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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person has

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part three of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: Detective Chief Inspector Pamela Young. If you missed the first

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Speaker 1: couple of episodes, we got to learn a little bit

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Speaker 1: about Pam's career and some of the interesting investigations that

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Speaker 1: she led. You'd also found out what goes on in

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Speaker 1: the home of too highly strung homicide detectives because we

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Speaker 1: lived together for quite some time. Now we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about an investigation that I think, Pam and full

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Speaker 1: credit to you, I say it upfront, the family law

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Speaker 1: court bombings. It was something that was a blight on

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Speaker 1: our state or even the country, that judicial offices being targeted.

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Speaker 1: So the significance of the investigation should never be understated.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you talk us through that investigation. You became

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Speaker 1: involved later in the investigation because it was a reinvestigation,

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Speaker 1: and that I want you to take us right through

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Speaker 1: that investigation because I think it's a fascinating story in itself.

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Speaker 1: But we'll delve into the dark areas. We're also going

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Speaker 1: to delve into the interesting areas because it's not often

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Speaker 1: that you get two people in a podcast that were

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Speaker 1: both homicide detectives and lived together. I was taught very

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Speaker 1: early in my career, policing career, not to ask questions

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Speaker 1: that you don't know the answers to. But I'm going

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Speaker 1: to throw caution to the win and I've got two

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Speaker 1: questions for you. You can choose which one you answer first.

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Speaker 1: What was the best thing about living with me? And

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Speaker 1: what was the worst thing about living with me? And

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Speaker 1: please be kind?

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I'll be efficient, So I'll deal with the

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Speaker 2: shorter of those two, which is the bad things. So

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Speaker 2: I was first indeared to you when you came up

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Speaker 2: with something that you thought would make me like you

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Speaker 2: after I had rejected you.

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Speaker 1: This is interesting because I.

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Speaker 2: Said, I don't think we've got much in common other

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Speaker 2: than work, because and I'm more into arts and cultural

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Speaker 2: things and you're a sports person. True, so there was

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Speaker 2: a delay with us getting together, but then you found

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Speaker 2: a play on boxing.

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Speaker 1: I still think that's one of the better players I've

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Speaker 1: ever seen. That was a great call.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't it really clever because I don't think there'd ever

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Speaker 2: been a play on boxing before that or since, But

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Speaker 2: you just found one. You've researched and hunted it down,

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Speaker 2: and you invited me to play. So I got my

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Speaker 2: arts and you got your sport because of play on boxing.

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Speaker 2: So I thought that was a big tick.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that there was something I like plays

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Speaker 1: but it was Yeah, we were we had different interests,

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Speaker 1: but you broadened my scope on the on things. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure how how much I broadened your your scope

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Speaker 1: on different things, but yeah, I do have an interest

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Speaker 1: in the theater now and have continued that on I

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Speaker 1: still to this day haven't been able to find another

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Speaker 1: one about boxing, but keep looking looking out for it. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So that was the highlights of living.

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Speaker 2: With me, So I do have other little things on

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Speaker 2: the list. So very are you, very passionate and generous

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Speaker 2: lover jubilin.

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Speaker 1: I expect that, but thank you. I'll take take a compliment.

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Speaker 2: The bonus was you also were very good at cleaning

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Speaker 2: the house, so that combined combination was perfect.

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Speaker 1: Well, as they say, behind every good woman, there's a

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Speaker 1: little man in the house. That was that was my role.

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Speaker 2: Oh and there's something else. It was seeing you be

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Speaker 2: such a good father to your children. I believe their

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Speaker 2: names are in public.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we can talk about them.

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Speaker 2: And seeing them bring out a soft affection and giggles

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Speaker 2: in you that no one else in the whole world could.

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Speaker 1: Well that that actually means a lot, because people perception

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Speaker 1: of me when I was in the police at least

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Speaker 1: was not much fun in this life, but just a

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Speaker 1: serious hard ass. But yeah, you've gone into an area

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Speaker 1: that's and it affects so many people too. You come

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Speaker 1: into the life and I bring a little bit of baggage.

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Speaker 1: I've got two kids, but you're a good influence on

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Speaker 1: them too, so I'll compliment you, compliment you there. You

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Speaker 1: do realize we're having this conversation for all the public

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Speaker 1: to listen. We better move on.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's not forget that second question.

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Speaker 1: Right, I was going to move straight into the family

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Speaker 1: law corpse bombs. Okay.

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Speaker 2: What was the problems living with so definitely the fact

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Speaker 2: that every time we were having sex your phone would ring.

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Speaker 2: It certainly felt like every time, which you can understand,

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Speaker 2: you know, busy cases and on call and all that,

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Speaker 2: But it was the fact that you answered it, Jubilan,

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Speaker 2: that is unforgivable and disrespectful and very disappointing. So that's

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Speaker 2: the top of the negative list.

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Speaker 1: They were important phone calls half the time they were informants.

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Speaker 2: Oh when the other activity wasn't thank you.

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Speaker 1: For that in the hull anyway, Yep, I regret that, Pam.

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Speaker 1: I apologize. I publicly said I apologize for answering the

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Speaker 1: phone whilst having sex.

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Speaker 2: I really didn't take to the distance we had to

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Speaker 2: live away from the office for you to be close

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Speaker 2: to your children. I understood why it was important, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't like it physically because I'm not a morning person.

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Speaker 2: So the other good thing about living with you was

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Speaker 2: how you would wake me up gently. It seemed like

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Speaker 2: middle of the night pretty well. Was you'd dressed me,

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Speaker 2: carry me to the car, tuck a little package of

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Speaker 2: vegemite toast in my briefcase for when I woke up.

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised you realized we lived a long way from

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Speaker 1: the office, because you slept the whole time and I

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Speaker 1: just woke up when we're driving into.

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Speaker 2: The car p yeah, yeah, yeah, And the toast had

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Speaker 2: gone cold by then.

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Speaker 1: I wrapped it in foil. I tried to keep it

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Speaker 1: warm best. But okay, well, yeah, interesting times if you

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Speaker 1: want to get an insight into what it's like. And

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Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit more about the precious von call,

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Speaker 1: living in the household where people like the phone call

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Speaker 1: can dictate your life for the next couple of months,

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Speaker 1: so you don't know where you're going to head. Let's

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Speaker 1: get off the personal stuff for a bit and family

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Speaker 1: law court bombing. Can you give us an overview of

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Speaker 1: that if people are not for me with the particular case.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So it was a series of three murders and

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Speaker 2: five bombings that occurred between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: five in Sydney, mostly targeting the Family Court of Australia.

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Speaker 2: It was my first deployment out of the academy to

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Speaker 2: guard the homes of judges, along with a lot more

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Speaker 2: professional and experienced hundreds of others. Huge resources went into

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Speaker 2: it and it was the last case that I was

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Speaker 2: asked to solve. By chance, there's that link, So that's

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Speaker 2: a nice yeah, yeah, yeah, so yes. So the crimes

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Speaker 2: started in nineteen eighty with Justice Opus being shot as

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Speaker 2: he answered his door at close ranged by an unknown offender.

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Speaker 2: Then four years later, oh by the way, his children

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Speaker 2: and wife were home of course at the time. Four

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Speaker 2: years later, a bomb is placed on the doorstep of

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Speaker 2: Justice g another judge of the Family Court. The bomb

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Speaker 2: went off in the middle of the night took down

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Speaker 2: most of his house in which he and his two

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Speaker 2: children were sleeping. Fortunately and unexpectedly they survived, of course

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Speaker 2: injured and scarred, but survived. Then within a short period

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Speaker 2: after that and there was a bomb placed at the

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Speaker 2: courthouse at Paramatta, so the Family Court of Australia courthouse.

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Speaker 2: It was placed near a supporting pillar, so if it

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Speaker 2: had been more successful quite possibly could have taken down

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Speaker 2: most of that rink. Fortunately no one was injured. Then

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Speaker 2: then there's a lovely woman, Pearl Watson. She was the

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Speaker 2: wife of another Family Court justice Ray Watson. She did

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Speaker 2: what she usually does in the morning when her husband

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Speaker 2: is just finishing packing his briefcase. She went to open

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Speaker 2: her front door to wave to the government driver. So

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Speaker 2: they all had drivers for good reason. She was intending

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Speaker 2: to waive to say, you know, he'll be out soon.

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Speaker 2: She also worked at the Family Court, but she wasn't

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Speaker 2: going to work on that particular day. As she opened

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Speaker 2: the door, she was thrown back through two brick walls,

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Speaker 2: two internal brick walls, and lost her limbs and her

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Speaker 2: head and of course died instantly. Then there's a four

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Speaker 2: kilogram bomb found in a car, wired to the ignition

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Speaker 2: of a solicitor of the Family Court. If there's anything

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Speaker 2: amusing in any of this, it's when the because it

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Speaker 2: was in the days we didn't have bombings and we

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Speaker 2: didn't have a bomb squad as such, we had scientific unit,

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Speaker 2: and they came. They thought it was a joke. They

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Speaker 2: came and saw the capacity of it, and the only

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Speaker 2: equipment that they had to make it safe was to

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Speaker 2: place a fishing hook around the detonator and with the rod.

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Speaker 2: Then they went to the back of the house or

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Speaker 2: a regular suburban house surrounded by other houses. Of course,

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Speaker 2: this was after everyone had been moved to a safe

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Speaker 2: distance from the back of the house. They reel in

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Speaker 2: the fishing hook, which renders the bomb safe. We ended

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Speaker 2: up buying the same car model and blowing it up,

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Speaker 2: and it would have we could have. We showed it

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Speaker 2: could have destroyed that whole house and surrounding once as well,

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Speaker 2: a very large bomb. The reason it didn't detonate was

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Speaker 2: the see that the solicitor of the family court had

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Speaker 2: lived there but had moved out quite recently. The tenants

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Speaker 2: who were there. Peter, he went to work on his car,

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Speaker 2: which was parked on the driveway and he's literally he

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Speaker 2: sat in the driver's seat to turn the ignition. He stopped.

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Speaker 2: He thought, no, if I turned on the ignition, the

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Speaker 2: exhaust pipe, which is what he wanted to work on,

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Speaker 2: would get hot je so in a moment he decided

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Speaker 2: not to turn the car on. So he then, in

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Speaker 2: preparing to work on it, he opened the bonnet. He

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Speaker 2: discovered the four kilo bomb in that car. So how

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Speaker 2: lucky is that? And then we have by now we're

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five, then we have a very large

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Speaker 2: explosion of a bomb under the podium at the Jehovah's

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Speaker 2: Witness Kingdom Hall Temple in Western Sydney. At that time

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Speaker 2: there was a congregation gathered of about one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty people and the bomb was placed directly under where

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Speaker 2: the preacher was speaking. He was when the bomb went off.

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Speaker 2: He was thrown up through what was now vacant ceiling

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Speaker 2: space roof space, and he landed in a tree and

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Speaker 2: most of his clothes were removed in the blast. He

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Speaker 2: survived amazingly with fractures. The randomness of bombs shows by

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Speaker 2: there was one victim who died, David. He was sitting

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Speaker 2: in the second row from where the preacher was with

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Speaker 2: his family, and he died instantly. He had, by chance

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Speaker 2: turned to his wife. Of course, he had no idea

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Speaker 2: what was about to happen, but she told the police

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Speaker 2: at the time that the last words he said to

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Speaker 2: her was I love you. Well, so yeah, really really, Again.

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Speaker 1: Just outlining those offenses, the magnitude of it is hard

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Speaker 1: to comprehend, even like it as homicide detectives, and we've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of shit, but that is just an

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Speaker 1: amitude and the random not randomness, because it was targeted

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Speaker 1: the victims of catastrophic effect when you start placing bombs

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Speaker 1: in locations like that.

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Speaker 2: That with the church when they were roughly ninety seven

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Speaker 2: seriously injured people, seventy went to hospital, sixteen were children

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Speaker 2: and five babies. At that time, they weren't absolutely clear

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Speaker 2: whether they were targeted, I and linked or random. But

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Speaker 2: we got to the bottom of that when the case

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Speaker 2: came to me in twenty thirteen, and yeah, we got.

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Speaker 1: To take I want to break it down because I

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Speaker 1: found that particular case fascinating. And I remember before you

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Speaker 1: were at Unsolved Thomas Side. I did a stint there

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Speaker 1: and I think you took my place when I took

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Speaker 1: some time off and I was asked to have a

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Speaker 1: look at that investigation, just to have a cursory look

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Speaker 1: over it. And I remember I think we had a conversation.

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Speaker 1: I said, Jesus, I hadn't appreciated I worked on it

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Speaker 1: like you as a young uniform officer where we were

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Speaker 1: at the camp out the front of the judges' homes

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Speaker 1: to protect the judges. Yeah, it was a fascinating fascinating case,

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. There was a lot, you know,

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Speaker 1: resources were put into it, and I've got to say

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised in a way that didn't come to a conclusion.

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Speaker 1: I know, like investigations evolve and it's easier sometimes to

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Speaker 1: investigate all the matters. But yeah, it just died, didn't it.

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Speaker 1: Most of our most of our homicide career, it was

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Speaker 1: never mentioned the family law court bombings, was it? There

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Speaker 1: wasn't something that was actively being worked on.

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Speaker 2: No, I guess no case can be in its entirety,

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Speaker 2: but at that time there's full effort. The Prime Minister,

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Speaker 2: who was Bob Hawk at that time, he announced he

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Speaker 2: got involved. He announced the largest what was called Task

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Speaker 2: Force then the Joint Bomb Task Force, which was combining

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Speaker 2: the new Southised Police, Federal Police and the Millet Tree.

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Speaker 2: So we had no no real we needed explosive knowledge.

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Speaker 2: So and of about one hundred and twenty personnel, so

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Speaker 2: certainly the biggest to that time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well let's fast forward. So you're the you're the

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Speaker 1: detective chief inspector in charge of unsolved Thomasoe, and you've

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Speaker 1: got the that case has been allocated to you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it had been reviewed a few times. People had

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Speaker 2: gone back into it, but we did a we dug

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Speaker 2: deep and did a reinvestigation. So what happened within the

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Speaker 2: first a few months is you would have known when

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Speaker 2: you were there, but there's a certain group of investigators

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Speaker 2: there at come and call it cold case. You want

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Speaker 2: to go the unsolved homicide cold case. Everyone knows what

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Speaker 2: that is. Cold who just knew that it was You

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Speaker 2: know that knew and were prepared to dig for exhibits

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Speaker 2: long thought to have been destroyed, which would have been

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Speaker 2: perfectly within policy at that time because you can't keep

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Speaker 2: the billions of exhibits always collected, but were prepared to

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Speaker 2: do the grunt work, which was literally dig and in

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Speaker 2: a way defy exhibit officers that said, no, it's not

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Speaker 2: on our list, it's not.

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Speaker 1: Here, and breaking that down. That's just to give people

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Speaker 1: a sense of what we're talking about here. Quite often

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Speaker 1: that's going to some dusty room and brushing the dust

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Speaker 1: and cobwebs off and going through old boxes and looking

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Speaker 1: for bits and pieces. Yes, that really is. It's a painstaking,

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Speaker 1: dirty job.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because it's from an era where the term DNA,

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Speaker 2: the idea of it, the concept of it, was alien.

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Speaker 2: So we've got to remember it's at a time when

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Speaker 2: no one knew that in the future it was possible.

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Speaker 2: DNA wasn't readily available to law enforcement till the nineties

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Speaker 2: in fact.

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Speaker 1: And so for an exhibit, those old exhibits, if you well,

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Speaker 1: we've got a photograph of it, do we need to

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Speaker 1: care like it because there's no forensic value retaining this

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Speaker 1: in the exhibit room.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and blood would you get a blood group that was?

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Speaker 1: That? Was it?

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Speaker 2: So then get rid of the bloodied exhibit. So Matt,

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Speaker 2: who was one of those senior constables you worked with, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: say soon, Matt Heffnan.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to attack him, So I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I always.

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Speaker 2: Think it's up to the individual to want to be named.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he's in public anyway. But anyway, Matt Hello, So,

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Speaker 2: and he was one of the ones that was just

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Speaker 2: ready to do the work, the hands and work relentlessly.

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Speaker 2: He did find within So we started in July twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: In October, he's been digging and digging and he gets

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Speaker 2: to the areas of the Sydney Police Center and he finds,

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Speaker 2: of course, the damp, smelly bags keeps going in some

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Speaker 2: dark corner and he sees the ripped corner of a

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Speaker 2: bag that had the word I don't quote me on it,

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Speaker 2: but Jehovah or some such so related to bombing I've

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Speaker 2: just mentioned. So then in there he found cardboard and

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Speaker 2: carpet that was not from the bombing, that was from

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Speaker 2: a break and enter that it occurred at that Jehovah's

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Speaker 2: Witness temple the week prior to it. And the scientific

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Speaker 2: officers of the day who were the ones going to

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Speaker 2: each scene too, mostly they just thought it's worth grabbing,

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Speaker 2: didn't know what they could do with it. It's worth grabbing,

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Speaker 2: and it could have been destroyed within policy, it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: We tested that, and around those few months after we'd started,

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Speaker 2: we did get a result, which was the blood on

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Speaker 2: the carpet belonged to the father of a woman known

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Speaker 2: as Trudy. So we went to Trudy and her father

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Speaker 2: was Leonard John Warwick.

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Speaker 1: Okay, remember that name.

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Speaker 2: So this is a good time to say, because a

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Speaker 2: lot of people think and a lot of shows can

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Speaker 2: suggest that finding DNA is the bill and end all

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Speaker 2: we worked for it. It was at least another eighteen

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Speaker 2: months after that. And remember that was from one offense,

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Speaker 2: and not even the offense, but just the location.

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Speaker 1: I think break that down because I think the due

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Speaker 1: credit for yourself and your team that worked on it.

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Speaker 1: That is by no means a set of facts that

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Speaker 1: you can present to the court. Because DNA was found

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Speaker 1: from a break and enter in a place that was

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Speaker 1: blown up a week later. It's yes, at points, perhaps

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Speaker 1: you can place some weight on that, pointing you in

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Speaker 1: the direction, but that's not the entry value on that side.

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Speaker 2: No, it's it's not. Nor was I going to be

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Speaker 2: satisfied with the because I was convinced the offences were linked.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't going to be satisfied with charging with one

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Speaker 2: offense and saying well, at least we got exactly so,

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Speaker 2: so what then then happened? It is just a very good, focused,

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Speaker 2: small team that I was merciless with in that they're

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Speaker 2: all very motivated and developed expertise in areas. So we

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Speaker 2: had a bomber, So Mel was a bomber. She could

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Speaker 2: have built bombs for us. She had to learn it

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Speaker 2: as a layperson because it was always well, is it

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Speaker 2: possible for that for that to happen? We you know,

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Speaker 2: others are building rapport with witnesses who were much older, forgetful,

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Speaker 2: not willing to be involved in something that had been

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Speaker 2: you know, promised a solution earlier, and it had never

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Speaker 2: come that all these nuanced are necessary approaches, including what

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Speaker 2: we didn't find in the one hundred and fifty three archived

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Speaker 2: boxes from the previous investigation was a complete set of

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Speaker 2: family law call transcripts. So where it all came together

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Speaker 2: was you know how I'm pretty good on paper?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh no, you're very good on paper.

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Speaker 2: And you know how irritatingly good I am with small details? Yes,

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Speaker 2: So I determined to write up the evidence, every bit,

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Speaker 2: and I formed a document. It ended up being one

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Speaker 2: hundred and ten pages long.

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Speaker 1: And the listens he is sometimes a slight obsession helped

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Speaker 1: an investigation, but yes.

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Speaker 2: So the document, which ended up being an aid memoir

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Speaker 2: for the Department of Public Prosecutions, was fed by the

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Speaker 2: experts that my team had developed.

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Speaker 1: And can we just break that down, because I think

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Speaker 1: our listeners are interested in the dynamics of investigations. But

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Speaker 1: going through and we talked in one of the earlier

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Speaker 1: episodes about little things are important, but when you actually documented,

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Speaker 1: I often when I was stuck on an investigation, I

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Speaker 1: type it down. Okay, if I think this person has

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Speaker 1: done this crime, I'm going to type up a set

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Speaker 1: of facts and have a look at it, stare at

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Speaker 1: it and see, Okay, what's in there? But going through

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Speaker 1: in that infinite detail that you went it helps understand

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Speaker 1: what you've got because you can't. You can't retain all

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Speaker 1: that information in your brain precisely.

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Speaker 2: Plus, it's no use even if you can retain it

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Speaker 2: in your brain. It's not about you. It's about you

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Speaker 2: convincing what you can present. Yes, well, convincing your hierarchy,

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Speaker 2: which was necessary in this case. Beyond that the prosecutors

380
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Speaker 2: that there's a worthy case for them to be involved

381
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Speaker 2: in an invent So yes, writing up we shared that

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Speaker 2: that approach absolutely essential.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think I learned a little bit from you

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Speaker 1: on that in investigations, because you're always about put it

385
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Speaker 1: down in writing. And this happened, that happened, blah blah blaheah,

386
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Speaker 1: put it down in writing. I learned something, and I

387
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Speaker 1: tried to pass out on the people too.

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Speaker 2: And it gives you clarity in your own mind. And

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Speaker 2: is it is it convincing in writing to any any

390
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Speaker 2: other relevant party to read essential. So that was my

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Speaker 2: approach to it was a work in progress. It's not

392
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Speaker 2: like we got to the inter and of that. I

393
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: just whipped this up. It grew and developed and was

394
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Speaker 2: a very unwilldy document to make chronological or because because

395
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Speaker 2: it was fed by our discoveries.

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Speaker 1: And going back again. I just want to break it down.

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Speaker 1: You said your team, how you drove them? You did

398
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Speaker 1: drive them. I saw saw what was going on, and

399
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Speaker 1: you need on investigation sometimes the breakthroughs. And take this

400
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Speaker 1: as a compliment, but I firmly believe it. You need

401
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: people just driving, pushing, pushing, pushing, because the ones, the

402
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: difficult ones to crack are the ones that people go

403
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Speaker 1: above and beyond. And I know you and your team

404
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: went above and beyond.

405
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Speaker 2: It really was a huge effort, and I really appreciate

406
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: my team bearing with it. Some a couple went by

407
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Speaker 2: the wayside. It was too intense, but the ones that remained,

408
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: and that wonderful humor you get with the intensity I

409
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: put on them and all my teams. It's apparently called

410
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Speaker 2: being pommeorized, So I think that was quite I think.

411
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Speaker 1: You pick up on what that might mean terrified. I

412
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Speaker 1: recommend that, but no, you've got to drive it. And

413
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Speaker 1: I'm big on this, and this is where the passion

414
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: comes into it, Like if people fall by the way side,

415
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: we'll get out of there. Like this is a homicide investigation,

416
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Speaker 1: and I know it doesn't make me popular, but if

417
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Speaker 1: people are not up to it, don't do it. You're

418
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Speaker 1: not a conscript. Don't strutt around calling yourself a homicide

419
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: the ticket unless you're prepared to pay the price. Yes, yes,

420
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Speaker 1: and I know you share that, and I know you

421
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Speaker 1: paid the price. And your team that you got working harmoniously,

422
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Speaker 1: the ones that stuck through with it.

423
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Speaker 2: Yes, And even just what I found useful there was

424
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Speaker 2: there were one or two experienced doubters, so experience in

425
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: that they could their opinion could be relied upon. But

426
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Speaker 2: they doubted that Leonard Warwick had committed all the crime.

427
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 2: So I found it very useful to task them with

428
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Speaker 2: being the devil's advocate. Yes, and solely the devil's advocate.

429
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Speaker 2: They weren't involved in any of the other aspects. Devil's

430
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: advocate on the other suspects which the origin investigation had

431
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: dug up a lot somewhere like there was one standout

432
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: for for the Watson matter, the one where Missus Watson

433
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: she died, absolutely stand out. He'd been part of the

434
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 2: construction crew for the for the apartment blog. He'd been

435
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: in the military, some red flags, Yeah, and he'd come

436
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: out and said how much he hates hates them all.

437
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: But so, but your real good use of Devil's adivocate

438
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: because you if you don't do it yourself, the defense

439
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: are going to the defense are going to bring up

440
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: these things.

441
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: So it's a good way to use use stuff. And

442
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: we're talking here at the management level of an investigation,

443
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: which which we don't often talk. We more get into

444
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty of it. But from a management point

445
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: of view, I called them the what ifs. I'd be saying,

446
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: this happened, but what if it's that person? Yeah, it's

447
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: a good way. Okay, we'll back it up, put it in. Yeah. Ok.

448
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: They're the doubters and the what if types in investigations.

449
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 1: If it plays out the way you said or believe

450
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: it's playing out, they go, well, I just thought they'd

451
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: raise it, and if it doesn't, then they strut around

452
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: going oh well, I said, yeah, So it's a good

453
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: way to for anyone listening that might end up running

454
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: a homicide investigation for the doubters or what ifs give

455
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: them the task to approve it.

456
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: Yes, it's important and can be useful comment for people

457
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: to make. Everyone should contribute. Every good leader encourages and

458
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: even makes people contribute. But so many jobs get bogged

459
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: down in that conversation. It doesn't go further than that

460
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: type of conversation. Someone's got to come through with clarity.

461
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: What are your the best prospects here? We're going for

462
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: them even and it's a term you use, you even

463
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: should get tunnel vision on good ones until that tunnel

464
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: vision is not justified. With limited resources, you must concentrate

465
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: your efforts. That's a way of concentrating your efforts.

466
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: So with.

467
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: Your comment earlier about you know, isn't it surprising it

468
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: wasn't solved earlier? I might share that too, though I

469
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: know they worked very hard and in very different circumstances,

470
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: just with information management and being able to recall.

471
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about card system as distinct from a

472
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: computer and and I and everything else that goes on

473
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: the plat.

474
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: But what I discovered was through close reading of the

475
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: thousands of pages of family court transcripts lots of things,

476
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: But this is just a demonstration, which is so Justice Opus,

477
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: who was Leonard John Morrick's first victim. He had he

478
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: Warwick was before the family Court because his wife Andrea

479
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: wanted to one divorce and property settle. So Justice Opus

480
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: was the first justice trying to sort through these applications.

481
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: The orders become very complex and it's very tedious to

482
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: read because there's I think you've had court matters with

483
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: family called and they're quite convoluted, wouldn't you agree? Am

484
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: I triggering? Are there any triggers happening here?

485
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: So?

486
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: So Justice Opus would make multiple orders. So and just

487
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: an example one was after after the parties have just

488
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: putting in Lamor's terms, after the parties have done a

489
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: b c dn E, then a period of seven days

490
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: can pass until all the all the documents are exchanged

491
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: for instance. That's the type of thing. So that can

492
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: happen over six, eight, ten separate hearing dates. So I

493
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: got those transcripts and I remember sitting there counting after

494
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: all the putting them in sequence, working out what this

495
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: process of and then the seven day thing, which is

496
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: counting the date from when the order was made or

497
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: when the last seventh step was made, so counting the

498
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: days specifically around Opus's orders, and the day that I

499
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: came up with on my fingers was the day that

500
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: Opus was shot dead out his door. Now I'm really

501
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: hopeless at maths, hopeless, but I managed to do that.

502
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: I doubted it. It was so clear and such heavy evidence,

503
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: heavy good evidence. I thought I've missed something, and I

504
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: went back, went back, but no, I hadn't missed it.

505
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: Thoroughness of it that that's a huge coincidence, isn't it.

506
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: Then you're looking at it hadn't been discovered before.

507
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. These are the type of things that sort of

508
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: kicking and you think, okay, well maybe I am heading

509
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: in the direction because you do doubt yourself when you're

510
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: running the investigations like that, Like there's a lot of

511
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: pressure to get it right.

512
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: Yes, and you should doubt yourself.

513
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

514
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: It's this tricky balance, isn't it, Confidence, clarity, doubt, And

515
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: you don't have it in there.

516
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: I've to say sometimes I've had investigations where above have

517
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: interfered and I've been frustrated because of the report and

518
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: have to answer all this, But by the time it

519
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: comes to court, I'm glad they interfered, because I've got

520
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: everything prepares and that. But even and it's a robust

521
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: Fieled working homicide investigations. Everyone's got an opinion. And I

522
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: was not against other people having opinions because that helped

523
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: me check myself if I was heading off in the

524
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: direction and someone has said something. But yeah, I find

525
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: that fascinating the amount of detail. I know how thorough

526
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: you are, but they're the type of things that can

527
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: sometimes get investigations across the line.

528
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: So will we skip forward to the result.

529
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: Well, I remember reading the brief was something about a clock.

530
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: Was quite interesting.

531
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: Yes, So we ended up so the whole so that

532
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: all the elements. It was a oh goodness. So what's

533
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: that term a circumstantial? That that term.

534
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: You have how long you've been there, that's where.

535
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: You have direct or circumstances circumstantial, But so many elements

536
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: like so, when we looked at the photographs of search

537
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: warrants conducted on Leonard Warrick, because he was interest, he

538
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: was a personal interest in a pool of them. We

539
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: looked at the photographs that had been taken during search

540
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: warrants at his home, and then we conducted our own

541
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: search warrant, and we found in both the same brand

542
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: clock that had been used to time one or two

543
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: of the device.

544
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: It was a breakdown of the components in the clock

545
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: that that's from the bombing. That's what they see, is

546
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: that's that's my understanding.

547
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, to know it was a certain brand clock.

548
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: And then yes, the same yes, the same was found

549
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: in his possession.

550
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: And see this type of evidence, because when you go

551
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: to court, people are going to attack your integrity, attack everything.

552
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 1: But those type of evidence, that type of evidence really

553
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: stands up. Well, you know, how have we created that

554
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: there's a phato of the clock. This is a component

555
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: that was found in the bomb that is in that clock. Yes,

556
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: that's fascinating it.

557
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all those, all those elements came together. None

558
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: of them which is the nature of circumstantial briefs. None

559
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: of them by themselves are the home run. But in

560
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: combination and we uh, you know, the elements come together

561
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: and they're often better briefs than direct briefs because it

562
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 2: stands alone. So when we did so, I knew towards

563
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: the end, when I just knew we had him, I

564
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 2: also knew we didn't need to interview him we prepared

565
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: an interview, but we didn't need him to say anything

566
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: truth or lies. We did not need anything from him

567
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: because the circumstantial brief was so good.

568
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: I remember the interviewing because you did approach me at

569
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: one stage and said, look, this is building up. I'd

570
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: like you, would it be possible, would you be interested

571
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: in interviewing him in resources to do what you do

572
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: in an interview room. I was so excited. I spent

573
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: the whole weekend. If you're eating up on the brief

574
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: and thinking, I know how I'm going to approach this lunatic.

575
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: But we had a discussion. You said you want to run,

576
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: and I agree with you. You wanted to run it past

577
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: your team if they wanted to have a go at it.

578
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: I think it was more appropriate they had to go

579
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: at it. But I've got to say I was disappointed

580
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: because I wanted to have a crack at him. Yes,

581
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: I think it would have been a fascinating that I think.

582
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: Of a discussion, fascinating to watch, and you had always

583
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: some fearless reputation as an interviewer. In fact, I've had

584
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: it in mind if I get a chance to us

585
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: or anything, it would have been what are your tips. Yeah,

586
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: whether that's now later.

587
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: Of cause my passion. You know, that was my go

588
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: to place and my fun place, and I think you

589
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: brought me on one other investigation and I still remember

590
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 1: what I did in that interview room, and I'm so proud.

591
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: It was all above board. There was nothing untoward that

592
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: just jammed up a solicitor and these client big time.

593
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: And the amount of preparation you have to do before

594
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: the interview. You have got to prepare yourself because knowledge

595
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: is power in the interview room. So you need to

596
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: know so much detail about that person. So if they

597
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: take you off on a tangent or whatever, you can

598
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: bring them back. You've got to have a strategy. You've

599
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: got to be flexible in your thinking with the strategy.

600
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: Sometimes i'd prepare a couple of strategies. He's even going

601
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: to talk, he's going to deny it all this and

602
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: create the atmosphere. It can be one of intimidation. I

603
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: know we're not their threat, promise or in if someone's intimidated,

604
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: because I'm professional and thorough and I walk in a suit,

605
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: all my papers lined up and ready to go, and

606
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: the interview room is my place. So if they feel

607
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: intimidated by that. That's not you can't argue that they

608
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: feel intimidated because I'm professional. Well, I'm not doing anything

609
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: wrong being professional. You can also play and again strategies

610
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: for interview the bumbling detective you come in there, the

611
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: disinterested detective and just yeah, yeah, whatever. You're listening to

612
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: everything that's been said. I whether this is a strength

613
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: for a weakness, I don't know. In the interview room,

614
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: some people listen to the word that's spoken, the actual

615
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: word that's been spoken. I'm looking at the reaction from

616
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: the person when I'm asking the question, what's the reaction.

617
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm getting more from what's not said than what is said.

618
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's worked for me in the interview rooms.

619
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 1: What I would say about the interview room is how

620
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: taxing it is. I would come out from an interview

621
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: room and I would just be exhausted. I would be spent,

622
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: leave nothing else. So I give everything I've got, so

623
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: just the intensity, and I would honestly feel sick before

624
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: I went into an interview room because of the pressure

625
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: that you're putting on yourself.

626
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: A similar feeling here, Am I doing that to you?

627
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how nervous. I was when I

628
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: you need a break, the break. But yeah, those little tips.

629
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: But the other, probably the biggest tip, is you've got

630
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: to be yourself in the interview room. I've seen people

631
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: I've tried the copy people their style and it doesn't

632
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: work because it's not me. I've seen people tried the

633
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: copy my style. It doesn't work. You've got to be

634
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: genuine self in the interview room.

635
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: That really, that's such an interesting last point. I don't

636
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: think I've heard you say that, but it makes so

637
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: much sense. I was not Interviewing was never my strength.

638
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: I had other strengths, and I always figured it was

639
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 2: because some of the crimes are so hideous. I could

640
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: not be in the room with any respect for the

641
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: person as a human being. And I'm sure I radiated that,

642
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: and that was being myself, whereas you would feel the

643
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: repulsion and the anger on behalf of the community and

644
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: the victims and things the same. But you, if you're

645
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: able to cover it up, I much more.

646
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: Suss well, you break something down, that's very interesting there,

647
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: I would cover it up. I've sat opposite some despicable

648
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: human beings and I didn't give an ounce of judgment.

649
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: There and I'm just saying, yeah, we're just having a chat,

650
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: and they can be talking, you know, we're talking murderous

651
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: pedophiles saying the most horrific things, but they wouldn't get

652
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: a reaction out of me. Internally, I'd be feeling it,

653
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: but on the face they wouldn't see it. So a

654
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: bit of poker. But yeah, anyway, Sorry I digressed, but

655
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: that was an exciting time. I was so excited that

656
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: weekend thinking because I remember it from my early days

657
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,479
Speaker 1: in ployees and it's such a significant job. I would

658
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: have sat loved to sit down opposite him in an

659
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: interview room.

660
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: But because he had actually never to an interview. In

661
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is he had been interviewed,

662
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 2: as in arrested, taken for interview, he'd been put before

663
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: the coroner at a hearing while it was still unsolved.

664
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: He only ever, he often wouldn't confirm even his name.

665
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: If he spoke, it was to confirm his name. Yeah,

666
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: so yes, the challenge between you and him.

667
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: You would have had been, well, if we're talking the

668
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: way to interview, you've got to think outside the square

669
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: a little bit, like if you go in there. I

670
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: was thinking I'm going to rattle him by being as

671
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: strange as he is. That would have been that would

672
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: have been my gay game. Yeah, yeah, that was I

673
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: was thinking. But anyway, we digress. It must have been

674
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: so eighteen months you worked on it. How did it

675
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 1: feel when you knew when when you got to that point,

676
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: when all the all the ducks had lined up and

677
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: you gan to arresting. How did you feel?

678
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: And your team felt really really excited in a calm

679
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 2: way because it was just a done deal. So by that,

680
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: I mean I had complete faith in the material we

681
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: had put together. Resting him was a bit of a challenge.

682
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: He certainly was older, but.

683
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: He grabbed him.

684
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: They yes, so that that decision you have to make,

685
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: as in our positions, where.

686
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: To arrest dangerous exactly.

687
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: Booby traps, guns, anything. So the gym. I chose the

688
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: gym because he had developed a habit of going at

689
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: a certain time, so we had reliable geography that we

690
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: could set up securely. He had an affection for a

691
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: particular treadmill, so we knew precisely which one in the group,

692
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: and we knew to keep the other treadmills occupied by

693
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 2: people who could handle handle things. If it got out

694
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 2: of control. And yeah, so that was a successful day.

695
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 2: There were over eighty police involved. That was after the

696
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: aid memoirs I've described. It was put in front of

697
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 2: a legal panel, which is unusual, but because of the

698
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: size of the job, I guess the status of the victims,

699
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: but also the the nature of it being unsolved for

700
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 2: so long. For the new Southwest Police Force. My hierarchy,

701
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: which was also your hierarchy, didn't want to risk failure.

702
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 2: So I was more than happy to do that. I

703
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: understood why I had been asked to do that, and

704
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: it had the green light. So yeah, it was a

705
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: good day.

706
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, great day.

707
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: When Matt Heffernan and Matt Russell, so Matt Russell was

708
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: my detective sergeant on the job, a great rapport builder

709
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: with witnesses and things, so they were they were doing

710
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: the rest, of course, and when they've put their their

711
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 2: common arm on Warwick and taken his sports bag, his

712
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: first words and only words, were there are no explosives

713
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: in it, which.

714
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: Of course I would have had so much fun with him.

715
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: He's not a man you trust his words. So we

716
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: checked it and the Bob squad's standing by and I

717
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: don't think so.

718
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: I want to ask this because when you work on

719
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: the investigation of that intensity and that, did you feel

720
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like, from a personal point of view, did

721
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: you feel excitement after the arrest, did you feel pressure

722
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: off or what? Did you feel numb? Because sometimes you

723
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: have different reactions when you get a result with investigations.

724
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: Yes, no, no, it was I do know what you

725
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 2: mean with this one. It was very satisfying. We had

726
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: and I think I said at the time, we had

727
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: worked in the shadows for a very long time. We

728
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: weren't going out saying, look what we're doing. And the

729
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 2: primary reason, two reasons is we didn't want him to

730
00:43:58,840 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: get active again.

731
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: But equally your place get blown up. That's important. That

732
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: was sensible.

733
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: But the victims and their families had been through so much,

734
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: the highs and loads of big, big investigation, lots of

735
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: heavy investigators, it's going to be successful, and were let

736
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: down terribly. It was forty years nearly to the day

737
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: before it was entirely resolved. So we were working in

738
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: the shadows. Yes, for safety too. We didn't tell them

739
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 2: we were working on it again because I wasn't going

740
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: to promise something and then not deliver. So it was great.

741
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: What was great was at that time the day of

742
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: the rest, which of course started been letting them know gently.

743
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: The big satisfaction was the comfort we were able to

744
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: give them, Yes, that they hadn't had for such a

745
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 2: long long time. That was really significant. Heavy weight was off.

746
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, and he was convicted. Ah.

747
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 2: Yes, So he toyed with the family court earlier through

748
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: his crimes over years. His own family court matter might

749
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: have been slightly shorter than yours. He's went for seven years.

750
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 2: He's went for seven years. He was very good at it.

751
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: So when he got arrested, he you know, a number

752
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: of things happened, of course, but part of it was

753
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 2: he manipulated the court system again, this time the criminal court,

754
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court. It took five years after arrest and

755
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: a twenty two month trial for him to be found guilty.

756
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 2: It was judged only for him to be found guilty,

757
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: and he was sentenced for three murders. He got life,

758
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 2: So three life sentences plus if we add up the

759
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: rest two hundred and fifty or so years of for

760
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: the connected incidental crimes. Yeah. So well, it was a

761
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: good That was another good day.

762
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: It was a good day. But I want I was

763
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: proud of being part of the New South Wales Police

764
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: when that was that case was solved them. Very proud

765
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: of you and your team on what you did because

766
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: I saw how hard you worked on it. But and

767
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: I what I like about it too. It sends out

768
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: a message to all these people that think they've got

769
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: a way with crimes that hey, there might be people

770
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: just like you and your team working on them and

771
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: they never know when they're going to get the knock

772
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: on the door or get their their training in the morning.

773
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: Did you let him finish his training session or just

774
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: grab him off off the running machine? But no, that

775
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: was that was I think all the good elements of

776
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: what cold case and unsolved homicide and reinvestigation should be

777
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: about came into play. So full credit and it was significant.

778
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: Wasn't like I can't remember a crime of that magnitude

779
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: and attacking the justice system?

780
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: Yes, well, it was described, including by the Prime Minister

781
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 2: but other other people as the most significant case of

782
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: domestic terrorism attacking our democracy and system of justice. That's

783
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 2: they're the terms being used over that forty years.

784
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,959
Speaker 1: And what like with each investigation it takes a little

785
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: piece of out of you or whatever? What price did

786
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 1: you pay in that investigation?

787
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: Could I before that? And I want to are you

788
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 2: curious what his motivation was?

789
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, take over the podcast is podcast. But that's

790
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: a good question.

791
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 2: It's I'm going to say topical now, but it always

792
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: has been and should be. It was domestic violence related.

793
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: It was as straightforward as he was a violent boyfriend

794
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: to Andrea, a violent husband to Andrea. He also had

795
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: psychopathic tendencies, but so many do.

796
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: He was a fireman, wasn't he?

797
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: And that was the other part. He was a full

798
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: time fireman, so had the appearance of normality, but a

799
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: brute And it's I don't even know how to express it,

800
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 2: but clearly it's an example of how if domestic violence

801
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: isn't properly attended to or stopped eliminated would be good,

802
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: then these things, these further crimes, things can grow out

803
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 2: of it and it's all bad. And yes, so that

804
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: you know, its very essence is domestic.

805
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: Violence, and the essence of domestic violence. Correct me if

806
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, But from my understanding of it, the bombing

807
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: that the Jehovah's Witness Church was because that's where his

808
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: ex wife attended that church. Yes, well he is his

809
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: because they were they were offering her shelter.

