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Speaker 1: Appod Jay production.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of violent crime, including murder and

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime

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Speaker 2: with Adam Shand. I'm your host, Adam Shand. If you

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Speaker 2: like our content, please consider subscribing, liking, and sharing the podcast.

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Speaker 2: The brutal murder of Melbourne bookstore owner Maria James in

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Speaker 2: June nineteen eighty is one of Australia's best known cold cases.

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Speaker 3: Police are investigating the stabbing murder of a Thornberry woman

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Speaker 3: found dead inside her bookstore this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: The thirty eight year old mother of two was viciously

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Speaker 2: attacked by a knife wielding killer who has never been

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Speaker 2: brought to justice.

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Speaker 3: Pop Side detectives say the attack was sustained and brutal.

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Speaker 3: No arrests have been made.

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Speaker 2: An award winning podcast led investigators to consider the local

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Speaker 2: parish priest, father Anthony Bonjoorno, as a possible suspect.

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Speaker 3: The investigation has focused on a Catholic priest who ministered

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Speaker 3: in the area at the time of the killing.

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Speaker 1: The motives seemed to fit.

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Speaker 2: Bonjorno was alleged to have sexually assaulted one of James's

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Speaker 2: sons and Maria was planning to confront him on the

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Speaker 2: day of her murder. These fresh leads led the coroner

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Speaker 2: to hold another inquest, and Bonjorno was expected to be

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Speaker 2: endorsed as the culprit.

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Speaker 1: It didn't work out like.

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Speaker 2: That because another suspect emerged with a clear history of

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Speaker 2: misogyny and violence against women.

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Speaker 3: A Melbourne man has been found guilty of the knife

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Speaker 3: murder of his former girlfriend outside a Northcote kindergarten in.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty seven. Peter Keo murdered his ex girlfriend, Vicky

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Speaker 2: Cleary with a knife.

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Speaker 3: The victim, Vicky Cleary, was attacked in front of witnesses.

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Speaker 2: Vicky's brother Phil Cleary. He's always been sure that Peter

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Speaker 2: Keo also killed Maria James, and he explained why in

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Speaker 2: a recent interview with Real Crime. Feel clear. It's good

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Speaker 2: to talk to you again. Last week spoke. We're talking

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Speaker 2: about the murder of your sister, VICKI yes, by Peter Keo.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think it was appropriate to deal with the

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Speaker 2: whole Maria James killing within that because of a very

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Speaker 2: specific topic we talked about around separation. But it's become

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Speaker 2: increasingly clear that Peter Keo, who killed your sister is

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Speaker 2: really the leading suspect.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say leading suspect in.

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Speaker 2: The killing of Maria James in nineteen eighty what's your view.

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Speaker 4: I knew nothing about Keo's history when he was with

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Speaker 4: my sister from about eighty three to eighty seven. I

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Speaker 4: only met him about three times, which is clearly the

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Speaker 4: case that he didn't want to be in my company

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Speaker 4: because I might have discovered things about him. After the

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Speaker 4: verdict in nineteen eighty nine, a woman rang my mother.

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Speaker 4: A woman from East Coburg rang my mother and said,

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Speaker 4: do you know Keo was interviewed over the Thornburry bookshop

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Speaker 4: murder of nineteen eighty Mum told me I was stunned.

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Speaker 1: We'd never heard that story. I rang the police.

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Speaker 4: They said, oh, yes, he kind of was, but he

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Speaker 4: had an alibi. I didn't think much of it. After that,

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Speaker 4: I went into Parliament. I kept researching the violence question,

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Speaker 4: but eventually, in the late nineties I went in and

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Speaker 4: looked at the Maria James file under the guidance of Ronidles.

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Speaker 4: Detective Ronidoles, who was in the homicide squad, invited me

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Speaker 4: in and said you can read the file well. Adam

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Speaker 4: When I read the file, I was in a state

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Speaker 4: almost of disbelief. I discovered that Keo had been interviewed

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Speaker 4: by Ronidoles, who was a young detective at the time.

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Speaker 1: This was his first case.

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Speaker 4: Yees and Brian McCarthy, a more senior detective, correct why

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Speaker 4: did they interview him Because Keo's parole officer, Margaret Hobbes,

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Speaker 4: had told them that he was the killer through another person,

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Speaker 4: A professional colleague of hers had run the police to

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Speaker 4: say Margaret believes he killed Maria.

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Speaker 1: James, that he knew her.

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Speaker 4: And then I discovered that Keo had been given an

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Speaker 4: alibi by a woman by the name of Judy McNulty.

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Speaker 4: Judy MacNulty had run my mother after Keo's trial and

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Speaker 4: said words of the effect.

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Speaker 1: That she believed he'd killed Maria James.

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Speaker 4: Eventually, eventually she got to the point of saying, she

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Speaker 4: didn't tell Mum she'd given him an alibi, but she

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Speaker 4: was implicating in him in the murder. So it's cut

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Speaker 4: along the story short and you'll come back with another question.

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Speaker 4: Then I discovered that Judy McNaughty had not only given

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Speaker 4: him an alibi, she rescinded the alibi by way of

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Speaker 4: her two sisters. In nineteen eighty two, a year and

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Speaker 4: a bit after the murder, her sisters rang homicide and

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Speaker 4: told them that Keo was the murderer. One of her

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Speaker 4: sisters rang homicide with Judy sitting alongside her. So Judy's

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Speaker 4: given her imprimata to her sister, saying Kio killed Maria Jones.

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Speaker 1: Well, what was the alibi versus clear that out of

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Speaker 1: the word.

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Speaker 4: They didn't take a proper police statement from Judy McNulty.

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Speaker 4: It was just a verbal It went something like, oh,

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Speaker 4: he was probably with me, probably with me. They were

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Speaker 4: working nightshift at a local factory, nightshift, which meant he

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Speaker 4: was free during the day and Maria James was murdered

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Speaker 4: in the middle.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're looking at seventeenth of June nineteen eighty Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's about eleven thirty in the mornings.

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Speaker 1: She's at her Thornberry bookstore.

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Speaker 2: She rings her a strange husband, John at the Fitzroy

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Speaker 2: Town Hall and says, listen, I've got some bother with somebody,

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Speaker 2: can please come. He goes down there, sees the doors

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Speaker 2: are all locked, manages to get in through a window

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Speaker 2: at the back there. When he gets in, he realizes

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Speaker 2: the front door is now open, so the killer has disappeared,

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Speaker 2: and he finds Maria there in a pool of blood.

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Speaker 2: Sixty eight stab wounds. Very very nasty, brutal. Personal. I

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Speaker 2: mean some murders have an air of professionalism about.

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Speaker 1: Them or something detack.

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Speaker 2: This is a highly personal I'm going to teach you

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Speaker 2: a final lesson kind of murder.

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Speaker 4: And I read into that. What we know is you've

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Speaker 4: talked about the door being open. Whoever was in the

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Speaker 4: bookshop ran across the street, across High Street and was

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Speaker 4: nearly run over by a woman driving north. That woman

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Speaker 4: years later, in about two thousand and one, after Kio died,

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Speaker 4: was shown a photo board and who did she pick

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Speaker 4: out on that photo board as the man she had

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Speaker 4: seen running across the road who she nearly ran over,

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Speaker 4: Peter Raymond Keo.

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Speaker 1: Them's the facts, and.

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Speaker 2: There were two witnesses because both claim to have seen

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Speaker 2: a man with a receding hairline looked a lot like

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Speaker 2: Keo and was picked out as he walked.

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Speaker 4: Down the local street towards the railway line, and it

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Speaker 4: seemed to be holding something in his pocket. This replicated

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Speaker 4: what Keo did when he murdered Vicki in nineteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 4: he was seen holding the knife in his pocket.

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Speaker 1: So I say this similarities here.

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Speaker 4: Now, Keo did he have a motive for Maria James,

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Speaker 4: I'd say he knew she was there. He might have

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Speaker 4: had a connection with her. He might have gone out

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Speaker 4: with her or seen her sexually. I don't want to

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Speaker 4: go through all of those possibilities. But even if he didn't,

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Speaker 4: he would have walked in off the street looking for

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Speaker 4: a rape. And when Maria fought back, he went the

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Speaker 4: whole way with his knife.

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Speaker 1: And he killed her.

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Speaker 4: Or else he killed her because she said no to

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Speaker 4: any relationship further with him. There's those two possibilities. But

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Speaker 4: when people say motive, Keyo didn't need a motive. Conquest

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Speaker 4: was his motive, and any woman who he went after

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Speaker 4: who said no was in danger.

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Speaker 1: And the problem with all.

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Speaker 2: The suspects that we've seen, including the other prime suspect,

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Speaker 2: father Anthony Bonjorno, motive is the problem. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to amount to anything. But if you've got a misogynistic,

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Speaker 2: brutal killer like Keo, the motive is his dysfunction, his

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Speaker 2: need to dominate and conquer women. But some other aspects

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Speaker 2: are important to deal with in the background. Here police

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Speaker 2: come there, they find two cups of tea. Because the

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Speaker 2: residence actually adjoins the bookstore, so she can go from

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Speaker 2: the bookstore into the residence.

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Speaker 1: There are two cups of tea.

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Speaker 2: It appears that a potato masher was used at one

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Speaker 2: stage to hold her down.

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Speaker 1: That's been dispute, has it okay?

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Speaker 2: And the murder weapon is likely to have been a

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Speaker 2: knife that was already on the premises.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that that's necessarily true, may or may

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Speaker 4: not have been. Roniddles later said they did not find

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Speaker 4: a potato masher.

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Speaker 1: They speculated on that.

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Speaker 4: Another detective, former detective who gave evidence at the inquest,

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Speaker 4: said it looked like the scraping of a coat across

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Speaker 4: Maria James's face that had caused the bruising or the

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Speaker 4: rash on her face.

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Speaker 1: And when you look back.

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Speaker 4: To nineteen eighty seven when Peter Keo murdered our sister Vicki,

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Speaker 4: he was seen with his arm around her head, her

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Speaker 4: face and scraping her face with his arm as he

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Speaker 4: tried to subdue her. So you know, I see in

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Speaker 4: those two moments, I see Peter Keo at work.

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Speaker 2: The bottom line is the coroner in the fresh inquest,

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Speaker 2: which is now a couple of years old, came to

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Speaker 2: an open finding, and we're left with Father bon Juno

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Speaker 2: and Peter Keyo.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder, how.

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Speaker 2: Do you react to this because for years Roniddles and

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Speaker 2: the ABC Rachel Brown have pushed very hard towards Father

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Speaker 2: bon Jorno, and the motive being that Bonjorno had allegedly

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Speaker 2: tampered with Maria's son Adam and others. And there was

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Speaker 2: another priest, O'Keefe who seems to have done the same thing.

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Speaker 1: But to me, it doesn't make much.

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Speaker 2: Sense because the story is Maria had confronted Bonjorno and

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Speaker 2: was going to do something about it.

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Speaker 1: But killing her.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't stop the fact that Adam knows he was molested,

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Speaker 2: So killing her, I mean, murder doesn't always have to

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Speaker 2: make sense.

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Speaker 1: But that was always a problem for me.

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Speaker 2: And yet bon Jorno was left as the main suspect

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Speaker 2: for many, many years. And as you say, you knew

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Speaker 2: for years Keo was in the frame. Why do they

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Speaker 2: overlook Keo all those years?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it just became very trendy to condemn

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Speaker 4: the Catholic Church. It was a time when the church

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Speaker 4: was under assault for the molesting of boys everywhere in schools,

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Speaker 4: I mean my school. Saint Jose pasco Vo was another example,

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Speaker 4: Brother Weston, they're in the sea everywhere. Look, there are

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Speaker 4: all these stories being on earth. So it was very

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Speaker 4: trendy and fashionable to say, of course it's a pedophile priest.

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Speaker 4: But you know, the pedophile priest run around killing women.

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Speaker 4: And as you say, if he wanted to kill Maria James,

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Speaker 4: why not just murder her? Why stab her multiple times

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Speaker 4: in the way that the fanatical Keios killed, the way

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Speaker 4: that he had done or attacked women. And at the

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Speaker 4: inquest it was pointed out he'd attacked the woman in

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Speaker 4: Coburg a few years earlier, Sharise. She gave evidence saying

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Speaker 4: he had a knife, he had rope to tie her up.

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Speaker 4: You know, people saw that and got this bloke. He

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Speaker 4: is clearly the kind of person that could kill Maria Jones.

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Speaker 4: He raped a nine year old girl in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 4: four in his own street in Richmond, nine years of age.

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Speaker 4: This was Keo at work. You know, he was so

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Speaker 4: misogynistic and so much into conquest of women.

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Speaker 1: He could be that person.

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Speaker 4: But come to bon Joorno, it just became fashionable to

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Speaker 4: blame bon Jorno when Kio was such a likely suspect,

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Speaker 4: and go a step further, Judy Noughty gave him an alibi.

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Speaker 4: Judy McNulty's sister told the Inquest which you've read, Adam,

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Speaker 4: that they went to Keo's flat to get a change

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Speaker 4: of clothes for him.

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Speaker 1: Why would you do that?

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Speaker 4: And Judy McNulty's sister believes it was on the day

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Speaker 4: of the murder that they drove to the flat, picked

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Speaker 4: up a set of clothes, drove back to judiem Noldy's house,

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Speaker 4: and her sister drove home. And where was Keo? Was

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Speaker 4: he in the backyard of her house? We're covered in blood?

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Speaker 4: Where was he? This is a fact that they went

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Speaker 4: to the flat to get a change of clothing.

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Speaker 1: That is a fact. That is a fact. Was it

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Speaker 1: on the day of the murder?

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Speaker 4: Judy's sister says, Dot says she believes it was. And

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Speaker 4: you know the last bit of the story. Peter Keyo

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Speaker 4: said to Vicki a few weeks before he murdered her,

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Speaker 4: I do to you what I did to the woman

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Speaker 4: in the bookshop.

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Speaker 1: How do I know that?

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Speaker 4: Because Vicky told her then boyfriend Chris Wheeler, who eventually

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Speaker 4: told the police.

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Speaker 1: He didn't say it.

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Speaker 4: At the time, and I say, he was so traumatized,

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Speaker 4: He's not thinking about Maria James and what Ko's harassment

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Speaker 4: to Vicky. He didn't even have They talked about that

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00:13:24,961 --> 00:13:28,001
Speaker 4: in his police statement, but years later he put it

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Speaker 4: in a statement. Keyo said to Vicky, I'll do to

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Speaker 4: you what I did to the woman in the bookshop.

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Speaker 2: I've got to ask you, though, Phil, that murder was

250
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Speaker 2: well known at the time. We're not a million miles

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Speaker 2: from that area in Thornbury. Why wasn't anything said back

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Speaker 2: then if he said this chilling thing to her?

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Speaker 4: Well, the fellow Chris Wheeler, he didn't know anything about

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Speaker 4: the murder. He wasn't from the area. It was not

255
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Speaker 4: a thing he had a semblance of understanding of nothing.

256
00:13:56,761 --> 00:13:59,561
Speaker 4: It was just some story out there. He wasn't in

257
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Speaker 4: a position where it was going to have traction in

258
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Speaker 4: his consciousness or the Maria James that famous. He didn't

259
00:14:05,921 --> 00:14:08,641
Speaker 4: know anything about it. So I think that explains it.

260
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Speaker 4: But it's interesting, Adam. I went searching after I read

261
00:14:12,521 --> 00:14:14,521
Speaker 4: the police file of Maria James. I went up to

262
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Speaker 4: the Northern suburbs. I went and walked past the bookshop.

263
00:14:17,401 --> 00:14:19,961
Speaker 4: I went up to the Junction Hotel where Keo used

264
00:14:19,961 --> 00:14:23,361
Speaker 4: to drink. I walked around, I looked at places. I

265
00:14:23,481 --> 00:14:25,921
Speaker 4: made contact with a bloke who used to drink at

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Speaker 4: the Junction Hotel, a couple of hundred meters north of

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Speaker 4: the Thornbury book Shop.

268
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Speaker 1: I met him. I met him up in North.

269
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Speaker 4: Coburg and he said to me at the pub, the

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Speaker 4: gossip was Maria James was Keo's missus. That's the term

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Speaker 4: he used. And we know that's working class idiom for girlfriend. Yeah, sure,

272
00:14:46,681 --> 00:14:49,201
Speaker 4: his missus, as in he was going out with her.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if it's true, but I'm telling you

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Speaker 4: what is true, that that fellow that I met around

275
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Speaker 4: the two thousand mark told me that that was the

276
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Speaker 4: gossip in the Junction Hotel, about two hundred meters.

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Speaker 1: North of the Thornbury book Shop.

278
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Speaker 4: Then I spoke to Peter Keo's son Damien on the phone.

279
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Speaker 1: He was very polite with me.

280
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Speaker 4: I said, I'm sorry to be wringing you about your

281
00:15:14,921 --> 00:15:20,201
Speaker 4: father after his father had committed suicide. I spoke to him, Damien,

282
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Speaker 4: and I said, do you know anything about this? No?

283
00:15:23,201 --> 00:15:25,081
Speaker 1: I don't, but he said, I can tell you.

284
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Speaker 4: My dad said he was going out with a girl

285
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Speaker 4: from a shop somewhere near there.

286
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Speaker 1: And Damien was a small kid at this time.

287
00:15:33,721 --> 00:15:36,401
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, he would have been about seven at the

288
00:15:36,441 --> 00:15:38,361
Speaker 4: time of the murder round about.

289
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Speaker 1: So Damien is telling.

290
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Speaker 4: Me that his father told him he went out with

291
00:15:43,001 --> 00:15:46,401
Speaker 4: a girl from a shop he thought I think, he said,

292
00:15:46,521 --> 00:15:48,241
Speaker 4: I think it was a pizza shop, and I thought

293
00:15:48,801 --> 00:15:53,281
Speaker 4: a shop a shop. And he's recalling this years after

294
00:15:53,321 --> 00:15:56,041
Speaker 4: the event, twenty years later. This is around two thousand

295
00:15:56,121 --> 00:15:58,401
Speaker 4: years recalling what his father had said to him in

296
00:15:58,481 --> 00:16:00,801
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty that he went out with a girl from

297
00:16:00,841 --> 00:16:03,241
Speaker 4: a shop near the Junction hotel.

298
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Speaker 2: And you can start to put circumstancil pieces together based

299
00:16:06,601 --> 00:16:10,361
Speaker 2: on that. You've also got the telecom worker who was

300
00:16:10,401 --> 00:16:12,481
Speaker 2: supposed to be in relationship with Marie. I think he

301
00:16:12,521 --> 00:16:15,561
Speaker 2: actually denied that, but he had been there and lo

302
00:16:15,721 --> 00:16:19,041
Speaker 2: and behold, three days after he's interviewed, he kills himself,

303
00:16:19,601 --> 00:16:21,161
Speaker 2: so that avenue closes.

304
00:16:21,201 --> 00:16:23,321
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you can imagine.

305
00:16:23,041 --> 00:16:25,681
Speaker 2: A situation where Keyo, if he thinks he's got ownership

306
00:16:25,681 --> 00:16:29,361
Speaker 2: over Maria, discovers some other bloke there or some other indication,

307
00:16:29,721 --> 00:16:32,481
Speaker 2: and suddenly his rage rises up, and you've got a

308
00:16:32,521 --> 00:16:33,361
Speaker 2: deadly situation.

309
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Speaker 4: Absolutely true. And this is Peter Keo at work. These

310
00:16:38,681 --> 00:16:42,161
Speaker 4: kind of men who have this ownership view of women

311
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Speaker 4: and conquest of women imbedded misogyny at work.

312
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Speaker 1: That's Peter Keyo work.

313
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Speaker 4: And a woman rang John Sylvester from the Age, from

314
00:16:51,641 --> 00:16:54,761
Speaker 4: the age and told him that she had been in

315
00:16:54,801 --> 00:16:57,841
Speaker 4: the bookshop on the morning of the murder, and she

316
00:16:58,081 --> 00:17:03,921
Speaker 4: saw a man who resembled Keo looking through books in

317
00:17:04,041 --> 00:17:07,880
Speaker 4: the bookshop. Is it a true story, Adam, I don't know,

318
00:17:08,041 --> 00:17:10,121
Speaker 4: but I don't know what is true that John Sylvester

319
00:17:10,281 --> 00:17:12,681
Speaker 4: told me that a woman rang him and told him

320
00:17:12,721 --> 00:17:15,201
Speaker 4: that she had seen a bloke looking through books who

321
00:17:15,201 --> 00:17:16,681
Speaker 4: looked like Keo.

322
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Speaker 1: On the morning of the Maria James murder.

323
00:17:20,001 --> 00:17:23,760
Speaker 2: Yes, let's roll back a step or two. Who was

324
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Speaker 2: Peter Keyo.

325
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,681
Speaker 1: Keo grew up in Westgarth.

326
00:17:28,201 --> 00:17:30,961
Speaker 4: His father was Melbourn, Melbourne, up in northgot For those

327
00:17:31,001 --> 00:17:33,521
Speaker 4: who am not sure, say northern suburbs of Melbourne. You know,

328
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,161
Speaker 4: you go north of Collingwood and you come to north Westgarth.

329
00:17:38,441 --> 00:17:41,561
Speaker 4: His father was a factory worker down in Port Melbourne

330
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Speaker 4: with Dunlops. His father had a first marriage. His father

331
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Speaker 4: was violent to his first wife and cruel to her.

332
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Speaker 4: Then he married a younger woman and Keyo's a product

333
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Speaker 4: of that second family. Born in nineteen forty eight. He

334
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 4: had an older brother born in forty one. Around about

335
00:17:59,721 --> 00:18:03,521
Speaker 4: forty forty one, his older brother was found guilty of rape.

336
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Speaker 1: And was charged at the house in Westgarth.

337
00:18:06,561 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 4: In about nineteen fifty nine, his older brother, found guilty

338
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,440
Speaker 4: of rape, went to jail. Keo was found guilty of

339
00:18:13,561 --> 00:18:16,441
Speaker 4: molesting a girl in the family court. He was found

340
00:18:16,441 --> 00:18:19,921
Speaker 4: guilty of molesting girl, probably at his school. He had

341
00:18:19,921 --> 00:18:24,400
Speaker 4: a history of abuse of women and threats towards women.

342
00:18:24,721 --> 00:18:28,001
Speaker 4: In nineteen sixty three he was involved he got shot

343
00:18:28,041 --> 00:18:31,400
Speaker 4: by a detective at the Preston railway station. He was

344
00:18:31,441 --> 00:18:34,080
Speaker 4: wielding a knife, he was drunk. He went at the

345
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 4: police when he got shot in the knee. This is

346
00:18:36,281 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 4: September nineteen sixty three. And he had a history of

347
00:18:41,041 --> 00:18:44,441
Speaker 4: he was knocking around. He was violent, but women were

348
00:18:44,521 --> 00:18:49,241
Speaker 4: always in danger with him and the woman in Coburg

349
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 4: in around nineteen seventy and then the young girl in

350
00:18:52,041 --> 00:18:55,401
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy four and on, it goes he was a

351
00:18:55,481 --> 00:19:02,321
Speaker 4: violent man, covered in tattoos, an ordinary, awful human being,

352
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,041
Speaker 4: really who I met only the three or four times,

353
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 4: And I said this, what was the most memorable moment

354
00:19:07,961 --> 00:19:10,441
Speaker 4: I had with him? In nineteen eighty six, I think

355
00:19:10,481 --> 00:19:13,120
Speaker 4: Vicky brought him to the Coburg football ground to a game,

356
00:19:13,441 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 4: and he sat at a table littered with empty glasses,

357
00:19:17,001 --> 00:19:19,321
Speaker 4: and he was kind of almost drooling, and I thought, oh,

358
00:19:19,321 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 4: I like this bloke. And I spoke to him for

359
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,001
Speaker 4: a few minutes, and it was enough for me to

360
00:19:23,041 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 4: tell Mum we had to get him out of Vicky's life.

361
00:19:25,281 --> 00:19:26,241
Speaker 1: Well, lo and Behold.

362
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:28,801
Speaker 4: Vicky ended the relationship, so I didn't have to go

363
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 4: there with my sister. All I can say is what

364
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,561
Speaker 4: I thought that day and at the Coburg football ground

365
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 4: turned out to be right, that he was no good,

366
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:38,681
Speaker 4: but Vicky had left him.

367
00:19:38,681 --> 00:19:39,801
Speaker 1: I thought we were all good.

368
00:19:40,481 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 4: I met her on my two hundredth game at Coburg

369
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty seven. Everything seemed fine. She'd separated and

370
00:19:46,521 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 4: lo and Behold. Eleven weeks later she was dead. So

371
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 4: we lived to regret the fact that we didn't know

372
00:19:52,321 --> 00:19:56,041
Speaker 4: about his history. If I'd known that he'd been interviewed

373
00:19:56,041 --> 00:19:59,160
Speaker 4: over the Maria James bookshop in nineteen eighty. Do you

374
00:19:59,241 --> 00:20:01,561
Speaker 4: think he would have been knocking around with our sister.

375
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,360
Speaker 1: I mean, seriously, do you think.

376
00:20:04,241 --> 00:20:06,561
Speaker 2: Seeing you some of his background or was he very

377
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:07,281
Speaker 2: good concealing.

378
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,001
Speaker 4: I think he's a good liar. He kept saying to

379
00:20:10,041 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 4: her the police were always after him. He would have

380
00:20:12,521 --> 00:20:16,681
Speaker 4: been telling her that he was victimized, and VICKI was sympathetic.

381
00:20:16,761 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 4: She'd grown up in an old working class setting with

382
00:20:19,241 --> 00:20:21,921
Speaker 4: a strong sense of justice, and she would have looked

383
00:20:21,961 --> 00:20:24,481
Speaker 4: at him as they yeah, he's been a bit victimized

384
00:20:24,521 --> 00:20:28,120
Speaker 4: here and there, and her sympathies would have been played

385
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,961
Speaker 4: out and he would have exploited them.

386
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:32,681
Speaker 2: And he had a certain charisma bo because people without

387
00:20:32,761 --> 00:20:34,640
Speaker 2: charisma can't get to these sort of places.

388
00:20:34,721 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 4: But I don't know what it was, but yeah, I

389
00:20:37,001 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 4: just think he was a bluff merchant and a wannabe warlord,

390
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,281
Speaker 4: a big notor. And look the irony there is when

391
00:20:46,281 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 4: he said to VICKI illl do to you what I

392
00:20:47,721 --> 00:20:48,961
Speaker 4: did to the woman in the bookshop.

393
00:20:49,001 --> 00:20:50,161
Speaker 1: That could just be bluff.

394
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,400
Speaker 4: You'd be right to say that doesn't mean that he

395
00:20:52,481 --> 00:20:54,801
Speaker 4: definitely killed Marie James. It does not It could have

396
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,801
Speaker 4: just been bluff, but it just throws another fact in

397
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,120
Speaker 4: there for consideration. But as for Keo, the person, he

398
00:21:01,281 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 4: was pretty ordinary, semi literate, you know, Jesus, he was violent.

399
00:21:06,721 --> 00:21:10,361
Speaker 2: Semi literate, not a guy who would normally frequent bookshops.

400
00:21:10,961 --> 00:21:14,321
Speaker 4: No, and the person said in the bookshop, a haha,

401
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 4: what was he looking at? Probably books on cars or something,

402
00:21:17,681 --> 00:21:20,801
Speaker 4: you know, pictures of cars, and he's not there to

403
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,281
Speaker 4: read Jane Austen, is he No, exactly, And it's.

404
00:21:25,201 --> 00:21:29,041
Speaker 2: Quite possible that he became fixated on Maria James.

405
00:21:29,961 --> 00:21:33,001
Speaker 4: Well, what I know about Keyo, he'd come to know

406
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 4: that Maria James was alone in that bookshop. He sees

407
00:21:36,041 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 4: her as a conquest. No one can just bet that

408
00:21:39,441 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 4: based on Kea's history, doesn't mean he killed her, doesn't

409
00:21:42,201 --> 00:21:44,281
Speaker 4: mean he is the killer. But all I know is

410
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 4: all the circumstantial facts do support the proposition that Peter Keo.

411
00:21:48,761 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: Killed Marie Jo.

412
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,761
Speaker 4: He lived in the area, he knew the area like

413
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,121
Speaker 4: the back of his hand.

414
00:21:53,281 --> 00:21:55,401
Speaker 1: It was his patch, Adam. Yeah.

415
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 2: And what I don't understand though, is the tunnel vision

416
00:21:59,041 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: that took over this investigation. You're saying that before two thousand,

417
00:22:04,241 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 2: Keo was in the you saw his name in the file,

418
00:22:07,721 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: and yet we roll around twenty fourteen, twenty thirteen and

419
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:15,721
Speaker 2: there's only one suspect left as the bon I think

420
00:22:15,761 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 2: even today ron Itidles would tell you that he doesn't

421
00:22:18,921 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: think Keo did it, and that he thinks it's Bono

422
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,041
Speaker 2: who did it, based on the fact that Maria had

423
00:22:25,041 --> 00:22:28,721
Speaker 2: confronted Bono about his molesting of Adam her son.

424
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,561
Speaker 4: Roniddles is so wrong in his assessment as to why

425
00:22:33,681 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 4: it can't be Keo. It's mad. Of course it can

426
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,321
Speaker 4: be Keyo. Of course there's a high probability it's Keyo.

427
00:22:40,721 --> 00:22:43,681
Speaker 4: That's what the coroner said, Adam. People could say, don't

428
00:22:43,681 --> 00:22:47,201
Speaker 4: worry what Phil Cleary says, asked the coroner she named

429
00:22:47,321 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 4: Keyo as one of two major suspects. She had the

430
00:22:50,441 --> 00:22:53,041
Speaker 4: name Bonjiorno. They would have mocked her if she hadn't.

431
00:22:53,201 --> 00:22:55,601
Speaker 4: But I say, people close to the case believe it's

432
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,241
Speaker 4: Peter Keyo.

433
00:22:56,681 --> 00:22:58,321
Speaker 1: And also the DNA.

434
00:22:58,961 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 4: If you read the inquest, you will see that the

435
00:23:00,921 --> 00:23:07,321
Speaker 4: coroner acknowledges that the DNA is not inconsistent with kio small.

436
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 1: Connection to Kia.

437
00:23:08,481 --> 00:23:10,801
Speaker 4: If it was at odds with Ko, then she would

438
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 4: have said so, but she acknowledges that it is a

439
00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 4: potential connection to Kia.

440
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:16,561
Speaker 1: On it, it's not so good.

441
00:23:16,681 --> 00:23:19,161
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the DNA because it's a really important

442
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: part of this story, and it actually means that the

443
00:23:20,961 --> 00:23:23,321
Speaker 2: case is really at square one now because of the

444
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,961
Speaker 2: DNA bungles. They lose the pillow cases which had Maria's

445
00:23:28,961 --> 00:23:32,441
Speaker 2: blood on it and potentially DNA from the offender. They

446
00:23:32,481 --> 00:23:36,521
Speaker 2: then find another pillow case from another case and they

447
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,561
Speaker 2: transpose that and put it into evidence, and they.

448
00:23:39,481 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: Use that to eliminate.

449
00:23:42,281 --> 00:23:47,321
Speaker 2: The Keo and then so explain the other DNA just

450
00:23:47,321 --> 00:23:47,921
Speaker 2: for clarity.

451
00:23:48,801 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 4: Well, well, they've just discovered that the real DNA does

452
00:23:52,761 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 4: have a link to Keo. But the problem is the

453
00:23:56,041 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 4: paucity of the DNA. The quality of the DNA is

454
00:23:59,201 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 4: not so great.

455
00:24:00,441 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: And where was that found. That's in the bookshop on

456
00:24:03,281 --> 00:24:04,921
Speaker 1: a quilt. I believe, yes, that's right.

457
00:24:05,201 --> 00:24:09,081
Speaker 4: So all I could say is the coroner says that

458
00:24:09,281 --> 00:24:14,281
Speaker 4: the DNA doesn't exclude Ko and it is there's partial

459
00:24:14,321 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 4: connection to Kiyo's partially.

460
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: There was an important writer on that.

461
00:24:17,921 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: Then the coroner said that it could also match to

462
00:24:20,521 --> 00:24:21,801
Speaker 2: fifty percent of the population.

463
00:24:22,521 --> 00:24:25,001
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, but what we do know is it doesn't

464
00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 4: exclude Kio. It doesn't and we know it's not substantial DNA,

465
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,001
Speaker 4: so it's going to be harder to work with. I

466
00:24:31,041 --> 00:24:33,841
Speaker 4: would think, I think that's what they were saying. But

467
00:24:33,961 --> 00:24:36,801
Speaker 4: all I'd say is it doesn't exclude Peter Keyo. All

468
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 4: the circumstantial evidence, in my opinion, leads to Peter Keo

469
00:24:42,681 --> 00:24:45,441
Speaker 4: more so to Kio than it does to bond Joorno

470
00:24:45,801 --> 00:24:49,561
Speaker 4: and bomb Juno is photographed outside the bookshop. I mean,

471
00:24:49,801 --> 00:24:51,481
Speaker 4: why would you if you were the man who ran

472
00:24:51,521 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 4: across the road nearly run over in high Street, So

473
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 4: you're in plane sight and you know that the person

474
00:24:58,721 --> 00:25:01,321
Speaker 4: who nearly rang you over is going to be a

475
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 4: witness and is going to look at your face and

476
00:25:03,441 --> 00:25:05,921
Speaker 4: see it on a photo board or to a photo board,

477
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 4: and I pick you out. Why would you go to

478
00:25:08,681 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 4: the bookshop in the early afternoon and stand there.

479
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,321
Speaker 1: Sure he wanted to go inside.

480
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,001
Speaker 4: The police say, oh, well, that's because he wanted to

481
00:25:16,041 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 4: put his DNA in there, which would then camouflage the

482
00:25:19,521 --> 00:25:20,361
Speaker 4: fact that he'd been there.

483
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: Ee. In nineteen eighty, we weren't talking about DNA. No

484
00:25:23,321 --> 00:25:25,001
Speaker 1: one was. It wasn't a thing.

485
00:25:25,481 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: Yes, there were some smart coppers who were looking at

486
00:25:27,961 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: the future, but someone like Montjohn.

487
00:25:29,681 --> 00:25:32,401
Speaker 1: He wasn't thinking about it. Of course he wasn't. He

488
00:25:32,441 --> 00:25:32,881
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing.

489
00:25:32,921 --> 00:25:36,441
Speaker 4: But he was an arrogant, pompous bloke. He was demanding

490
00:25:36,521 --> 00:25:40,001
Speaker 4: to go inside. He clained he wanted to perform the last.

491
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,441
Speaker 1: One, last rights. Didn't that make sense?

492
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 2: It does make sense, And I think I think his

493
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,641
Speaker 2: behavior of suspect but it doesn't. And I think there's

494
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,561
Speaker 2: a fair amount of stereotype being being, as you pointed out,

495
00:25:49,801 --> 00:25:52,521
Speaker 2: loaded onto him as a Catholic priest. And I think

496
00:25:52,561 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: the ABC, you know, with all due respect to my

497
00:25:54,681 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: journalistic colleagues, they got the same tunnel vision that ron Le's.

498
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: Well, And this is a really important point.

499
00:26:02,321 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: The murder of women was not properly under stood in

500
00:26:05,721 --> 00:26:10,081
Speaker 4: policing and the public narrative, but in over the campaigning

501
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:13,281
Speaker 4: over the past thirty years has pointed to a better

502
00:26:13,441 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 4: understanding of who the killers are, and we now know

503
00:26:16,561 --> 00:26:20,441
Speaker 4: their men, who are misogynistic, who treat the killing as

504
00:26:20,481 --> 00:26:24,001
Speaker 4: a conquest, a rape and a conquest. That's Peter Keo

505
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 4: to a t it's not been the history of pedophile priests.

506
00:26:27,681 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 4: We're not not defending pedophile priests of Catholic Church is

507
00:26:30,721 --> 00:26:33,521
Speaker 4: so guilty of horrific covers up.

508
00:26:33,921 --> 00:26:35,721
Speaker 1: But this points to Keo.

509
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,801
Speaker 4: For Ron, it's to say, tell me, Ron, how can

510
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,361
Speaker 4: you say Kio is not a genuine suspect?

511
00:26:41,441 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: Are you?

512
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,281
Speaker 4: Do you not support what the coroner said? Ron, I'd say, Ron,

513
00:26:45,441 --> 00:26:47,561
Speaker 4: do you not agree with what the coroner said that

514
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,281
Speaker 4: he is one of two major suspects?

515
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:51,281
Speaker 2: Well, I think you'd have to say, And I might

516
00:26:51,561 --> 00:26:53,801
Speaker 2: approach Ron and also the ABC to give their view

517
00:26:53,801 --> 00:26:56,041
Speaker 2: on this, maybe Rachael Brown, who did that wonderful podcast.

518
00:26:56,041 --> 00:26:56,321
Speaker 1: I don't.

519
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,201
Speaker 2: I think it was great that they got another inquest

520
00:26:58,201 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: out of this, by the way, because it was dying

521
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,921
Speaker 2: a death because everyone was dead. I mean Keyo died

522
00:27:02,921 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: in what two thousand and one? I think yes, and

523
00:27:04,681 --> 00:27:07,481
Speaker 2: bon Jo shortly after the other priest. I think he's

524
00:27:07,521 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: dead too. The telecom worker's dead. I mean a lot

525
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,321
Speaker 2: of people are dying off here. So I think it

526
00:27:11,321 --> 00:27:13,121
Speaker 2: was great to get another inquest there. But I think

527
00:27:13,441 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: I think what they were expecting in that inquest was

528
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: to rubber stamp the idea that bon John. I was

529
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,641
Speaker 2: the only suspect. He was very inconvenient, philm.

530
00:27:20,801 --> 00:27:25,281
Speaker 4: And look, I think the boys weren't impressed with the

531
00:27:25,281 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 4: evidence I gave. And I don't want to upset Maria's sons,

532
00:27:30,801 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 4: And I don't want to make this a story about Ko.

533
00:27:33,681 --> 00:27:37,801
Speaker 4: It's a story about the murder of a woman and

534
00:27:38,521 --> 00:27:42,761
Speaker 4: uncovering the killer. And I can't help the facts, Adam,

535
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,481
Speaker 4: that the facts, the circumstantial facts, do support the proposition

536
00:27:47,561 --> 00:27:48,721
Speaker 4: that it is Peter Keo.

537
00:27:49,041 --> 00:27:50,481
Speaker 1: And I've got an interest in.

538
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,481
Speaker 4: This, of course, because if Keo had been identified properly

539
00:27:54,481 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty and found guilty, For example, how different

540
00:27:58,201 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 4: would my life be?

541
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,921
Speaker 1: You know, my sister would be alive, Like Keo would

542
00:28:02,921 --> 00:28:04,561
Speaker 1: have been up there in bright lights.

543
00:28:04,761 --> 00:28:08,641
Speaker 4: Even if he wasn't found guilty, if he'd been properly investigated,

544
00:28:08,961 --> 00:28:11,641
Speaker 4: his name would be out there, would have flown across

545
00:28:11,681 --> 00:28:14,921
Speaker 4: the Northern suburbs. We'd all have known that he had

546
00:28:15,001 --> 00:28:18,001
Speaker 4: been interviewed over the Maria James murder. But I did

547
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,441
Speaker 4: not know until a couple of days after the verdict

548
00:28:21,441 --> 00:28:23,801
Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine that he'd been interviewed.

549
00:28:24,001 --> 00:28:27,801
Speaker 2: Well, tell me, how did his name come up and why.

550
00:28:27,761 --> 00:28:28,801
Speaker 1: Was the interview.

551
00:28:28,761 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 4: Because his parole officer, Margaret Hobbs, got her colleague to

552
00:28:34,281 --> 00:28:37,801
Speaker 4: ring the police and tell them that she believed he

553
00:28:38,041 --> 00:28:38,641
Speaker 4: was the killer.

554
00:28:38,761 --> 00:28:41,561
Speaker 1: She described him as a woman hater.

555
00:28:42,201 --> 00:28:46,841
Speaker 4: And believed he had a connection to Maria James, her

556
00:28:46,961 --> 00:28:50,761
Speaker 4: colleague who rang the police. I interviewed some years later,

557
00:28:50,801 --> 00:28:53,161
Speaker 4: around the two thousand and max. He told me, he said,

558
00:28:53,441 --> 00:28:56,921
Speaker 4: Margaret Hobbs told me that Keo had been going out.

559
00:28:56,761 --> 00:29:00,921
Speaker 1: With Maria James and she believed he killed her.

560
00:29:01,401 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: Now, so you wouldn't have divulge this to Margaret Hobbs,

561
00:29:04,481 --> 00:29:06,721
Speaker 4: who was his therapist parole officer.

562
00:29:06,921 --> 00:29:10,041
Speaker 1: Did he divulge it? I don't know. It's not out

563
00:29:10,081 --> 00:29:10,641
Speaker 1: of the question.

564
00:29:11,161 --> 00:29:13,601
Speaker 2: And so they go along with him as a pretty

565
00:29:13,601 --> 00:29:16,401
Speaker 2: good suspect with a profile of misogynism.

566
00:29:17,361 --> 00:29:20,001
Speaker 4: But it didn't seem to explore that they did a

567
00:29:20,041 --> 00:29:23,681
Speaker 4: brief interview with him, they didn't take a police statement.

568
00:29:23,721 --> 00:29:26,601
Speaker 1: The coroner says this was wrong. Why did they not.

569
00:29:26,641 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 4: Do a proper police statement? And his judimate not he

570
00:29:29,601 --> 00:29:32,681
Speaker 4: his alibi, didn't do a proper police statement. There is

571
00:29:32,761 --> 00:29:35,641
Speaker 4: no police statement. She was just asked and she said

572
00:29:35,641 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 4: he was probably with me words to that effect, and

573
00:29:38,281 --> 00:29:41,041
Speaker 4: a year and a bit later, she's sitting with her

574
00:29:41,161 --> 00:29:45,321
Speaker 4: sister and her sister's ringing homicide to say, Peter Keo

575
00:29:45,521 --> 00:29:46,161
Speaker 4: is the killer?

576
00:29:46,841 --> 00:29:50,681
Speaker 1: What I mean, knock me over with a feather. There

577
00:29:50,681 --> 00:29:52,361
Speaker 1: were so many mistakes in this investigation.

578
00:29:52,441 --> 00:29:54,601
Speaker 2: The very first one which shocked me really, and it

579
00:29:54,641 --> 00:29:57,881
Speaker 2: happened again with the Carmen Chan investigation, the mister Crule link.

580
00:29:57,961 --> 00:30:01,681
Speaker 2: There was the police set up at the crime scene,

581
00:30:01,881 --> 00:30:04,761
Speaker 2: They set up within the crime scene, so whatever trace

582
00:30:04,801 --> 00:30:07,481
Speaker 2: ever that was left there was always going to be contaminated.

583
00:30:07,481 --> 00:30:09,921
Speaker 2: Why because the police were tramping in and out of

584
00:30:09,921 --> 00:30:14,201
Speaker 2: that bookstore and the residence for weeks after it. And

585
00:30:14,441 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: the same thing happened with Carmen Chan. They set up

586
00:30:16,481 --> 00:30:19,561
Speaker 2: the command post within the Chan household where young Carmen

587
00:30:19,641 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: was taken from. Therefore, any evidence that remained there was

588
00:30:22,761 --> 00:30:26,841
Speaker 2: going to be contaminated. And then the DNA was so

589
00:30:27,121 --> 00:30:30,561
Speaker 2: shockingly mishandled. Like my question first off would be what

590
00:30:30,561 --> 00:30:33,161
Speaker 2: happened to the two teacups? What happened to those that

591
00:30:33,201 --> 00:30:35,361
Speaker 2: should be something that should be somewhere inevidence Some.

592
00:30:35,561 --> 00:30:38,121
Speaker 4: Dispute as to whether the two were used or not.

593
00:30:38,601 --> 00:30:41,441
Speaker 4: I read it carefully, but well, there was so much

594
00:30:41,521 --> 00:30:44,521
Speaker 4: that went wrong. A woman Janette, who was driving up

595
00:30:44,841 --> 00:30:48,041
Speaker 4: High Street. She was interviewed I think in the caravan

596
00:30:48,441 --> 00:30:49,881
Speaker 4: outside the bookshop.

597
00:30:50,561 --> 00:30:52,081
Speaker 1: You know how traumatic for her.

598
00:30:52,201 --> 00:30:55,321
Speaker 4: She's seen the likely killer of Maria James and they

599
00:30:55,361 --> 00:30:58,001
Speaker 4: take her back to the caravan to interview her.

600
00:30:58,161 --> 00:31:00,281
Speaker 1: But also on that, wouldn't you think if.

601
00:31:00,161 --> 00:31:05,121
Speaker 4: You'd interviewed Peter keoh, and he's got this history of misogyny,

602
00:31:05,681 --> 00:31:08,241
Speaker 4: wouldn't you have had his photo out there and shown

603
00:31:08,281 --> 00:31:10,481
Speaker 4: it to the woman who drove up the street? I mean,

604
00:31:10,801 --> 00:31:13,841
Speaker 4: would you go, oh, no, he's got an alibi. Well, really,

605
00:31:14,241 --> 00:31:16,921
Speaker 4: it's mad. You surely had to seize photo.

606
00:31:17,001 --> 00:31:19,361
Speaker 2: And again I'm speculating here, but I think the missing

607
00:31:19,601 --> 00:31:25,121
Speaker 2: part of the whole thing is misogyny, right, because they're

608
00:31:25,161 --> 00:31:29,001
Speaker 2: looking for a motive that makes sense. You've got the

609
00:31:29,201 --> 00:31:32,001
Speaker 2: guy trying to sell the parade magazine who comes there.

610
00:31:32,041 --> 00:31:35,601
Speaker 2: It's a questionable publication. It's got sex, murders and things covered.

611
00:31:35,801 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: Maria doesn't like it. They have an argument, he leaves.

612
00:31:38,561 --> 00:31:42,241
Speaker 2: That's a motive. You've got the telecom worker who he

613
00:31:42,281 --> 00:31:44,761
Speaker 2: may or may not have a relationship with Maria. He's

614
00:31:44,801 --> 00:31:49,801
Speaker 2: a suspect, even her estranged husband, John James, he's summoned

615
00:31:49,841 --> 00:31:52,601
Speaker 2: down there. They have to eliminate him, but I think

616
00:31:52,641 --> 00:31:56,961
Speaker 2: they've used a higher evidentiary bar than what they used

617
00:31:57,001 --> 00:32:00,721
Speaker 2: for Peter Keo, who, as it turned out, was much

618
00:32:00,801 --> 00:32:03,561
Speaker 2: more likely in his psychological profile to be the killer

619
00:32:03,601 --> 00:32:05,881
Speaker 2: than any of those people, roam through the.

620
00:32:05,881 --> 00:32:11,721
Speaker 4: Northern suburbs plucking women at will whenever he could. And Sharie,

621
00:32:11,801 --> 00:32:14,561
Speaker 4: who gave evidence at the inquest about his attack on

622
00:32:14,641 --> 00:32:16,921
Speaker 4: her in Cobourg some years earlier. Is it just a

623
00:32:16,961 --> 00:32:22,321
Speaker 4: prime exit that well, she was at the Croxton Park hotel.

624
00:32:22,921 --> 00:32:26,321
Speaker 4: I think it was around nineteen seventy. He struck up

625
00:32:26,361 --> 00:32:29,681
Speaker 4: the conversation with her at the bar and said something

626
00:32:29,721 --> 00:32:32,361
Speaker 4: about a car, and she said, oh, yeah, I'm looking

627
00:32:32,401 --> 00:32:34,601
Speaker 4: for a car or smashed my car or it was

628
00:32:34,641 --> 00:32:37,361
Speaker 4: either the other way around. Anyway, you managed to get

629
00:32:37,361 --> 00:32:40,681
Speaker 4: her address out of her to come around and look

630
00:32:40,721 --> 00:32:44,801
Speaker 4: at a car. He went around there, discovered that there

631
00:32:44,881 --> 00:32:47,361
Speaker 4: was no one home, and he put his foot through

632
00:32:47,361 --> 00:32:49,361
Speaker 4: the door and he attacked her.

633
00:32:50,041 --> 00:32:51,001
Speaker 1: He attacked her.

634
00:32:51,361 --> 00:32:55,321
Speaker 4: And she saw the knife, glistening knife, and he had

635
00:32:55,441 --> 00:32:58,121
Speaker 4: rope in his pocket. But she managed to get up

636
00:32:58,201 --> 00:33:00,841
Speaker 4: and run away out of the place and she found

637
00:33:00,921 --> 00:33:05,641
Speaker 4: safety sanctuary. Unbelievable that she survived. But anyway, but he

638
00:33:05,801 --> 00:33:08,761
Speaker 4: go to the police. He goes and tells them that

639
00:33:09,001 --> 00:33:11,321
Speaker 4: he drove down to Sydney Road with her in the car,

640
00:33:11,441 --> 00:33:11,801
Speaker 4: and so.

641
00:33:11,761 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: He lies about it all and they just took it in.

642
00:33:14,721 --> 00:33:19,161
Speaker 4: He should have gone to jail for attempted rape and attack.

643
00:33:19,481 --> 00:33:20,201
Speaker 1: He got a.

644
00:33:20,441 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: One pound fine I think for this attack on a

645
00:33:23,481 --> 00:33:26,161
Speaker 4: woman when you read it, they did it in a paragraph.

646
00:33:26,361 --> 00:33:30,361
Speaker 4: But when Shari gave her evidence at the inquest, and

647
00:33:30,441 --> 00:33:36,041
Speaker 4: it's horrific, it's an horrific attempted rape, assault, threatening to.

648
00:33:36,081 --> 00:33:37,481
Speaker 1: Kill her with a knife.

649
00:33:37,561 --> 00:33:40,761
Speaker 4: He should have gone to jail, but they didn't even

650
00:33:40,841 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 4: prosecute himrobably, and he got was a minor assault charge.

651
00:33:44,521 --> 00:33:47,361
Speaker 4: And as I said, a mya vine. So this was

652
00:33:47,761 --> 00:33:51,241
Speaker 4: this was his modus operandi. This was how he behaved

653
00:33:51,281 --> 00:33:55,041
Speaker 4: throughout the Northern suburbs. And there were other women he assaulted,

654
00:33:55,081 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 4: you know, it wouldn't come forward.

655
00:33:56,761 --> 00:33:59,601
Speaker 1: And years later I've had women tell.

656
00:33:59,441 --> 00:34:04,081
Speaker 4: Me about him assaulting them, attacking them, raping them, kidnapping them,

657
00:34:04,441 --> 00:34:07,041
Speaker 4: you know. Again and again people have contacted me. So

658
00:34:07,681 --> 00:34:10,481
Speaker 4: there you have it, and the police missed a trick,

659
00:34:11,121 --> 00:34:13,041
Speaker 4: and yet he was in there from They didn't have

660
00:34:13,121 --> 00:34:16,841
Speaker 4: to go looking for him on a database. His parole

661
00:34:16,881 --> 00:34:19,921
Speaker 4: officer told them, so just go on plants possible. Let's

662
00:34:19,921 --> 00:34:22,121
Speaker 4: have a little bit to show the photo to the

663
00:34:22,121 --> 00:34:24,041
Speaker 4: woman who nearly ran over the keller.

664
00:34:24,441 --> 00:34:24,641
Speaker 1: Yeah.

665
00:34:25,001 --> 00:34:28,561
Speaker 2: It So the emergence of Keo after all these years

666
00:34:29,161 --> 00:34:32,121
Speaker 2: as the potential killer is inconvenient to the narrative.

667
00:34:32,161 --> 00:34:33,481
Speaker 1: That's whether that's been established.

668
00:34:33,481 --> 00:34:37,481
Speaker 2: And I do feel for the James family, her sons

669
00:34:37,841 --> 00:34:40,441
Speaker 2: having to deal now with the fact that there was

670
00:34:40,481 --> 00:34:43,841
Speaker 2: tunnel vision and you came and gave evidence, and you've

671
00:34:43,881 --> 00:34:47,121
Speaker 2: said that you feel unhappy that it made them unhammed.

672
00:34:47,481 --> 00:34:48,401
Speaker 1: What was your evidence?

673
00:34:49,361 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 4: Everything I've told you what Keo said to VICKI that's

674
00:34:54,481 --> 00:34:57,241
Speaker 4: a statement of fact. I mean, Chris Wheeler, who was

675
00:34:57,561 --> 00:34:59,921
Speaker 4: Vicky's boyfriend at the time's not going to make that up.

676
00:34:59,961 --> 00:35:02,521
Speaker 4: He didn't know anything about the Thornbry bookshop, didn't know

677
00:35:02,601 --> 00:35:03,521
Speaker 4: a thing about it.

678
00:35:04,001 --> 00:35:04,801
Speaker 1: So there you have that.

679
00:35:04,801 --> 00:35:09,561
Speaker 4: F the fact that Margaret Hobbes, his parole officer, named him,

680
00:35:10,161 --> 00:35:14,961
Speaker 4: the fact that his alibi, Judy McNulty, named him and

681
00:35:15,081 --> 00:35:18,041
Speaker 4: had her sister's ring homicide a year and a bit

682
00:35:18,121 --> 00:35:20,561
Speaker 4: after the murder to say he was the killer.

683
00:35:21,121 --> 00:35:22,961
Speaker 1: The fact that they was in the alibi.

684
00:35:23,121 --> 00:35:26,161
Speaker 4: She rescinded the alibi for sure, and they weren't interviewed

685
00:35:26,201 --> 00:35:26,721
Speaker 4: by the police.

686
00:35:26,801 --> 00:35:28,281
Speaker 1: If the police had gone round.

687
00:35:28,081 --> 00:35:31,561
Speaker 4: To those two women who rang that night, who rang homicide,

688
00:35:31,601 --> 00:35:34,641
Speaker 4: they'd have been told that these two women were the

689
00:35:34,801 --> 00:35:38,441
Speaker 4: sisters of the alibi. So the sisters of the alibi

690
00:35:38,481 --> 00:35:40,041
Speaker 4: would have been interviewed, and that would have meant the

691
00:35:40,081 --> 00:35:42,401
Speaker 4: alibi would have been interviewed, and Judy mcnoley would have

692
00:35:42,441 --> 00:35:45,441
Speaker 4: been interviewed, and she would have said it was a lie.

693
00:35:45,481 --> 00:35:48,361
Speaker 1: Or I'm not sure or or whatever she was going

694
00:35:48,361 --> 00:35:50,961
Speaker 1: to say. She was terrified of Kio. She was frightened.

695
00:35:51,121 --> 00:35:53,681
Speaker 1: That's why she got her sisters to ring. She was frightened.

696
00:35:54,281 --> 00:35:57,361
Speaker 4: So there's are all the bits and pieces of the evidence.

697
00:35:57,881 --> 00:36:02,961
Speaker 4: Keo tells my sister, Keo's alibi is rescinded, and Judy

698
00:36:03,121 --> 00:36:07,881
Speaker 4: and her sister drives flat Dot says on the day

699
00:36:07,961 --> 00:36:10,801
Speaker 4: of the murder, to get him a change of clothes.

700
00:36:11,241 --> 00:36:13,921
Speaker 1: Why, Adam, why why?

701
00:36:14,641 --> 00:36:17,761
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the change of clothes thing is comes up

702
00:36:17,761 --> 00:36:21,801
Speaker 2: in three come three guys to see Bonno is seen

703
00:36:21,881 --> 00:36:25,761
Speaker 2: by the electrician working at the presbytery covered in blood supposed.

704
00:36:25,361 --> 00:36:29,161
Speaker 4: To supposedly, yeah, you do you believe that? No, it's

705
00:36:29,321 --> 00:36:31,561
Speaker 4: years and years later, and it's after the man reads

706
00:36:31,561 --> 00:36:34,081
Speaker 4: a Facebook post and he never said anything at the time.

707
00:36:34,321 --> 00:36:36,721
Speaker 1: It's a big story in the Northern suburbs.

708
00:36:36,801 --> 00:36:38,481
Speaker 4: But he doesn't go to the police and say, I

709
00:36:38,681 --> 00:36:41,841
Speaker 4: saw the parish priest who's one hundred meters from the

710
00:36:41,841 --> 00:36:43,081
Speaker 4: bookshop covered in blood.

711
00:36:43,321 --> 00:36:44,641
Speaker 1: Explanation for that might be.

712
00:36:45,161 --> 00:36:47,361
Speaker 4: I'd never imagine that it'd be a priest who'd be

713
00:36:47,361 --> 00:36:50,601
Speaker 4: the suspect, But it doesn't make sense. Years later, and

714
00:36:50,641 --> 00:36:52,601
Speaker 4: then there's story is that, you know, we heard the

715
00:36:52,761 --> 00:36:57,241
Speaker 4: Italian housekeeper yelling at bon Jorno and they say there

716
00:36:57,281 --> 00:37:00,481
Speaker 4: wasn't an Italian housekeeper and no one speaking in Italian,

717
00:37:00,801 --> 00:37:04,081
Speaker 4: And again bon Jiorno appearing outside the bookshop after the

718
00:37:04,161 --> 00:37:05,001
Speaker 4: murder do not make sense.

719
00:37:05,081 --> 00:37:06,521
Speaker 1: I mean, also, he had an alibi.

720
00:37:06,881 --> 00:37:09,921
Speaker 4: O'Connor, the priest from the parish, priest from Coburg, said.

721
00:37:09,721 --> 00:37:11,921
Speaker 1: They had a lunch. Now that's disputed.

722
00:37:12,041 --> 00:37:14,721
Speaker 4: It could be a lie, but I'm inclined to think

723
00:37:14,761 --> 00:37:17,681
Speaker 4: o connor was probably telling the truth about the meeting.

724
00:37:17,761 --> 00:37:19,121
Speaker 1: But anyway. Yeah.

725
00:37:19,201 --> 00:37:21,641
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this all winds up to the fact that

726
00:37:22,281 --> 00:37:26,201
Speaker 2: a lot of the very strong evidence that was used

727
00:37:26,321 --> 00:37:28,681
Speaker 2: is not so strong anymore when it's really back at

728
00:37:28,721 --> 00:37:31,041
Speaker 2: square one that's investigating, and you wonder where it goes

729
00:37:31,081 --> 00:37:31,761
Speaker 2: through from here.

730
00:37:32,721 --> 00:37:32,921
Speaker 1: Yeah.

731
00:37:34,401 --> 00:37:38,281
Speaker 4: I don't know what else you can unearth. I don't

732
00:37:38,281 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 4: know what else. Someone maybe knows something. Does Keo's ex

733
00:37:44,121 --> 00:37:49,481
Speaker 4: partner knows something? The mother of his son, does she

734
00:37:49,601 --> 00:37:54,961
Speaker 4: know something? Damien's mother. I can't be sure, except that

735
00:37:55,241 --> 00:37:58,681
Speaker 4: so many people think he did it. People closer to

736
00:37:58,761 --> 00:38:02,561
Speaker 4: Keo reckon that he divulged things and talked about not

737
00:38:02,601 --> 00:38:05,441
Speaker 4: wanting to go near the bookshop for fear that, you know,

738
00:38:05,601 --> 00:38:08,201
Speaker 4: someone ha'd be hounding him about the murder. But it's

739
00:38:08,281 --> 00:38:11,161
Speaker 4: just got his name all over. It doesn't mean it's him.

740
00:38:11,361 --> 00:38:13,881
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's frustrating. There's still a million dollars on offer

741
00:38:13,881 --> 00:38:16,801
Speaker 2: from Victoria, and the mistakes that were made in the

742
00:38:16,921 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 2: DNA and the crime scene and so forth probably mean

743
00:38:19,521 --> 00:38:24,081
Speaker 2: this can't be sold. But as you say, there's probably

744
00:38:24,081 --> 00:38:27,001
Speaker 2: someone out there with some information that can still you know,

745
00:38:27,041 --> 00:38:29,201
Speaker 2: I think parole Ron it'll he'll probably go to his

746
00:38:29,281 --> 00:38:32,321
Speaker 2: grave thinking it's Monjno But if you've brought the.

747
00:38:32,321 --> 00:38:36,521
Speaker 4: Narrative felt well, why did Keo say to Vicky, I'll

748
00:38:36,561 --> 00:38:38,361
Speaker 4: do to you what I did to the woman in

749
00:38:38,401 --> 00:38:39,041
Speaker 4: the bookshop.

750
00:38:39,281 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: Why did he need to say that?

751
00:38:41,681 --> 00:38:46,121
Speaker 4: Vicky already knew that he had some form I think

752
00:38:46,361 --> 00:38:48,881
Speaker 4: in that he would have bragged. He would have bragged

753
00:38:48,921 --> 00:38:52,961
Speaker 4: about his rough and tumble background, and he'd already been

754
00:38:53,081 --> 00:38:55,801
Speaker 4: violent to her. He didn't need to add this layer

755
00:38:55,921 --> 00:39:01,201
Speaker 4: about the bookshop. Why did his parole officer, Margaret Hobbs

756
00:39:01,321 --> 00:39:04,641
Speaker 4: name him as the killer? Why did the sisters drive

757
00:39:04,761 --> 00:39:08,321
Speaker 4: to the flat to get a change of clothing. Why

758
00:39:08,321 --> 00:39:12,121
Speaker 4: did people at the Junction hotel say Maria James was

759
00:39:12,121 --> 00:39:18,801
Speaker 4: his missus? Maria James's hairdresser cut Peter Keo's mother's hair.

760
00:39:19,441 --> 00:39:20,961
Speaker 2: There were links, you could put them on the board.

761
00:39:20,961 --> 00:39:23,441
Speaker 2: There were little strings and pins and flags.

762
00:39:23,481 --> 00:39:27,441
Speaker 4: But I'll tell you one thing's for sure. Keo knew

763
00:39:28,001 --> 00:39:32,881
Speaker 4: Maria James. He knew the shop, he knew she worked there.

764
00:39:33,441 --> 00:39:36,001
Speaker 4: He knew what her hours would have been, he knew

765
00:39:36,161 --> 00:39:39,481
Speaker 4: she would have been alone. Was ke the man that

766
00:39:39,601 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 4: the woman saw in the shop that morning, the woman

767
00:39:42,481 --> 00:39:46,441
Speaker 4: who rang John Sylvester? Every chance it's him he'd be

768
00:39:46,641 --> 00:39:49,121
Speaker 4: staking the place, you know, casing the place.

769
00:39:49,281 --> 00:39:53,161
Speaker 2: One final question for you, Phil Keo ends up killing himself.

770
00:39:53,201 --> 00:39:58,601
Speaker 4: Why Keo had a girlfriend and he went down to

771
00:39:59,721 --> 00:40:04,121
Speaker 4: Gippsland Way to live. The woman eventually rang me, and

772
00:40:04,161 --> 00:40:07,081
Speaker 4: her friends rang me to say they were worried she'd

773
00:40:07,121 --> 00:40:09,761
Speaker 4: been with Peter Kyo, she'd separated from him. He was

774
00:40:09,801 --> 00:40:14,161
Speaker 4: threatening her, I said, read my nineteen ninety eight book

775
00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:17,841
Speaker 4: Clearing Independent, read the chapter on Ko and you'll see

776
00:40:17,841 --> 00:40:22,001
Speaker 4: that he's a dangerous man. He did murder my sister ruthlessly.

777
00:40:22,641 --> 00:40:25,161
Speaker 4: Kio had told her the story that it was all accidental,

778
00:40:25,561 --> 00:40:29,041
Speaker 4: that he'd gone to see Vicki at the kindergarten and

779
00:40:29,081 --> 00:40:32,521
Speaker 4: they'd had a fight and she was accidentally stabbed. Accidentally,

780
00:40:32,561 --> 00:40:34,561
Speaker 4: that's what he told her. So she was believing that

781
00:40:34,601 --> 00:40:36,921
Speaker 4: how many times was his dad? Ah? Yeah, multiple like

782
00:40:37,041 --> 00:40:41,281
Speaker 4: a dozen acid half a dozen really serious wounds, you know,

783
00:40:41,321 --> 00:40:43,761
Speaker 4: at least six seven to her liver and her face

784
00:40:43,961 --> 00:40:46,481
Speaker 4: multiple times, and he tried to stab her multiple times.

785
00:40:46,521 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: More times.

786
00:40:47,001 --> 00:40:49,481
Speaker 4: He would have tried to stab her twenty to thirty times,

787
00:40:49,481 --> 00:40:52,601
Speaker 4: but he landed at least six seven eight serious wounds.

788
00:40:52,841 --> 00:40:56,041
Speaker 4: But so the woman I speak to who's been Keo's

789
00:40:56,081 --> 00:40:58,761
Speaker 4: ex girlfriend is separated from him.

790
00:40:59,201 --> 00:41:00,961
Speaker 1: I get the Herald's son to go down.

791
00:41:01,041 --> 00:41:03,161
Speaker 4: I wring them and I say you should go down.

792
00:41:03,321 --> 00:41:07,081
Speaker 4: She's in the magistrate's court intervention order. So they go down.

793
00:41:07,201 --> 00:41:10,721
Speaker 4: They snap a photo of him. He's livid about it.

794
00:41:11,201 --> 00:41:14,801
Speaker 4: He is so outraged that they photographed him. He wrings

795
00:41:14,841 --> 00:41:17,361
Speaker 4: the Herald's son and he gets through to the photographer

796
00:41:17,761 --> 00:41:20,921
Speaker 4: and he beerates her and it's terrifying for her.

797
00:41:21,281 --> 00:41:24,601
Speaker 1: Anyway, a little while later, what do you reckon? Happens?

798
00:41:25,361 --> 00:41:26,321
Speaker 1: The house of the.

799
00:41:26,241 --> 00:41:29,521
Speaker 4: Woman that he'd been with is burnt down. It's an

800
00:41:29,681 --> 00:41:33,961
Speaker 4: arson attack. The police established that it is an arson

801
00:41:34,041 --> 00:41:39,321
Speaker 4: attack on her house, burnt to the ground. I hassle

802
00:41:39,601 --> 00:41:41,921
Speaker 4: the arson squad about Ko. I said, you've got to

803
00:41:41,921 --> 00:41:45,561
Speaker 4: stop this bloke. He's dangerous. He's going to kill And

804
00:41:45,601 --> 00:41:47,641
Speaker 4: someone in a police headquarters said, oh, well, you know,

805
00:41:48,001 --> 00:41:49,721
Speaker 4: we have to be sure that it is him, and

806
00:41:49,921 --> 00:41:51,841
Speaker 4: he has to be making threats for us to intervene.

807
00:41:51,881 --> 00:41:54,841
Speaker 4: I said, well, I'll take this conversation down. I'm telling you,

808
00:41:54,881 --> 00:41:57,641
Speaker 4: if he does something, I'll be on public on this. Anyway,

809
00:41:57,961 --> 00:42:01,321
Speaker 4: Keo knows he's in trouble. The homicide squad told me

810
00:42:01,841 --> 00:42:06,241
Speaker 4: that all the facts pointed to him. The investigation Jack Jacobs,

811
00:42:06,241 --> 00:42:08,721
Speaker 4: who'd been the detective who told me that Keo had

812
00:42:08,761 --> 00:42:11,081
Speaker 4: an alibi back in eighty nine, had now become an

813
00:42:11,081 --> 00:42:16,081
Speaker 4: insurance investigator. Jack Jacobs he tells me that Keo is

814
00:42:16,121 --> 00:42:20,241
Speaker 4: the only suspect in the arson attack on the house.

815
00:42:21,401 --> 00:42:25,041
Speaker 4: Keo knows he's going to go to jail. There's my take.

816
00:42:25,361 --> 00:42:28,641
Speaker 4: He knows I've cornered him. He knows I've put him

817
00:42:28,641 --> 00:42:31,361
Speaker 4: in the frame. He's howling to the coppers about me.

818
00:42:31,481 --> 00:42:33,721
Speaker 4: He's telling the coppers, Oh, this is all because Bill

819
00:42:33,801 --> 00:42:36,361
Speaker 4: Cleary used to be in Parliament. He's hassling me here.

820
00:42:36,401 --> 00:42:39,161
Speaker 4: I was hassling him. I was putting him in the frame.

821
00:42:39,401 --> 00:42:41,761
Speaker 4: I was telling them, you've got to catch him this time.

822
00:42:41,961 --> 00:42:45,081
Speaker 4: He's gotten away with this before. Anyway, he commits suicide

823
00:42:45,401 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 4: in Mansfield Street. Did I drive him into a state

824
00:42:48,561 --> 00:42:52,361
Speaker 4: of panic? Yes, because what he did and I was

825
00:42:52,401 --> 00:42:56,441
Speaker 4: protecting me, my family. I was living here in Brunswick

826
00:42:56,601 --> 00:43:00,921
Speaker 4: worried about that man. I'm worried about my family because

827
00:43:01,001 --> 00:43:03,041
Speaker 4: I've been going after him for years.

828
00:43:03,441 --> 00:43:06,241
Speaker 1: I'm looking out. I went searching for him.

829
00:43:06,561 --> 00:43:10,761
Speaker 4: I searched around around Preston at night, drove around to

830
00:43:10,961 --> 00:43:13,041
Speaker 4: just check to see if I could find where he was,

831
00:43:13,121 --> 00:43:13,961
Speaker 4: so I at least.

832
00:43:13,881 --> 00:43:17,081
Speaker 1: Knew if he was in my patch. I wanted to know.

833
00:43:17,561 --> 00:43:19,641
Speaker 4: I wanted to be sure he wasn't going to get

834
00:43:19,641 --> 00:43:21,041
Speaker 4: away with it again anyway.

835
00:43:21,521 --> 00:43:22,401
Speaker 1: I put the pressure.

836
00:43:22,401 --> 00:43:25,481
Speaker 4: I rang the Junction Hotel because he'd been drinking there,

837
00:43:25,601 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 4: and I said to the barman, Oh, you've had Keo

838
00:43:28,041 --> 00:43:30,001
Speaker 4: in there drinking, haven't you? And he said, what do

839
00:43:30,001 --> 00:43:32,361
Speaker 4: you mean? I said, what's it like? Poor and beer

840
00:43:32,441 --> 00:43:35,081
Speaker 4: for a murderer? Said that Blake murdered my sister and

841
00:43:35,121 --> 00:43:37,681
Speaker 4: now he's torched a house. I said, you know, give

842
00:43:37,761 --> 00:43:42,561
Speaker 4: him my regards, lo and behold well, after the house

843
00:43:42,601 --> 00:43:44,321
Speaker 4: has burnt, he commits suicide.

844
00:43:45,081 --> 00:43:46,241
Speaker 1: Why you asked me? Why?

845
00:43:46,281 --> 00:43:48,921
Speaker 4: Because he knew he was going to get pinned. And

846
00:43:49,161 --> 00:43:52,121
Speaker 4: arson is a serious offense, Adam, isn't it? You get

847
00:43:52,121 --> 00:43:53,081
Speaker 4: a big jail sentence.

848
00:43:53,441 --> 00:43:55,401
Speaker 2: Well, And also, I mean, what else has he done?

849
00:43:55,681 --> 00:43:57,121
Speaker 2: Maria James one of the things.

850
00:43:57,881 --> 00:44:00,881
Speaker 4: And I think he was certainly worried about Maria James.

851
00:44:01,041 --> 00:44:03,681
Speaker 4: I think he believed I was onto that because I

852
00:44:03,801 --> 00:44:06,801
Speaker 4: had I had said things and he knew that I

853
00:44:07,561 --> 00:44:10,961
Speaker 4: was tracking him, and I'd written about him previously, you know,

854
00:44:11,361 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 4: and in articles and in my book in nineteen ninety eight,

855
00:44:14,641 --> 00:44:16,441
Speaker 4: and of course I put a new book out. Just

856
00:44:16,521 --> 00:44:19,561
Speaker 4: another little murder came out after he committed suicide. But

857
00:44:19,641 --> 00:44:21,481
Speaker 4: he knew I was tracking him. He told the coppers

858
00:44:21,481 --> 00:44:24,601
Speaker 4: I was tracking him. So he committed suicide because he

859
00:44:24,681 --> 00:44:26,841
Speaker 4: knew he was going to be in the frame for

860
00:44:27,041 --> 00:44:30,321
Speaker 4: Arson and Maria James and other matters.

861
00:44:31,521 --> 00:44:34,641
Speaker 2: Phil, thank you very much. You've done an amazing job.

862
00:44:34,721 --> 00:44:39,321
Speaker 2: One man am an investigation here, that's really and I

863
00:44:39,401 --> 00:44:41,641
Speaker 2: think that's what the community would expect. That if there

864
00:44:41,681 --> 00:44:44,601
Speaker 2: is tunnel vision and there was around Bonjoorno, that other

865
00:44:44,641 --> 00:44:47,321
Speaker 2: possibilities that put out and that's what the family would want.

866
00:44:47,561 --> 00:44:49,441
Speaker 2: Obviously this has not been convenient for them, but I

867
00:44:49,441 --> 00:44:50,281
Speaker 2: thank you for doing it.

868
00:44:50,721 --> 00:44:50,881
Speaker 1: Well.

869
00:44:50,961 --> 00:44:54,121
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, we want the right person in the frame,

870
00:44:54,201 --> 00:44:55,481
Speaker 4: don't we.

871
00:44:55,481 --> 00:44:56,681
Speaker 1: We don't want the wrong.

872
00:44:56,521 --> 00:44:59,601
Speaker 4: Person in the frame. We want to condemn bond Jorno,

873
00:45:00,521 --> 00:45:03,161
Speaker 4: but condemn him for the right things. What he was

874
00:45:03,241 --> 00:45:07,121
Speaker 4: doing to young kids elsewhere. You know, that's all some

875
00:45:07,281 --> 00:45:09,441
Speaker 4: of a ledge, but there's no doubt he was no good.

876
00:45:09,961 --> 00:45:12,481
Speaker 1: Was he a killer? Was he a killer, and we

877
00:45:12,641 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: know Keo was a killer, so that's interesting. Phil, thanks

878
00:45:15,481 --> 00:45:17,681
Speaker 1: for tome mate you Adam. Great to talk with you.

879
00:45:17,761 --> 00:45:20,241
Speaker 1: As always, as always we can find more things. We're

880
00:45:20,281 --> 00:45:22,201
Speaker 1: talking again. I love the way. I love the way

881
00:45:22,201 --> 00:45:22,681
Speaker 1: you operate.

882
00:45:25,321 --> 00:45:27,681
Speaker 2: That's Phil Cleary on the murder of Maria James and

883
00:45:27,721 --> 00:45:30,801
Speaker 2: the fact that Peter Raymond Keo should have been in

884
00:45:30,841 --> 00:45:32,361
Speaker 2: the frame early on and he wasn't.

885
00:45:32,681 --> 00:45:33,761
Speaker 1: I think the one.

886
00:45:33,601 --> 00:45:38,281
Speaker 2: Thing that provides hope for this case is that somewhere

887
00:45:38,321 --> 00:45:41,561
Speaker 2: in the bowels and the archives and the cold case

888
00:45:41,561 --> 00:45:46,961
Speaker 2: freezers of Victoria Police, there is DNA evidence. The pillow slips,

889
00:45:47,321 --> 00:45:50,721
Speaker 2: the teacups, the other things, if they weren't contaminated by

890
00:45:50,721 --> 00:45:54,281
Speaker 2: the police walking all around the crime scene, they still exist.

891
00:45:54,361 --> 00:45:57,441
Speaker 2: And I think we're also seeing incredible advances in DNA

892
00:45:57,561 --> 00:46:01,281
Speaker 2: where even partial DNA being examined with the benefit of

893
00:46:01,361 --> 00:46:03,001
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence, is.

894
00:46:03,001 --> 00:46:06,041
Speaker 1: Now yielding usable profile. That's the one hope.

895
00:46:06,241 --> 00:46:09,361
Speaker 2: But also there could be someone out there who's never

896
00:46:09,401 --> 00:46:12,201
Speaker 2: given their evidence. Maybe you waited all these years because

897
00:46:12,241 --> 00:46:14,921
Speaker 2: you wait to wait for someone to die. Don't keep waiting.

898
00:46:14,921 --> 00:46:17,361
Speaker 2: Phil's nodding here, don't keep waiting. Get in, Get in,

899
00:46:17,361 --> 00:46:20,241
Speaker 2: touch with Crime Stoppers one one hundred, Triple three, triple zero.

900
00:46:20,321 --> 00:46:22,361
Speaker 2: Give the evidence that you have. It may be a fragment,

901
00:46:22,401 --> 00:46:25,041
Speaker 2: but could be that little missing piece that makes a difference.

902
00:46:25,401 --> 00:46:26,841
Speaker 1: If you're scared of the cops or you don't want

903
00:46:26,841 --> 00:46:27,121
Speaker 1: to talk to.

904
00:46:27,121 --> 00:46:29,561
Speaker 2: Them, please give to me an email Adam Shanner, writer

905
00:46:29,601 --> 00:46:32,241
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com and I will definitely follow it up.

906
00:46:32,561 --> 00:46:34,721
Speaker 1: This has been Adam shan for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.