WEBVTT - Somewhere between dead and alive: Nicole Morris Pt. 2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.640 We live in the most connected era in human history, 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:55.240 mobile phones, the Internet, CCTV on every corner. Yet there's 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.480 currently almost three thousand long term missing persons in this country. 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.360 Nicole Morris is the founder of Australia's only missing person's 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.880 database and the author of Lost, a book dedicated to 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.440 the long term missing. She has spent decades ensuring that 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.119 the people who vanished are not simply forgotten. In Part 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.360 two of my conversation with Nicole, we explore the strange, 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.160 sometimes baffling circumstances in which people disappear and ask the 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.640 questions that linger longer after the search parties have gone home. 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.679 Was it a choice, a terrible accident, or something much 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:34.800 more sinister? Nicole Morris, welcome back to part two of 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:35.840 I Catchkillers. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:37.319 Thank you so much. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.679 When we were finishing off in part one, we're talking 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.520 about people that reach out to you a lot about 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.960 information that they might have or not about missing persons. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:59.120 I'm going to pray this out to your clearvoyance. You laugh, Okay, 0:01:59.280 --> 0:01:59.640 I have. 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:06.080 I've never been quite about my condemnation of people who 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:10.560 will take advantage of vulnerable missing person's families. And it 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.800 happens all the time, whether they mean to or not. 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:20.120 And it happened recently as well. There was a very 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:25.080 well known American clairvoyant who came to Australia specifically to 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:30.640 talk about missing children, including William I think, and didn't 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.280 like it when I went onto their page and pointed 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.680 out that that spelled his name wrong. Oh you know 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.520 that doesn't matter. Yes it does, Yes it does. And 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:46.359 you're profiting from the terrible distress of these families, and 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.240 it's concerning to me the impact that it has on 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.320 the families as well. Having said that, almost every missing 0:02:55.360 --> 0:03:00.280 person's family will consult a medium or a psychic at 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.880 some point because they have that desperation to find answers, 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.840 and sometimes it brings them comfort and it is one 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.760 hundred percent their right to do that, and I would 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.280 never tell them not to. What concerns me is when 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:18.920 when people will randomly decide to pass on information to 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:24.360 a family that they have dreamed up, that they've they've 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.840 felt in their waters, and that can cause great distress 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.840 to a family. I remember a woman whose daughter had 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.480 gone missing. She hadn't come home from a nightclub, and 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:40.280 some person contacted her and said, oh, I feel that 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.520 she has been abducted and raped and murdered and she's 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.440 lying bound in a shed. And the woman came home 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.240 safe the next day, but for that period of time, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.520 that image was in that mother's head, and that is unforgivable, 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:00.240 absolutely unforgivable. And there are families I don't remember, one 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.240 of the Clermont in Western Australia, the victims of that 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:08.080 serial killer. Her dad was sloshing around in a swamp 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.560 trying to dig through the mud because a clearvoyant had 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.360 told him that's where the body was. And I think 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.680 he said he was standing in this swamp, going why 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.920 am I doing this? This is crazy? But that's the 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:27.159 level of distress. The families of missing people feel. It's 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.280 a desperation, so they'll listen to anything. And there are 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:34.720 people who will take advantage of that, either innocently, you know, 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.039 they might go they might really believe that they feel this, 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.640 or they might be trying to profit in some way 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:41.279 from that. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.800 What you said right up front. They're exploiting vulnerable people. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:50.200 That's what I take issue with clairvoyance. I was at 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:56.120 a symposium, international symposium with unsolved homicides, and I think 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:00.359 it was someone from Scotland Yard or the FBI was 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.359 talking and talking about clearvoyance and just said, show me 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.080 a clearvoyant that takes you to the body, and I'll 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.360 show you the person that put the body there. Now, 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:14.120 what that's meaning is no case. And this person was 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.400 brought from overseas and speaking it couldn't reference any case. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.320 And there was some very experienced law enforcement officers there 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.200 from right around the country and internationally there and no 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.040 one knew of any clearvoyant that. 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:28.840 Has helped solve a case. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.080 So if they're saying they know where the body is, 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:38.040 they must have put the body there. That's that's my taken. 