1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation. Hello, welcome to the Real 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: Story with Joe Hildebrand. That is me. I don't know 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: why I keep saying that. Anyway, another crack and show 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: for you coming up. We're going to get into the 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: coalition tearing itself apart, and then the Liberal Party within 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: the coalition also tearing itself apart. And yes, an extra bonus, 8 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: the Labor Party is also tearing itself apart. It's only 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: just one the biggest election result in Australian history, no asterisk. 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: It is just absolutely massive, something like ninety something seats, 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: twice the number of the coalition, almost two thirds of 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: the parliament and they're already destroying each other. Plus how 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: do you fire a police commissioner or how do you 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: not fire a police commissioner? We're going to have a 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: special in depth discussion with the Daily Telegraphs josh Hanrahan, 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: who has gone right inside the politics to find out 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: exactly what is going on here. It's extraordinary stuff. Don't 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: go anywhere. So first up, let's get into what is 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: happening with the Liberal National Party coalition. Well, a couple 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: of things that aren't happening. One is Angus Taylor is 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: not becoming the Liberal Party leader. Matt Canavan is not 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: becoming the National Party leader, and just Center Price isn't 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: even running for the leader or the deputy leader, despite 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: having abandoned the National Party for the Liberal Party, even 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: though she was elected for the Country Liberal Party, but 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: that is actually pretty much the National Party and so 27 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: even though she was technically Country Liberal Party, she sat 28 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: in the National Party room, but she now left the 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: National Party room to join the Liberal Party room. Got 30 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: that everyone up to speed? All right? Now? Matt Canavan, 31 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: who was extremely upset about that, decided right, screw this. 32 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: The Nats have done well, but they've been punished and 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party needs to learn its lessons. I'm going 34 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: to take over the NATS and we're going to split 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: from the Libs and they can bite me, basically. And 36 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: he ran in a leadership spill against the current Nationals leader, 37 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: David little Proud, and we don't know exactly how many 38 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: votes he got because these things are often often kept 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: quite secret. The Nats are a very shy lot. But 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: Little Proud is still the leader and that tells you 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: everything you need to know. Matt Canavan, love the bloke 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: made of mind. But the Nats are a very conservative, 43 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: small Sea conservative bunch and they you know, these young 44 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: firebrands like Canavan, and Canavan is very much a student, 45 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: a disciple of Barnaby Joyce and Barnaby Joyce. As we know, 46 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: his numbers are a bit on the way and he 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: was always a pretty controversial figure in the NATS party room, 48 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: even at his peak. But so Canavan did not have 49 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: the numbers. But I think he would have known he 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: didn't have the numbers. He just wanted, would have wanted 51 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: to be making his point and he can go back 52 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 1: to the back bench where he can say whatever he 53 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: wants in a very entertaining and direct way. Meanwhile, in 54 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party you've got Susan Lay, the deputy leader, 55 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: has just won the leadership ballot against Angus Taylor, the 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: Shadow Treasurer. Susan Lay was probably not to blame that 57 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: much for the appalling election campaign that Peter Dutton and 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: the Liberals had, largely because she wasn't really in that campaign. 59 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: She kept a pretty low profile. I thought a lot 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: of people said that it used to seem to be 61 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: just Peter Dutton and nothing but Peter Dutton. The exception 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: to that rule was Angus Taylor, who spectacularly failed to 63 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: develop a coherent economic and tax policy that the public 64 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: could endorse at the election, And now he's decided that, 65 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: in fact, far from being the problem, he was the solution. 66 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: Now the problem is what does the Liberal Party do 67 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: from here? Yes, Susan Lay has won, but already people 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: are saying no, there's going to be blood leting as 69 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: a result of this. I thought the blood letting was 70 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: meant to be why you then had the leadership ballot 71 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: that put the bloodletting to bed. But anyway, people say no, 72 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: the knives are going to come out. And even if 73 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: Susan Lay holds on for the next three years, they 74 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: can't actually win the next election anyway. It is mathematically impossible. 75 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: Barring some kind of miracle, it is mathematically impossible for 76 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: the coalition, which has less than half the seats that 77 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: Labor does, just forty something compared to Labour's ninety something. 78 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: There's no way they can win government from there. So 79 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: it's basically just keeping the seat warm, trying to pick 80 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: up some more seats at the next election in twenty 81 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: twenty eight. But what happens in twenty twenty eight, Well, 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 1: a certain guy called Josh Friedenberg is going to come 83 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: back against Monique Ryean. And yes, you heard everything here. 84 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: First you heard that Donald Trump was going to win 85 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: the US presidential election. You heard that Anthony Aberezi was 86 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: going to win his majority. Josh Friedenberg bet London to 87 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: a brick. He will come back in cou Yong in 88 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: three years time. Menete Ryan only just won it this 89 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: time against the Libs, and that was with Peter Dutton 90 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: as leader. Imagine how she's going to go against the 91 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 1: Libs when they have a woman as leader like Susan 92 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: Lay as a leader, and with Josh Freedenberg as an opponent. 93 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: That is going to be the mother of all rematches. 