1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the show. 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm with my I'm going to say maybe my favorite 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: scientist at the moment in the world, doctor Bill Sullivan. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 2: Do you know? 5 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Firstly, Hi, Doc, how are you. 6 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: I'm doing great? Great, I'm doing great. Thanks for having 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: me on. Just so flattered by the favorite scientists comment. 8 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: I was a little discombinulated. 9 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Well, I talked to a lot of scientists, and I 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: am a scientist and I work with I love that 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: you are such And I'm not just saying this because 12 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: we're together, like I love. I love if I'm being honest, 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: I love how much I don't have to prepare because 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: I know how good you are at this and I 15 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: know what a good science communicator you are. And we 16 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: spoke about that last time. We've spoken about that before. 17 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: But you know you, Andrew Huberman's pretty good. You know, 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: the neuroscientist. Do you know who he is? I'm guessing 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: the Huberman guy? 20 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: Is that who you said? Yeah, he's come under some 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: fire recently over here? 22 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's he? What's he in troubleful? 23 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: Well? 24 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: Did he? I got that about some personal relationships? So 25 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: something or was it something else. 26 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: That might be part of it. What I remember specifically are, like, 27 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: the accusations are a lot of hyperbole in his in 28 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: his podcasts, Biden error errors, misleading information, and uh, you 29 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: know that's always difficult when you go on and have 30 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: these conversations, you know, because you don't have textbooks and 31 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: papers in front of you to fact check information and 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: real time, so you know, there's got to be some 33 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: balance struck there. But and again I only know this 34 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: conversation rather superficially because I was not a follower of 35 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: his podcast. In fact, I've never even heard of it, 36 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: to be honest with you, until these accusations started coming 37 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: down that there's some very alarming errors in some of 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: the podcasts that could be leading misleading people to you know, 39 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: misbelieve in certain things. And apparently he hawks products, supplements 40 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: and things of this nature, which automatically, in my mind, 41 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: puts a conflict of interest in a lot of what 42 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: he's trying to say. If you're trying to sell something 43 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, you've got to take 44 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 2: that information with a grain of salt, because he's probably 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: going to try to market that product at the same time. 46 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: I guess that's a it's an ongoing challenge, isn't it 47 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: Because in terms of like full transparency as a scientist 48 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: and as a researcher and as an educator, you don't 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about you or may or him necessarily, 50 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: but in generally speaking with science, like every scientist is 51 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: a human and everyone, you know, well most people have 52 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: like you know, everyone's looking through their filter, and everyone's 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: got pre existing beliefs and values, and I guess everyone 54 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: to an extent has self interest in there. And one 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: of the challenges I've being fully transparent is sometimes the 56 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: data isn't what we want, or the outcome is and 57 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: what we want or expected, or sometimes we've got to 58 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: unlearned things. You know. It's like this is a very 59 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: well worn example on my show. But I remember, like 60 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: I started working in gym's in nineteen eighty two, doc, 61 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: and you know, originally just as a gym instructor and 62 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: then a trainer, and then an exercise physiologist as I 63 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: got more qualified and went back to school and all 64 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: those things. But you know, I remember teaching essentially the 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: food pyramid for a long time because that's what I 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: thought was groundbreaking science, you know, and then you then 67 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: at some stage, and lots of other things that I've 68 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: taught and believed that proved to be either somewhat flawed 69 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: or completely flawed. And then you kind of got to 70 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: figure out if you want to protect your ego or 71 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: just be truthful and go, hey everyone, I fuck, I 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: got this wrong thought. I thought I was teaching you 73 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: something that was true and valid and authentic and the 74 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: best science. But it turns out it wasn't. So here's 75 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: what I know now, right. 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point, and the whole 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: ego question really gets involved, and I think it works 78 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: both ways. To be honest with you, Craig, someone can 79 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: be very egotistical to the fact that they will start 80 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 2: doubling down on what is demonstrably false and making themselves 81 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: look really silly in the process. But because of that vanity, 82 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: they can't let that go or they can't admit that 83 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: they were wrong. That's an error on that person's Paul 84 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: but part but I think as an audience or as 85 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: you know, listeners or readers, we also have to understand that, 86 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: you know, it's okay for people to be wrong if 87 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: they admit something that they believed in was false because 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: because new evidence has presented itself. Okay, yea, and they're 89 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: modifying their opinion. You can't then alt that person for 90 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: like waffling or not sticking to their guns. Yeah, I 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: think this is a This is a real issue, especially 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: in a politically polarized society where you know the captain 93 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: of your team, your political party can't do any wrong 94 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: no matter what. Okay, even if you can, like you 95 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 2: got the receipts and you can show look, you are 96 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: actually wrong about this. But both the politicians as well 97 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: as some of the partisans have trouble adapting to change. 98 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: Scientists go through this too, as you probably know, we 99 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 2: need our pet theories and our dogmas, and it can 100 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: be really painful, very unintuitive to let those sorts of 101 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: things go. But that's how science works. It is an 102 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: ongoing process, and you should continually adapt your beliefs and 103 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: opinions based on the evidence rather than trying to find 104 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: evidence that suit your beliefs and opinions. 105 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: And I think when you're trying to find evidence that 106 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: you know suit your beliefs and opinions, you know, confirmation bias, 107 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: the old echo chain, but whatever we want to call it, 108 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: then you're cherity picking data or chery, picking science or 109 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: pseudoscience that makes you feel good about what you already think. 110 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: And you know, when your identity and your sense of 111 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: self are intertwined with a certain idea or ideology or belief, 112 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: then the idea or the prospect of being open minded 113 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: or objective or willing to unlearn or put up the 114 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: end and go I got it wrong. It's almost zero 115 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: because that belief is part of your identity. So if 116 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: you attack that belief or that idea, you attack me, 117 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: so fuck off. 118 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it days in the process truth 119 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 2: and democracy, those can't hold up in a society that 120 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: will reject reality in evidence or facts in favor of 121 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: their own personal beliefs or opinions. You know, if we 122 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: want to move forward and progress in a productive manner 123 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: in a society, we can't ignore reality. We have to 124 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: exercise a level of intellectual humility as well as curiosity 125 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: to continue to learn as new facts present themselves. As 126 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: a scientist, I've grown very comfortable with the concept of uncertainty, 127 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: and I try to apply that to all aspects of 128 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: my life. I am out one hundred percent sure this 129 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: is the right way to do something, or that this 130 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: belief is as strong as I feel it could be. 131 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: And I've found that to be a much more liberating 132 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: way to live, you know, a much more satisfying way 133 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: to live than always having to defend my beliefs or assertions. 134 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, I put up It's funny you 135 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: say this I have. I don't know if you've ever seen, 136 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: but my Instagram is just about five thousand whiteboard messages 137 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: that I've handwritten on my whiteboard and then I take 138 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: a photo of it and I put it up. And 139 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: the message that I put out any yesterday or the 140 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: day before was if you're not okay with uncertainty, you 141 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: won't be okay with life. You guy's life. I mean, 142 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: life is unpredictable. Life is uncertain. Life is at times uncomfortable, 143 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: like all the uns all the things we don't want 144 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: are inevitable. So rather than trying to be certain and 145 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: right and comfortable all the time, just leaning to what 146 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: is not necessarily what you want, but rather what is 147 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: and what is is that you will be wrong, is 148 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: that you will fuck up, is that you will you 149 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: will make mistakes, is that you will get embarrassed, that 150 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: you will look silly. All of those things part of 151 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: the human experience and absolutely okay. 152 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, I think there's a deep rooted evolutionary 153 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: need for us to maintain a certain status, you know, 154 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: in our tribe. So way back in the day, when 155 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: we were just for hunters and gatherers on the planes, 156 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: living in these small communal groups, your reputation was everything. 157 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: I mean, that was really important. So we had an 158 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: evolutionary motive to build a reputation, you know, whether it 159 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: would be false or true that you know, we're the 160 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: shit you know, ion attractive mate and you know I've 161 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: got it going on. So when you when you consider 162 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: the next time you're struggling to prove yourself right or 163 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: to satisfy your ego in some argument rather than accept 164 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: another point of view, think about where that impulse came from. 165 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: And it all seems so silly, doesn't it. I Mean, 166 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: we don't need to do that anymore. We don't need 167 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: that level of security in those relationships. It's just an 168 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: evolutionary farce that we carry with us today that I 169 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 2: think does more harm than it does good in the 170 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: modern society. You know, it might have been very valuable 171 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 2: back on the African planes when we were coming down 172 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: from the trees. But it really just generates a bunch 173 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: of stress and anxiety today that is completely unnecessary. 174 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: And I think the iron is that well, anyway, my 175 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: experienced up is that the more the more authentic I am, 176 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: which obviously sometimes I get trapped up in all my 177 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: own bullshit, but I try to be truly transparent and 178 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: authentic and book about the things I got, the numerous 179 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: things I got wrong and the few things I got right, 180 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: and my own issues and insecurity and self doubt, imposter 181 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: syndrome and all the bullshit that comes with being Craig Harper. 182 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: But the more that I opened that door and just 183 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, while teaching and coaching and encouraging, but also 184 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: open the look, I'm a really flawed human having it go, 185 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: people resonate more with that than the guy who presents 186 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: himself as knowing everything like and I'm not doing it strategically. 187 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: It's just a by product where I went, oh wow, 188 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: I don't need to be the smartest person, not only 189 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: in the room but in any conversation even right. 190 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you say people resonate with that, 191 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 2: because I do think in certain categories of individuals it 192 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 2: certainly does resonate because we've all been there, we've all 193 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: felt that way. It's something we have in common. But 194 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: imagine if a politician exuded that attitude, how slammed they 195 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: would get. I mean, at least in this country they would. 196 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: I mean, if you had someone who was intellectually humble, 197 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: or curious or wanted to hear both sides of the 198 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: story and try to compromise and come to the truth 199 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: rather than what the party says. You're dead on a 200 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: rival as a politician, because in this country, at least, 201 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: you have to be so confident, so authoritative, so sure 202 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: of yourself that or else you're gonna look weak. And 203 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: I think that is a really horrible way to go 204 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: about picking who's going to lead you. I would much 205 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: rather have Craig Harper for president. You know, someone who 206 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: has that sort of humility that can admit a mistake 207 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: or admit that I'm curious to what the other side 208 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: has to say, you know, or even admit that some 209 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 2: of their arguments have merits. So let's investigate a way 210 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: that we can incorporate both sides of the equation and 211 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: move forward. That to me seems much more leadership quality 212 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: and in fact, if you look at businesses, those are 213 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: the kinds of leaders that technically succeed the most. I 214 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: think studies have been done on this. Leaders that are kind, 215 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: who seek compromise and who are humble are much more 216 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 2: successful than the tyrannical authoritarians who are full of ego 217 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: and pride and just say my way or the highway. 218 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: Those often fall flat on their face. And you can 219 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: see that with politics as well. 220 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: I used to work in radio dot for a long 221 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: time and I basically was I worked on a there's 222 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: a station in Melbourne and around Australight out called the 223 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: Sports Sense Timement Network, which is just called SCN, and 224 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: we used to have a show called The Science of 225 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: Sport and I used to do you know for a 226 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: long time, and we just audience view people. There be 227 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: general chat, but also people would ring up with questions 228 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: and sometimes people would ring up with questions that were 229 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: way out of my pay grade, like the more clinical 230 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: medical questions than exercise science or physiology you or you know, 231 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: And I would say to people, yeah, I can't really 232 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: answer that. I could have a guess, but we definitely 233 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: don't need the guy on the radio guessing about your 234 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: knee problem. When I can't see you, I can't assess you. 235 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: I've never met you, I've never seen you walk or 236 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: get in or out of a chair, And so I'd 237 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: be doing me and you were disservice if I gave 238 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: you some random clinical diet and the producer would say 239 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: to me, you kind you can't say you don't know, 240 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: And I'd say to him, but I don't know. I'm 241 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: not a doctor or a physical therapist as you call 242 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: him in the States. Over here we call him a physiogm. 243 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm you know, my job is prescribing exercise and all, 244 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, But there are times when I just say, look, 245 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: I have some thoughts and ideas, but that's not sharing 246 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: in a public place on that, and I would be 247 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: at best having an educated guess. And after a while 248 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: I had sorted itself out. They didn't like me saying 249 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, because they're like, you're the expert. I go, 250 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm the expert on exercise prescription and programming. I'm not 251 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: a doctor, so I'm not going to answer doctor questions. 252 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: You know. 253 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it would be irresponsible if you did. You know, 254 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: you're just acknowledging, you know, some of the limits of 255 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: your knowledge, which I wish more people would do, because 256 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: we get a lot of people who go way outside 257 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: their lean and start pontificating on matters of all sorts 258 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: of things in a very authoritative way. It's perfectly fine 259 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: to have a conversation and throw opinions and thoughts around, 260 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: but when you come off as an expert in a 261 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: field where you're not really an expert in that field, 262 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: then you start to get into an area that is 263 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: arguably unethical. 264 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: Yes, and also, like the truth is with a lot 265 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: of especially when we're trying to treat a human, a 266 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: unique individual human who has their own unique physiology and biology. 