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Speaker 1: Approache Production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. If you like our content, please hit the

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Speaker 2: like and subscribe buttons and share it with your friends

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Speaker 2: to support more independent crime journalism. And if you have

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Speaker 2: a story for me, don't hesitate to get in touch.

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Speaker 2: You can send me an email at Adam Shand writer

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Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. That's how today's story came to me,

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Speaker 2: and it's one of the most unusual stories I ever covered.

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Speaker 2: A decade later, I'm still coming to terms with how

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Speaker 2: and why it happened. I got an email from a

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Speaker 2: bank robber, not your average stick up man. Daniel Saunders

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Speaker 2: was a barmany in a country town who stumbled upon

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Speaker 2: a glitch in his ATM card which allowed him to

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Speaker 2: take almost unlimited money from the National Australia Bank.

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Speaker 1: Imagine getting rich in an instant.

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Speaker 2: It is exactly what happened to Dan Saunders after an

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Speaker 2: EIGHTM glitch accidentally handed.

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Speaker 1: Him one point six million dollars.

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Speaker 2: When confronted with this opportunity, many of us would take

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Speaker 2: a bit of cash, some might take a lot. Very

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Speaker 2: few would do what Dan did. Over the next four

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Speaker 2: and a half months, Dan transferred more than one point

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Speaker 2: four million dollars to his account and had the greatest

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Speaker 2: time of his life. A cast of friends, both old

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Speaker 2: and new, came along for the ride. As Dan sought

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Speaker 2: to define the limits of the glitch.

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Speaker 3: He blew cash on wild parties like Jurius hotels fancy dinners.

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Speaker 3: He even gave money to friends.

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Speaker 2: The bank didn't seem to understand it was being robbed

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Speaker 2: and did nothing, so the spree grew bigger and bigger.

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Speaker 2: In the end, Dan voluntarily stopped and came to me

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Speaker 2: to confess and help him atone for what he did.

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Speaker 3: He expected police to catch him, but for three years

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Speaker 3: it never happened until it confessed to the crime on TV.

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Speaker 1: The story of.

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Speaker 2: The Golden ATM Card has gone around the world in

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Speaker 2: hundreds of different languages. I'm making a movie of the

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Speaker 2: story with a friend in Hollywood as we speak. But

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Speaker 2: it's only now that Dan understands what really motivated him.

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Speaker 2: We originally sat down after ten years to discuss the

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Speaker 2: difference between the man and the myth. It's been ten

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Speaker 2: years since we sat pretty much in this room. If

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Speaker 2: you feed that way, I think I do better. Sound now,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't do it in the kitchen. It's better location

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Speaker 2: for Sounta. I've led that much at least. But you know,

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Speaker 2: over that ten years, I've always felt the story didn't

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Speaker 2: satisfy me in some way. You came to me those

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Speaker 2: ten years ago and said, I want to confess this

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Speaker 2: thing I've done. It was a tremendous ride, but I

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Speaker 2: do feel that I want to atone for it, want

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Speaker 2: my life back, and so and so forth. And I

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Speaker 2: chose to see it through the prism that best made

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Speaker 2: sense for me, which was, here's this thing, this fate,

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Speaker 2: this destiny, out of the ether. This ordinary bloke, good bloke,

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Speaker 2: morally upright bloke chooses him. This is the moment where

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Speaker 2: the underdog wins. But even that, the underdog has a

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Speaker 2: moral sense and says, no, no, I did the wrong thing.

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Speaker 2: And we put that story out and never really quelled

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Speaker 2: my doubts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, no one challenged the facts. Nobody to this day.

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Speaker 2: And always the first question was, Ah, this couldn't have

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Speaker 2: happened the way he said. It couldn't have happened, you know,

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Speaker 2: And what's happened to the rest of the money. And

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Speaker 2: I got to answer the first question that I know

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent. Because I was skeptical at the beginning too,

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Speaker 2: but over time you showed me and I checked to

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Speaker 2: my own checks and the fact that even when I

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Speaker 2: said to you, mate, bless you like and fuck off,

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Speaker 2: you still wanted to come and tell me.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't understand any of that.

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Speaker 2: Why would someone be so keen to really damage their

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Speaker 2: own life when they didn't have to?

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Speaker 1: And since then, this story has gone.

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Speaker 2: All around the well millions and millions of downloads, and

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Speaker 2: it's always told through that prism that was convenient to me.

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Speaker 1: It's remarkable.

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Speaker 2: The numbers get bigger and the story gets larger and

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Speaker 2: bigger and bigger, and everyone wants to see it the

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Speaker 2: way they want to see it, and you, in that

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Speaker 2: process are no longer Dan Saunders. You're kind of what

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Speaker 2: they call an artifact of other people's images and desires.

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Speaker 2: And I think what I want to do today, I

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Speaker 2: think you have the clarity now to really resolve this

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Speaker 2: story in a way that makes sense to me, at least,

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Speaker 2: so to understand was.

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Speaker 1: This really a surreal thing?

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Speaker 2: Did the fates powers that we don't know about choose

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Speaker 2: you to give you this atm glitch and to have

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Speaker 2: this experience or was there something else that play. I

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Speaker 2: know you didn't think this at the time, but I

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Speaker 2: think over time you've got a lot of clarity to

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Speaker 2: your experience.

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Speaker 1: What it costs you, what it was. How do you

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Speaker 1: see it now?

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Speaker 2: Was this like finding a needle in the haystack or

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Speaker 2: the haystack finding you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot, There's a lot there at it.

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Speaker 4: It's great to be back in the same place as

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Speaker 4: ten years ago, and speaking about it further, It's been

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Speaker 4: a hell of a journey.

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Speaker 1: All of the time. I've got no regrets about it.

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Speaker 4: The way that I told the story at the time,

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Speaker 4: I didn't feel that that was, you know, in any

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Speaker 4: way inaccurate. Probably in hindsight you sort of look back

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Speaker 4: and you go, well, oh, that's of course why I

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Speaker 4: did that. But I was Yeah, I mean I was

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Speaker 4: a recreational punter, you know, used to gamble on the

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Speaker 4: horses on the weekend, and yeah, kind of in a way,

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Speaker 4: I guess I was sort of looking for something like that.

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Speaker 4: I think you probably naive if you think that I

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Speaker 4: was just walking along the street and just found something

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Speaker 4: sort of.

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Speaker 1: Out of the blue, or if the fates chose you

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Speaker 1: or something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I was definitely I was

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Speaker 4: partial to it, and it almost became like, I mean

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Speaker 4: I never I never gambled, you know, more than I

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Speaker 4: sort of, you know, like I see that. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's so interesting with the gambling messages, you know, like

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Speaker 4: gamble responsibly. It's like, well, what's responsibly? Like is it

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Speaker 4: just you know that you can get all your bills

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Speaker 4: paid and eat, or like what's the level of you know,

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Speaker 4: do you need to be putting some way of your

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Speaker 4: future or I guess it's you know, it's all sort of.

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Speaker 1: Up to you what's responsible.

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Speaker 4: And I see that the gambling message, now you know,

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Speaker 4: chances are you're about to lose, and the government sort

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Speaker 4: of celebrates this message. You go, oh, the message is

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Speaker 4: so great, so different as a gambler or you know,

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Speaker 4: a punter, there's something in my TNA. I look at

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Speaker 4: that message and I go, well, yeah, chances are I

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Speaker 4: can lose, but chances are I can win.

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Speaker 1: You know, like that actually entices me more when I

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Speaker 1: hear that.

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Speaker 4: At the end, I'm like, oh great, yeah, yeah I

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Speaker 4: might lose, but hey, I might win, you know, And

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Speaker 4: that's what it's.

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Speaker 1: All based on.

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Speaker 2: Because I think the way this story has been told,

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Speaker 2: and I told it myself, is that again this shows

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Speaker 2: you in a surreal, mystic way. But you put it

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Speaker 2: very succinctly to me when we spoke again back in

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Speaker 2: the same place on the highway that I had my

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Speaker 2: first conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: But I set that up.

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Speaker 2: I made sure it wasn't the same place to be

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Speaker 2: honest for the story, you know. But you said this

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Speaker 2: was looking for me. Maybe not. Maybe I was looking

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Speaker 2: for this or something similar, or it would have been

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Speaker 2: something similar like this, because the real addiction maybe not

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Speaker 2: gamblings there, but I think it's the addiction to.

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Speaker 4: Risk, yeah, and living life in a scarcity loop. There's

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Speaker 4: this guy named Michael Easter, and he has this book

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Speaker 4: called Scarcity Brain, but he talks about this thing called

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Speaker 4: scarcity loop, and it's in a lot of things. It's

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Speaker 4: in social media, it's in yeah, of course. But ultimately

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Speaker 4: this ATM thing was just a exacerbated way of the

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Speaker 4: way that I lived my life at that point, you know,

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Speaker 4: so unpredictable rewards, not knowing what's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's like funny.

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Speaker 4: If you don't like gambling, you usually like certainty, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean. So so gambling sort of doesn't

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Speaker 4: work on people who like certainty because you know they

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Speaker 4: can't sort of. But people who like surprises and you know,

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Speaker 4: joy that comes in a way that's a complete surprise

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Speaker 4: was always amazing to so this ATM glitch I found

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Speaker 4: it and it was like, well, I can't stop because

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Speaker 4: I've got to see what's going to happen next, you know,

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Speaker 4: and people just to this day, I mean, it's been

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Speaker 4: replayed and retold, and so that's the places where people

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Speaker 4: come into trouble where they don't understand it is. It's

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Speaker 4: been told by third parties over and over and over

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Speaker 4: again who don't actually understand exactly the way it happened.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so this was an ATM glitch.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but I could alter my account balance, an incredibly

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Speaker 4: addictive thing to be able to do. Like I said,

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Speaker 4: literally by the stroke of a keyboard, you could put

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Speaker 4: one hundred thousand dollars in your account and then you

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Speaker 4: could walk into the bank and ask them for a balance,

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Speaker 4: and they think that you had that money there, so

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Speaker 4: they didn't see anything by giving you five thousand or

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Speaker 4: ten thousand. They're more than happy to give it to

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Speaker 4: you because that was in the bank to them. So

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Speaker 4: it's much more than just an ATM glitch. It's a

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Speaker 4: whole system glitch. But the point is it was incredibly addictive,

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Speaker 4: but I would say more addictive than the gambling, and that's.

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Speaker 1: Why that's why I went through it. But if I

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Speaker 1: hadn't gone.

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Speaker 4: And told that story in court, I don't think it

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Speaker 4: would have gone very well for me. I think they

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Speaker 4: would have been like, well, you can go to jail

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Speaker 4: for ten years.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, I don't know that didn't happen,

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Speaker 2: but I was amazed, literally amazed, when you manage just

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Speaker 2: to get one year, you know, I mean, I was

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Speaker 2: thinking this is going to be a five on the

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Speaker 2: bottom because other people have got similar sentences. So maybe

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Speaker 2: that formless, maybe that kind of naive decision. Maybe that

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Speaker 2: you know, that story, if you like, was the reason

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Speaker 2: that you stayed out of jail for those other years.

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Speaker 2: Because the addictive gambler who sees an opportunity and willfully

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Speaker 2: exploits it, is he going to get the same amount

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Speaker 2: of sympathy and stature as someone Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Probably not. Probably not.

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Speaker 4: I mean I'm not sure, but I think it was

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Speaker 4: a very good move, so were playing dumb to it all? Absolutely, Like,

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Speaker 4: I think that was a winning move, but I wasn't

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Speaker 4: thinking about that at the time.

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Speaker 2: But they can't stop there from it. You say it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a dumb move and it was a strategy. I

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Speaker 2: honestly don't think you were thinking that far ahead. I

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Speaker 2: think it's only now, And this is why this conversation

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Speaker 2: is so important at this stage. It's only now, with

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Speaker 2: that distance, you have the clarity on what was actually

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Speaker 2: going on and what you should do. And I think

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Speaker 2: you when I look back at our first meeting at

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Speaker 2: McBridge Road having a coffee first told me about it,

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Speaker 2: and I think you're almost looking at me saying, help

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Speaker 2: me to understand this. Why is this happening to me?

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Speaker 2: How do I move beyond this? And I couldn't tell you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was an incredible set of circumstances. You know,

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Speaker 4: you go to the bank. Obviously they're saying to me

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Speaker 4: that they're going to come and get That's their message, right,

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Speaker 4: So I'm like, Okay, well they're going to come and

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Speaker 4: get me eventually.

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Speaker 1: So what do I do now?

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Speaker 4: It's just sort of tread water and wait for them

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Speaker 4: to come, But I don't know that the guy I'm

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Speaker 4: talking to at the bank, he's ultimately not making the

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Speaker 4: decision on whether they're going to come and get me, right,

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Speaker 4: So I'm not hearing from them. I'm hearing from the

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Speaker 4: guy who's probably got a bit of heat on his

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Speaker 4: job because of what I was able to do.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but the point.

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Speaker 4: Is that they're not being transparent with me, Like, you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm coming forward, I'm owning up, I'm saying this is

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Speaker 4: what I'm doing, but they're not sort of coming back

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Speaker 4: to me with a transparent response. So that creates this

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Speaker 4: sort of thing. Well, you know, obviously they didn't bank

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Speaker 4: on me being a gambler because I just called their

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Speaker 4: bluff at the end of the day and I went, well,

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Speaker 4: if you're going to come and get me, then I'll

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Speaker 4: just sort of out myself and then we can get

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Speaker 4: this ball.

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Speaker 1: Rolling a lot quicker, which I was happy with.

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Speaker 4: I was finely, but yeah, I mean to sort of

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Speaker 4: realize now that I wouldn't have had to face any

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Speaker 4: consequences for this, I'm sort of thinking how many people

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Speaker 4: have done similar things to this. I mean, there's got

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Speaker 4: to be more than just met it can't be just dance.

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Speaker 4: There's got to be flaws in systems, in big banks

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Speaker 4: in Australia where this has happened before and they've just

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Speaker 4: turned the other cheap.

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Speaker 2: In every man made system, there are these flaws. And

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Speaker 2: the difference here is that very few people will step

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Speaker 2: across the threshold, and very few people, having stepped across

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Speaker 2: the threshold, will now have the moral conscience or whatever

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Speaker 2: the thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Whether you had to atone for it, how do you

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Speaker 1: feel about now?

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Speaker 2: As you say, you could have got off scot free,

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Speaker 2: but you went through all these things as a result

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Speaker 2: of your own actions in putting yourself in it.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about that now?

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Speaker 4: I think now I'm one hundred percent where I need

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Speaker 4: to be. I just feel like it was meant to

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Speaker 4: play out in that way. I don't have any regrets

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Speaker 4: about it. I mean I regretted the first fifteen minutes

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Speaker 4: in jail. I was like, oh, what have you done

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Speaker 4: with your life?

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Speaker 1: And all that?

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Speaker 4: But you see the people in jail, Yeah, they've done

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Speaker 4: bad things, and like, obviously there's a point where they deserve.

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Speaker 1: To be there.

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Speaker 4: I'm not saying that. You know, if you don't do

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Speaker 4: the wrong thing. You shouldn't go to chart. I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying that, we're just saying they don't have the normal

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Speaker 4: upbringing that your eye had, you know, like they don't

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Speaker 4: have people that read them stories in the morning or

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Speaker 4: in the night, or they don't have people like literally,

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Speaker 4: guy I shared a cell with literally his dad used

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Speaker 4: to beat him every day. Like if your dad beats

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Speaker 4: you every day, and that's your vision of the world.

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Speaker 1: How are you going to turn out? You know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? Like so, and the damage is done by

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Speaker 1: the time he's seven.

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Speaker 4: It's not like when the government takes over at fourteen

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Speaker 4: fifteen or whatever it's it's when he's seven. He's getting

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Speaker 4: belted and he's you know, he's lost hearing he's right

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Speaker 4: yet and like he took someone apart. He did, like

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Speaker 4: he did the wrong thing. He's the first to admit that.

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Speaker 4: But he's like a bulldog, like you cross him, he'll

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Speaker 4: kill you.

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Speaker 1: That's it. He doesn't give shit, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: And it's a product of society, that's not a product

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Speaker 4: of like, oh, he was just a bad egg, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean. So that time in there was

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Speaker 4: incredibly insightful.

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Speaker 2: I was fearful for you to be honest, because, like

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Speaker 2: I said at first meeting, you're not a crook stepping

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Speaker 2: into a space.

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Speaker 1: I mean, oh, what do you know.

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Speaker 2: I was worried about this idea that people were saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: Dan must have put money aside. I was thinking, when

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Speaker 2: he gets into jail and the people know this, and

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Speaker 2: they hear about his mother and his uncle and other

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Speaker 2: family members, and they go visit them to say, well,

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Speaker 2: where Stan's money, you know, and are you responsible for that?

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Speaker 4: Oh you think that hens? Yeah, yeah, people have called

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Speaker 4: my mum and asked that. Absolutely. But I mean that's all,

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Speaker 4: you know, that's all part of it. I'm not winging.

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Speaker 4: I'm just saying that, like you underestimate what happens in it,

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Speaker 4: Like I think people sort of go, oh, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 4: that's just that, and you have no idea like the

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Speaker 4: amount of what's happening between the guards and the prisoners.

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Speaker 1: And then how that impacts the outside world.

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Speaker 4: The amount of cash going through TA aircounts for drugs

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Speaker 4: in jail is astronomical, unbelievable, likely to be the easiest

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Speaker 4: thing to track in the world if you're trying to

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Speaker 4: track it.

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Speaker 1: But it's just now us. You know, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's how they do business, keep them quiet to some extent.

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Speaker 2: And there maybe I think you've had one of those

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Speaker 2: penny drop moments, or maybe it's come over a period

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Speaker 2: of time, and there's certainly a penny drop moment for

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Speaker 2: me where we.

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Speaker 1: Look at the motivation for this because I could never

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Speaker 1: understand it.