94 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: Josh Fredenberg would almost certainly win in that circumstance, and 95 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: if he wins, he will almost certainly be offered the 96 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: Liberal leadership on a platter. In fact, there's an automatic 97 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: spill after any election that either of the major parties 98 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: doesn't win, and so of course he would. He would 99 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: almost certainly win that. And he's probably the only person 100 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: who can hold both the left and the right of 101 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party together. So congratulations to Susan lay for 102 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: winning the Liberal leadership. We'll hopefully have a chat to 103 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: her at some point, but best case scenario, she gets 104 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: the job for about three years and then anyway, we 105 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: thank you for your service. Now, the other thing that 106 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly energized about which puts non political animals to sleep. 107 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: So if you are well, if you're a non political animal, 108 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: you're not listening to this podcast. So let's get into 109 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: exactly why everyone is up in arms. Because the new 110 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: Labor Ministry, this is the Cabinet plus the outer ministry, 111 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: thirty MPs all up. The new Labor Ministry doesn't include 112 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: two figures who were in the last one, so a 113 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: out of thirty people, two people are out of the 114 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 1: cabinet and everyone is losing their shit over it. Parties 115 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: going up in arms. Paul Keating has put out a 116 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: statement slamming Anthony Albanesi for not doing anything, even though 117 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: Anthony Alberanzi didn't actually do anything. We'll get to that 118 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: very shortly. And this is of course the removal of 119 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: Ed Husick, who is the first Muslim MP in Australia, 120 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: the first MP to swear on a Quran instead of 121 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: a Bible or taken oath of affirmation, and the first 122 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: Muslim member of cabinet, the first Muslim minister, and Mark Dreyfus, 123 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: who is the most senior Jewish MP. There's also Josh 124 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: Burns and McNamara, and the most senior Jewish minister. He 125 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: has both he's been removed from cabinet. So I guess 126 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: this is one way to solve the Middle East peace crisis. 127 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: You take the only two in your cabinet and the 128 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: only Muslim in your cabinet, say right, both of you out. 129 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: But that's not quite why it happened, and not quite 130 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: how it happened either. Now, the way that the cabinet 131 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: is chosen, the way the ministry is chosen, or indeed 132 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: the shadow front bench is chosen in the Labor Party, 133 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: he's different to the way as done in the Liberal Party, 134 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: where it's the leader's call. In the Labor Party, the 135 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: makeup of the cabinet and the ministry is and the 136 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: cabinet being the senior ministers and the full ministry being 137 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: the senior ministers plus the junior ministers in the outer 138 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: ministry who did not sit in cabinet. And so cabinet's 139 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: about twenty something three and there's about seven outer ministers 140 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: who are not in it anyway. So instead of the 141 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: leader actually choosing who's in and who's out, happens in 142 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: other parties and has happened once in the Labor Party 143 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: with fairly disastrous results, it's the factions who determine it. 144 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: And basically the people who are in the cabinet have 145 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: to reflect the basic power and makeup of the caucus 146 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: in terms of the factional makeup and also in terms 147 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: of the breakdown state by state. So if New South 148 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: Wales suddenly doesn't do quite so well as Victoria, then 149 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: Victoria might get an extra minister in the cabinet and 150 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: New South Wales might lose one. And if the right 151 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: faction doesn't do quite as well as compared to the 152 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: left faction, then the left faction might get one extra 153 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: minister and the cabinet and the right faction would lose one. 154 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: And that is exactly what has happened. So, because Victoria 155 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: did better than anyone expected, it turned out that it 156 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: got a whole bunch more MPs, and it turned out 157 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: that they were weighted in favor of both the Left 158 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: and in favor of Victoria. Generally. So the Victorian right 159 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: faction said, hey, we deserve an extra spot and New 160 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: South Wales you're going to have to lose one. So 161 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: suddenly the makeup of and the left it well as well. 162 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: So suddenly the Left said, hang on, we need an 163 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: extra spot and New South Wales you're going to have 164 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: to lose one. So New South Wales had to lose 165 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: both a right spot and a spot generally, if that 166 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: makes sense. So basically, each of the main factions had 167 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: to put forward a list of fifteen names each as 168 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: to who they wanted to be in the ministry, and 169 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: then the PM gets to assign each of those people 170 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: their roles. So again the PM still has a huge 171 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: amount of power because you know, someone from the New 172 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: South Wales, someone from the Right faction can say here's 173 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: our list, and the PM, if he wanted to, could 174 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: make the most junior person on the list the Treasurer, 175 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: and the most senior person on the list, you know, 176 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: the Minister for Social Cohesion, the Minister for Skills. It's 177 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: always a good one. Andrew Giles, by the way, now 178 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: in the outer ministry. But it is the factions who 179 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: decide whether people are in or out. All this has 180 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: been blamed on a power grab by Richard Miles. But 181 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: the New South Wales Right and indeed the right faction 182 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: the National Right, did not have ed Hughes Sick's name 183 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: on their list and did not need to have Mark 184 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: Draves's name on their list. And people said, well, you know, 185 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: the PM should have been asked to intervene and override 186 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: the factional bosses. But who would ask the PM to 187 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: override the factional bosses? With the factional bosses asked the 188 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: PM to override them, and why would they do that? 189 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: Why would the people who are in charge of the 190 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: factional system which gives them all their power hence the 191 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: term power brokers then say hey, PM, we'd like you 192 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: to override our power. So that was never actually going 193 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: to happen, and the uncomfortable truth remains. And I really 194 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: like Edi Husick, I reckon he's a massive talent. The 195 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: uncomfortable truth remains his own faction didn't put him on 196 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: the list, and so there I think is a lot 197 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: of sort of slight sort of name calling, finger pointing 198 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: going on, where in fact it's not necessarily the Victorian 199 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: Right's fault that Ed Husick isn't in the ministry Mark Drivers, Yeah, 200 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: blame that on the Victorian Right. But the Victoria Right 201 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: isn't even the Victorian Right because the Victorian Right is 202 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: actually split. And so the Victorian Right, as it turns out, 203 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: pretty much just has one senior minister in the cabinet. 204 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: Or Richard Miles has only one member of his sub 205 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: faction in the cabinet as compared to Clara O'Neil, who 206 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: is from an Australian Workers' Union aligned faction. So they've 207 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: just got the two in the cabinet. The New South 208 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: Wales Right has still actually got four. So it's got 209 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: Jason Clair Education Minister, Chris Bowen climate Change Minister. It's 210 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: got Tony Burke who's the Minister for Home Affairs and 211 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: has just made his portfolio even bigger. And it's got 212 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: Michelle Rowland who was the new Attorney General in place 213 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: of Mark Dreyfer. So the New South Wales Right, ladies 214 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, still always wins. Well. The next bigyn I 215 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about has been an incredible 216 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: alignment of the planets in which the top cops, the 217 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: police commissioners of both New South Wales and Victoria just 218 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: over the last couple of months have both been axed, 219 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: sorry I meant resigned of their own free will for 220 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: no apparent reason by the governments that they were supposed 221 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: to serve. And it's just been an incredible this far 222 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: and one that you just you honestly, you couldn't read 223 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: about it. Well, you could actually read about it because 224 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: my next guest has written about it and he is 225 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: on the inside of how all these decisions are made 226 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: and has basically written the book on the incredible and 227 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: colorful downfall of the new South Wales Police Commissioner Karen Webb, 228 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: and he joins me right here in the studio right now, 229 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: josh Hanrahan from the Daily Telegraph. Welcome to the real story. 230 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: How are you mate? 231 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: So I'm good. 232 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me again, mate, It's always a pleasure. 233 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: I think you're officially part of the family now, which 234 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: means that we expect you to do it for free. 235 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: So that's love as you have been. But let's go 236 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: through this story. And this I know we've got listeners 237 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: all around the country, but this is a story that 238 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: is obviously takes place in the one of the biggest 239 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: police forces in the world. The New South Wales Police Force, 240 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: the biggest state in Australia, and we had a first 241 00:13:54,679 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: female police commissioner and suddenly, somehow every thing just goes 242 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: off the rails, to the point where over the last 243 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: week or so she has I think the polite term 244 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: has fallen on her sword, or has realized that she 245 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: no longer can sort of do the job effectively or whatever. 246 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: Tell us just a little bit about the three years 247 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: of Karen Webb's stint at the top job, how she 248 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: got it and what went. 249 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: Wrong you mentioned before the planet's aligning. 250 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: That's probably the perfect analogy to go right back to 251 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 3: the start with this Joe, because in twenty twenty one, 252 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: Gladys Berry Jiggli in the New Solales premiere suddenly resigned, 253 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: as we all know, over dramas with Ikak and our 254 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: relationship with Daryl Maguire. 255 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,359 Speaker 2: And that came at a time. 256 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: For policing where the former police Commissioner, Mimick Fuller had 257 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 3: told Gladys that he was going to step down. He'd 258 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 3: served his five years and he'd gone through COVID. 259 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: He was very popular, widely respected in the force, had 260 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: a good relationship with government and media, figures. This was 261 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: a guy who sort of was the sort of gold 262 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: standard of how to be a good police. 263 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 3: Commission exactly, so much so that the government had begged 264 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 3: him to stay on, that's how good he was. They 265 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: wanted him to do another five years, but he said no, 266 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: I'm done, I'm out. And so the Liberal state government 267 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: then began looking for their next police commissioner and they 268 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 3: were set to choose a man called Mick Willing, who 269 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 3: was a deputy commissioner in UAI of Wales at the time. 270 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 3: But just a few weeks before he was going to 271 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 3: be announced, Gladys suddenly was forced out and that through 272 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 3: the whole show of who was going to be the 273 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 3: next top cop in you said Wales out the window 274 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: and the incoming Premier, Dominic Perete wanted to reinterview everybody 275 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 3: and choose his own candidate. And one of the things 276 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: that he was very focused on, if you speak to 277 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: those who are close to him, is the fact that 278 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: he had we perceived himself to have a problem with 279 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: female voters potentially as he count to an election, and 280 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: so what he wanted to do was to try and 281 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 3: I guess knock that on its head and so what 282 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 3: he did was choose Karen web as the state's first 283 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 3: female top cop, and that he hopes would show the 284 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: voters that he had no issue with women whatsoever. 