267 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: It's like what will work for you? 268 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 3: Know? 269 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: It's like some people can eat nuts and some people can't. 270 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: It's the same thing, and they both have a body. 271 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: And some people will do a certain workout and have 272 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: no post exercise soreness, and some people won't be able 273 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: to move for three days. And some people will go 274 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: and do a metation class and feel relaxed and calm 275 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: and rejuvenated. If you put me in a meditation class, 276 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: I want to punch someone in the face because it 277 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work for me. Right, Like fuck meditation, Put me 278 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: in nature, put me on a motorbike. That's when I'm calm, 279 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: you know. And it's not that it's good or bad, 280 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: right or wrong. It's trying to understand individually what people need. 281 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: And there's this very kind of almost generic mindset that 282 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, I feel this way or I'm dealing with this, 283 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: and then people go, oh, you know what you need, 284 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: you need to do that. Well. Maybe there's a lady 285 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: called Abigail Shreier who I've spoken about this a bit recently, 286 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: but she wrote a book in the last few months 287 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: called Bad Therapy, and she was talking about she interviewed 288 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: lots of great psychotherapists and psychologists and psychiatrists, you know, 289 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: ladies in their field, and basically what came out is 290 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: that for some people, talk therapy is brilliant and for 291 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: other people, talk therapy is terrible, you know, the exact 292 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: same treatment, so to speak. And so you know, there's 293 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: this individual variability about what will work for Bill won't 294 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: work for crying necessarily, because Bill aren't cry and Craig 295 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: ain't Bill. 296 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: Right right, And you can even do that for the 297 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: individual because what works for you at a certain age 298 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 2: might not work for you at a later age, you know, 299 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: So you've got to keep this one size fits all model, 300 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: you know, just throw that out the window. Everybody is 301 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: different and in fact, you are different at you know, 302 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 2: variable parts in your life, so you always have to 303 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: keep an open mind towards that. It goes back to 304 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 2: one of these other evolutionary biases that we've had long ago. 305 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 2: You know, our brains evolve to make these shortcuts because 306 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 2: it's an energy haul. It consumes a huge amount of 307 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: our caloric intake. So our brain, as wonderful and smart 308 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 2: as it is, it takes a lot of mental shortcuts, 309 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 2: and generalizing is one of the key ones that it does. 310 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: It saves a lot of time, and you know, sometimes 311 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: it gets it right. But when we're doing when we 312 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 2: chase these one size fits all models, that's exactly what 313 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 2: we're doing. We're just extrapolating one thing and we think 314 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: it applies to every situation without any exceptions. And that's 315 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: a really lazy way to go about thinking. And I 316 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: think when you're talking in terms of like exercise, regimen, 317 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: diet therapy, and in my field, personalized medicine is all 318 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: the rave these days, so we're seeing the same concept 319 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: being applied across all these different disciplines where even with medication, 320 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 2: you know, you would think we're all human beings. This 321 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: pill should do the same thing in person A as 322 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: it does for person B. Most of the time, it 323 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: probably does, but there are exceptions out there. Okay. There 324 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: are sex differences, for example, that are very clear. There 325 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: are age differences, that's the most obvious one. There's body 326 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: size differences. Okay. So this wave of personalized medicine hopefully 327 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 2: will make you know, future pharmaceuticals much more amenable to 328 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: individual people and will find more targeted treatments, and you 329 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: can apply that same principle across the board, like with 330 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: psychological therapy, talk therapy as you mentioned, and even diet 331 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 2: and exercise programs. So people should never get frustrated that 332 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: something that worked for one person isn't working for them. 333 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's not like it's your fault or anything. 334 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: It's probably something biological that you have no control over, 335 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 2: and you're just going to find a different solution. 336 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: What do you think about Like last time we spoke about, 337 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: I think that the show was well, the show is 338 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: definitely around you know, people being able to apply scientific 339 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: ideas and principles and practices, even though they're not scientists. 340 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: That's what we spoke about. 341 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 4: But what do you think about the idea of us 342 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 4: you know, an equals one, but say putting something into 343 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 4: practice for a period of times seven days, for ten days, 344 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 4: twenty eight days, and just changing that one variable to 345 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 4: see what happens. 346 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: So when COVID started in early twenty twenty, you know, 347 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: Melbourne in Australia was like you could shoot a shotgun 348 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: up the street and there was because everyone was locked 349 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: down for like I didn't have another human being come 350 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: to my house for eight months, right. But anyway, one 351 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: of the byproducts of that for me was I was 352 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: moving less and I gained not a lot of weight, 353 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: but I guess the equivalent of you know, ten pounds 354 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: maybe four four and a half kilos, and which for 355 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: me is a lot because I always stay around the 356 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: same and I just thought, I'm going to cut out lunch. 357 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: I'm just not going to have lunch for a couple 358 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: of weeks and see what happens. Because I was we 359 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: couldn't even go to the gym, so I had to try. 360 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: I had to figure out how to train at home 361 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: without all this stuff because the gyms were closed, which 362 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: is crazy anyway, that's another that's another conversation. But so 363 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: I cut out lunch for fourteen days, and the first day, 364 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: what I noticed was that mid afternoon kind of fatigue 365 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: and tiredness that I was getting, which I was thinking 366 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: to myself, like, I'm sixty hours fifty six. Then I 367 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: was thinking, oh, well, Craig, that's because you're fifty six, right, 368 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: you're old. You get tired in the afternoon, right, that's 369 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: just suck it up, princess, your future. I first day, 370 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: I noticed that I didn't have that dip. Second day good, 371 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: My energy from breakfast to dinner was good. And every 372 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: every day this tiredness that I'd had disappeared. I lost 373 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: the weight, my mental energy, my focus, my ability to concentrate, 374 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: interview people had meaningful everything was better. And my body 375 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: told me, or taught me, you don't need to eat 376 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: as much as you eat or as often as you eat. 377 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: And so that was the last time that was, you know, 378 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: four years ago that I ate lunch, and wow, so 379 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: today's still today. You still don't lunch. I breakfast and dinner. 380 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: And again I don't recommend that to people. It's not 381 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: a I just tell people what I did, what my 382 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: what my data was, and my personal experience. And it's 383 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: funny because if not for that situation, I probably wouldn't 384 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: have done that, you know. And yeah, it's like I know, 385 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: for example, if I do some cardio training in the morning, 386 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: my brain works better through the day. I couldn't give 387 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: you a number, but it's deffinite, Like there's all of 388 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: these things that like, your body is this amazing feedback system, 389 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: this biological feedback system that's always telling you something right, 390 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: But I think we've become somewhat disconnected from it. 391 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe so people don't listen to their body signals 392 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 2: as much, or they surrender too easily. Like it sounds 393 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: like you had an adaption phase. Your body did not 394 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: adapt too well, missing lunch for the first few days 395 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: or a week, but you gave it enough time where 396 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 2: your body said, Okay, this is what Craig's doing. He 397 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: really means it. We're just going to have to adjust 398 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 2: and your body did so. Yeah we should, I mean, 399 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: Socrates said, no thyself. And a part of that is 400 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: understanding and paying attention to what your body is trying 401 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: to tell you and even if you're you know, if 402 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 2: you're a lot of times when we get into trying 403 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: healthy habits or making healthy changes, our body is resistant 404 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: at first because it loves the comforts that it previously enjoyed. 