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Speaker 2: I understand risk and having a dash and you know,

331
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Speaker 2: going for the underdog, but destroying your own life in

332
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Speaker 2: the process. I never got it, and I was never

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Speaker 2: comfortable in being a part of that, to be perfectly honest.

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Speaker 1: And now when you come to this point with the

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Speaker 1: clarity to.

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Speaker 2: Say, I know what kind of caused this, and it's

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Speaker 2: not what the three hundred million downloads on YouTube purported

338
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Speaker 2: to be, it's no longer the truth. It's factually correct,

339
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 2: but it's not the truth. What's the real source? Why

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Speaker 2: did you at that point when you could have stepped

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Speaker 2: back and said, you know, one night's jolly, go back

342
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Speaker 2: to life, wangoada fiance making your progress?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't you?

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Speaker 4: It was just the thriller of the chase. It was

345
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Speaker 4: the process, It was the uncertainty, it was.

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Speaker 1: The choose your own adventure it was.

347
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Speaker 4: It was basically I got a free hit at something

348
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Speaker 4: that people don't normally get.

349
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Speaker 1: What though, But what was that thing?

350
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Speaker 4: I think it was just excitement. I think it was

351
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Speaker 4: just a level. There was a level of excitement there

352
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Speaker 4: that I really really resonated with. And my dopamine levels

353
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Speaker 4: must have been so high that I was just looking

354
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Speaker 4: for one through, after one through and after one through.

355
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Speaker 1: The way you feel when you were gambling. Yeah, yeah,

356
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Speaker 1: for sure. You know, I don't feel like I'm a

357
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Speaker 1: victim to gambling. I love gambling, you know.

358
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Speaker 4: I don't look at gambling and go through all my

359
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Speaker 4: life like in a lot of ways, I'd say it's

360
00:18:18,561 --> 00:18:23,160
Speaker 4: enhanced my life. But is the fifteen year old who's

361
00:18:23,761 --> 00:18:25,200
Speaker 4: you know, in the TB.

362
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Speaker 1: Betting next to his science teacher? You know, is he

363
00:18:29,041 --> 00:18:31,521
Speaker 1: good with it? You know? I don't know. But the

364
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,001
Speaker 1: forty three year old means I'm in it. Yeah.

365
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Speaker 2: I'm not looking to tell a victim story here, because

366
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Speaker 2: if this is a victim story, the listeners will have

367
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Speaker 2: already switched off. They know this story, they know the story,

368
00:18:43,441 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 2: and they processed it. But I think the harder thing

369
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Speaker 2: is to look at the true motivation for this and

370
00:18:49,921 --> 00:18:50,721
Speaker 2: why it.

371
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Speaker 1: Couldn't stop, how it just changes everything.

372
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Speaker 2: And I look at those stories after this conversation we had,

373
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Speaker 2: I look at those stories out on the internet and

374
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Speaker 2: I just kind of laugh at them. It don't make

375
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Speaker 2: any sense, And you've made it make sense for me

376
00:19:05,201 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 2: in the sense that this wasn't looking for you. You

377
00:19:09,001 --> 00:19:11,681
Speaker 2: were looking for this, Yeah, for.

378
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,441
Speaker 1: Sure, for sure.

379
00:19:13,001 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 4: And I think automatically, like if you say, if you

380
00:19:16,801 --> 00:19:19,681
Speaker 4: say you're a gambler. I remember there was a there

381
00:19:19,681 --> 00:19:24,001
Speaker 4: was a forensic psychologist when it saw the County Quarter

382
00:19:24,201 --> 00:19:24,761
Speaker 4: pointed him.

383
00:19:24,921 --> 00:19:26,201
Speaker 1: His name was Ian Joblin.

384
00:19:26,521 --> 00:19:29,321
Speaker 4: I told him the whole story and he concluded that

385
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Speaker 4: gambling had nothing to do with it.

386
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Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, you're a hell of a psychologist, buddy.

387
00:19:37,561 --> 00:19:40,241
Speaker 4: Like if you can't work out that I went in

388
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Speaker 4: an ATM spree or a bank spree and the sole

389
00:19:46,201 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 4: purpose or the sole source wasn't because I was a

390
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,321
Speaker 4: bit of a punter, then I don't know what you're

391
00:19:53,321 --> 00:19:53,921
Speaker 4: doing in.

392
00:19:53,921 --> 00:19:56,281
Speaker 1: This little lofts in the County Court, buddy, because there's

393
00:19:56,321 --> 00:19:57,640
Speaker 1: something not quite right there.

394
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Speaker 4: But I don't know whether he wanted to see it

395
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:02,440
Speaker 4: or he didn't want to see it.

396
00:20:02,441 --> 00:20:04,641
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I don't know the politics behind that,

397
00:20:05,201 --> 00:20:05,801
Speaker 1: but it's.

398
00:20:05,681 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 4: Very, very weird that gambling wouldn't have been you know,

399
00:20:09,721 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 4: the court sat there and went, oh, yeah, Dan was

400
00:20:13,201 --> 00:20:16,880
Speaker 4: just a barman who went to the ATM and saw

401
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 4: it was you know, sharn out cash.

402
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 1: So you just kept getting it. That was fine for

403
00:20:21,281 --> 00:20:22,041
Speaker 1: the court to follow.

404
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,481
Speaker 4: They were happy, so the bank didn't have to explain

405
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 4: anything on their part and that was it.

406
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:28,081
Speaker 1: Case closed.

407
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,281
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think over this period of time, you've

408
00:20:32,321 --> 00:20:35,801
Speaker 2: had space to reflect on your own journey through this

409
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,521
Speaker 2: and why these things happen and also what the purpose

410
00:20:38,561 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 2: of it was. And you know, when you look at

411
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:45,521
Speaker 2: those portrayals on the internet, but now it's just ubiquitous,

412
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of downloads, and it's to me, it's

413
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 2: not the Dan Saunders that I'm coming to know now,

414
00:20:51,441 --> 00:20:54,481
Speaker 2: it's the projection of what people wanted to see there.

415
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,601
Speaker 2: How do you feel when you look at the Dan

416
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,481
Speaker 2: Saunders that's portrayed in those stories.

417
00:21:00,801 --> 00:21:04,961
Speaker 4: I mean, half of them aren't factually correct, so.

418
00:21:05,201 --> 00:21:07,361
Speaker 1: A bit of an issue there. But I don't really

419
00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:08,801
Speaker 1: mind what people write.

420
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,801
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's funny if I cared about what

421
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 4: people thought about me, there's no way I would have

422
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 4: ever done something like the ATM thing, Like I don't

423
00:21:20,201 --> 00:21:23,360
Speaker 4: I don't really really have this thing where I've got

424
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 4: to be like, oh, I wonder what they think about me,

425
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,321
Speaker 4: or I want to be this, or I want to

426
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,281
Speaker 4: be that. It doesn't really come to me in any way,

427
00:21:31,441 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 4: like yeah, sure, I don't go after people like you know,

428
00:21:35,681 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 4: hurt people on a personal level.

429
00:21:38,281 --> 00:21:42,321
Speaker 1: But if I can stick it to the man, then absolutely.

430
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,561
Speaker 2: I loved you for that. No one's taking it down.

431
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,721
Speaker 2: They all loved you for it. That's that's the common theme.

432
00:21:46,761 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 2: And this is whatever, this is the secret dream, this is,

433
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 2: this is the escape acts. This is what everyone wants.

434
00:21:51,561 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: You know.

435
00:21:51,721 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 2: We'll talk about Allen Watts moving from one disliked self

436
00:21:55,441 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: image to something that you do want and who wouldn't

437
00:21:57,961 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 2: want to be the hero of the day, the Alaric.

438
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: And the guy who sticks it to the man.

439
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 2: No one wants to be the gambling addict, the guy

440
00:22:05,201 --> 00:22:08,401
Speaker 2: who's victed to risk the real story. Can you see

441
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,841
Speaker 2: how that character in those stories is not really your

442
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:11,641
Speaker 2: story at all?

443
00:22:11,721 --> 00:22:14,041
Speaker 1: In that the facts of the same, Oh for sure.

444
00:22:14,801 --> 00:22:17,041
Speaker 4: And I mean now that you tie in the gambler

445
00:22:17,801 --> 00:22:21,681
Speaker 4: you're almost sort of you're not really your person when

446
00:22:21,721 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 4: you're a gambler, you know, for a country that punts

447
00:22:24,481 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 4: so much and we've got so many gamblers, almost when

448
00:22:27,481 --> 00:22:31,721
Speaker 4: you're telling a story, it kind of gets distored to

449
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:32,921
Speaker 4: the fact you're a gambler.

450
00:22:32,961 --> 00:22:36,561
Speaker 1: It's like, well, oh, he's a gambler. Though he's a gambler,

451
00:22:36,801 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but I'm still a person.

452
00:22:38,921 --> 00:22:42,801
Speaker 2: And in the world, we love winning gamblers. Losing gamblers

453
00:22:43,041 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 2: are losers. We don't ready hear from them. We don't,

454
00:22:45,761 --> 00:22:48,921
Speaker 2: we don't, and they're unfortunately the kindling for this industry

455
00:22:48,961 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 2: in this country and around the world. But so while

456
00:22:52,441 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 2: you were a winner as such and you lived life

457
00:22:55,921 --> 00:22:59,281
Speaker 2: on your terms, I don't think any addicts would ever

458
00:22:59,321 --> 00:23:01,881
Speaker 2: say that they live their life on their own terms

459
00:23:01,921 --> 00:23:05,441
Speaker 2: when they're being directed by an addiction. And I feel

460
00:23:05,481 --> 00:23:07,761
Speaker 2: like that's the realization that you came to that at

461
00:23:07,761 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: that moment where you could transfer money from an account,

462
00:23:10,921 --> 00:23:13,521
Speaker 2: you didn't have to think, you know, you were compelled.

463
00:23:14,441 --> 00:23:17,401
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I know, like, look, I probably put

464
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,521
Speaker 4: it to you that even down the track, when the

465
00:23:20,561 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 4: bank said we're going to come and get you, I

466
00:23:24,201 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 4: wanted to just say straight out that I expected them

467
00:23:28,281 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 4: to say, hey, Dan side in this NBA and don't

468
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,521
Speaker 4: talk about it again. That's why I expected from the bank.

469
00:23:34,681 --> 00:23:38,321
Speaker 4: I didn't expect them to press charges against me. I

470
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 4: wasn't disappointed that they did, but I just didn't expect it.

471
00:23:41,481 --> 00:23:43,481
Speaker 4: I thought it would be too much of a storm.

472
00:23:43,721 --> 00:23:45,281
Speaker 4: And I mean, it's going to be a movie now.

473
00:23:45,521 --> 00:23:47,241
Speaker 4: The Bank's going to hear about this for the rest

474
00:23:47,281 --> 00:23:47,721
Speaker 4: of the earth.

475
00:23:47,801 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: If it had a life, if it had a life.

476
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,041
Speaker 4: It had a life, yeah, if it had a heartbeat, no,

477
00:23:52,201 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 4: But the point is, I mean, if they hadn't told me,

478
00:23:54,561 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 4: you know, on certain terms, that hey, this is not

479
00:23:56,481 --> 00:23:57,321
Speaker 4: going to come back to.

480
00:23:57,321 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: You, then I would have just walked away. But it

481
00:24:00,681 --> 00:24:02,481
Speaker 1: was the fact that I was getting.

482
00:24:02,201 --> 00:24:05,041
Speaker 4: From the bank we're going to come and get you

483
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:06,641
Speaker 4: spurred me to do this. Right.

484
00:24:06,921 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: But I did this because I like risk, right.

485
00:24:10,681 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 4: I love risk like I love gambling, maybe a little

486
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 4: bit too much. I'm not a victim of it. I'm

487
00:24:17,921 --> 00:24:20,841
Speaker 4: almost like a perpetrator of the gambling.

488
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because typically victims of addiction speak in terms of

489
00:24:25,001 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: regret and sorrow for what they've done to their lives

490
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,281
Speaker 2: other people, and they missed this part, which I think

491
00:24:32,321 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 2: is quite important to people's actual understanding.

492
00:24:34,761 --> 00:24:37,841
Speaker 1: But how much fun the consumption.

493
00:24:37,481 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: Of the drugs or the gambling, or the risk, or

494
00:24:39,721 --> 00:24:43,041
Speaker 2: what sex or whatever it is, how much fun it was,

495
00:24:43,441 --> 00:24:45,001
Speaker 2: And if people were fair ink and we might be

496
00:24:45,041 --> 00:24:46,801
Speaker 2: able to see this thing a bit more clearly rather

497
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: than through the rose colored glasses as you're just a

498
00:24:49,241 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: loser in a week if you fall in that place.

499
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,201
Speaker 4: I remember when I went to the media and told

500
00:24:56,241 --> 00:25:00,161
Speaker 4: my story it was risky, and I liked that part.

501
00:25:00,441 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that's risky, as I'm going to

502
00:25:04,001 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: do it.

503
00:25:04,481 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 4: And even in the county court when she was like,

504
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 4: you know, saying oh this and that, and you know,

505
00:25:10,241 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 4: we're not going to watch the video on YouTube, and

506
00:25:12,241 --> 00:25:15,081
Speaker 4: then she plays the exact video that's on YouTube.

507
00:25:15,681 --> 00:25:16,281
Speaker 1: All of that.

508
00:25:16,681 --> 00:25:20,201
Speaker 4: When I was sitting there, I was singing, well, if

509
00:25:20,241 --> 00:25:22,961
Speaker 4: I get five years here, I'll be lucky. And when

510
00:25:23,001 --> 00:25:25,561
Speaker 4: she gave me a year, I was like, Wow, you

511
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,361
Speaker 4: hit the jackpot, you know, And it.

512
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: Was the same feeling as winning the jackpot. I was like, jeezus,

513
00:25:31,321 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: a year. Good stuff.

514
00:25:32,961 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: Wow, that's really interesting because now you can say you

515
00:25:35,281 --> 00:25:38,041
Speaker 2: took this risk saying I thought, I can get five

516
00:25:38,441 --> 00:25:42,001
Speaker 2: happy with one, get one. So the risk in a

517
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 2: sense sort of paid off, well the gamble.

518
00:25:45,281 --> 00:25:47,241
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know whether it paid off. I mean,

519
00:25:47,561 --> 00:25:50,561
Speaker 4: if I apply for a job, like the answer is no,

520
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 4: you know, I wouldn't say it paid off. Okay, but

521
00:25:54,481 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 4: but yeah, I mean it got the desired results I

522
00:25:57,201 --> 00:25:58,521
Speaker 4: want at the time, for sure.

523
00:25:58,840 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

524
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,081
Speaker 2: And I guess that's a feature of a risk addiction,

525
00:26:03,761 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: is it's about what you need at that moment the

526
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:07,801
Speaker 2: next five minutes.

527
00:26:08,201 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 4: That's what it is. And it's a quick outcome, you know,

528
00:26:11,041 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 4: relatively speaking. It's like, Okay, we're going to roll the

529
00:26:14,241 --> 00:26:17,281
Speaker 4: dice and then we're going to get an outcome perfect.

530
00:26:17,481 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 4: Let's do it again, bo Let's do it again. And

531
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,921
Speaker 4: only once you understand that scarcy loop, you can see

532
00:26:24,921 --> 00:26:27,801
Speaker 4: it in a lot of things. Right, So the scarcy

533
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,561
Speaker 4: loop is everywhere. Now, I'll leave it to Michael East

534
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: to be able to explain exactly what it is in

535
00:26:33,681 --> 00:26:36,761
Speaker 4: his words, but I think he's nailed it because it's

536
00:26:36,801 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 4: in Facebook likes, it's in Instagram. If you put a post,

537
00:26:42,041 --> 00:26:45,881
Speaker 4: you get you know, a little, you know, But they started.

538
00:26:45,561 --> 00:26:48,721
Speaker 1: Putting it everywhere. That's my addiction, he likes. Yeah.

539
00:26:49,041 --> 00:26:51,601
Speaker 4: So they started putting it everywhere though, so it's in

540
00:26:52,281 --> 00:26:56,001
Speaker 4: kids learning apps. It's like the old soft drink, you know,

541
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 4: truck thinking. You know the sound, right, you know the sound,

542
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 4: and then that sticks with you forever. Mister Whippi, you

543
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 4: know that, you know the you know the sound. All

544
00:27:05,201 --> 00:27:09,081
Speaker 4: these sounds, all these things, they seem like they're nothing,

545
00:27:09,241 --> 00:27:12,801
Speaker 4: but there's some very very smart people behind them, and

546
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,721
Speaker 4: they understand exactly what they're doing.

547
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,881
Speaker 2: This recognition of an addiction to risk and gambling has

548
00:27:21,921 --> 00:27:26,001
Speaker 2: been a great clarifying moment for you, I think.

549
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:26,681
Speaker 1: And when I.

550
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 2: Look at the story again, the story is it's portrayed

551
00:27:28,921 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: and so and so forth, you know, and that people

552
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,641
Speaker 2: almost represent you. It's confusing because on one level, it's

553
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,161
Speaker 2: this naive every man bloke who stumbles on this thing,

554
00:27:38,201 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: but by the end he's transformed to this sort of

555
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 2: criminal mastermind.

556
00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:42,561
Speaker 1: He's going to do all these things.

557
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: And you wouldn't have done all these things and not

558
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,201
Speaker 2: put some money away. And that's one of the tantalizing

559
00:27:49,281 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: questions for everybody who watches these videos. Dan must have

560
00:27:53,001 --> 00:27:57,161
Speaker 2: put some money aside. But I know addiction, whether it's

561
00:27:58,041 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol, gambling. At the end, there's never anything left, correct, Yeah, right, absolutely,

562
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: there's nothing left.

563
00:28:06,801 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 4: You take it to the you take it to the end. Look,

564
00:28:08,921 --> 00:28:11,561
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you right, there's nothing left. And

565
00:28:12,241 --> 00:28:13,801
Speaker 4: you think people are going to believe that anyway?

566
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:14,561
Speaker 1: They probably won't.

567
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I could tell you I had, you know, five

568
00:28:17,681 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 4: million stash somewhere in a Cayman Island account and you

569
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,281
Speaker 4: tell me I'm full of shit.

570
00:28:23,441 --> 00:28:25,561
Speaker 2: I'd prefer to believe that to be as a journal

571
00:28:25,561 --> 00:28:26,321
Speaker 2: I'd prefer to believe that.

572
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

573
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter, it's not it's not important. I've already

574
00:28:30,761 --> 00:28:34,321
Speaker 4: learned that if you give them the story, then you know,

575
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,801
Speaker 4: if you give a court of law the story and

576
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,121
Speaker 4: they don't really want to know the true story, they'll

577
00:28:39,201 --> 00:28:42,521
Speaker 4: just use that. So what's the point in saying, oh,

578
00:28:42,561 --> 00:28:44,521
Speaker 4: this is here, you're just going to get some pin

579
00:28:44,601 --> 00:28:45,401
Speaker 4: push or somewhere.

580
00:28:45,561 --> 00:28:48,801
Speaker 2: Well, listen, they didn't want to know it, period, they really,

581
00:28:48,841 --> 00:28:50,121
Speaker 2: they really didn't. But I think I'm talking about the

582
00:28:50,161 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: perception for people, you know, and this idea that you

583
00:28:53,521 --> 00:28:56,561
Speaker 2: see it kind of destroys the whole premise. If you

584
00:28:56,641 --> 00:29:00,801
Speaker 2: go through all the self destruction, family at risk, future destroyed,

585
00:29:01,281 --> 00:29:02,041
Speaker 2: all these things.

586
00:29:02,041 --> 00:29:03,281
Speaker 1: You're getting pushed and pulled in the.

587
00:29:03,321 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: Media, end up going to jail linkable biggest belief that

588
00:29:05,961 --> 00:29:09,041
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have something tucked away, But it's only a

589
00:29:09,121 --> 00:29:12,681
Speaker 2: thought when you don't understand the nature of addiction, particularly gambling.

590
00:29:13,361 --> 00:29:14,161
Speaker 1: Well, pretty this far.

591
00:29:14,161 --> 00:29:17,081
Speaker 4: I mean, I leave it a lot better house, and

592
00:29:17,121 --> 00:29:19,161
Speaker 4: I've got a lot more money in the bank.

593
00:29:19,561 --> 00:29:22,841
Speaker 1: Than I've ever had in my whole wife, So I

594
00:29:22,841 --> 00:29:23,961
Speaker 1: would say I'm doing better.

595
00:29:24,201 --> 00:29:30,081
Speaker 2: None of it's the NABS, No, no.

596
00:29:28,561 --> 00:29:30,841
Speaker 4: No, I wouldn't have a bank account with the NIBS

597
00:29:30,841 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 4: because you know, you'd probably just have money disappearing from it.

598
00:29:34,241 --> 00:29:36,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're in a good place now, to be honest.

599
00:29:37,001 --> 00:29:39,361
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I'm not some sort of high flyer

600
00:29:39,401 --> 00:29:42,961
Speaker 4: with a private generally, but yeah, yeah, but I'm only

601
00:29:43,001 --> 00:29:46,241
Speaker 4: in a better place because i understand myself a lot

602
00:29:46,281 --> 00:29:50,161
Speaker 4: better and I've actually been able to stand back and

603
00:29:50,201 --> 00:29:51,521
Speaker 4: take a snapshot.

604
00:29:51,041 --> 00:29:54,161
Speaker 1: Of what was going on and to be able to,

605
00:29:54,201 --> 00:29:56,401
Speaker 1: you know, to move on from that. Yeah.

606
00:29:56,761 --> 00:30:00,161
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to stop myself idealizing this ending, right,

607
00:30:00,241 --> 00:30:02,721
Speaker 2: I'm trying to stop myself like I idealized this story

608
00:30:02,721 --> 00:30:03,361
Speaker 2: in the beginning.

609
00:30:03,481 --> 00:30:05,601
Speaker 1: I got a little post note that we'll say completion.

610
00:30:06,481 --> 00:30:09,521
Speaker 2: You're one of the things I have to complete and

611
00:30:09,561 --> 00:30:14,321
Speaker 2: to understand it fully, and your life just doesn't start again.

612
00:30:14,361 --> 00:30:19,601
Speaker 2: Now you're struggling with the purpose of your life and

613
00:30:19,641 --> 00:30:21,441
Speaker 2: the events to date, and it make sense to those

614
00:30:21,481 --> 00:30:27,481
Speaker 2: and go forward. And I think this self discovery about

615
00:30:27,521 --> 00:30:30,681
Speaker 2: the role of addiction to both gambling and risk is

616
00:30:30,801 --> 00:30:35,921
Speaker 2: driving you towards a much more sturdy purpose than anything

617
00:30:35,921 --> 00:30:37,361
Speaker 2: else that's come along.

618
00:30:37,721 --> 00:30:40,841
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, for sure, I want to start a gambling

619
00:30:40,881 --> 00:30:46,121
Speaker 4: retreat because I feel like I really understand gambling. You know,

620
00:30:46,161 --> 00:30:50,361
Speaker 4: I was listening to Helping Easy talk about gambling in

621
00:30:51,161 --> 00:30:54,761
Speaker 4: he doesn't get what gambling is. He doesn't really understand,

622
00:30:55,121 --> 00:30:57,841
Speaker 4: he doesn't grasp exactly what it is. He sort of

623
00:30:58,401 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 4: stands there talking about two people running between rocks, and

624
00:31:01,321 --> 00:31:03,281
Speaker 4: you know that we've always had gambling and all.

625
00:31:03,161 --> 00:31:03,801
Speaker 1: This kind of thing.

626
00:31:04,601 --> 00:31:08,961
Speaker 4: I think it's never been tied to society in such

627
00:31:08,961 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: a way that it is now, you know, even the

628
00:31:11,961 --> 00:31:13,841
Speaker 4: you know, the things like I think he made some

629
00:31:13,961 --> 00:31:17,361
Speaker 4: examples like, oh, you know, two people want to have

630
00:31:17,401 --> 00:31:21,001
Speaker 4: a bet on a horse race, then that's their business.

631
00:31:21,641 --> 00:31:23,641
Speaker 4: But we're sort of far beyond that, like it's in

632
00:31:23,721 --> 00:31:27,761
Speaker 4: trench now, and I don't think people actually understand how

633
00:31:27,881 --> 00:31:31,121
Speaker 4: far the tentacles go. You know, I read some stuff

634
00:31:31,121 --> 00:31:33,681
Speaker 4: from the Gratton Institute and sort of you know, people

635
00:31:33,681 --> 00:31:36,921
Speaker 4: who are doing research into this, but I don't think

636
00:31:37,041 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 4: they really realize how far it goes. Like I think

637
00:31:40,001 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: they just sort of, you know, they get that it

638
00:31:42,241 --> 00:31:46,801
Speaker 4: goes deep. But you know, the whole conversation around you know,

639
00:31:46,961 --> 00:31:50,241
Speaker 4: gambling ants at the moment. You know, yeah, sure I'm

640
00:31:50,241 --> 00:31:53,601
Speaker 4: not I'm not anti gambling at all, but I reckon

641
00:31:53,601 --> 00:31:56,081
Speaker 4: people should be allowed to do it, but the kids

642
00:31:56,121 --> 00:31:59,681
Speaker 4: probably shouldn't see it. A kid who's fourteen probably shouldn't know,

643
00:32:00,441 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: you know, exactly how to tie multi together or you

644
00:32:04,201 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 4: know whatever. Think already the culture in Australia is that

645
00:32:07,521 --> 00:32:10,001
Speaker 4: they want to go to the casino when they turn eighteen. Anyway,

646
00:32:10,121 --> 00:32:11,881
Speaker 4: they want to get a sports better camp. But you

647
00:32:11,921 --> 00:32:14,121
Speaker 4: go and ask it's not about going to the pub

648
00:32:14,201 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 4: for a piss up. It's like I can't wait till

649
00:32:16,361 --> 00:32:17,841
Speaker 4: aden and I'm gonna get sports better camp.

650
00:32:17,921 --> 00:32:18,441
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

651
00:32:19,001 --> 00:32:21,121
Speaker 4: You know, because I like Daisy Thomas or you know,

652
00:32:21,201 --> 00:32:24,161
Speaker 4: I like Billy brownas or whatever, you know what I mean.

653
00:32:24,241 --> 00:32:26,841
Speaker 4: It's so entrenched, but it's also intrenched in ways that

654
00:32:26,961 --> 00:32:33,001
Speaker 4: you don't like. The gambling industry, they've been largely underestimated, right,

655
00:32:33,081 --> 00:32:37,321
Speaker 4: So Tom Waterhouse came into you know, people's laund rooms

656
00:32:37,321 --> 00:32:40,921
Speaker 4: on the footing right, talking about odds, talking about races

657
00:32:40,961 --> 00:32:46,681
Speaker 4: the next day. Case whole mo is to basically join

658
00:32:46,801 --> 00:32:52,361
Speaker 4: up gambling propositions. So they try and join racing to

659
00:32:53,081 --> 00:32:57,281
Speaker 4: football and vice versa. So there's a product for every

660
00:32:57,361 --> 00:33:01,401
Speaker 4: moment of the day. So that's how they want you

661
00:33:01,481 --> 00:33:04,041
Speaker 4: to bet. So it doesn't matter how much you're bet

662
00:33:04,041 --> 00:33:06,601
Speaker 4: at the start, just a dollar or five dollars or whatever,

663
00:33:07,201 --> 00:33:10,041
Speaker 4: but they ultimately want you to bet on the footy

664
00:33:10,081 --> 00:33:12,881
Speaker 4: on Friday night and then wake up and think about

665
00:33:13,001 --> 00:33:16,001
Speaker 4: what you're going to bet on Saturday, the racers, then

666
00:33:16,041 --> 00:33:17,641
Speaker 4: the footy on Saturday night.

667
00:33:18,281 --> 00:33:19,521
Speaker 1: Then that comes.

668
00:33:19,161 --> 00:33:22,081
Speaker 4: Into you know, if you get real interested, then two

669
00:33:22,161 --> 00:33:23,481
Speaker 4: am there's some badminton.

670
00:33:23,881 --> 00:33:25,401
Speaker 1: They call it next to go a gambler.

671
00:33:25,561 --> 00:33:28,441
Speaker 4: So basically it's all the way that they do it

672
00:33:28,481 --> 00:33:30,281
Speaker 4: is they join it together. They're actually over there in

673
00:33:30,321 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 4: America trying to join up racing and American sport right now,

674
00:33:35,121 --> 00:33:38,281
Speaker 4: Like that's their big thing, and it's it's super smart.

675
00:33:38,481 --> 00:33:40,601
Speaker 1: It's like if you have the n of L season,

676
00:33:40,921 --> 00:33:41,881
Speaker 1: right and people.

677
00:33:41,601 --> 00:33:43,841
Speaker 4: Bet on that, they've always bet on that, but then

678
00:33:43,881 --> 00:33:47,321
Speaker 4: you have the NBA season, there's nothing to link it, right,

679
00:33:47,401 --> 00:33:49,081
Speaker 4: So what they try and do is they try and

680
00:33:49,121 --> 00:33:52,561
Speaker 4: link everything together. So it's more like a slot machine,

681
00:33:52,681 --> 00:33:55,681
Speaker 4: you know, it's more this continuous thing that just keeps going.

682
00:33:56,081 --> 00:33:59,841
Speaker 1: So that's their emma. Basically, they want to make non.

683
00:33:59,681 --> 00:34:04,401
Speaker 4: Gamblers light gamblers, and then make light clamblers medium gamblers,

684
00:34:04,601 --> 00:34:07,161
Speaker 4: and then medium gamblers heavy gamblers.

685
00:34:07,201 --> 00:34:09,001
Speaker 1: That's pretty much what they want to do.

686
00:34:09,121 --> 00:34:12,281
Speaker 4: Like if you ask anyone in advertising, that's pretty much

687
00:34:12,281 --> 00:34:13,721
Speaker 4: what the gambling industry want to do.

688
00:34:14,121 --> 00:34:14,321
Speaker 1: You know.

689
00:34:14,401 --> 00:34:17,401
Speaker 4: That's fine, Like for people who are of age, you know, obviously,

690
00:34:17,521 --> 00:34:20,401
Speaker 4: you know you've lived your life long enough for you

691
00:34:20,401 --> 00:34:23,281
Speaker 4: should have someone around telling you, you know, maybe the

692
00:34:23,321 --> 00:34:25,721
Speaker 4: problems that can come up as a result of gambling

693
00:34:25,721 --> 00:34:30,121
Speaker 4: and all this. But the issue is that this stuff's everywhere.

694
00:34:30,481 --> 00:34:35,161
Speaker 4: So the same sounds there is on a slot machine,

695
00:34:35,361 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 4: and that same scarcity loop is in the actual games

696
00:34:41,001 --> 00:34:44,201
Speaker 4: that are part of the school curriculum. People just sort

697
00:34:44,201 --> 00:34:46,161
Speaker 4: of look at it and go, it's just a funny game.

698
00:34:46,401 --> 00:34:51,201
Speaker 4: It's got funny sounds. But the same game designers are

699
00:34:51,241 --> 00:34:57,121
Speaker 4: actually designing poker machines and slot games online. And also

700
00:34:57,921 --> 00:35:01,401
Speaker 4: they're doing kids learning apps, so they're putting in the

701
00:35:01,521 --> 00:35:05,801
Speaker 4: same sounds in the learning app as what are in

702
00:35:05,841 --> 00:35:09,481
Speaker 4: the poking and then the stories that are involved in

703
00:35:09,521 --> 00:35:14,401
Speaker 4: the learning apps then later on become poker machines. Whether

704
00:35:14,441 --> 00:35:17,001
Speaker 4: it's by design or not, I don't know, but the

705
00:35:17,121 --> 00:35:19,481
Speaker 4: point is it's just become so normal.

706
00:35:21,001 --> 00:35:23,961
Speaker 2: You talk about fifteen being an important age, and I

707
00:35:23,961 --> 00:35:26,961
Speaker 2: always thought this was an important age for you, but

708
00:35:27,001 --> 00:35:29,361
Speaker 2: we never got to the bottom of it. Why really,

709
00:35:29,401 --> 00:35:32,281
Speaker 2: Because at fourteen and a half you lost your dad

710
00:35:32,921 --> 00:35:35,481
Speaker 2: very suddenly. And I think what you're talking about now

711
00:35:35,521 --> 00:35:38,241
Speaker 2: is an appeal to parents. Again, this is not about

712
00:35:38,281 --> 00:35:41,521
Speaker 2: saying my life would have been different had this not happened.

713
00:35:41,561 --> 00:35:43,841
Speaker 2: But I think you've got some clarity about that event

714
00:35:44,441 --> 00:35:48,241
Speaker 2: and what you faced when you're making sense of these

715
00:35:48,281 --> 00:35:51,521
Speaker 2: things in the world. Your mum was still there battling

716
00:35:51,601 --> 00:35:54,441
Speaker 2: away trying to raise your dad was gone. You had

717
00:35:54,481 --> 00:35:56,801
Speaker 2: to make a lot of these decisions yourself. When you

718
00:35:56,841 --> 00:35:58,921
Speaker 2: talk about that. Yeah, I can talk about that.

719
00:35:59,241 --> 00:36:01,201
Speaker 4: I used to love footy, right, and I used to

720
00:36:01,561 --> 00:36:03,641
Speaker 4: go to the footy all the time and always go

721
00:36:03,721 --> 00:36:06,521
Speaker 4: with dad and he take me to training and stuff

722
00:36:06,521 --> 00:36:06,801
Speaker 4: like that.

723
00:36:06,881 --> 00:36:10,241
Speaker 1: So I think that all just ended. So what was

724
00:36:10,241 --> 00:36:12,801
Speaker 1: he like? It's beautiful. Yeah, he's beautiful man.

725
00:36:12,841 --> 00:36:15,401
Speaker 4: I loved him. Yeah, still thinking about him all the time.

726
00:36:16,241 --> 00:36:18,521
Speaker 4: But the point is, you know, people, people die and

727
00:36:18,561 --> 00:36:19,081
Speaker 4: things happen.

728
00:36:19,161 --> 00:36:19,881
Speaker 1: What are your memories of it?

729
00:36:20,681 --> 00:36:23,761
Speaker 4: I just always just always full of joy, just always. Yeah,

730
00:36:23,841 --> 00:36:26,201
Speaker 4: you love to drink. I don't think you punted. I'm

731
00:36:26,201 --> 00:36:30,161
Speaker 4: not sure, but he just was left the party. Yeah,

732
00:36:30,361 --> 00:36:33,561
Speaker 4: just a really sort of outgoing guy who got on

733
00:36:33,601 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 4: with everyone and just had a great time.

734
00:36:35,641 --> 00:36:39,241
Speaker 1: I mean, at that age, the father is very important. Fourteen.

735
00:36:39,241 --> 00:36:42,321
Speaker 2: You're becoming a prototype young man at fourteen and.

736
00:36:42,241 --> 00:36:43,161
Speaker 1: A half fifteen, and.

737
00:36:44,641 --> 00:36:49,361
Speaker 2: So I guess that moral or practical guidance or whatever

738
00:36:49,361 --> 00:36:52,281
Speaker 2: you want to call it, when you remove that all

739
00:36:52,321 --> 00:36:56,241
Speaker 2: of a sudden. Yeah, and Mum's I mean, Mums, she's

740
00:36:56,241 --> 00:36:58,601
Speaker 2: a beautiful warman. She's did everything she possibly could for you.

741
00:36:58,641 --> 00:37:00,361
Speaker 2: But these were things you're going to walk through pretty

742
00:37:00,401 --> 00:37:03,401
Speaker 2: much on your own. You know, what impact did that have?

