaker 2>She's a research fellow at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute

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<v Speaker 2>in Melbourne. She's openly trans herself. Previously, she worked as

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<v Speaker 2>a genetic pathologist at the Children's Hospital at Westmead in Sydney,

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<v Speaker 2>which has an adolescent gender clinic, and from working there

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<v Speaker 2>she became aware of the fierce culture war about trans

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<v Speaker 2>youth healthcare, how particular studies have been picked up and

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<v Speaker 2>weaponized by the anti trans movement.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the papers I came across was an old

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<v Speaker 3>paper from thirty eight years ago published in Australia and

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<v Speaker 3>it's become prominent again.

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<v Speaker 2>One study in particular, from nineteen eighty seven was from

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<v Speaker 2>a time where being transition ender was seen as a

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<v Speaker 2>mental illness, compared to today where we see being trans

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<v Speaker 2>as part of a you know, the natural expression of

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<v Speaker 2>human diversity. But it hasn't always been viewed that way.

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<v Speaker 1>So can you tell me more about it that nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty seven study and how it was actually conducted.

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<v Speaker 2>The study I've been looking at was published in the

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<v Speaker 2>Medical Journal of Australia in nineteen eighty seven and it's

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<v Speaker 2>based on information that was gathered at a state funded

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<v Speaker 2>psychiatric hospital in Perth between nineteen seventy five and nineteen eighty.

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<v Speaker 3>They were referred to as gender disordered children. It's implicit

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<v Speaker 3>that they were expecting gender identity to return to what

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<v Speaker 3>was expected.

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<v Speaker 2>And the report which was written by WA's then Director

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<v Speaker 2>of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Services, doctor Robert Cosky, said,

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<v Speaker 2>the children being influenced by their parents.

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<v Speaker 3>It was decided that the way of dealing with this

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<v Speaker 3>was to separate the children from the parents.

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<v Speaker 2>So basically they were taken away from their parents. They

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<v Speaker 2>were living in hospital for this period. They could see

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<v Speaker 2>their parents for one day of a weekend and stay

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<v Speaker 2>home for one night. The reason for that is because

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Kosky had a theory that the parents were influencing

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<v Speaker 2>this behavior in the children, trying to fulfill their own

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<v Speaker 2>emotional needs through that child and were essentially encouraging what

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<v Speaker 2>they referred to as this cross gender behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>So the idea taken from this study was that children

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<v Speaker 1>could grow out of being transgender, where they could be

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<v Speaker 1>canceled out of these feelings of gender dysphoria. Is that right?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>It said that the treatment was basically successful in treating

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<v Speaker 2>this cross gender behavior. Back then, the children were described

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<v Speaker 2>as gender disordered and it was basically suggesting that psychotherapy

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<v Speaker 2>could be used to treat this behavior. These kids were

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<v Speaker 2>hospitalized because they were displaying what the report describes as

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<v Speaker 2>cross gender behavior, and it's clear that the intention was

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<v Speaker 2>to stop that, and we now know that such practices

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<v Speaker 2>are very dangerous, they don't work, and they cause long

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<v Speaker 2>term psychological harm.

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<v Speaker 1>And despite that, as you say, the study is currently

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<v Speaker 1>being cited in the debate on trans healthcare. So tell

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<v Speaker 1>me more about how it's being brought up.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's being used in US courts, it's being used

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<v Speaker 2>in lobbying medical bodies and governments in current debates about

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<v Speaker 2>gender affirming care. It's being cited by opponents of gender

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<v Speaker 2>affirming care. So even though it's decades old and from

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<v Speaker 2>a time we're views on being trans were much different

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<v Speaker 2>than they are today, there are quite a few examples

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<v Speaker 2>where this particular study is being cited. There's a US

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<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court case about the US state of Tennessee banning

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<v Speaker 2>puberty blockers and hormone treatment for the treatment of gender

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<v Speaker 2>dysphoria in minors. It's being cited there.

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<v Speaker 5>US Supreme Court upheld a Tennessee law banning medical treatments

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<v Speaker 5>for transgender miners, landmark ruling with implications across the country.

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<v Speaker 5>It means transition care will be mostly legal in blue

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<v Speaker 5>states and mostly illegal in red states.

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<v Speaker 2>There was evidence submitted to the Bulgarian Supreme Court saying

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<v Speaker 2>that gender nonconformity isn't something a person is born with,

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<v Speaker 2>but is due to psychological influences. It's cited there. In Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>the National Association of Practicing Psychiatrists has written a clinical

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<v Speaker 2>guide on how doctors should care for gender diverse youth

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<v Speaker 2>and it also cites the paper again referring to psychological,

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<v Speaker 2>family or social influences as opposed to it again it

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<v Speaker 2>just being a natural part of human diversity.

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<v Speaker 6>In the National Association of Practicing Psychiatrists, we've put out

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<v Speaker 6>a guide that says people, particularly the doctors, need to

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<v Speaker 6>look into this much much more closely and identify what

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<v Speaker 6>other things are behind the presentation of the child. Now,

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<v Speaker 6>sometimes that'll mean that the child.

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<v Speaker 2>Back in twenty nineteen in Australia, professor John Whitehall, who's

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<v Speaker 2>a professor of pediatric and child health from the Western

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<v Speaker 2>Sydney UNI, he referred to the paper in a letter

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<v Speaker 2>to the then Health Minister Greek Hunt, requesting a parliamentary

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<v Speaker 2>inquiry into gender affirming care. So this is really being

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<v Speaker 2>used in present day setting.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's being cited both abroad and here in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we know whether it's affecting practice or not.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have direct evidence of that, but according to

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<v Speaker 2>Anya and researchers I've spoken to, it is having an impact.

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<v Speaker 2>It's influencing policies and laws that affect the lives of

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<v Speaker 2>trans kids today because it's being used as evidence for

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<v Speaker 2>opponents of gender affirming care.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, what happened to the children from the study? Mine,

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<v Speaker 1>You've been looking into the Costky study, which is widely

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<v Speaker 1>cited when people are arguing their and gender affirming care

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<v Speaker 1>for young people, and you've actually spoken with one of

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<v Speaker 1>the people who was part of this study as a child,

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<v Speaker 1>So what can you tell me about them?

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<v Speaker 2>So Jane believes she was one of these eight children

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<v Speaker 2>who referred to in the Coski report. The actual names

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<v Speaker 2>of the kids who were part of this treatment program

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<v Speaker 2>aren't accessible because of privacy laws, but Jane's hospital admission

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<v Speaker 2>details her medical records that she accessed through FOI aligned

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<v Speaker 2>closely with one of the children whose case study five,

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<v Speaker 2>and in the Coski report itself it has details like

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<v Speaker 2>ten years old male wants to be a girl, cross dresses,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 7>Mum caught me with some ghost clothing on and being

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<v Speaker 7>sort of mid seventies. Not knowing what else to do,

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<v Speaker 7>she went and spoke to our local family doctor.

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<v Speaker 2>The doctor recommended this psychological assessment of Jane, and because

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, gender nonconformity was viewed as something that

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<v Speaker 2>was wrong, she was admitted to this treatment program at

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<v Speaker 2>Stubbs Terrorist Children's Psychiatric Hospital in nineteen seventy five and

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<v Speaker 2>she was there for nearly six months. She was closely

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<v Speaker 2>monitored during her time there.

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<v Speaker 7>I was subjected to random checks with my clothing just

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<v Speaker 7>to make sure I wasn't wearing any sort of fear

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<v Speaker 7>whale underclothes. Had to sort of go to the toilet

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<v Speaker 7>if I was going to keep before, I have the

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<v Speaker 7>door open so they could check that I wasn't just

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<v Speaker 7>sitting down to pee, that I actually stood like a

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<v Speaker 7>boy in urinated.

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<v Speaker 2>If she did spend time with a group of girls

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<v Speaker 2>while she was at the center, she'd be separated and

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<v Speaker 2>would have to go and play with a group of boys.

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<v Speaker 2>She wasn't allowed to play with dolls that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So basically she clued on to the fact that if

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't behave like a girl, she was treated more

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<v Speaker 2>favorably and had a better chance of getting out of

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<v Speaker 2>this program, so she suppressed her sense of gender so

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<v Speaker 2>she could get out, and she was able to leave

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<v Speaker 2>after nearly six months. She says that her mother was

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<v Speaker 2>told at the beginning of this program she'd only be

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<v Speaker 2>in there for two weeks, and yet was in there

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<v Speaker 2>for nearly six months.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened to Jane eventually? Did she go on to

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<v Speaker 1>live a life? What kind of impact did that experience

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<v Speaker 1>have on her mom?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So when she got out of there, she suppressed

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<v Speaker 2>her gender.

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<v Speaker 7>When I came out, I had suppressed my sense agenda

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<v Speaker 7>so far down because I was worried that I would

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<v Speaker 7>be sent back to the psych hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>It took her twenty two years to come out as transgender.

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<v Speaker 2>Before she affirmed her gender. She actually got married to

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<v Speaker 2>a wonderful woman called Deb and had kids and things

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<v Speaker 2>were going all right, but Deb, her partner, noticed signs

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<v Speaker 2>of Jane unraveling. She knew that something was going on there.

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<v Speaker 2>Jane was quite depressed, drinking a lot, and basically said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what is going on here?

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<v Speaker 4>I said, what's going on? And she kind of told me,

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<v Speaker 4>and then she told me what happened that Stubbs terrorist.

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<v Speaker 4>So I said, why don't you just like move out

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<v Speaker 4>for a bit and decide who you want to be

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<v Speaker 4>or who you need to be, and then we'll see

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<v Speaker 4>what happens from there.

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<v Speaker 2>So they did separate for a while. Jane says it

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<v Speaker 2>got to the point where she felt she had two options.

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<v Speaker 2>One was suicide and the other was transitioning.

