1 00:00:03,660 --> 00:00:06,530 Sean: Welcome to the Fear & Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:10,270 Sean: Weight loss is big business. And in the digital age, 3 00:00:10,270 --> 00:00:13,670 Sean: it's all about how technology can help people live healthier 4 00:00:13,730 --> 00:00:17,500 Sean: lives. Digital Wellness is an Australian tech company backing some 5 00:00:17,500 --> 00:00:20,300 Sean: of the biggest weight loss programs in the world. Think 6 00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:23,900 Sean: the Mayo clinic diet in the US, or the CSIRO 7 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,920 Sean: Total Wellbeing Diet here in Australia. Digital Wellness now partners 8 00:00:27,940 --> 00:00:31,750 Sean: 22 of 28 health funds in Australia. Scott Penn is the 9 00:00:31,750 --> 00:00:34,900 Sean: founder and CEO of Digital Wellness, also the co- owner 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,659 Sean: of the Manly National Rugby league team. He's back in Australia from 11 00:00:38,659 --> 00:00:42,010 Sean: New York for a little while, so we thought we'd grab him for a chat. Scott, 12 00:00:42,010 --> 00:00:42,540 Sean: welcome to Fear & Greed. 13 00:00:43,350 --> 00:00:44,760 Scott: Thanks, Sean. Great to be here. 14 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:49,019 Sean: For those that don't know you Scott, your own journey around weight 15 00:00:49,020 --> 00:00:52,940 Sean: loss, which got you into Weight Watchers, is really quite 16 00:00:52,940 --> 00:00:55,870 Sean: interesting. Just tell us that, it's a while ago now, 17 00:00:55,870 --> 00:00:59,120 Sean: I appreciate that, many people won't know that story. 18 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:02,730 Scott: Without aging myself too much. Look, I was an overweight 19 00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:06,030 Scott: teenager. I went to my first group support meeting when 20 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:09,030 Scott: I was 13. Both my parents worked. I was a 21 00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:12,930 Scott: latchkey kid, so I'd get lunch money each day and 22 00:01:12,930 --> 00:01:15,390 Scott: I'd spend that usually at the corner store before I 23 00:01:15,390 --> 00:01:18,820 Scott: got on the train and then I'd have to borrow 24 00:01:18,850 --> 00:01:22,250 Scott: mates' lunches or borrow some money for lunch. And then 25 00:01:22,569 --> 00:01:26,100 Scott: I'd be first home, so I'd raid the pantry before 26 00:01:26,180 --> 00:01:28,000 Scott: mom and dad got home, and then I'd have a 27 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:33,240 Scott: sensible dinner. So effectively, I'd have five or six meals 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Scott: a day, rather than three. 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,580 Sean: Not unusual though, for many teenagers. 30 00:01:37,940 --> 00:01:42,410 Scott: No, it's not. And that's something that definitely drives me. 31 00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:47,380 Scott: It's not unusual. And I love food, I love a 32 00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:52,540 Scott: drink, I enjoy social occasions, and so I call myself 33 00:01:52,540 --> 00:01:56,950 Scott: a foodie. Worst thing for me is a buffet, because it's a 34 00:01:56,950 --> 00:02:01,240 Scott: little overwhelming for all the choices, but I've had to 35 00:02:01,310 --> 00:02:04,150 Scott: learn how to modify that. And I guess that's something 36 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,840 Scott: that's been a lifelong journey for me, ebbed and flowed, 37 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,830 Scott: but it stayed at a pretty steady weight now, probably 38 00:02:10,830 --> 00:02:14,029 Scott: for the last 25 years. But I had to really 39 00:02:14,030 --> 00:02:18,010 Scott: discipline myself to do that, really use our platform and a lot 40 00:02:18,430 --> 00:02:21,239 Scott: of the tools that we have, and monitor my eating 41 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,530 Scott: behaviors and exercise on a daily basis, so that I 42 00:02:24,530 --> 00:02:25,440 Scott: can keep it in check. 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,380 Sean: Okay. So as you said, it's a lifelong journey. You 44 00:02:29,380 --> 00:02:32,600 Sean: grew the Weight Watchers brand in Australia in the eighties 45 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,410 Sean: and nineties. How much have things changed since then to now? 46 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:40,760 Scott: Yeah, so my family was involved for about 20 years. 47 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,010 Scott: So my parents brought aerobics to Australia actually, in the late seventies. And then- 48 00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:45,820 Sean: You're at fault. 49 00:02:46,389 --> 00:02:50,190 Scott: Yeah. I do have some embarrassing photos of myself as 50 00:02:50,190 --> 00:02:54,660 Scott: a kid. In fact, I even performed at an NRL 51 00:02:54,660 --> 00:02:55,760 Scott: grand final of all places. 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:56,560 Sean: Oh, really? 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,790 Scott: I think I was embarrassing in the front somewhere. But 54 00:03:01,150 --> 00:03:04,169 Scott: we were involved with Weight Watchers for 20 years and my 55 00:03:04,169 --> 00:03:06,860 Scott: mother and father were heavily involved. My dad was Managing 56 00:03:06,860 --> 00:03:10,210 Scott: Director and mom was on the board, and so back 57 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:12,649 Scott: then it was very much a group support business. There wasn't 58 00:03:12,650 --> 00:03:15,630 Scott: an online business in the early stages and it was 59 00:03:15,669 --> 00:03:18,970 Scott: heavily reliant on word of mouth. And then that moved 60 00:03:18,970 --> 00:03:23,510 Scott: on into the online environment. And obviously, we were involved 61 00:03:23,510 --> 00:03:26,480 Scott: when it went public back in 2001, and it's still a 62 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,910 Scott: very strong business with a multi- channel approach. And to 63 00:03:30,910 --> 00:03:33,549 Scott: be fair, I was a global vice president of that business 64 00:03:33,550 --> 00:03:38,160 Scott: and left in 2005, had a noncompete, so I rode 65 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,420 Scott: that out and bought a football team and a surf 66 00:03:40,420 --> 00:03:44,300 Scott: business, as you do. But the last 15 years, we've 67 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:48,480 Scott: been very focused on Digital Wellness, with a view to 68 00:03:48,820 --> 00:03:52,550 Scott: really helping change people's lives, by making a positive impact 69 00:03:52,550 --> 00:03:56,300 Scott: on their health, primarily in the online environment, but now 70 00:03:56,300 --> 00:04:00,490 Scott: very much moving into patient support areas, in terms of 71 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:03,930 Scott: how we can really help people with chronic disease manage 72 00:04:03,930 --> 00:04:08,230 Scott: their weight, their hypertension, osteoarthritis, and other things in conjunction 73 00:04:08,230 --> 00:04:09,850 Scott: with doctors and health professionals. 74 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,300 Sean: Okay. Now I've been fortunate to have never been particularly 75 00:04:14,550 --> 00:04:18,060 Sean: overweight. So I haven't even delved into some of these 76 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:21,890 Sean: online resources. What are the types of things you are 77 00:04:21,890 --> 00:04:22,610 Sean: talking about? 78 00:04:23,260 --> 00:04:28,020 Scott: So the platform itself, we've compartmentalized the program, both for 79 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:32,140 Scott: Mayo Clinic diet in the US, and also CSIRO total 80 00:04:32,140 --> 00:04:35,830 Scott: wellbeing diet here in Australia. We've compartmentalized it into, effectively a 12 81 00:04:35,830 --> 00:04:39,020 Scott: week program, or a 12 week rolling program. So it 82 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:41,909 Scott: is more like a curriculum, and every week you get 83 00:04:42,260 --> 00:04:47,430 Scott: a menu plan, exercise plan, special tips, you fill in 84 00:04:47,430 --> 00:04:50,220 Scott: a pre- screener before you start, which tells us about 85 00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:53,440 Scott: your eating patterns and things that you like and dislike. 86 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,610 Scott: We put the menu plan into a weekly shopping list 87 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:58,790 Scott: for you, which you can use for the whole family 88 00:04:58,790 --> 00:05:02,000 Scott: at home, in terms of the number of serve quantities, 89 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,010 Scott: et cetera, et cetera. And then importantly, we also have 90 00:05:06,050 --> 00:05:09,040 Scott: support. So you can either, if you are just using 91 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,539 Scott: the self- directed program, we have a very active Facebook 92 00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:18,219 Scott: group with almost 50, 000 members, who are constantly encouraging each 93 00:05:18,220 --> 00:05:22,670 Scott: other, sharing recipes and the like, so there's a vibrant Facebook 94 00:05:22,670 --> 00:05:25,409 Scott: group. But then we also have health coaching. So we 95 00:05:25,410 --> 00:05:30,510 Scott: have registered dieticians and nutritionists who, if you want a 96 00:05:30,510 --> 00:05:35,130 Scott: more specialized or a more advanced approach, where you can 97 00:05:35,130 --> 00:05:39,570 Scott: actually have someone monitor your diary and things that you're 98 00:05:39,570 --> 00:05:41,310 Scott: doing, give you tips for the week ahead, then you 99 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:44,039 Scott: can also self- select the coaching service. 100 00:05:44,710 --> 00:05:46,630 Sean: Stay with me, Scott, we'll be back in a minute. 101 00:05:52,170 --> 00:05:55,310 Sean: My guest this morning is Scott Penn, founder and CEO 102 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:01,289 Sean: of Digital Wellness. You are definitely not the only online health company, yet 103 00:06:01,470 --> 00:06:05,240 Sean: you are the one that CSIRO picked, that the Mayo Clinic 104 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,220 Sean: in the US picked. What is it about your business 105 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:12,700 Sean: that attracted those guys? I suppose, what's your comparative advantage? 106 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:16,420 Scott: Yeah, I think probably, well a couple of things, firstly 107 00:06:16,420 --> 00:06:21,619 Scott: experience, category experience, and really understanding what consumers are looking 108 00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:24,870 Scott: for, and making sure that we have all the tools 109 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,470 Scott: in our toolkit that people are looking for. So that's 110 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,029 Scott: a walk up start. I guess second piece is, constant 111 00:06:32,029 --> 00:06:36,500 Scott: investment in that platform, so we not only invest in 112 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:40,400 Scott: the platform itself, effectively, we have reinvested our profits for 113 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,410 Scott: the past 15 years, in evolving the platform and making 114 00:06:43,410 --> 00:06:47,310 Scott: sure that we are on cutting edge of technology, using 115 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:51,120 Scott: AI tools and a whole range of other things. Thirdly, it's 116 00:06:51,170 --> 00:06:55,810 Scott: really about scientific research. And when we founded back in 117 00:06:55,810 --> 00:06:59,420 Scott: late 2006, we said, You know what, we have to 118 00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:03,250 Scott: make sure that we are competitive from a scientific perspective. 119 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,729 Scott: So in the very early days, we had one of the 120 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:08,560 Scott: largest cohorts in the world, I think it was about 11, 121 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,190 Scott: 000 people in a scientific research study with Newcastle University, 122 00:07:13,630 --> 00:07:17,440 Scott: and analyzing those 11,000 people, and how much weight they 123 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,540 Scott: lost over the 12 week program. And that was quite 124 00:07:20,540 --> 00:07:24,002 Scott: revolutionary at the time. And it literally was (inaudible) . 125 00:07:24,330 --> 00:07:27,380 Scott: We put the results out, it wasn't filtered, it was 126 00:07:27,380 --> 00:07:30,850 Scott: on the whole 11, 000 and it was a solid 127 00:07:30,860 --> 00:07:34,130 Scott: result. It was about 6% weight loss on average, and it 128 00:07:34,130 --> 00:07:37,850 Scott: was a really positive result. So I think that's what 129 00:07:37,850 --> 00:07:42,350 Scott: attracted CSIRO and Mayo clinic to the table, was that 130 00:07:43,310 --> 00:07:46,100 Scott: we are only as good as our interactions with our 131 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,760 Scott: customers or members. So we really focused on giving them 132 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,080 Scott: the best possible outcome. And we not afraid to publish 133 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,220 Scott: that research and put pressure on ourselves to make it 134 00:07:55,220 --> 00:07:59,160 Scott: even better. So I think that's... We are constantly reinvesting in 135 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,420 Scott: research. We do at least two or three papers a 136 00:08:02,420 --> 00:08:05,600 Scott: year with CSIRO alone, in terms of looking at our 137 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,850 Scott: platform, looking at some of the tools that we have, 138 00:08:08,220 --> 00:08:11,310 Scott: in terms of, we have diet type survey, we have 139 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,380 Scott: health scores type surveys. So we've got a range of 140 00:08:14,380 --> 00:08:18,480 Scott: different things that we've analyzed the feedback and results of. 141 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,030 Scott: So scientific research is really important to us as well. 142 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,960 Sean: Okay. People are getting heavier, no one's arguing that, and 143 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,520 Sean: most of the scientific journalists suggest people are getting heavier. 144 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,510 Sean: More people are living with obesity, so that obviously has 145 00:08:31,980 --> 00:08:37,010 Sean: impacts from everything, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, et cetera. I know 146 00:08:37,010 --> 00:08:39,429 Sean: there are some, I think there's a crowd called Novo 147 00:08:39,429 --> 00:08:42,520 Sean: Nordisk, I think, which may, I'm going to say Danish 148 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,130 Sean: crowd, who have said that they're in phase three trials 149 00:08:46,130 --> 00:08:50,770 Sean: of a tablet, basically, that helps enormously for people living 150 00:08:50,809 --> 00:08:57,240 Sean: with obesity. But generally, there's no shortcuts in losing weight, 151 00:08:57,550 --> 00:08:58,290 Sean: or is there? 152 00:08:58,809 --> 00:09:05,220 Scott: Not really. Look, we are very familiar with Novo Nordisk 153 00:09:05,530 --> 00:09:08,089 Scott: and a couple of their products. They already have a 154 00:09:08,090 --> 00:09:11,630 Scott: couple of products on the market and have a higher 155 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,920 Scott: concentrate version of that, that's in final clinical trials at 156 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,140 Scott: the moment, that will likely be released in the next 157 00:09:18,309 --> 00:09:21,240 Scott: 12 to 18 months, but that's not the sole cure. 158 00:09:21,730 --> 00:09:26,920 Scott: This is still a lifestyle intervention. The medication, and many 159 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,189 Scott: medications have side effects as well, so it's not for 160 00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:32,400 Scott: everyone, but medication will need to be prescribed with a 161 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,790 Scott: lifestyle program anyway, because the medication alone may just help 162 00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:42,700 Scott: people with some cravings, or it might... Usually it targets 163 00:09:42,780 --> 00:09:47,070 Scott: brain receptors and almost switches them off and, or tells 164 00:09:47,070 --> 00:09:49,559 Scott: your body that it's full when it's not. So that's 165 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,510 Scott: typically what a lot of the medications do, which is 166 00:09:53,510 --> 00:09:55,300 Scott: fine, but the fact is that, if you're still in 167 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:58,120 Scott: a social situation with a buffet in front of you, 168 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,689 Scott: you may then fall into old habits. So unless you 169 00:10:01,690 --> 00:10:05,329 Scott: are modifying your behavior, you really aren't going to solve 170 00:10:05,330 --> 00:10:09,910 Scott: it long term. And then with medication, often these drugs, 171 00:10:10,150 --> 00:10:12,300 Scott: people aren't able to stay on them long term, so 172 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,960 Scott: unless they're able to stay on them for the rest 173 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,500 Scott: of their life, then it's not going to have the desired result. 