405 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: Forming new habits is difficult because we're abandoning those creature comforts, 406 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: if you will. But you've got to gut through that, 407 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 2: just as you did with you know, this little noontime 408 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: fast I suppose we can call it. Yeah, you get 409 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: over those initial hurdles and you'll be surprised at what 410 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: your body can do. And I think a lot of people, 411 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 2: especially in the US, can get by just fine with 412 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: a lot less food. Okay, we gorge ourselves to the 413 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: point where, you know, we think it's the norm. We 414 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: just eat way way too much. I don't think a 415 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: lot of people count calories much less, you know, pay 416 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: attention to when they're actually full. They'll just continue to 417 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: keep on eating. So if people are a little more 418 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: cognizant of that, I think that would go a long way. 419 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: And if you have trouble, you know, interpreting some of 420 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: what your body is telling you, like in the case 421 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: of diet, you can do things like count calories and 422 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: things like that. It's a crude measure, but it's relatively effective. 423 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: It gives you at least some kind of gauge as 424 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: to what sort of amount of foods you're putting into 425 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: your body that might be way more than you actually need. 426 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: So there's a variety of ways you can monitor the 427 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 2: signals your body is telling you. 428 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Definitely, I think. Also, you know you were talking in 429 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: Togo about how you know our body changes over time 430 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: and maybe what worked for you in your twenties won't 431 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: work for you in your thirties, forties, fifty. 432 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I can't eat a plate of hot wings 433 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 2: at ten o'clock at night anymore. It just ain't happen. 434 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: But I used to be like a go to thing 435 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 2: when I was young, and I didn't think twice about it. 436 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 2: I do it now. Oh man, I probably won't see 437 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: you again. 438 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: You know that's hilarious, right, Well, I grew up in 439 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: the country, So I grew up in rural Victoria drinking 440 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: gallons of milk. Well at half a cup of milk. 441 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm out, like it's I can't. I have to, man, 442 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: Lactose don't go great anymore because you know what is it? 443 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: It lactise is the enzyme that breaks down lactose. Don't 444 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: we stop producing as much lactise as we get older 445 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 1: and so my body doesn't love it. 446 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, lactose intolerance is related to that enzyme, right, And 447 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: you know people who can digest lactose are actually the mutants. 448 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: Human beings were never meant to ingest milk beyond breastfeeding periods. Okay, 449 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: that enzyme is supposed to get shut off. But as 450 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 2: humans started to migrate and domesticate animals in areas where 451 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: there wasn't plentiful food, they would rely on the milk 452 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: that those animals produced in order to survive. So people 453 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: who continued to make at least some sort of lactase 454 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: had a survival advantage in those environmental areas. So that's 455 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: why some people are lactose tolerant. But yeah, you could 456 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: make an argument that we're not meant to be drinking 457 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: milk after breastfeeding, but some people can tolerate it, and 458 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: it's perfectly fine. 459 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: Now, I feel like I've been quite negligent of you 460 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: and your work, and I decided today it's taken us 461 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: long time to get to this point, but I wanted 462 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: to talk about your book, which is placed to meet me, jeens, 463 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: gems and the curious forces that make us who we are. 464 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: But I wanted, I want to, I want you to 465 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of and I think almost like the subtext is 466 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: or like what makes me me? Or what makes us us? 467 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: So can we talk about your book a little bit? 468 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: And this is way out of my area of expertise, 469 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: so I'm going to be completely led by you. But firstly, 470 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: give us a snapshot of the book and why you 471 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: wrote the book if you would. 472 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 4: No. 473 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, If there's one thing I love to talk about 474 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: in this world, it's that book. I put my heart 475 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: and soul into that thing, and it was years in 476 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: the making, and it grew out of a number of things, 477 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: primarily the research that I do at Indiana University, but 478 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: also just an intellectual curiosity of why I like certain 479 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: things and why other people don't. You know, why I 480 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: would do this behavior and why other people would not. 481 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: So I wanted to understand some of the biological, you know, 482 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: properties that gave rise to those very different behaviors. And 483 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: the very first one that intrigued me the most was 484 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: it's a benign example, but it's but it's an interesting 485 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 2: one was as I was growing up, I always had 486 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: this severe aversion to broccoli. I just could not stand 487 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: that vegetable or its relatives like caulflower and Brussels sprouts, 488 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: all these cruciferous vegetables. I just put them in my 489 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: mouth and I just immediately wanted to gag. In fact, 490 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: my reaction was so bad. If my mom was even 491 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: cooking these things in the kitchen, I would have to 492 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: leave because the aroma was was so horrible. And I 493 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: was kind of surprised because I didn't encounter a lot 494 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: of people like me. A lot of people could stomach this, 495 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: you know this what these vegetables very well, and I 496 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: couldn't understand why they would put this gross thing into 497 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: their mouth. And it turns out that I was doing 498 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 2: some research on this, that there is a gene Okay 499 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: that is mutated in people like me, and it encodes 500 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: for a taste bud that recognizes the bitter chemicals that 501 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: are present in cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, and it recognizes 502 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: them very strongly. It binds to them very tightly, and 503 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: when that happens on your tongue, it sends a signal 504 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: to your brain that Oh my god, you just put 505 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 2: something poisonous in your mouth. You better spit this out. 506 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: It's way too bitter. You shouldn't swallow it. But most people, 507 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: they have a taste bud receptor that doesn't bind to 508 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 2: that chemical very tightly, so they don't sense that degree 509 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: of bitterness that I would sense. So there's twenty five 510 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 2: percent of people in the world, according to the estimates, 511 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 2: that are these so called supertasters like me, have these 512 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: taste buds that just bind way too tightly to those 513 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 2: bitter chemicals. So in a way, Craig, I'm a genetic 514 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: mutation and I miss out on some of these vegetables 515 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: that most people in the world can enjoy. And I 516 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: even got myself DNA tested to confirm this result, right, 517 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: and lo and behold, I do have this genetic mutation. 518 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: I'm a bona fide super taster. My son is not, 519 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: but my daughter is. So this is a heritable thing. Wow, 520 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: And that explains why I can't stomach the broccoli. And 521 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 2: there's a really interesting evolutionary component to that story in 522 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 2: that as we were hunters and gatherers foraging for food, 523 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: we would experiment with a lot of different plant life 524 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 2: you know, different roots and leaves and things like that 525 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: to find out what was edible. And I would have 526 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: been one of the people who might have survived. If 527 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: the rest of the trial I ate something and couldn't 528 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: detect the bitter chemicals in it, I wouldn't have been 529 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 2: able to eat that, So, you know, I would have 530 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: had an advantage there. So that's the evolutionary angle to 531 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: that story. And that's just one small example of how 532 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 2: there's a biological basis for everything. So people take their 533 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: tastes in food and drink, you know, very seriously, you know, 534 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: and they think it's something that is inside of them 535 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 2: in their mind that they decide I really like this, 536 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: or I have a strong palate for such and such. 537 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: And what these sorts of experiments are telling me is 538 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 2: that we don't have control over what we like and 539 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: dislike in terms of like food and maybe some beverages. 