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.520 I have an open mind to a lot of things, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:45.719 but also a practicality that comes with investigating homicide. And 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.760 no clearvoyant has ever assisted an investigation that I'm aware of, 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.159 Certainly not any investigation I have been involved in. I've 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.160 heard clairvoyance say they helped investigations that I was involved 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:03.160 in and before for whatever reason. I'm a strong advocate 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.320 for victims of crime, the victim's families and what I 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.560 do take issue with, and I think you balanced it 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.839 nicely when you said, yeah, they might be genuinely thinking 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:17.240 they're doing the right thing, and I accept that. But 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:22.120 the trauma they cause victims families when they contact them 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.560 out of the blue and say, look, I've got the 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.000 information that your loved one might be buried under the 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:32.960 bridge or different type of things like that. The victims 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.760 contact me, they're almost embarrassed to contact me, but it 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.200 plays on their mind, and it plays on their mind 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.680 to the point sometimes the victims will actually go out 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.960 and search the area themselves where I say, well, I 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.000 can't actually dedicate resources to that based on the information 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.880 from a clear voyant. But again, perception is a funny 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.400 thing because I think we've all watched enough crime shows 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.479 or whatever where a clearvoyant has solved the crime a vision. 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.719 But all the detectives I've dealt with, all the detectives 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.119 I respect, I think they sit in the same boat 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:13.120 as I do in regards to clairvoyance and their impact 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.480 on investigations. The troubling part of it is when you're 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:22.040 running an investigation, if someone's providing information, sometimes I'm thinking, 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.040 is this someone just trying to ingratiate themselves into investigation. 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:27.800 Maybe I've got to have a look at that person 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.880 because they why are they getting themselves involved? But yeah, 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:36.760 I'm aware of it, and I've had family members contact 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.400 me so many times about clearvoyance and the only thing 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.520 that provides false hope, and you know when that hope 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:49.040 is lost again, just further paint. Having said that, I 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.760 do understand why the families because they're desperate, they're vulnerable, 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.440 and they will try anything. So yeah, it's a murky, 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.880 murky area. But I just wanted to I got a 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.720 sense maybe I'm a clear I got a sense that 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.520 I got a sense that you would have come across 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.240 that a lot with the profile you've got with missing persons, 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:10.320 and I just wanted to get your your. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.640 Take on it constantly. And so it is. It is 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:19.760 a delicate balance of not wanting to to criticize the 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.640 family's decision to do that, because that's completely up to them, 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.480 and most of them do and with varying results they can. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:30.960 And then some of them will tell me that they've 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:35.440 gone to see five different cleairvoyance taro readers, psychics, mediums, 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.960 and and they've all told them something different, and so 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.719 I'm going, okay, so what does that tell you? And 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.640 and but again it's their right to do that. And 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.199 if it makes them feel better, if if a clearvoyance 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:54.280 said they've passed there, they're watching over you there, they 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.720 want you to be happy in your life, then that's 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.640 fairly harmless and not going to dress them too much. 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.000 And if it provides them comfort, that's a good thing. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.480 But again, if they're if they're saying, you know, yes, 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:10.679 they were horribly murdered, and and and you will find 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:15.040 their body somewhere near a town Starting with R that 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.400 that can make things so much worse because then they're 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.200 constantly going, oh, could it be the River Arena? Could 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.800 it be you know, it's it's it's so hard. 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.280 The other thing I've noticed, so higher the profile the investigation, 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.800 the more Clearboyance come out to. 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.320 And that's yeah, quite attention to them, and they don't 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.480 care who they who they use, particularly that these high 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.760 profile ones that they picked William for a reason because 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.960 he is Australia's highest profile missing person, they're not They 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.360 didn't pick a case that no one has ever heard of. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.000 So yeah, and they're going to solve that. 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.800 And I cautioned any any police that because I have 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:02.040 seen some police actually want to follow up up the 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.400 information based on Clearvoyant. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.439 But I think there's my experience. 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:12.360 I think the police sometimes want to kind of help 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.800 the family deal with it by not disagreeing with it. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.480 So if the police officer says, don't be ridiculous, you 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.440 can't listen to them, that can cause the family distress. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.400 But if sometimes a police officer will say, okay, yeah, 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.600 let's do that to keep you, you know, to give 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.280 you a little bit of peace. Let's bring that on board, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.320 they can come with us, and we'll have a little 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:34.440 look something like that. 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.040 Yeah, and I do understand that, and I've been guilty 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:39.840 of that myself sometimes. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.559 Okay, we'll have a look at that park, Yeah, a. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.200 Cursory look and see to put people's minds at these 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.480 But again, I suppose it just comes into how vulnerable 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.480 people are when they lose their loved ones. In your book, 0:10:54.920 --> 0:11:00.280 there's a quote that in your last book Lost, all 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.120 missing persons need to be treated as homicides until proven otherwise, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.959 certainly not written off as suicide, especially if there is 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.680 mental health present. I'll jump in there just on my 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:14.360 takeaway from it. All missing persons need to be treated 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.360 as homicides until proven otherwise. I say that all the 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:22.280 time with anywhere, if we're called homicide to a deceased person, 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.480 and the same with a missing person. So one hundred 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.280 percent agree, we agree with that. I'm interested in your 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.080 take on that part, but also the second part of it. 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.840 Certainly not written off as a suicide, especially if there's 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.599 mental health present. So that quotes in your book for 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.679 a reason. Let's break it down. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.400 It sort of became very apparent to me in my 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.640 second book Missing, when I was writing about Sandri and 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.520 Jordan she had had a previous suicide attempt and therefore 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:57.280 the coroner and police have said, well, obviously she's killed herself. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.160 But her family strongly agree with that, and there has 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.520 been I think a lot of evidence since then to 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.920 suggest that she could well be the victim of foul play, 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.880 but police, I think are just doggedly sticking to that 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:17.240 no previous suicide attempt, therefore this is what's happened. And 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:22.520 just this week, this week, last week, the Queensland authorities 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.240 have said no, there's not enough evidence to sort of 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.920 push for a full coronial inquiry, which is so frustrating. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.439 So I'm actually going to send Debra Frecklington a copy 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.760 of my book, though I want her to read Sandrine's 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.360 chapter and then if she still says no, I really 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.480 don't think there's any foul play here, then I think 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.040 I don't know what else we can do. But in 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.559 Lost it was particularly evident with the case of Brian Maxthead, 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.480 who twenty five year old young man who went missing 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:59.360 from Darwin jumped on a plane to Sydney, and I 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:06.120 think because he was on antidepressants. Then the coroner said, well, 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.080 obviously he's taken his own life. That doesn't make any 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:13.520 sense to me or to his family. He caught a 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.760 taxi to King's Cross for a night out, wherein that 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.360 is the suggestion of suicide. He left all his stuff 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.800 at the hotel. And just because someone is on anti 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.280 there's vast numbers of people on antidepressants, that doesn't mean 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.600 they're suicidal at all. And the issue that his mother 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.560 took exception to was a police officer who had never 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:43.320 met Brian, who was basing all of her conclusions and 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.240 assumptions on a report that she had in front of her, 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.120 stood up to the coroner and said, yes, in our opinion, 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.360 Brian has taken his own life. And his mother is 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.240 sitting there going you didn't even meet him, and she 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.640 knew him inside out and backwards. They were they were 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.640 extremely close. Every time I talked to Janine, she says 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.160 I loved Brian so much, and Brian loved me. In 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:11.040 every conversation we have that exact phrase, we loved each 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:16.319 other so much. She knows her boy, And why wouldn't 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:22.000 police think Okay, a young, fairly naive twenty five year 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.720 old from Darwin who'd never really left Darwin jumps on 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.640 a plane to Sydney and goes to King's Cross and 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.120 in this was I think two thousand and nine, and 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.920 King's Cross was not for the fainthearted. You know, it's 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.600 been a bit gentrified now, but two thousand and nine 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.760 it was very wild and wooly and a lot of robberies, 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.600 a lot of fights, a lot of violence. And you've 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.920 got a naive twenty five year old from Darwin in 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.720 that mix. Why wouldn't you consider that that could be 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.080 a homicide. And the problem also with that case is 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.600 it was handpled back between Northern Territory Police and New 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.120 South Wales Police because they were saying, oh, well, he 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.720 technically went missing from the Northern Territory, but he was 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.000 last seen in Sydney. So it's not our case, it's 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.080 your case where it clearly it should have been handed 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:11.000 by King's Cross. Polus. 