WEBVTT - Prince Andrew, Epstein and the emails

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven Am. We're

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<v Speaker 1>in this together. We'll play some more soon. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>Prince Andrew wrote to Jeffrey Epstein in twenty eleven, the

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<v Speaker 1>day after the photo of Andrew with Virginia Guffray hit

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<v Speaker 1>the papers. The email undercuts Andrew's claim that the two

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<v Speaker 1>had cut ties in twenty ten, and it's part of

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<v Speaker 1>a new stream of documents surfacing as US Congress releases

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<v Speaker 1>tens of thousands of pages from the Epstein files, and

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<v Speaker 1>as the revelations about Prince Andrew keep coming. He's now

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<v Speaker 1>dropped his titles and royal honors. Today reporter and author

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<v Speaker 1>of The Lasting Calm witnessing the trial of Gilain Maxwell

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<v Speaker 1>Lucia Osborne Crowley about the Prince's scandals and whether we

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<v Speaker 1>should expect more to come out about the people in

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein's orbit. It's Friday, October twenty four so, Lysia, right now,

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<v Speaker 1>US Congress is pouring over this huge stash of emails

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<v Speaker 1>related to Jeffrey Epstein. A number of those emails have

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<v Speaker 1>now been published in the British press. So to begin with,

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<v Speaker 1>can you just outline to me what's in them? What

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<v Speaker 1>they've revealed.

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<v Speaker 2>So we are seeing a number of developments at the moment, because,

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, a Congress is going through their records

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<v Speaker 2>about the investigations related to Jeffrey Epstein. Some of them

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<v Speaker 2>have been published in the British press over the weekend.

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<v Speaker 2>Those include really explosive allegations about Prince Andrew and his involvement.

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<v Speaker 2>And then at the same time we also have this

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<v Speaker 2>week the publication of Virginia Jeffrey's memoir about what she

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<v Speaker 2>went through at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein and allegedly

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<v Speaker 2>Prince Andrew. In terms of your question about the emails,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a couple of really, really really important things that

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<v Speaker 2>we've learned, particularly around Prince Andrew and Virginia Giffray. There's

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<v Speaker 2>an email which seems to show Prince Andrew asking his

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<v Speaker 2>close protection officer to investigate Virginia Giffray just after she

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<v Speaker 2>had made allegations of sexual abuse against him. That's an

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<v Speaker 2>incredibly serious thing. A close protection officer is at least

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<v Speaker 2>partly taxpayer funded. They are run by the police. The

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<v Speaker 2>other really important thing that we learned in the email

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<v Speaker 2>is that Prince Andrew has pretty clearly it seems lied

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<v Speaker 2>to the public at least twice.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just trying to understand. There's a photo inside Gelen

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<v Speaker 3>Maxwell's house. Glen herself is in the background. Why would

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<v Speaker 3>people not believe that you were there with her that night?

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<v Speaker 4>They might well wish to believe it, But the photograph

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<v Speaker 4>is taken upstairs, and I don't think I ever went

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<v Speaker 4>upstairs in Gallenne's house.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the interview, which I'm sure we all remember

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<v Speaker 2>with Emily Matelist, he used the word categorically when he

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<v Speaker 2>said that he had never met her.

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<v Speaker 3>You can say categorically that you don't recall meeting Virginia Roberts,

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<v Speaker 3>dining with her, dancing with her at tramp or going

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<v Speaker 3>on to have sex with her in a bedroom in

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<v Speaker 3>a house in Belgravia.

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<v Speaker 4>I can absolutely categorically tell you it never happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Categorically is a very strong word. And we now have

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<v Speaker 2>an email from the time where it seems that he's

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<v Speaker 2>corresponding with Jeffrey Epstein and he's saying he may have

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<v Speaker 2>met her. The email says, quote categorical denial of sexual

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<v Speaker 2>relations full stop. Possible that I met her in a

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<v Speaker 2>group with others, and possible that there is a photograph.

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<v Speaker 2>We can to assume he knew that he wrote that

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<v Speaker 2>email in twenty eleven saying he may have met her,

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<v Speaker 2>and with that knowledge, he told the public and Emily

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<v Speaker 2>Makee List categorically that he'd never met her.

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<v Speaker 1>And another thing that he also said in that interview

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<v Speaker 1>was that he had ended the friendship with Epstein in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty ten, but this email would suggest otherwise exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is the second lie, might said.

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<v Speaker 4>Look, because of what has happened, I don't think it

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<v Speaker 4>is appropriate that we should remain in contact, and by

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<v Speaker 4>mutual agreement, during that walk in the park, we decided

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<v Speaker 4>that we would part company and I left. I think

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<v Speaker 4>it was the next day, and to this day I

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<v Speaker 4>never had any contact with him from that day forward.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an email from the end of February twenty eleven

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<v Speaker 2>which shows them in very close contact and says, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>let's play together soon and stay in close touch. So

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<v Speaker 2>again it's a lie. That email makes clear that there

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<v Speaker 2>were no intentions of cutting off contact. He says, let's

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<v Speaker 2>keep in close touch. Another huge revelation over the past

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<v Speaker 2>few days is that there is another victim of Jeffrey Epstein,

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<v Speaker 2>who he also introduced to Prince Andrew. So the mail

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<v Speaker 2>on Sunday chose not to name this victim. This again

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<v Speaker 2>comes from this cash of emails that we are seeing

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<v Speaker 2>coming out of Congress. There's an email sent on August eleventh,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty ten. Jeffrey Epstein wrote, I have a friend who

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<v Speaker 2>I think you might enjoy having dinner with. She will

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<v Speaker 2>be in London twenty to twenty four. And then Prince

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<v Speaker 2>Andrew responds, of course I'm in Geneva until the morning

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<v Speaker 2>of the twenty second, but would be delighted to her.