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<v Speaker 7>After that, I made the decision to transition. I felt

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<v Speaker 7>a lot lighter in myself that I would prod finally

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<v Speaker 7>see myself being who I always believe myself to be.

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<v Speaker 1>So we mentioned that the basis of the report is

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<v Speaker 1>that with counseling, kids might decide not to transition, But

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<v Speaker 1>as you just said, that clearly isn't the case for Jane,

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<v Speaker 1>and wasn't the case for Jane. It took decades for

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<v Speaker 1>her to be able to live as she really wants

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<v Speaker 1>to live and is living. So what was it like

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<v Speaker 1>for Jane to realize that she's been used as a

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<v Speaker 1>case study to pedal these really damaging myths.

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<v Speaker 2>She was shocked. She had no idea that this medical

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<v Speaker 2>report existed. She had no idea it was being used

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<v Speaker 2>in arguments today about gender affirming care and young people.

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<v Speaker 2>She says she never consented to being part of a

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<v Speaker 2>research report, so, you know, there are a whole lot

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<v Speaker 2>of ethical issues here. She's very aware of the debate

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<v Speaker 2>that is going on today and she just felt it

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<v Speaker 2>was so important to set the record straight because she

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want this harm to continue with young transgender diverse

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<v Speaker 2>people today.

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<v Speaker 1>How common is it that out data studies like this

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<v Speaker 1>one are used without proper scrutiny to push a line

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<v Speaker 1>in debates around transgender healthcare.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm told by doctor Anyrravin, the researcher that it is

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<v Speaker 2>quite common. The only study that we've interrogated is nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty seven study. But you know, trans healthcare, it's super

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<v Speaker 2>complex and reviews have shown that there needs to be

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<v Speaker 2>more research in this space even now. But the current

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<v Speaker 2>evidence base and expert consensus internationally recommends the gender affirming model,

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<v Speaker 2>so supporting a trans or gender diverse young person to

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<v Speaker 2>live as the gender that they identify with. Currently, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Queensland has put a pause on gender affirming care for

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<v Speaker 2>new trans and gender diverse patients under the age of eighteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and in response to this, the federal government is conducting

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<v Speaker 2>a national review of trans healthcare guidelines for young people

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<v Speaker 2>and the aim of that is to develop new national standards.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there was a recent review in New South

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<v Speaker 2>Wales based on the gender program at the Westmea Children's Hospital,

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<v Speaker 2>and that found that puberty suppression treatments are safe, but

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<v Speaker 2>it also called for more long term research.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, min what can you tell us about what

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<v Speaker 1>life is like for Jane now?

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<v Speaker 2>She's really happy. She and Deb got back together. They're

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<v Speaker 2>still together now after nearly forty years. They got remarried

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty nineteen and her Deb tells the story of

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<v Speaker 2>how it was beautiful because Jane got to be the

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<v Speaker 2>bride as well, and it was a really special time

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<v Speaker 2>for them.

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<v Speaker 4>Jane's out of shell was different, but intrinsically she was

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<v Speaker 4>still the same person and it was really nice for

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<v Speaker 4>her to be out of your bride.

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<v Speaker 7>I absolutely feel good in my skin now. I know

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<v Speaker 7>who I am. I'm Jane.

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<v Speaker 3>That is it.

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<v Speaker 7>If you don't like me, you don't like me. If

0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 7>you do like me, you do like me. But this

0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 7>is who I am.

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:39.120
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 2>They've got three kids, they've got grandkids, they live a

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:46.000
<v Speaker 2>happy life. Prior to discovering the existence of this report,

0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.680
<v Speaker 2>she didn't want to think about her time at Stubbs

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Terrace because it was triggering. You know, there was a

0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of you know, scars and hurt there from that time.

0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.960
<v Speaker 2>But given that this debate is raging today, it was

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 2>so important for her to set the records, so that's

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:05.920
<v Speaker 2>why she's revisited this. Currently, conversion practices are illegal in

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.240
<v Speaker 2>most parts of the country. They were banned in Victoria, Queensland,

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.520
<v Speaker 2>the Act, South Australia and New South Wales, but they

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.599
<v Speaker 2>are still legal in WA. The government they're committed to

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 2>change back in twenty twenty two, but it hasn't happened

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.200
<v Speaker 2>yet and advocates are demanding that they introduced that legislation now.

0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 2>So that's also part of the reason why Jane has

0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:27.520
<v Speaker 2>told her story.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Mon, thank you for your reporting on this and

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<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for coming on the show.

0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh My pleasure, Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>You can read Mon's full report on the ABC website

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<v Speaker 1>and watch your TV story for seven point thirty on

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<v Speaker 1>IV seven Am is a daily show from Solstice Media.

0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 1>It's made by Atticus Basto, Aril Richards, Chris Danngate, Daniel James,

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<v Speaker 1>Crystal Color, Nicole Johnston, Sarah mcveee, Travis Evans and Zaltenfetja.

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<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones is on the comment and she'll be back

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<v Speaker 1>been seven am. Thanks for listening.