540 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: We don't control that. That that's a genetic you know, 541 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 2: element that we're born with. And you know that that 542 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 2: was kind of indicating for me in a way that 543 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: you know, I could tell my parents, look, I'm a 544 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: genetic mutant. There was a reason why I was stuffing 545 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: all this broccoli into my mouth and running to the bathroom. 546 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: I was spitting it out right, and that was vindicating 547 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: but also unsettling because it set the thesis for the 548 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: whole book. I go through example after example after example 549 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: of all these things we think are in our control. 550 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: Who Bill decides this, Craig decides that, and it's hogwash. 551 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: It's not true at all. There are biological bases for 552 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 2: just about every personality and behavioral trait that we have. 553 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting. So you weren't just a kid 554 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: with a bad attitude you would, well. 555 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: Some some might, some might dispute that, but yeah, I don't. 556 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: I don't know how my parents feel about it these days, 557 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: you know, even though I showed them the data. But yeah, 558 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: that's what most parents would think. And I can't fault 559 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: them for that. You know, I would have thought the 560 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: same thing if I didn't have this knowledge. I was like, 561 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: shut up and just eat your vegetables. You know they're 562 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: good for you. But you know, I now have great 563 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: sympathy for a you know, like my own daughter, a 564 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 2: child who says, I really can't handle this, this is 565 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: too bitter. 566 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, what about things like psychopathy and sociopathy? How much 567 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: of that do you think? I don't know if this 568 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: is your I'm sure you've got an opinion, but how 569 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: much of that is genetic? How much of that is predetermined? 570 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: So are you referring to like people who are psychopaths 571 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: or social rze? Right, So we have a guy on 572 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: the show regularly who that's his thing he's talking about, 573 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: and he believes it's a lot about you know, what 574 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: people are born with their brain chemistry. 575 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: There's a lot of evidence to support that hypothesis. And 576 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: it's really surprising because if there's any behavior that you 577 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: think a person has control over, it would be how 578 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 2: aggressive they are. Okay, And you know, I do think 579 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: there are certainly some sorts, some sort of therapy and 580 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: things like that that can help people manage aggression and 581 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: maybe rage disorder. But there are some really fascinating studies 582 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: that are signaling two scientists and doctors that there might 583 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: be a lot more to this equation than we've ever 584 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 2: appreciated before. Let me give you a couple quick examples. 585 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 2: So most people, you know, they think about genes, and 586 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 2: they'll think about you know, how tall are you? You know, 587 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: your hair color, your eye color, whether you like broccoli 588 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 2: or not. Things like that. Physical things, yeah, but genes 589 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: can actually have a very far reaching effect into psychological things, 590 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: into the mental dimension that we possess, including how we 591 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: re act our impulse control, whether we're aggressive or or not. 592 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 2: And one of the key genes that has been implicated 593 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 2: in this is something called MAOA. It's also called the 594 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: warrior gene. People don't like that name because a single 595 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 2: gene never really governs behavior. Behavior is dictated by hundreds, 596 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 2: maybe thousands of genes, So we've got to keep that 597 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: caveat in mind. But some very interesting studies have been 598 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: done with this MOOA receptor, and what it does is 599 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: it encodes an enzyme in our brain that breaks down 600 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 2: certain neurotransmitters, and people who are born with the mutation 601 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: in this receptor, or excuse me, in this particular gene 602 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 2: can't break those neurotransmitters down and it leads to a 603 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 2: toxic build up that causes them to be aggressive and 604 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: lose impulse control. And you can make this mutation in 605 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 2: mice and they exhibit the same aggressive behavior. So it's 606 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: a really compelling piece of data that there is at 607 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 2: least one part, you know, involving genetics that goes into aggression, 608 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 2: and genes of course build our brain and dictate a 609 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: lot of our brain chemistry. So when we see studies 610 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: that show certain neurotransmitters are elevated and people who are aggressive, 611 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 2: that probably has a genetic root or maybe an epigenetic root, 612 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: you know, that is responsible for it, and one of 613 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 2: the more fascinating things. Sorry if I'm rambling on the answer, 614 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: but I think it's a really question. It's an important 615 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 2: question and has very real moral implications as to how 616 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: we treat offenders moving forward. Right, So what do you 617 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: think about something like this? Pedophilia is an awful, awful crime. 618 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 2: It's heinous. So there was once this person, this man 619 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 2: who never really got in any trouble all of his life, 620 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden started developing urges that 621 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 2: were just you know, pedophilic in nature, very heinous things 622 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 2: that are just unconscionable. And it turns out shortly after 623 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 2: those behaviors were starting to be exhibited, doctors discovered a 624 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: tumor in his brain. And I forget which section of 625 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 2: the brain it was in, but when they removed the tumor, 626 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 2: these urges stopped, they went away, So it was pressing 627 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: up against some part of his brain, and that anomaly 628 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: was causing those heinous crimes. And lo and behold, that 629 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 2: tumor slowly came back, and with it, the pedophilia came 630 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: back as well. So it's a real nice case of evidence. 631 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not nice because it's pedophilia, but it's 632 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 2: a compelling piece of evidence. It's a it's a convincing 633 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: case that when you see some sort of unusual behavior, 634 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 2: no matter how disgusting it is, there's a biological route 635 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: to it, and we're just possibly ignorant as to what 636 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 2: is causing it. And then you answer, you get to 637 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 2: the real meat of this question. What do you do 638 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 2: with a person like that? It obviously wasn't their fault, 639 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: but we can't let them run amok in society. You know, 640 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 2: we have to protect society from individuals like this. But 641 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 2: their behavior was obviously biological, out of their control. So 642 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: that's a real quandary, and that's what this you know, 643 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 2: the science is trying to inform what we should do 644 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 2: in terms of jurisprudence that will address two issues, one 645 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: providing justice and two keeping society safe. It's interesting to 646 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 2: where the science has brought us. But I do hope God, 647 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 2: what it does, I hope it engender is a bit 648 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 2: more empathy and sympathy in people when they see anomaloust 649 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 2: behavior out there, that it's a there's a biological cause. 650 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 2: And that's actually good news because if we can figure 651 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 2: it out, we might be able to do something more 652 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 2: productive about it. 653 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I've thought about that before. I'm discussing you know, 654 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: the way that people are from one of a less 655 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: scientific explanation, but the way that people are wired. You know, 656 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: what people are attracted to that they didn't choose, Like, 657 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: while I'm with you, it's a horrible crime and behavior 658 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: and we can't obviously be tolerated, and there needs to 659 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: be a practical strategy to dealing with that in a 660 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: legal strategy. But you know, even if we wind it 661 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: back to something less egregious, I guess, like you know, 662 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: if somebody's attracted you know, same sex couples, you know, 663 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: it's like I'm heterosexual, I'm homosexual, whatever it is, I'm 664 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: attracted to this or that, and it's not I didn't 665 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: choose that. That's just how I am. That's how I'm compelled, 666 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: you know, it is, it is and even like you know. 667 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: So the guy that I have on regularly, his name 668 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: is David Gillespie's a really well known author in Australia, 669 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: and he talks about even with sociopathy, people who are 670 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: born basically with an inability to feel empathy. It's not 671 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: that they are choosing to be bad, although they can 672 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: still make choices, of course, but they actually don't feel 673 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: what you and I feel. So if somebody gets hurt, 674 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: if an old lady falls over one, I'm running over 675 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: to help. I'm feeling. I'm offering can I drive her home? 676 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: Can I do it? You know? And I'm genuinely caring 677 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: because I'm glad that I can feel for people and 678 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: sympathize as can you. But some people just don't have that. 679 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: They see someone get hurt, they do not have that response. 680 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: And that is for one of again a better term, 681 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: I mean, that is just how they're wired like that. 682 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: They're not choosing to not feel, they just actually don't feel. 683 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: And so there are yeah, there are these a myriad 684 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: of complicated psychological, biological, and sociological and ethical and moral 685 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: issues that are intertwined which make us uncomfortable, and I 686 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: do not know the answer. It's like with people that 687 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: are naturally attracted to children, I don't know. Of course, 688 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: I hate that behavior and I think there needs to 689 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,919 Speaker 1: be a criminal consequence and all of that. But yeah, 690 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: what do we do with those people? Like how do 691 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: we you know? And it's understandable that people go, oh, 692 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: fuck them, they can all burn in helen, which people do, 693 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: and I understand that too, but it also doesn't it 694 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:10,399 Speaker 1: doesn't fix the or it doesn't address the problem. You know. Yeah, 695 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it is. It is a it's 696 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: a multi dimensional, complicated thing, and that's you know, these 697 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: things are not comfortable or easy, but they are nonetheless 698 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: real and part of the human experience. 699 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 2: Right right, absolutely, And I don't have an answer on 700 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 2: where we go forward with this, you know, but I 701 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 2: find the data really interesting and it's certainly guide us 702 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 2: in making some reform. And I'm a little dismayed that 703 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 2: it isn't happening sooner rather than later, because the current 704 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 2: penal system is just you know, to lock up criminals 705 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 2: with a bunch of other criminals and sometimes put them 706 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,879 Speaker 2: in solitary confinement. And you know, like you said, most 707 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 2: people are just like, fine, lock them away, you know, 708 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,399 Speaker 2: throw away the key. You know, I don't really care 709 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 2: about them, even though the data is telling us that 710 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 2: they were born with certain biological predispositions that were completely 711 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 2: outside of their control and or grew up in an 712 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,879 Speaker 2: environment that they didn't choose that kind of brought out 713 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:18,320 Speaker 2: some of these really negative behaviors or behavioral problems. And 714 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 2: instead of trying to make a genuine effort to rehabilitate 715 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,399 Speaker 2: people or understand what's wrong, we just have this kind 716 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 2: of very crude We're going to lock them up and 717 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 2: hope that serving five or ten years behind bars teaches 718 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 2: them a lesson. We know categorically that is not working. 719 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 2: That does not deter crime, nor does it rehabilitate people. 720 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,719 Speaker 2: So we should abandon what's not working and use this 721 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 2: data to try to move forward and identify maybe a 722 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 2: biological intervention that could be much more effective. So that's 723 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 2: where I hope things go. And the science is really 724 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,439 Speaker 2: making a convincing case with every year that goes by. 725 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 2: But what the real challenge is going to be convincing 726 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 2: people at an emotional level. Because I completely understand that 727 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 2: the angst and the anger that goes towards people who 728 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 2: commit some of the most heinous crimes. You might be 729 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 2: aware that there was this really interesting case recently. I 730 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,839 Speaker 2: believe it was in the UK. This woman was put 731 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 2: away for murdering her own children. I forget how many 732 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 2: of them, but you know, the first child or two 733 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 2: it was, I believe, addressed as SIDS, the sudden infant 734 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 2: death syndrome. But then after like a third or fourth 735 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 2: child also died, suspicions deepened and they figured that she 736 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 2: must be murdering these children and passing it off as SIDS. 737 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,799 Speaker 2: Turns out, I don't know how long it's been, but 738 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 2: it's been years late. They actually identified a genetic mutation 739 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:09,280 Speaker 2: in her children that redisposed them to SIDS. So doesn't 740 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 2: appear that she was lying or murdering these children. So 741 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 2: this innocent woman, you know, served time for something that 742 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 2: was completely out of her control. But our our our 743 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,919 Speaker 2: brains are resistant to this at the moment. They won't 744 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 2: entertain the biological component that underlies aggression and heinous acts. 745 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,239 Speaker 2: And I think that's that's we need to We need 746 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 2: a paradigm shift there in order to get people to 747 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,280 Speaker 2: reorient how we handle. 748 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 3: Uh. 749 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 2: You know, criminal behavior because our current system has you know, 750 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 2: is proving to be really insufficient. 751 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was actually an Australian lighty. Yeah, oh I'm 752 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,440 Speaker 1: sorry I mixed it up, but everything was right, just 753 00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: the country. But yeah, that was an Australian lighty and 754 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,759 Speaker 1: or if not, an identical case. But and I think 755 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: one of the things Bill is is that we look 756 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: at well, yeah, we look at things that we don't 757 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 1: truly understand because we can't understand that. You know, we 758 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: can't know and understand everything, right, but we look through 759 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: our lens and we can't really distinguish between our reality 760 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: and the reality, you know, which is when I go, no, 761 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: that's offensive, that is offensive, that is bad, that is this, 762 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 1: that is that, And for somebody else looking through their 763 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,520 Speaker 1: window at the same thing, it's not offensive at all. 764 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 1: It's funny. And for somebody looking through their window, it's 765 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,919 Speaker 1: curious and interesting and fascinating and they want to lean 766 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: in and learn more. For somebody else, that's confusing, right, 767 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: But I think, you know, we we navigate life. This 768 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,719 Speaker 1: is part of my passion project and part of my PhD. 769 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: But you know, there's a thing in psychology called false 770 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: consensus effect and it essentially speaks to the fact that 771 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: we think that other people think like us. 772 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:14,320 Speaker 3: Right, Okay, we operate, certainly do yeah, we operate unconsciously 773 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,360 Speaker 3: on the on the assumption that, for example, my intention 774 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,280 Speaker 3: when I'm talking to you will be your experience, right. 775 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: And so, you know, realizing that the only person in 776 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,839 Speaker 1: my reality is me. We might be in the as 777 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: I've said many times on this show, you were in 778 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 1: this You and I are in the same conversation at 779 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 1: the same time, but we're not in the same experience, 780 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: not better or worse, just different my experience, your experience. 781 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: And then and then you think about the thousands of 782 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,399 Speaker 1: people who listen to this. You know, when we talked 783 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,239 Speaker 1: about pedophilia, some people might have turned off because that's 784 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 1: disgusting and horrible and how dare you bring it up? 785 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 1: And other people might have gone, well, this makes me uncomfortable, 786 00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: but that's actually interesting, and somebody else might have had 787 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: a different response. And it's not about the stimulus but 788 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: rather our response. But I think we spend so much 789 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: time going through life not recognizing the window through which 790 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: we view the world, but rather thinking that is the world. No, dude, 791 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: that's not the world. That's your version. 792 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that goes back to our brain shortcuts, right 793 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,240 Speaker 2: where we're trying to generalize and we think everyone thinks 794 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,879 Speaker 2: just as we do. But you're exactly right. Our interpretation 795 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 2: of anything is informed by our previous experiences, which for 796 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 2: every person is different. So, yeah, I think you bring 797 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 2: up a really good point. We have to be a 798 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 2: lot more sensitive when we engage in dialogues or encounter 799 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 2: something that you know, we might disagree with at first, 800 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,319 Speaker 2: and try to figure out why, you know, go back 801 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,120 Speaker 2: to know thyself, right, Yeah, figure out why the two 802 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 2: of you have such different opinions. I think that would 803 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,680 Speaker 2: be a much more fun and productive discussion than just 804 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 2: either calling each other names or ignoring one another. 805 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: So let's jump back to your book a little bit. 806 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 1: And this might be a dumb question, so rephrase the 807 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: question to make it better if it's done. But how 808 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 1: much of the way that I am, the way that 809 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 1: I think, the way that I behave, the way that 810 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: I show up in the world, my worldview, the way 811 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: my biology and physiology works. How much of that is predetermined? 812 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: And how much is me determined? 813 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,879 Speaker 2: Ah, well, that's a million dollar question. We may need 814 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,279 Speaker 2: a full another episode to get to the bottom of 815 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 2: that one. But what this kind of gets into are 816 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 2: a number of interesting things, the first of which, what 817 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:51,600 Speaker 2: do you mean by me? What do you mean by self? This? 818 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,680 Speaker 2: You're talking like there's some kind of separate entity inside 819 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 2: of the body of Craig Harper that is more or 820 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 2: less static. 821 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: I love it. Now we're going down a philosophical yeah, yeah, yeah, 822 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 1: But then we go, okay, so where does my body 823 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: finish and where do I start? Or am like, because 824 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: clearly I'm more than a body, but without a body, 825 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:26,800 Speaker 1: I'm not right. So psychological, you know, there's my brain 826 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,319 Speaker 1: and there's my mind. Is my mind even a thing? 827 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: Or is thought just a byproduct of you know, consciousness 828 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: arising from the brain, and is the mind just a 829 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 1: human construct? 830 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 2: Right? 831 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: This whole you know, that's that Socrates know thyself. It's like, yeah, 832 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:43,959 Speaker 1: good luck, good luck. 833 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 2: Here we are two thousand years later, still trying to 834 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,080 Speaker 2: learn about ourselves, and we still have a long way 835 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,360 Speaker 2: to go. But I love these sorts of you know, 836 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 2: philosophical questions where biology starts to blend into these areas 837 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 2: that just kind of blow the mind. And I love 838 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 2: thinking about these sorts of things. And having these conversations 839 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 2: because you know, like we said on the last program, 840 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 2: I'm a lifelong learner. I was just floored when I 841 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,920 Speaker 2: was starting to do research for Pleas to meet Me 842 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 2: that some philosophers and even neuroscientists think that the self 843 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 2: is a total illusion. You know, they don't think that 844 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 2: this really exists. And if you go back and study Buddhism, 845 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,000 Speaker 2: they figured this out more than two thousand years ago. 846 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 2: The entity that we refer to as the self is 847 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,000 Speaker 2: a complete farce. You know, the past and the future 848 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 2: do not exist. The only thing that exists is the moment. 849 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 2: And when they say is that, you know, from the 850 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,279 Speaker 2: scientific perspective, I mean what we now currently view when 851 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 2: we think of the self is that it's not a 852 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:58,439 Speaker 2: static entity. It's actually constantly changing. So instead of having 853 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 2: it to be a thing, we think of the self 854 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 2: as more of a process. It is a biochemical reaction 855 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 2: that is constantly running. Okay, you can compare it to 856 00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 2: maybe like a computer program as well, but what you 857 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 2: call yourself is never the same moment to moment, So 858 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 2: that to me, I think that's just a really mind 859 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,720 Speaker 2: blowing concept. And all sorts of things can accept the self. 860 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 2: You talked about the brain, you know that is obviously 861 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,239 Speaker 2: the seat of the self. No one thinks that the 862 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 2: spleen gives rise to the self, but we certainly know 863 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 2: that the brain gives rise to thought and the mind 864 00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 2: and this ability to make decisions, to deliberate, to think 865 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,760 Speaker 2: about things. But then you get people like the neuroscientist 866 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,360 Speaker 2: Robert Sipalski who writes this book called Determined, which is 867 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,120 Speaker 2: an argument against free will, and his main thesis wonderful book, 868 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 2: by the way, I think everyone should read it. The 869 00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,080 Speaker 2: main thesis is very similar to what I started to 870 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,719 Speaker 2: conclude in the process of writing Please to Meet Me, 871 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 2: is that if you consider free will as like a circle, 872 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,279 Speaker 2: you know, the more you learn about our biology and 873 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,040 Speaker 2: how it's connected to our actions, that circle is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, 874 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 2: way way down. And he takes the position that it's 875 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,320 Speaker 2: there's no such thing as free will at all. Others 876 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:27,359 Speaker 2: take a little more you know, conservative position and say, yeah, 877 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,960 Speaker 2: there's free will, but not as much as we thought, 878 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 2: and yeah, it's a really really interesting concept. And if 879 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,400 Speaker 2: we don't have free will, but we certainly feel like 880 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,960 Speaker 2: we do, what does that mean for jurisprudence and morality 881 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,280 Speaker 2: and things of that nature as well, big, big philosophical questions. 882 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I also think a little bit 883 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:55,240 Speaker 1: about the idea of you know, open mindedness and objectivity. 884 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,560 Speaker 1: One of the questions I ask audience is when I 885 00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: do a corporate gig, when we're opening the door on 886 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,240 Speaker 1: thinking about thinking, you know, metacognition and theory of mind 887 00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: and all of these kind of how do we see 888 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,839 Speaker 1: the world and why do we see the world that way? 889 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,640 Speaker 1: And does it service or sabotage us? Is this idea 890 00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,839 Speaker 1: of open mindedness? And I say, put up your hand 891 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,360 Speaker 1: if you consider yourself to be as a real open 892 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 1: minded and objective And all the hands go up, and 893 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,480 Speaker 1: then I go, well, none of you are, And then 894 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: they all get a little bit pissed off at me. 895 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,520 Speaker 1: And then like, do you have pre existing beliefs and 896 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: ideas and values and thoughts and experiences, and well, then 897 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: you're not objective, Like your thinking is formed or informed 898 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 1: by you know, if not influenced. So the idea of 899 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:48,680 Speaker 1: having this kind of psychological or cognitive clean slate maybe 900 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:54,040 Speaker 1: about something you've never encountered before, or but yeah, it's 901 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,040 Speaker 1: like it feels good to say I'm really open minded, 902 00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: But even me who talks about all this stuff, I 903 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,080 Speaker 1: know I'm not truly open minded because I already have 904 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: pre existing stuff. That is the window through which I 905 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:08,160 Speaker 1: view the world. 906 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,520 Speaker 2: Right, right, and that window through which you view view 907 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 2: to the world is going to dictate or influence how 908 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 2: you act in the future. So yeah, it not only 909 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:23,080 Speaker 2: not only explains how Craig got to be Craig, but 910 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,840 Speaker 2: it explains pretty much what Craig's going to do next, 911 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 2: you know. So, and that gets back to the free 912 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 2: will argument that there's nothing magical or supernatural inside of 913 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 2: us that can give rise to an independent to an 914 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 2: action that's independent of biology. Biology is always going to 915 00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 2: drive the action. The impulse is going to come from neurons. 916 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,719 Speaker 2: You know, nothing supernatural about it. And we know this 917 00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,399 Speaker 2: because if we stimulate neurons, they will produce certain responses. 918 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,759 Speaker 2: If we damage a part of the brain, they can 919 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,239 Speaker 2: produce certain responses. So everything that gives rise to who 920 00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,560 Speaker 2: we are originates in the brain, and everything in the 921 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:12,880 Speaker 2: brain originates from experience, and of course genetics as well. 922 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 2: All that's outside of our control. We can't control our genes. 923 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,840 Speaker 2: We can't control our experiences. You might argue to some 924 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,920 Speaker 2: degree that you can put yourself in position, you know, 925 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:28,080 Speaker 2: to manifest certain experiences. Okay, but you also have to 926 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,440 Speaker 2: realize that you've had experiences that are going to influence 927 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 2: the type of experience you want to have next. And 928 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 2: that's where you get into this vicious cycle of there 929 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,840 Speaker 2: can't possibly be free will m. 930 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,440 Speaker 1: It's that, you know, you spoke about Buddhism before. It's like, 931 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, the observer of your thoughts and being aware 932 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: of like I think awareness, consciousness, if it's possible, starts 933 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,440 Speaker 1: with the recognition of your lack of awareness. You know. 934 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:06,640 Speaker 1: It's like realizing how unaware I am might ironically be 935 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,320 Speaker 1: the start of greater awareness you know where you. 936 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,800 Speaker 2: Can that's pretty deep. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I 937 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 2: like that a lot. And I also just like the 938 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,760 Speaker 2: Buddhists take on how how to live with this sort 939 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,760 Speaker 2: of you know, these these rather earth shattering ideas about 940 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 2: the nature of our self. They use that as a 941 00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,479 Speaker 2: notion to destroy the ego. You know, if you don't 942 00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 2: have a self, you should not have an ego, and 943 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,680 Speaker 2: it eliminates your need for attachments to things, to material things, 944 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,520 Speaker 2: and desires as well. You know, one of the four 945 00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 2: Noble truths is that there is suffering in the world. 946 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,000 Speaker 2: These are the Buddhist noble truths. They're suffering. The origin 947 00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,960 Speaker 2: of that suffering is desire. The third noble truth is, 948 00:58:55,960 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 2: if you quench desire, you can quench suffering, and then, 949 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,360 Speaker 2: you know, the path to enlightenment. Are tools that people 950 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:11,920 Speaker 2: can use in order to control desires and then minimize 951 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,720 Speaker 2: suffering as a result. And what I take away from 952 00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 2: that whole discussion in addition, is that don't just eliminate 953 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,600 Speaker 2: suffering in your own world. You know, we put ourselves 954 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 2: through a lot of misery that we quite frankly don't 955 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 2: need to do, you know, because we're animals and we 956 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 2: evolved in a landscape that makes us concerned about things 957 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,000 Speaker 2: that we don't need to worry about anymore in this 958 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:39,000 Speaker 2: modern world. But our brain is wired, you know, to 959 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,840 Speaker 2: be living in the past. And maybe on the next 960 00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,280 Speaker 2: episode we can talk about those sorts of evolutionary mismasters 961 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,320 Speaker 2: that makes people miserable in this world of plenty that 962 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,640 Speaker 2: we should be enjoying, but most people are too stressed 963 00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,040 Speaker 2: out to enjoy it. But what the what I think 964 00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,160 Speaker 2: we can really take away from the buddhists desire to 965 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,520 Speaker 2: minimize suffering is to extend that to the whole world. 966 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,760 Speaker 2: You know, anytime you can minimize suffering in anybody's life, 967 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,760 Speaker 2: you're making a positive contribution to the world. And scientific 968 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,800 Speaker 2: studies show that when you're altruistic like that, it confers 969 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 2: a multitude of health benefits, which I think is just 970 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:22,200 Speaker 2: a it's a beautiful thing. 971 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I call that having a purpose bigger than yourself, you. 972 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,480 Speaker 2: Know exactly, and science backs it up in terms of 973 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,960 Speaker 2: being good for both physical and mental health. 974 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,360 Speaker 1: All right, So that my last question is a red 975 01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,959 Speaker 1: herring that you are not prepared for. It's not even 976 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: a question. I'm just going to give you a name, 977 01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,400 Speaker 1: and I just want you to riff for one minute 978 01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 1: and tell me your thoughts. Joe Biden, what's going on? 979 01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:56,000 Speaker 2: Joe Biden, presidential candidate for the United States who is 980 01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:01,760 Speaker 2: running against Donald Trump. So, in the past three and 981 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,120 Speaker 2: a half years, I think Joe Biden has done a 982 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:08,080 Speaker 2: really remarkable job helping this country emerge out of the 983 01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:13,600 Speaker 2: wreckage that was the COVID pandemic. We all knew it 984 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 2: was going to be a challenge. Whoever was going to 985 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 2: be at the HELM. So I think he's done a 986 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,640 Speaker 2: really good job. He's certainly been pro science. He's been 987 01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,920 Speaker 2: encouraging a lot of really good economic principles. The economy 988 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,000 Speaker 2: really went south, you know, because of the pandemic, and 989 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:33,520 Speaker 2: that wasn't his fault. That started earlier. But what I 990 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,760 Speaker 2: like about Joe Biden is that he is intellectually curious 991 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,040 Speaker 2: and he's rather humble. He will seek out the opinion 992 01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:45,640 Speaker 2: of experts. Okay, he won't follow his gut or his intuition. 993 01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,120 Speaker 2: He will listen to expert opinion and formulate a policy 994 01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 2: based on that. I think that is one of his 995 01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:56,120 Speaker 2: strong suits, and that's a matter of character that I 996 01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,600 Speaker 2: would prefer to see in leadership. 997 01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,880 Speaker 1: Wow, I love that. I love that he's There's been 998 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,840 Speaker 1: a few question marks about his cognitive capacity at the moment. 999 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,360 Speaker 1: Is that just paople cherry picking moments in time or 1000 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,000 Speaker 1: do you think he's okay or he's in trouble. I mean, 1001 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 1: you don't know, and I don't know, But what are 1002 01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:19,960 Speaker 1: your thoughts? 1003 01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly don't have a connection with them. If 1004 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:29,400 Speaker 2: you look at liberal news channels, you know, you won't 1005 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,640 Speaker 2: see that much. But if you follow a conservative social 1006 01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:36,440 Speaker 2: media outlet or watch their news, all you will see 1007 01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,800 Speaker 2: are his mistakes and screw ups. And of course, whenever 1008 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,760 Speaker 2: you're out there in the public eye, you're going to 1009 01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:47,320 Speaker 2: be making them. But my god, Craig, what you want 1010 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,440 Speaker 2: to see on the conservative channel is a Donald Trump 1011 01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,000 Speaker 2: rally where he just starts rambling worse than I ever 1012 01:02:55,080 --> 01:03:00,600 Speaker 2: do about god knows what. And I can't honestly heads 1013 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:02,680 Speaker 2: or tails out of this. And when I see people 1014 01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,480 Speaker 2: nodding along, I'm like, what the hell is going through 1015 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,880 Speaker 2: your brain right now? This man does not make any 1016 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,640 Speaker 2: sense at all. And that's not media spin, you know. 1017 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,480 Speaker 2: I'm just I'm watching that in context. It doesn't make 1018 01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,480 Speaker 2: any sense. Yeah, and I've listened to Joe Biden, and yes, 1019 01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 2: of course he's going to make some slip ups and mistakes. 1020 01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:26,280 Speaker 2: Any public speaker will, but it's I don't view it 1021 01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,360 Speaker 2: as the magnitude of his competitor. 1022 01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I love chatting with you. It's the 1023 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,560 Speaker 1: easiest gig of my month and maybe the most enjoyable. 1024 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:41,280 Speaker 1: So the book, the book we're talking about today is 1025 01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,360 Speaker 1: called Please to Meet Me jeans Germs and the Curious 1026 01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,480 Speaker 1: Forces that make us who we are doctor Bill Sullivan, PhD. 1027 01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,320 Speaker 1: I've probably asked you this is this on audio? This book? 1028 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 1: Yes it is I and I said I would do 1029 01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 1: this before full disclosure and transparency. I didn't do it. 1030 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 1: As soon as I do. I've got my phone here, 1031 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to jump off and get on Audible and 1032 01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,040 Speaker 1: buy it right now, and I'm going to listen to 1033 01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:11,960 Speaker 1: it between now and our next chat. So I'm I'm 1034 01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:16,400 Speaker 1: very excited actually, So we'll say goodbye fair but once again, 1035 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:18,439 Speaker 1: appreciate you. Thanks so much for your time. 1036 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,280 Speaker 2: Bill, always a pleasure create It's good to see you.