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<v Speaker 2>So it seems incontrovertible that that is Epstein introducing someone

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<v Speaker 2>to Prince Andrew for some reason. There's obviously nothing explicit

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<v Speaker 2>in there about what the reason is, but it seems

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<v Speaker 2>that the male on Sunday is saying that they know

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<v Speaker 2>her to be a victim of sexual abuse at the

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<v Speaker 2>hands of Epstein.

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<v Speaker 1>And there have already been significant consequences for Prince Andrew.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about what's happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so he has quote unquote voluntarily given up some

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<v Speaker 2>of his titles, most importantly his dukedom. A lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people kind of say, oh, this is only symbolic, but

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<v Speaker 2>symbols actually really do matter in these kinds of stories,

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<v Speaker 2>because Buckingham Palace is not going to take decisions like

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<v Speaker 2>this lightly. They have been trying to avoid dealing with

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<v Speaker 2>this scandal for a long time. So most importantly, the

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<v Speaker 2>police over here, the MET, have said that they are

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<v Speaker 2>actively investigating this allegation that he asked his personal protection

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<v Speaker 2>officer to investigate Virginia Giffrey. That consequence, to me, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is the most significant because they haven't actually brought

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<v Speaker 2>a charge yet. But it's quite surprising for the MET

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<v Speaker 2>to even talk about bringing a criminal charge against a

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<v Speaker 2>member of the royal family. You know. At first I thought, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe they'll be aiming the charge at the protection officer

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<v Speaker 2>himself for herself, but it seems pretty clear that they

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<v Speaker 2>are actually talking about maybe bringing a criminal charge against

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<v Speaker 2>a member of the royal family, and that is a

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<v Speaker 2>really significant step for a police force that is historically

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<v Speaker 2>extremely conservative.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up what's been revealed in Virginia Jeffrey's new memoir

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<v Speaker 1>and Lutia, all of this is unfolding at the same

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<v Speaker 1>time as Virginia Geoffrey's memoir It's called Nobody's Girl, is

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<v Speaker 1>being released. So tell me a bit about the book

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<v Speaker 1>and what's in it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really so heartbreaking. And by that I mean both

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<v Speaker 2>the book is heartbreaking and it's heartbreaking that we're reading

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<v Speaker 2>it now without her here, and it is incredibly honest.

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<v Speaker 2>It's raw. She says a number of times in the

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<v Speaker 2>book like look, I know this is really hard to hear.

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<v Speaker 2>Please stay with me, and then at one point she says,

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<v Speaker 2>you probably need a breather. I do too, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>after she's describing these horrific alleged acts of sexual abuse.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so important for us to have that in her voice.

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<v Speaker 2>There are a number of reasons it's important to have

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<v Speaker 2>it in her voice. The first is this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>still very widely held belief that a significant number of

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<v Speaker 2>women lie about right. It alludes to me why so

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<v Speaker 2>many people believe these rape myths at all. However, it's

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<v Speaker 2>much easier to believe those myths when they are a

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<v Speaker 2>headline just you know, Virginia Gfrey accuses Prince Andrew of

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<v Speaker 2>sexual abuse without very much detail. But it is very

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<v Speaker 2>different when we have the whole story in her voice,

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<v Speaker 2>with that detail. And the second thing is that survivor

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<v Speaker 2>testimony in detail. That's really important because those accused of

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<v Speaker 2>these kinds of offenses. They know how important it is

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<v Speaker 2>to hear from survivors. They really really rely on out

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<v Speaker 2>of court settlements because what they get from that is

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<v Speaker 2>they get insurance that the survivor will not be able

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<v Speaker 2>to tell their story. And that's what Prince Andrew got

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty two, and he and the powers paid a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of money for that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that. So Virginia

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<v Speaker 1>Defray took Prince Andrew to court a few years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>So after reading her memoir, how should we understand that

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<v Speaker 1>decision to sue? What was it that she was asking

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<v Speaker 1>the court to recognize?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I mean these passages are really interesting because

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<v Speaker 2>what she got him to do was right, a public

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<v Speaker 2>recognition of the harm that has been caused to her

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<v Speaker 2>by Jeffrey Epstein and his associates. Now that is not

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<v Speaker 2>him saying that he did it. You know, his position

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<v Speaker 2>is still that he denies allegations of sexual abuse. But

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<v Speaker 2>that document, along with the settlement, we don't see that

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<v Speaker 2>in the legal world very often, and so to get

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<v Speaker 2>a kind of statement like that was really really important,

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<v Speaker 2>and it seems from the book was really really important

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<v Speaker 2>to her because a lot of people and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of headlines understood that settlement to be some sort of

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<v Speaker 2>retraction from her. But one thing that we really need

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<v Speaker 2>to take away from this book is that she is

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<v Speaker 2>in no sense retracting any part of this allegation. She

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<v Speaker 2>is saying this happened, and in fact, you know, here

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<v Speaker 2>is everything I remember about.