285 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: It just goes to show how incredibly political this role is, 286 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: isn't it. And enormously it can be someone who's come 287 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: up through the ranks. That's often, as in the case 288 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: of Victoria, someone that've had to pull in from an 289 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: overseas police force. We've had to do this yere when 290 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: we had corruption issues, yes, with Peter Ryan. But it 291 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: is just such an incredibly sensitive and I suppose you know, 292 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: it's a job that's sort of always on a trip wire, 293 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: isn't it. It's one of those things where something small 294 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: can suddenly set off a chain reaction where everything goes wrong. 295 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: But so I'm not going to interrupt you anymore so 296 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: Dominic Peritet, who I love very much, but he seems 297 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: to have made a poor call on this one. Out 298 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: he said, I think Karen Webb interviewed really well. Yeah, 299 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: he said a. 300 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 3: Lot of things afterwards when it became quite apparent to 301 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: a lot of people that hang on, you know, this 302 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 3: is an interesting choice. Karen Webb wasn't very well known. 303 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: She was Deputy commissioner, the second highest rank in the force. 304 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 3: Not long before that she'd been she'd risen up to 305 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 3: assistant commissioner. But her appointment to everybody by surprise, but 306 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: people were willing to give her a chance. That probably 307 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: began to change a little bit after a few media 308 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 3: performances where people went, hang on a second, this woman 309 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: isn't coming across as you know a commissioner should in 310 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 3: most people's eyes, which is you know, they talk about 311 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 3: in New South Wales police being the biggest gang in 312 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 3: Australia because you know, it's the biggest police force. 313 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: Something like fifteen thousand or more. How many more last 314 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: counts seventeen. I think it should be and I think 315 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: it's like the third or fourth biggest police force in 316 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: the world. 317 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it should be over twenty. But that's right. 318 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: It's below straight story but part of the reason perhaps 319 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: why she went. But anyway, so she's so one of 320 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: the most infamous media performances just after this tasering incident 321 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: where a police officer tasered a very olderly woman at 322 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 1: a nursing home, and Karen website among other things that 323 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: she took a while to sort of publicly respond to 324 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: it when there was a lot of sort of outrage 325 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: about it, and then she said that she hadn't seen 326 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: the footage of it. And then when there was I 327 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: think this was the same issue, when there was sort 328 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: of an outpouring of and then when people had a 329 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: crack at a anger, she said, well, hate's going to 330 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: hate Taylor Swift. 331 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that that was another instance. 332 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 3: So the tasering incident came in May twenty twenty three, 333 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 3: and that's about, you know, a bit over a year 334 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 3: into her term as top cop, and that was the 335 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 3: first time that people really were saying, hang on a second, 336 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 3: this woman really is not fit for this job. There'd 337 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 3: been a bit of a build up of other issues 338 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: and poor media performances and questionable decisions on things, and 339 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 3: people were saying that's a bit unusual, but you know whatever, 340 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 3: and a couple of the big shock jocks in town 341 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 3: kind of tiptoed around it and were willing to support 342 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: her in the time, and the government was trying to 343 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 3: support her. And anyway, when the Kuma taser incident happened, 344 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 3: as you said, ninety five year old woman Clare Noland 345 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 3: fatally tasered. 346 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: By a police officer. 347 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 3: That was the first thing that really blew up, and 348 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 3: then you went forward and there was a few other instance. 349 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 3: The next notable one, as you said before, was the 350 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 3: alleged double murder by Serving as well as Bolamark Condon 351 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 3: of two men, Luke Davies and Jesse Baird. And there 352 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: was a couple of instants there that really fired people 353 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 3: at the first one was that a few days after 354 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 3: Bolamark Conen was was arrested and charged, they still haven't 355 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: found the bodies of those two men. And they eventually 356 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: found them a in a paddick and on a farm 357 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 3: down south a few hours out of Sydney, and a 358 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: press comments afterward, Karen Webb she just she misspoke and 359 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 3: she said, I I'm grateful to the assistance of this 360 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: man who's allegedly killed two people. And when she was 361 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 3: criticized on that, she said, oh, you know, well, haters 362 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: are going to hate Taylor Swift was in the country 363 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 3: at the time. 364 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: She was trying to be punny. It really just blew 365 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: things up to another level. 366 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: There's been so she's not a natural media performer. I 367 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: think we can establish she's. 368 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 2: A horrible media perform but people would say, well, that's okay. 369 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: She didn't cops a performing clown. What you doing inside 370 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: the force? 371 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 3: Yes, But then on the other hand, people would say, well, 372 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 3: hang on, sure, she may not have joined the cops, 373 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: you know, in the eighties to be on TV and 374 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 3: on radio, but she put her hand up to be 375 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 3: police squisher. That job comes with media performances, and she 376 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: should be better. And she is really impacting the morale 377 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 3: of the police force and people's opinions when they see 378 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: her up there representing the entiety of the new Solo's 379 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 3: police force. 