1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Twenty three year old Rochelle Charles was brutally murdered. Her 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: killer has never been caught. Her sister Christy, has turned 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: to a team of investigators to finally get justice. Innocent 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: people too afraid to speak out for decades are breaking 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: their silence for Rochelle. Join cold case expert Damien Luhn 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: and me Ashley hans It for our unmissible podcast series, 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: Deer Rochelle. Visit Deroshelle dot com dot au. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: Before we start the show, you've just heard a trailer 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: for the new crime podcast from True Crime Australia. Dear Rochelle, 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: and at the end of this show, we'll play you 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: the first teaser episode of that series. They would hang 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: around there and they would play pool. They'd drink beer, 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: smoke cigarettes, take drugs, and generally be the sort of 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: people at the local police would keep an eye on 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: because they could easily get into trouble. What nobody realized 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: was just how much trouble they can could get into. 17 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 2: Because what no one realized then until it was far 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: too late, was their propensity for these two to do 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: a most remarkably evil and satanic thing. I'm Andrew Rule's 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: Life and Crimes One of the worst cases, worst murders 21 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: that I can recall when I was at school was 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: the terrible, terrible case of Rosen Naughty in Western Victoria. 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: Now Rosen Naughty was a fifteen year old girl. She 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: lived with her mother, who was divorced, in Hamilton, which 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: is often called the wool capital of Australia, probably if 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: not the wall capital of the world. And Hamilton is 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: a prosperous regional city. That's prosperous because it's in the 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: middle of the Western District, which is full of farms 29 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: and successful area in every way. Roslin's father was Ivan Naughty, 30 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: who was a shearer. Her mother's father, that is, Roslin's granddad, 31 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 2: was a farmer called Roderick McCallum. So these people, you know, 32 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: local rural family. After Roslin's parents split up, she and 33 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: her mum lived with granddad on his farm just outside 34 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: Hamilton at a place called Wallace Dale. And Granddad Roderick McCallum, 35 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: he milked cows. He was a dairy farmer. And after 36 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: a few years of that they moved together into the 37 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: town of Hamilton, and so by the time the nineteen 38 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: seventies rolled in, they were all living in Hamilton, his 39 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: granddad and his daughter who was forty two, and Roslin 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: who was fifteen, and their dogs. They were very keen 41 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: on dogs. They used to show various breeds, small breeds. 42 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: I think they had corgi'es and they had maybe Pomeranians 43 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 2: and Pekinese that sort of thing. In fact, they had 44 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: six dogs, and one of them was Roslin's pet Corgie, 45 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: a little dog called Jody, a male dog called Jodi. 46 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: And Roslin had gone to school locally at Hamilton, and 47 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: she'd initially been at the mary Noll College, which I 48 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: think is a Catholic college there, and then she was 49 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: about to move and start school when this happened. She 50 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: was about to start school at the local high school. 51 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: She was switching schools and so there she's fifteen. She's 52 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: presumably going into year ten. I would have said what 53 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: we used to call form four, I would think. And 54 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: she's quite a small girl for her age. She's quite lean, 55 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: quite small, so the jockey build. I don't think she 56 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: was brilliant at school, but she was diligent and she 57 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: used to do a lot of needlework and make her 58 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: own clothes and all that sort of stuff, and the 59 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: previous year of nineteen seventy, she had been judged Miss 60 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: Junior Showgirl at one of the local shows, I think 61 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: Coleraine or Castleton, one of the locals. She was a 62 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: junior show girl, and there are photos of that event, 63 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: which is why we often see that photograph because it's 64 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 2: one of the very few of Rosen Nolty. And no 65 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: one would have ever heard of her outside Hamilton except 66 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: that she became the victim of this awful, awful crime. 67 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: And what happened was there were two young men in Hamilton. 68 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: They were teenagers really, one was nineteen and one was eighteen. 69 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: They were teenagers, but teenagers at a time when people 70 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 2: left school young and worked at a relatively young age. 71 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: So some, especially boys might leave school at fourteen or 72 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: fifteen and take on jobs apprentices or just laboring jobs, 73 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. And the older one of 74 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: this pair, older by a few months, was Christopher Lowry, 75 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 2: Christopher Russell Lowry. He was the shorter of the pair. 76 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: He was broad shouldered, strong and volatile. He was known 77 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: around the town as a very bad tempered, nasty, bad egg, 78 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: and he was an apprentice bricklayer. He'd almost finished his apprenticeship, 79 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: he worked for his father, Bill Lowry, who was a 80 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: builder around the place, a brickie and builder, and he 81 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: was apprenticed to his own father, and they used to 82 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: work around town and I think were regarded as pretty 83 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: good brick layers. Lowry had always had a reputation. And 84 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: I know this because I talked to a former policeman 85 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: who grew up down there at that time. He was 86 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: a little younger than the bad guys in this story. 87 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 2: He was more like Rosalind's age, and he recalls seeing 88 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: Lowry and he said he was just bad news. He 89 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: was volatile, he was intimidating, he was violent, and he said, 90 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: I remember once something upset him in a basketball game, 91 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: and he just grabbed the ball and started swearing at 92 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: the umpire or whatever, and he kicked the ball hard 93 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: into the ceiling of the stadium, just sort of in protest. 94 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: It was sort of the behavior that he exhibited. Now 95 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: that in itself doesn't matter much. It's just a kid 96 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: kicking a basketball into the roof, but it indicated his 97 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: willingness to go outside the bounds of normal behavior. And 98 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 2: there was another occasion, to give one example of probably 99 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 2: many things that he did as he was growing up. 100 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: There was some sort of dance or rock concert in 101 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: Hamilton and a band from Horsham was playing in Hamilton, 102 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: and there was a disagreement of some nature with the 103 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: band from Horsham and Christopher Lowry, who's basically sixteen years 104 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: old seventeen years old at this stage, he pulled a 105 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: knife on one of the band members. And pulling a 106 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: knife in those days in regional Victoria was regarded as 107 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: an extremely bad thing to do. It was an era 108 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: when people did not carry knives, and only bad people 109 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: carried knives, and to actually pull a knife on someone 110 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: in an argument at a function like that stood out 111 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: as the act of somebody really bad and headed for 112 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: serious trouble, which this guy was. He was trouble now 113 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: he was free with another guy called Charles King. Larry 114 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: was a domineering sort of character. He had the sort 115 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: of glittering eyes. He was a ball of energy. He 116 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: was sort of like a bit bull terrier. The other 117 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: Charles King was a taller fellow, a bit milder mannered. 118 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: He was intelligent, relatively intelligent. He had left Hamilton briefly 119 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: to go to Melbourne, and he'd gone to Melbourne, I 120 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: don't know, maybe eighteen months two years earlier, to learn 121 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: to be a PMG linesman telephone linesman, PMG being the 122 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: old fashioned name. It was the Postmaster General's Department, which 123 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: was the forerunner of Telstra, and this guy had gone 124 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 2: to Melbourne to learn to be a linesman at the 125 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: linesman school in Melbourne and to do the equivalent I 126 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 2: guess of a sort of a trainee ship or a 127 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: cadet ship. But when he got to Melbourne, young Charles 128 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: King from Hamilton didn't go that well. He I think 129 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: probably didn't turn up to work enough, he didn't study 130 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 2: hard enough, he didn't like Melbourne much, and he got 131 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: involved in two things. He got involved in drugs and 132 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: he got involved in bad company. In fact, he started 133 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: to knock around with the Hell's Angels nomads, which in 134 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: that era the Angels were one of the very early 135 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: organized motorcycle gangs, and I suspect were not as big 136 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: a criminal fraternity as they are now that the Hell's 137 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: Angels of the late sixties. They were bad lads, wearing 138 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: leather jackets and behaving badly, but I don't think they 139 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: were an arm of organized crime all together. At that 140 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 2: stage they soon would be when they got the recipe 141 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: for how to make empediments from their brothers in San Francisco. 142 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: But that's another story. So our man Charles comes back 143 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: to Hamilton a bit of a failure. He hasn't got 144 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: the good job at the PMG. He's sort of blotted 145 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: his copybook a bit in Melbourne, and he's probably using 146 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: drugs including LSD and hallucinogenic drugs and smoking dope and 147 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: drinking too much beer and bourbon or whatever. And he 148 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: pells up with the dangerous young fellow, Christopher Lowry, and 149 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: King actually goes to work for his grandparents' shop. King's 150 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: occupation is given at the time of his arrest this 151 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: year as a shop assistant, and that was because his 152 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: grandparents did have a store in town and he would 153 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: go and help their working in the shop. He's basically 154 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 2: filling in time and he's hanging around with Chris Lowry, 155 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 2: which is not a good thing. Chris Lowry had a 156 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: blue panel van which I think his father had bought 157 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: for the brick laying business, but Larry got to drive 158 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: it around and Chris Lowry, at the age of nineteen, 159 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: has a seventeen year old wife who's heavily pregnant. She's 160 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 2: an English girl, a migrant family that had landed in town. 161 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: And he clearly got Hazel the migrant girl pregnant fairly quickly, 162 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: and was obliged to marry her. And he was living, 163 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 2: i think, in a flat in Hamilton, and they had 164 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: put their name down to get a house and commission 165 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: house in a new suburb of Hamilton. And all that 166 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: was happening in the background, but none of that stopped 167 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: Chris Lowry from hanging around the main street in his 168 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: blue panel van with his mate, Charles King. And they 169 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: would hang around there and they would watch the girls 170 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 2: walk past, they'd play pool, they'd drink beer, smoke cigarettes, 171 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: take drugs, and generally be the sort of people at 172 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: the local police would keep an eye on because they 173 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: could easily get into trouble. What nobody realized was just 174 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: how much trouble they could get into, because what no 175 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: one realized then until it was far too late, was 176 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: their propensity for these two to sort of egg each 177 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 2: other on, or for one to follow the other to 178 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: do a most remarkably evil and satanic thing. One month 179 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 2: before the murder that we're talking about, back in around 180 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 2: the end of nineteen seventy, around the thirty first of 181 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: December nineteen seventy, these two guys, King and Lowry had 182 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: gone to a motorcycle race meeting over at Mount Gambia. 183 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: I think it was just over the South Australian border, 184 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: which is not that far from Hamilton, And they'd been 185 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: at these motorcycle races and they were talking and as 186 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: they later told police, that was when one first said 187 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 2: to the other, and I believe it would be Lowry 188 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: saying it to King. Larry said to King, I wonder 189 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: what it'd be like to kill a chick, to kill 190 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: a girl who used the word chick, as a lot 191 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: of people did in those days. And they had a 192 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: discussion about you know, what it would feel like and 193 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: would it be good? And you know, da da da 194 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: da da. Now King would later claim that he thought 195 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: Larry was just mucking around, showing off whatever, and he 196 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 2: says he didn't take much notice of it, which may 197 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 2: or may not be true, but the fact is, no 198 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: matter what he thought it was or wasn't, when they 199 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: were watching the motorcycle races. One month later, they're sitting 200 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: in the blue panel van in Hamilton's main street, eight 201 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: o'clock on a Sunday night on the Australia Day weekend. 202 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: So it's a long weekend, so Sunday night is not 203 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: a school night. Sunday night is the middle of a 204 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: long weekend, and everybody's sort of at a bit of 205 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: a loose end. It's a country town. There's not much happening. 206 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: There's a pool room, there's a cafe. You know, there's 207 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: no pubs open on a Sunday. If the pubs have 208 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: made open, this might never have happened. There's a thought. 209 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: And they're sitting there and Lowry brings up this thing 210 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: about killing a chick again with his mate King, and 211 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: they discuss it in some manner or another. Anyway, a 212 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: girl walks down the street. Now, this is an eighteen 213 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: year old girl that they know. Her name is Cavenana 214 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: like Kevin with an a cavena Butterworth. She's eighteen and 215 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: she's well known to these pair they know probably at 216 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: that age they've all gone to school together or something 217 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: like that. And they talk to her and Larry says 218 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: something suggestive like what's it worth to drive your home? 219 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: Sort of a sexually suggestive comment, and she says nothing 220 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: and sort of takes it as a joke and laughs. 221 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: But she does step in the car with them. And 222 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if they took her for a drive 223 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: or didn't, but anyway, she stepped in the car with them, 224 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: and interestingly, Lowry punched her on the shoulder and kicked her. 225 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 2: And she later told Plice she interpreted that sort of 226 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: horseplay and she punched him back or something like that, 227 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: And she didn't make a lot of it until later 228 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: when she was interviewed by the police, when there was 229 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 2: a darker complexion on all this, and she got out 230 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: of the car and away she went. And that's the 231 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: end of that. But those two are still sitting in 232 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: their pedel van. It's still Sunday night, just after eight 233 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: o'clock at night, so the son has set and what 234 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: happens is, by chance, Rosen Noughty has gone for a walk. 235 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: She's got her little dog, Jody, the corgy, and she's 236 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: going to give the dog a walk. Now, dogs have 237 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: to be walked. They have to be walked every day, 238 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: and some people might walk them twice a day, some 239 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: walked them three times a day. But it's clear looking 240 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: back on that a fifteen year old girl on a 241 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: Sunday night in the middle of our long weekend. She's 242 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: walking down the main street with her dog. She wants 243 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: to go down the main street and have a look 244 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: who's around, you know, see who's cruising around whatever. It's 245 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: a teenage thing to do. So she walks down the 246 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: street with a dog and wearing her tight slacks and 247 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: a purple top and a leather choker around her neck 248 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: that she made for herself, and her boots. She had 249 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: something rather boots on that were sort of fashionable. And 250 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: she's down there walking the dog, and she walks down 251 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: one way and then back up the other, and she 252 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: sees our heroes in the blue panel pan and they've 253 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: just finished talking to the other one, Kevina, and they 254 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: see Roslind turn up and one says the other, oh, 255 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: she's a chance. Now, this is apropos their plan to 256 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: kill a chick. She'd be a chance, Rosalind's a chance. 257 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: They knew her name, they know it, right, They know it. 258 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: King's little brother Stephen, who was thirteen or something. He 259 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: knew Rosin. Really well, they all know each other. It's 260 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: not that big a town. And oh, you know where 261 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: you're going, what are you doing? Blah blah blah. Next thing, 262 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: she gets in the car with them, do you want 263 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: to come for a spin? Whatever? And they drive off 264 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 2: with Roslin and her dog Jodi, and Roslyn is not 265 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: seen alive again. She doesn't get home that night. Her mother, June, 266 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 2: is frantic. She knows that when Rossen hasn't come back 267 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: home by nine thirty or ten or ten thirty, that 268 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: it's not good, and she's getting more and more frantic. 269 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: She rings the police. She stays awake all night and 270 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: next morning the police start mounting a search. Now they 271 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 2: don't really know where to look. All they know is 272 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: the teenage girls disappeared, and police in those days took 273 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 2: the view often and you can't blame them in some 274 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: ways that teenagers often go missing for a while, they 275 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 2: go off with a boy or a girl and they 276 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: stay the night somewhere, or they hitchhike somewhere or whatever. 277 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: It's not always going to be a sinister outcome. And 278 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: so the police do start a search, but they don't 279 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 2: really know what they're looking for or where. They haven't 280 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: got a focus yet, but they do know that Rosn's 281 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: mother is very concerned and says it's totally out of character. 282 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: So they're looking and they're talking, and they talk to 283 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: other young people, teenagers, and they're not really getting far. 284 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 2: And on the Tuesday, something turns up. What turns up 285 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: is the little corgy dog. He's found wandering along a 286 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: little narrow country road, a track really that leads down 287 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 2: onto the main Hamilton Port Ferry Road. And this little 288 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: track that's got trees and all the rest of it, 289 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 2: it leads down from what they call the Mountain Apier Bush. 290 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 2: It's a bush reserve. Mountain Apier is not really a mountain, 291 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: it's more just a bit of a hill and it's scrubby. 292 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 2: It's got trees. It might be, you know, a couple 293 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: hundred acres of trees or something in the scrub and 294 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: it was a bush reserve about say ten twelve k's 295 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 2: out of Hamilton that was regarded by young people are 296 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,479 Speaker 2: somewhere to go parking. People would go out there and 297 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: shoot up tin cans with guns all that sort of stuff. 298 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: You know, they dump old cars there whatever, that sort 299 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: of place, because there's the cover of trees and it's 300 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 2: out of town. And the little dog is found in 301 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: this track that leads between the main road and this bushland, 302 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 2: and it's found by an old farmer, an old war 303 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: veteranaturally an old grazier, and he either rings a place 304 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: or takes the dog in because he must have heard something. 305 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 2: And the police get the little dog and they take 306 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: it round to June Naughty, and that's when she really 307 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: knows that something bad has happened, because she knows that 308 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: Roslin wouldn't leave the dog. If the dog is split 309 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 2: up from Roslin, it's very bad. That's when June knows. 310 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: That's when she really fears the worst. Before that, she's 311 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 2: probably hoping they've hitched ike somewhere or something, but now 312 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: she knows it's bad. The police agree with June Noughty. 313 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: They now know that that area near Mountain Apier is 314 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: probably the place to look for Roslin. And an interesting 315 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 2: thing happens. There's a policewoman, a policewoman called Overend is 316 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: a surname, and she lived in the same street as 317 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: the King family, and she was quite friendly with the Kings. 318 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: The Kings were sort of respectable people. I think missed 319 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: the King. Clive King was a train driver, and they 320 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 2: were well liked and respected people, and the policewoman knew them, 321 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: and she went around to the Kings and she's chatting 322 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: to Charles King as the eighteen year old, and said, oh, Charlie, 323 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: this girl that's gone missing, Rosalind. She got any sort 324 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 2: of regular boyfriends or special boyfriends or something that she 325 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: might have bolted with or anything like that. And he says, oh, look, 326 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 2: I don't really know that well, but I have to 327 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 2: say she was okay when we dropped her back outside 328 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: the Commercial Hotel. We gave her a ride down the 329 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: street from so many blocks back to the commercial Hotel 330 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: and dropped her at the commercial corner, which was her street, 331 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: and she could walk home from there. Darted on Sunday night. 332 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: She was okay then, And this came as some news 333 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: to the police because the police had been told that 334 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: Roslin had got into a green and white e H 335 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: Holden and gone for a driving that which she might 336 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: have who knows, But it was the first time they 337 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: knew about it. Getting in the blue panel van with 338 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: Lowry and King. Was when Charlie King brought it up himself, 339 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: obviously trying to sort of act casual and all this. 340 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: So the police suddenly thinking Lowry and King and the 341 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: blue panel van are very interesting. They've got the little 342 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: dog from the old farmer and on the Wednesday morning 343 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 2: they must have got the dog. On the Tuesday night, 344 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: I think, or Tuesday afternoon. Wednesday morning, they go out 345 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: to Mountain Apier Bushland with the dog. They take the 346 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: dog with them, which was smart, and the search starts 347 