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.360 Families don't need to be caught up with that. I 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.600 understand what you're saying on that case and valid points 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.600 that you're bringing up. I've got to say, and I'm 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:28.840 sure you've encountered this situation as well. I've had situations where, yeah, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.800 the evidence is overwhelming that a certain thing has happened 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.840 that might be self harm, but it's very hard for 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.440 the families to come to terms with that, And I 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.360 think we've got to acknowledge that occurs as well. And 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:48.040 I understand that completely that families are looking the worst 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.720 thing you could think is someone's taken your own life. 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.920 So I understand the starting point for families are going, no, 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:59.520 they wouldn't have done that. But that's a very difficult 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.720 part of the play sometimes where you've got to get 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.280 opinions across and show the evidence. How do you overcome 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:12.000 those difficult situations. Communication presents as much as the evidence 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.080 as you can and let the family sit on it. 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:16.720 Understand that no matter what you say is not going 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.440 to pease the family if they're protecting the memory of 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:25.600 their loved one exactly. That's my experience in that sort 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.040 of area where it's a bit ambiguous about as to 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.640 what's happened, and if the evidence is leaning towards it 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.840 was self harm or misadventure, that doesn't necessarily sarily have 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.920 to be self harm, could be misadventure, and the family 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.800 don't want to want to believe it. And I understand 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.280 the pain the families are going through, and I understand 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:50.160 how dare from their point of view, anyone say this 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.160 about our loved ones, what's your take on it? Because 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.720 I'm sure you would have seen situations like that before, 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:57.320 and how do you deal with it? 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.240 I actually wrote an entire chapter on this exact topic. 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.440 I wrote a whole chapter that was supposed to be 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:05.560 I think it was supposed to be in the second book. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.919 And it was a young man missing from the Newcastle 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.520 area and he had a history of severe mental illness. 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:18.080 He was the most distressed, tortured young man. It absolutely 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.840 broke my heart. His mum found him in a really 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.640 terrible state. He hadn't showered for weeks, he hadn't been 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.080 eating properly, he hadn't been taking his medication, and she 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.720 took him home with her for a few days, and 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:36.320 he disappeared from her home. And because of his severe 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:41.680 mental illness, he was schizophrenic and he was very paranoid 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.960 about things. He had installed cameras in his home because 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:48.760 he was absolutely convinced that people were trying to break 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.280 in and harm him, and his mother believed that. So 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.520 to me, it was clear that this young man was 0:17:55.720 --> 0:18:00.159 just tortured and he had had multiple suicide attempts in 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.960 the past, and was it was very clear that he 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.600 was extremely unwell at the point at the time he 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.359 went missing. He was at the lowest point. He was 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:14.159 sort of facing criminal charges and he didn't have a 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:19.080 great future ahead of him, and he had been hospitalized 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.200 multiple times, which he absolutely hated. He knew that that's 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.440 what was going to happen again. They would they would 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.760 commit him again. He was just an absolute mess. And 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.920 so to me, it was clear that that's what had 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.040 happened to him. He had chosen to take his own life, 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.959 and that was the conclusion of police and the coroner 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.080 as well. But his mother was absolutely adamant, he said, 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.199 she said, no, no, no, people would after him. He 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.120 told me that people were after him and that's what 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.280 was happening. So I wrote the chapter based on what 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.520 she had told me and the available evidence, and I 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.159 sent it to her and she was absolutely furious. Was 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.400 she I'm horrified at what you've written. And I said, 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.960 I'm so sorry, I've written what you've told me. Oh, 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.199 that's just not that's just not him, that's just not 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.760 what happened. You're you're suggesting, And I said, I'm not 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:12.679 suggesting anything. I'm just presenting what the facts of his life, 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.480 the facts his entire history, and the facts of the situation. 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:17.919 And she said, that's he's not going to be in 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.080 your book because that's not an accurate portrayal of my son. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.840 And I said, that's completely fine, that's absolutely fine, because 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:29.600 she is not there in her catching up to the reality. 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.800 And maybe it's that's too painful, it's too hard, too 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.479 painful to think he took his own life. So she said, no, 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.320 that's it. Someone's someone's murdered him, and no one's listening 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.960 to me. So I said, and you are completely entitled 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.760 to believe that, but you know this, I can't help 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:47.480 you get past that. 