380 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: And of course, in an effort to then improve her 381 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: media performance, she goes through this kind of like almost 382 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: sort of hurricane like turnstyle of media advisors. She had 383 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: Liz Degan, who's a former colleague of ours, very well respected. 384 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: I know her very well. She's amazing journals with a 385 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: very senior journal former deputy of the Sunday Telegraph. She 386 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: seems to have been made a sort of sacrificial land 387 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: for a couple of these media missteps. She then goes 388 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: to bring in another former colleague of ours, Steve Jackson, 389 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: who has since gone to Channel seven on the Spotlight program, 390 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: and worked on the Bruce Lehman story quite infamously, who 391 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: is an incredibly good journo, but a journo who you know, 392 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: very much of the old school, almost sort of Fleet 393 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: Street model, where you know, he'll do anything to get 394 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: that yarn. He produces amazing gold, but you wouldn't have 395 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: thought he was the kind of he's not exactly the 396 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,959 Speaker 1: sort of blue blooded pillar of society, gentleman's club, you know, 397 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 1: clean skin, who you would want to put as the 398 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: head of media in a police force. And suddenly, of course, 399 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: with all of the bad Lucke and the controversy that 400 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: had blown up around the Bruce Lehman thing, he gets 401 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: appointed and suddenly leaks just start like floodgates opening. Leaks 402 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: just start pouring out about him and his reputation and 403 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: stuff he's done or whatever. And suddenly the bid to 404 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: solve her media problem becomes a media problem in itself. 405 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 3: So a bit of that, yeah, yeah, if her media 406 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: performance wasn't you know, diabolical, or her choice of media 407 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: advisors and the revolving door of media advisors really became 408 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: almost a bigger issue for her. I think in the end, 409 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 3: she ended up during her tenure paying out media advisers 410 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: more than seven hundred thousand dollars of taxpayers running out 411 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 3: that number. I have double check that, but it was 412 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 3: a lot. It was so much money to essentially get 413 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 3: them out and bring a new one in, and people 414 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 3: eventually were like, well, hang on a second, there's a 415 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: common denominator here, and it's not your media advisors that 416 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 3: are that are standing up in front of the cameras 417 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 3: and you know, causing a lot of the dramas this 418 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 3: at the same time as we focused externally on media 419 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 3: issues media blunders, because that's really what a lot of 420 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 3: the headlines that were in the paper were all about. 421 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 3: Internally in the force, there was just a rapidly declining 422 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 3: morale and real questioning of her policing focuses, if you 423 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 3: know what I mean. So that became a massive issue 424 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 3: as well. 425 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: And you mentioned that there's a massive shortfall in what 426 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: the numbers of the police force should be and indeed 427 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: what they are on paper compared to what they are 428 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: in day to day life when you're taking things like 429 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: sickle other types of leave. So you've got a shortfall 430 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: of the number of officers that are actually on the 431 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: books as compared to where you want to be. Then 432 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: you've got another shortfall of number of officers who are 433 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: on the books compared to actually turning up to work 434 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: each day. And this is then becoming a bit of 435 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: a death spiral, isn't it, Because officers then who are 436 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: there are then working harder to cover for the shortfall. 437 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: That means they get burned out. That means they're more 438 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: likely to quit. That means the numbers go down. And 439 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: so she's presiding over this kind of decline which hopefully 440 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: might be turned around by some new measures this year. 441 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: But there's a massive shortfall officers, so you've got the 442 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: extra optics that is going haywire. The police commissioner doesn't 443 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: seem to be respected. That reduces police mirale because obviously 444 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: if your commissioner isn't respected by the public, you are 445 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: less likely to be respected by the public. And then 446 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: you've got a drop, perhaps not coincidentally, a drop in 447 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: the number of people who are being police and who 448 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: want to be police. 449 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was snowballing everywhere for you know, internally 450 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 3: and externally it was not getting good. And I think 451 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 3: probably the first time that the people really saying, you know, 452 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: she should go was probably around those comments around Boulamar 453 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 3: Condon the Kouma taser incident, people were like, hang on, 454 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 3: we really need to get this ship back on track. 455 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 3: And then probably by the time that the comments around 456 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 3: the Bolermarth think people saying, Okay, well this isn't going 457 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 3: to get any better. We know that by now, let's 458 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 3: let's call it and move on. Stay's first female top cop. 459 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 3: A lot of people thought, well, you know, no government's 460 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 3: going to go out and acts the first female top cop. 461 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: And anyway, last week Karen web was revealed she was 462 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 3: hoping to keep it secret for another few days and 463 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 3: announce it on this Sunday on May eighteen. Was her 464 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 3: plan to announce that she was going to be standing 465 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: down in September, but as always, the Daily Telegraph first 466 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 3: and yeah, we run. 467 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: It, and so how do you? And this is what 468 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: I really wanted to get to. You've got the optics 469 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: of not wanting to sack the state's first female police commissioner, 470 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: probably the optics of just not wanting to sack a 471 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: police commissioner at all because the role is supposed to 472 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: be at arm's length from government. And also, I suppose 473 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: you don't want, you know, getting rid of anyone in 474 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: government gives the impression of destabilization or self evidently means 475 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: everyone's not doing the best job where they should be. 476 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: How do you get rid of a police comp I 477 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: mean you basically sort of have to then lean on 478 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: them to actually flall on their sword or resign or 479 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: do you think she did just decide? You know what's 480 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: grew with this, I'm not getting the support I need. 481 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: I am going to quit. Screw you guys, I'm going home. 482 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: How does that situation resolve itself? 