174 00:10:17,740 --> 00:10:21,050 Scott: So we are certainly aware of products coming down the 175 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,710 Scott: pipe, where we are mindful that, as a consumer, consumers 176 00:10:25,710 --> 00:10:30,010 Scott: want the most simple solution possible. And I think that's 177 00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:33,470 Scott: what our core focus is, certainly our product development team 178 00:10:33,470 --> 00:10:36,010 Scott: is making sure that our products are so easy to 179 00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:38,800 Scott: use that it just becomes part of your lifestyle, and 180 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,090 Scott: it becomes a little bit habitual, not dissimilar to Apple 181 00:10:42,090 --> 00:10:44,690 Scott: Watch, and closing your rings every day and things like 182 00:10:44,690 --> 00:10:48,390 Scott: that. So I think that's certainly, from a behavior change 183 00:10:48,390 --> 00:10:50,969 Scott: perspective, we're trying to make sure we use technology to 184 00:10:50,970 --> 00:10:54,530 Scott: help people change their behavior, rather than make it painful. 185 00:10:55,059 --> 00:10:57,340 Sean: Scott, I can't not ask you about the National Rugby 186 00:10:57,340 --> 00:11:00,750 Sean: League. You split your time between New York and Sydney. 187 00:11:00,809 --> 00:11:03,590 Sean: How do you manage to watch Manly Sea Eagles when 188 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:04,319 Sean: you're in New York? 189 00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:06,580 Scott: Well, the good thing is, in the digital age, we've 190 00:11:06,580 --> 00:11:11,020 Scott: got plenty of online providers. So there's a watch NRL 191 00:11:11,230 --> 00:11:14,910 Scott: company in the, well outside of Australia, there's a licensee 192 00:11:14,910 --> 00:11:17,839 Scott: I think, who manages that and shows all the games, 193 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,410 Scott: fortunately. So given the time's just change, has actually gone 194 00:11:21,410 --> 00:11:24,700 Scott: into a more fortunate time for us. So it's still 195 00:11:24,700 --> 00:11:27,010 Scott: very early in the morning, but it's better than 2: 196 00:11:27,210 --> 00:11:30,599 Scott: 00 AM. But I certainly watch all the games from 197 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,410 Scott: over there. I get back here for as many games 198 00:11:33,410 --> 00:11:35,280 Scott: as possible. But no, it works. 199 00:11:35,770 --> 00:11:38,050 Sean: What about the idea of Manly playing the Rabbitohs in 200 00:11:38,050 --> 00:11:40,329 Sean: LA? Is that still on the drawing board? 201 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:42,850 Scott: Definitely. No, that's something that we're very keen on. I've 202 00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:46,260 Scott: spoken to the NRL several times about that. Obviously we've 203 00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:50,280 Scott: got Hugh Jackman on the Sea Eagle side and we've 204 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,630 Scott: got Russell on the Rabbitohs side. So I think it 205 00:11:53,630 --> 00:11:57,630 Scott: would be just a dream for both the NRL, but also 206 00:11:57,630 --> 00:12:02,110 Scott: for American fans, to really see some of the top 207 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,410 Scott: teams going battle for battle. And I've proposed that we 208 00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:09,439 Scott: would be up for making it a regular season game, 209 00:12:09,730 --> 00:12:13,300 Scott: actually playing for points, not just a exhibition game. So 210 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,130 Scott: that's something that we're definitely up for, likely to be, 211 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,710 Scott: probably more 24 the next year, but it's certainly on 212 00:12:19,710 --> 00:12:20,209 Scott: the radar. 213 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,820 Sean: Well, as I've mentioned off- air, my children somehow have 214 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:26,530 Sean: found themselves supporting Manly, and I'm a mad Rabbitoh supporter, 215 00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:28,390 Sean: so if it happens, we're going. 216 00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:28,850 Scott: We're all going. 217 00:12:29,730 --> 00:12:32,030 Sean: Excellent. Scott, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 218 00:12:32,690 --> 00:12:33,189 Scott: Pleasure, Sean. 219 00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:36,939 Sean: That was Scott Penn, founder and CEO of Digital Wellness. 220 00:12:37,410 --> 00:12:39,949 Sean: This is the Fear & Greed daily interview. Join us every morning 221 00:12:39,950 --> 00:12:42,870 Sean: for the full episode of Fear & Greed, Australia's most popular 222 00:12:42,950 --> 00:12:45,929 Sean: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.