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:49.440 Difficult, isn't it. 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:53.800 It's listening to you tell that story and that just yeah, 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.520 I can see how how hard hard it is. But 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:01.920 again it just shows the impact. The only peace and 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.639 getting back to that quote to start with that you 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:10.240 can give to the families is demonstrating that the matter 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.600 has been properly investigated, Everything that can be done has 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:18.480 been done, and the end result, the only court of 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:20.520 law that they can go to to get someone to 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:25.760 adjudicate on it is the coronial inquest at the coroner's court, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.160 and a lot of times that's what the families want. 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.040 They just want all the evidence presented at the coroner 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.560 and the coroner to make an assessment of what's happened 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:41.680 happened to their loved one. I've seen situations like that 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.040 the regardless of the result, regardless of the evidence, that 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.960 the family is not going to not going to be 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.159 happy with the results. But I think the way that 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.360 you're adopting it, step back, give them piece if that's 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.280 the way that they've got to process it. And it's 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.720 such a deeply personal thing telling someone what's happened to 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:01.600 their loved one. 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:04.600 Yeah, yeah, And I'll still make appeals for him as 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.920 long as it takes absolutely you know, I'm not going 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.280 to withdraw my help from a family just because that 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:15.320 they were upset. There's very few people who have chosen 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.399 to not want their appeals out there, which is an 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.320 interesting concept as well. I could count on one hand 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.280 the people who have said no, I don't want you 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.960 to make appeals for my missing person, so they still 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:28.240 want the appeals to keep going. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:35.359 Other problems associated when people have disappeared, and sometimes a 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:41.160 coroner's court can resolve this. But someone disappears, who has 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.240 access to their bank accounts, if they're running a business, 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.640 how they manage a business, if they're renting a property, 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.800 who takes over that. There's so many issues that need 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.600 to be followed up when someone disappears. And we've talked 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.760 not children in this regards. We're talking adults that are 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.920 living a life. Talk us through the problems that people 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.640 are found with that because quite often if someone, if 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:07.080 you love one, disappears and they're running a business, you 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.720 don't have a lot of rights initially until things have 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.000 been properly adjudicated on the decisions have been made. 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.040 Exactly, and people don't know where to start as well. 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.040 And I don't think I would know where to start 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.119 if I had to suddenly take over a family member's 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.240 of theirs. I mean, I've you know, if your parents 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:31.360 are elderly, they can appoint you as guardians of their afairs. 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:34.439 But when someone goes missing suddenly, particularly if they're younger, 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:39.280 the families find themselves in a huge mess. And sometimes 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.800 the coronial process can take many years, and depending on 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:45.200 which state it's in, it can be difficult as well. 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.399 In Lost, I talk about the case of Michael Graham, 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.240 who went missing in the outback on the gold fields 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:55.399 in Western Australia, and his wife managed to get his 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.800 inquest quite quickly, sort of within a year, because it 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.639 was very obvious that Michael was deceased at that point 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:05.520 and was not coming home, so it would have been 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:11.080 easy for the coroner, but she found herself with ridiculous 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:15.320 red tape to She wanted to take their daughter over 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:18.800 to New Zealand to visit Michael's family, and she couldn't 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:22.960 because Michael wasn't there to sign the consent and she's 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.800 standing there arguing saying, I just he's not here to 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:28.800 sign the consent form. He's missing. They go, well, he's 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:31.439 not alive or dead. He's missing. We don't have a 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:35.439 box for missing. And she couldn't even put a notice 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.040 in the paper for a memorial service for him because 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.840 they said, no, we can do a funeral notice, but 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:44.320 we can't do a memorial notice unless there's a notification 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:46.520 from the funeral home. And she said, well there isn't 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:48.359 one because I don't have a body and I haven't 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:54.560 had a funeral and con frustrating, Yeah, and it is 0:23:54.640 --> 0:24:00.840 absolutely ridiculous. Tony Ryan had to take over car payments 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:04.359 for his sister. Who does that? Who keeps paying the 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.240 rent on a house? And how long do you keep 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:09.240 paying the rent after someone goes missing, you know, because 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.200 you expect them to come back, So the rent still 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.879 needs to be paid, the car payments still have to 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.359