483 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see your first point that the appointment of 484 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 3: Karen Webb came at such an interesting time, as I 485 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 3: said before, because it came not only the changeover of 486 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: premiers from Gladysburg's Gi Glenn to Dominic Perryite that was 487 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: very late in the term for that Liberal government. So 488 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: not long after we had an election, at which point 489 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 3: Labor came in. So Karen Webb was appointed, then we 490 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: went to an election and Chrispians and the Labor government 491 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 3: came in. So essentially her appointment wasn't ever anything to 492 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 3: do with the Labor government. 493 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: So they can actually say, look, it wasn't our call, 494 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: so well, it freeze up one hand. 495 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you go back through I'm sure you love 496 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 3: going back through Hansard and all the parliamentary and I 497 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 3: know you read them word by word, but if you 498 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: did it, I think it would be probably an interesting 499 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: look to see the debate over Karen Webb and probably 500 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: never got to where it could of if it was 501 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 3: early in a term of one government with the opposition 502 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 3: saying your hopeless police commissioner, you know, really going after 503 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 3: it because they can't because they appointed when the Liberals, yeah, yeah, 504 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 3: not long into her tenuine problems really started to arise. 505 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: Label was in power, so the Liberals weren't going to, 506 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 3: you know, say hey, that's our appointment and anyway, so 507 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: that was an interesting thing. As for her departure, look, 508 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: I believe she was told that she needed to go. 509 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 3: I've written that that's that's nothing exclusive unfortunately Joe. But yeah, 510 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 3: I my understanding is that there was conversations in early 511 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 3: this year and that she'd even told people towards the 512 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 3: back of last year that she was thinking about hanging 513 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 3: it up in September because that's her sixty yeth birthday. 514 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: It would have been thirty eight years since she started. 515 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 3: She's pre eighty eight, which means that she started in 516 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 3: the police before nineteen eighty. 517 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: Eight, which big pension. 518 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 3: It comes with a massive pension in excess of four 519 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: million dollars. 520 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: Hey, god, believe I could get Dumbedi's police commissioner. That'll 521 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: be fantastic. 522 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: So look, yeah, don't feel too sorry for Karen. She'll 523 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: be fine. 524 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 3: But to your question, yes, I think she was guided 525 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 3: on her way out. 526 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: That's right, because you can't. Obviously, the last thing you 527 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: can do is you can't actually say, you know, Donald 528 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: trump'ster you're fired. You actually have to you sort of 529 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: unless there's a massive scandal that would justify that. No, 530 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: you basically make it so uncomfortable, or you make it clear, 531 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: or you yeah, don't return phone calls as quickly or 532 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: supportively as you might. Yeah. 533 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: I wrote last year that I really didn't quite understand 534 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 3: why she would want to stay around because of this 535 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: massive pension she had. You know, she'd been the state's 536 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 3: first top cop. She'd achieved a handful of things that 537 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 3: she set out to achieve, and you know, clearly it 538 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 3: was anybody could see that it was time for fresh change. 539 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 2: The cops needed it. 540 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: So. 541 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: A lot of people at that time said no. 542 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 3: I know there was some angry supporters her saying, no, 543 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: you don't get it, you don't understand what it's like. 544 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: She's the most stubborn person you've ever met. That's how 545 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 3: she got to this point. She won't just throw it away. 546 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 3: Why would she do that anyway, Those people about six 547 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: months later said, oh, yeah, I think it's probably times 548 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 3: she's you know, we're advising good on it, you know, 549 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 3: so that's always the way, and that's fine. 550 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: But I think it's a good move for everybody. 551 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 3: And I think hopefully a lot of cops who are 552 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 3: out there will be hoping they can get back to 553 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 3: policing because there's probably, in the opinions of some been 554 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 3: a bit of a shift away to more of a 555 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 3: focus within the police force on social issues, yes, and 556 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: some more minor things. When you know, the reality is, 557 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, we need cops to 558 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: be cops exactly, and to be out on the beat, 559 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 3: you know, day in, day out, around the clock, and 560 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 3: that's getting hard with police numbers dropping, and that's another 561 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 3: that's another problem. 562 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: So the last thing you want is your police officers 563 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: to be virtue signalers instead of actually actual crime stoppers. 564 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 3: Totally, because I mean, my opinion is that the world 565 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 3: is moving in the direction anyway where that's going to 566 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 3: come naturally, you would. 567 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right exactly, just get out there and catch cooks. 568 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: And one of the one of the issues in which 569 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: this sort of thing constantly crops up is when you 570 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: have I mean we'll go to Victoria quickly. But you know, 571 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: we had Victorian police years ago after a particular terrible 572 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: murder said oh, men should stop doing this to women, 573 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of people myself including said well, yeah, 574 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: we know, mate, but they're doing it, so could you 575 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: please actually go and lock up the ones, find out 576 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: the people who are doing it, and put them behind bars. 577 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: And one of the really successful things that the new 578 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: Saballis Police have done is former Task Force. I think 579 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: it was just a sort of start as a trial, 580 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: but it'll be rolled out everywhere, but started in western cities. 581 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: Go out and actually go after those repeat offenders, go 582 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: after the most dangerous domestic violence perpetrators and just get 583 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: all over them like a cheap suit, lock them up, 584 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: make sure they're not being left on balance. That's had 585 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: a massive impact. So that again back to basic sort 586 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: of nuts and bolts shoe let the police. 587 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 3: Work, Yeah, totally, because you know that these are the 588 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 3: biggest issues now communities at the minute, domestic violence, youth. 589 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 2: Crime, rural crime. 590 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 3: If you go to the regions, no matter what state 591 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: nowctually getting it's getting quite concerning nationwide. 592 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: I think some of the things that are going on 593 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 2: in country towns yea. 594 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 3: The domestic violent stuff, it's almost Yeah, the priority and 595 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 3: some of that work that you mentioned before is great. 596 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: I think there's more that cops would like to do 597 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 3: and some new ways, you know, like even I was 598 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 3: speaking to somebody the other day. He was talking about infrastructure 599 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: they're looking at rolling out, which it almost if you 600 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 3: ever watched Criminal Minds, how they can determine, you know, 601 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 3: who it might be just through you know, a catalog 602 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 3: of information they have and essentially to use that kind 603 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 3: of model to pinpoint on somebody say you know Joe 604 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: blogs and say, right, he has had multiple failed relationships 605 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 3: that have ended abos. 606 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: He's building up to something here. 607 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: Let's get on before it strukes again. Yeah, and so 608 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: just getting to Victoria now, obviously you cover the New 609 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: South Wales beat for the Daily Telegraph. But I am 610 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: a proud Victorian, as am I originally, So there you go. 611 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,239 Speaker 1: I knew there was something I liked about you. So 612 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: they've had another just really weird situation where they're chief Commissioner, 613 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: which is a very belt embracest kind of title, because 614 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: if you're the commissioner, I would have thought you're already the chiefs. 615 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: But Shane Patten in February there was a vote of 616 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: no confidence in him that was held by the Police Association. 617 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: So the police union in the middle of an eber, 618 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: in middle of a pay negotiation, which again you would 619 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: think the standard union tactics in the middle of a 620 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: pay dispute you say, oh, you know, the bosses don't 621 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: give us not money. We don't have any faith in you. 622 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: We're going to have a vote. Yeah, we've got no 623 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: confidence in the Police Commissioner. Now, this is the sort 624 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: of thing that the government would normally just sort of 625 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: scoff at and say, well, we don't care what you say. 626 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: It's not a democracy. This is the Commission of Police, 627 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: and the government obviously doesn't want to be paying, you know, 628 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: over the odds in any pay dispute. But instead, Shane 629 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: Pattern just goes, oh voter no confidence, Oh I'm out 630 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: of you. Then I see you later. It just quits 631 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: almost straight away. And I found that, as did an 632 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: other former Victorian Police commission, just unfathomable that. So again 633 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: clearly there is and you're talking about youth crime. Victoria 634 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: has a huge youth crime. It's happening right in the 635 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: middle of Melbourne, not just in the regions where it's 636 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: concentrated among in New southn Queensland. More. Obviously, Pattern there 637 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: and his deputy I think has also been showing the door. 638 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: I think they're actually taking the matter to the Corruption Commission. 639 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: They're saying, you know, was this part of a conspiracy 640 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: or whatever? So they're onz who knows what will come out. 641 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: But again how common is it for governments. I mean 642 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: there is a perception clearly that the commissioner there was 643 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: thrown under the bus as a sort of patsy for 644 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: the youth crime epandemic. So the government could say, oh, well, 645 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: obviously the police haven't been doing their job properly, so 646 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: we're going to sack the bos bring in a new 647 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: guy from New Zealand. So not even from anywhere within 648 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: the ranks of the Victorian Police but a guy from 649 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: New Zealand called Mike Bush, which I'm sure there's a 650 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: pun in there somewhere, but I just can't put finger 651 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: right now. But that seems to be the same sort 652 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: of thing a bit, doesn't it. I mean, slightly different 653 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: factors at play. 654 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: But yeah, if you probably asked that question eighteen months 655 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 3: ago about how common is it for a government to 656 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 3: step in, people would have said not very common. There's 657 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,399 Speaker 3: been a few examples of it, but going back years 658 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 3: and years now. But you spoke about so we've had 659 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 3: Karen Web you know, is set to part later this year, 660 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 3: Shane Patton. As you said, if you go back to 661 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 3: the start of last year, I'm pretty sure it was 662 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: Queensland's first female police commissioner she resigned, ye, and they 663 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 3: were in the midst of a major youth crime epidemic. 664 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 3: That was the reason they're so Look, that's three from 665 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 3: the three, you know, East Coast states in eighteen months. 666 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 2: It's quite unusual, but I think it. 667 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 3: Does go to show where we're at as a society. 668 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: Potentially these issues that are rising the. 669 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 3: Focus in small communities, probably social media building up as well. 670 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: Tensions building up, and I was thinking in the age 671 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: of social media, the age of outrage, the age where 672 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: people can be very very loud, they demand action, they 673 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: demand it. Now that governments have to respond to these 674 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: concerns issues even just perceptions faster and stronger than they 675 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: used to in the past, where they'd be able to 676 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 1: sort of ride out these kind of storms. Now do 677 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: they need to sort of throw red meat or sacrificial 678 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: lambs at these problems. 679 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think law and order is becoming such a 680 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 3: key issue for governments that they have to be looking, 681 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 3: and I mean not even looking, they really are acting 682 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 3: if things aren't improving. And as I said before, some 683 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: of the stuff that's going on in rural communities, no 684 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 3: matter what state you're in, if you go and read 685 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 3: the paper in any of our states or territories, you 686 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 3: will see stories about youth crime in the city, rural 687 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 3: crime on the rise, violence. I don't know if anybody's 688 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 3: solved it anywhere. So, yeah, there are these recurring themes, 689 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 3: recurring issues that are not improving, and eventually, I think 690 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 3: for a lot of police commissioners and clearly a lot 691 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 3: of government's guests to a point where you just go okay, well, 692 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 3: let's try something new. 693 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,439 Speaker 1: And another factor you mentioned, and I wonder how much 694 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: that has to do with it, but it is an 695 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: uncanny commonality. But you mentioned that it was Queensland's first 696 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: female police commissioner, and funnily enough, the former Victorian police 697 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: commissioner who said that was surprised that the government slash 698 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: the slash slash. The current commissioner folded so quickly to 699 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: pressure from the police union, which makes it look like 700 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: that was, you know, in fact, just a sort of 701 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: a trojan horse or just a manchurin candidate to be 702 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: able to do what they wanted to do in the 703 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: first place. But that was Christine Nixon, who was the 704 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: Victoria's first female police commissioner, and she copped a huge 705 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: amount of stick. She came from New South Wales, so 706 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,959 Speaker 1: a lot of the rank and file on Victoria didn't 707 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: like her because she was a blow in. A lot 708 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 1: of them didn't like her because she was a woman. 709 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: I know police officers I know spoken to her in 710 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: very about her, I should say, in very sort of 711 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: unpleasant terms. But she said she was surprised that the 712 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: government followed so quickly because she sort of tufed it out, 713 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: even though she got a huge amount of trouble for 714 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: having dinner during the middle of some bushfires and having 715 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: a haircut, And you would think that, you know, if 716 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: anyone was going to come to the pressure. But do 717 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: you think that in the case of New South Wales 718 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: and Queensland and maybe just the sheer amount of pressure 719 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: that was put on Christine Nixon in her time, do 720 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: you think it's a woman thing? Do you think it's 721 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: part of it is, you know, people cops or the 722 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: public being uncomfortable with having a woman for the first 723 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: time in what is usually such a male and masculine 724 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:53,879 Speaker 1: and macho kind of role. 725 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do not everyone agrees. 726 00:37:58,840 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: I have. 727 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 3: Look in the case of Karen Wad, which is obviously 728 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 3: the one I know the most about, there are mirrored 729 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,439 Speaker 3: things that you could point your finger at and say 730 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 3: that's a problem. 731 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: That's a problem. That's a problem, that's the problem, and 732 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,479 Speaker 2: none of them have to do with her being a woman. 733 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 3: But I do probably think that, whether consciously or subconsciously, 734 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:20,959 Speaker 3: in the minds of a lot of people, they're probably 735 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 3: is a little. 736 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 2: Bit of misogyny. 737 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 3: But other people who have been equally critical of her 738 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 3: have said no, I don't think so. Supporters of her 739 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 3: have said no, I don't think it's anything to do 740 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 3: with that, So I don't know. 741 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 2: It's just my opinion. Joe doesn't count for much. 742 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: Who knows, neither his mine. But we're here anyway. Josh Hanrahan, 743 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: Crime reporter extraordinaire for The Daily Telegraph, Thanks so much 744 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: for joining us the Real Story pleasure, and that is 745 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: all we had time for this week. I hope that 746 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: none of you actually fell asleep or had a heart 747 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: attack due to all the over excitement, like me when 748 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: I broke down the Australian Labor Party factional system. But 749 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: if you are still alive, please come back next week. 750 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: You can leave us a review. You can leave us 751 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: a rating five stars. Obviously. You can slide too my 752 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: dms on Instagram at Joe Underscore Hildebrand. You can send 753 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 1: us an electronic letter. It's called an email and it's 754 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: the Real story. At novapodcast dot com dot au. You 755 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: can catch me in just about every bloody newspaper and 756 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 1: on every TV channel in the country. I'm just sick 757 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: of myself, quite frankly. If you can avoid me, more 758 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: credit to you. But if you can't or if you 759 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: don't want to, I'll see you next week.