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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. The tone

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Speaker 1: in the male caller's voice was intimidating. The brief voicemail

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Speaker 1: he left was unusually abrupt. Kathy Hardy, a woman in

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Speaker 1: her sixties, heard it one day in October twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: two on her mobile phone. At the time, Kathy and

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Speaker 1: her husband Les, living in regional Victoria, had been wondering

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Speaker 1: about her cousin, Beverly Brooker. They had heard nothing since

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Speaker 1: Bev's birthday in March twenty twenty two, no texting or

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Speaker 1: calls for seven months from Kathy's lifelong friend Bev, living

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Speaker 1: just down the road from her handyman builder John Winfield.

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Speaker 2: I've got a mysterious message on my phone. Please do

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Speaker 2: not ring this number. BEV is no longer available on

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Speaker 2: this number.

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Speaker 3: Have nothing more to do with it.

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Speaker 2: And it was quite gruff, and it was abrupt, and

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Speaker 2: there was no introduction to the speaker or anything. We

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Speaker 2: dismissed it and left it. It was a bit menacing

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Speaker 2: almost to me. I felt it was a bit of

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Speaker 2: a warning.

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Speaker 3: Don't try and get in contact with this.

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Speaker 1: As I understand it, Bev's phone was used to try

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Speaker 1: to telephone you, but you didn't pick up, and the

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Speaker 1: caller using Bev's phone left of voicemail, which you've described.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, and the call was very brief. It was

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Speaker 2: less than ten seconds. We mostly spoke by text anyway,

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Speaker 2: So yes, it was out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: And as best you can, Kathy, can you just say

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Speaker 1: what the caller said.

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Speaker 2: It was like, do not ring this number. This number

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Speaker 2: is no longer available. Bev is not contactable on this number.

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Speaker 2: It didn't say she was dead. It just warned me

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Speaker 2: off using the number. There was no warmth in the voice.

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Speaker 2: It was quite almost aggressive. Made me think twice, who

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Speaker 2: is this?

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Speaker 3: They didn't say who they were.

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Speaker 1: Within hours of the release of the previous episode called

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Speaker 1: Suburban Gothic and the accompanying newspaper articles about John Winfield's

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Speaker 1: extraordinary multimillion dollar windfall after the death of Bev brain cancer,

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Speaker 1: on September fifteen, twenty twenty two, I heard for the

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Speaker 1: first time from Bev's cousin Kathy Hardy. Before Bev became

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Speaker 1: terminally ill, she had left everything in her estate to Kathy,

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Speaker 1: but Kathy didn't know this until just the other day,

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Speaker 1: and shortly before this episode was released, we recorded this interview.

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Speaker 2: I had no idea until I read the paper on Friday.

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Speaker 1: This is the article in the Australian based on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Correct your reaction.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I was GOB's mate. I really was speechless. I

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Speaker 3: had no idea.

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Speaker 1: In the previous episode, you'll recall that Jeff Outerbridge from

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Speaker 1: the town of Balina, spoke of his sister Beverly Brooker

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Speaker 1: and her ties with John Winfield. John Winfield took total

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Speaker 1: charge of the funeral and cremation arrangements. John was the

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Speaker 1: executor and trustee of Bev's will, and he excluded most

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Speaker 1: of Bev's family and friends from what felt like a

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Speaker 1: secretive and unusually low key service. According to Jeff, he

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Speaker 1: said that John would claim this was what Bev really wanted.

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Speaker 1: She made a significant change to her will six months

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Speaker 1: before she succumbed to misothelioma. The cancer had spread from

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Speaker 1: her lungs to her brain. Treatment options by then were palliative.

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Speaker 1: With the change to her will, Bev left almost everything

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Speaker 1: in her estate to John Winfield. John had not featured

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Speaker 1: in the previous version of her will. The two introverts

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Speaker 1: and near neighbors. Bev and John first became friends after

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Speaker 1: he offered to do handyman work at her ocean facing

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Speaker 1: house near Lennox Head, and he was helping to organize

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Speaker 1: the care for her when she was very ill. Not

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Speaker 1: long before she died, Bev's solicitor told Jeff Outterbridge of

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Speaker 1: the purported role of John Winfield in Bev's life, but

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Speaker 1: Jeff is still incredulous about it.

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Speaker 4: And the solicitor said to me, there's a name on

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Speaker 4: this paperwork that you won't recognize, and it is Bev's partner.

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Speaker 4: And I looked at him with a funny face and went,

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Speaker 4: I don't think so, because Bev doesn't have a partner.

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Speaker 4: I thought, this blake doesn't know what he's talking about.

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Speaker 1: The story of John Ann Bromwin is stranger than fiction.

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Speaker 1: The story of John and Bev is similarly remarkable. This

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Speaker 1: is part two of the story of how Bev's wealth

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Speaker 1: fell almost entirely into the hands of the executor of

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Speaker 1: her estate, her handyman John, while the only other beneficiary,

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Speaker 1: Bev's cousin Kathy, was completely oblivious for more than two

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Speaker 1: years to the fact that Bev had even died. It

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Speaker 1: looks like a textbook study of maladministration of an estate

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Speaker 1: by an executor, John, who clearly put his financial interests first.

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Speaker 1: He appears to have deliberately kept Bev's cousin Kathy in

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Speaker 1: the dark about the fact of Bev's death and of

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Speaker 1: Kathy's rights and entitlements. It raises serious questions about John's

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Speaker 1: influence on Bev when she was dying of brain cancer

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Speaker 1: and when she changed her will six months before her passing.

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Speaker 1: Bev's original will in twenty eleven left everything to her

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Speaker 1: cousin Kathy Hardy. Bev's new will left almost everything to John,

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Speaker 1: and the changes that Bev made to her will occurred

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Speaker 1: at a time when Bev was behaving very strangely as

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Speaker 1: the tumor in her brain was quite possibly affecting her cognition.

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Speaker 1: A Winfield family friend, John Heaton, has asked on the

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Speaker 1: Facebook discussion group for the Bromwin podcast series, what does

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Speaker 1: any of this have to do with an investigation into

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Speaker 1: what happened to Broman? The answer is, it quite possibly

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do with Bromwin. In my view,

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Speaker 1: and we are not suggesting for a moment that Bev

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Speaker 1: met with foul play. But while evidence of the handling

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Speaker 1: of Bev and her assets by John is not directly

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Speaker 1: relevant to Brohman's disappearance, it goes to questions of character

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Speaker 1: and an important legal concept which criminal defense lawyers and

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Speaker 1: prosecutors call evidence of a tendency that turns on whether

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Speaker 1: a person such as an accused, acts in a particular

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Speaker 1: way in different situations, such as with assets, money, property.

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Speaker 1: You could not make up the twists and turns in

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Speaker 1: this case. For reasons you are about to hear and

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Speaker 1: which I was not expecting. We are going to spend

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Speaker 1: more time on Bev Handyman, John cousin Kathy, and Bev's

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Speaker 1: two brothers in Barna, Jeff and Paul, before we start

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Speaker 1: the string of episodes which will reconstruct the two thousand

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Speaker 1: and two inquest into the presumed death in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: three of Bromwin Joey Winfield. Now let's go back to

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Speaker 1: October twenty twenty two. At that time, Kathy was perplexed

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Speaker 1: about having been warned off contacting Bev on her mobile phone.

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Speaker 1: She didn't have contact details for Bev's brothers Jeff and Paul.

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Speaker 2: Most of the communication miss th ree Bev, so when

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Speaker 2: we were coming up, she'd let them know we knew

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Speaker 2: about them and what they were up to.

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Speaker 3: Three Beev.

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Speaker 1: But Bev's silence was troubling.

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Speaker 2: There were no no Christmas messages, no Birthday messages, and

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Speaker 2: we started to think something's not quite right.

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Speaker 3: But we couldn't find a death notice. We couldn't find anything, so.

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Speaker 2: We were just sort of at a loss to know

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Speaker 2: what to do next, and we did lots of searches,

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Speaker 2: and so it sort of left us in a quandary

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Speaker 2: and we just sort of.

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Speaker 3: Sat on it. Really, it was not very satisfactory.

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Speaker 2: We did, or we thought we could do, to try

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Speaker 2: and find her, but to no avail. It was one

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Speaker 2: of those friendships where it was intermittent, but we could

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Speaker 2: take up from where we left off. We had a

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Speaker 2: lot in common in our parentage and she was my

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Speaker 2: link to the rest of the family. My brother and

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Speaker 2: I were brought up in Sydney and most of the

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Speaker 2: cousins were on the north coast of New South Wales,

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Speaker 2: and she was that link to let me know who

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Speaker 2: was doing what and how things were going. Beverly's got

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Speaker 2: my mother's name a middle name, so there was their

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Speaker 2: closeness there, and I was grateful to have their friendship,

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Speaker 2: and we always made sure that when we went up

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Speaker 2: that way that we called in and visited.

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Speaker 1: Now the dates are important. Bev had been dead for

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Speaker 1: about a month when her phone was used by a

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Speaker 1: mail with a gruff voice to leave that message on

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Speaker 1: Kathy's phone. John Winfield had control of Bev's mobile phone.

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Speaker 1: Two years later, in October twenty twenty four, Kathy's mobile

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Speaker 1: phone rang.

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Speaker 2: Basically, I got a phone call who was late October,

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Speaker 2: so just last year, quite a gap.

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Speaker 1: Kathy didn't recognize the number, so it went to voicemail.

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Speaker 2: That was an office girl in a solicitor's office in

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Speaker 2: Ballana telling me that I was a beneficiary of a

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Speaker 2: will and they'd like me to contact them. They wanted

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Speaker 2: my bb details and a mailing address. They only had

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Speaker 2: my phone number that I didn't know how much at

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Speaker 2: that point. They just said, you've been the beneficiary of

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Speaker 2: some money. And I listened back to the voicemail and

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Speaker 2: that was my first time that I actually got clarification

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Speaker 2: that she'd actually died.

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Speaker 3: They didn't say when.

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Speaker 1: Kathy telephoned and spoke to someone at the law firm

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Speaker 1: in Ballina.

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Speaker 3: We asked for a copy of the will as well.

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Speaker 2: She sent all that through and that was a huge

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Speaker 2: shock to me, absolute shock.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I burst into tears.

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Speaker 2: I was really upset because that's the first time I

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Speaker 2: really had clarification that she was dead and that she

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Speaker 2: thought enough of me to give me that much money.

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Speaker 3: I was blown away.

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Speaker 1: By late October twenty twenty four, the Bromwin podcast series

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Speaker 1: was nearing the end of season two. My investigation had

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Speaker 1: been gaining traction for five and a half months since

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Speaker 1: the first episode was released in May twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: and folk in lennox Head were talking furtively about John

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Speaker 1: and the two deceased women in his life, Bromwin and Bev.

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Speaker 1: In Victoria, Kathy's husband, Les Hardy, was shocked for another reason.

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Speaker 1: He could see that John Winfield was named in Bev's

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Speaker 1: will as almost sole beneficiary as well as the executor

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Speaker 1: of her estate. Les Hardy is a subscriber to The Australian.

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Speaker 1: He and Kathy had been reading about a blow called

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Speaker 1: John Winfield and his missing wife since May twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 5: When I got the will, I said, OK, this company right,

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Speaker 5: can it this bloke here?

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Speaker 1: Kathy wanted to know more about her cousin and friend Bev.

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Speaker 2: I had so many questions. I wanted to know when

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Speaker 2: she did. I didn't know when she died. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to know what she died of. I wanted to know

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Speaker 2: where she was buried. And so a few days later

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Speaker 2: I rang back the solicitors again and I asked to

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Speaker 2: speak to the solicitor who.

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Speaker 3: Made the will.

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Speaker 2: I asked him what she died of and he told me,

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Speaker 2: and I asked when she died and.

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Speaker 3: He told me that.

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Speaker 2: I asked, so, this John Winfield person, is he the

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Speaker 2: person that's in the paper?

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Speaker 3: And he said, yes, he is.

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Speaker 1: We had no idea. Why did you ask about John Winfield?

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Speaker 3: Well, I was curious.

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Speaker 2: I get the weekend paper and we've been reading about

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Speaker 2: this situation with John Winfield. And we were interested because

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Speaker 2: it was on the north coast of New South Wales.

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Speaker 2: It was a lanic said skinner's head, and because I

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Speaker 2: knew they've lived there, my ears pricked up.

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Speaker 3: I was interested in it.

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, surely there's not two John Winfield's in

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Speaker 2: the town. And then I said, so, what was the relationship?

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Speaker 3: And he said they were neighbors as far as he knew.

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Speaker 3: They went in a relationship, but they were close.

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Speaker 2: I was a bit concerned because who is this fellow

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Speaker 2: who were few suspicious things about what had happened in

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Speaker 2: his past, And I wondered what made Bev connect with

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Speaker 2: this person in the first place. And I was concerned

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Speaker 2: for the boys, my cousins.

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Speaker 1: We are going to come back to Kathy and Les

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Speaker 1: Hardy a little later.

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Speaker 6: Oh my god, I just can't believe it. Why don't

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Speaker 6: you find this out?

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Speaker 1: Bromwin's cousin and good friend, Megan Reid, was done by

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Speaker 1: the disclosures about Beverly Brooker. John's conduct in excluding Beb's

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Speaker 1: friends and relations from her funeral service in Balina in

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Speaker 1: late twenty twenty two, has called to stir and the

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Speaker 1: revelations about Bev's will and the multi million dollar estate

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Speaker 1: which went almost entirely to John Winfield, have fired people up.

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Speaker 6: Keeping the family away that is really calculated.

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Speaker 1: It is just so suspicious, especially when she had brain cancer.

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Speaker 1: The alternative scenario is that he really cared for her.

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Speaker 6: And sorry, I know him. I don't think he's capable.

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Speaker 1: The family is deeply suspicious that the funeral service was

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Speaker 1: conducted in such a low key way with just really

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Speaker 1: nobody who knew Bev. There, Like, was that really Bev's

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Speaker 1: will and wish? Or was that John's wish?

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Speaker 6: They could have contested that will. Definitely contested it on

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Speaker 6: the ground that she had brain cancer. What strikes me

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Speaker 6: as even more suspicious of this notebook that is unusual.

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Speaker 1: John and Bev were not living together. Lawyers and experts

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Speaker 1: in financial planning have suggested to me that the diary

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Speaker 1: entries in relation to Bev's illness are integral parts of

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Speaker 1: John's evidence of his conduct in the event of the

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Speaker 1: will being disputed. The diary is John's insurance policy, and

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Speaker 1: according to one expert in financial planning, this is the

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Speaker 1: way that John is trying to show that he was

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Speaker 1: a big part of Bev's life. I asked a voice

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Speaker 1: actor to express parts of a note that I received

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Speaker 1: from a senior financial planner.

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Speaker 7: To me, it shows intent to get his hands on

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Speaker 7: the estate. He has seen an opportunity with a single,

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Speaker 7: vulnerable woman. He probably spoke to her every day while

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Speaker 7: working there. He is trying to show he was integral

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Speaker 7: to her care, but it wouldn't be too hard to

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Speaker 7: record her appointments. For example, Bev might say, I have

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Speaker 7: my own college's appointment tomorrow at too. He records that.

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Speaker 7: Next day, he asks how it went, and he records that.

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Speaker 7: It gives the impression he is more important or involved

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Speaker 7: than he probably was, at least until the end. Overlaying that,

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Speaker 7: of course, is her high level of vulnerability with brain cancer.

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Speaker 7: This can change how people react to things and could

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Speaker 7: impact their decision making.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, John may have been assiduous and

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Speaker 1: diligent in his care for Bev, noting every appointment, her medication,

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Speaker 1: the visits that she was receiving from the cancer Council.

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Speaker 6: For him to do something like that, I can't imagine

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Speaker 6: that at all. I mean, why wouldn't he allow the family?

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Speaker 6: That's not right.

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Speaker 8: How did he.

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Speaker 6: Suddenly get guardianship and I don't want to see my family?

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Speaker 6: I don't believe that from a minute, like a bad movie.

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Speaker 6: I talked to Crystal about it straight away. I said,

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Speaker 6: you won't the one taking notefully to know wasn't me.

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Speaker 6: She laughed, and I said, Crystal, hate to tell you

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Speaker 6: but it really does look dodgy. And she said, oh,

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Speaker 6: I think they were with friends.

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Speaker 1: Crystal knew about it. That's interesting, yea, she knew.

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Speaker 9: She knew about her.

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Speaker 6: And I said, your father's never been good friends with anybody.