743
00:37:03,601 --> 00:37:05,881
Speaker 4: From that age, do you think, Well, I think I

744
00:37:06,881 --> 00:37:09,841
Speaker 4: definitely found a crutch in like having a punt and

745
00:37:09,841 --> 00:37:11,681
Speaker 4: stuff like that, and it was so normal. I mean,

746
00:37:11,721 --> 00:37:14,361
Speaker 4: back then it was so normal. You know, you'd have

747
00:37:14,361 --> 00:37:16,361
Speaker 4: to sweep at school.

748
00:37:16,201 --> 00:37:18,201
Speaker 1: You know, literally it's good for the Melbourne cupany, Yeah,

749
00:37:18,201 --> 00:37:20,241
Speaker 1: it's the teacher to do it, you know.

750
00:37:20,281 --> 00:37:21,961
Speaker 4: I remember in the North Melbourne tab when I was

751
00:37:22,001 --> 00:37:24,761
Speaker 4: fifteen in my school uniform, you know, the science teacher,

752
00:37:24,801 --> 00:37:27,561
Speaker 4: mister Kuma. You know, they're punting as well, and you

753
00:37:27,601 --> 00:37:28,881
Speaker 4: know it was sort of like, you know, just a

754
00:37:28,921 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 4: little secret, you know. And that was a few of us,

755
00:37:31,441 --> 00:37:33,961
Speaker 4: it wasn't just me. Yeah, so just how yeah, just

756
00:37:34,001 --> 00:37:36,121
Speaker 4: how normal it is. But I mean, I think the

757
00:37:36,201 --> 00:37:38,241
Speaker 4: point with all this stuff is that you know, you

758
00:37:38,241 --> 00:37:39,561
Speaker 4: can get hung up on gambling.

759
00:37:40,241 --> 00:37:44,401
Speaker 1: All of this can lead to a gaming addiction or

760
00:37:44,401 --> 00:37:46,841
Speaker 1: a risk addiction, I think, more more broadly, a risk cher. Yeah.

761
00:37:46,841 --> 00:37:49,361
Speaker 4: You've got these fourteen year olds, you know who won't

762
00:37:49,401 --> 00:37:52,561
Speaker 4: leave their house because they're playing video games. Yeah, if

763
00:37:52,601 --> 00:37:56,001
Speaker 4: you had a caught it earlier and known what this is,

764
00:37:56,841 --> 00:37:58,841
Speaker 4: then you know the parents might not be having such

765
00:37:58,881 --> 00:37:59,521
Speaker 4: an issue now.

766
00:37:59,881 --> 00:38:02,401
Speaker 2: Yeah, because when we started this new discussion you did

767
00:38:02,441 --> 00:38:05,841
Speaker 2: say a few times that I would like to classic structure.

768
00:38:05,881 --> 00:38:08,401
Speaker 2: I'll have a conversation with my fifteen year old self.

769
00:38:08,641 --> 00:38:11,721
Speaker 2: And what would that conversation be. I mean, particularly that

770
00:38:11,761 --> 00:38:15,481
Speaker 2: fifteen year old self has lost a very strong guiding

771
00:38:15,641 --> 00:38:17,681
Speaker 2: force in his life, his own father.

772
00:38:18,281 --> 00:38:20,081
Speaker 1: I mean, the fifteen year old self.

773
00:38:20,521 --> 00:38:23,121
Speaker 4: Look, so when you lose someone close to you, you

774
00:38:23,241 --> 00:38:27,241
Speaker 4: just want to live every day, you know, like at

775
00:38:27,281 --> 00:38:30,201
Speaker 4: you last and then growing up, I lost a couple

776
00:38:30,241 --> 00:38:33,401
Speaker 4: of really good mates early so to eighteen, and yeah,

777
00:38:33,441 --> 00:38:34,521
Speaker 4: that just reinforced that.

778
00:38:35,121 --> 00:38:35,521
Speaker 1: Yeah I was.

779
00:38:35,721 --> 00:38:38,761
Speaker 4: I was just having fun, just basically working as much

780
00:38:38,761 --> 00:38:41,161
Speaker 4: as I needed to live and having fun the.

781
00:38:41,081 --> 00:38:41,641
Speaker 1: Rest of the time.

782
00:38:41,961 --> 00:38:45,001
Speaker 4: You know. But you go to bars and restaurants and

783
00:38:45,041 --> 00:38:47,281
Speaker 4: stuff in Melbourne here, and there's a lot of people

784
00:38:47,321 --> 00:38:47,961
Speaker 4: doing the same thing.

785
00:38:48,481 --> 00:38:50,001
Speaker 1: It's not out of the ordinary.

786
00:38:50,241 --> 00:38:51,521
Speaker 2: Where it gets out of the ordinary, though, is when

787
00:38:51,521 --> 00:38:53,721
Speaker 2: you're confronted with an opportunity like the ATM and you

788
00:38:53,721 --> 00:38:55,641
Speaker 2: don't stop, you don't even hesitate really.

789
00:38:55,441 --> 00:38:56,041
Speaker 1: Well for sure.

790
00:38:56,081 --> 00:38:57,441
Speaker 4: But I think there's a lot of people on the

791
00:38:57,441 --> 00:39:01,481
Speaker 4: cusp of that, you know, if they were given that opportunity.

792
00:39:01,521 --> 00:39:03,121
Speaker 1: Well, I actually know that this is true.

793
00:39:03,161 --> 00:39:05,881
Speaker 4: I'm not just you know, I'm not just sit back going, Oh,

794
00:39:06,201 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 4: you know, everyone would do it if they had a chance.

795
00:39:08,001 --> 00:39:09,721
Speaker 1: And I know everyone wouldn't do it, but a lot

796
00:39:09,721 --> 00:39:10,281
Speaker 1: of people would.

797
00:39:10,761 --> 00:39:13,441
Speaker 4: I know because they messaged me and I read comments

798
00:39:13,481 --> 00:39:16,441
Speaker 4: online and they say I would have done it, but

799
00:39:16,481 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 4: I would have done it better, and this is how

800
00:39:18,441 --> 00:39:19,401
Speaker 4: I would have done it.

801
00:39:19,481 --> 00:39:19,721
Speaker 1: You know.

802
00:39:19,841 --> 00:39:22,681
Speaker 4: So you can't really tell unless you're in the position

803
00:39:22,841 --> 00:39:25,161
Speaker 4: what you'd actually do in that circumstance.

804
00:39:25,281 --> 00:39:28,201
Speaker 1: But well, yeah, I don't think that you don't, but

805
00:39:28,281 --> 00:39:29,041
Speaker 1: you don't actually know.

806
00:39:29,201 --> 00:39:30,721
Speaker 2: I thought that was the pivotal question out of the

807
00:39:30,721 --> 00:39:33,081
Speaker 2: whole thing, Like, you know, when faced with the same situation,

808
00:39:33,161 --> 00:39:35,201
Speaker 2: do we all have this seed of larceny in us?

809
00:39:35,361 --> 00:39:36,521
Speaker 1: And we go and do it? You know?

810
00:39:36,961 --> 00:39:39,001
Speaker 2: And out of a time, I realized that very few

811
00:39:39,001 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: people would do it. A lot of people will talk

812
00:39:41,001 --> 00:39:44,201
Speaker 2: about it, particularly what they would do with the money

813
00:39:44,521 --> 00:39:47,401
Speaker 2: when it came to that stepping over the threshold and

814
00:39:47,481 --> 00:39:54,801
Speaker 2: in a sense becoming somebody else not so sure, Yeah

815
00:39:54,921 --> 00:39:55,881
Speaker 2: you stepped over it.

816
00:39:57,041 --> 00:39:59,521
Speaker 1: Why are you different? I don't know. I think it's

817
00:39:59,601 --> 00:40:00,601
Speaker 1: just a certain point.

818
00:40:00,801 --> 00:40:03,641
Speaker 4: I think a lot more people, especially the victim matters,

819
00:40:04,361 --> 00:40:06,841
Speaker 4: matters who it is so I think there's enough people

820
00:40:06,881 --> 00:40:10,121
Speaker 4: to hate banks who would actually do it and sort

821
00:40:10,161 --> 00:40:12,641
Speaker 4: of you know, like the equation online is in one

822
00:40:12,681 --> 00:40:13,881
Speaker 4: point six million for a year.

823
00:40:14,201 --> 00:40:15,041
Speaker 1: You know, you did well.

824
00:40:15,401 --> 00:40:17,961
Speaker 4: But of course I wasn't thinking about the equation at

825
00:40:17,961 --> 00:40:19,761
Speaker 4: the time, but ultimately I was.

826
00:40:19,961 --> 00:40:21,721
Speaker 1: You know, I think I told you why I stopped before.

827
00:40:21,801 --> 00:40:24,401
Speaker 4: I mean, ultimately I thought I was just adding to

828
00:40:24,441 --> 00:40:28,321
Speaker 4: my prison sentence every single transaction I made, So you know,

829
00:40:28,361 --> 00:40:31,161
Speaker 4: that's the reason I stopped. So I thought, well, he's

830
00:40:31,201 --> 00:40:32,921
Speaker 4: still quite young. You don't want to go to jail

831
00:40:32,961 --> 00:40:36,201
Speaker 4: for too long, so you know. But it wasn't because

832
00:40:36,801 --> 00:40:39,201
Speaker 4: you know, I felt remorse for the bank or anything

833
00:40:39,241 --> 00:40:41,561
Speaker 4: like that. Like in a lot of ways, I wish

834
00:40:41,641 --> 00:40:44,201
Speaker 4: I was a you know, souless entity so I could

835
00:40:44,281 --> 00:40:44,961
Speaker 4: just keep.

836
00:40:44,801 --> 00:40:47,441
Speaker 1: Going forever because you would do it again. Well, I

837
00:40:47,441 --> 00:40:49,641
Speaker 1: feel I deserve it, you know.

838
00:40:50,481 --> 00:40:56,241
Speaker 4: I reckon that society hates banks that much that if

839
00:40:56,281 --> 00:40:59,681
Speaker 4: an alternative comes along, it's feasible and people can do

840
00:40:59,721 --> 00:41:00,081
Speaker 4: it by.

841
00:41:00,001 --> 00:41:02,921
Speaker 1: Themselves, they will take it. But they don't go down, No,

842
00:41:02,921 --> 00:41:05,721
Speaker 1: they don't. There's that bank robbers, right.

843
00:41:06,041 --> 00:41:07,801
Speaker 2: You know a lot of people would fantasize about running

844
00:41:07,801 --> 00:41:09,561
Speaker 2: into a bank with a gun. Maybe they don't, but

845
00:41:10,161 --> 00:41:12,921
Speaker 2: some people do, but they never do it. People want

846
00:41:12,921 --> 00:41:15,881
Speaker 2: these highly charged moments where they're in control of their destiny,

847
00:41:15,921 --> 00:41:17,561
Speaker 2: where they do whatever, where they would like to have

848
00:41:17,601 --> 00:41:20,281
Speaker 2: all time and escape my hand, the life that I

849
00:41:20,321 --> 00:41:22,281
Speaker 2: kin'd of hate and these things I hate about myself,

850
00:41:22,321 --> 00:41:26,201
Speaker 2: you know, But they don't do it. And one thing

851
00:41:26,241 --> 00:41:28,881
Speaker 2: I never understood, and it bothered me a bit, to

852
00:41:28,921 --> 00:41:34,601
Speaker 2: be perfectly honest, your friends came along for this, all

853
00:41:34,681 --> 00:41:37,321
Speaker 2: this partying, all this stuff, gambling, the rest of it.

854
00:41:38,041 --> 00:41:40,641
Speaker 1: You were the one going to jail, and they.

855
00:41:40,481 --> 00:41:44,281
Speaker 2: Were happily singing at the table one day, Dan's going

856
00:41:44,321 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: to jail, but not tonight or whatever the song was.

857
00:41:47,161 --> 00:41:51,121
Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking, didn't they realize what was happening?

858
00:41:51,281 --> 00:41:55,081
Speaker 2: Didn't they realize that they were cheering you towards your demise.

859
00:41:56,241 --> 00:41:58,441
Speaker 4: The best thing that anyone ever told me was some

860
00:41:59,161 --> 00:42:03,041
Speaker 4: Spanish backpacker. He used to call me Jesus, and I'd

861
00:42:03,081 --> 00:42:05,041
Speaker 4: be like, what are you talking about? It? Like you

862
00:42:05,081 --> 00:42:07,881
Speaker 4: an idiot? What are you saying? Like I'm Jesus And

863
00:42:07,921 --> 00:42:11,881
Speaker 4: he goes, no, you're Jesus, And I'm like, mate, I'm

864
00:42:11,881 --> 00:42:14,281
Speaker 4: not Jesus. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

865
00:42:14,361 --> 00:42:16,361
Speaker 4: Just stop calling me Jesus. And he was, you know,

866
00:42:16,441 --> 00:42:19,321
Speaker 4: he was drunk and high and whatever. So he just

867
00:42:19,401 --> 00:42:21,841
Speaker 4: kept coming back at me all night. You know, hey,

868
00:42:21,841 --> 00:42:26,961
Speaker 4: there's Jesus. You're Jesus. You're nailing yourself to the cross,

869
00:42:27,481 --> 00:42:30,721
Speaker 4: so we can all party. That's what he said. And

870
00:42:30,761 --> 00:42:33,721
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, well, I still don't think I'm Jesus,

871
00:42:33,761 --> 00:42:35,601
Speaker 4: but I can see you're analogy. Now, I can see

872
00:42:35,601 --> 00:42:38,521
Speaker 4: what you what you mean by that. But the point

873
00:42:38,681 --> 00:42:41,321
Speaker 4: was I'm not a victim in any of these. You

874
00:42:41,361 --> 00:42:44,801
Speaker 4: know when people do something and then they look back

875
00:42:44,841 --> 00:42:47,241
Speaker 4: on it and they go, oh, I wish I didn't

876
00:42:47,281 --> 00:42:49,481
Speaker 4: do that. I was just you know, they made me

877
00:42:49,561 --> 00:42:51,801
Speaker 4: do it, or this made me do it. It's so weird.

878
00:42:52,801 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't operate like that. It's not it's

879
00:42:55,481 --> 00:42:57,921
Speaker 1: not okay for me. I'm like, I'm all.

880
00:42:57,801 --> 00:43:01,801
Speaker 4: About self responsibility. You go to take responsibility for your

881
00:43:01,841 --> 00:43:02,401
Speaker 4: own actions.

882
00:43:02,441 --> 00:43:06,401
Speaker 1: That's it. I can't understand how people just sit.

883
00:43:06,201 --> 00:43:08,761
Speaker 4: Back and go, oh, yeah, it was just that, and

884
00:43:08,881 --> 00:43:11,761
Speaker 4: you know they got me in you know, that was it. Yeah, okay,

885
00:43:12,001 --> 00:43:14,601
Speaker 4: there is a point where they try and get you.

886
00:43:15,041 --> 00:43:18,121
Speaker 4: But also, you have a bit of self responsibility in

887
00:43:18,121 --> 00:43:20,161
Speaker 4: that way. You got to go, you know, draw on

888
00:43:20,281 --> 00:43:22,561
Speaker 4: in the sand, move forward from it. Go No, No,

889
00:43:23,001 --> 00:43:25,761
Speaker 4: I was in that too. That was my responsibility. I've

890
00:43:25,801 --> 00:43:27,601
Speaker 4: got to move on. I've got to mend the bridge.

891
00:43:27,601 --> 00:43:30,081
Speaker 4: I've got to go forward and not look back and

892
00:43:30,121 --> 00:43:33,241
Speaker 4: not lament and not worry. It's fine. I'll just learn

893
00:43:33,281 --> 00:43:35,401
Speaker 4: from it and I'll move forward. That's it, you know.

894
00:43:35,521 --> 00:43:37,201
Speaker 1: I'm all about that. I'm not about going.

895
00:43:37,201 --> 00:43:40,201
Speaker 4: Oh you know, you know my dad died, and you know,

896
00:43:40,241 --> 00:43:41,681
Speaker 4: then this happened, and then this happened.

897
00:43:41,801 --> 00:43:44,521
Speaker 1: What a story? What a sob store. Well, I'm not

898
00:43:44,561 --> 00:43:45,721
Speaker 1: calling it a sob story.

899
00:43:45,721 --> 00:43:48,721
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that these are the milestones along the

900
00:43:48,841 --> 00:43:52,481
Speaker 2: journey which you can't change, and they did have an impact.

901
00:43:52,801 --> 00:43:56,041
Speaker 2: But I also see your father's influence as well in

902
00:43:56,081 --> 00:43:59,601
Speaker 2: the sense of atonement and taking responsibility, and I was

903
00:43:59,641 --> 00:44:02,441
Speaker 2: really that did kick in. I don't want to think

904
00:44:02,481 --> 00:44:05,641
Speaker 2: it's just because if you're in jail you could gamble.

905
00:44:06,441 --> 00:44:08,641
Speaker 4: Oh that's that was one of the one of the

906
00:44:08,681 --> 00:44:11,001
Speaker 4: good things about being in jail that you couldn't gamble.

907
00:44:11,041 --> 00:44:14,521
Speaker 4: But you know that's not true either, because you know

908
00:44:14,681 --> 00:44:17,201
Speaker 4: they've got racing dot Com on you know, twenty four

909
00:44:17,241 --> 00:44:19,561
Speaker 4: to seven there, and you know you can always get

910
00:44:19,561 --> 00:44:21,761
Speaker 4: a bet on this summer, so it's not really true.

911
00:44:22,001 --> 00:44:24,641
Speaker 2: I'm betting with cigarettes and so forth at everything, but

912
00:44:24,721 --> 00:44:25,801
Speaker 2: who's going to get released next?

913
00:44:25,881 --> 00:44:27,881
Speaker 1: Or anything? You can bet with real money, it doesn't matter.

914
00:44:27,881 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 4: They've got people, you know, they've got partners who are

915
00:44:30,961 --> 00:44:33,801
Speaker 4: putting on the bets, you know, and hey, I'm not

916
00:44:33,921 --> 00:44:34,401
Speaker 4: against that.

917
00:44:34,481 --> 00:44:35,881
Speaker 1: So we you're gambling in jail.