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: there and the little dog leads them to Roslyn's body. 348 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: And this was the most shocking thing that any of 349 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: those people had ever seen, and probably the most shocking 350 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: thing any of them ever saw. Even coppers that worked 351 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: for thirty or forty years never saw anything probably as 352 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: grueling and as awful as what they saw, because what 353 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: they saw was fifteen year old girl's body. It's battered, 354 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 2: it's bruised, it's broken, she's got broken arms, she's got 355 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: burn marks I think from cigarettes. She's naked apart from 356 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: a pair of socks. Her bra has been knotted around 357 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: her neck. But that's not the worst of it. And 358 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: she's died from strangulation because whoever tortured her like that, 359 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: and a dragged along over rocks, possibly dragged using a car. 360 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: Who knows whoever did it, had tied her up hog 361 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 2: tied her with a piece of electrical flex with a 362 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: slip knot around her neck, and they passed the end 363 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: of the slip knot back behind her and tied it 364 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: to her feet. So she was trussed up backwards, hog tied, 365 00:23:53,800 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: as the description is, in such a way, a calculated way, planned, premeditated, 366 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 2: so that when she struggled to get loose from this 367 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: awful posture of being tied backwards, that it would choke her. 368 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: And so she was left to die choking. After being bashed, kicked, dragged, 369 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: had cigarettes burnt, the whole thing, she was left to 370 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 2: die by choking herself to death. It was the most 371 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: horrible scene that those people had ever seen, and the 372 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: most horrible thing I think that the Australian public had 373 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: heard in the post war civilian world. These awful things 374 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 2: happened in wartime, of course, and everybody knew that, you know, 375 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: terrible things had happened in the war with the Japanese 376 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 2: and the Germans and the whole thing. But this was 377 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: in provincial Victoria, in a tidy, clean, nice town where 378 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: everybody should be nice and kind, and you know, not 379 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: anything worse than drink too much beer. On a Saturday 380 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: night or something like that, and this had happened. It 381 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: shocked Victoria. I remember this clearly. I was probably thirteen, 382 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 2: and it shocked Australia. Really, it was a terrible, terrible crime, 383 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 2: and Hamilton was in total shock and to some extent denial. 384 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: I suppose the first instinct was it must be somebody 385 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 2: from outside, you know, bad guys from somewhere else have 386 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: done this, who came to town. Which strangers have been 387 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: in town and a copple's a ken on, you know, 388 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 2: looking where their bikies that have come to town and done 389 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: this or whatever. But the fact that Larry and King 390 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 2: and their Panelman have been mentioned in relation to Roslyn 391 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 2: by King gives them a bit of a head start. 392 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: So they go and see Larry and King separately and together, 393 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 2: and they interviewed them a couple of times. And Larry 394 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: and King story, which they obviously colluded, was, oh we 395 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: saw yeah, we saw Caverna and then we saw Rosalind 396 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: and we dropped rosn off outside the commercial hotel and 397 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: then we picked up a hitchhiker. We picked up a 398 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: hitchhike and drove to Coleraine with the hitchhike and dropped 399 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 2: the hitchhiker off, which seemed a bit of a stretch. 400 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: Why would you do that? And the main advantage of 401 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: that story if it was believed, which it wasn't. The 402 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 2: main advantage of that story it gets them out of 403 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 2: town at the relevant time, and it would explain why 404 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: they're blue panel van is out on the road. If 405 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: it's seen out on the highway somewhere, that would explain it. 406 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 2: So they stick to this Coleraine hitchhiker story. I don't 407 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: know that the police are totally believing them. I think 408 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: Lowry's reputational persona preceded him. There was something about him 409 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: that was in QR right. And the police are starting 410 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 2: to think that these two guys know what happened to Rosslyn, 411 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 2: and they lean on these guys and lean on those guys. 412 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: They stick to the hitchhiker story, but they start to 413 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 2: alter a bit under pressure. Homicide squad turns up the experts. 414 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: In fact, Victoria police took this really seriously. An Assistant 415 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 2: commissioner came from Melbourne with the homicide squad to work 416 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: on this, and one of their best fingerprint experts turned up. 417 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: A senior Constable Kelvin Glair. Kel Glair was a fingerprint 418 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: man in the Fingerprint Division Forensic and he, of course 419 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: later within sixteen or eighteen years or so, became chief Commissioner. 420 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: But he was a young man on a mission and 421 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: very good at what he did and what he did 422 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: on that trip down he went out to the crime 423 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: scene and he very carefully picked up things that the 424 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: and including a fresh beer can, a new one, and 425 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 2: he fingerprinted it and he found a perfect middle fingerprint 426 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: on the can and he matched that to the middle 427 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: finger of Christopher Russell Lowry, and so the police had 428 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: cast iron smoking gun evidence that put Lowry at the 429 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 2: crime scene. Now, once they had that, thank you, kell Glare. 430 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: Once they had that, they had a big stick to 431 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 2: work on these guys and say, well you were there. 432 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: What happened? Now by the Saturday with the homicide squad 433 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: working on them, the homicide squad splits these two guys up, 434 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: classic thing, split them up different rooms, different coppers, and 435 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: they turned them against each other and they say, listen, 436 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: your mate's in there telling our colleague how you did it, 437 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: and you're going to cop it all and you're going 438 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: to swing for this son if you don't tell us 439 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: what you think happened, tell us your side the story. 440 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: And so both of them are constructing stories that make 441 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: it bad for the other guy. It's funny about crooks 442 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: the good mates until this sort of stuff happens, and 443 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: then they just point the finger at the other guy. 444 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: So the police did the classic divide and rule. They 445 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 2: both come up with stories implicating the other one. By 446 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: and large. By the time it got to court and 447 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: they had a chance to sort of thrash out these 448 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: storylines with their expert defense counsel, they'd come up with 449 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 2: a scenario each of them. Charles King said that he 450 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: was hallucinating from taking LSD and he thought the trees 451 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: were moving and he was talking to animals and while 452 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: he was out of it in this days, wicked Lowry 453 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: was killing Rosen Nalty, which may well be true. And 454 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: the other bloak Lowry, who's the tough guy. He said, Oh, no, 455 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: I was scared of Charlie King. He's frightening, especially when 456 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: he's on the drug side. Dad, I was very scared 457 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: of him, and I was scared to kill me. So 458 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: I was afraid from my life. And so they each 459 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: blamed the other they're charged with murder. There's an inquest, 460 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: preliminary hearings, committal hearing. I think down that way it 461 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: was held down might have been held in warnable one 462 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: of them. And I know that the defense counsel from 463 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: Melbourne went down for each of them, and they couldn't 464 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: get anywhere to stay. No local place would give their 465 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: defense counsel anywhere to sleep, no hotel, no motel, No 466 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: one would even talk to the defense council of lawyers, 467 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 2: and people spat on the lawyers in the streets. There 468 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: was so much feeling about it, bad feeling that the 469 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: lawyers were made totally unwelcome. Wasn't their fault, but anyway, 470 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 2: that's the way it goes, totally unwelcome down there. Naturally, 471 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: the inquest finds that, you know, they killed her, and 472 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: naturally they are charged with the murderer and they appear 473 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: at the Supreme Court sitting in Ballarat. The first jury 474 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: is impaneled. This is getting late in the year of 475 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one. First jury is impaneled and early in 476 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 2: the piece the jury is shown photographs from the crime scene, 477 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 2: photographs of Rosslyn's body. This has such a terrible effect 478 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: on one jura. One juror had a physical and mental breakdown. 479 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 2: They got physically ill and had a mental meltdown and 480 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: couldn't proceed. A doctor was called came in attended to 481 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: this person and said this person cannot go on. And 482 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: so the judge had to discharge the jury and in 483 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: panel a new jury just to find a group of people, 484 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: which they did and they impanel a new jury and 485 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: the trial happens. During the trial, King's father, Clive King, 486 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 2: sits in court and cries when he hears the evidence. 487 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: The most grueling part of the evidence was a reconstruction 488 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: of the crime where police have gone out with the 489 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: bad guys and they've got him to reconstruct what they did, 490 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: and they film it. Police film it and with the 491 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: flex and tying the hands and tying their feet, the 492 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: whole thing. And this is very graphic because it's been 493 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: filmed and a screened in the court and his dead silence, 494 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 2: and I know what it was like because one of 495 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: my former colleagues is no longer with us Ian Livingstone, 496 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: known in the trade as Doc Livingstone. He was then 497 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: a young reporter and he'd been sent up there to 498 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 2: cover this case. He'd gone to Hamilton when it first happened, 499 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 2: and then he covered the case. He saw the whole 500 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: thing all the way through, and he described it in 501 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: one of the most chilling and searing pieces of journalism 502 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: I've ever read. And he described the scene in court, 503 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: and he described the reactions of those there, and how 504 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: sick everybody felt, how King's parents were distraught, how King 505 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 2: looked ashamed, and how Christopher Russell Lowry smiled, didn't care, 506 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: he smiled. And after they were found guilty by the 507 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 2: jury after just less than two hours, pretty quick, really, 508 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: they were found guilty. King looked pretty shattered, and Lowry 509 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: attempted to do like a victory salut or a victory 510 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: wave until a policeman grabbed his hands and pulled them down. 511 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: He was just a piece of work. There was evidence 512 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: led by a psychologists from Melbourne University, a Professor Cox, 513 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: who said that Lowry was a psychopath, a saddest and 514 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: words the effect that he was manipulative and cunning. King 515 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: was regarded as probably more intelligent than but relatively easily 516 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 2: led a weak out personality, which is probably true. It 517 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 2: was one of those situations where one influences the other. 518 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: Ian Livingston is covering the case. He follows the prison 519 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 2: van out of Ballarat to drive back to Melbourne, and 520 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 2: he's got with him a female reporter or photographer, whatever 521 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: doesn't matter. And he said, as we pulled up behind 522 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: the prison ban there was a window in a prison van. 523 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 2: He said, Lowry's making obscene gestures at the female passenger 524 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: in my car. So this man has been sentenced to death. 525 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: They were probably, I believe, the last people in Victoria 526 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 2: ever to be sentenced formally to death. But it didn't 527 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: worry him. He probably didn't think he was going to hang, 528 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: and he was right. He wasn't going to hang. The 529 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: death sentence, although it was still on the books, was 530 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: in effect already in a de facto way, had been 531 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 2: retired already. The fact that these two guys did not 532 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: get hanged proved that the death sentence was never ever 533 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 2: going to be used again in Victoria, because if you 534 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: weren't going to hang this pair for this crime, you 535 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: couldn't hang anybody. The death sentence was duly commuted to 536 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: life imprisonment by the Governor Sarhundalecam. These two reptiles were 537 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: sentenced to sixty years jail with a minimum of fifty 538 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 2: which was fair enough. That meant the rest of their lives, effectively, 539 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,439 Speaker 2: the rest of their lives in jail. And although June 540 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: Naughty and her father and probably her ex husband Roslin's father, 541 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: although they would have preferred these killers to be hanged, 542 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 2: they realized that that wasn't going to happen, and they 543 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: said that a minimum of fifty years was a just 544 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 2: result because it was life, life for a life. Well, 545 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: they were cheated, those people. June not He died two 546 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 2: and a half years later of a brain tumor. Her father, 547 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: mister McCallum, he died the same year as she did, 548 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: three months apart. I think Rosen's father lived on for 549 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 2: a few years. But they were cheated because the system 550 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 2: totally let them down, having told them that their daughter's 551 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: killers would get fifty year minimum in the late eighties. 552 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: This is only the next decade. We're going from nineteen 553 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: to seventy three. I think the actual death sentence was 554 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: pronounced nineteen seventy three to about eighty seven or eighty eight. 555 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: It was revealed that King had been released from jail 556 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 2: overnight to take a visit to suburban Melbourne. He was 557 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 2: led out of Beechworth Jail and put on the train 558 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: or driven to Melbourne so he could spend the night 559 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 2: with a female friend. And within a little more time 560 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 2: he was given more and more privileges from a very 561 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 2: soft prison Beachworth, Durranguy, those sort of soft jails, because 562 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: he wasn't regarded as a heavyweight security risk. I think 563 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 2: Lowry was regarded a little bit differently. But the point 564 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: remains that by the late eighties one of them was 565 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: getting out regularly and it was clear to everybody that 566 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 2: they were both going to get out well ahead. Those 567 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: two guys were released because of a change in sentencing laws, 568 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 2: a retrospective change in sentencing laws. They were both released 569 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two. I think it was ninety two 570 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 2: or ninety three. They'd served twenty one years and they 571 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: were led out for good twenty one years instead of 572 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 2: fifty minimum. That I believe was an absolute betrayal of 573 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 2: Rosen Naughty's and friends and everyone who loved her. They'd 574 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 2: believe that those guys were going to get jail for 575 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 2: the rest of their lives. It was a fair expectation, 576 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 2: and the system, politicians, judges, lawyers, whatever, the system betrayed Wilson, 577 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 2: not his mother essentially, and her parents and her grandfather. 578 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 2: They weren't around to see it, at least two of 579 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 2: them weren't. But it was a shameful thing. And it 580 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: was that betrayal that led Ian Livingstone, who, as I said, 581 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 2: he's no longer with us. He was a very fine 582 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 2: journalist on the forerunner of the herald Son, the Sun 583 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: News Pictorial, and I worked with him and he was 584 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: a very fine journalist. And he wrote a searing, absolute 585 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: crackerjack piece about Lowry and King and how it was 586 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,240 Speaker 2: about the worst thing he'd ever covered in his life. 587 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: And when I thought that it's time to have another 588 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: look at this, I thought of that piece that I 589 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 2: read back in nineteen eighty eight, and I could remember 590 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: nearly every phrase in it, and I looked it up 591 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: and there it was, and I've quoted it extensively in 592 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 2: the story that I've done for the Sunday herald Son 593 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 2: to mark the anniversary of the first time those pair 594 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 2: of vermin were put before a court, that is in 595 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 2: April of nineteen seventy one. PostScript. Lowry was a bad 596 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 2: guy who stayed bad. He was a thief, He was 597 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 2: a bash artist. He was a drug user and probably 598 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 2: a drug dealer, ended up using a different name and 599 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 2: all the rest of it, but ended up dead not 600 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 2: before time, and around two thousand and six, I think 601 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven he ended up dead. Pity, it 602 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: wasn't much earlier. And Charles King, the gentler one, the 603 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 2: not so bad one, perhaps the weaker one. He'd made 604 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: a name for himself very early in jail as being 605 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 2: a model prisoner. He'd studied hard, he'd become quite a 606 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 2: gifted artist. He had an artistic bent, and he did 607 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: get quite a few people on side to push up 608 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 2: for the fact that he was rehabilitated, etc. And when 609 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 2: he got out he was able to drift into the 610 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 2: community and lose himself using I presume a false name. 611 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 2: But he did have one advantage. Although he went through 612 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: the system under the name Charles King when he'd been 613 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 2: charged with the murder, Charles King, and he'd always been 614 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 2: called Charlie Charles, but on his birth certificate it turns 615 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 2: out he was named after his father and his real 616 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 2: name on his birth certificate was Clive Clive Ian King, 617 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: not Charles, and so it was that King was able 618 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 2: to go through life, later producing that ID under the 619 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 2: name Clive and he would never have to worry about 620 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 2: passing a police check. And ten years ago our newspaper 621 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 2: Shannon Deary on a Sunday Herald Son wrote a story 622 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 2: exposing the fact that this murderer, torturer and murderer who'd 623 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 2: been sentenced to death for his crimes, he'd worked for 624 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 2: the Catholic Church, in fact, for the Carratus Christie hospice 625 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 2: out in the Northern Suburbs for eleven years as a 626 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 2: maintenance manager, I think, and that was very good that 627 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 2: he'd held down a job for eleven years. Of course, 628 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 2: he needed a steady job because he'd been able to 629 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 2: get married and he had kids growing up that he 630 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 2: had to support, so he needed to look after them 631 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: rather better than he'd looked after Ross and Noughty. Before 632 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 2: we leave, don't go away, because coming up we have 633 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 2: the first episode of the new crime podcast series Dear Rochelle, 634 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 2: and we'll be speaking to the host of that show 635 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 2: next week on life and Crimes. 636 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 3: I'll happen through I've seen this fire on the right hand, 637 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 3: thought grabbed me to watch, and all of a sudden, 638 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 3: I've got this flash of gold in my face and 639 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 3: I've got back, And there was a Bengal on a hand. 640 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 3: Burnt body was found on a lonely South Coast road. 641 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: The twenty three year old disappeared from a pub in Bargo. 642 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,800 Speaker 3: The callous way that she was dubbed here and just 643 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 3: discarded like a percy rubbish and set on fire. 644 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: A young woman in a prime of alive. 645 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: Her name was Rochelle Childs and her killer has eluded 646 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: police for more than two decades. 647 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 4: Sister was vivacious. She was everything to me growing up. 648 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: She was attractive, friendly, funny, but loved cars. 649 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 4: One of the members I've Rocky team. She really cared 650 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 4: about the people around her. We just all got ripped 651 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 4: off and and her especially. 652 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: This case should never have been left to run cold. 653 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 4: It has been twenty three years. It's time for the 654 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 4: truth to come out. 655 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: Join some of Australia's sharpest criminal minds in this live investigation. 656 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 4: I think the person who killed her would be worried 657 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 4: about this podcast. 658 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 2: I'm absolutely sure that we've interviewed the crow us in 659 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 2: that brief. Have we got a shirkill on the hand. 660 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 3: When you're dealing with sex offenders, it takes years of 661 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 3: experience to realize how clever they are. 662 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 4: What would it mean to find justice everything? I'd just 663 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 4: love to see person off the streets. 664 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 2: Its no doubt about. It's a red odd suspect. Rochelle 665 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 2: was killed by someone she knew. 666 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 4: She was very trusting, and I think she'd trust to 667 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 4: the wrong person. 668 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 2: People saying to me, oh, you know you're going to 669 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 2: be a suspect, and they're like, oh, you're the ex boyfriend. 670 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 4: What do you mean, Like, I'll help it, They'll think 671 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 4: about it. 672 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 3: What sorry? 673 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 1: People too afraid to speak out for decades of breaking 674 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: their silence for Rochelle. 675 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 4: He doesn't scare me at all anymore. 676 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 2: What you're doing is potentially very valuable to the public, 677 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 2: but potentially very harmful to a dangerous person. I'm afraid 678 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 2: you fit the profile. 679 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 4: He's in and around everything like he's just there. My 680 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 4: heart was racing, it was confronting. I will never have 681 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 4: peace until my sister's murderer is found. My worst sphere 682 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 4: is that person who Hill Rochelle has killed again. 683 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 3: This is solvable if Fender, responsible for this crime is 684 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 3: still alive. 685 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 4: He's the devil. 686 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 1: Dealershell A groundbreaking podcast series exclusively from True Crime Australia, 687 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: hosted by me Ashley Hanson, Available now. Visit Dealershell dot 688 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: com dot a U for more. That's d E A 689 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: R R A c h E w l E dot 690 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: com dot a U. 691 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:36,320 Speaker 4: You can run away, but you can't hide.