810
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: Yes, so his wife's sister asked members of that was

811
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: her congregation to help move Andrea away to safety. And

812
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 2: and they did that generosity of spirit, which normal good

813
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: people do. They moved covertly, so secretly, and and she

814
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: was she was just sick of the violence. And yes,

815
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: he got to learn, not specifically that they had helped,

816
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 2: but he's he learned a lot enough just just to

817
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 2: target them in case they had helped. So it really

818
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 2: is a mindset is incomprehensible.

819
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: It is incomprehensible that put a bomb in the church

820
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: with one hundred people in there. That the and I

821
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: remember when your team were looking at the investigation before

822
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: you took it on, they were getting statements from eighteen

823
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: month old child at the time had cut from the explosion.

824
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: It could have know how many people he could have

825
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 1: killed with that, but he just didn't.

826
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: Yes, he didn't care. And I fully expect that he

827
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: thought there would be more fatalities. It really is just

828
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 2: how the bomb is packed. And he whilst we didn't

829
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: know it was him at that time, we were we

830
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: were learning that the bombs were more amateurish than professional.

831
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So the damage wasn't yes a question than

832
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: I think people would be wanting to ask this, So

833
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: I've got my thoughts on it. But why those major

834
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: offenses could years? Again? What did he get up to

835
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: post those offenses? What was he what was his life

836
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: did he have? Was there any other episodes of violence

837
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: or things that he.

838
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: So when we arrested him, he was in the company

839
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 2: of his new family, wife, children, So he the passage

840
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: of time and it being unsolved for so long had

841
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: allowed him to live a full life, reap the benefits

842
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: of a government pension, and pretend he was a normal,

843
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: good person.

844
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does tie into what's going on now,

845
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: But that's the extremes that people go to when the

846
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: emotion kicks him. So what was the price you paid

847
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: personally for that?

848
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: It was a very heavy period because it was also

849
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: the period that I'd been given the Scott Johnson matter, Right, Okay,

850
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of sleeping in the car

851
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 2: in the basement and not going home and keeping clear

852
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: focus on both high profile jobs.

853
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, you basically had to forego your private life and

854
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: just concentrate on work for those times. Yes, yes, Okay,

855
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: Now that's fairly heavy topic, so let's delve into another

856
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: fun fact. I think it's fun. It's funny in some regards,

857
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: it was a bit confronting in others. Just set the scene.

858
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: We've been living together for a long time, we've broken up,

859
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: we'd both I think we'd both remarried at this particular

860
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: point in time, or you had remarried. I was getting

861
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: remarried and I was approached by some writers to do

862
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: an Underbelly TV series, Underbelly Badness. They approached me and

863
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: senior Police actually pointed them to me, which is quite

864
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: i wright think because it worked against my career for

865
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: the rest of my time. But Senior Police pointed them

866
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: there and they wanted to do a story about they'd

867
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: done the Melbourne one, they'd done The King's Cross, and

868
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 1: they said, we want to do a story about policing,

869
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: but following the police. The police will be the main characters,

870
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: and we know the job that you're running, and we'd

871
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: be really interested in covering you in the series. And

872
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: they asked me about my personal life and I said

873
00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: I was divorced, and they said that's good. And I said,

874
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: I had a real relationship with someone I work with

875
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: and I can see I'm writing notes. That's great, blah

876
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 1: blah blah. And so the series was who was it young?

877
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 2: It was you, that poor woman.

878
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: I think, as history dictates, it was you young. So we'd

879
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: had that, and the relationship was out in public and

880
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: all that. We've been there, done that, and then I

881
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: come to you and I think you've just been recently

882
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 1: remarried or about to get married. I said, look, Underbelly

883
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: are going to do a story about my career, and

884
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: you have gone that's good like that, And I said,

885
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: but they want to talk about my private life. Are

886
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: you happy for you to be included in my private life?

887
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: I can't remember the response I got, but it was

888
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: not this similar to the stare that you're giving me now,

889
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: and it was basically whatever you said. It was more

890
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: eloquent than this, but I interpreted as what the fuck

891
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: I think you said? Look, I'm not giving permission, but

892
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: I will sit down and speak with the writers and

893
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: just see what they're going to cover. It was an

894
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: interesting experience for both of us, wasn't it. Oh?

895
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 2: Yes, it was. So My irritation was that you know

896
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: how even today, how Australian society likes their heroes to

897
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: be male and they have to have their male heroes

898
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: have a love interest. So I was reduced to a

899
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: love interest. That was quite irritating.

900
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: But it was very brave of you because you did

901
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 1: say yes.

902
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 2: I did say yes, and I even gave permission for

903
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: my name to be used. And I was asked at

904
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: work why on earth, you know, why would you do that?

905
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: And Chase, I don't have any shame over these things.

906
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 2: And it was fun, but goodness, certainly upsets and male

907
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: egos in your peer group, did it not?

908
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: Oh yes? Oh yes? I think after that, yeah, I

909
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 1: had had a target on my back, not the not

910
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,959
Speaker 1: the and I put it this way, and if you're listening,

911
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: they don't care. The genuine detectives that all did hard

912
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: work would come up and say that's great. It was

913
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: the ones that didn't do any work but had the

914
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: shits that they weren't featured in the TV series. But

915
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: from our point of view, I thought it was very

916
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 1: gracious of you to say yes, you'll do it. And

917
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: it was quite funny. I remember the first episode like

918
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: people were saying, we'll come around and watch it with

919
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: you or whatever, and I said, no, I'll watch it

920
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: on my own. And then watching our private life play

921
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: out on TV. I think I was in the fetal position,

922
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: sucking my thumb. You make it stop it.

923
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was yeah, very sort of unbalancing or is

924
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: that a term or something quite confronting.

925
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: And then watching our relationship break down, not only our

926
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: relationship start on the show, and then the relationship breakdown.

927
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was even more hilarious.

928
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: Well, I was sad bad. I don't know about you.

929
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I was crying, but I was upset.

930
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: I was crying, okay, But at the end of the

931
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 2: day sort of harmless fun.

932
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: Really, it was harmless fun. And when you look at it,

933
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,399
Speaker 1: the actress that played you absolutely nailed you and got

934
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,760
Speaker 1: your voice down. Pat, I don't know how that came about.

935
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 2: But and my walk, I don't know what you had

936
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 2: said about my walk, but she perfected it.

937
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 1: Yes, she did portray you very well. And I do

938
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: remember after the first episode was played, and this is

939
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: when you wonder what goes on in a homicide inspectors meeting,

940
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: high level meeting. All the inspectors from homicide gather with

941
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: the commander of homicide. It was Monday morning or the

942
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning after the first episode had played out, and

943
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: we sit round the table and there's all the inspectors

944
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: there and the commanders talking about the cases. And then

945
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: I think it was someone piped up stuff that we're

946
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 1: not talking about that. What about these two yes?

947
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, goodness, so yeah, And.

948
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: I know these problems with recruiting police and that at

949
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: the moment, and we should touch on that, touch on

950
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: that briefly. But look, what can happen when you join

951
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: the police relationship play out on a high rating national

952
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: TV show and sit there and be embarrassed.

953
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 2: And you get to see the world as well.

