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Speaker 1: You'll welcome this. Businesses will be mandata to use cash

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Speaker 1: as part of new rules which come into effect from

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six. More than one and a half million Australians,

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Speaker 1: which isn't a lot really in the scheme of things

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Speaker 1: still use cash though, to make about eighty percent of

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Speaker 1: their purchases, but there is growing concern businesses are abandoning

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Speaker 1: cash as more people utilize digital payment methods. Now, the

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Speaker 1: Treasurers launched an inquiry to work out how to mandate

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Speaker 1: businesses to accept cash for essential goods and services like

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Speaker 1: groceries and fuel, the opposition saying it's nothing more than

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Speaker 1: a thought bubble. But next year the government will receive

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Speaker 1: recommendations on how to implement the cash mandate. The new

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Speaker 1: rules to start in twenty twenty six. Robert Barwick, who

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Speaker 1: has researched director for the Australian Citizens Party, I've spoken

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Speaker 1: with Robert about this many times over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years. I know will be in favor of this,

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Speaker 1: I imagine. So anyway, Robert, good.

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Speaker 2: Morning, morning, Matthew.

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Speaker 3: How are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm really well, thank you. So this is something you've

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Speaker 1: called for cash to continue now having it mandated in

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Speaker 1: essential need businesses. Seems like a very good idea, a

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Speaker 1: good start.

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Speaker 2: That's the line. It is a good start. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: go far enough, but we'll talk about that in a second.

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Speaker 2: The positive, the positive is that it's a step, definitely

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Speaker 2: a step in the right direction. It draws a line

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Speaker 2: in the stand below which banks will never be able

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Speaker 2: to fulfill their fantasy of eradicating cash. And believe me,

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Speaker 2: they have wanted to eradicate cash. They would love a

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Speaker 2: world where every single transactions go through their computers. Right

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Speaker 2: and so, now, based on this decision, which is the

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Speaker 2: government's response to a bill that two independents Andrew g

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Speaker 2: and Bob Catter put up earlier in the year to

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Speaker 2: require businesses to accept cash now at least by designating

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Speaker 2: the businesses in essential sectors such as food and fuel,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, we now know that cash will always have

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Speaker 2: to be supported in the economy, including by the bank.

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Speaker 2: So that is very positive.

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Speaker 1: Why doesn't it go far enough?

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Speaker 2: Well, because if you think about it, the statistics you

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Speaker 2: just cited, then it's important people listen to the statistics

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Speaker 2: closer that the bank's claim and the RBA claims. So

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Speaker 2: it's one and a half million Australians use cash for

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Speaker 2: and as you said, that doesn't seem that many use

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Speaker 2: cash for eighty percent of their transactions. What that means.

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Speaker 2: What that means is there's a lot more astratiums we

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Speaker 2: use some level of cash. Right. We all have to

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Speaker 2: use cash for something, and the banks have made this

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Speaker 2: harder and harder to obtain by virtue of their branch

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Speaker 2: closures and ripping out ATMs and small businesses. It's a

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Speaker 2: it's not an imposition on them to mandate that they

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Speaker 2: all accept cash because unfortunately, in this Jim Chalmer's decision,

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Speaker 2: small business will be exempt from the mandate. It's not

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Speaker 2: an imposition on them to accept cash if the banks

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Speaker 2: are also required to maintain branches where the small businesses

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Speaker 2: can bank and their cash and get floats.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: The real issue here that caused the problem is the

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Speaker 2: bank's closing their branches and the government needs to be

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Speaker 2: prepared to do more to put the acid on the

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Speaker 2: banks to do that. Now they're also talking about that

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Speaker 2: this is a this is a parallel process with this

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Speaker 2: cash thing. But I think you could have a proper

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Speaker 2: mandate for all businesses to accept cash and take responsibility

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Speaker 2: providing the infrastructure for cash to be processed.

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Speaker 1: Do we need also at the same time to tackle

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Speaker 1: the card fee that is charged at FPUs machines.

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Speaker 2: Well for sure. And this is you know, this is

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Speaker 2: the bank's motivation right there. They went from just in

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Speaker 2: the last few years, I mean, it's mind blowing. They

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Speaker 2: went from the cumulative fees flowing into the banks of

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Speaker 2: a few hundred million dollars to something like four billion

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Speaker 2: dollars just in fees from people using cards flows into

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Speaker 2: the banks. Why wouldn't they want everyone to have to

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Speaker 2: use cards? Right? So the government there and there's a

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Speaker 2: parallel process again in Parliament where that's being pushed. I

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Speaker 2: just think the government has to be prepared to take

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Speaker 2: the banks on and say, look, you've got a business

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Speaker 2: model where you think that if you just put if

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Speaker 2: you just quip the ticket on everything, you can just

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Speaker 2: sit there and let the money come rolling in. And

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Speaker 2: that's why our banks are among the most profitable in

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Speaker 2: the world. Why do they have to be among the

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Speaker 2: most profitable in the world. Why don't they just be

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Speaker 2: normally profitable banks and make sure they provide a proper

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Speaker 2: service for everybody without gouging every chance they get.

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Speaker 1: What happens to all that profit? Is it just returned

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Speaker 1: to shareholders? Is that? Is that it and obviously paying

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Speaker 1: the monumental salaries that the bank losses get. Is that

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Speaker 1: where it just basically goes.

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Speaker 2: Well, they the banks do pay a sort of a

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Speaker 2: fairly generous dividend. A bank might have come off bank,

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Speaker 2: it's known for its generous dividend, and I'm you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm happy for the people who who may get that.

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Speaker 2: But I'll point out a couple of things about that dividend.

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Speaker 2: The banks have very large component of their shares are

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Speaker 2: held by foreign investors, so those dividends are leaving our country,

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Speaker 2: not staying in this country. And also a very large

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Speaker 2: percentage of their shares are held by superthns. So you

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Speaker 2: actually aren't the beneficiary of those dividends if you're a

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Speaker 2: working person, right, you're being told that they're accumulating for

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Speaker 2: you for when you retire. Well, that means you're super

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Speaker 2: is in the stock market, and stock markets can fluctuate.

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Speaker 2: While being your exposed to all sorts of potential crashes

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Speaker 2: over the years before you retire, you may never see

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Speaker 2: those dividends, right, So the actual benefit flying back to

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Speaker 2: Australians is not as great as people think. We used

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Speaker 2: to have banks, Matthew, where they didn't make as big

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Speaker 2: a profit because the actual value of banking stayed in

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Speaker 2: the pockets to their customers. That's where their pets, that's

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Speaker 2: where their profits come from, the pockets to their customers.

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Speaker 2: Their customers had more money in their pockets when they

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Speaker 2: dealt with banks than they do now. And that's a

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Speaker 2: better model I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right. So the other thing they should mandate,

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Speaker 1: and this is where it works against people wanting to

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Speaker 1: use cash that you go to some branches if you've

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Speaker 1: got a passbook or you know you want cash, you

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Speaker 1: go to a branch, and some branches, depending on the bank,

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Speaker 1: certainly the A and Z don't deal in cash, so

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Speaker 1: then you've got to go and find one that does.

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Speaker 1: And it's generally, you know, somewhere are busy, so there's

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Speaker 1: no hand deep parking, particularly if you're older, You've got

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Speaker 1: to park miles away and then you find yourself in

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Speaker 1: a ten deep long queue that takes sometimes half an hour,

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Speaker 1: depending on what the one teller is doing with the

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Speaker 1: people in front of you. So it's forcing you away

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Speaker 1: from the system. The other thing forcing even younger people

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Speaker 1: away is the lack of ATMs. And so if you

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Speaker 1: can't access cash through a machine that used to be

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Speaker 1: readily available somewhere, it no longer is. It just becomes

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Speaker 1: easier to scan with a card. So should we mandate, of.

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Speaker 2: Course, like in some form I think yes. Now we have,

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Speaker 2: as you know, we have a strong suggestion on the

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Speaker 2: table for a competitive solution that will actually force the

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Speaker 2: banks to start doing this without mandating it, which is

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Speaker 2: establishing a public post office bank, where the government says, okay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to have a government bank in all post offices.

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Speaker 2: Cash will be available, full banking services will be available.

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Speaker 2: There will be ATMs, et cetera will provide that basic service.

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Speaker 2: Because it's in post offices. Is four thousand Australia wide,

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Speaker 2: and that is more post office is that all bank

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Speaker 2: branches combined, by the way, and straight away it'll be

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Speaker 2: the biggest competitor the big four banks I've ever had,

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Speaker 2: and they will have to scramble to start to stop

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Speaker 2: customers jumping over to that government bank. And the only

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Speaker 2: way I'll do by lifting their standards of customer service, right,

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Speaker 2: And that's the sort of thing that the government should

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Speaker 2: be looking at. What we're seeing, what we're talking about

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Speaker 2: today is the government is starting to do piecemeal things

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Speaker 2: because they know they've finally come to the recognition that

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Speaker 2: this problem has to be addressed. But they should have

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Speaker 2: done this years ago before the banks got away with

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Speaker 2: closing so many branches and ripping out so many ATMs.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: But it took a political shift to force the government

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Speaker 2: and the opposition to actually accept there was their responsibility

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Speaker 2: to tell the banks what to do in these areas

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Speaker 2: of providing basic services. And a lot of that is

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Speaker 2: on the back of this very big inquiry last year

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Speaker 2: that finished this year into bank branch closures that we

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Speaker 2: were part of. That's where the shift came from, and

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Speaker 2: that highlighted the problem was undeniable. It showed the appalling

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Speaker 2: behavior of the banks and now the governments of realizing, okay,

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Speaker 2: something has to be.

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Speaker 1: Done, all right, Robert, really appreciate your time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Robert Barwick, Research Director Australian Citizens Party. This is a

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Speaker 1: little bit of Jim Chalmers earlier this morning on the

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Speaker 1: future of cash.

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Speaker 4: Our objective when it comes to payments is to modernize

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Speaker 4: our financial system but to do that in a way

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Speaker 4: that doesn't leave people behind, to make sure that there's

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Speaker 4: an ongoing role for cash, and to make sure that

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Speaker 4: as we phase out checks, we're doing that on a

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Speaker 4: reasonable and longer run up. And that's what today's announcements

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Speaker 4: are all about.

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Speaker 1: Let's have a chat with Patricia Sparrow, CEO Counsel of

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Speaker 1: the Aging here in Australia and Patricia, good morning. This

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Speaker 1: is probably a long awaited announcement, I imagine.

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Speaker 5: Good morning, Matthew. Yes it is. We've certainly been saying

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Speaker 5: that we want to make sure, as the Treasurer just

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Speaker 5: said then, that people who want to use cash, and

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Speaker 5: many of those are older Australians, use cash. It's legal

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Speaker 5: tender and people should be able to do it easily.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so selling goods and services, groceries, medicines, fuel will

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Speaker 1: be forced to accept cash. That's the proposal. Less they've

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Speaker 1: got a special exemption that says they don't have to.

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Speaker 1: It's common sense. It's not going anywhere. Ultimately, I suppose

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Speaker 1: it never really was something banks might want it to.

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Speaker 1: But there's always a place for it and to have

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Speaker 1: some bit and there are some you go into some

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Speaker 1: cafes and some food outlets particularly they only accept card

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Speaker 1: and that makes no sense to me because there are

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Speaker 1: times when the system is down for a start.

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Speaker 5: Well, absolutely, but also you know, if you're making a

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Speaker 5: really small purchase, you don't want to attract any additional

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Speaker 5: fee and charges on that. So we think it's important.

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Speaker 5: And at the moment, you're right. If you go in,

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Speaker 5: if they've got a sign up that says they don't

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Speaker 5: accept cash, then they don't have to accept cash. So

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Speaker 5: this is a really important move. And we know that

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Speaker 5: the government's going to undertake consultation and we get that.

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Speaker 5: We think that's important, but we have to make sure

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Speaker 5: that the exemptions don't go too far so that people

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Speaker 5: can continue to use cash in most in most businesses,

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Speaker 5: and that exemptions are real exemptions for a good reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Is there any reason though, to have an examine

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Speaker 1: any store not taking cash? They'd want a pretty damn

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Speaker 1: good reason. I can't think of any circumstance just off

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Speaker 1: the top of my head. I've been recking with brains

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Speaker 1: this morning. Where would you not want to use cash?

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Speaker 1: And I don't really know where.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And look, I'm not sure that I can give

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Speaker 5: you an example, but I think it's fair that it's

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Speaker 5: you know, for those businesses that have actually kind of

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Speaker 5: made decisions not to that their voice is heard. But

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Speaker 5: we also want through the consultation that the voice of

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Speaker 5: older people and people who want to pay with cash

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Speaker 5: is heard. And we know that it's you know, it's

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Speaker 5: something like one in two people over sixty five, but

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Speaker 5: also about thirty five percent of people between fifty and

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Speaker 5: sixty five, which is a large proportion overs of the

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Speaker 5: country that are saying that they use cash on a

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Speaker 5: regular basis. But it's really crucial that we put strong

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Speaker 5: measures in place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, peck that absolutely So, would you be having

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Speaker 1: a submission with Coder put.

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Speaker 5: Something in Yes, I think I think we probably would,

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Speaker 5: although I think we've probably made our submission today that

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Speaker 5: we supported it. We think it's really important and the

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Speaker 5: exemptions shouldn't go too far. Well, you know, we need

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Speaker 5: to see that it's fair to business. We also support

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Speaker 5: the way that they're approaching the phasing out of checks.

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Speaker 5: What we would say about the phasing out of checks

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Speaker 5: is we also have to do that in a way that,

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Speaker 5: as the Treasurer gone said quoting him, doesn't leave anybody behind.

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Speaker 5: And we think that there are people who would still

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Speaker 5: be using checks. They're possibly people who aren't as mobile

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Speaker 5: as others and who potentially aren't online. So things like

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Speaker 5: telephone banking remain solutions to people like that, and we

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Speaker 5: need to make sure those solutions are in place to

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Speaker 5: make sure that no one is left behind and people

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Speaker 5: aren't falling through the cracks. But taking a nationally consistent

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Speaker 5: and measured approach with a deadline to do that should

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Speaker 5: give us time to make sure that those kind of

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Speaker 5: measures are in place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, no, that makes sense. Checks I can almost understand,

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Speaker 1: because I reckon they have, especially as and you know,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about older people primarily, and I think as

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Speaker 1: people retire, the checkbook kind of goes as part of

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Speaker 1: that as you run out of them, I imagine. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I haven't had to use a checkbook for

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Speaker 1: anything for ten years probably now, if not more.

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Speaker 5: No, and I haven't. I haven't used a check either.

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Speaker 5: But I think I think what we're saying is that,

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Speaker 5: you know, we've got time to make sure that people

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Speaker 5: who aren't just automatically online. You know, many many older

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Speaker 5: people are online, but a lot of them prefer to

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Speaker 5: use cash, and those that perhaps aren't out and about

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Speaker 5: you know, we need those solutions like telephone banking to stay,

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Speaker 5: to stay for people so that as we're saying, you know,

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Speaker 5: people can continue to transact financially in a way that

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Speaker 5: suits them. And you know it is about customer service.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right, appreciate your time, Patricia, thank you,

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Speaker 1: Thanks Matthew. Patricia Sparrow, CEO Counsel of the Aging we're

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Speaker 1: talking about cash and the federal government to look at

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Speaker 1: having essential businesses like supermarkets, groceries, wherever you get those medicines,

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Speaker 1: fuel so pharmacies, banks obviously and petrol stations included, along

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Speaker 1: with some utilities and health services. It'll be a regulated thing,

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Speaker 1: not legislated, so the government can make changes easily if

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Speaker 1: it needs to. Moving forward, and I think it's a

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Speaker 1: good move. Now you shouldn't really have to, in my view,

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Speaker 1: regulate or mandate that cash is essential. It should always

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Speaker 1: be considered essential and if we need to regulate it will,

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Speaker 1: so be it. Because there's nothing more frustrating than dealing

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Speaker 1: with a bank that doesn't want to handle money. That's

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Speaker 1: the pub without beer scenario. It's just crazy. Stephen Jones,

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Speaker 1: Assistant treasurer on the line mister Jones, good morning, good

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Speaker 1: to be back with you. Yeah. Likewise, so this to

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Speaker 1: take place from the first of January twenty sixth, so

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Speaker 1: just over a year from now. Good move. I think

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Speaker 1: if that's what we've got to do, then let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. The right to use cash. We're going

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Speaker 3: to make legal tend to legal again. We know that.

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Speaker 3: You know the majority of Australians have moved to cashless

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Speaker 3: payments for the majority of retailed transactions, but there's still

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Speaker 3: on one and a half many in Australians who are

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Speaker 3: using cash for about eighty percent of their transactions, and

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Speaker 3: we want to protect that right, sending a clear signal

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Speaker 3: to business that the no cash accepted sign out the

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Speaker 3: front won't be acceptable for particularly for essential goods, so

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Speaker 3: your petrol, your groceries, your pharmacy, these sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: People have still got to be able to use cash

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Speaker 3: if that is their preference. We know the majority of

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Speaker 3: Australians won't. For those who do, will protect their right

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Speaker 3: to do so.

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Speaker 1: Was legal tender ever illegal tender?

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Speaker 3: No, it never was. Well, it's legal tender in a

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Speaker 3: very technical sense that a dollar means a dollar means

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Speaker 3: a dollar, a twenty dollars means twenty dollars, and fifty

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Speaker 3: cents means fifty cents recognized as a unit of value.

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Speaker 3: But what the law doesn't currently say is that everyone

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Speaker 3: must accept two fifty cent pieces for a dollar transaction.

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Speaker 3: So what we're doing is ensuring that you can't refuse

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Speaker 3: cash for those essential transactions.

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Speaker 1: I don't imagine there'd be any objections to this from anyone,

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Speaker 1: But why only those businesses, Why not all businesses having

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Speaker 1: to use cash. If cash is around, well they have

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Speaker 1: to accept it.

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Speaker 3: We want to protect the interests of small businesses and

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Speaker 3: some of the hybrid online offline businesses, some of whom

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Speaker 3: have gone to cash lists. And the problem you have

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Speaker 3: when you're regulating these sorts of things, you get all

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Speaker 3: these unintended consequences. So we want to make sure that

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Speaker 3: we don't start with fail by bringing in a whole

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Speaker 3: loup of people who frankly aren't a part of the problem.

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Speaker 3: But it's your grocery store, it's your pharmacy, it's your

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Speaker 3: petrol station, it's the places that we go to do

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Speaker 3: the majority of our retail business, and that's the stuff

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Speaker 3: that we're trying to bring in here, not to create

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Speaker 3: a burden where one doesn't need to be, but to

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Speaker 3: give people the right to use cash. That's what they

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Speaker 3: want to do.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely Now banks that don't deal in cash, and some

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Speaker 1: branches don't, is the mandate to include any branch having

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Speaker 1: to deal in cash.

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Speaker 3: That's what we're working through over the next couple of

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Speaker 3: months to ensure that we can find announce it se

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Speaker 3: with flush out as a result of this, and there'll

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Speaker 3: be things like that that we know that we'll flush

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Speaker 3: out over the coming months so we can work through

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Speaker 3: what we need to do in our.

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Speaker 1: Regulation, because you know, what it comes down to for

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Speaker 1: the ordinary person is and particularly the older person whose

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Speaker 1: local branch in a suburb might not now deal in cash,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking A and Z particularly because they do this,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about the others, and that means that

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Speaker 1: person might have to find public transport or drive or

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Speaker 1: whatever they have to do to a busier location, which

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Speaker 1: is generally the case, which does have the parking nearby,

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Speaker 1: might be on a main street in a suburban area,

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Speaker 1: and they've got to park further away and then make

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Speaker 1: their way slowly to the bank branch and then find

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Speaker 1: themselves because that is so busy. There's a queue of

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Speaker 1: a dozen people in front of them, and they've got

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Speaker 1: to sit down somewhere because they're older and frailer, and

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Speaker 1: wait to be served for up to half an hour,

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Speaker 1: which is the experience in the a in zet and

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Speaker 1: I've lived that with my mum to have to do this,

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Speaker 1: and it just frustrates the heck out of me that

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Speaker 1: what used to be for her on her own and

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Speaker 1: easy experience now needs me to drive and drop her

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Speaker 1: at the front and all the rest of it. So

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Speaker 1: that needs to change. They really need to take some

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Speaker 1: responsibility as a corporate citizen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear you allowed and clear that, and I agree.

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Speaker 3: We know what the direction of travel is. By the way,

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Speaker 3: we know that more and more Australians are doing more

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Speaker 3: and more stuff from their mobile phone online, but that's

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Speaker 3: not everyone, and we want to ensure these big economic

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Speaker 3: shifts occur, we don't leave people behind, still maintain the

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Speaker 3: capacity for them to do their business in the way

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Speaker 3: that they can and need and should be able to

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Speaker 3: do so. Separately, we're looking at what we can do

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Speaker 3: to ensure that everyone has access to bank branches and

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Speaker 3: face to face services. Have more to say about that

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Speaker 3: in the future and the new future, but this one

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Speaker 3: today I think will be well received by consumer.

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Speaker 1: I think so.

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Speaker 3: Which a big one that comes up all the time

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Speaker 3: whenever I did my regional travel, senior citizens consults or

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Speaker 3: anything all around the country. One that comes up time

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Speaker 3: and time ago.

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Speaker 1: This is on the back of the Regional Inquiry into

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Speaker 1: banks is not surely yes, so.

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Speaker 3: Good job of work was done by the Senate Committee

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Speaker 3: in the Inquiry into banking services. Quite separately from that,

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Speaker 3: I've been looking at what needs to be done across

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Speaker 3: a range of areas to get access to cash, to

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Speaker 3: have cash distribution secured throughout the economy. You know, three

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Speaker 3: years ago we used to have of all cash distribution companies,

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Speaker 3: we now have one. We've got to make sure that

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Speaker 3: that's viable and we've got to make sure that it

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Speaker 3: gets cash into supermarkets, into banks and other businesses around

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Speaker 3: the country as well. So challenging, not impossible, but we've

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Speaker 3: got to set the direction and set the rights in

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Speaker 3: place for everyday Australians.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Now, we talked before about the credit card fees

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Speaker 1: or debit card fees when you make transactions, so that's

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Speaker 1: on the cards as well as happening getting rid of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you can see we're trying to round up all

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Speaker 3: of these things, Matt. So the tap and go fees.

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Speaker 3: There used to be a time when your debit card

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Speaker 3: was treated differently to your credit card. A little while back.

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Speaker 3: Now the network providers charge but changed to a blended rate,

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Speaker 3: so debit card was treated the same as credit card

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Speaker 3: and you're paying to access your own money to the

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Speaker 3: debit card. We don't think that's right. Debit card for

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Speaker 3: many Australians is the new cash, and we don't think

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Speaker 3: they should be charged for accessing it. Working through that

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Speaker 3: over the next couple of months with much more in

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Speaker 3: place the next year.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this is doable or not, but

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons people have left cash, I believe

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Speaker 1: is the lack of accessibility to it. So ATMs now

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Speaker 1: these days, okay, you're at the checkout, you can ask

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Speaker 1: the tele for cash and you get some. But the

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Speaker 1: ease of going to an ATM, which were everywhere, and

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Speaker 1: I understand the cost of maintaining them, etc. But surely

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Speaker 1: we need more of them, And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's mandateable but if you've got more ATMs and you've

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Speaker 1: got more cash, which comes to the heart of what

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Speaker 1: the issue has been. People have not used cash, I

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Speaker 1: think because ATMs are harder and harder to fight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed, And banks largely divested themselves of a lot

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Speaker 3: of these services a few years ago. Looking at all

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Speaker 3: of those things, I bundle it all up into access

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Speaker 3: to traditional banking services and it should be the case

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Speaker 3: that wherever you are throughout Australia, you're able to get

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Speaker 3: access to basic banking services, whether it's online, through an ATM,

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Speaker 3: through a bank branch, through access to cash services. All

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Speaker 3: of these things need to be available to Australians right

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Speaker 3: throughout the country.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, we'll see where it ends up. Stephen Jones,

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Speaker 1: thank you for your time.

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Speaker 3: Always good to talk to.

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Speaker 1: Assistant Treasurer