918
00:44:36,561 --> 00:44:39,281
Speaker 4: No, no, I didn't gamble in jail, but only because

919
00:44:40,161 --> 00:44:43,641
Speaker 4: I didn't want to get into the politics with people

920
00:44:43,681 --> 00:44:45,681
Speaker 4: who are going to rip my head off, you know

921
00:44:45,721 --> 00:44:48,121
Speaker 4: what I mean. Smart, Like you know, I've worked in

922
00:44:48,241 --> 00:44:51,041
Speaker 4: nightclubs and stuff, and like you you know, as soon

923
00:44:51,041 --> 00:44:53,761
Speaker 4: as you walk in, you know who the people are

924
00:44:54,121 --> 00:44:56,561
Speaker 4: who are going to cause trouble in there. And if

925
00:44:56,601 --> 00:44:58,401
Speaker 4: anyone came to me and was like, oh, you want

926
00:44:58,441 --> 00:45:00,241
Speaker 4: to do this tear, I was like, oh no, I.

927
00:45:00,161 --> 00:45:02,601
Speaker 1: Don't have any money. That's it. I can't you know,

928
00:45:02,641 --> 00:45:04,721
Speaker 1: I can't pay, so I don't want it, thanks very much.

929
00:45:05,481 --> 00:45:07,801
Speaker 4: But the point is if you get in with it,

930
00:45:08,481 --> 00:45:11,161
Speaker 4: playing a game with your life. These people don't stuff

931
00:45:11,201 --> 00:45:14,521
Speaker 4: around like This isn't like the taxi line on you know,

932
00:45:14,721 --> 00:45:17,881
Speaker 4: outside crown on It Sunday morning, where people have a

933
00:45:17,881 --> 00:45:18,801
Speaker 4: bit of a push and shove.

934
00:45:19,081 --> 00:45:20,481
Speaker 1: This is like straight into it.

935
00:45:20,681 --> 00:45:22,961
Speaker 4: I'm not ready to get my head caved in, you

936
00:45:22,961 --> 00:45:26,321
Speaker 4: know for some bullshit you know, bendigo raise five or

937
00:45:26,361 --> 00:45:29,161
Speaker 4: you know, and my partner or you know, someone I've

938
00:45:29,161 --> 00:45:31,881
Speaker 4: got on the outside, you know, misses the bus and

939
00:45:31,961 --> 00:45:34,441
Speaker 4: doesn't make it to the fucking tab to put the

940
00:45:34,481 --> 00:45:35,761
Speaker 4: money in the tab account.

941
00:45:35,881 --> 00:45:39,041
Speaker 1: Now, no, I'm not. I'm into risk, but not like that,

942
00:45:39,641 --> 00:45:41,401
Speaker 1: not dumb risk.

943
00:45:41,481 --> 00:45:47,801
Speaker 2: Well yeah, maybe that's so, But it did. It did

944
00:45:47,801 --> 00:45:49,801
Speaker 2: prevent you from gambling in there, and it gave you

945
00:45:49,841 --> 00:45:51,961
Speaker 2: some perspective on your gambling. And I guess you know,

946
00:45:51,961 --> 00:45:53,921
Speaker 2: most people coming out of jail come out with a plan.

947
00:45:54,001 --> 00:45:56,161
Speaker 2: They've had a moment of sobriety if it's been drugs

948
00:45:56,241 --> 00:45:59,121
Speaker 2: or alcohol, and they've got themselves together, taken up programs,

949
00:45:59,161 --> 00:46:01,121
Speaker 2: and they've got some lucidity about their life and they're

950
00:46:01,121 --> 00:46:04,161
Speaker 2: going to have a plan. And you came out and

951
00:46:04,681 --> 00:46:07,761
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't long before the temptation was there.

952
00:46:07,801 --> 00:46:08,641
Speaker 2: What actually happened?

953
00:46:09,641 --> 00:46:12,281
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I had to put I had to put

954
00:46:12,321 --> 00:46:14,521
Speaker 4: a lot of work into it. It's not like it's

955
00:46:14,521 --> 00:46:17,321
Speaker 4: not like it just changed overnight and then that's it, Like,

956
00:46:17,521 --> 00:46:20,921
Speaker 4: you know, I just learned about what my behavioral pattern was.

957
00:46:21,081 --> 00:46:24,281
Speaker 2: But also some of your old friends contacted you. Yeah, yeah,

958
00:46:24,281 --> 00:46:25,401
Speaker 2: a lot of my old friends did.

959
00:46:25,761 --> 00:46:26,201
Speaker 1: The friends.

960
00:46:26,281 --> 00:46:28,761
Speaker 4: I will say about the friends the friends at the time.

961
00:46:29,681 --> 00:46:31,241
Speaker 4: Can you imagine how crazy it was? So you so

962
00:46:31,321 --> 00:46:33,761
Speaker 4: you've got a group of friends and you discover that

963
00:46:33,761 --> 00:46:36,321
Speaker 4: you can transfer millions of dollars in your bank account,

964
00:46:36,401 --> 00:46:38,161
Speaker 4: you know, and people say, oh, you know, you can

965
00:46:38,241 --> 00:46:39,561
Speaker 4: only transfer six figures.

966
00:46:39,641 --> 00:46:40,601
Speaker 1: How does that make a minion?

967
00:46:40,841 --> 00:46:43,801
Speaker 4: Well, if you put in nine hundred thousand, and then

968
00:46:43,801 --> 00:46:46,161
Speaker 4: you put in another nine hundred, that's one point eight,

969
00:46:46,321 --> 00:46:48,521
Speaker 4: and then if you do it again, that's two point seven,

970
00:46:48,601 --> 00:46:50,361
Speaker 4: and then if you do it then that's three point six,

971
00:46:50,481 --> 00:46:51,881
Speaker 4: and that's how it turns into millions.

972
00:46:52,001 --> 00:46:53,641
Speaker 1: Right, So you can transfer.

973
00:46:53,321 --> 00:46:56,401
Speaker 4: Money up to nine hundred and ninety nine thousand, but

974
00:46:56,441 --> 00:46:58,401
Speaker 4: you can do it more than once. So I think

975
00:46:58,441 --> 00:47:02,321
Speaker 4: that's a misconception that sometimes people. So that's basically what happened. Right,

976
00:47:02,761 --> 00:47:05,161
Speaker 4: So then you show you friends that what do you do?

977
00:47:05,441 --> 00:47:08,681
Speaker 4: I mean, there was a strategy there, like it wasn't

978
00:47:08,881 --> 00:47:12,801
Speaker 4: It wasn't brains trust Google, think tank type stuff. But

979
00:47:12,841 --> 00:47:16,121
Speaker 4: there was a strategy, right. So I said to everyone

980
00:47:16,241 --> 00:47:19,521
Speaker 4: that we are just going to have the time of

981
00:47:19,561 --> 00:47:23,801
Speaker 4: our lives. And I will never say that any of

982
00:47:23,841 --> 00:47:27,081
Speaker 4: you were involved, because to me, what's the point of

983
00:47:27,161 --> 00:47:30,361
Speaker 4: dragging someone else down with you. I mean, it was

984
00:47:30,401 --> 00:47:35,321
Speaker 4: my card, my name, that was just me. Now it

985
00:47:35,361 --> 00:47:38,641
Speaker 4: happened someone else in my group of friends, and they

986
00:47:38,681 --> 00:47:41,641
Speaker 4: said that, then I'd go along for the ride because

987
00:47:41,681 --> 00:47:44,081
Speaker 4: I know that they know what they're dealing with. They

988
00:47:44,681 --> 00:47:47,841
Speaker 4: got their head around. But didn't anyone say damn mate,

989
00:47:48,041 --> 00:47:50,201
Speaker 4: Yeah they did. They did, and they said I can't

990
00:47:50,241 --> 00:47:52,641
Speaker 4: come with you, Dan, because I think you're going to

991
00:47:52,641 --> 00:47:55,041
Speaker 4: get in real trouble for this. You know, I love you,

992
00:47:55,321 --> 00:47:58,241
Speaker 4: but I'm not in it amount, you know. Yeah, people

993
00:47:58,241 --> 00:48:02,001
Speaker 4: did absolutely, And yeah, I mean I respected that at

994
00:48:02,001 --> 00:48:03,721
Speaker 4: the time one hundred percent. Like I didn't go, oh,

995
00:48:03,801 --> 00:48:07,041
Speaker 4: you know you or whatever, you know, like I said, yeah,

996
00:48:07,121 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 4: no worries, like I understand it's not.

997
00:48:09,401 --> 00:48:12,561
Speaker 1: For everyone, but yeah, the most remarkable one. Man.

998
00:48:12,681 --> 00:48:14,361
Speaker 2: Let's not single people that I don't want to but

999
00:48:14,401 --> 00:48:17,001
Speaker 2: I mean I think, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean,

1000
00:48:17,801 --> 00:48:22,561
Speaker 2: in particular was your close, close friend. He really encouraged

1001
00:48:22,601 --> 00:48:25,721
Speaker 2: you to take it to the instagree, and then he

1002
00:48:25,801 --> 00:48:27,801
Speaker 2: ends up a prison guard.

1003
00:48:29,121 --> 00:48:31,241
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, but I mean, look at the end of

1004
00:48:31,281 --> 00:48:35,361
Speaker 4: the day, I mean he might change the names. He

1005
00:48:35,481 --> 00:48:38,601
Speaker 4: might have a real career there now. So at the

1006
00:48:38,641 --> 00:48:40,681
Speaker 4: end of the day, I mean, I'm not into that either.

1007
00:48:40,721 --> 00:48:43,881
Speaker 4: I'm not into like putting someone in, you know, the

1008
00:48:44,001 --> 00:48:47,801
Speaker 4: situation and now they're you know, a manager a prison

1009
00:48:48,001 --> 00:48:48,681
Speaker 4: you know what I mean.

1010
00:48:48,801 --> 00:48:49,361
Speaker 1: Like, I'm not.

1011
00:48:50,241 --> 00:48:52,321
Speaker 2: No, it's not about that. But all I'm saying is

1012
00:48:52,361 --> 00:48:56,161
Speaker 2: that you prepared to go along to this place where

1013
00:48:56,361 --> 00:48:57,881
Speaker 2: you know, you kind of knew your mates wouldn't be

1014
00:48:58,041 --> 00:49:00,281
Speaker 2: and you expressly didn't want them to stand with you.

1015
00:49:00,401 --> 00:49:02,281
Speaker 2: And you know, I think as a friend, i'd be

1016
00:49:02,281 --> 00:49:03,961
Speaker 2: saying and I'd be one of those I'd say, Dan,

1017
00:49:04,001 --> 00:49:05,041
Speaker 2: I can't come with you.

1018
00:49:05,281 --> 00:49:05,761
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know.

1019
00:49:05,881 --> 00:49:07,841
Speaker 2: It's like when you came to me and said, can

1020
00:49:07,881 --> 00:49:11,921
Speaker 2: you help me atone for this? And I didn't want

1021
00:49:11,961 --> 00:49:15,281
Speaker 2: to Initially, like all my friends had some information about this,

1022
00:49:15,321 --> 00:49:17,121
Speaker 2: and they all said, listen, the bank's giving it up,

1023
00:49:17,161 --> 00:49:20,361
Speaker 2: they're moving on, you know, And I didn't want to

1024
00:49:20,361 --> 00:49:22,481
Speaker 2: be that person. I didn't want to be that person,

1025
00:49:22,521 --> 00:49:25,201
Speaker 2: and alt I didn't, but I just wonder, you know,

1026
00:49:25,641 --> 00:49:27,601
Speaker 2: how you feel about those relationships now.

1027
00:49:28,601 --> 00:49:30,881
Speaker 1: Do you still talk to people from that era? Yeah,

1028
00:49:30,921 --> 00:49:31,361
Speaker 1: for sure.

1029
00:49:31,441 --> 00:49:34,201
Speaker 4: I mean it's whoever I don't speak to.

1030
00:49:34,721 --> 00:49:37,521
Speaker 1: It's not my decision that we don't speak anymore.

1031
00:49:37,881 --> 00:49:43,041
Speaker 4: Basically, they a lot of people would be scared because,

1032
00:49:43,361 --> 00:49:45,681
Speaker 4: like I mean, there was a guy in our friends group.

1033
00:49:46,401 --> 00:49:47,481
Speaker 1: He works at the court.

1034
00:49:48,001 --> 00:49:51,721
Speaker 4: You know, Like it's not like they would turn around

1035
00:49:51,761 --> 00:49:54,921
Speaker 4: and be like, oh, that's okay, Like he'd lose his job.

1036
00:49:55,161 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 4: You know, guy's a chiropractor. Like he doesn't want that

1037
00:49:58,681 --> 00:50:01,281
Speaker 4: in the news or anywhere. Like I understand that, Like

1038
00:50:02,361 --> 00:50:05,921
Speaker 4: there's this whole work cancel culture. Now, you know, you

1039
00:50:06,041 --> 00:50:10,321
Speaker 4: instantly if you're you know, if you're involved in something

1040
00:50:10,521 --> 00:50:13,281
Speaker 4: you know it's unsavory. Oh that's it for you. You're

1041
00:50:13,321 --> 00:50:17,641
Speaker 4: sort of done. So you understand how people are. I mean,

1042
00:50:17,681 --> 00:50:18,241
Speaker 4: I get that.

1043
00:50:18,321 --> 00:50:20,321
Speaker 2: Do you feel like that that you're sort of done

1044
00:50:20,321 --> 00:50:22,761
Speaker 2: that you can't a lot of things that are closed

1045
00:50:22,761 --> 00:50:22,961
Speaker 2: to you?

1046
00:50:23,041 --> 00:50:24,921
Speaker 4: Now, Oh yeah, there's a lot of things are closed,

1047
00:50:24,961 --> 00:50:27,441
Speaker 4: but there's a whole lot that's open though, you know

1048
00:50:27,481 --> 00:50:27,921
Speaker 4: what I mean.

1049
00:50:28,441 --> 00:50:31,841
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I mean, you've got to just take

1050
00:50:31,881 --> 00:50:34,201
Speaker 1: the good with the bad. Yeah. Sure. If I send a.

1051
00:50:34,161 --> 00:50:38,481
Speaker 4: Resume to know the hotel, they're going to be like,

1052
00:50:39,441 --> 00:50:42,761
Speaker 4: piss off, we don't want you working here. If I

1053
00:50:42,761 --> 00:50:44,521
Speaker 4: sent one to the tab and said, hey, can I

1054
00:50:44,561 --> 00:50:48,081
Speaker 4: be a tab operator? Pretty sure i'd know the answer.

1055
00:50:48,681 --> 00:50:51,121
Speaker 4: If I wanted to work for the government, I doubt

1056
00:50:51,201 --> 00:50:54,041
Speaker 4: I could. If I wanted to be a police officer, I.

1057
00:50:54,081 --> 00:50:56,121
Speaker 1: Doubt I could. So there's a lot of things that

1058
00:50:56,161 --> 00:50:57,001
Speaker 1: are sort of off the.

1059
00:50:56,961 --> 00:51:00,161
Speaker 4: Table, but there are a lot of things that are

1060
00:51:00,161 --> 00:51:01,241
Speaker 4: on the table as well.

1061
00:51:01,401 --> 00:51:03,841
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It's

1062
00:51:04,281 --> 00:51:06,721
Speaker 1: it's just the nature of it what it is.

1063
00:51:06,801 --> 00:51:11,001
Speaker 2: I think the outcome is still in play in my opinion.

1064
00:51:11,081 --> 00:51:14,721
Speaker 2: It's what you do with that experience and information and

1065
00:51:14,761 --> 00:51:18,121
Speaker 2: insight that makes a difference now, because you could have

1066
00:51:18,201 --> 00:51:22,401
Speaker 2: just gone on telling the same true story that didn't

1067
00:51:22,681 --> 00:51:26,001
Speaker 2: ever reveal your true motivation and the issue that began this.

1068
00:51:26,081 --> 00:51:28,241
Speaker 1: You could have kept doing that, but you've had the

1069
00:51:28,281 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: courage not to do that.

1070
00:51:30,601 --> 00:51:34,481
Speaker 2: And I hope and sincerely pray that you turn this

1071
00:51:34,761 --> 00:51:38,921
Speaker 2: into something positive, And I think it's around government advocacy

1072
00:51:39,201 --> 00:51:40,801
Speaker 2: because you do bring a.

1073
00:51:40,721 --> 00:51:41,841
Speaker 1: New approach to it.

1074
00:51:41,881 --> 00:51:44,361
Speaker 2: And I like the fact that you're honest about what

1075
00:51:44,441 --> 00:51:49,001
Speaker 2: gambling really is. I just don't buy the normal hand

1076
00:51:49,041 --> 00:51:53,001
Speaker 2: ringing of the established anti gambling experts that gambling is

1077
00:51:53,081 --> 00:51:56,041
Speaker 2: crack cocaine. You have one punt and your dead sort

1078
00:51:56,081 --> 00:51:57,881
Speaker 2: of thing, and it's a pernicious thing. You'll lose all

1079
00:51:57,961 --> 00:52:00,921
Speaker 2: possible motivation and ability to resist it.

1080
00:52:01,041 --> 00:52:05,721
Speaker 1: That's just garbage. It's not working. No, it's not working.

1081
00:52:05,841 --> 00:52:07,801
Speaker 4: And I think you said it's really what you do

1082
00:52:07,881 --> 00:52:10,401
Speaker 4: with it, because that is very that's very Australian.

1083
00:52:10,641 --> 00:52:12,721
Speaker 1: You know, that's the castle, but it's what you've done

1084
00:52:12,761 --> 00:52:15,201
Speaker 1: with it. And that's exactly you know, you go.

1085
00:52:15,201 --> 00:52:20,081
Speaker 4: Back to Dale, Carrigan, you know, you know who's three

1086
00:52:20,201 --> 00:52:23,921
Speaker 4: high View, Crescent Cooler. I think it is. It's very Australians.

1087
00:52:24,481 --> 00:52:26,721
Speaker 4: They're not just rissyles. It's what you do with it.

1088
00:52:26,921 --> 00:52:28,361
Speaker 4: Like I mean, I could turn around and go, oh

1089
00:52:28,401 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 4: I can't get a job now, you know, it's all shit,

1090
00:52:31,441 --> 00:52:32,761
Speaker 4: Oh my god, my life's over.

1091
00:52:33,041 --> 00:52:35,761
Speaker 1: I know, you just move on. The fact is I.

1092
00:52:35,721 --> 00:52:39,521
Speaker 4: Know a lot about gambling because I've spent the last

1093
00:52:40,041 --> 00:52:43,721
Speaker 4: thirty years around it, so I know what it is.

1094
00:52:44,601 --> 00:52:46,681
Speaker 4: And there's a lot of people talking about it who

1095
00:52:46,681 --> 00:52:49,921
Speaker 4: don't actually know what it is, you know, so the

1096
00:52:49,961 --> 00:52:53,481
Speaker 4: Prime Minister's won, but also other people, so other people

1097
00:52:53,521 --> 00:52:57,641
Speaker 4: in research, they don't actually know what it's like to gamble.

1098
00:52:58,241 --> 00:53:01,321
Speaker 4: And you know, like all respect to the people who

1099
00:53:01,641 --> 00:53:04,081
Speaker 4: you know talking about it now, like Tim Costal, he's

1100
00:53:04,121 --> 00:53:07,081
Speaker 4: worked in the anti gam the industry for ages, but

1101
00:53:08,281 --> 00:53:11,881
Speaker 4: it is saying the same lines. It's like breakfast TV,

1102
00:53:12,121 --> 00:53:15,001
Speaker 4: the same lines over and over again, and.

1103
00:53:15,201 --> 00:53:16,161
Speaker 1: People just switched off.

1104
00:53:16,241 --> 00:53:19,241
Speaker 2: Well because listen, it's like the Nancy Reagan's just say

1105
00:53:19,281 --> 00:53:23,201
Speaker 2: no to drugs, right, Okay, that's so simplistic and ridiculous.

1106
00:53:23,241 --> 00:53:25,641
Speaker 2: The fact is people do enjoy to change this state

1107
00:53:25,681 --> 00:53:28,801
Speaker 2: of consciousness. They do enjoy to gamble, They do enjoy

1108
00:53:28,841 --> 00:53:32,281
Speaker 2: these things. It's about doing it in a mindful way

1109
00:53:32,881 --> 00:53:38,041
Speaker 2: where we're aware of the drivers and how enmeshed we

1110
00:53:38,081 --> 00:53:39,801
Speaker 2: are in a system. But it's pretty much said the

1111
00:53:39,841 --> 00:53:42,881
Speaker 2: governments in agreement with the gambling industry, this shall happen.

1112
00:53:42,961 --> 00:53:46,801
Speaker 2: So we won't see national bands, we won't see more funding,

1113
00:53:46,801 --> 00:53:50,121
Speaker 2: we won't see scrutiny on is.

1114
00:53:50,081 --> 00:53:52,441
Speaker 1: This appropriate for kids? Kind of issues like you're.

1115
00:53:52,281 --> 00:53:55,881
Speaker 4: Raising well, the big thing that everyone says, you know,

1116
00:53:55,881 --> 00:53:57,921
Speaker 4: if you read the card and you read all these papers.

1117
00:53:57,961 --> 00:54:02,761
Speaker 4: They say that Australia and the government have a gambly addiction, right,

1118
00:54:02,801 --> 00:54:07,561
Speaker 4: that's what they say, But they don't actually understand what

1119
00:54:07,601 --> 00:54:10,841
Speaker 4: that means, you know, So listening to the prom is

1120
00:54:10,881 --> 00:54:13,841
Speaker 4: to talk about it, talks about you know, like there

1121
00:54:13,881 --> 00:54:16,561
Speaker 4: was a letter sort of read to him and you

1122
00:54:16,561 --> 00:54:19,321
Speaker 4: know he was like, oh, we feel very sorry for

1123
00:54:19,521 --> 00:54:21,561
Speaker 4: you know, that father and that mother and all that,

1124
00:54:21,641 --> 00:54:23,921
Speaker 4: and you know, but as you can see, gambling's been

1125
00:54:23,961 --> 00:54:26,281
Speaker 4: around for a very very long time, and you know,

1126
00:54:26,361 --> 00:54:28,961
Speaker 4: it's obviously an age old issue that we've got to

1127
00:54:29,001 --> 00:54:32,521
Speaker 4: deal with here in Australia. But the point is that

1128
00:54:33,401 --> 00:54:37,361
Speaker 4: it wasn't always tied to the freedom we are TV market.

1129
00:54:37,961 --> 00:54:42,001
Speaker 4: It's progressed since then. But when you've got a gambling problem,

1130
00:54:42,361 --> 00:54:46,281
Speaker 4: you don't actually think it's a problem until it's probably

1131
00:54:46,441 --> 00:54:46,961
Speaker 4: too late.

1132
00:54:47,401 --> 00:54:47,641
Speaker 1: Right.

1133
00:54:47,721 --> 00:54:51,041
Speaker 4: So the government now is still in the point where

1134
00:54:51,041 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 4: it's all still a bit sexy because it's like, oh, well,

1135
00:54:54,401 --> 00:54:57,681
Speaker 4: it gives us cash and it's a great revenue raiser

1136
00:54:58,321 --> 00:55:00,321
Speaker 4: and yeah, we've got to keep a few people happy,

1137
00:55:00,801 --> 00:55:03,761
Speaker 4: but ultimately, you know, it's just about the victims. So

1138
00:55:03,801 --> 00:55:07,681
Speaker 4: we've got to help the victims, but they don't realize

1139
00:55:07,681 --> 00:55:11,801
Speaker 4: that it actually erodes society.

1140
00:55:15,601 --> 00:55:17,401
Speaker 2: What would you say, I mean, obviously, people like I

1141
00:55:17,441 --> 00:55:18,681
Speaker 2: said before, I've looked at this story.

1142
00:55:18,721 --> 00:55:20,801
Speaker 1: It's gone around the world. It's a huge it's an

1143
00:55:20,881 --> 00:55:22,121
Speaker 1: urban legend.

1144
00:55:22,161 --> 00:55:26,001
Speaker 2: Now, how do you feel about particularly with the understanding

1145
00:55:26,041 --> 00:55:28,801
Speaker 2: you have now you've got this clarity about it, and

1146
00:55:28,801 --> 00:55:31,601
Speaker 2: you look at the way that story is presented, do

1147
00:55:31,681 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 2: you think it's If you had a chance to tell

1148
00:55:33,481 --> 00:55:36,361
Speaker 2: it again, would you tell it this way or would

1149
00:55:36,361 --> 00:55:37,761
Speaker 2: you tell it the way it's been told?

1150
00:55:39,281 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: I think that hindsight, it's a beautiful thing.

1151
00:55:41,481 --> 00:55:45,401
Speaker 4: And he always understands things more from perspective, and you

1152
00:55:45,481 --> 00:55:48,961
Speaker 4: give think space and you come to terms with them.

1153
00:55:49,561 --> 00:55:53,321
Speaker 4: Because I don't dwell on the past. I'm actually fine

1154
00:55:53,361 --> 00:55:55,921
Speaker 4: with the way that everything's played out. I don't get

1155
00:55:56,001 --> 00:55:57,761
Speaker 4: up in the morning and go, oh, wish I didn't

1156
00:55:57,761 --> 00:55:59,801
Speaker 4: do this or wish I didn't do that. Okay, I

1157
00:55:59,801 --> 00:56:02,161
Speaker 4: mean I wouldn't have met the people I know now

1158
00:56:02,481 --> 00:56:05,561
Speaker 4: if I didn't do that thing. I wouldn't know who

1159
00:56:05,641 --> 00:56:09,321
Speaker 4: my true friends are now without doing that thing, and

1160
00:56:09,401 --> 00:56:12,321
Speaker 4: I don't have this desire to be It surprised me

1161
00:56:12,361 --> 00:56:15,601
Speaker 4: how far this story's gone, and I don't have this

1162
00:56:15,681 --> 00:56:18,681
Speaker 4: desire to be known worldwide. I don't want to walk

1163
00:56:18,721 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 4: into somewhere and everyone know who I am. In fact,

1164
00:56:22,521 --> 00:56:25,881
Speaker 4: i'd actually like it if that wasn't the case, because

1165
00:56:26,001 --> 00:56:28,281
Speaker 4: I'm not you know, I'm not interested in living that.

1166
00:56:28,441 --> 00:56:33,201
Speaker 4: You know, back when I was twenty nine, one hundred percent, I.

1167
00:56:33,201 --> 00:56:35,721
Speaker 1: Was ready for the movie. I was ready for everything.

1168
00:56:36,041 --> 00:56:38,681
Speaker 4: You know, I was going to get some crazy you know,

1169
00:56:38,921 --> 00:56:40,521
Speaker 4: boy band sort of numbers.

1170
00:56:40,561 --> 00:56:42,161
Speaker 1: You know, I was going to go real well.

1171
00:56:42,681 --> 00:56:46,401
Speaker 4: But now I'm not done, Like my hair is thinning,

1172
00:56:46,761 --> 00:56:49,001
Speaker 4: but it's all over. You know, for me, it's not

1173
00:56:49,121 --> 00:56:52,041
Speaker 4: about that. Life's not about that stuff anymore. So it's

1174
00:56:52,041 --> 00:56:54,761
Speaker 4: almost like it's a little bit of an inconvenience if

1175
00:56:54,801 --> 00:56:56,401
Speaker 4: it does blow up, because then.

1176
00:56:56,281 --> 00:56:59,041
Speaker 1: I'll have you know, I have people where I live.

1177
00:56:58,921 --> 00:57:01,481
Speaker 4: At home, going oh, I don't want you to go

1178
00:57:01,561 --> 00:57:04,561
Speaker 4: there and do that. You know that doesn't seem like,

1179
00:57:04,681 --> 00:57:07,361
Speaker 4: you know, that's very productive for our life. But in

1180
00:57:07,441 --> 00:57:09,841
Speaker 4: saying that, I'm not complaining about it, it's just no,

1181
00:57:09,921 --> 00:57:10,841
Speaker 4: you've never complained it.

1182
00:57:10,881 --> 00:57:13,641
Speaker 2: You've never complained and as I say, I mean, you've

1183
00:57:13,681 --> 00:57:16,601
Speaker 2: taken control of your story because you know, when I

1184
00:57:16,601 --> 00:57:19,081
Speaker 2: look back, and I realized that as much as I

1185
00:57:19,201 --> 00:57:21,481
Speaker 2: was trying to tell your story, you were always telling it,

1186
00:57:21,881 --> 00:57:25,921
Speaker 2: and you did not understand or fully grasp the significance

1187
00:57:25,961 --> 00:57:28,481
Speaker 2: of it. And it's taken this time of reflection to

1188
00:57:28,561 --> 00:57:31,801
Speaker 2: get where you are now. That to me is a

1189
00:57:31,841 --> 00:57:34,201
Speaker 2: wonderful thing, you know, And I think if it's to

1190
00:57:34,321 --> 00:57:38,801
Speaker 2: understand how that can help somebody else, not be a victim,

1191
00:57:39,121 --> 00:57:41,841
Speaker 2: but at least make your experience help somebody else have

1192
00:57:41,961 --> 00:57:44,801
Speaker 2: some clarity that it's a pretty good outcome.

1193
00:57:44,881 --> 00:57:47,161
Speaker 1: And I think, I look at you now, you look

1194
00:57:47,241 --> 00:57:49,321
Speaker 1: so much better than when I first even met you.

1195
00:57:49,521 --> 00:57:49,721
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1196
00:57:49,761 --> 00:57:51,921
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you were not in a good place,

1197
00:57:52,001 --> 00:57:53,921
Speaker 2: my friend. And you came to me and you said,

1198
00:57:54,561 --> 00:57:56,041
Speaker 2: the reason why I'm doing this is I want to

1199
00:57:56,081 --> 00:57:59,521
Speaker 2: get my life back under my control. Here we are

1200
00:57:59,601 --> 00:58:02,361
Speaker 2: ten years down the track. What does life look like?

1201
00:58:03,241 --> 00:58:04,121
Speaker 2: Are you still gambling?

1202
00:58:04,481 --> 00:58:05,001
Speaker 1: Is it in control?

1203
00:58:05,161 --> 00:58:05,321
Speaker 4: Role?

1204
00:58:06,521 --> 00:58:08,841
Speaker 1: Where are we after that ten year period? Yeah?

1205
00:58:08,841 --> 00:58:13,401
Speaker 4: Well, I just understand. I think anyone who has an addiction,

1206
00:58:14,521 --> 00:58:18,001
Speaker 4: you either don't get the chance to sit back and

1207
00:58:18,041 --> 00:58:20,401
Speaker 4: look at it from afar like you're always in it,

1208
00:58:21,281 --> 00:58:22,921
Speaker 4: and then if you don't do that, you end up

1209
00:58:23,321 --> 00:58:26,561
Speaker 4: killing yourself, or you end up doing something stupid, or

1210
00:58:26,561 --> 00:58:29,201
Speaker 4: you end up in jail, whatever it is. You know,

1211
00:58:29,241 --> 00:58:34,241
Speaker 4: people have got a gambi addiction. You're either bankrupt, in jail,

1212
00:58:35,641 --> 00:58:39,521
Speaker 4: or dead or all three. So on two out of

1213
00:58:39,521 --> 00:58:44,281
Speaker 4: three right, not bad odds right, yeah, not bad, but

1214
00:58:44,841 --> 00:58:49,161
Speaker 4: I'm glad. But the point is that it's a negative

1215
00:58:49,281 --> 00:58:55,121
Speaker 4: ending usually Now, unless you have the fortitude or the

1216
00:58:55,161 --> 00:58:57,881
Speaker 4: internal ability to be able to absorb all that and

1217
00:58:57,921 --> 00:59:00,281
Speaker 4: then come out the other end, then you're done.

1218
00:59:01,241 --> 00:59:01,961
Speaker 1: That's it for you.

1219
00:59:02,561 --> 00:59:07,321
Speaker 4: Now through like work with people who've gambled, and you know,

1220
00:59:07,401 --> 00:59:10,681
Speaker 4: going and going and helping. And we did a documentary

1221
00:59:10,721 --> 00:59:14,521
Speaker 4: about a gentleman that passed away because of gambling, and like,

1222
00:59:14,681 --> 00:59:17,961
Speaker 4: it's just speaking to people who have an issue with

1223
00:59:18,001 --> 00:59:21,321
Speaker 4: it or have had an issue with it. It is

1224
00:59:22,801 --> 00:59:26,721
Speaker 4: quite an insidious thing, right, And I think society's view

1225
00:59:26,761 --> 00:59:30,281
Speaker 4: of gambling, if you're not a gambler, you don't understand

1226
00:59:30,281 --> 00:59:31,041
Speaker 4: about gambling.

1227
00:59:31,641 --> 00:59:32,681
Speaker 1: Your view of it.

1228
00:59:32,561 --> 00:59:36,441
Speaker 4: Is like the Simpsons, Right, So Marge gets a gambling problem.

1229
00:59:37,081 --> 00:59:39,361
Speaker 4: Homer says, I think you've got a problem money, and

1230
00:59:39,401 --> 00:59:41,041
Speaker 4: she goes, what are you talking about? I don't have

1231
00:59:41,081 --> 00:59:43,881
Speaker 4: any issues, no problem. Now he's spending a lot of

1232
00:59:43,881 --> 00:59:46,641
Speaker 4: time with the casino. I think you've got a problem,

1233
00:59:46,881 --> 00:59:49,361
Speaker 4: and she goes, no, no, I'm fine, and then she

1234
00:59:49,361 --> 00:59:51,641
Speaker 4: brings back sixty dollars and home.

1235
00:59:51,681 --> 00:59:52,681
Speaker 1: He goes, I am got a problem.

1236
00:59:52,721 --> 00:59:55,361
Speaker 4: You're fine, right, Since she goes back there and eventually

1237
00:59:55,361 --> 00:59:59,201
Speaker 4: obviously she loses at all, and then she says, you

1238
00:59:59,241 --> 01:00:01,161
Speaker 4: know what, Homer, I think I do have a problem.

1239
01:00:01,761 --> 01:00:03,321
Speaker 1: I think I need some serious help.

1240
01:00:03,921 --> 01:00:07,841
Speaker 4: And Homer says, no, no, no, diorry about that costs money.

1241
01:00:08,281 --> 01:00:11,201
Speaker 4: Just don't do it anymore, right, And that's pretty much

1242
01:00:11,521 --> 01:00:14,241
Speaker 4: how society sort of looks at it, and then it

1243
01:00:14,281 --> 01:00:15,481
Speaker 4: gets sort of distorted.

1244
01:00:16,961 --> 01:00:19,481
Speaker 2: Well, ultimately, you've got to be true to oneself. And

1245
01:00:19,521 --> 01:00:22,921
Speaker 2: here's the test. A person comes to you and says, Dan,

1246
01:00:23,521 --> 01:00:25,961
Speaker 2: I've gone to the ATM and the same things available

1247
01:00:25,961 --> 01:00:26,161
Speaker 2: to me.

1248
01:00:26,721 --> 01:00:28,641
Speaker 1: I like a punt, I like a bit of risk.

1249
01:00:30,161 --> 01:00:32,601
Speaker 1: What do I do? The YouTube you.

1250
01:00:33,841 --> 01:00:38,281
Speaker 2: Would say, go for it one day, only chance, knock

1251
01:00:38,321 --> 01:00:41,441
Speaker 2: yourself out, But the real you doesn't say that.

1252
01:00:42,041 --> 01:00:44,001
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what does he say?

1253
01:00:44,041 --> 01:00:46,721
Speaker 4: Now? Well, with the whole gambling thing, and this goes

1254
01:00:46,761 --> 01:00:49,441
Speaker 4: for anyone who's addicted to food or whatever it is,

1255
01:00:50,001 --> 01:00:50,761
Speaker 4: all you're going to do is.

1256
01:00:50,761 --> 01:00:51,681
Speaker 1: Remove the desire.

1257
01:00:52,321 --> 01:00:54,321
Speaker 4: As soon as you feel like you're going without, you're

1258
01:00:54,361 --> 01:00:57,401
Speaker 4: in big trouble, big trouble. If you abstain from something,

1259
01:00:58,081 --> 01:01:00,641
Speaker 4: then you're gone like that. That is not the way

1260
01:01:00,641 --> 01:01:03,881
Speaker 4: to deal with it. The way is to tackle the desire.

1261
01:01:04,681 --> 01:01:09,561
Speaker 4: So the way I basically didn't gamble anymore is that

1262
01:01:10,001 --> 01:01:13,681
Speaker 4: I went to the start of my life when I

1263
01:01:13,881 --> 01:01:17,241
Speaker 4: wasn't a gambler, you know, because I don't think I'm

1264
01:01:17,281 --> 01:01:19,081
Speaker 4: a gambler. That's not how I say, you know, I

1265
01:01:19,121 --> 01:01:21,681
Speaker 4: say I'm Dan, you know, like, yeah, I like to

1266
01:01:21,721 --> 01:01:22,521
Speaker 4: gamble sometimes.

1267
01:01:22,601 --> 01:01:24,161
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't we all, you know what I mean? Like,

1268
01:01:24,201 --> 01:01:25,161
Speaker 1: it's not I.

1269
01:01:25,121 --> 01:01:28,321
Speaker 4: Don't identify myself as that society, would you know, like

1270
01:01:28,441 --> 01:01:30,361
Speaker 4: after you know the pod, you listen.

1271
01:01:30,161 --> 01:01:30,681
Speaker 1: To the podcast.

1272
01:01:30,761 --> 01:01:33,481
Speaker 4: Yet I was a gambler, you know, Like, But the

1273
01:01:33,521 --> 01:01:36,001
Speaker 4: point is there was a time when I didn't gamble.

1274
01:01:36,281 --> 01:01:38,921
Speaker 4: So I just went back there and I went to

1275
01:01:39,321 --> 01:01:43,161
Speaker 4: you know, the the guy who used to build mini

1276
01:01:43,161 --> 01:01:45,481
Speaker 4: golf courses in the backyard, you know what I mean,

1277
01:01:45,721 --> 01:01:52,721
Speaker 4: And I differentiated the difference between false pleasure and genuine pleasure, right,

1278
01:01:52,761 --> 01:01:55,681
Speaker 4: so that used to give me absolute genuine pleasure to

1279
01:01:55,721 --> 01:01:57,001
Speaker 4: build those minigolf courses.

1280
01:01:57,241 --> 01:01:57,641
Speaker 1: Loved it.

1281
01:01:57,961 --> 01:02:02,521
Speaker 4: Had the cans of Campbell soup, you know, hollowed out,

1282
01:02:02,561 --> 01:02:04,321
Speaker 4: and used to use them as windmills.

1283
01:02:05,161 --> 01:02:07,921
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tried. I tried, wasn't you know.

1284
01:02:07,961 --> 01:02:11,321
Speaker 4: But I had these big sort of iron things where

1285
01:02:11,361 --> 01:02:14,481
Speaker 4: I can pack the soil and you know, make it like,

1286
01:02:14,601 --> 01:02:16,561
Speaker 4: you know, like it was a real mini golf course.

1287
01:02:16,681 --> 01:02:18,761
Speaker 4: He used to love it, used to do it for hours.

1288
01:02:19,361 --> 01:02:23,641
Speaker 4: But the point is that was my last link to

1289
01:02:23,761 --> 01:02:28,041
Speaker 4: genuine pleasure, Okay, used to I didn't get anything out

1290
01:02:28,081 --> 01:02:31,561
Speaker 4: of it other than an accomplishment of doing something. So

1291
01:02:31,601 --> 01:02:35,881
Speaker 4: all this other stuff is all fabricated pleasure. It's all

1292
01:02:35,881 --> 01:02:40,281
Speaker 4: stuff the mister whippie like, you know, the the overeating, like,

1293
01:02:40,361 --> 01:02:44,201
Speaker 4: it's all examples of just false pleasure. But what happens

1294
01:02:44,281 --> 01:02:48,681
Speaker 4: is when they mix the genuine pleasure with the false pleasure. Right.

1295
01:02:48,801 --> 01:02:50,201
Speaker 1: So you know, for.

1296
01:02:50,121 --> 01:02:53,201
Speaker 4: Example, I would say sports a bit bet with mates, right,

1297
01:02:54,041 --> 01:02:55,761
Speaker 4: So you love your mates, right, You want to be

1298
01:02:55,801 --> 01:02:57,921
Speaker 4: a part of life with your mates. You don't want

1299
01:02:57,921 --> 01:03:00,281
Speaker 4: to miss out on your stuff with your mates. So

1300
01:03:00,321 --> 01:03:04,281
Speaker 4: it's perfect, right because it's mixing genuine pleasure with the

1301
01:03:04,321 --> 01:03:08,121
Speaker 4: false high that the gambling gives you, right, or you know,

1302
01:03:08,281 --> 01:03:11,721
Speaker 4: like it's been having for years with food, right, But

1303
01:03:11,841 --> 01:03:14,761
Speaker 4: once you understand that and have a relationship with that

1304
01:03:15,241 --> 01:03:18,841
Speaker 4: and go, is this a real pleasure or is it

1305
01:03:18,961 --> 01:03:21,961
Speaker 4: just like do I know this person just because we

1306
01:03:22,041 --> 01:03:23,161
Speaker 4: go to the races together?

1307
01:03:23,641 --> 01:03:24,561
Speaker 1: Or is there more to it?

1308
01:03:24,881 --> 01:03:29,361
Speaker 4: If I removed the pineapple donut? What I still sit

1309
01:03:29,441 --> 01:03:30,241
Speaker 4: there with this dude?

1310
01:03:30,361 --> 01:03:32,401
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? If you really question it

1311
01:03:32,441 --> 01:03:34,881
Speaker 1: and go, why the hell am I doing this? Right?

1312
01:03:35,401 --> 01:03:36,561
Speaker 1: But if you really.

1313
01:03:36,321 --> 01:03:38,481
Speaker 4: Tap into that, you've got to be in the position

1314
01:03:38,521 --> 01:03:40,721
Speaker 4: where you can ask yourself the question. Though, like if

1315
01:03:40,761 --> 01:03:44,201
Speaker 4: you're high and in the loop, there's no chance you're

1316
01:03:44,201 --> 01:03:46,161
Speaker 4: going to be able to ask this question. You know,

1317
01:03:46,361 --> 01:03:49,001
Speaker 4: you need to be able to stop the said behavior

1318
01:03:49,081 --> 01:03:52,641
Speaker 4: for however long. And this is yeah, this doesn't necessarily

1319
01:03:52,681 --> 01:03:56,201
Speaker 4: just mean gambling. This is like you know, getting fat,

1320
01:03:56,481 --> 01:03:57,041
Speaker 4: or this.

1321
01:03:57,081 --> 01:04:00,121
Speaker 2: Is really insightfuled and it's really insightl It's the insight that.

1322
01:04:00,081 --> 01:04:03,321
Speaker 1: Only comes with age. Welcome to your middle age. It's fantastic.

1323
01:04:03,361 --> 01:04:06,321
Speaker 2: But I think the key question I've dealt with this

1324
01:04:06,361 --> 01:04:09,481
Speaker 2: with other people who have dealt with addictions, and it's

1325
01:04:09,481 --> 01:04:13,081
Speaker 2: about replacing that joy and how do you find.

1326
01:04:12,841 --> 01:04:15,401
Speaker 1: Something that's going to meet that same high and the

1327
01:04:15,521 --> 01:04:16,321
Speaker 1: heights of the joy.

1328
01:04:16,481 --> 01:04:18,481
Speaker 2: Yeah, like imagine, like imagine like when you are when

1329
01:04:18,561 --> 01:04:22,521
Speaker 2: you know, like the YouTube's present and I present it

1330
01:04:22,561 --> 01:04:27,801
Speaker 2: as well, here's this infinite money. If money will solve problems,

1331
01:04:28,161 --> 01:04:31,241
Speaker 2: then this infinite money, who knows what can happen?

1332
01:04:31,641 --> 01:04:33,761
Speaker 1: That joy must have been extraordinary.

1333
01:04:34,441 --> 01:04:38,961
Speaker 4: And what it is is basically everything that makes you

1334
01:04:39,041 --> 01:04:43,281
Speaker 4: feel bad afterwards is not a genuine pleasure. It's a

1335
01:04:43,321 --> 01:04:48,521
Speaker 4: false pleasure, right because genuine pleasure you can only feel good.

1336
01:04:48,801 --> 01:04:50,801
Speaker 4: You can only look back on it and go, that

1337
01:04:50,921 --> 01:04:53,241
Speaker 4: was the best. That's why it works so well because

1338
01:04:53,241 --> 01:04:55,681
Speaker 4: there might have been times when the genuine gets mixed

1339
01:04:55,681 --> 01:04:58,041
Speaker 4: with the false, like you might have been with your

1340
01:04:58,041 --> 01:05:00,481
Speaker 4: best mate who you loved and you were doing lines

1341
01:05:00,481 --> 01:05:03,961
Speaker 4: of cocaine and that might have been the best ninety life. Right.

1342
01:05:04,321 --> 01:05:06,481
Speaker 4: But the point is it works so well because it's

1343
01:05:06,521 --> 01:05:10,001
Speaker 4: mixed together. Right, So if you can't differentiate, but the

1344
01:05:10,041 --> 01:05:12,761
Speaker 4: difference between that, you know, if you can't just go,

1345
01:05:13,201 --> 01:05:15,081
Speaker 4: I loved my mate, he was the best.

1346
01:05:15,481 --> 01:05:17,001
Speaker 1: Because x y Z's head.

1347
01:05:17,241 --> 01:05:20,241
Speaker 4: If it always involves cocaine, then ultimately it wasn't true.

1348
01:05:21,081 --> 01:05:21,681
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

1349
01:05:22,081 --> 01:05:24,801
Speaker 4: And you'll know that once you get further along, you'll

1350
01:05:24,801 --> 01:05:26,121
Speaker 4: know that because you'll be able to look back on

1351
01:05:26,161 --> 01:05:28,881
Speaker 4: it and go, Okay, yeah, I didn't really love him

1352
01:05:28,921 --> 01:05:29,361
Speaker 4: that much.

1353
01:05:29,841 --> 01:05:31,521
Speaker 1: I just loved what we did together.

1354
01:05:31,761 --> 01:05:33,681
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because I mean, this could be the moment where

1355
01:05:33,721 --> 01:05:36,121
Speaker 2: you acknowledge someone who's been quite influential on You're not

1356
01:05:36,201 --> 01:05:38,121
Speaker 2: me because it's taken up a long time for you

1357
01:05:38,161 --> 01:05:40,361
Speaker 2: to get to this understanding, and I think you've had

1358
01:05:40,401 --> 01:05:44,721
Speaker 2: some really high quality discussions with someone close in your

1359
01:05:44,761 --> 01:05:47,001
Speaker 2: life that's helped you get to this point.

1360
01:05:47,201 --> 01:05:49,161
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about that? No?

1361
01:05:49,281 --> 01:05:52,521
Speaker 4: Really, no, I didn't think so, but yeah, I mean,

1362
01:05:52,641 --> 01:05:54,841
Speaker 4: it all takes it, all takes work. I'll say that,

1363
01:05:55,041 --> 01:05:58,961
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. It's like I'm always wary

1364
01:05:59,121 --> 01:06:01,641
Speaker 4: of like I will talk about me one hundred percent

1365
01:06:01,721 --> 01:06:04,681
Speaker 4: all the time, but it's when it's like when bringing

1366
01:06:04,721 --> 01:06:06,441
Speaker 4: other peace, I'm very respectful of that.

1367
01:06:06,521 --> 01:06:07,921
Speaker 1: Like I won't just bring someone in.

1368
01:06:08,201 --> 01:06:10,481
Speaker 4: If they don't want to be in, then I don't

1369
01:06:10,481 --> 01:06:13,361
Speaker 4: bring them in, you know, of course, yeah, of course,

1370
01:06:13,441 --> 01:06:16,481
Speaker 4: Like I've come to these realizations based on you know,

1371
01:06:16,561 --> 01:06:20,641
Speaker 4: my experiences after you jail and the glitch and all that.

1372
01:06:21,081 --> 01:06:24,081
Speaker 4: But the point is that if I can get there.

1373
01:06:25,361 --> 01:06:28,601
Speaker 4: Anyone can get there. Like if you're going through an

1374
01:06:28,601 --> 01:06:32,041
Speaker 4: addiction right now and think you can't get there, like

1375
01:06:32,121 --> 01:06:33,441
Speaker 4: you literally can't.

1376
01:06:33,761 --> 01:06:34,601
Speaker 1: Anyone can't.

1377
01:06:35,281 --> 01:06:39,841
Speaker 4: It's just whether you choose to stick out, not the addiction,

1378
01:06:40,841 --> 01:06:42,001
Speaker 4: the getting over it.

1379
01:06:42,361 --> 01:06:46,681
Speaker 1: So you're not gambling, no, not drinking. No, I don't drink.

1380
01:06:46,721 --> 01:06:47,321
Speaker 1: I don't drink.

1381
01:06:47,361 --> 01:06:51,401
Speaker 4: I don't gamble like not so the excesses that are

1382
01:06:51,481 --> 01:06:54,241
Speaker 4: used to you know what I mean I mentioned to

1383
01:06:54,281 --> 01:06:54,841
Speaker 4: you before.

1384
01:06:55,121 --> 01:06:56,121
Speaker 1: There's this whole thing.

1385
01:06:56,001 --> 01:06:59,681
Speaker 4: About, oh, you can't do anything again for the rest

1386
01:06:59,681 --> 01:07:04,041
Speaker 4: of your life. That is prison. It's prison. You're putting

1387
01:07:04,041 --> 01:07:08,161
Speaker 4: yourself in prison. What I do is I removed desire.

1388
01:07:08,881 --> 01:07:11,041
Speaker 4: I no longer have desire. I can go and sit

1389
01:07:11,081 --> 01:07:14,721
Speaker 4: in a tab with my friends all day and not bet.

1390
01:07:15,321 --> 01:07:18,681
Speaker 1: That is like unheard of. They look at me and

1391
01:07:18,721 --> 01:07:20,161
Speaker 1: they go, who are you?

1392
01:07:20,521 --> 01:07:22,201
Speaker 2: But is that like sitting next to the smoker and

1393
01:07:22,241 --> 01:07:25,001
Speaker 2: inhaling their nine watching all the sounds.

1394
01:07:25,241 --> 01:07:27,321
Speaker 4: But I mean, if you're not having the bets, if

1395
01:07:27,361 --> 01:07:30,361
Speaker 4: it's not impacting your pocket, then it's not the same thing.

1396
01:07:30,721 --> 01:07:32,681
Speaker 4: I know because I can I can tell you the

1397
01:07:32,761 --> 01:07:36,001
Speaker 4: exact part of my brain that ignites when it's happening,

1398
01:07:36,321 --> 01:07:37,601
Speaker 4: so I know exactly.

1399
01:07:37,281 --> 01:07:37,841
Speaker 1: What it is.

1400
01:07:38,721 --> 01:07:41,601
Speaker 4: But the point is you don't live your life in

1401
01:07:41,641 --> 01:07:45,361
Speaker 4: a bubble. That's not a solution. It's not a solution. Yeah,

1402
01:07:45,401 --> 01:07:47,921
Speaker 4: you identify the people who are going to take you

1403
01:07:48,001 --> 01:07:50,921
Speaker 4: off course and don't have your best interests at hart.

1404
01:07:51,441 --> 01:07:52,561
Speaker 1: There's plenty of those.

1405
01:07:52,921 --> 01:07:55,521
Speaker 4: There's plenty of those who literally won't sit there with

1406
01:07:55,601 --> 01:07:57,801
Speaker 4: you and if you don't have a line, then you're

1407
01:07:57,801 --> 01:08:00,481
Speaker 4: dead to them. There's plenty of those people. But what

1408
01:08:00,561 --> 01:08:03,201
Speaker 4: it is is differentiating those people. Because there's good in

1409
01:08:03,241 --> 01:08:05,681
Speaker 4: all your connections and all your friendships. But the point

1410
01:08:05,801 --> 01:08:08,841
Speaker 4: is that you don't need that stuff as a principle.

1411
01:08:09,361 --> 01:08:11,241
Speaker 1: I'm not saying ban enerthy.

1412
01:08:11,561 --> 01:08:15,921
Speaker 4: I'm saying, just understand why you do it, and then

1413
01:08:15,961 --> 01:08:19,241
Speaker 4: that will help you to know, you know, don't just

1414
01:08:19,281 --> 01:08:22,241
Speaker 4: think that you're a week loser just because you're doing

1415
01:08:22,281 --> 01:08:25,841
Speaker 4: something like it's psychology with this stuff. It goes back

1416
01:08:25,881 --> 01:08:29,161
Speaker 4: to like caveman stuff, like we love to press buttons

1417
01:08:29,281 --> 01:08:32,241
Speaker 4: and like you know, do things for ourselves. We love

1418
01:08:32,321 --> 01:08:34,761
Speaker 4: to do that, and that's what all this stuff is.

1419
01:08:35,361 --> 01:08:39,201
Speaker 4: It's all based on that there's people smarter than us

1420
01:08:39,241 --> 01:08:41,881
Speaker 4: that are planning all this stuff. And they're making money

1421
01:08:41,921 --> 01:08:46,041
Speaker 4: off it, right, But you know they call gambling entertainment rights.

1422
01:08:46,641 --> 01:08:49,441
Speaker 4: This is the biggest, like amazing thing in the world.

1423
01:08:49,481 --> 01:08:54,321
Speaker 4: They call it entertainment. Sixty percent of the cash comes

1424
01:08:54,321 --> 01:08:57,441
Speaker 4: from people spending too much, you know what I mean, Like,

1425
01:08:57,481 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 4: that's how much comes from it. It's not people betting

1426
01:09:00,881 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 4: ten bucks on a Friday night. It's people getting over

1427
01:09:04,841 --> 01:09:07,481
Speaker 4: the top and involve and at the end of the day,

1428
01:09:07,481 --> 01:09:10,281
Speaker 4: they don't really want to talk about it because it's embarrassing,

1429
01:09:10,601 --> 01:09:11,081
Speaker 4: don't They don't.

1430
01:09:11,241 --> 01:09:13,441
Speaker 1: That's not embarrassing. That's what we want to talk about.

1431
01:09:13,841 --> 01:09:17,121
Speaker 4: But the point is, right, they call it entertainment. If

1432
01:09:17,161 --> 01:09:21,881
Speaker 4: you go and film fifty people at the Penrith Panthers

1433
01:09:22,001 --> 01:09:27,561
Speaker 4: or playing the Pokey's right, you will see a bunch

1434
01:09:27,601 --> 01:09:34,521
Speaker 4: of unkept, tired, anxiety ridden people who are.

1435
01:09:34,161 --> 01:09:38,321
Speaker 1: Not having a good time. They might tell you they are.

1436
01:09:38,361 --> 01:09:41,961
Speaker 4: But if you look in their eyes, they're not okay, right,

1437
01:09:42,281 --> 01:09:44,281
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you why because you can go and

1438
01:09:44,321 --> 01:09:47,001
Speaker 4: film them, and then I can go to the footy

1439
01:09:47,081 --> 01:09:50,561
Speaker 4: on the weekend, I could go anywhere people go to

1440
01:09:50,601 --> 01:09:52,801
Speaker 4: have a good time, and you're going to be able

1441
01:09:52,841 --> 01:09:57,841
Speaker 4: to tell me without knowing anything about them. You're going

1442
01:09:57,921 --> 01:10:00,001
Speaker 4: to be able to tell me which ones the gamblers are.

1443
01:10:00,761 --> 01:10:04,001
Speaker 4: And that's the real message. Huh.

1444
01:10:04,081 --> 01:10:04,681
Speaker 1: I've been looking in.

1445
01:10:04,681 --> 01:10:08,641
Speaker 2: Your eyes for ten years, Dan, and I see something different.

1446
01:10:09,681 --> 01:10:15,041
Speaker 2: I see a sparkle, I see something different. Do we

1447
01:10:15,081 --> 01:10:20,321
Speaker 2: eventually leave atm Boy and that Dan Saunders behind. Do

1448
01:10:20,361 --> 01:10:24,281
Speaker 2: we eventually recognize that the story was slightly different, at

1449
01:10:24,401 --> 01:10:28,641
Speaker 2: least in the motivation of it. And do we try

1450
01:10:28,721 --> 01:10:31,361
Speaker 2: to let people know who look at that story to

1451
01:10:31,441 --> 01:10:34,641
Speaker 2: say it's not the way, or don't make the same

1452
01:10:34,681 --> 01:10:36,921
Speaker 2: mistake I made, or be aware?

1453
01:10:36,961 --> 01:10:37,760
Speaker 1: What is your.

1454
01:10:37,641 --> 01:10:39,881
Speaker 2: Message to someone who looks at the story which is

1455
01:10:39,881 --> 01:10:42,161
Speaker 2: now a global thing. You're no longer at it. I

1456
01:10:42,201 --> 01:10:45,601
Speaker 2: don't own it anymore. It's now a thing of the world.

1457
01:10:46,121 --> 01:10:48,281
Speaker 2: I don't think it's part of the solution. I think

1458
01:10:48,321 --> 01:10:51,961
Speaker 2: it's reinforcing the problem. As if gambling is a way

1459
01:10:52,001 --> 01:10:56,521
Speaker 2: to a miraculous future, something's going to change your life fundamentally.

1460
01:10:57,361 --> 01:10:59,241
Speaker 2: You're not going to be mediocre anymore. You're going to

1461
01:10:59,241 --> 01:11:03,561
Speaker 2: be a winner and your experience I mean when it

1462
01:11:03,561 --> 01:11:06,521
Speaker 2: becomes a loser eventually in gambling, well.

1463
01:11:06,441 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 4: I mean that you know they say the house always wins,

1464
01:11:08,921 --> 01:11:11,721
Speaker 4: and I think that that's the way the government, you know,

1465
01:11:11,761 --> 01:11:15,601
Speaker 4: the House, the House in Canberra feels about it as well.

1466
01:11:16,441 --> 01:11:17,521
Speaker 1: But you got to understand that.

1467
01:11:17,601 --> 01:11:21,361
Speaker 4: You know, like, yeah, the house can always win, but

1468
01:11:21,441 --> 01:11:24,121
Speaker 4: occasionally a shark comes along and cleans you up. You know,

1469
01:11:24,241 --> 01:11:25,961
Speaker 4: like you talk about carry back up. You know, he

1470
01:11:26,041 --> 01:11:29,361
Speaker 4: bankrupted a few casinos back in the day. It is doable.

1471
01:11:29,641 --> 01:11:32,801
Speaker 4: It's not like, you know, it's always you know, it's

1472
01:11:32,841 --> 01:11:35,561
Speaker 4: always going to be the way. You know, I believe

1473
01:11:35,561 --> 01:11:38,281
Speaker 4: their business model, you know, is ultimately flawed, you know,

1474
01:11:38,321 --> 01:11:41,521
Speaker 4: because they don't pay the winners. You know, people who

1475
01:11:41,561 --> 01:11:45,601
Speaker 4: win consistently, they cut them off. But you don't reckon

1476
01:11:45,641 --> 01:11:49,001
Speaker 4: someone's going to come up with some idea and go, okay,

1477
01:11:49,041 --> 01:11:51,441
Speaker 4: well I'm going to find all these people they cut

1478
01:11:51,481 --> 01:11:54,321
Speaker 4: off and we're going to turn all the losing accounts

1479
01:11:54,361 --> 01:11:56,801
Speaker 4: into the winning accounts. You don't reckon someone's going to

1480
01:11:56,801 --> 01:12:00,081
Speaker 4: do that on a global scale. Now they might try

1481
01:12:00,121 --> 01:12:02,961
Speaker 4: and stop them, but ultimately, you know, with things like

1482
01:12:03,001 --> 01:12:05,401
Speaker 4: the blockchain and all sorts of things, you're not going

1483
01:12:05,441 --> 01:12:06,841
Speaker 4: to be able to know what's coming. They're not going

1484
01:12:06,921 --> 01:12:09,961
Speaker 4: to know what hit. This is dangerous talk, Dan. We've

1485
01:12:10,001 --> 01:12:11,441
Speaker 4: just got you through because this is.

1486
01:12:12,201 --> 01:12:13,561
Speaker 2: But you're right, and I think the point is the

1487
01:12:13,601 --> 01:12:15,441
Speaker 2: addiction to risk, the addiction to game, the addiction to

1488
01:12:16,401 --> 01:12:19,241
Speaker 2: whatever it is, doesn't go away. You understand your name it,

1489
01:12:19,441 --> 01:12:22,401
Speaker 2: you live with it, and what does life look like

1490
01:12:22,681 --> 01:12:23,680
Speaker 2: from here on for you?

1491
01:12:24,361 --> 01:12:26,361
Speaker 4: Look, I think you know like you ask me what

1492
01:12:26,401 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 4: people get from the story or what I want people

1493
01:12:28,761 --> 01:12:32,921
Speaker 4: to understand from the story. The beauty about stories is

1494
01:12:33,601 --> 01:12:36,361
Speaker 4: I can have an intention about a story, or I

1495
01:12:36,401 --> 01:12:39,081
Speaker 4: can tell you what I think it is, but ultimately

1496
01:12:39,601 --> 01:12:42,401
Speaker 4: it's up to you what you make of it. Ask Jesus.

1497
01:12:42,881 --> 01:12:46,041
Speaker 4: There's plenty of interpretations of that story, right. The point

1498
01:12:46,161 --> 01:12:50,881
Speaker 4: is that I tell my story like transparently. I don't

1499
01:12:51,601 --> 01:12:55,521
Speaker 4: have any attachment as to what you or anyone else

1500
01:12:55,561 --> 01:12:56,161
Speaker 4: gets from it.

1501
01:12:56,761 --> 01:12:59,881
Speaker 1: I'm just telling it. I'm a man in the world and.

1502
01:12:59,801 --> 01:13:03,001
Speaker 4: I've been through his easy experiences and it's maybe who

1503
01:13:03,001 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 4: I am today. And you might think I'm an idiot,

1504
01:13:06,201 --> 01:13:09,761
Speaker 4: and that's fine. That's for you to feel like. It's

1505
01:13:09,801 --> 01:13:13,481
Speaker 4: not a problem to me. It doesn't affect my moving

1506
01:13:13,521 --> 01:13:16,801
Speaker 4: forward in the world. I don't have an attachment to

1507
01:13:16,841 --> 01:13:19,561
Speaker 4: how you feel about me. But the point is that

1508
01:13:19,961 --> 01:13:23,161
Speaker 4: there might be something in my story that you can

1509
01:13:23,561 --> 01:13:26,081
Speaker 4: relate to your own life. You might be doing a

1510
01:13:26,201 --> 01:13:29,241
Speaker 4: job that you don't believe in, there is another way

1511
01:13:29,401 --> 01:13:32,361
Speaker 4: you can stop doing it. And if you're ultimately not

1512
01:13:32,481 --> 01:13:35,641
Speaker 4: scared about not having any money for a while or

1513
01:13:35,881 --> 01:13:37,241
Speaker 4: being seen as a loser for.

1514
01:13:37,201 --> 01:13:38,961
Speaker 1: A while, you can change that.

1515
01:13:38,961 --> 01:13:41,201
Speaker 4: That's the biggest thing that I hope that people get

1516
01:13:41,201 --> 01:13:43,521
Speaker 4: from the story is that if you don't like the

1517
01:13:43,561 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 4: course of your life, you can go, well, I don't

1518
01:13:46,721 --> 01:13:49,241
Speaker 4: actually like this, I don't want to be a part

1519
01:13:49,281 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 4: of it anymore.

1520
01:13:50,121 --> 01:13:51,841
Speaker 1: I'm going to draw a line in the sand, and

1521
01:13:51,881 --> 01:13:53,001
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that anymore.

1522
01:13:54,041 --> 01:13:55,521
Speaker 2: I think it's a perfect place to stop, you know,

1523
01:13:55,641 --> 01:13:58,001
Speaker 2: to be honest, and I want to thank you for

1524
01:13:58,201 --> 01:14:01,401
Speaker 2: your friendship over this decade and trust in telling this story,

1525
01:14:01,401 --> 01:14:06,401
Speaker 2: because if I hadn't had this conversation, the earlier stories

1526
01:14:06,401 --> 01:14:08,801
Speaker 2: would have bugged me to my grave because I never

1527
01:14:08,881 --> 01:14:09,441
Speaker 2: understood them.

1528
01:14:09,441 --> 01:14:11,641
Speaker 1: I never understood why such a nice guy as you.

1529
01:14:11,641 --> 01:14:14,361
Speaker 2: I've seen so many crooks go to this path, but

1530
01:14:14,401 --> 01:14:17,881
Speaker 2: their crooks and their career criminals who that's what their

1531
01:14:17,961 --> 01:14:18,361
Speaker 2: choice is.

1532
01:14:18,401 --> 01:14:19,361
Speaker 1: But you never chose that.

1533
01:14:19,441 --> 01:14:21,201
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that you got through at this

1534
01:14:21,281 --> 01:14:25,761
Speaker 2: stage with the insight, just to settle it. I think

1535
01:14:25,761 --> 01:14:28,321
Speaker 2: that's a completion of this story and I'm really glad

1536
01:14:28,321 --> 01:14:28,521
Speaker 2: for that.

1537
01:14:28,521 --> 01:14:30,801
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Ah Nora as well.

1538
01:14:30,801 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 4: And look, Adam, I really feel that there was really

1539
01:14:33,761 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 4: no one There was really no one else to tell

1540
01:14:35,721 --> 01:14:37,961
Speaker 4: this story. I mean, yeah, you were reluctant at the

1541
01:14:38,001 --> 01:14:40,961
Speaker 4: start to tell because you were so worried about what

1542
01:14:41,001 --> 01:14:43,001
Speaker 4: was going to happen to me. But I think at

1543
01:14:43,001 --> 01:14:45,680
Speaker 4: a certain point you understood that I wanted to tell

1544
01:14:45,721 --> 01:14:47,241
Speaker 4: the story and that was my right.

1545
01:14:47,361 --> 01:14:48,401
Speaker 1: I was able to tell the.

1546
01:14:48,361 --> 01:14:52,201
Speaker 4: Story, and you know, I don't feel like anyone else

1547
01:14:52,321 --> 01:14:54,081
Speaker 4: would have been able to bring it to light the

1548
01:14:54,121 --> 01:14:55,081
Speaker 4: way that you did.

1549
01:14:55,321 --> 01:14:55,961
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the story.

1550
01:14:55,961 --> 01:14:58,720
Speaker 2: At the same time, I was overwhelmed by my own

1551
01:14:59,321 --> 01:15:00,801
Speaker 2: perception of it, which was.

1552
01:15:01,361 --> 01:15:05,441
Speaker 1: The golden ticket. Yeah, magical thing. Why this, you know?

1553
01:15:05,521 --> 01:15:07,721
Speaker 2: And I think that's I think what we've got to

1554
01:15:07,881 --> 01:15:11,081
Speaker 2: now is a very human explanation for it, which is

1555
01:15:11,201 --> 01:15:14,201
Speaker 2: useful for other people who are examining their own motivations

1556
01:15:14,241 --> 01:15:16,081
Speaker 2: for going into all kinds of situations.

1557
01:15:16,121 --> 01:15:17,201
Speaker 1: I think it's a life lesson.

1558
01:15:17,521 --> 01:15:19,801
Speaker 2: Nothing we say on this podcasts going to affect the

1559
01:15:19,841 --> 01:15:21,561
Speaker 2: perception of the Dan Saunder as they know.

1560
01:15:22,601 --> 01:15:23,201
Speaker 1: I don't care.

1561
01:15:24,041 --> 01:15:26,121
Speaker 2: It's about what the twenty four hours a day you

1562
01:15:26,201 --> 01:15:28,041
Speaker 2: live in and what you do from here.

1563
01:15:28,161 --> 01:15:29,521
Speaker 1: I'm going to be watching very closely.

1564
01:15:29,841 --> 01:15:32,161
Speaker 2: I don't think you'll be looking outside the bulls Head

1565
01:15:32,161 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 2: tavern that wangerd with a hot ATM card.

1566
01:15:35,401 --> 01:15:36,841
Speaker 1: No, I mean that's right.

1567
01:15:36,881 --> 01:15:39,441
Speaker 4: I mean it's you live and learn and you just

1568
01:15:39,481 --> 01:15:42,801
Speaker 4: go through these experiences and ye, there's not a point

1569
01:15:42,801 --> 01:15:44,881
Speaker 4: where I go I wish I didn't do that, because

1570
01:15:44,881 --> 01:15:47,720
Speaker 4: it's made me who I am today, and who knows,

1571
01:15:47,761 --> 01:15:49,841
Speaker 4: maybe I'm going to be able to help you know,

1572
01:15:50,241 --> 01:15:53,321
Speaker 4: people who you know, they might be eighteen, they might

1573
01:15:53,361 --> 01:15:56,561
Speaker 4: be sort of you know, getting right into trouble. Like

1574
01:15:56,641 --> 01:16:00,201
Speaker 4: if I was eighteen and I had someone with the

1575
01:16:00,241 --> 01:16:03,441
Speaker 4: amount of experience I have in gambling, and I don't

1576
01:16:03,441 --> 01:16:04,961
Speaker 4: even have to tell them not to do it. I

1577
01:16:05,161 --> 01:16:07,681
Speaker 4: can just say what will happen if they continue to

1578
01:16:07,721 --> 01:16:10,601
Speaker 4: do it? You know, it's not even about don't do

1579
01:16:10,681 --> 01:16:13,881
Speaker 4: it anymore. I feel like that's a bad message as well,

1580
01:16:13,961 --> 01:16:16,281
Speaker 4: because it's like, what do we want to do as humans?

1581
01:16:16,801 --> 01:16:18,361
Speaker 4: Everything that people tell us not to do?

1582
01:16:18,601 --> 01:16:22,001
Speaker 2: That was Daniel Saunders, the original ATM boy Watch Out

1583
01:16:22,001 --> 01:16:25,921
Speaker 2: for our film coming soon. I think he's found peace

1584
01:16:25,961 --> 01:16:29,201
Speaker 2: and purpose from sharing his story, and others may benefit

1585
01:16:29,281 --> 01:16:33,281
Speaker 2: from his experience and the insight that he's gained. I

1586
01:16:33,321 --> 01:16:36,681
Speaker 2: find that gratifying because I was never comfortable with my

1587
01:16:36,841 --> 01:16:39,721
Speaker 2: role in getting him locked up. Now, if you have

1588
01:16:39,761 --> 01:16:42,201
Speaker 2: a problem with gambling or risk, please reach out for

1589
01:16:42,241 --> 01:16:44,961
Speaker 2: some help. We put some links that may be useful

1590
01:16:45,001 --> 01:16:47,961
Speaker 2: in the description, but if you have something you'd like

1591
01:16:48,001 --> 01:16:50,401
Speaker 2: to get off your chest, like Dan did, drop me

1592
01:16:50,401 --> 01:16:54,401
Speaker 2: an email at Adam Shand writer at gmail dot com.

1593
01:16:54,561 --> 01:16:57,561
Speaker 2: This has been real crime with Adam Shand. Thanks for listening.