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Speaker 6: And she said, oh, you don't know. It's changed so much.

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Speaker 6: And I said, well, how is he doing with the podcast?

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Speaker 6: She said, oh, he's absolutely fine about it because he's

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Speaker 6: got so many friends out as this huge socialize. And

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Speaker 6: I said, did you see in the paper that said

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Speaker 6: that John's selling the house?

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Speaker 1: And I said, do you.

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Speaker 6: Think he's doing a runner? And she said no, She laughed.

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Speaker 6: She said no. She said, there's nowhere in the world

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Speaker 6: he'd leave here. He's got a life here. He wouldn't leave.

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Speaker 6: He believes in himself so much, and he believes he's innocent.

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Speaker 6: If he believes it enough, he'll think the whole world

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Speaker 6: will too.

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Speaker 1: As we were talking about wills, I asked Megan about

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Speaker 1: something I recalled being told the past by her and

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Speaker 1: by Andy and Michelle read what has Crystal been told

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Speaker 1: about John's will?

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Speaker 6: Tells her that not just once, repeatedly, he tells her,

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Speaker 6: so she's not confused by it at the time. That

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Speaker 6: he's leaving her absolutely nothing.

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Speaker 1: And why is that?

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Speaker 6: Has a mother walked out and anything that she had,

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Speaker 6: he's spent looking after her, and so therefore she shouldn't

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Speaker 6: get anything, which is just looking ridiculous. And I said,

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Speaker 6: don't you find that weird? And she said, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 6: Dad's just making sure that.

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Speaker 9: I know my situation.

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Speaker 6: He's brainwashed her into believing that she's not really entitled

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Speaker 6: to anything, and I don't really understand that.

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Speaker 1: Let's return to Kathy and Les Hardy. Kathy was upset

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Speaker 1: by what she heard in episode twenty two, the extraordinary

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Speaker 1: control demanded by John over the conduct of Bev's funeral,

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Speaker 1: the exclusion of Bev's friends and relations from the funeral service.

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Speaker 1: It was beyond the pale. Kathy was very surprised by

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Speaker 1: the disclosure that she had been the sole beneficiary in

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Speaker 1: the previous will. And Kathy hadn't been told about this

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Speaker 1: by the solicitor in Balner when he informed her in

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Speaker 1: October twenty twenty four of Bev's death. When Kathy called

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Speaker 1: me to talk about it, I shared details from a

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Speaker 1: property search that we had done on Bev's ocean facing house.

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Speaker 1: We have the property record for the house in Skinner's Head,

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Speaker 1: Beverly's former house, and it's showing that the sale date,

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Speaker 1: that is the date on which it was acquired by

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Speaker 1: John Winfield, was the twenty seventh of April twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: John's newcastle the inheritance, and this time at zero cost

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Speaker 1: to him. The property had gone into John Winfield's name

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Speaker 1: seven and a half months after Bab's death, according to

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Speaker 1: the property records.

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Speaker 5: And the moment that he was granted probate, he transferred

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Speaker 5: that property to his name.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't for another eighteen months after that that

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Speaker 2: I was informed by the solicitors that I was a beneficiary.

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Speaker 1: It's remarkable when John is the executor and trustee of

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Speaker 1: the will, he has these legal responsibilities. Now, in the

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Speaker 1: previous episode, you heard Jeff Outerbridge explain that he asked

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Speaker 1: a solicitor for advice on whether he and his brother

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Speaker 1: Paul could contest the will, but because neither brother was

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Speaker 1: named in either of Bev's wills, the legal advice that

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Speaker 1: they got was that it would be hard for them. However,

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Speaker 1: the one person who could make a legal challenge to

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Speaker 1: the will before the assets of the estate were distributed

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Speaker 1: with something that's called probate was Kathy Hardy. It is

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Speaker 1: important to emphasize something at this point. Les and Kathy

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Speaker 1: Hardy are comfortably off, unlike the brothers. Bev had told

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Speaker 1: Les and Kathy when they visited her in twenty seventeen

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Speaker 1: at her house that she had named Kathy in her will.

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Speaker 5: I can remember actually telling her putting the will, she's

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Speaker 5: not that much younger than you, you might outliver.

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Speaker 1: Kathy speculated back then that a gift of perhaps five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars might be coming to her from cousin Bev,

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Speaker 1: but Kathy didn't covet it. Now, however, Kathy and Les

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Speaker 1: are of the same mind as Kathy's cousins Jeff and

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Speaker 1: Paul Outerbridge. They all smell a rat with the radical

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Speaker 1: change in Bev's will to benefit John Winfield.

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Speaker 5: Out of all the people who could have challenged that will,

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Speaker 5: Kathy is the person who could have, and she was

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Speaker 5: denied the opportunity because she wasn't even told anything about

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Speaker 5: the circumstances, and even worse, she wasn't even informed of

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Speaker 5: her cousin's death. And the idea that we wouldn't have

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Speaker 5: attended the funeral is just terrible, because we certainly would have.

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Speaker 1: Not only was she not informed, she was told in

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Speaker 1: a voicemail to back off. How does John justify that

365
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Speaker 1: he knows, because he's the executor of the will, that

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Speaker 1: Kathy is the only other beneficiary, so he knows that

367
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Speaker 1: Kathy's very important to Bev, and yet he doesn't tell

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Speaker 1: Kathy about Bev having died. And it's impossible to not

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Speaker 1: suspect that that's because he just wanted to conceal it

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Speaker 1: from Kathy.

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Speaker 2: That's the only thinking you can have on that he's

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Speaker 2: trying to cover up as much as he could. It's

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Speaker 2: quite deedious, really, it's almost to me feels like a

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Speaker 2: bit of a scam.

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Speaker 1: So hypothetical, let's imagine things turned out differently. You were

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Speaker 1: alerted to the fact that there was to be a

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Speaker 1: funeral service Bev had died. You went to the funeral,

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Speaker 1: You caught up with Jeff and Paul. You were subsequently

379
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Speaker 1: about the will. Jeff then showed you the earlier will,

380
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Speaker 1: which left everything to Kathy, and that will, of course,

381
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: had been fundamentally changed shortly before Bev died. Jeff also

382
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Speaker 1: informed you that Bev was becoming incredibly confused forgetting really

383
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Speaker 1: obvious and important things and was not herself, and that

384
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Speaker 1: everything had gone to John bar two hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: for Kathy. Do you believe you would have returned to

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Speaker 1: Victoria and said, oh, well, that's the way it is,

387
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Speaker 1: or would you, with Jeff and Paul, have considered a

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Speaker 1: course of action to challenge the will before probate was granted.

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Speaker 3: Definitely.

390
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Speaker 2: Obviously we would have on behalf of myself, but on

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Speaker 2: behalf of the other two people involved. You could see

392
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Speaker 2: that some injustice had been done, and we would have

393
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Speaker 2: tried to do something.

394
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Speaker 3: About it immediately if we'd had the opportunity. Definitely.

395
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Speaker 2: If you don't treat other human beings like that, he's

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Speaker 2: ad Johnny come lately.

397
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Speaker 3: As far as.

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Speaker 2: Her life goes, he's preyed on someone. Really, she wasn't

399
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 2: a recluse so much as she's just a quiet person.

400
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: She had friends from work, she was out and about,

401
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: but she just kept herself to herself. When her mother

402
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: passed away, quite a number of colleagues came to that

403
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 2: funeral to support her, and she never talked about him.

404
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: She never told her friends her family about him. He

405
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: was not someone who was considered part of her life.

406
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: So who is this person and how come he's all

407
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: of a sudden been left this.

408
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Speaker 3: Amount of money.

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Speaker 2: We definitely would have got involved because we're suspicious now,

410
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: and we would have been suspicious then.

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Speaker 1: It's not just a legal thing, it's a moral thing.

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Speaker 5: If we'd gone to that funeral and there were only

413
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Speaker 5: a people there, we would have been gobsmacked, and all

414
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 5: of the other weird things that went on, we would

415
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 5: have said, this is just outrageous, and it is outrageous.

416
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 5: The brothers thought about challenging the will, and Jeffrey actually

417
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 5: told us yesterday when they did go to the solicitor.

418
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 5: The solicitor that they sought advice from, said, you possibly

419
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 5: would not have been successful, but your cousin probably would be.

420
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 5: But of course the cousin Kathy didn't know, and Jeffrey

421
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 5: didn't have Kathy's number, although he had asked John for

422
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 5: it on at least two occasions, and he wouldn't provide it.

423
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 5: I don't think we're talking out of turn here. The

424
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 5: brothers don't have any resources. These people haven't had the

425
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 5: education and the opportunities that Kathy and I have had,

426
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 5: and they see the world through different prism.

427
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: After the revelations from the previous episode, Kathy spoke to

428
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: the solicitor in Ballina again. She wanted him to give

429
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: her Jeff Outterbridge's phone number.

430
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Speaker 2: I just said that I'm now aware that there was

431
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: another will and that I was so beneficiary and I'd

432
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: like to talk to Jeff about it and find out

433
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: more information and how he's feeling.

434
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: But the solicitor declined to pass on her own cousin's

435
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: contact details.

436
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: He said, no, the more I think about it, the

437
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: more no, I don't think I can help you. And

438
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: I just said, okay, that's fine, old ring Headley Thomas,

439
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: and see if I can get it that way.

440
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 5: We have some questions here when the will was changed,

441
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 5: What inquiries were ate about Beb's health she was obviously

442
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 5: ill at the time. What advice was being offered to

443
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 5: the execus about him fulfilling his juiciary duties towards us.

444
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 5: That is a fundamental question and it needs answering. People

445
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 5: need to be held accountable, don't they. I asked Kathy why.

446
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 5: In her opinion, her cousin had intended to leave everything

447
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 5: that she owned to Kathy, as set out in Bev's will,

448
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 5: which had been valid for eleven years until just six

449
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 5: months before Bev's death.

450
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: Years ago, Bev's parents' marriage broke up and Bev's mum

451
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: struggled to look after four children, and so my parents,

452
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: who were much better off, decided that they would support

453
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: the two girls by paying for them to go to

454
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: back in the sixties, a secretarial school.

455
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: Ensuring them of a job for their future.

456
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: She'd lost her sister, and my parents had helped a

457
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: lot in that sit situation as well. There've been a

458
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: close connection for a long time, and I thought, is this.

459
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: There of giving back?

460
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: Does it strike you both as something highly unusual or

461
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: perhaps in Bev's nature to have altered her will when

462
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: she was ill and given almost everything she owned to

463
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: her neighbor John.

464
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: I said, as highly unusual.

465
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: She was a person who planned her life, she was

466
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,719
Speaker 2: careful with her money, she thought everything through, and this

467
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: seems to be very much a spur of the moment

468
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: kind of decision. And I'm not saying that for my

469
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: benefit either. I'm not about the money. I'm not an

470
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 2: avarice person. But I just think that it's very odd,

471
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: after eleven years that you would do that particularly so

472
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: when you were unwell.

473
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: And Les recalled the last time they saw Beverly. It

474
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: was June twenty seventeen.

475
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: And we had a lovely afternoon tea together and a chat.

476
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: She said, I'd love you to come and have a

477
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: look at my house, and it's on the way back

478
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: to Barron Bay.

479
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: And she was so proud of it. And for a

480
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: girl who came from.

481
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: A broken marriage and she lived by herself for most

482
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: of her life, it was a real achievement.

483
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 8: Were there any signs of renovation then absolutely none.

484
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: Red brick and I had a lot of brick inside

485
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: That was Nita's a.

486
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: Pin great for her, perfect and it was in a

487
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 3: nice area. She was proud of it, and we were

488
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 3: proud for.

489
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 5: Her, absolutely, and we also learned something else about it

490
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 5: by going there. We didn't realize she was such a rockabilly.

491
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 5: We really had a laugh together. She had all these

492
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 5: pictures of Elvis Presley and other people from that era

493
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 5: with the walls, and she liked revealing that aspect of

494
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 5: her character to us.

495
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: How would you describe Beb's physical and mental condition in

496
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen when you saw her for the last time.

497
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 3: She looked fabulous.

498
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: I've got photos to prove it, and she sounded fabulous.

499
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: She was really happy.

500
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: She was excited that we were here with her, and

501
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: we hadn't seen each other for a while, and she

502
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: was in grateful.

503
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 5: Beverly was a really good looking lady. If she was

504
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 5: ever going to attract a man, she could easily have

505
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 5: done so in her forties and fifties if that was

506
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 5: the purpose of her life.

507
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: But it wasn't.

508
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 5: She enjoyed being single and doing her own thing. Beverly

509
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,479
Speaker 5: did not disclose her illness then or were subsequently to Kathy.

510
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: She gave us no indication that she had something wrong

511
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 2: with her none at all.

512
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 3: She is a bit stoic like that.

513
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: If I had have had knowledge of it, I would

514
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: have been up there like a shot, because I would

515
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: have wanted to have spent some time with her. You

516
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: think you would have let your brothers know. She wasn't

517
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: estranged from them at all. They kept in very regular contact.

518
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: We can't explain it.

519
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 5: This person who on the evidence, didn't contact Kathy about

520
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 5: her death, didn't ask her brother Paul to go to

521
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 5: the hospital to be with her, let Jeffrey know. At

522
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 5: the last moment, what was going on controlled the funeral

523
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 5: to keep people away from it, and did he actually

524
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 5: encourage her not to contact people who may have had

525
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 5: a different outlook on what was going on the circumstances

526
00:33:53,280 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 5: that don't look very good really. Before interviewing athy An

527
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 5: Les for the first time, I had unfinished business with

528
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 5: Jeff and Paul Outerbridge in Ballina, as well as Paul's

529
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 5: wife Sarah. Something that you did not hear in the

530
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 5: previous episode was Jeff's recounting of a promise by John

531
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 5: to do something with Bev's ashes.

532
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 10: His text message was about my sister's ashes because she

533
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 10: was cremated and he was going to have her ashes

534
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 10: interred into the wall over the eastbound cemetery, the same

535
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 10: wall that my mother is in.

536
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: He said, I'm not.

537
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 10: Going to do it straight away, It'll be done in

538
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 10: twelve months time, which I thought was strange.

539
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 8: Why would you wait twelve months?

540
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 4: He actually gave me the date and I thought, well least,

541
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 4: but it all worked out right down to the very day.

542
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 4: He was telling me how things were going to go,

543
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 4: and that was it. He might have done something completely

544
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 4: different with her ashes, might have spread her ashes in

545
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 4: the garden at the house.

546
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: The first anniversary of Bev's death was September fifteenth, twenty

547
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: twenty three.

548
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 4: I should go and have a look ostpose and see

549
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 4: if she's actually in that war. I was only jogatitt

550
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 4: Cemetery just the other day. That's where my partner is there,

551
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 4: and that's where my mother is there, and I go

552
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: over there from time to time.

553
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: As this episode was being put together, Jeff visited the

554
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: cemetery with my friend and young colleague, Isaac Irons. Bev's

555
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: ashes were placed in the wall, albeit one year and

556
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: eleven months after Bev had died. So the plant.

557
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 4: Reads in loving memory of Beverly Eileen Brooker, quite achiever,

558
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 4: quality human, devoted public servant, loved and well remembered by all.

559
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 4: You'll find me in the garden. And that's Bev's plark.

560
00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 10: And how does it make you feel?

561
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 8: It's very nice. There's no mention of any family members.

562
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 8: It just says loved and will remembered by all.

563
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 4: I was quite surprised to see a picture of Bev

564
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 4: on there, better than some of the other plerks that

565
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 4: are here. Would have been nice to know it was

566
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 4: happening better late than ever I guess so.

567
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 11: This was put in place in August between.

568
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 4: Twenty four apparently, So yeah, you found out today, found

569
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 4: out today.

570
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: I think it's place.

571
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 4: You'll come back to visit, oh for sure, because I'm

572
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 4: going to be just up here at my partners. My

573
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 4: mum's on the other side of the same wall. So definitely,

574
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 4: now that I know it's here, I will pay my respects.

575
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 4: If my brother hadn't made inquiries and found out about

576
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 4: this today, we still wouldn't have known that it had

577
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 4: already been organized and done. No contact from John, and

578
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 4: she didn't deserve to have the funeral that she had.

579
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 8: It was me and I was having any say.

580
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: In the matter.

581
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 4: I would have made sure that there would have been

582
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 4: a lot of people there, all her work colleagues, more family.

583
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 4: It would have been packed. It was just very disappointing,

584
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 4: and according to John, that's how Bev wanted it. No,

585
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 4: I think he had a lot of control in the matter.

586
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: It was all his way or no way.

587
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: Jeff held a certificate. It was an acknowledgment from Bev's

588
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: new South Wales government employer that she had served fifty

589
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: years for the department. Bev would have been at least

590
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: sixty five in the accompanying photograph of her with a

591
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: younger manager offering his congratulations half a century of service

592
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: in the one place. The certificate was a nice touch,

593
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: but unfortunately someone had spelt Beverly's name wrong.

594
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 8: When she started out, she was tea lady. She had

595
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 8: to make everyone tea smogo.

596
00:37:59,000 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 12: We all start something.

597
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: You got to start somewhere. Yeah. One hour earlier, at

598
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: Jeff's house, his younger brother, Paul outer Bridge, spoke of

599
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: John with thinly veiled contempt during our interview via zoom.

600
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: Have you seen John since the funeral?

601
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 8: No?

602
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 11: No, why would I. I can't say his name. I

603
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 11: call him the snake, cunning as a cut snake. I

604
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 11: can't drive past the house. I can't go down the.

605
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: Road because it upsets you too much.

606
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 11: Yeah, he does, he does. Totally gutted. It hasn't been easy.

607
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 11: I was totally blind to the situation, and I knew

608
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 11: nothing about this other guy that we're talking about. Apparently

609
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 11: was on the scene for seven years or so.

610
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: Paul wants me to know that, as far as he

611
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: was concerned, his relationship with his sister Bev was good.

612
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: She was quite a bit older, than him, but they

613
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: got along just fine.

614
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 11: There wasn't any bad tension between us at all.

615
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: There was no major falling out.

616
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 11: No no falling out at all. My wife, Sarah, she

617
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 11: used to take Beverly out the square dancing.

618
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: Jeff told me Paul that he was instructed by John

619
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: that Jeff couldn't disclose to you how close to the

620
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: end Bev was, and that you weren't to know about that.

621
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 11: I just felt kind of left out. I thought my

622
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 11: sister would let me be there for the final few

623
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 11: hours of her life.

624
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: Here's Jeff.

625
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 4: I don't think Bev was of soeund mind to be

626
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 4: honest near the end, because she did have brain cancer.

627
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 8: She was making strange decisions. My partner was in.

628
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 4: Hospital at the time, and Bev would come to the

629
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 4: hospital to visit and we'd walk outside and talk.

630
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 8: Her behavior was very odd, odd and strange. But she even.

631
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 4: Forgot Paul's birthday, yeah, first time ever. And she forgot

632
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 4: all about Paul himself. She didn't remember Paul, and she

633
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 4: changed her will during that time when she was making

634
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 4: strange decisions and acting very.

635
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 11: Odd, and she'd always ring me or I'd have a

636
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 11: card in the mailbox. Birthday card, but there was nothing

637
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 11: this year.

638
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 4: I wished him happy birthday and I said, what did

639
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 4: BEV say to you? And he said, oh, I haven't

640
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 4: heard from Bev. And I thought, Oho, there's something funny

641
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 4: going on here. This is strange. I'll ring her tomorrow,

642
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 4: which I did, and I said what did Paul say

643
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 4: for his birthday? And there was silence. There was no answer.

644
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 4: I said, are you there, Bev? Because everything went silent,

645
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 4: and she said, yes, I'm here. And I said what

646
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 4: did Paul say for his birthday? And she said, who's Paul?

647
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 4: She didn't know who Paul was brother? And I said,

648
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 4: Paul your brother. You know what did he say when

649
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 4: you're ranging for his birthday? And she said, oh, I

650
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 4: remember Paul. She never rang Paul for his birthday, couldn't

651
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 4: remember Paul, and that was the first time ever she

652
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 4: missed it.

653
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: Paul also recalled the unusual spectacle at Bev's funeral of

654
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: the woman introduced by John Winfield as his daughter. Paul, Jeff,

655
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: and Paul's wife Sarah have since been showing photographs of

656
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: Lauren Winfield. The three confirmed that she was the woman

657
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: at the funeral.

658
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 11: Probably two things that stick in my mind. When we

659
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 11: were watching the photos of Beverly at the time, she

660
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 11: wasn't watching them really. She was on my left, the

661
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 11: far left, and Jeffrey was on my right. I could

662
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 11: see her for my peripheral vision that she wasn't looking

663
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 11: at the movies or the pictures. She was looking at us,

664
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 11: And I was thinking that.

665
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 8: Was a little bit weird.

666
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 11: Why is she looking at us all the time? She

667
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 11: was looking right at us, Me and my brother along

668
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 11: the front seat. She didn't look behind or anything. She

669
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 11: was fully attention on us. She might have been writing

670
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 11: something down at the time. I remember Paul telling me

671
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 11: that she was taking notes. That sounds pretty true. I

672
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 11: wouldn't have said that the brother if it wasn't happening.

673
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 11: Sarah and my wife found Palm Brothers to a Sister

674
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 11: and we thought that'd be nice to.

675
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 8: Be read out.

676
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 11: So she asks Lauren would that be okay? And she

677
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 11: said yes, we'll fit it in somewhere along the way.

678
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 11: So we did that and Sarah read the palm mount

679
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 11: about brothers and how they are to their sister, their

680
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 11: journey through life. He didn't want that at all, because

681
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 11: I heard him, so.

682
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: He is Sarah Outerbridge Paul's wife. She's found the poem.

683
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 13: Dear sister, Together on life's journey, we have traveled, you

684
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 13: and me sharing all the joys of life, keeping each

685
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 13: other company, sharing lots of happy times, and sometimes sharing tears,

686
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 13: always leaning on each other together through the years, and

687
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 13: no matter where life leads us, His sister know it's true.

688
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 14: It's been a joy to.

689
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 9: Travel down the road of life with you. He was

690
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 9: quite upset.

691
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 14: I asked his daughter, and she said, I think that

692
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 14: will be okay, And I said, I think it should

693
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 14: be okay. He said to her, what's she doing? What

694
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 14: she doing? And I just kept going.

695
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: Sarah did not know then of John Winfield's missing wife,

696
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: Bromwin and John's emphatic denials that he murdered her. That

697
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: knowledge came a week or so later, when Jeff received

698
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: a copy of Bev's will and it bore John Winfield's name.

699
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 14: And then I just google it. I just put in

700
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 14: John Winfield and I've come from when Wingfield the picture.

701
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 14: It really freaked me out because the picture came up

702
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 14: of Bromway where she's getting out of the car. The

703
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 14: likeness blew me away.

704
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 9: Because I've seen.

705
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 14: Beverly many times with that same look.

706
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 4: Originally, she had very frizzy hair, and we used to

707
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 4: refer to her as Marge Simpson. When I saw the

708
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 4: photos of Bromwin, I thought straight away, oh my god,

709
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 4: she's got hair like Bev.

710
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 14: Same hair, same skin, same small build. It was just

711
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 14: freaked me out because it just looked like Beverly.

712
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 1: Sarah recalled seeing John respond to questions from Bev's cousin

713
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: Luke at the funeral. Luke was asking John about the

714
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: nature of Bev's terminal illness.

715
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 14: And then he got aggressive and through the documents, literally

716
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 14: throwing that Luke, so here you go. Have a look.

717
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 14: His voice changed, And I've been around aggression, so I

718
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 14: know exactly what that's about.

719
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 4: Luke's sister is a nurse and his sister's husband is

720
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 4: a doctor, and they wanted to know what sort of

721
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 4: history of cancers were in the family. So Luke approached

722
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 4: John about the question about what sort of cancer Bev had.

723
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 8: But I believe he hit a brick wall, didn't he.

724
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 11: He snapped back at Luke and got a bit angry

725
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 11: and much of some words back at him.

726
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 4: They might be the papers that I've got now that

727
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 4: might be where I got them from right.

728
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: Could be yeah, But why would John have brought medical

729
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 1: papers for BEV to her funeral?

730
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 8: Honestly, don't know. Strange, like you said, why would he

731
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 8: be carrying.

732
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 11: That piece of paper in the first place? Could she

733
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 11: change the world by yourself? I very much doubted. Was

734
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 11: she cursed and tricked? I really think so? Something's kind

735
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 11: terribly wrong here? Am I thinking of my sister. We'd

736
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 11: be looking after two brothers in one way or another.

737
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 11: She had no family, she had no children, she didn't

738
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 11: have a husband. But to leave it to some person

739
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 11: that I've never heard of in my entire life, to

740
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 11: some strangers just popped up in the last few years

741
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 11: of a life.

742
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 8: When we were.

743
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 11: Watching the photos, there wasn't one photo of him. So

744
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 11: what kind of relationship does that? Like I've always said,

745
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 11: there wasn't any relationship to me anyhow, There's seems to

746
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 11: be this empowering body of control, and everywhere you turn

747
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 11: it's like his way or the highway. I don't know

748
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 11: how her mind was six months out, or how much

749
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 11: influence this guy had over it. I didn't have any

750
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 11: hang ups with my sister at all. To be left

751
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 11: out of the will just cold, with nothing, just devastated me.

752
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 8: The funeral, that's the hard part.

753
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:51,919
Speaker 11: That's the hard party, that's the hard part.

754
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:53,879
Speaker 4: The fact that we were left out of the will

755
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 4: is one thing now, but it's the proceedings that was

756
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 4: the hard part, that was rubbing into the wound.

757
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, the question was asked something about Beverly's house, and

758
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 11: he just gripped up and said, I have no interest

759
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 11: in her house. Why would I need another house while

760
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 11: I've got one on you own? But I guess he

761
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 11: knew the answer to that question anyhow, he already had

762
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 11: the house.

763
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 8: I already knew the answer, and not.

764
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 14: Include her loved ones. You can have nothing to do

765
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 14: with your family for years and news years, but when

766
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 14: you die, your partner, any decent partner, would involve the siblings,

767
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 14: even if they've never had anything to do with each

768
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 14: other for ages. A funeral brings people together, So to birthdays.

769
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 4: It's not too hard for somebody to make a phone

770
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 4: call or send a text to say Bev's ashes are

771
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 4: going to be interred into the wall on such and

772
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 4: such a date.

773
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 8: Nothing.

774
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 4: It's just a decent thing to do to contact the

775
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 4: family and say this is what's happened, and that's where

776
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: Bev is no contact.

777
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 11: He had everything under control. I think was going his way.

778
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 4: Didn't do too bad for a handy man who was

779
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 4: doing some work on the house. After the service, we

780
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 4: went down to the RSL Club for a get together

781
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 4: with the family and.

782
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 8: Have a couple of drinks.

783
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: He didn't come to that.

784
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 4: Never spoke to him since I didn't want to have

785
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 4: any confrontation, so I walked away. I contacted him twice

786
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 4: after the service, rang him and left two messages. First

787
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 4: message was, is there any way I can have the

788
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 4: family photographs? Because when my mom passed away, Bev took

789
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 4: all the family photographs and she was going to compile

790
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 4: albums for us. Well, we never saw the albums, and

791
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 4: we never saw the photos and never heard from John.

792
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 8: John didn't get back to me.

793
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: When Sarah reflects on the final chapter in Beverly Brooker's life,

794
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: she describes a woman who appeared to shrink, not physically,

795
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: but in the way she withdrew from the people who

796
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: were important in her life. And some of that, perhaps

797
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: even all of it, could have been because of Bev's illness.

798
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: Bev was dying. People handle this unavoidable fate in different ways.

799
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: Sarah cannot put her finger on exactly when Bev started

800
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: to become more reserved and withdrawn. She is just suspicious

801
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: about it having happened before.

802
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 14: She apparently had this relationship. She was always independent. She

803
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 14: was never going to get another man. For a start.

804
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 14: She wasn't interested in dating because I'd always say to her,

805
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 14: I'll sit y up on tindat and that speed dating

806
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 14: they had that at the RSL. No, she didn't want

807
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 14: to know, man, how she was changed. She seemed to

808
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 14: be very withdrawn, very very quiet. That's the part that

809
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 14: blows me in Lane. What she was about changed dramatically.

810
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 4: To me, I wouldn't care if our c and Kathy

811
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 4: got everything is mentioned in the first will.

812
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 8: She was the sole beneficiary, and that's fine.

813
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 4: But to have this bloke step in and put his

814
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 4: hands up and say it's all mine, that's what leads

815
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 4: a dirty bit of taste.

816
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 1: In my mouth.

817
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 8: I'm a big believer in karma. What goes around comes around.

818
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: My longtime friend and colleague, David Murray, spoke to a

819
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: legal expert in Wills and the States about the turn

820
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: of events. My name is.

821
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 15: Lucy McPherson, I'm the partner of the estate litigation department

822
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 15: at our with Marshall Lawyers.

823
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 12: Thanks, Lucy, I've sent you some background on this case.

824
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 12: My first question is was it John Winfield's responsibility as

825
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 12: a trustee and executor to inform the other beneficiary it

826
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 12: was Beverly's cousin, that Beverly had died and that the

827
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 12: cousin was a beneficiary.

828
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 15: In short, yes, it was mister Winfield's responsibility. It is

829
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 15: the executor's duty to ensure that all beneficiaries in the

830
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 15: state are informed of their entitlement in a will, and

831
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 15: whilst this is not explicitly set out in legislation, it

832
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 15: is an implied duty because an executor of an estate

833
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 15: has a number of duties to beneficiaries, including a duty

834
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 15: to act in their best interest, and it is part

835
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 15: of that duty to act in their best interest that

836
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 15: there's this implied duty to keep beneficiaries informed about their

837
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 15: entitlement and about the administration of the estate.

838
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 12: Was it John Winfield's responsibility? Has the trustee and executor

839
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 12: to ensure that all beneficiaries actually received what they'd been

840
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 12: left in Beverly's will?

841
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 15: Absolutely, I mean this is the cornerstone of the executor's

842
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 15: duty to administer the estate. It is the executor's obligation

843
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 15: to ensure that all beneficiaries receive what they are entitled

844
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 15: to under the will, and this is part of the

845
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 15: executive's responsibility to administer the estate in accordance with the

846
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,760
Speaker 15: law and in accordance with the terms of the will.

847
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 15: At the cornerstone of all of this is this idea

848
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 15: that executive stands in a fiduciary relationship to the beneficiaries

849
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 15: of an estate, and fiduciary really, in simple terms, it

850
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 15: means a relationship of trust. The executor has an obligation

851
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 15: to do things like avoid conflicts of interests so avoid

852
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 15: conflicts between their personal interests and the interests of the estate,

853
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 15: obligations not to make profit from the estate assets, for instance,

854
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 15: and also importantly an obligation not to act for their

855
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 15: own benefit against the estate.

856
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 12: So who's responsible for ensuring trustees and executors fulfill these obligations?

857
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 15: So the Supreme Court has the ultimate oversight to ensure

858
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 15: that executives and trustees act appropriately and in accordance with

859
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 15: their legal obligations and their duties. When an executor is

860
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 15: behaving badly. Somebody who has an interest in the administration

861
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 15: of the estate, generally a beneficiary, has legal standing to

862
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 15: approach the Supreme Court. The key question for the court

863
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 15: is really whether the conduct of the executor has placed

864
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 15: the administration of the estate into jeopardy, and the court's

865
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 15: overriding concern in all of that is really promoting the

866
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 15: interests of the beneficiaries of the estate, promoting the orderly

867
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 15: administration of the estate, and the rights of those who

868
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 15: are beneficially entitled in the estate are set.

869
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 12: Has John Winfield potentially breached his obligations?

870
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 15: I believe that he has potentially breached his obligations the

871
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 15: delay distributing the cousin's entitlement in the estate. And it

872
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 15: doesn't appear as though interest has been paid on the

873
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 15: legacy either, And.

874
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 12: Are there any ramifications for that?

875
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,439
Speaker 15: There are a number of different ramifications for executors who

876
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 15: do not fulfill their obligation or behave badly during the

877
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 15: course of the administration of an estate, which includes court

878
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 15: intervention and.

879
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 3: Also adverse cost orders.

880
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 15: So the court can revoke the grant of probate, removing

881
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 15: the executor from that position. And it's not unusual in

882
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 15: a situation where an executor has been removed from offers

883
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 15: or mismanagement or misconduct for a court to order that

884
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 15: that way, would executor pay the legal costs of the

885
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 15: party who was required to bring the application before the court.

886
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 12: In this case, Beverly Brooks health had been deteriorating over

887
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 12: time and her family has questions about her soundness of mind.

888
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 12: Could they be grounds for challenging the will?

889
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 15: Absolutely, deteriorating health and questions about an individual's capacity to

890
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 15: understand the nature of the act of making the will

891
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 15: are often ground for challenging the validity of that will.

892
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 15: It must be proven that the will maker, at the

893
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 15: time of giving instructions to make the will and at

894
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 15: the time of signing the will, understood the act of

895
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 15: making a will. They must also understand the extent of

896
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 15: property over which they have disposing power, so they must

897
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 15: be able to identify in broad terms the assets that

898
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 15: they hold that will ultimately be distributed. They also must

899
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 15: understand the claims over which they should give affect, and

900
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 15: what that means is who they would generally be expected

901
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 15: to provide for under the terms of set will. It

902
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 15: must be satisfied that the willmaker didn't have a disorder

903
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 15: of the mind that would create some sort of delusion

904
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,439
Speaker 15: influencing the act of making a will. That question of

905
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 15: whether Beverly was of found mine at the time that

906
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 15: she made her will is a ground to challenge the

907
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 15: validity of the will. Certainly in circumstances where the family

908
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 15: are concerned about her capacity to understand these matters, it

909
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 15: does raise some questions about whether the will should be

910
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 15: challenged on those grounds. So somebody like Beverly's cousin is

911
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 15: somebody who in this scenario would have appropriate legal standing

912
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 15: to brand action to challenge the will.

913
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 1: It has been a hectic week. After Kathy Hardy got

914
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 1: her cousin than Jeff Outbridge's telephone number from me, they

915
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: were soon on the blower and reconnecting. David Murray then

916
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: had a further chat to Jeff. At first, Jeff was

917
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: wary of Dave. Jeff suspected that he was being set

918
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: up by someone acting for John Winfield.

919
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 8: Well, I'm not sure about whether I should say.

920
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: Anything or not.

921
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 4: I don't know who I'm talking to, but I just

922
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 4: don't trust this guy, and I don't know what he's

923
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 4: up to.

924
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 8: So you're not associated with John. I think that's probably

925
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 8: always better to check Jeff. I'm a bit suspicious mate.

926
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: After I contacted Jeff again to reassure him that David

927
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 1: was working with me, not John, everything was okay, all.

928
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 8: Right, David, Sorry to be so coy about it all

929
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 8: in the beginning there.

930
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: Jeff then opened up about his conversation with Kathy and Les, and.

931
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 12: You'd been looking for her for some time.

932
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been trying to track it down and I

933
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 4: was unsuccessful. Headley did tell me that, he said, I

934
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 4: think we might have some contact details for her. Now,

935
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 4: we'll try and make contact with her, and he did,

936
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 4: and they've been talking a few times. And that's when

937
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 4: Kathy and Les rang me last night to say, Hey,

938
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 4: what's going on with this whole thing? Kathy and Les

939
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 4: they're victorians, but they're good honors, down to earth, trustworthy people.

940
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 4: Probably talk for about forty five minutes, and we've promised

941
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 4: each other that we can stay in contact now.

942
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 8: They didn't know anything about Bev's passing.

943
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 4: He didn't notify them, and they got a message back

944
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 4: from John saying don't ever bring this number again. I

945
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 4: don't want to be contacted the fact that John didn't

946
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 4: even contact them and tell them that she'd passed away,

947
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 4: And of course I couldn't contact her because I didn't

948
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 4: have her contact details, and he wouldn't give me her

949
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 4: contact details. The time lapse, he's let the whole thing

950
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 4: run out so that no one can contest the will.

951
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 4: All the beneficiaries are supposed to be paid before John

952
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 4: does anything for himself, and apparently that hasn't been the case.

953
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 4: The first thing he did was transfer the house into

954
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 4: his name. He knew the time was ticking away, and

955
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 4: he delayed everything until after the time had run out,

956
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 4: and then he paid the money. He's out to get

957
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 4: everything for himself that he can. They're going to seek

958
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 4: legal advice because of the way the whole thing's been handled,

959
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 4: and it's all been handled incorrectly. It hasn't been dealt

960
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 4: with in accordance with law. They can now fight it

961
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 4: because he's done the wrong thing.

962
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 8: They can appeal it. Now.

963
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 4: He will be in trouble for not doing his job.

964
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 4: Probably she should have not even been allowed to change

965
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 4: that will at the time.

966
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 8: When she did, Les did say, look, u'se guys been

967
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 8: the losers in this whole thing.

968
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 4: Family deserve it first, and if it goes to Kathy

969
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 4: and Les, a good luck to him. I know they

970
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 4: don't need the money, but I'd rather see family have

971
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:53,959
Speaker 4: it than this guy.

972
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 12: And how do you feel about this getting exposed now?

973
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 4: I think it's a good thing because my friends that

974
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 4: I talked to, and I was actually talking to a

975
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 4: couple of here this morning at a bike show in Austinville,

976
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 4: and my mate's wife said, Oh, you're famous.

977
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 8: You're famous, You're on the podcast. But I said, I

978
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 8: don't know about being famous. The more people know, the better.

979
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 4: Everyone has been commenting to me about it in a

980
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 4: positive way.

981
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 8: That this is a good thing.

982
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 4: Every little bit of information helps to go towards putting

983
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 4: it together.

984
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 8: A profile on what this guy is like paints.

985
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 16: Him in the picture that he really is what he is.

986
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 16: I don't think he was much of a care The

987
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 16: solicitor told lez that they were not in a relationship.

988
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 16: John and Bev were not in a relationship. They were

989
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 16: not partners.

990
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 12: That's very interesting because that's very different to what you

991
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 12: were told.

992
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 4: She's never had a partner since she divorced her husband.

993
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 4: I was told by a person that worked at the

994
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 4: solicitors that this guy was her partner.

995
01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: Dickens say in later episodes, as more information comes to light,

996
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: we are likely to revisit Bev's case. It has been

997
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: made clear to John and Lauren that if they want

998
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: to make any comment or share their side of the

999
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: story about Bromwin or Bev or anything else in the podcast,

1000
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: they are welcome. Now, let's return to the investigation into

1001
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: Bromwan's disappearance. That is our overriding priority.

1002
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 9: Well, it was just honest and straightforward. I'm used to

1003
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 9: listening to people and trying to figure out whether they're

1004
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 9: telling the truth, and quite often patients don't tell me

1005
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 9: the truth. But I knew she was telling me the truth.

1006
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 9: It was the truth that she'd experienced.

1007
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 1: Dr winsom Araha is talking to me from her home country,

1008
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: New Zealand on a zoom link. You have not heard

1009
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: her name before, and that's because she had asked for anonymity.

1010
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: She is describing her impressions of Judy Singh from having

1011
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 1: met her some sixteen to eighteen years earlier. Doctor Araja

1012
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: spoke to me shortly before the release of this episode,

1013
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: the twenty third in the Bromwin Investigative podcast series. But

1014
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: I have known about her for some time. Right back

1015
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: in episode seven, Judy Singh spoke about having seen a

1016
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: figure which she believed was Bromwin's body, allegedly wrapped in

1017
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: sheets in a car driven by John Winfield. And from Judy,

1018
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: a nurse, you heard her brief references to a Kiwi

1019
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: doctor they met in northern New South Wales when they

1020
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 1: were both working at a regional hospital. Judy spoke about

1021
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: the doctor from New Zealand having gone with her to

1022
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:46,919
Speaker 1: Byron Bay Police Station to make a report about what

1023
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: Judy saw back in nineteen ninety three. Here's a reminder

1024
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: of some of what Judy told me.

1025
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 17: I ran into a doctor right and I told her

1026
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 17: the story in a little cafe called the Being Seen

1027
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 17: in Ballina. Many years later, she came back to the

1028
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 17: hospital and I was actually working in that little hospital

1029
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 17: in McLain and she said to me, did you go

1030
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 17: back to the police after you had that interview? And

1031
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 17: I said no, I didn't, and she said, well, we're

1032
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 17: going today anyway. She taught me into going to the

1033
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 17: Byron Bay Police station this time, thinking somebody there might

1034
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 17: listen to us. Then I spoke to a gentleman there

1035
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 17: and I said, you know, I'm just always haunted by

1036
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 17: this story about this woman. At the end of the

1037
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 17: stry they didn't do an official interview. I said, is

1038
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 17: there anyone here that wants to write something down? She's

1039
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 17: hardly interested in any of it.

1040
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: Soon after I spoke to Judy, I found doctor Aurorha

1041
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 1: in New Zealand and we spoke off the record for

1042
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: the first time her request. I did not record that conversation,

1043
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: but I made a good file note of it. The

1044
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: contact was really just to corroborate a small part of

1045
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: what Judy Singh had told me. If the New Zealand

1046
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: doctor had said to me, look, I don't know what

1047
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: you are talking about. I've never heard of this woman

1048
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: Judy or her strange story, then it would have made

1049
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 1: it very difficult to have proceeded with what Judy had

1050
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: told me she saw in a Ford falcon late one

1051
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: night in May nineteen ninety three. But doctor Roha in

1052
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: fact had a solid memory. When I talked to her

1053
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: last year, she confirmed key details. Judy Singh's bombshell interview

1054
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 1: was then duly aired in the podcast and published widely

1055
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 1: in The Australian and in videos that we produced As

1056
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: a result, a senior New South Wales Police officer asked

1057
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: me for the Kiwi doctors contact details. I provided these

1058
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 1: two police. That's where I left things. Doctor Aurha and

1059
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: I did not speak or communicate again until very recently.

1060
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: For the past several months, Bromman's brother Andy Reid, has

1061
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:18,919
Speaker 1: been persistently curious. He wanted to know had detectives from

1062
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 1: the police Unsolved Homicide Unit taken a formal statement from

1063
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 1: the doctor in New Zealand. Andy is like a dog

1064
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:31,439
Speaker 1: with a bone about these things. It's understandable he and

1065
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: his sister have been badly let down by shoddy, lazy

1066
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: police work in the past. He does not want anything

1067
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: to fall through the cracks again. Andy did not know

1068
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 1: the identity of the doctor because of her request at

1069
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: the time for anonymity. Here's doctor Aurorja again from our

1070
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 1: recent zoom conversation talking about Judy Singh. The GP has

1071
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 1: of course waived her earlier request for privacy. I asked

1072
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: her how things had fared with detectives from the Unsolved

1073
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 1: Homicide Unit of New South Wales Police. Can you let

1074
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: me know what's happened.

1075
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 9: We're just playing telephone tag really for quite a while.

1076
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 9: Finally were arranged to have a time to talk and

1077
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 9: I talked and then he asked if i'd make a statement.

1078
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 9: And I was really busy at the time, and I'm

1079
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 9: busy all the time, but I was particularly busy at

1080
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 9: that time.

1081
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Roja said she had been trying unsuccessfully so far,

1082
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: to establish the precise dates on which she was working

1083
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: in the regional hospital in New South Wales, as this

1084
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: would indicate when she must have met Judy Singh. The

1085
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: police want these details. Perhaps a listener with access to

1086
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: this kind of information can help.

1087
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 9: So there were two hospitals involved. There was Grafton Hospital

1088
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 9: and the little one where I only worked for a

1089
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 9: few days really with Judy.

1090
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 1: And that was McLain. Was it, yes, Tell me how

1091
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: you had got to know her in the first place.

1092
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 9: Well, just we were working together and she invited me

1093
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 9: out to her place and so I bought some lunch

1094
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 9: and we had she had lunch. I said, I was

1095
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 9: going up to see my nephews up in Barron Bay.

1096
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 9: We just hit it off. She's lovely, very real, very

1097
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 9: natural and very real.

1098
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Rouha recalled some of what she and Judy talked

1099
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:25,919
Speaker 1: about when they caught up that day.

1100
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 9: The fear that she had when he looked at her

1101
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 9: and he saw her, and she described stepping back into

1102
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 9: the shadows and turning the light off. That made me

1103
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 9: feel she was intimidated by him.

1104
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I've met her, and I also believed that

1105
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: she was a truth teller. Had affected her quite profoundly.

1106
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 9: She had just seen something that was really bad and

1107
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 9: she wanted to get it off, really literally help by

1108
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 9: getting it off her chest. She felt that she would

1109
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 9: help others. Really, she was perturbed about it. It was

1110
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 9: clearly weighing on her because I didn't say, hey, it

1111
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 9: sounds far fetched and ridiculous, because it didn't. I don't

1112
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 9: think she knew her very well, the neighbor. She didn't

1113
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 9: give me an impression that she knew her well.

1114
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 12: What do you.

1115
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,679
Speaker 1: Remember about the Bay and Bay police station visit.

1116
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 9: I remember we came into the foyer together and she

1117
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 9: was hesitant, and I was encouraging her. Come this far,

1118
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 9: let's do it. I feel that I spoke to somebody there,

1119
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 9: but just gave a very brief synopsis. I said, a

1120
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 9: person may have witnessed a murder or something like that,

1121
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 9: and she was the one who had the information. We

1122
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 9: parted there at the police station. We said goodbye, and

1123
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 9: then I took off, and then I never saw her again.

1124
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 9: And I don't know whether she's said anything or what

1125
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 9: she did.

1126
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 1: I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, But you

1127
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: then left to meet your nephew, and she either stayed

1128
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 1: in the police station or she left at the same time.

1129
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 9: Yes, I wasn't sure whether she's going to do it.

1130
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 9: I felt that we'd had a long enough and meaningful

1131
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 9: enough discussion, and it wasn't a five minute discussion that

1132
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,880
Speaker 9: we had. It was quite involved. We talked about a

1133
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 9: lot of things in detail. We especially drilled down on

1134
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,560
Speaker 9: this a bit. We've had lots of meaningful conversations with

1135
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,240
Speaker 9: many thousands of people in the interim in the last

1136
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 9: eighteen years or whatever. It was tons of heartfelt, meaningful conversations.

1137
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 9: And I did feel there was a sense of disquiet

1138
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 9: for her, that this information had been burdening her and

1139
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 9: it hadn't gone anywhere. Maybe she said to me that

1140
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 9: she'd been to the police before. I can't recall. I

1141
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 9: had a feeling that she must have talked to other

1142
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 9: people about it. I'm sure I wasn't the first person

1143
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 9: she'd disclosed it to I felt that she just needed

1144
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 9: someone to spare along, to say you're doing the right thing.

1145
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:10,880
Speaker 9: It's important and other people might disregard it, but you

1146
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 9: think it's important, and I think it's important, so let's

1147
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 9: act on it. To some extent, it was a sense

1148
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 9: of vulnerability because she was on her own and was

1149
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 9: worried about him having seen her. Definitely got that sense

1150
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 9: of what's the word menace? Menace is the word. I

1151
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 9: can recall that because you remember things like that when

1152
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 9: you're a woman, and she's on her own, and she

1153
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 9: said it with what I thought was honesty and integrity,

1154
01:10:41,479 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 9: And if I can corroborate anything that she's trying to say,

1155
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 9: then I'm happy to do that. She was a straightforward

1156
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 9: medical woman and certainly not a drama queen, nothing like that.

1157
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 9: I've never been told that somebody had witnessed a murder,

1158
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:04,480
Speaker 9: and so that's not something I forget easily, and especially

1159
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 9: as she had credibility. She was a sound person of

1160
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 9: sound mind. We had a rapport and there was no

1161
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 9: way that it wouldn't take it seriously. I trust my

1162
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 9: instincts with people like that. It wasn't a five minute

1163
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 9: discussion two or three hours together got a long time.

1164
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:31,639
Speaker 1: While doctor Aurha has emailed information to police, a formal

1165
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,479
Speaker 1: science statement has not yet been taken from her, some

1166
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 1: seven months after the podcast episode was aired, and his

1167
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:44,599
Speaker 1: concerns were not unfounded. I hope that when they follow

1168
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 1: you up, you say, look, let's just get this done.

1169
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 9: I'm quite happy to do that because I'm interested in justice,

1170
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:56,879
Speaker 9: and especially injustice and when things aren't followed through properly.

1171
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1172
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1173
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1174
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1175
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1176
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1177
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:44,799
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here. Episodes first.

1178
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:49,799
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1179
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:55,919
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1180
01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray, with

1181
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 1: assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series

1182
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:10,520
Speaker 1: is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson.

1183
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of

1184
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 1: Bromwin Winfield. We can only do this kind of journalism

1185
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 1: with the support of our subscribers and our major sponsors

1186
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:27,080
Speaker 1: like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,

1187
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 1: timelines and documents about this podcast and other podcasts including

1188
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story,

1189
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:40,680
Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver, go to the Australian

1190
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: dot com dot au and subscribe