954
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: What about that trip to Paris? You can't you can't

955
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: make this stuff up. And this is the life of

956
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: being in a relationship to homicide detectives. I remember you

957
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: always Paris was your thing. You loved love going to Paris,

958
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: and you're always talking about and I think you had

959
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: a trip planned to Paris. One of the benefits that

960
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: we got when we were in the police working together

961
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: is that occasionally we had to escort prisoners to overseas destinations.

962
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: I think we did Fiji, Shanghai, Hong Kong, and then

963
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: a trip to Paris came up. I'll tell you my

964
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: side of the story. I've been on call, been called

965
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: out to a bad murder, a murder of Jaden Marsh,

966
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: a young young child, and basically been up for forty

967
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: eight hours. Was at headquarters swearing out a listening device

968
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: mid morning Friday. I had the kids for that weekend,

969
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: hadn't slept for forty eight hours. And you phone me,

970
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: it's so normal, normal week to get a sense of

971
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 1: the chaos. And you phone me, and I'm with Jason,

972
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: Jason Overs who's been on the podcast, and good mate,

973
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: my partner in work for years.

974
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: You Fhaine, non intimate partner.

975
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: We just could never get that working. He's you'll fhone

976
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: me and I am just stressed to the eyeballs and

977
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: I'm signing out for David's and I know it's just

978
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: going to be a chaos over the weekend. And you go, Jubilan,

979
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 1: We've got an offer. Do you want to go to

980
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: Paris for the weekend, And of course I want to

981
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: go to Paris for the weekend, but I'm a little

982
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: bit busy at the moment, having slept, and I think

983
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: I said no to you, and I hung up, and

984
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: Jason goes, who was that, and I said it was Pam.

985
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: We've got one of those extraditions to Paris for the weekend,

986
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: but there is no way I can go. We're signing out,

987
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: listening to vice warrants. We've got to install them. I've

988
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: got to win interview the suspect in a couple of

989
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: days and he's gone, you're mad, why don't you When

990
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: he took me into it, I've phoned you back and

991
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: said stop, I'll go from my point of view. I

992
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: then had to finish signing out the warrants, plan everything,

993
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: Drive back to the central coast, pick up my change

994
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: of clothes, pick up my passport, take I think it

995
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: was Jake. It was Jake and Jemmet's a swimming swimming

996
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: practice because I have him for the weekend. Phone my

997
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: father and say can you meet me on the highway.

998
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm coming down. Can you look after Jake and Jemmy

999
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: for the weekend? Co ordinate things. I was on the

1000
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: phone the whole time, totally strung out. We get to

1001
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: the airport at about nine o'clock and the prisoner is

1002
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: handed over to us. This mad Frenchman. And remember he

1003
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: was carrying a digitidop that what he had done. He'd

1004
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: come into the airport and flew in sold the AFP

1005
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: officer or one of the work. So they didn't let

1006
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: him in and he had to be escorted back to

1007
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: back to parents. So we get on the plane. I

1008
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: am dead tired. We got the three seats down the

1009
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: back of the plane, put the prisoner near the near

1010
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: the window, and he misbehaved the whole time. I remember

1011
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: there was a stopover at Hong Kong. You had to

1012
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: get off the plane. I wasn't allowed to get off

1013
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: the plane. I had to stay with him. You had

1014
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: to take your passports and Heathrow. Remember at this time,

1015
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd slept for seventy two hours wrestling

1016
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: with him, and he would he would be just elbowing

1017
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: me and just carrying on a true We get the

1018
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: Heathrow airport and the only way we didn't really have

1019
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: any power of those extraditions, did we.

1020
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 2: It was just sort of it was bluff. Yes, it

1021
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: was so we the people who asked us to do

1022
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 2: it knew that.

1023
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he gets off the Heathrow and we've got

1024
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,439
Speaker 1: a three hour stopover and I'm pointing to it because

1025
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 1: he didn't speak English. I'm pointing to the police walking

1026
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: around with guns and pointing at the guns and pointing

1027
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: at him and with his passport, pretending to rip it

1028
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: up and prow it in the bin to try and

1029
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: control it. And he responded saying, he'll settle down by

1030
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 1: if I'd take him in. Remember they had those smoking rooms,

1031
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: a little fishing Yes, yes, I sit there. And then

1032
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: we got to know when we got the Paris. Remember

1033
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: he turned it on at Charles de Gaure Airport and

1034
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: started fighting with us and the friends.

1035
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 2: I got on with him. Fine, I don't know what

1036
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 2: your issue.

1037
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 1: You were asleep in the seat in front. I remember

1038
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: that trip. I was stuck with him the whole time,

1039
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: and can you get the well, here we are. I

1040
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: am totally strung. Anyway, it was a fun trip. And

1041
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: then you got cranky at me because we had to

1042
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: go back because I had to interview the suspect for

1043
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: the murder.

1044
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 2: And only you could do the interview. There wasn't another

1045
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 2: person on the planet who could possibly have done it.

1046
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that interview, and we got a

1047
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: conviction and it was a very important interview. But you

1048
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: said you were just so cranky at me because we

1049
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 1: had to go home a day early from Paris.

1050
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 2: You got your conviction and all I got of my

1051
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 2: holiday might have seemed like worked to you, but that

1052
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 2: was my Paris holiday. Is a photograph of you asleep

1053
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 2: on a park bench, Well, but it's a Parisian park bench,

1054
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: that's the important thing, and I still have that photo.

1055
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: It was a fun trip, but I remember we got

1056
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: back and we were just so tired and we thought, no, no,

1057
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: we can roll in the work, but they were in.

1058
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,439
Speaker 1: We did. We went, and I think the first trip

1059
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: we actually had without the prisoner was to Vietnam, and

1060
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: we're no one to talk to because we didn't have

1061
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,919
Speaker 1: a prisoner between us. But join the police and see

1062
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: the world. It is another another layer of it. But

1063
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 1: it was a fun, fun time.

1064
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 2: It was yeah, yeah, yeah, And we had to do

1065
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 2: things like that. There wasn't you know. We were not

1066
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: as ranked as we became, and you had a family responsibility,

1067
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 2: so we took advantage of anything free that came along.

1068
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, so just take this prison. I think the bloke

1069
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: we took back was that Hong Kong. He was described

1070
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: as Hannibal Lecter. He was one of the nicest blokes

1071
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: I had when he handed over. When he was handed

1072
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: over to us, people going to be careful, be careful,

1073
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: but we got on famously. But yeah, there were fun times. Anyway,

1074
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,959
Speaker 1: we talk some heavy stuff, but there's also some fun

1075
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: times to policing and the chaos and it's not your average,

1076
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: average life, but there's some exciting things that play out.

1077
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 2: Isn't it.

1078
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: Definitely when we get back for part four, we're going

1079
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 1: to continue continue the chat with Pam, but we're going

1080
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: to talk about them something. This is where we better

1081
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: enjoy ourselves now because the Scott Johnson matter that you

1082
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: were heavily involved in, and I think it's fair to

1083
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: say that particular investigation was a tipping point of your

1084
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: career in the New South Wales Police. Yes, so try

1085
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 1: and keep a smile on your face when we get

1086
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: back Apart four, or remind you of some fun memories.

1087
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: But when we come back, we're going to talk about

1088
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: Scott Johnson matter and it's played out very publicly and

1089
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,959
Speaker 1: we'll get insight from Pam's perspective on that job.

1090
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 2: See you then, mm hmm.