WEBVTT - Australia’s definitely-not-secret deal with Nauru has begun

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Back

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty three, Australia's top Court made a landmark

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<v Speaker 1>ruling that it was against the law for the Australian

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<v Speaker 1>government to definitely hold people in immigration detention. That ruling

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<v Speaker 1>had massive implications for our country's border policies. It overturned

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years of precedent and it led to the release

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<v Speaker 1>of people into the community who have been held in

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<v Speaker 1>immigration detention after having their visas canceled but weren't able

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<v Speaker 1>to return to their home country. After that, the Albanesi

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<v Speaker 1>government struck a controversial deal with NIRU worth two point

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<v Speaker 1>five billion dollars. The tiny Islan nation would be paid

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<v Speaker 1>to settle the detainees in exchange for money over a

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<v Speaker 1>thirty year period. This week we learned that the deal

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<v Speaker 1>has now begun and at least one person has now

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<v Speaker 1>been deported to Nheru. Today journalist Denim Saddler on the

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<v Speaker 1>former immigration detainees Australia is now deporting and were the

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<v Speaker 1>Offlating them to Naru is a breach of our legal obligations.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Sunday, November two. This episode was first published in September. Then,

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<v Speaker 1>now let's start with this deal that was signed between

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<v Speaker 1>Australia and NARU. What do we know about it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we first heard about this deal through a

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<v Speaker 2>post on the Home Affairs website about a week ago.

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<v Speaker 2>It was late on a Friday night, basically just saying

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<v Speaker 2>that the Home Affairs Minister had been over there had

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<v Speaker 2>signed a deal that will involve Australia paying Nharu a

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<v Speaker 2>sum of money in exchange for a group of asylum

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<v Speaker 2>seekers that are currently in Australia receiving thirty year visas

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<v Speaker 2>to go live and stay live in the community in Naheru.

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<v Speaker 2>So at the time it was announced, we didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of information about it. The actual deal,

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<v Speaker 2>the memorandum of understanding wasn't revealed to the public and

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<v Speaker 2>we saw kind of ministers and the Prime Minister batting

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<v Speaker 2>away questions about it.

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<v Speaker 3>Why is so much secrecy around that deal?

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<v Speaker 4>Hardly secret? You're just asking me about it on National

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<v Speaker 4>do you know.

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<v Speaker 3>I will contest that there was no release put out.

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<v Speaker 3>It was quite little website. Well, well, okay, it was

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<v Speaker 3>out there and it was wasn't easy to find.

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<v Speaker 2>Albanezy was asked about and I kind of just talked about

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<v Speaker 2>complexities and details without revealing much.

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<v Speaker 4>There's complexities and detail here, including the number of people

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<v Speaker 4>who go. There's arrange of provisions as part of.

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<v Speaker 2>It, particularly in terms of how many people were going

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<v Speaker 2>to be taken by NHRU.

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<v Speaker 3>So do they get the four hundred million even if

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<v Speaker 3>they take no asylum seecrets?

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<v Speaker 4>There are arrangements in place, Patricia, And we have an

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<v Speaker 4>arrangement between.

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<v Speaker 2>How the payments would actually work and whether the payments

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<v Speaker 2>were kind of based on how many people were there.

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<v Speaker 3>Like does it just keep going or is it a timeframe?

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<v Speaker 4>No, it doesn't, Patricia, And it's an arrangement between our

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<v Speaker 4>government and then No Room government.

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<v Speaker 3>But will you make the details of the payments clear

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<v Speaker 3>for how long they get seven million a year?

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<v Speaker 4>It's an arrangement between that's not government run government.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we found a lot more information at a

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<v Speaker 2>send inquiry last week that revealed the actual financial cost

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<v Speaker 2>of this deal. So we found out there's an upfront

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<v Speaker 2>payment that's going to be more than four hundred million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars going to NORU once the first person is deported

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<v Speaker 2>from Australia TONRU, and then also payments of up to

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<v Speaker 2>seventy million dollars per year after that. So the whole

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<v Speaker 2>deal over the thirty years is worth potentially two point

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<v Speaker 2>five billion dollars. There's huge amounts of money going towards

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<v Speaker 2>NARU in order to take some people from Australia on

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<v Speaker 2>thirty of visas.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me more about the group that this

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<v Speaker 1>arrangement is targeted at. This is a group of former

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<v Speaker 1>immigration attorneys that were released in the community in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three year.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this stems back to the High Court decision

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<v Speaker 2>from November twenty twenty three. So it is the end

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<v Speaker 2>z YQ case.

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<v Speaker 1>The High Court has tonight revealed all seven of its

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<v Speaker 1>judges agreed in definite immigration detention is unlawful. They're surprised

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<v Speaker 1>to see.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, these are people that were in immigration tension, but

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<v Speaker 2>they were never actually going to go back to their

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<v Speaker 2>home countries, so they were basically in indefinite detention and

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<v Speaker 2>it was ruled that Australia can't do that, so they

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<v Speaker 2>have to be released.

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<v Speaker 5>Over thirty five pages ruling imprisonment was penal or punitive

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<v Speaker 5>that could only be used by courts adjudging and punishing

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<v Speaker 5>criminal guilt. Claiming detention pending removal was legal as long

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<v Speaker 5>as removal through deportation was possible.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think all up, there's about three hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>fifty people that are caught up in that group, and

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<v Speaker 2>basically over nearly the last two years, it's been a

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<v Speaker 2>huge political problem more than anything for the government. The

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<v Speaker 2>oppositions kind of targeted a lot and blamed the government

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<v Speaker 2>for these people being out in the community, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>been a lot of rhetoric around the danger of these

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<v Speaker 2>people being out in the community, and I think the

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<v Speaker 2>fear that if any further crimes happened that it'll be

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<v Speaker 2>blamed on the government too.

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<v Speaker 6>The Opposition is calling on the Prime Minister to sack

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<v Speaker 6>his Immigration minister immediately following revelations he was worn about

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<v Speaker 6>a controversial direction that has allowed foreign born criminals to

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<v Speaker 6>stay in Australia.

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<v Speaker 7>Anthony Albaneze needs to stop running a protection racket for

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<v Speaker 7>Minister Giles and start protecting.

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<v Speaker 8>The Australia because what he is doing to Australia is

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<v Speaker 8>quite quite scary, and that's why the Prime Minister should

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<v Speaker 8>show leadership and sack him. But he's not and I

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<v Speaker 8>think that is but I think It is important to

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<v Speaker 8>note not all of them have done crimes as well,

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<v Speaker 8>but the people that have served a full prison sentence,

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<v Speaker 8>if they were Australian citizens, they'd be in the community

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<v Speaker 8>like normal and people are released every day for similar

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<v Speaker 8>crimes normally, and it's not a big political issue. The

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<v Speaker 8>only different thing here is these people are non citizens.

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<v Speaker 1>You mentioned last week, Danan, that we learned a bit

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<v Speaker 1>more about the arrangement when Home Affairs officials appeared before

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<v Speaker 1>a Senate committee. Particularly, we learn a fair bit about

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<v Speaker 1>the price tag. What are the questions did they face.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a lot of kind of questions about the

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<v Speaker 2>amounts of people that would be accepted, and part of

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<v Speaker 2>the deal was NURU taking everyone in this cohort, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was kind of a real that it's not it's

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<v Speaker 2>still kind of neuru's discretion to issue these visas to people,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's not necessarily going to take that whole cohort.

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<v Speaker 9>The memorandum of understanding that was signed last week YEP

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<v Speaker 9>doesn't specify the number of individuals. It is an agreement

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<v Speaker 9>pursuant to the provision in the Act to consider applications

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<v Speaker 9>from the Australian Government for people in this cohort and

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<v Speaker 9>for NARU to grant visas pursuant to that based on

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<v Speaker 9>their decision about whether they would.

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<v Speaker 10>So there's no figure, so they could take zero, they could, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I found out a bit about how the payments will work.

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<v Speaker 2>That was obviously the big question, and I think people

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<v Speaker 2>were very shocked to find out it can be up

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<v Speaker 2>to two point five billion dollars. You kind of had

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<v Speaker 2>David Pocock saying it was bonkers, like, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Just want you to know, like the people out there,

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<v Speaker 1>this sounds like totally bonkers, right, this is an extraordinary

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<v Speaker 1>amount money. We all know it's expensive to house people, but.

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<v Speaker 2>I think people genuinely really surprised that it was this

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<v Speaker 2>much money going to this very tiny nation to take

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<v Speaker 2>a group of people that is about kind of, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred people. And often it is the financial side

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<v Speaker 2>that gets across people more than the human element. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a very real human element here. But I think getting

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<v Speaker 2>that figure has helped people be a bit more outraged

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<v Speaker 2>by it than they were just when we found out

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<v Speaker 2>there was a deal in place.

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<v Speaker 1>And this deal is being paired with new legislation that

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<v Speaker 1>expands Australia's deportation powers. Those laws passed the set at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of last week. So what exactly do these

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<v Speaker 1>new powers entail and how do they relate to this

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<v Speaker 1>new arrangement with the route.

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<v Speaker 2>There's are pretty extraordinary new powers, and that legislation that

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<v Speaker 2>recently passed serves to constrict the rights to natural justice

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<v Speaker 2>to this group of people in Australia, which is basic

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<v Speaker 2>rights in the criminal justice system that have been taken

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<v Speaker 2>away from these people.

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<v Speaker 10>This horrific, monstrous bill.

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<v Speaker 2>You've never seen us people of color, migrants of color

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<v Speaker 2>as equals. There's been huge backlash from a range of

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<v Speaker 2>human rights groups, refugee advocates and legal organizations about this

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<v Speaker 2>plan to deport people and around the stripping of these

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<v Speaker 2>really basic and fundamental rights.

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<v Speaker 10>Australia's immigration regime is so brutal that even Trump points

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<v Speaker 10>to it and said that's a good idea, we should

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<v Speaker 10>do that too.

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<v Speaker 2>There's concerns around these powers the government have given themselves to.

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<v Speaker 2>You can be deported based on a decision that was wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the pact government has the power to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of overall that and they've taken away all your avenue

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<v Speaker 2>to appeal as well. The government have kind of justified

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<v Speaker 2>it by saying that a lot of people are using

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<v Speaker 2>procedural fairness to kind of slow the process. I think

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<v Speaker 2>these exact words was kind of to frustrate their removal,

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<v Speaker 2>to delay things, and I think the government has been

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<v Speaker 2>frustrated by court proceedings around this. But that's also how

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<v Speaker 2>it's meant to be functioning. So it's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people being remove these basic rights to kind of speed

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<v Speaker 2>up the process. I think is basically the aim and

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<v Speaker 2>to get people out of Australia as quickly as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's the problem that the government is trying to

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<v Speaker 1>solve for you? I mean, what do they think the

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<v Speaker 1>process needs to be split up and that essentially these

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<v Speaker 1>groups should have the legal rights denied. I mean it's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty extreme.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's just basically been that political problem

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<v Speaker 2>that they've had since these people were ordered to be

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<v Speaker 2>released by the High Court. It's kept popping up every

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<v Speaker 2>time there has been another crime committed by someone that

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<v Speaker 2>was released as part of that decision. It's become another

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<v Speaker 2>political issue and it's just not going away. And I've tried.

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<v Speaker 2>It's almost been a bit of kind of a whack

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<v Speaker 2>a mole game with the courts. They've tried a few

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<v Speaker 2>other things. They've tried electronic monitoring, they've tried getting people

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<v Speaker 2>back in immigration detention, and it keeps either getting knocked

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<v Speaker 2>back or stalled by the courts. So I think they're

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<v Speaker 2>just looking a way to really completely wash the hands

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<v Speaker 2>of these people and this issue and send them off

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<v Speaker 2>to another country actually on visas. So it's really out

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<v Speaker 2>of Australia's hands.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up what life on Naru will look like for

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<v Speaker 1>this group. And you've been reporting on Australia's off sure

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<v Speaker 1>immigration detension for some time there and you've examined what

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<v Speaker 1>life is actually like on LaRue for this group who

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<v Speaker 1>will be sent there. They will have visas, the right

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<v Speaker 1>to work, freedom of movement. So what can you tell

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<v Speaker 1>me about what life might be like once they arrive.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Naru is a tiny nation. It's about twelve

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<v Speaker 2>thousand people and there's a lot of poverty and the

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<v Speaker 2>cost of living is extremely high. Basic bedgears, bottled water

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<v Speaker 2>is very expensive. It's not an easy place to live.

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<v Speaker 2>So there still are about one hundred asylum seekers in

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<v Speaker 2>offshore processing on NRU at the moment, and they obviously

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<v Speaker 2>are under different conditions and this cohort will be they

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<v Speaker 2>don't have the right to work and other rights like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm in contact with some of those people and yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they just describe it extremely hard to get buy over there,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of them are going without three meals

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<v Speaker 2>a day. And they also say that people are very

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<v Speaker 2>aware of what's happening with this deal. They're aware of

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<v Speaker 2>who these people are and who the government have kind

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<v Speaker 2>of described them as being too. Obviously, a big part

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<v Speaker 2>of this is these people being described as dangerous and appalling,

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<v Speaker 2>and there are people in the script that haven't even

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<v Speaker 2>committed a crime, but there's been a lot of rhetoric

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<v Speaker 2>about just how dangerous they are. And now you're kind

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<v Speaker 2>of sending them off to a very small country to

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<v Speaker 2>just live amongst the community. You can see a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of issues with that, and issues with finding work as

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<v Speaker 2>well to survive when you've kind of been described like

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<v Speaker 2>that by the big government nearby. Can see a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of issues around that.

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<v Speaker 1>So what kind of support will they have once they

0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.280
<v Speaker 1>arrive and in your estimation, does have the ability to

0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:47.959
<v Speaker 1>support them.

0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.680
<v Speaker 2>We don't know a lot of detail about the support

0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.920
<v Speaker 2>on office. Similar to a lot of things about this deal.

0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.920
<v Speaker 2>We do know that some chunk of the payments Australia

0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.960
<v Speaker 2>sending is going directly to the new government to support

0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.880
<v Speaker 2>these people, but beyond that we don't know. There have

0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:04.880
<v Speaker 2>been huge problems in the past with a lot of

0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the huge amounts of money that are in the immigration

0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.679
<v Speaker 2>detention system over there being misused and corruption issues. So

0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.719
<v Speaker 2>there's always going to be ongoing concerns around that. And

0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:19.079
<v Speaker 2>it's just a very low socioeconomic country that will struggle

0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:20.760
<v Speaker 2>with a new group. I think there's about one in

0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.840
<v Speaker 2>four people in Nuru live below the basic needs poverty line. Already,

0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.679
<v Speaker 2>healthcare is a massive concern. There's have been ongoing issues

0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.720
<v Speaker 2>in Australia with bringing people onto mainland Australia who need

0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 2>medical treatment, bringing asylum seekers, there's not really established healthcare

0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 2>offerings there, and I think there's already existing problems and

0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:41.880
<v Speaker 2>you're bringing potentially hundreds of new people there. I think

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.440
<v Speaker 2>there's huge concerns about being able to support them properly

0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:45.560
<v Speaker 2>and what sort of.

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.199
<v Speaker 1>Questions does this phrase about Australia's obligations to these people.

0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.160
<v Speaker 1>Australia won't resettle them, but they also can't return them

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.640
<v Speaker 1>to their country. Of origin for fear of being harmed.

0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.840
<v Speaker 1>So do we still have a responsibility for their welfare

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.480
<v Speaker 1>even if Australia offloads them to a third country.

0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great question and I think it's

0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.839
<v Speaker 2>one that will be tested because I think Australia will

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.160
<v Speaker 2>very much argue that they don't after this. I think

0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.960
<v Speaker 2>they'll say they've satisfied their obligations by finding a new

0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.080
<v Speaker 2>country for them to live in. They've on a visa

0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.800
<v Speaker 2>for thirty years, they've got rights to work. But I

0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.520
<v Speaker 2>think there's a very strong argument that Australia does have

0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.839
<v Speaker 2>a responsibility. We forcibly sent them over to this very

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>small nation. There is some obligation there, and it's as

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 2>part of a deal where we're sending a lot of money.

0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:29.160
<v Speaker 2>So I think there are going to be a lot

0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.320
<v Speaker 2>of arguments that Australia does still have a very strong

0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 2>responsibility for their welfare. We're kind of following the rules

0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.719
<v Speaker 2>around non refilments, so we can't send them back to

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.240
<v Speaker 2>a country they're going to face persecution, and that's why

0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:42.720
<v Speaker 2>they found a fix in terms of Nuru and paying

0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.000
<v Speaker 2>a country to take them. But I think that just

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.839
<v Speaker 2>raises massive questions about the responsibility of Australia and I

0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.000
<v Speaker 2>think they're quite likely to be tested and in some

0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.600
<v Speaker 2>way or another, I think it raises really important questions

0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.439
<v Speaker 2>about the prison system as well. I think people and

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.839
<v Speaker 2>help serve their prison sentence EAT eight people are coming

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.160
<v Speaker 2>out of prison having done worse crimes and a lot

0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.160
<v Speaker 2>of people in this group and that scene is okay.

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 2>But for some reason it's different, purely because these people

0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.320
<v Speaker 2>come from different countries. So I think Australia has an

0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.959
<v Speaker 2>obligation to help with the rehabilitation and reintegration sort of

0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 2>process with these people, rather than just offshoring them to

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>a different country and washing our hands.

0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:23.800
<v Speaker 1>Danian, thank you so much for your time.

0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Tomorrow on the show. I'm bringing you a fascinating interview

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:46.040
<v Speaker 1>with the woman responsible for exposing the child abuse rampant

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.880
<v Speaker 1>in the tild care sector last year. After hearing complaints

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.600
<v Speaker 1>from parents about what was going on in daycare centers,

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:58.120
<v Speaker 1>New South Wales, Green's MLC Abigail Boyd started investigating and

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 1>what she found was horrific. In thousands of documents Abigail

0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.720
<v Speaker 1>read about the ways house system fails children.

0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 7>I can't explain or described just how awful it was,

0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.240
<v Speaker 7>spending hours reading and not just one We're not talking

0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.280
<v Speaker 7>just one incident. This is incident after incident after incident,

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.000
<v Speaker 7>across so many centers.

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 1>She worked with Four Corners to expose these stories, and

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 1>she spent the year sharing a Parliamentary inquiry into the

0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.400
<v Speaker 1>multi billion dollar sector, grilling CEOs from the industry, hearing

0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 1>from workers, and I'm picking what's gone wrong at the regulator.

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.960
<v Speaker 1>She tells us what needs to change to protect Australian children.

0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Don't miss that conversation tomorrow on seven am. See you then,