1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Crooks can adopt the latest AI tech, the latest app, 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: the latest phone very quickly. Law enforcement can't do that. 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: They have to go through red tape procurement processes like 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: a list goes on. 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: And I've seen it firsthand. The crime and corruption is efficient. Unfortunately, 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: that is often in gangs. 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: Yes, it's always been like the biking thing is they 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: join the club because they want to feel. 9 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: Like they belong. 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: They get the tattoo, they get the uniform. 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule. This is life in crimes and we 12 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: are again talking to David Bartlett, a most remarkable form 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: of policeman who's worked with the FBI and our national 14 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: and state police forces in many roles and finally is 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: in a position where we can talk about it. Thank you, David, 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me now. David. Last week you talked 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: about your early years in the job working for the 18 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: Victoria Police, keeping an eye on cartels and following them 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: honey and all that good stuff. And I think at 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: some point you also found yourself working at the Australian 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: Crime Commission. 22 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: So in twenty sixteen, the Australian Crime Commission, when it 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: was that small one hundred and eighty staff kind of 24 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: organization merged with an agenty called krim Track. Crim Track 25 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: managers our national fingerprint system, national DNA system, a few 26 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: other national policing systems, basically an IT shop really for police. 27 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: It was always very kind of behind the scenes. For 28 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: whatever reason, the federal government merged these two organizations, and 29 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: it was a real shock at the time because we 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: had this small one hundred and eighty staff team that 31 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: was very operational merged with a tech house like a 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: tech shop with about another thousand staff. Very strange thing 33 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: a merger to go through. But we then moved into 34 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: more of an intelligence tech agency as opposed to a 35 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 1: rough and ready investigators and detectives running around causing trouble 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: like we used to to being a bit more sophisticated, 37 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: a bit more linked into national security, into the likes 38 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: of some of those agencies, federal agencies getting access to them. 39 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: So you go from sort of street investigators, yeah, types 40 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: two being more sophisticated. I used to describe it as 41 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 2: room boys. Yeah. I used to describe it. 42 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: As a kind of a mix between the FBI and 43 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: the CIA in a way a way, so we had 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: like the text smarts of say the CIA and we 45 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: had a bit more of the operational street smarts of 46 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: the FBI and maybe some local law enforcement. It was 47 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: a really, really good agency, and we would build up 48 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: intel packages to then hand to the OVP, your hand 49 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: to vic Pole. So we would often collect information that 50 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: we couldn't declare where we got it from and then 51 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: give it to the local police to action. So there's 52 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: a lot of things that you see on the TV 53 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: in the news that it just seems like it was 54 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: just just happened, just happened, and you never really know 55 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: how it got there. And often then sometimes that does happen. 56 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: But you know the way that the organizations arranged and 57 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: the processes. 58 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: Are that we keep a very discreet way of doing things. 59 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 2: Suddenly there's a LAE today arrested and they think where 60 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: did they came from? 61 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: Somewhere came from somewhere, And back to my original point 62 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: about human sources, I think outside of the agency thing, 63 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: the weak link and a lot of crime is the 64 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: human element. 65 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,839 Speaker 2: It does make you think that you know, the more 66 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: you see crooks, and you've seen a lot more of 67 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,839 Speaker 2: them than the rest of us, but they will sell 68 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: each other out. There is always a point at which 69 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: they will probably for most of them anyway, whereas your 70 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: own dear old maiden aren't. The practicing method is she 71 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: will not sell you out because she's made of sterner stuff. 72 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: There's a difference. But crooks will ultimately betray each other 73 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: because they're crooks. They will, and they're dishonest and they're selfish, 74 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: so they don't have any higher purpose. So it seems 75 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: to me the most risky did the people that pose 76 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: the most threatened some ways of those who don't have 77 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: underwhel connect Yeah, you haven't got any leverage over them, 78 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: and no one knows anything about them because they's rubbing 79 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: shoulders with other crooks. That yeah, No, he was spot on. 80 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: I think if you were going to create a criminal enterprise, 81 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: you try to keep it to one one person, yourself 82 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: if you could. But unfortunately, things like the money laundering operations, 83 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: the drug importing at all needs people at different times, 84 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: and that's a risk every single person you're introduced to 85 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: that process or that. Yeah, that enterprise is a risk, 86 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: and that's why I guess the cartels do lead with 87 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: fear because they are comfortable bringing someone in because that 88 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: person knows if they do step. 89 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: Out of line, problems. 90 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know that's something in our tech world now, 91 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: where like we're talking about the technology is the gap 92 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: between the capabilities of even the public service in general, 93 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: not just police, the public service in general and what's 94 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: happening in the private sector that I describe it as 95 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: a chasm of two cliffs just getting further and further 96 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: apart in terms of how quickly the public sector, police, 97 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: the government can adopt new technology versus the private sector 98 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: and by extension crooks. Crooks can adopt the latest AI tech, 99 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: the latest app, the latest phone very quickly. Law enforcement 100 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: can't do that. They have to go through red tape 101 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: procurement processes like a list goes on. 102 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: And I've seen it firsthand. The crime and corruption is efficient, 103 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: yeah in that sense, Yeah, highly highly efficient, agile, well funded. 104 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: They don't hold steering committees to decide how to spend money. 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: They just do what they need to do to keep 106 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: the wheels turning. They've got really good executive high right, 107 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: very efficient, very efficient and on lean, not too many 108 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: layers of management. But to be honest, it really it 109 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: worries me because we're seeing that at a rate of 110 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: knots like we've never seen before with the rise of 111 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: AI in terms of the tools that are going to 112 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: be available to criminal enterprises now. And I don't know 113 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: what the government can do about it, but the gap 114 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: is widening faster than it ever has in my career. 115 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh so we're not sitting here saying all the 116 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 2: good gears giving the good guys the advantage over the 117 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: bad guys. We're saying the reverse, meaning you know, technology. 118 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: Technology is opted faster by the bad guys by far. 119 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: Is that right? 120 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: Hugely, hugely, Yeah, because if they need to do something, 121 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: they will just go out and buy the latest tech. 122 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: But for police to integrate, and we've seen this recently 123 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: with Mike Bush commenting in Victoria at least, talking about 124 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: how we are here in Melbourne ten to fifteen years 125 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: behind other law enforcement agencies. So if we're ten to 126 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: fifteen years behind other law enforcement agencies, were probably twenty 127 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: years or twenty five years behind the crime or the 128 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: criminals that they're trying to catch. Really unfortunately, you've got 129 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: a police force here in Melbourne that still sends things 130 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: around in Manila folders. I mean, we can't be operating 131 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: like that in twenty twenty five. You're not going to 132 00:06:54,600 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: get the Colombian cartel exchanging Manila folders between. There needs 133 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: to be serious money spent on tech and changing the 134 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: way they think about tech. And the way I talk 135 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: about that is the traditional means is the government has 136 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: an idea, they put out a tender, request for tender, 137 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: It goes to the market, the market sends them back 138 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: three quotes. 139 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: They go through this whole procurement process that takes nine months. 140 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: Then they get a system that doesn't work. 141 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: Then they spend two hundred million and get a system 142 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't work. That whole slow turning core has to change. 143 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: They need to be more open to what I consider 144 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: public private partnerships and pilots and proof of concepts in 145 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: a safe way, of course, but start experimenting with tech 146 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't need to come through a big four integrator 147 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: like a big consulting company or big tech. Start experimenting. 148 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: That was something the Crime Commission was really good at. 149 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: When we were tiny, one hundred and eighty staff. We 150 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: were using some great techs. We didn't have to go 151 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: through all these procurement headaches. So if we heard of 152 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: some really amazing product that was in the market somewhere 153 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: in the world, we could just approach the vendor and say, hey, 154 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: can we just try that for six months and see 155 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: how it goes. But at least here in Victoria, and 156 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that the other states are very similar, 157 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: that kind of agility just doesn't exist. 158 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: And do you say any realism work shouldn't or couldn't. 159 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: Obviously, law enforcement data is highly sensitive and there has 160 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: to be a whole lot of security layers and controls 161 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: around that. That's one thing. But again, with the rise 162 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: of AI and tech, there are certainly there are ways 163 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: now to make that process more efficient. I think Victoria 164 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: police is under a lot of resource strain at the moment, 165 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: in particularly financially, so the willingness to kind of start 166 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: experimenting where they could lose money is probably not there. 167 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: That risk appetite is probably not there in Victoria. And 168 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: now obviously our state government here is in a lot 169 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: of debts, so again there's probably not a lot of 170 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: appetite to start experimenting. But I think if there's a will, 171 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: there's a way, and I think the will as we're 172 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: seeing here in Victoria, I think we need to start 173 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: seeing more of that. With our crime rate and the 174 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: general fear in the commit I think something has to 175 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: give in terms of that and technology, I guarantee you 176 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: will play a huge part in solving the crime issues 177 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: that we're facing at the moment. Well, the reason I 178 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: say that is that I recently looked into the crime 179 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: closure rates. So about sixty percent of crimes in Australia 180 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: go unsolved? 181 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah? It is just from shop lifting 182 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: from anything? Yeah? Anything? 183 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: So is it just over two million offenses every year 184 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: and just over a million go unsolved. But what's interesting 185 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: is in more regional areas as a higher solve rate. 186 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: And I think that's because the community know each other, 187 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: There's less people, there's less scale of crime, so the 188 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: police have got time to investigate it. The systems work, 189 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: the it systems work at that level. The tools that 190 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: police have got available to them from a tech perspective 191 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: work at that level. But when you go closer to 192 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: Metro Melbourne, and I use Melbourne again as an example, 193 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: the sheer scale of crime, the systems aren't set up 194 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: to drink from a fire hose. Basically is what is 195 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: happening in Victoria? Oh right, So you've got these poor 196 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: cops that if they got sent out to Banella or 197 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: Gippsland or something like that. They could probably handle the 198 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: crime reports that are coming in with the systems they've got, 199 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: but the sheer scale of reports flooding their desk every day, 200 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: they can't. It's literally drinking from a fire hose. And 201 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: the answer to that isn't more cops. 202 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: It's fixing the systems. Because I mean, Victoria has twenty 203 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: thousand plus. It doesn't seem to me long ago, mind you, 204 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: it is a fee while ago that it was fewer 205 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 2: than ten thousand. Yeah, you know, we used to talk 206 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: about seven, eight, nine, you know, and then next thing 207 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: it's twenty it's twenty one. And yet the is shorthanded now. 208 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: I guess part of the reason might be occupational health 209 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: and safety, and rightly so they want to work two up, 210 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: not one up. Yeah, they don't do that anymore. Yeah, 211 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: that straightaway halves the number of different parts of the world, 212 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: doesn't it. Yep, man, No, definitely to be one coup 213 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 2: of driving around the district. 214 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: I think the hardest thing for Victoria Police, they have 215 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: struggled with this for years, is to accurately predict and 216 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: plan for where they need police and when. Because of 217 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: the unpredictable nature of crime, it's very difficult to do that. 218 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: And a few years ago the Auditor's Office here in 219 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: Melbourne did a report into what Victoria Police calls the 220 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: staffing allocation model. Basically, Okay, we give you five hundred 221 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: more cops, where are you going to put them? And 222 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: this Auditor's report was fairly scathing on Victoria Police at 223 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: the time about their lack of rationale behind where they 224 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: would send the troops. So I think there's still a 225 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: lot of work there in Victoria. There's a lot of 226 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: recommendations that came out of that. I'm sure Vic Pohl 227 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: is still looking at them. But my worry is that, 228 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, they will ask for four hundred more cops 229 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: on the street, but you're putting four hundred more cops 230 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: into a potentially broken system. 231 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: In recent time, off and say to people are sort 232 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 2: of a blanket assertion if a crime is serious enough, 233 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: they had to warrant the forces full attention, such as 234 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: very serious murders, murders that catch attention, you know, such 235 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: as or a bunker such as Silk and Miller. You know, 236 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: we police have been killed that the technological equipment is 237 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 2: available now that if they apply themselves for long enough, 238 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: they will crack it. Because all of us live in 239 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: this modern fish bowl where there are cameras, and there 240 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: are electronic surveillance, and there's dash cams and there's all 241 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: the things that it's out there somewhere, if only they 242 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: can be bothered going through one million hours of footage, 243 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: footage and funk calls or wherever it might be exactly. 244 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons I set up the 245 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: Safer Places network back in March, because what I realized 246 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: was there are about twenty million CCTV cameras currently in 247 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: operation just in Australia. 248 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: Twenty million yep. 249 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: It's about one in five to one in four homes 250 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: of gone two to three cameras. And then you've got 251 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: all the government cameras, trains, trams, buses, activity centers, shopping strips, 252 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: goes on, commercial cameras, all these calls, all those companies 253 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: have all got camerasp And what I discovered earlier this 254 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: year was that police were still mostly unaware of where 255 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: those cameras were, and if they knew there were cameras there, 256 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: they didn't know who to contact. 257 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: Right. So you've said this leads us to what you're 258 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 2: up to? Yes, what are you up to? Yeah, that's 259 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: what I'm up to. 260 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm up to try to help police find footage that 261 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: often goes gets lost and never gets never sees a 262 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: lot of day. And what I mean by that is, 263 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: for example, if a stabbing or home invasion happens in 264 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: a residential street, the police will turn up and they 265 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: will physically walk up and down that street looking for cameras. 266 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 2: There's one, there's one, there's no one home. Oh, better 267 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: go and get a coffee. Yeah. 268 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: They slip a business card into the door and they 269 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: say please call the Pran police station, which great. So 270 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: if that person's is in Europe having a cocktail on 271 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: a Greek island somewhere, that's out of business. 272 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 2: Yep. 273 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: And I've spoken to journalists about this well, and journalists 274 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: do the same thing looking for cameras. Yes, so they 275 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: the journals that I've spoken to. So they slip their 276 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: card next to the police card, and they often see 277 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: multiple cards looking into someone's door. Okay, So I thought, well, 278 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: why are we still doing that? In twenty twenty five, 279 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: We've got twenty million cameras around Australia that are all 280 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: protecting their own piece of the patch. How can they 281 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: be used at scale to help everybody? Yeah, So in 282 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: March I set up the Safer Places Network, And essentially 283 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: it's just a national network, a voluntary network of people 284 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: putting their hand up and saying I've got a camera 285 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: if you need it. Right, So, it can be a 286 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: small business, it can be a large corporation, it can 287 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: be a local local house. 288 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: You're hooking them together, You're making a herd of cameras. 289 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: Yes, but I'm not connecting to them technically. So I'm 290 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: just putting a little flag on that address to go, 291 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: there's a camera there if you need it. I'm not 292 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: technically streaming the footage. I'm not asking them for footage. 293 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: But even just police knowing that there's a camera there 294 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: will save them so much time. And I've spoken to 295 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: major crime detectives and managers that say they spend thousands 296 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: and thousands and thousands of hours looking for cameras and 297 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: then managing the. 298 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: Footage on top of that. 299 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: So, for example, the synagogue arson attack that we saw recently, 300 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: they collected footage from fourteen hundred locations. And what I 301 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: hear from these detectives is often they will have bucket 302 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: loads of USB sticks from hundreds of locations they've had 303 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: to collect. But to find all those locations they've had 304 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: to walk the streets and look for cameras and. 305 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: Then had to find the owner. 306 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: So my system is just a website where people can 307 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: sign up and register for free. 308 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: It's voluntary. 309 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: You can manage your data, you can withdraw it deleted 310 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: later if you want to do that. 311 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: I've been pretty amazed at the apart from mutual benefit, 312 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: of course, but to actually persuade any of us to 313 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: go to the trouble of doing. 314 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: This, it's interesting question. I've been working with Neighborhood Watch 315 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: Victoria Oh and I've been to a lot of community 316 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: events talking about it. Talking about privacies is the number 317 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: one thing that people often ask, what datay is story? 318 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: And can you connect to my cameras? When I recently 319 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: did the Steve Price interview, you know, Steve said the 320 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: same thing is like, how do I know you can't 321 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: connect to my cameras. I'm like, well, I'm not asking 322 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: for passwords and asking for any technical information. We've had 323 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: about four hundred local residents here in Melbourne sign up 324 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: in the last couple of months. 325 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: So what you're promoting is that people just tell a 326 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: central authority that they have a camera and it's there 327 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: to be used if there's a crime. Yeah. 328 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: So the way the system works is police and I've 329 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: got about twelve police using at the moment. If there's 330 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: an incident, they bring up a map like a Google map, 331 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: and they just put a circle around where it happened 332 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: and all the dots appear. 333 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: They go for smith straight there's a camera. 334 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: And my system can send out SMSs to all of 335 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: them immediately. Okay, so it can mobilize away, say one 336 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: hundred people immediately to start looking at the cameras to 337 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: make sure nothing gets deleted. 338 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: Through Is that through message media? 339 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: That it's just an SMS system called Twilio. Yeah, it's 340 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: just some of the tech. And this is kind of 341 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: the tech and I'm talking about that kind of tech 342 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: doesn't really exist in vic Poele, But for us in 343 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: the private sector, we can do some pretty amazing stuff. 344 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: Just send a whole hippot. 345 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we can even send phone calls as well. 346 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: So if people opt in to receive urgent phone calls, 347 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: we've got a little message that says hi this is 348 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: a message from the Safer Places Network. Victoria Police urgently 349 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: require your assistance, and you can actually call their phone. 350 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: So if it's two am in the morning there's a 351 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: murder out in the street, we can actually call their 352 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: phone twice in ten minutes wake them up. This is 353 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: if they've opted in for that, if they really want 354 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: to be that cooperative, and they can actually wake them 355 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: up and they can then get notified. 356 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, that's interesting. Tell me about its birth. 357 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: The short version of it. 358 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: I was speaking to my insurance provider and going through 359 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: their reevaluation of all my security at my house, and 360 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: I told them that it's covered in security cameras and 361 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: could I get a discount and they said, oh, we 362 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: don't consider cameras a preventative crime measure, so we're not 363 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,959 Speaker 1: going to give you a discount. And I thought, how 364 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: do we turn cameras from being an after the fact 365 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: investigative avenue to being something that Brooks will actually see 366 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: a camera and think there's a camera there, I'm not 367 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: going to break into this house. We see it sometimes 368 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: in the media where a cook's sees a camera they'll 369 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: turn around and run sometimes, but the brazenness of what 370 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: we're seeing here. 371 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: In Melbourne at the moment is quite phenomenal. 372 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: So what I'm trying to do is build this network 373 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: where if they know that camera is connected to our network, 374 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: they know police can access that footage in minutes yep. 375 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: So their little getaway plan from jumping back in their 376 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: stolen car and racing down at a local sports club 377 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: to set their car on fire. Hopefully, with this system 378 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: taking hold, which it's starting to now, they'll see cameras 379 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: and go, oh, maybe I'll reconsider breaking into this house 380 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: because the cops might come down the street and grab me. 381 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: So I'm turning CCTV into preventative measure. 382 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 2: Right and does that interest the insurers? It will? It will? 383 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: It will? That strikes me as a very good thing. 384 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: I have a meeting with a large one next week, 385 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: and that's what's interesting this is I'm creating a lot 386 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: of interest in different sectors. For example, I've just got 387 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: access to fifteen hundred very very high resolution construction security cameras. 388 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: So these are the cameras I see on poles where 389 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: there's a house being built, there's a little camera on 390 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: a pole. I've just got access to fifteen hundred of 391 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: those across Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane the police can now 392 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: actually get into remotely, so almost like a self service model, 393 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: and they're all over the urban growth areas of those cities. 394 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: So I'm opening up not just the mums and dad houses, 395 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: I'm opening up commercial opportunities to coordinate CCTV at a 396 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: national level. So after I leave you here today, I'm 397 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: jumping on a plane and going to Canberra because I'm 398 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: briefing my old workplace, the ACIC, tomorrow, and I'm also 399 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: briefing the AFP tomorrow because on this platform, on this. 400 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: Platform, well this is wonderful stuff. When did you get 401 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: this idea? That's funny story. But I was very sick. 402 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: I was in London back in February and I was 403 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: sitting in the tape twenty five Yes, yeah, just this 404 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: year sitting. I was very sick. And I went to 405 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: the Tape Modern Museum in London and I was just 406 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: sitting there, just feeling very sorry for myself, and I 407 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: just started using chat JIRBT again AI, using AI to 408 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: blend my passion of law enforcement and tech community service, 409 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: and I thought what can I do? And I basically 410 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: just started ide eating different ideas and concepts through AI 411 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: and it came up with this idea basically, and I 412 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: kicked it off, started making calls. I rang a major 413 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: crime superintendent at Victoria Police that I've known for years. 414 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: Spoke to her and I said, would this help you? 415 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: And she said, oh my god, yes. I said, okay. 416 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: I rang Bambi, who's the head of neighborhood Watch here 417 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: in Victoria. Bambi good. And I said, Bambi, do you 418 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: want to get behind this? She goes, absolutely, We're behind you. 419 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: So I made just some strategic calls initially and realized 420 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: I'm probably onto something and instant appeal, instant appeal, and 421 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: I've been a developer for thirty years in my spare time. 422 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: I did that at UNI and I did a business, 423 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: started business and I was sixteen. 424 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: What was the business you started at sixteen? 425 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: It was called Superior Business Solutions. Oh, great name, I thought. 426 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: And I even had an old toy to Carola when 427 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 1: I turned eighteen, and I had one of those stickers 428 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: across the back windscreen saying so career business solutions and 429 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: have phone number. Oh that was amazing. I was so 430 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: proud of that. But yeah, I was. I was self 431 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: taught web developers. That would have been nineteen ninety seven, 432 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. And my brother was a market just 433 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: doing marketing at UNI and we started the business together. 434 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: And I was building websites in high school and I 435 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: went to UNI, built more websites through UNI, and then. 436 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: All the tech helped me through the police as well. Yeah, 437 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: of course. So this new platform that we've built, I've 438 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 2: built it all myself. This is it's a great idea. 439 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's gaining a lot of traction and interest. 440 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: I had dinner last night with the CEO of Crime 441 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: Stoppers South Australia, meeting the CEO of Crime Stoppers New 442 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: South Wales again tomorrow. It's gaining a lot of interest. 443 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: Co oping. I mean we've all watched for decades, two 444 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 2: decades at least, the British crime shows where they oh, 445 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: now he's now walking down pell Mellon around there. The 446 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: next camera's got him getting into a blue Jaguar. And 447 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: you know this idea that London's bristling with tens of 448 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 2: thousands of cameras, which it does, which absolutely is probably 449 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: largely as a result of the IRA I suggest, and 450 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 2: that's that sort of please show reality. But you've been 451 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 2: able to conjure up that sort of sense of security 452 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 2: or insecurity for crooks by using privately owned cameras. Correct. 453 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: Governments don't have to put in millions of them. 454 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: No, they don't, and if they did, it would probably 455 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: be the tune of ten billion dollars. So we're sitting 456 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: on ten billion dollars worth of infrastructure that's not being used. 457 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: The hardest part, though, is, like you said, is explaining 458 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: the concept, getting people to voluntarily register so it's not mandated, 459 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: and then managing the platform so the platform itself is built, 460 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: and not saying this at dinner last night. The platform 461 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: itself is built. All my time now is in meetings, 462 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: reparing briefing notes, making phone calls, connecting people that have 463 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: never been connected before. 464 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: What is the incentive for people, householders and shops and 465 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: so on business to put their hand up and say 466 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: I want to be part of it? Is there a 467 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: way to incentivize it. 468 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: My original business plan was that insurance companies would come 469 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: on board and be able to offer a discounted premium 470 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: if they were part of the network. That is proving 471 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: difficult until we've probably got a more trusted reputation. That's 472 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: going to take a bit longer. I think what I'm 473 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: starting to see is the community is, especially here in Melbourne, 474 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: the community is looking for ideas to help. They know 475 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: police are struggling, they know that our crime rates going 476 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: through the roof. They want to contribute to something that 477 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: is constructive, peaceful. It's not vigilantism, it's not some of 478 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: the chaos we see on Facebook. Like I think a 479 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: lot of people are looking for ways to contribute and 480 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: be part of something that makes a difference. Yeah, and 481 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 1: it helps the police, and ultimately it will catch more 482 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: crooks or at least a turkis. 483 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: Now. There will be opponents who have a particular political bent, 484 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: you know, sort of libertarianism and civil rights and all that. 485 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: I haven't seen as much of that as I would 486 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: have thought. I would have thought more of that. But 487 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 2: I guess we're not setting it up. No, we're not 488 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: hooking in it. It exists. I'm just coordinating it. It's painless. Yeah, 489 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: it's painless. I'm on my own and it's painful and enough. 490 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: But this is just a very benevolent big brother, isn't it. Yeah? Exactly. 491 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not actually advocating for more cameras, I'm advocating 492 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: for making better use of the ones that we've spent 493 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: money on already. So I mean, I've probably spent a 494 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: couple of grand. 495 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: On cameras at my house. 496 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't I want them to help my 497 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: neighbor or help someone else in my street. So that's 498 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: the angle we're going for. And I spoke recently at 499 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: the Retail Crime Conference in Melbourne and the case study 500 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: I used for that was the twenty twelve murder of 501 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: Jill Marry, which is probably baked into a lot of 502 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: people's memory here in Melbourne. And the reason I bring 503 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: that up is when she went missing, and it was 504 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: the twenty second of September. The footage for that, the 505 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: famous footage that everyone remembers from inside this small shop, 506 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: the boutique, the Duchess Boutique on Sydney Road. That footage 507 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: took eighty f five hours to get into the hands 508 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: of police. Yeah, that's three days. And why did it 509 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: take three days? That's a very good point, and that 510 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: gave him the offender I'm going to name, gave the 511 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: offender time to leave her behind, which I didn't really 512 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: realize at the time he actually murdered her in the 513 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: lame way, left her body there, went home, came back 514 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: with his car, collected her body hours later, and then 515 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: drove her up to Gisbon and buried her. But that 516 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: whole delay. If this system had been in place that night, 517 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: the watchhouse keeper where that missing person report first came 518 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: in could have done a search because her husband knew 519 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: that she was close to home, so he knew that 520 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: Jill was about three hundred meters from home because he'd 521 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: just been on the phone to work, So he could 522 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: have done a search around the house using my platform 523 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: of what's two hundred meters around exactly. The Dutchess boutique 524 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: could have come up. The person that the Dutchess boutique 525 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: is Belinda Smith. Here's a mobile number, straight on the 526 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: phone to Blinda, can I see you? Which something serious 527 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: has potentially happened. 528 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: So let's rewrite history a little bit here. If someone 529 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: like Jilma had been attacked that night, had left wounded 530 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: and bleeding but alive, and the crook has departed, departed, 531 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 2: and then she's been you know, she's missing. Her husband 532 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: could say she's missing, but she was only a few 533 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 2: hundred yards away conceivably could save her life, absolutely find 534 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: her and save her life. 535 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: You know, I spoke to someone recently. The offender of 536 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: that particular murder was a serial sex offender and he 537 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: was a large for nearly a week. So we were 538 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: just lucky as a community that he didn't reoffend. Oh yeah, 539 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: So in terms of yes, you would have saved her life, 540 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: he could have gone on to murder three more people 541 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: in that weekly, do. 542 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 2: You know what I mean. 543 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: So there's all these benefits that come from that. And 544 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that watch house keeper could have 545 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: got that footage very quickly and potentially even shown a 546 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: still of the footage to the husband and go on, 547 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: does this look like Jill? And they would have put 548 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 1: her at a time and a place very quickly. They 549 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: would have been able to focus that search very quickly. 550 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating thing. Yeah, there's so many case studies 551 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 2: like that, you know, the lost opportunities. This has nothing 552 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: to do with what you do, but I'm going to 553 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: ask or a question to you. Anyway to go from 554 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: the modern sci fi world that you're inhabitings so well 555 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: to a very old technique is it not remarkable that 556 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: Australian police forces and some other police forces do not 557 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 2: use highly trained tracker dogs, sniffer dogs, trail dogs. They 558 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 2: call them as opposed to normal police dogs, which are 559 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: essentially attack dogs. I'm talking about trained hounds that are very, 560 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: very good. The number of cases just in recent times 561 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 2: where they would have could have or would have could 562 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: save a life, or find a lost person, find a fugitive, 563 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 2: or find a body. You know, I could see here 564 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: a name probably six or eight cases where they might 565 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: have saved a life, or found a body, or found 566 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: a fugitive in fact of or a bunker. Right now, 567 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: if in a different parallel universe, phone calls have been 568 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: made to Hound Dogs Central in Canberra and they said, right, 569 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: there's two hounds on the where do we land? And 570 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 2: then they come and they'd be there before the sag 571 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 2: were with handlers. They might have been able to get 572 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: a steer on where the futitive ran to and then 573 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: where he ran to next, and where he might That 574 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: would have made that search so much more effective than 575 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: simple possibly of according And this is not the only 576 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 2: we're talking here, Samantha Murphy at Ballarat, We're talking an 577 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: example of how dogs are so good. The mushroom, Milady 578 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson has just been locked up. They did, after 579 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: quite a long time, bring down technology dogs from Interstate 580 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: and they just took them around the place and they 581 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: immediately turned up USB's laptops, iPads, all this stuff that 582 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: has been hidden. They found it easily. When they did 583 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: the same thing at Samantha Murphy's disappearance at Ballarat a 584 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 2: long time after a disappearance, I'm talking months, the technology 585 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: dog found a phone that had been dropped at the 586 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: edge of a damn. I think it had been covered 587 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 2: in water, but the dog found it. But she tells 588 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: you how good they can be when they're trained and 589 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 2: handled properly. Why are we not using one of the 590 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: oldest methods. I think there were monks breeding bloodhounds in 591 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: the fourteen hundreds. They've been around a long time. 592 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: I love that, and I think that's where we're going 593 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: as a society. In another business, I've been running last 594 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: few years of saying that says the future is human 595 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: and the reason we say that is because of the 596 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: rise of AI. It's like we're the humans will play 597 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: a part in this. So I actually think we are 598 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: going to see this kind of weird return to traditional 599 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: methods over the next few years. Because of the rise 600 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: of tech, tech's going to get so almost out of control. 601 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: I think this idea of bringing back hound dogs or 602 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: bloodhound dogs would be something that could happen, because it's 603 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: back to my original point about encrypted communications with crooks, Like, 604 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: we can't rely on tracking people's phones anymore. So we 605 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: had a bit of a really good period. There are 606 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: a few decades where we could just listen to everyone's phones, yes, 607 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: but that's essentially gone now. 608 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: So how else do how do we reverse engineer there? Yeah, 609 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: high tech breeds a reaction, and it means that really 610 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 2: smart crooks are going to go low tech low tech. Correct, 611 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: we never do anything. We never talk on phone, no, correct, 612 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 2: we never talking cars. We walk around in their carpet slippers, 613 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: and we write notes on cigarette papers and handed to 614 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: each other and then we eat them yep or whatever. Yep, 615 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: and they'll have it all their own way for a while, 616 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: I think, but very much on the back foot with 617 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 2: fighting crime or a whole lot of reasons. But yeah, 618 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 2: it's not all sort of sweetness, and the white hats 619 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 2: aren't really winning that work. 620 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't feel that. I mean, crime is a complex issue, 621 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: it's a societal issue. It will always be there and 622 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: it's not on the police to solve all those issues. 623 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you've got kids that aren't going to school 624 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 1: and you know, I've worked in a multicultural communications agency. 625 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: I've been the CEO of that company for the last 626 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: five years, working with multicultural communities here in Melbourne across. 627 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: Australia in a charitable capacity. No. 628 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: No, So I've been working in the family business for 629 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: the last five years and it's called the Load Agency 630 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: and we've been around for twenty seven years, serving mostly 631 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: government clients on helping them communicate with migrant and refugee 632 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: communities in Australia. And we saw a period there probably 633 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: for about eighteen months where the Victorian government gave us 634 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: no work and that was very unusual. So what I 635 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: mean by that is the Victorian government, as an example, 636 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: would give us work to do say communications campaign around 637 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: healthy eating or around transport. 638 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: Probably transport or whatever. We saw a period. 639 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: Where it's spending almost just tried up and I'm like, 640 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: I know the state's in a lot of debt, but 641 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: when the state government stops spending on social cohesion programs 642 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: and projects. It means social cohesion will fracture. And I 643 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: think that's what we're seeing now. We're seeing now that 644 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: we've got some communities in Victoria that are disenfranchised, not 645 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: supported by the government, not supported by systems. By systems, 646 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: I mean the local school, are they inclusive, Are they're 647 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: respectful of different people with different colored skins and different 648 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: language and that kind of thing. And if they're not, 649 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: they won't feel welcome where they won't feel like they belong, 650 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: and they'll go find somewhere where they do feel like 651 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: they belong. And unfortunately that is often in gangs. It's 652 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: always been like the biky thing is they join the 653 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: club because they want to feel like they belong, tattoo, 654 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: they get the uniform. They may have been from abusive 655 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: homes and disenfranchised and all that kind of stuff, can't 656 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: hold down a job. 657 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: Suddenly they're part. 658 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 1: Of a common movement that gives them purpose, gives them 659 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: a sense of belonging to collective, collective power. But if 660 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: you've got especially youth that we're seeing in Victoria, if 661 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: you've got kids between the age of ten and eighteen 662 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: that don't feel like they belong at their local school 663 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: because their teachers don't treat them with respect, or the 664 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: systems are broken because they don't speak very good English, 665 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: so they get teased or bullied, or they can't read 666 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: the materials properly. 667 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: It actually creates this flow. 668 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: On effect whether they well I'm not going to go 669 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: to school anymore, I'm going to go join a gang 670 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: and then they start committing crime. So it's not a 671 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: Victoria Police purpose to solve that. That's a government. It's 672 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: a whole of community, a whole of government. 673 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: Getting into very interesting areas there of these big issues yeah, 674 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: of human behavior. Yeah, groups and subgroups and all the 675 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 2: rest of them. Yeah, it's interesting, David Ballot. That completes 676 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: our second episode of talking to you about all things 677 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 2: crime and how to beat it. Thanks for having me. 678 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. See you next time. Thanks for listening. 679 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 680 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: True crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 681 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot Au 682 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: forward slash Andrew Rule one word for advertising inquiries. Go 683 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: to News podcasts sold at news dot com dot au 684 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 2: that is all one word news podcasts sold. And if 685 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: you want further information about this episode, links are in 686 00:34:48,040 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 2: the description. Five