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<v Speaker 1>It, and Lucia right now in the US Congress is

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<v Speaker 1>going through all of these documents, thousands of them, emails,

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<v Speaker 1>call lists, and they're being ready for public release. So

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<v Speaker 1>should we expect more revelations to come to light about

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein and about other people who were in his orbit.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, we will see more and more and more

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<v Speaker 2>headlines which will represent a build up of evidence about Jeffrey,

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<v Speaker 2>potentially more about Prince Andrew, potentially more about other associates

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<v Speaker 2>as part of this sex trafficking ring. That really will

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<v Speaker 2>change the course of this story. I think those documents

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<v Speaker 2>have existed for a very long time, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there is obviously a lot in there that people are

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<v Speaker 2>trying to hide. And so Virginia's memoir says that she

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to name other people, other clients of Epstein's, and

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<v Speaker 2>she wasn't able to because they were too powerful, And

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<v Speaker 2>that exact thing happened to me. You know, I have

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<v Speaker 2>a few names that I wanted to publish in my book,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was told I couldn't. And maybe those names

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<v Speaker 2>are the same as Virginia's, maybe they're not. But what

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like we are finally going to get is

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of different documents that together paint a much

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<v Speaker 2>more accurate picture of how serious this was, how widespread

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<v Speaker 2>this was, and how many victims were involved.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there is the question of whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>this ultimately leads to those victims getting justice because there

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<v Speaker 1>are a lot of victims. There are a lot of women.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the Justice Department says there's more than a thousand.

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<v Speaker 1>So do you think that as this happens, we are

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<v Speaker 1>getting closer to any kind of justice for them?

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<v Speaker 2>I really hope.

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<v Speaker 3>So.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think it's really hard because there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of things going on here in terms of justice

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<v Speaker 2>in the criminal sense. The only way for that to

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<v Speaker 2>happen is for the public authorities, the police or the FBI,

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<v Speaker 2>to bring charges. I certainly think there is enough evidence

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<v Speaker 2>to bring charges against people who have not been charged,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, at the moment, Gilaine Maxwell is in

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<v Speaker 2>prison for sex trafficking to no one. But of course

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<v Speaker 2>we are at a very particular time in US politics.

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<v Speaker 2>We're seeing Trump firing federal employees who are involved in

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<v Speaker 2>Agile Nxwell trial, for example, So politically this government's justice department,

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<v Speaker 2>it's hard to say with any confidence that they would

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<v Speaker 2>have the political will to bring new charges. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I really hope I'm wrong about that. There will be

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<v Speaker 2>a point at which, if there is enough evidence out there,

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<v Speaker 2>there will be so much pressure on them that they

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<v Speaker 2>will bring charges. And the end of the caveat is

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<v Speaker 2>that it's a shame that, for example, the FBI is

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<v Speaker 2>the main agency that would be investigating federal elements of

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<v Speaker 2>these crimes. And a lot of the survivors that I

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<v Speaker 2>talked to often are involved in a lawsuit against the

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<v Speaker 2>FBI for not investigating Jeffrey Epstein even though the FBI

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<v Speaker 2>were told that he was doing this in nineteen ninety five.

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<v Speaker 2>So from a survivor's perspective, it's very hard to trust

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<v Speaker 2>the FBI to actually investigate this. But all credit to

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<v Speaker 2>them for taking that huge step of suing the FBI,

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<v Speaker 2>because hopefully that will mean there's now more pressure on

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<v Speaker 2>them to not do the same thing again.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's going to be really interesting to see how

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<v Speaker 1>all of this plays out. Lutia, thank you so.

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<v Speaker 3>Much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, the National's Deputy leader, Kevin

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<v Speaker 1>Hogan says the party has major reservations with the federal

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<v Speaker 1>government's overhaul of environment laws. It comes as the Greens

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<v Speaker 1>have doubled down on their criticism of the legislation, saying

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<v Speaker 1>Labour's reforms weaken environmental protections, leaving Labor without an obvious

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<v Speaker 1>partner to pass the laws through the Senate. The Greens

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<v Speaker 1>and environment and business groups have received extracts of the

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<v Speaker 1>new legislation ahead of its introduction into Federal Parliament in

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<v Speaker 1>the upcoming sitting fortnite and US President Donald Trump has

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<v Speaker 1>announced sanctions targeting rushes to largest energy companies in a

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<v Speaker 1>bid to pressure Vladmir Putin to agree to a peace

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<v Speaker 1>still in Ukraine. Trump has also defended his decision not

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<v Speaker 1>to send Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine, stating it would take

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<v Speaker 1>too long to train Ukraine's military in how to use them.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening,