1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Hello, I'm back. This is Alan Metcalf. Artificial intelligence has 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: been difficult to find because it is like a green 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: bird in a green tree. It's difficult to see that 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: bird until someone shows you where it is, and then 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: it's easy to see. 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: So keep watching it. 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to show you how to see the green 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: bird in the green tree. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: Alan Metcalf certainly had away with words. David Richardson, the 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 3: Channel nine journalist who looked into Safe Worlds, thought so too. 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 3: Here's how he put it. 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 4: It was almost as if he was, you know, like 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 4: a medieval monk who had claimed to have discovered angelic 14 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 4: script to the language of angels, as if it was 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 4: something new. 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: The language of angels is defined as them transmitting their 17 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 3: speech through humans, and in the same token, Alan thought 18 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 3: he'd found a way to transmit human thought into computers. 19 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: He called it universal logic, or the law of thought. 20 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: To be ultimately effective, computers must mirror the human mind. 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: This means that they must be made artificially intelligent. This 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: is why my discovery of the law of thought is 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: so important, because it explains how the human mind works 24 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: so that it can be artificially reproduced in computers. 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: Alan sounds impressive, but I'm trying to get to the 26 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: bottom of what he actually means and how he managed 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 3: to convince so many people to invest their life savings 28 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 3: solely on the basis of what he said, What was 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 3: safe worlds? And could it have ever been viable. I'm 30 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: Alex Turner Cohen, a finance and investigative reporter from news 31 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 3: dot com Dot are you and you're listening to the 32 00:01:53,040 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 3: Missing forty nine Million? This is episode three, Language of Angels. 33 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: It helps me to stay the distance if I think 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: of it like building Noah's Ark. As I see the 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: flood of electronic information inundating the world and the increasing 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: confusion of all the computer languages that are involved. I 37 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: remember Biblical Babylon, it is clear to me that the 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: end of the world as we know it is nigh. 39 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: The voice you're hearing is an artificial intelligence program we've 40 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 3: used to recreate Alan Metcas's voice to read out all 41 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: the emails he sent. The AI software used other videos 42 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 3: of Alan to stitch together his new digital version. We'll 43 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: be hearing a lot of it this episode. It's different 44 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: to the YouTube videos from earlier, even though it sounds 45 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: uncannily similar here's Ai Alan again. 46 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: Our belief is that the Internet of Things will kickstart 47 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 1: the lackluster world economy, and that Safe World's TV will 48 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: be an important catalyst in making this happen. 49 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: According to Alan, Safewoards was going to be a combination 50 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 3: of Google, Amazon, YouTube, eBay, and PayPal. It was going 51 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 3: to be a hub where videos could be posted to 52 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: advertise and sell products, all with its own currency system, 53 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 3: and it was also going to have its own phone 54 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,559 Speaker 3: like Skype, only it would be better than all its competitors, 55 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: way better. 56 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: Safe Worlds has better search capabilities than Google because of 57 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: universal logic. I do not believe that any company in 58 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: the world has more experience with AI than we have. 59 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: In computer science, it's the holy grail. 60 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: Alan claimed to have discovered an algorithm which mirrored the 61 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: human mind. This would allow him to, in his own words, 62 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: monetize the Internet, as his software would know exactly what 63 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 3: everyone wanted. At the same time, the Safeworld's platform would 64 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 3: link computers together all over the world. It would be 65 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: in a private, safe place on the Internet, hence why 66 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 3: he called it Safe Worlds. He estimated the whole thing 67 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 3: was worth ten billion dollars. 68 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: This is not multi level marketing. 69 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 3: Alan wrote that in an email in all caps to 70 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: investors in two thousand and eight, in the early days 71 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 3: of him selling Safe Worlds, I've already touched on the 72 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 3: fact that Alan encouraged investors to preach the Safeworld's gospel 73 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: to their friends and family. That's one of the hallmarks 74 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: of a multi level marketing scheme, and from there it's 75 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: a slippery slope between that and a pyramid scheme where 76 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: the money from new recruits is used to pay out 77 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 3: older investors until they run out of new victims and 78 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 3: the whole thing implodes. 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: The business sells actual products for actual businesses. 80 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 3: This was one of the reasons Alan gave for why 81 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: Safe Worlds was legitimate. Despite insisting it wasn't a multi 82 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: level marketing scheme, he did acknowledge the importance of his 83 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 3: recruiting tactic. 84 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: Thanks particularly to those shareholders who keep recommending our company 85 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: to their friends. We could not survive without you, guys, 86 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: so on behalf of all shareholders. Thank you. You are 87 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: truly angel investors. 88 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: Safe Worlds evangelists were even handsomely rewarded with a commission 89 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 3: for their. 90 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: Work for a minimum investment of two thousand dollars. Safe 91 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: World's TV shareholders and their introduced friends will get two 92 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: thousand Safe Worlds TV shares valued at one dollar each, 93 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: plus a bonus of one thousand founders preference shares. 94 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: The actual Safe World's website worked in a similar way. 95 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: People needed a referral to join up, and those sending 96 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 3: out the referrals would make an easy commission. One document 97 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: I found estimated that these referrers, called master distributors, could 98 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 3: make one hundred and eighty nine thousand dollars in a 99 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 3: year if they got one thousand people to sign up. 100 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: You should think of your master distributor network as a 101 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: fish trap. The more arms of your fish trap that 102 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: you extend into the sea, the more fish you will catch. 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: This is how the system is designed to make money 104 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: for you, even while you sleep. We want you to 105 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: be rich, but it isn't magic. 106 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 3: Alan told investors they had to get in quick. 107 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. 108 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 3: Safe Worlds was going to list on the US Stock 109 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: Exchange and soon they'd all be rich, he said. First 110 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 3: he promised this would happen in two thousand and seven, 111 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 3: Then he pushed it to two thousand and eight. But 112 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: Safeworlds didn't end up floating as Alan promised. Instead, the 113 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: company went bust through a complicated process called Chapter eleven bankruptcy. 114 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: Safeworlds was resurrected in twenty ten technically as a newcomery. 115 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 3: Alan then began pushing for more money so that it 116 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 3: could once again float on the Stock Exchange, but it 117 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: never quite came to fruition, always just out of reach, 118 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: tantalizing investors like a piece of forbidden fruit. Alan acknowledged 119 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: their frustration in yet another email. 120 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: I am sure that to some of you this sounds 121 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: like another episode of a long running radio sitcom saga. 122 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: In twenty sixteen, right before his death, he pushed one 123 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 3: more time for another five million. I still don't really 124 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: know what Safe Worlds is. I want to talk to 125 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: someone in the know who's seen the code up close, 126 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: to learn if the tech could have ever delivered on 127 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: its promises. I'm here in Mount Glorious, about one hour 128 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: outside of Brisbane. I'm about to meet one of the 129 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 3: employees of Safe Worlds who's very keen to chat. I'm 130 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: sitting on a park bench after a long taxi ride, 131 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: waiting for Tarlie Joy Grace Tarlie worked as a senior 132 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: software developer at Safeworlds from June twenty thirteen to February 133 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. Before joining Alan, she'd been a software developer 134 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 3: for eighteen years, most recently in the oil industry. In short, 135 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: she knew her stuff. So how did Tarlie end up 136 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 3: at Safeworlds. 137 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 5: I saw it on Sikh, looked a bit, Oh, this 138 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 5: looks interesting, but there's not much information on the ad. 139 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 5: So I looked up the company online and saw the 140 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 5: big bosses name. So wrote my cover letter with his 141 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 5: name on it. Sold how some of my work in 142 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 5: the oil drilling industry fitted with his concept of universal logic. 143 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 5: And then Alan saw it and he thought, how did 144 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 5: you get my name? Because he accidentally seid it to me. 145 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 5: So obviously Alan was impressed that I did some basic 146 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 5: research on the company and put it into my cover letter. 147 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 5: He was very sociable, very extroverted, you know. He gave 148 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 5: off that really nice, charming personality that if he wasn't 149 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 5: so fat, a lot of ladies would go for him. 150 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,119 Speaker 5: He just wanted to make you feel good about yourself, 151 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 5: very charming. And so I took the role from there 152 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 5: because I needed the. 153 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: Role an accidental CC a pretty basic blunder from the 154 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 3: head of a tech company, and it wasn't the last 155 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 3: red flag Tarlie would get at Safe Worlds. 156 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,479 Speaker 5: The product was completely rubbish, so it was really badly designed, 157 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 5: so it was like black on white sort of text. 158 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 5: It was had a very poor user interface, and it 159 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 5: was using quite out of d technology. And not only that, 160 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 5: it was like the culture of Safewold's TV. Like Alan, 161 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 5: you could just tell was a bit of a narcissist 162 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 5: and if you told him what he wanted to hear, 163 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 5: you know, if you sucked up to him, he'd absolutely 164 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 5: love you. And I wasn't sucking up to him. But 165 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 5: somehow he figured out because I'm a Christian, that I 166 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 5: could be one of his right hand men. 167 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: One day, Tarlie knew that Alan had a devoted following 168 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: of true believers, but she didn't see him the same way. 169 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 5: Well, he definitely wasn't a genius. He was a scammer 170 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 5: and a lunatic. He was basically version point five of Trump. 171 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 5: As a question, everything that Alan was looking back after 172 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 5: Trump got burted out reminded me of Donald Trump. So 173 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 5: Alan had the same sort of narcissistic. Everything should revolve 174 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 5: around me attitude as Trump. Alan was just as fat 175 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 5: as Trump, so Allan is almost aff at the foretelling 176 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 5: of Donald Trump. 177 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 3: In a way, Alan's deeply religious Pentecostal mannerisms made their 178 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: way into company life. Tarlie's transgender and she uses she 179 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 3: they pronounced, but she kept this side of herself hidden 180 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: at work because she wasn't sure how Alan would react. 181 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 5: It was almost like Alan was trying to run, you know, 182 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 5: a quasi sort of Christian style cult then an actual, 183 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 5: you know, Christian group. In a way, it came across 184 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 5: in his personality as being one of these dodgy far 185 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 5: right questions. They have a certain kind of personality to them. 186 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 5: It's really hard to describe. And just in some of 187 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 5: the writings he was putting in so and the way 188 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 5: he was approaching me, saying thanks for your good work 189 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 5: in the church. You know, I know we can do 190 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 5: things for Jesus with you. 191 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: Tarlie was also skeptical about the product itself, so in a. 192 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 5: Gist, what it sort of felt like was trying to 193 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 5: do a half fast combination of Amazon and YouTube, so 194 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 5: having lots of videos and selling products attached to those videos. 195 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 5: But what the product really was was some way to 196 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 5: suck money out of gullible investors and out of gullible 197 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 5: you know, far right investors in the States. Officially it 198 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 5: was Amazon and YouTube put together, and that's how I 199 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 5: explained it to people in the industry, but unofficially it 200 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 5: was something that read propaganda to far right Christians and 201 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 5: Trumpers in the States. Everything the way the product was 202 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 5: designed was designed to suck up to those people, and 203 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 5: it performed very poorly, so it would take like five 204 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 5: minutes sometimes to actually load up the web application. Alan 205 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 5: felt that the big selling point of it was this 206 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,479 Speaker 5: universal logic, but no one could quite explain what universal 207 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 5: logic was. It was just some mystical, magical concept that 208 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 5: was going to revolutionize the world economy. But what it 209 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 5: was in reality, when I know snucked into the code 210 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 5: base for that, that was just a glorified, crappified version 211 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 5: of Google, no search index that barely worked. It was 212 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 5: nothing fancy that made me start questioning that this is 213 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 5: a bit dodgy. Within a few months, I realized it 214 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 5: was all just a big scam and I wanted to 215 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 5: get out. 216 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: While Tarlie started to suspect this was a scam. Not 217 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,359 Speaker 3: everybody shared that view. A senior university lecturer from Queensland 218 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: spent more than fifty hours going through various documents and 219 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: he concluded that Safeworlds had merit. He wrote a report 220 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: which was touted around to many potential investors, lending weight 221 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: to the company. But this man didn't want to talk 222 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 3: to me, and he didn't even want to be mentioned 223 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: by name in this podcast, as he says he's received 224 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: threats from angry shareholders. So I ask another expert. 225 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 6: My name is Asara Shudozhan. I am senior addicted at 226 00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 6: the University of New Science. 227 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: While many of the documents on the Safeworld's code base 228 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: have been lost in the passage of time, I gave 229 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 3: her just enough to form a preliminary opinion. I meet 230 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: her at her office in eastern Sydney, overlooking the main 231 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: university thoroughfare. We can hear students walking and talking below 232 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 3: us as we discussed the complexities of AI, the. 233 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 6: Idea, their methods and you know proposed in this document. 234 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 6: They are all based on reliabilary sources. I can tell 235 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 6: you at this stage that my conclusion is that the 236 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 6: idea had the merit, but it was very, very ambitious 237 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 6: for that time. 238 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: What did you think about the AI element? Was there 239 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: anything kind of cutting edge about his discovery? 240 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 6: He talks about AI in different ways, and it's not exactly, 241 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 6: you know, clear which AI algorithm he is referring to. 242 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 6: Does he know what is AI? Actually? I felt he 243 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 6: had some ideas for AI, but he may not sure 244 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 6: what is exactly the algorithm he was thinking about, because 245 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 6: there are many AI algorithms. 246 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: I asked Sarah for her thoughts on Alan finding the 247 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 3: secret code in the Bible. She says, it's not a 248 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: very academic way to make a breakthrough. Did you understand 249 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: exactly what universal logic was? 250 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 6: I didn't understand from the documents that they had. I 251 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 6: didn't understand what he meant where it's our logic. 252 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 3: So Alan may have had it the code to cracking AI, 253 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: but exactly what it was no one knew, and Alan 254 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 3: wasn't willing to share that information. 255 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 7: Let's see if this guy's got what he claims he's got, 256 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 7: this could change the world. 257 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: This is a high flying businessman who asked to keep 258 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: his name out of it because he's embarrassed to have 259 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: been involved with the Safe World project. We'll call him Jason. 260 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 3: He's a busy man, tapping the table a lot while 261 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: I chat to him in Brisbane after I managed to 262 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: catch him between meetings. 263 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 7: My natural inclination is, don't tell me, prove it to me. 264 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 7: I need to see it, show me, show me how 265 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 7: this thing works. And I kept saying to him, I 266 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 7: don't want to see your algorithm. That's irrelevant. But I'd 267 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 7: read that there's some basic testing that you can do, 268 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 7: some really simple things. I said, let's run through that. 269 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 7: But he wasn't prepared to do any of that. 270 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 3: Jason stumbled across Safe Worlds through a chance LinkedIn message. 271 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: One of his old friends had put some money in. 272 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 3: The two had lost touch and reconnected over the social 273 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 3: networking platform. Given his background in business, Jason was asked 274 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 3: to help reel in some big investors and he agreed. 275 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 3: Alan paid Jason in Safe World shares for all the 276 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: work he did, about one hundred thousand dollars worth. But 277 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 3: soon things weren't making sense. 278 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 7: Didn't stag up at all, to be frank, I mean, 279 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 7: there was just other than this gentleman. Alan Metcalfe saying 280 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 7: that he had something that was really unique and telling 281 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 7: a really really good story. There was nothing to support 282 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 7: or substantiate what he was claiming. Nothing, So very early 283 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 7: on I was pushing back respectfully. He was an elderly gentleman, 284 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 7: he was enough fellow. But I just said, no, this 285 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 7: is not going to go anywhere. You know, there's a 286 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 7: term we used to use about lifting the skirt, So 287 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 7: let's see what this is all about. Are you prepared? Yeah? Yeah, 288 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 7: if I meet with the right people, I will let 289 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 7: people get behind this and understand it. I said, great, 290 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 7: then I'm happy to make some introductions for you, which 291 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 7: I did, and of course he wasn't prepared to divulge 292 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 7: all as you would say. Is I have this. It's 293 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 7: come out of the Bible. That's it. 294 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: Now. 295 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 7: People in the main were trying not to laugh, and 296 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 7: in the end I started to feel embarrassed about the 297 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 7: introductions I was making, so I stopped doing it. I 298 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 7: just said, Alan, this is just crazy. I can't do this. 299 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 3: Efforts were frustrated at every turn. Every potential investor he 300 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: introduced to the scheme walked away. Their questions aren't answered. 301 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 7: Now I'll just met you, and you want me to 302 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 7: give you money into I'm going to start asking some 303 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 7: really basic questions. What is the purpose of this, What 304 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 7: am I investing in? Where is the money going, Who's 305 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 7: going to monitor it, what are the processes involved? Does 306 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 7: it sit in trust? Is it in escrow? What's the 307 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 7: money going to be spent on? Don't just say on 308 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 7: this on AI specifically? What further development? There was no milestone, 309 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 7: there was no plan, there was nothing. I introduced him 310 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 7: to some very very intelligent, senior people with deep pockets 311 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 7: that he was the problem that he wasn't prepared to answer. 312 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 7: What are basic questions for someone looking for equity. 313 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 3: Some of the people Jason introduced Alan to were high up, 314 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 3: really high up. I'm talking US Defense Force. But Alan 315 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: would always sabotage these meetings. 316 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 7: I said to Alan, from a credibility perspective, I'm going 317 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 7: to introduce you to people, and for your own knowledge, 318 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 7: they are all believers in God like I am, So 319 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 7: don't run down that rabbit hole. I'm introducing them because 320 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 7: I know, like and trust these people. So we don't 321 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 7: need to talk about the religious piece. Let's stick to 322 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 7: the number of this, which is you have general artificial 323 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 7: intelligence or true artificial intelligence, and that's what they'll want 324 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 7: to focus on. So that was his. 325 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 3: Strict instruction, and did he follow that instruction incapable. 326 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 7: So the first question, when we were over the pleasantries 327 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 7: and everyone's got their cup of coffee or water, is 328 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 7: do you believe in God? And I looked at this 329 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 7: gentleman because I thank God I've prepositioned him, and said, mate, 330 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 7: you may get up and pays this question. Gains are well, 331 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 7: and I'll answered honestly. So he said, yeah, I do. 332 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 7: You know, I went to a Catholic school and I'm Catholic. Yeah, 333 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 7: I do great, and then started to proceed to talk 334 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 7: about doing the good for the world, what artificial intelligence 335 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 7: can do for the world, what his grand plan is 336 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 7: for the world in terms of helping those less fortunate, 337 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 7: all of which was great, and everyone's going, yeah, yeah, 338 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 7: we agree with that. We agree absolutely great. So okay, 339 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 7: let's get back to what have you got an explain 340 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 7: it to me? Let's see it. Can we test it? No? No, 341 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 7: no no. So it just kept on this religious piece 342 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 7: and an end, you know, the guy that had done 343 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 7: the initial introduction to me, his head hit the ground. 344 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 7: I couldn't stop laughing. He split his head up and 345 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 7: on the boardroom table because he just said, oh my god. 346 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 7: We warned him and warned him not to go there. 347 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 7: He did, and then he just couldn't pull back from it. 348 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 7: Just it becomes a conversation about God, not about the product, 349 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 7: the outcome, the purpose, where the money comes from, where 350 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 7: it's going to go. It was unbelievable, but that must 351 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 7: have been his motus operandi, and it had worked for 352 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 7: him in the past. But you know, I'd like to 353 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 7: say that once you start playing at my level with 354 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 7: the people I was making introductions to, you know, we're 355 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 7: respectful of God, but hey, out of the way, we 356 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 7: need to know this, is this a deal or not. 357 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: What little Alan could show him, Jason recalls, was pretty worrying. 358 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 7: And I kept saying, you know, which is the old 359 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 7: bank thing. I want to see three way fully integrated budgets. 360 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 7: I want to see a balance sheet. I want to 361 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 7: see where the cash has moved, where's it gone to. 362 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 7: Someone explained this to me, No one, nothing would give 363 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 7: you nothing. It's just in vaporized. The money vaporized because 364 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 7: people said, no, it's been invested into the technology. Well 365 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 7: they show me the technology. No, we can't. There's nothing 366 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 7: then I kept getting shown some YouTube thing. I don't 367 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 7: know if you've seen it, but it looks like seriously, 368 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 7: it looked like someone was doing Lost in Space or something. 369 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 7: You know what I mean. It's just delusional. 370 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: Several people have mentioned this YouTube thing to me now. 371 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 3: It was a test run of the Safeworld's TV product 372 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 3: and has been described as terrible, atrocious, and outdated. If 373 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: you try to find the safe World's website now it's 374 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 3: long gone. You can't even view it on the wayback 375 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: machine as it requires downloading an outdated software, so I 376 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 3: can't actually see it for myself. But I find the 377 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: next best thing someone who had tried it out called 378 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 3: a beta tester. This is a video of an investor 379 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 3: testing out Safeworld's TV when it briefly went live in 380 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 3: twenty fourteen. You can still find the clip online. It 381 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 3: shows a panel that kind of looks like YouTube with 382 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 3: different video clips running down the side. 383 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 8: Today we're just looking at basic running of this, which 384 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 8: is an interest distributor channel. And being a distributed channel, 385 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 8: I can encourage businesses to download free software to make 386 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 8: Internet TV channels for their business. And I can do 387 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 8: that last and go to this button here get free 388 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 8: channel and on their computer they will download the free 389 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 8: software and set up their own channel. So you just 390 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 8: click on the video you want to watch and it 391 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 8: loads up. Now, if it happens to come up with 392 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 8: saying here that this video does not exist, and sometimes 393 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 8: it does because it isn't embedding, probably just given another 394 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 8: couple of clicks on the button it's cell phon, it'll 395 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 8: come up. 396 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 3: If at this point you still don't actually understand what 397 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 3: Safeworlds was or did, don't worry. You're not alone to 398 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 3: try to find out. I went to meet the woman 399 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: in the video, Kim and her husband Roy. They live 400 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 3: an hour outside of Sydney and didn't want to share 401 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: their last names. When I arrived, two massive piles of 402 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 3: paper greet me on their outdoor table. They've printed out 403 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: every email they've ever received about Safe Worlds jating all 404 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 3: the way back to two thousand and seven. Some of 405 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 3: the documents have coffee stains, and others are so fade 406 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 3: I can barely read them. They let me borrow their files, 407 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 3: and when I go home it takes me weeks to 408 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 3: pour over them. So you were one of the first 409 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 3: beta testers, so were you handpicked? Did you volunteer. Did 410 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 3: he send out a call out asking for help. 411 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 9: We were still working back then, We're still run a 412 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 9: business and everything, but I used to just do it 413 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 9: in my free time. I felt like we didn't have 414 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 9: big money to invest, but I did have time and interest, 415 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 9: so that was how I was contributing. Yeah, but he 416 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 9: did ask and I said I'd do it. There was 417 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 9: that old fashioned feel to it, but I put that 418 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 9: down to the fact that it was mostly run by 419 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 9: old white men who Christian so to speak, so they 420 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 9: were terribly traditional, and in my mind, I just used 421 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 9: to think, once it gets a little bit more worldly, 422 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 9: then it'll modern up. 423 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: Sounds like you spent a lot of time, like if 424 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 3: you had to go back. Were we talking like over 425 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: one hundred hours or over months and months of kind 426 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 3: of yeah, years? Okay, Yeah. 427 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 9: I think the worst part for me personally was when 428 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 9: he promoted for us to go out and find local 429 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 9: businesses and try and interest them in getting their own channel. 430 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 9: And I did do that. And I'm an introvert and 431 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 9: a shy person and I don't talk much, so this 432 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 9: was a big effort for me. But I did it 433 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 9: because I wanted to get prosperity for our family, and 434 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 9: at the time I still believed that it was happening, 435 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 9: so I involved a lot of people and tried to 436 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 9: interest other people in joining in. It was embarrassing when 437 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 9: I look back. 438 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 4: We did put a big sign on the wall of 439 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 4: our business which faced McDonald's, who were next door to us, 440 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 4: something to the effect of, how would you like to 441 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 4: have your own TV channel? And we had inquiries about it. 442 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 3: While his wife Kim was beta testing the product. Royce 443 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: saw a lot of the program and Alan over the years, 444 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 3: and he formed his own opinions. 445 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 4: He was comparing himself to people like Edison and Einstein, 446 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,479 Speaker 4: you know, and people that had discovered penicillin, and you know, 447 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 4: like he was making a comparison that he had just 448 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 4: as a normal man, had discovered this law of thought 449 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 4: that governed how he built an AI system and claimed 450 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 4: that he was the savior of the or could be 451 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 4: the savior of the world if it all turned out 452 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 4: right for. 453 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 3: Him, you know and for us, like a kind of Messiah. 454 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, it really really and that put me off of 455 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 4: h you know, I thought it was rather clunky the 456 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 4: whole thing and kind of outdated. It wasn't like a 457 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 4: modern issue. You couldn't you couldn't put any of the 458 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 4: data on your phone or anything like that, you know, 459 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 4: And I thought, well, if they're going to introduce AI, 460 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 4: they should be upgrading everything to make it modern, you know, 461 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 4: because people are going to take one look and go 462 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 4: this is rubbish. 463 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 10: You know. 464 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 3: Even though I contacted them out of the blue, Kim 465 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 3: and Roy were very keen to chat. The couple are 466 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 3: now retired. They've been waiting fifteen years since they first 467 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 3: put money into Safe Worlds. They're tired and they want 468 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 3: answers or at the very least closure about what's happened. 469 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: Looking at the platform, it was diabolical. 470 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 3: This is Mike Brooke recalling the first time he saw 471 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 3: Safe Worlds. His parents put money in, as well as 472 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 3: some other extended family members. We're speaking in his Melbourne home. 473 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 3: The IT professional is in the process of moving, so 474 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 3: we use a cardboard box as a table between us 475 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 3: in an otherwise empty room. 476 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 11: It didn't run on modern devices, so at that stage 477 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 11: the devices that were current it didn't work in the 478 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 11: hours are on those that needed a legacy version. Those 479 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 11: sorts of things are immediate red flags when you are 480 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 11: looking at something new. A product has to continue to 481 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 11: be developed. My background in having worked for a startup 482 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 11: is you cannot ever take your foot off accelerator. You're 483 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 11: always building, building, building, iterating and improving your product. 484 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 3: Mike's family members told him they'd invested and asked him 485 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 3: if he wanted to get involved too. 486 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 11: I was sent some information to say, you know, look 487 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 11: into this. This is something that you should invest in. 488 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 11: It's going to be the next YouTube. Slash eBay, slash Amazon, 489 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 11: slash PayPal was how it was introduced to me. I 490 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 11: was given information and endorsement by a very senior Hewlett 491 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 11: Packard employee in the US as well as to why 492 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 11: he thought it was a good platform. I was not 493 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 11: convinced because I looked at the technology and it just 494 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 11: didn't make sense to me. So I actually reached out 495 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 11: to that HP employee and he actually said to me 496 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 11: that he's not endorsing it, it's just he has invested 497 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 11: money in it. So it was very different from what 498 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 11: I had seen in the email about this guy was 499 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 11: believed in the technology. He was very much pulled back 500 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 11: from that, and just you know, I just happened to 501 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 11: have some money in it. I don't like fraudsters, and 502 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 11: I don't like things that seem to be too good 503 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 11: to people, that are too good to be true. My 504 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 11: first step was to reach out to my family and 505 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 11: tell them that I don't think. 506 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: That this is real. 507 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 11: And after that, I was just using a blog spot 508 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 11: or a Google Blogger website of that stage, and I thought, 509 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 11: you know what, I'll start to write some things about this. 510 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: This is actually how I heard about Mike. His blog 511 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: posts from twenty thirteen are the only things on Google 512 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 3: casting some doubt on Safe worlds in Alan Metcalf. Although 513 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: Mike came onto my radar early on in my investigation, 514 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 3: it was a few months before we were able to 515 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 3: meet because he was in Melbourne. Mike received angry messages 516 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 3: from a lot of people and even one person threatening 517 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: to do him harm. But Alan wasn't shying away from criticism. 518 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 3: He responded directly to Mike's blog comments via email and 519 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 3: even offered Mike a discount if he wanted to buy 520 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 3: Safe World shares. 521 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 2: I think he always thought he could bring me around 522 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: to what it could be, but he did actually answer 523 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 2: my arguments in an email back to me initially and again. 524 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: I responded to those and they were on the blog site. Again, 525 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 2: they were not clearing up anything, they were just ambiguous. 526 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 3: Alan didn't stop there. He extended another offer to Mike. 527 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 3: He wanted Mike to debate his blog comments against one 528 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 3: of Alan's biggest supporters, who was a highly decorated lawyer 529 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 3: known as a queen's counsel. 530 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 11: My problem with that is that I'm not a queen's 531 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 11: counsel and my opponent was going to be a queen's counsel. 532 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 11: So I knew that to do that with editing would 533 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 11: just reinforce what he was saying about the platform. So 534 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 11: it did not make sense to do that. My background as. 535 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: A technical and a cybersecurity consultant, and I knew that 536 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: I would be out of my debt trying to argue 537 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: something with somebody with that experience. 538 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 3: By this point, Mike's family wanted him to stop blogging. 539 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: They were not happy about what I was doing. But 540 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: what I was doing was to stop other people investing. 541 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 3: Did that cause any kind of conflict? 542 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 2: I think it did. Nobody said anything directly, but I 543 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: believe so. There were some quiet Christmases. But again it 544 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: was to stop more people investing, but also if they 545 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 2: are family to stop them putting more money in because 546 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: it was not a product that was ever going to 547 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: be a product. 548 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 3: Despite Mike's criticism of Safe Worlds, his family kept investing. 549 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 3: Professor Clinton Free, the white collar crime expert I spoke 550 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 3: to last episode, offers an explanation on why people keep 551 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 3: investing in stuff like this. 552 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: Fraud is most possible where the person does have a 553 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: relationship of trust, and I really like that idea of 554 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: some cost fallacy in economics. I think once people have 555 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: committed a certain amount of money, they end up having 556 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: a bit of a blind belief in the merits of 557 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 2: what they're doing, and they're much more likely to continue 558 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 2: on a pattern of handing over money than one off 559 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: transaction might be. So I think one of the things 560 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 2: that we see in this case is repeated going back 561 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: to people for investments with escalating claims about what was possible, 562 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: and that fear of missing out on the next Google 563 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: you know, once in a lifetime investment opportunities, I think 564 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: is very powerful. I think when you attach that to 565 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 2: a setting where people trust each other, touch that to 566 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 2: the church and religious morality, that's a pretty potent cocktail 567 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: of forces that I think people would be seduced. 568 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 3: By Alan drew on religious people and tech experts and 569 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 3: sporting personalities to pull more investors into his orbit. In 570 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 3: a previous episode, I discovered how he used the name 571 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 3: Michael Blake, a former all time great footballer, and he 572 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 3: wasn't just doing it in his home country Australia. This 573 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 3: was an international operation chasing the biggest market of all, 574 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 3: the US. He brought on celebrity sport host Paul Higgins 575 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: from ESPN, a major cable sports channel. Here's Paul doing 576 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 3: a promotional Safe World's video. 577 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 10: Oh everyone, I'm Paul Higgins, and welcome to safe world TV. 578 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 10: The global marketplace, the world leader in Internet TV and 579 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 10: semantic search, the home a free enterprise, a level playing 580 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 10: field that all. 581 00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 6: The world can use. 582 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 10: Electronic business. We seek World's TV. Every business in every 583 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 10: country of the world can now be involved in the 584 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 10: world economy today. 585 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 3: Paul works as a sports anchor at a channel in 586 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 3: southern California. I spend months chasing him for a response, 587 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 3: sending emails to his company, contacting him on social media. 588 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: Finally he gets back to me. Paul says that he's 589 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 3: no longer involved or employed by Safe Worlds. He says 590 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 3: he's not privileged with the information as to where the 591 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 3: investor's money is, So who does have that knowledge? That 592 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 3: is the forty nine million dollar question. 593 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: Keep the faith, our day will come. 594 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 3: That's how Allan signed off most of his emails to shareholders. 595 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 3: He also told his followers. 596 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: There is no greater power in this world than belief. 597 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: There is no greater gift in life than to encourage 598 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: people to believe. 599 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 3: If you believe in something hard enough, does that make 600 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 3: it real? Was Alan's idea at best a delusion. It's 601 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 3: time for me to follow the trail of investors to 602 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 3: go to Alan's mecca and see his biggest disciple. That's 603 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 3: next time on the missing forty nine million. 604 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: You know, when you meet someone who's a true believer 605 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: in something and there's not a touch of cynicism in 606 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: there at all. 607 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 3: And I suppose if good salespeople are like that. 608 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: It was a bit of the fervor of the converted 609 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: fanatic or something, you know. I remember he did try 610 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: to trail something on the computer, but he couldn't get 611 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: it work, and probably blame telture or something. 612 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 7: But anyway, so he just kept talking about how great 613 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 7: it was. 614 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 3: Maybe they're not actually shareholders, like maybe they just took 615 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 3: their money, took their money, took their money. Thanks for listening. 616 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 3: A new episode is coming out weekly. Wherever you get 617 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,399 Speaker 3: your podcasts, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss 618 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 3: an episode. Head to news dot com dot Au to 619 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 3: read more of my reporting on this story. Do you 620 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 3: know more? Get in touch through our dedicated tip inbox 621 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 3: Missing Millions at news dot com dot au or contact 622 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 3: me directly on Alex dot Turner Dash Cohen at news 623 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 3: dot com dodau or look me up on Twitter to 624 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 3: get my details. I'm your host, Alex Turner Cohen. Nina 625 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 3: Young is the executive producer, sound design and editing by 626 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 3: Tiffany Dimack. Our editorial director is Dan Box. Grant McAvaney 627 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: is our legal advisor, and Kerry Warren is the editor 628 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 3: of News dot com Doreau.