WEBVTT - A collective howl of protest on the Sydney Harbour Bridge

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<v Speaker 1>In spite of pouring rain, government opposition and a failed

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<v Speaker 1>police ban, ninety thousand people massed across the Sydney Harbor

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<v Speaker 1>Bridge yesterday. It was the largest pro Palestinian protest in

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<v Speaker 1>Australia's history. It was a moment of mass demonstration against

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<v Speaker 1>twenty one months of war in Gaza, where tens of

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of civilians, including children, have been killed. Despite warning

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<v Speaker 1>that the march would become dangerous, the protests remained peaceful

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<v Speaker 1>and marked a powerful expression of a shifting public conscience.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM today

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<v Speaker 1>Walkley Award winning journalist and author David Laser while he

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<v Speaker 1>joined the protest not in spite of his Holocaust heritage,

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<v Speaker 1>but because of it. It's Monday, August fourth, David, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for speaking with me. They have of course been regular

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<v Speaker 1>pro Palestinian rallies in cities around Australia since the war began.

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<v Speaker 1>But what did it mean to have a protest take

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<v Speaker 1>over such a significant and iconic landmark as the Sydney

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<v Speaker 1>Harbor Bridge.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's all there. In the word iconic,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that Sydney Harbor Bridge is what the world

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<v Speaker 2>sees every New Year's Eve as we are in the

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<v Speaker 2>new year. So in terms of the representation of a

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<v Speaker 2>collective sentiment on that place at this time, I saw

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<v Speaker 2>a very very very large demonstration in very very wet

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<v Speaker 2>conditions and an extremely civilized, well behaved collective howl of protest.

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<v Speaker 2>I think is a very very powerful moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeh New South Wales estimated that around ninety thousand people attended.

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<v Speaker 1>Organizers said they were expecting fifty. What does that say

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<v Speaker 1>to you about public sentiment at this particular moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think public sentiment is boiling over. I just

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<v Speaker 2>think that it's impossible to see these images of famished,

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<v Speaker 2>desperate people dying of malnutrition, skeletal, particularly children. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there are moments that photographers and journalists capture that galvanize sentiments,

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<v Speaker 2>and it seems to me that the photos that we've

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<v Speaker 2>been seeing recently of starving children has done just that.

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<v Speaker 1>Last week, the New South Wales Premier Chris Min's said

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't support the protests going ahead and didn't want

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<v Speaker 1>Sydney to descend into chaos.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't close down the central artery for a city

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<v Speaker 2>as big as Sydney, even on a short term basis,

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<v Speaker 2>but even if we had a massive heads up to

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<v Speaker 2>do it now.

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<v Speaker 1>The police then took matter to the Supreme Court to

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<v Speaker 1>get a prohibition order over safety fears. They lost because

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<v Speaker 1>the judge ruled that the right to freedom of expression

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately outweighed the safety risk. But what did you think

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<v Speaker 1>when the Premier intervene just try and stop the protest

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<v Speaker 1>in the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I didn't agree with it. I don't think the

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<v Speaker 2>decision by Men's or the New South Wales Police to

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<v Speaker 2>prevent that march going ahead was the right action at

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<v Speaker 2>the right time. It smelt of politics and it was

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<v Speaker 2>a denial of a boiling public grievance. So to say

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<v Speaker 2>I'll look take another route for your march, do it

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<v Speaker 2>somewhere else, I mean, it's just not going to cut it.

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<v Speaker 2>Not while millions of Palestinians are facing death from starvation

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<v Speaker 2>or shelling from Israeli forces or malnutrition. I mean, there

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<v Speaker 2>is a people on the steering into the abyss, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think we need to be able to release the

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<v Speaker 2>valve when public sentiment gets to this point in order

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<v Speaker 2>for people to come together as a kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>common humanity in a moral community and express themselves together.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think he got that wrong. I do think

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<v Speaker 2>what we're seeing right now is we are asking ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>what has happened to our humanity that we could allow

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<v Speaker 2>this to be proceeding the way it is. And I, certainly,

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<v Speaker 2>as a Jewish Man, do not accept this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>it is anti Semitic to protest vehemently about the treatment

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<v Speaker 2>of the Netnyahuu government against the Palestinians. And so we

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<v Speaker 2>need to get clearer about definitions about how we use words.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't even see this as a war right now.

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<v Speaker 2>I see this as a slaughter, because a war suggests

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<v Speaker 2>that you've got two equal sides, or more or less

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<v Speaker 2>equal sides fighting each other. This is just mass murder.

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<v Speaker 1>David, you've recently written that you supported this protest not

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<v Speaker 1>in spite of your Holocaust heritage, but because of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me about how your heritage informs your

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<v Speaker 1>position during this time.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, my father was born in Germany. It was eight

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<v Speaker 2>years old when Hitler came to power and fled the

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<v Speaker 2>Nazis in nineteen thirty nine, a few months before World

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<v Speaker 2>War two began, was shunned at school, was expelled from

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<v Speaker 2>school for being Jewish, was frog march through the streets

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<v Speaker 2>of Coburg in the Old East Germany as a Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>boy and pelted with stones and rotten fruit along with

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<v Speaker 2>his peers from this Jewish boarding school. So he fled

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<v Speaker 2>Germany along with my grandfather and my step grandmother. And

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<v Speaker 2>on my mother's side, Latvian Jewish forty one relatives executed

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<v Speaker 2>in the forest outside of Riga, the capital of Latvia,

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<v Speaker 2>the Rumbula forest, or forced to dig their own graves

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<v Speaker 2>and then shot in the back. And that's been burnished

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<v Speaker 2>in my heart and soul and mind since I was

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<v Speaker 2>a young boy growing up. I think the fact of

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<v Speaker 2>that Jewish background informed my intellectual search. Well, how did

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<v Speaker 2>the people who survived the ovens survived the gas chambers

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<v Speaker 2>of the most sophisticated extermination campaign in modern history? How

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<v Speaker 2>did the survivors of that infamy become the persecutors of

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<v Speaker 2>another people? And I think you know Gabor Marte, you

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<v Speaker 2>know the famous psychotherapist. He talks a lot about trauma

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<v Speaker 2>and how trauma begets trauma, violence begets violence. So I

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<v Speaker 2>have for the past forty to forty five five years

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<v Speaker 2>studied the Middle East. Gone there several times lived in

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<v Speaker 2>Jerusalem to try and work out the nature of this

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<v Speaker 2>conflict that sits very close at the center of what's

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<v Speaker 2>informed my thinking and my impulses on.

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<v Speaker 1>This After the break, will this be a tipping point?

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<v Speaker 1>You've been outspoken about what's been occurring in Gaza for

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<v Speaker 1>a long time now. What has been the personal cost

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<v Speaker 1>of that to you, David?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, nothing like the personal cost of being a Palestinian

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<v Speaker 2>in Gaza, and nothing like the cost of being a

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian in the West Bank, where Jewish settlers have been

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<v Speaker 2>led off the leash by the net Yahoo government. This

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<v Speaker 2>is a very, very, very traumatic moment for Jewish people.

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<v Speaker 2>So the quick answer to your question, Daniel is I've

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<v Speaker 2>lost friends. I think there are people who just don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to have anything to do with me now because

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<v Speaker 2>they see me as having portrayed the tribe made the

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish people less safe. I take the view that unless

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish people are being seen to speak out on this issue,

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<v Speaker 2>then it would be understandable, if not inevitable, that the

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<v Speaker 2>majority of people would take the view that all Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>people are supporting what the State of Israel is doing

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<v Speaker 2>to the people of Gaza. And I think it's absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>urgent that there is seen to be which there is

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<v Speaker 2>a plurality of voices within the Jewish community who have

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<v Speaker 2>different views on this horrendous, never ending conflict. I think

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<v Speaker 2>what Nednyahu has done is two things. The first and

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<v Speaker 2>most important is he's brought a catastrophe down on the

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<v Speaker 2>heads of the Palestinian people. And he has committed mass

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<v Speaker 2>murder as an act of revenge for the horrors of

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<v Speaker 2>October seven. And in the process he has made Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>people less safe. And he has brought a moral catastrophe

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<v Speaker 2>down on all Jewish people. And we are at odds

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<v Speaker 2>with each other. The Jewish community is divided in a

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<v Speaker 2>way that I've never seen before in my lifetime. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm nearly seventy, you know, So the fact that I

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<v Speaker 2>may fall out with certain friends, I think there's been

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<v Speaker 2>fallings out every which way across the board.

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<v Speaker 1>Day the weather. We're at a political tipping point kind

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<v Speaker 1>of remains to be seen. But Anthony Albernezi has joined

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<v Speaker 1>many other countries, including the UK, Canada and France, in

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<v Speaker 1>speaking about how to recognize a Palestinian state and how

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<v Speaker 1>it would actually practically be implemented. What have you made

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<v Speaker 1>of Australian a government's approach to this in recent weeks.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know why he's dragging his feet on this.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I personally think that the declarations by France

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<v Speaker 2>and Britain and Canada that they'll recognize a Palestinian state.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels to me like a platitude. I would say,

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<v Speaker 2>when you start saying, like Slovenia did, we are going

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<v Speaker 2>to stop all shipment of arms to Israel, then I

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<v Speaker 2>think you're getting serious. I mean, to me, the two

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<v Speaker 2>state solution is kind of dead and buried. Politicians talk

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<v Speaker 2>about the two state solution all the time, but a

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<v Speaker 2>two state solution presupposes that the Palasins have actually land

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<v Speaker 2>to set up a state of their own. Well, part

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<v Speaker 2>of that land, Gaza, is all rubble, and the other

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<v Speaker 2>part of it the West Bank. There's seven hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>fifty to eight hundred thousand Jewish settlers in the West

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<v Speaker 2>Bank and East Jerusalem included, who are torching Palestinian villagers,

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<v Speaker 2>who are running amok. And how on earth would Israel

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<v Speaker 2>remove seven hundred and fifty thousand Jewish settlers in order

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<v Speaker 2>to make way for a Palestinian state. So very nice

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<v Speaker 2>for Makron Karnei and Code to actually call for a

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian state. I think Albanese should do so too. I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's all sorts of legal and economic implications that

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<v Speaker 2>flow from the recognition of a Palestinian national entity and

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<v Speaker 2>what Israel is doing and the consequences for Israel by

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<v Speaker 2>doing what it's doing to a people who have a

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<v Speaker 2>state of their own recognized by the United Nations, as

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<v Speaker 2>opposed to a dispossessed people. But I would like to

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<v Speaker 2>see something more than that. I would like to see

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<v Speaker 2>government saying we're not sending arms or we will. Actually

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<v Speaker 2>we've been prevaricating about boycotting or sanctioning Israel, but we

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<v Speaker 2>cannot sit by now and in all good conscience watch

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<v Speaker 2>what Israel is doing to these people and not respond.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's what the demonstration on the Harbor

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<v Speaker 2>Bridge was all about, this cry from the heart of

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<v Speaker 2>the people of Sydney that enough is enough.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, David, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me, Daniel.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Anthony Albernezi has delivered the keynote

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<v Speaker 1>address at the Garma Festival in northeast arnham Land over

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<v Speaker 1>the weekend. Outlining a new plan for a first nation's

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<v Speaker 1>economic partnership between the government and First Nations people. Any

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<v Speaker 1>speech to Prime Minister also acknowledged the work of the

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<v Speaker 1>europe Justice Commission, the first truth telling process in the country.

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<v Speaker 1>His comments have led some to speculate whether a national

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<v Speaker 1>truth telling process could be on the table. We'll have

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<v Speaker 1>more on that tomorrow. And the Secretary of the Australian

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<v Speaker 1>Council of Trade Unions says it's time to bite the

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<v Speaker 1>bullet on negative gearing reform. Sally McManus told the ABC

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<v Speaker 1>over the weekend she'll be calling for an overhaul or

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<v Speaker 1>the tax break at the government's Productivity round table this month.

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<v Speaker 1>The ACTU will argue negative gearing should be limited to

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<v Speaker 1>one investment property. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening.