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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with former Miss Australia

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Speaker 1: Felucia Jarmise, she tells us about how and why she

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Speaker 1: fell in love with another bad guy, how that went

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Speaker 1: terribly wrong, and her dramatic tactical arrest that almost resulted

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Speaker 1: in the hand amputated. She talked about the reflections on

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Speaker 1: the life of crime, why she has a tattoo, fucked

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Speaker 1: the police, why and how she decided to live a

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Speaker 1: more stable life and what she's doing now giving back

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Speaker 1: to society. It's an interesting story. Have a listen, Felicia Jamize,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to I Catch Killers. Did I've pronounced that right?

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Speaker 1: I've been practicing all morning.

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Speaker 2: You've pronounced it better than a lot of people. I

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Speaker 2: remember when I was in the Supreme Court, they were

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Speaker 2: pronouncing it, Jamirez, and I thought, well, don't make me

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Speaker 2: sound like I'm from the Mexican cuchel. Are you making

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Speaker 2: me sound guilty before I've even you know.

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Speaker 1: I got a please?

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Speaker 2: So no is how you pronounce it? But it's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Wellrez, I've been practicing. Okay. Part one. We've got

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Speaker 1: a good understanding of your your life, your upbringing. We

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Speaker 1: touched on the beauty pageants and lifestyle lifestyle there, your

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Speaker 1: relationship and your journey into the OMCG gang scene been al.

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Speaker 1: Did we settle on an old lady or partner or

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Speaker 1: what was it?

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Speaker 2: Keep it old lady.

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Speaker 1: Old lady a member of a gang that ended in

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Speaker 1: tears And I'm making light of a situation, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a relationship breakup and Cam's addiction became too much

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Speaker 1: and his personality changed and they started to be violence,

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Speaker 1: domestic violence and that and you've walked away from it.

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Speaker 1: So that's a point we're at. Now, what age were

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Speaker 1: you at that stage.

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Speaker 2: I would have been early twenties at that stage, early

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Speaker 2: to mid twenties, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Did after that experience, did you think, Okay, maybe my

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Speaker 1: lifestyle choices or the person I was with, maybe I

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Speaker 1: should step away from that.

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Speaker 2: Yes? I did, But in regards to that, like I

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Speaker 2: said before, with Jean, it was a matter of finding

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Speaker 2: somebody that was able to protect me, that I could

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Speaker 2: feel safe with. So looking back, yeah, it was like

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Speaker 2: out of the frying pan and into the fire basically,

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Speaker 2: But in that time in my life I didn't see

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Speaker 2: it as such. I was just trying to survive.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, and that was having someone that could stand

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Speaker 1: up to the wrath of an angry ex partner. That's

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Speaker 1: a bikey that comeing in and we met Deane this

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Speaker 1: morning and your mum who have turned up, which is

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Speaker 1: always always a good sign. That turned up for the podcast.

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Speaker 1: But you did delve into the world of dating STRAIGHTI

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Speaker 1: one eighties. I want you to be kind of STRAIGHTI

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Speaker 1: one eighties. Don't just shatter their shatter their confidence. But

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Speaker 1: why didn't that work for you after what you've been through.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'll just give I think you mentioned like an accountant.

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Speaker 2: Ye, that was just a really stereotypical general lives of

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Speaker 2: the picture.

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Speaker 1: They get a get a tough time. Did you try that?

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Speaker 2: I did, correct. So Dean and I had a period

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Speaker 2: of time where we were separated because he was given

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Speaker 2: ten years in prison, and we decided to step both

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Speaker 2: step away from the relationship and for the sake of

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Speaker 2: remaining friends and being civil to each other, because if

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Speaker 2: we tried to maintain an unmaintainable relationship, we would have

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Speaker 2: just ended up hating and resenting each other and we

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Speaker 2: would have lost our friendship. So we decided to remain friends.

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Speaker 2: We were still in contact while he was in prison,

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Speaker 2: and I helped him as much as I could from

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Speaker 2: the outside, and still visited, et cetera, folk on the phone,

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Speaker 2: sent letters, all the stuff that you kind of do,

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Speaker 2: but without the romantic aspect of that. And also too,

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Speaker 2: I needed an opportunity to be able to move on

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Speaker 2: with my life and see if I had a future

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Speaker 2: with somebody else, and I gave it a really good

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Speaker 2: red hot goer kind of you know, trying to date

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Speaker 2: people that had lives very well outside of the experience

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Speaker 2: of the life that I have had, and nothing against

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Speaker 2: them or anyone, but it just did not work out.

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Speaker 2: Our world views two different. The things the way that

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Speaker 2: we see things are too different. There was a lot

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Speaker 2: of issues around other people's families not being able to

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Speaker 2: accept my past. That was quite taboo. So I was

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Speaker 2: discriminated against him in that way. Oh you know, my

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Speaker 2: parents would probably not accept that this is the past

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Speaker 2: that you've had. And I always think my past makes

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Speaker 2: me who I am, good and bad. It shaped how

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Speaker 2: I am as a person, how I am as a therapist,

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Speaker 2: the empathy that I have. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: good things that have come out of some really bad things.

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Speaker 2: And if people kind of appreciate the good things that

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Speaker 2: have come from those bad things, that don't belong in

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Speaker 2: my life anyway. So there was a lot of that

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Speaker 2: that that kind of went on, so that I.

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Speaker 1: Did give it a go, you know, Okay, I said,

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Speaker 1: I just said to ask all I did. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: wind that back because we're a little bit there of

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Speaker 1: sequence from it. We've got you've broken up, we've cam

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Speaker 1: you've now got in the relationship with Dean. Dean's just

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Speaker 1: outside the door. So just think what you're going to

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Speaker 1: say here, describe doing to me.

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Speaker 2: Charismatic, good sense of humor, quite a quite a character

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Speaker 2: like you notice him when he comes into the room

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Speaker 2: because his personality is quite big, so is his gold chain.

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Speaker 2: So very eccentric, vivacious character. Likes to talk a lot,

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Speaker 2: I likes to joke a lot. We get along very well,

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Speaker 2: very good friends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And where had you known before?

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Speaker 2: From the scene as you would call it, Yeah, the scene, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just from the scene. And what had happened was I

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Speaker 2: had heard that Cam was cheating on me with a

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Speaker 2: working girl from Melbourne, and I thought, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: how am I going to get on Facebook to see

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Speaker 2: what's going Back then, there was no Instagram. It was

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Speaker 2: MySpace and Facebook, where Facebook was kind of getting popular. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: Jean me go on his account to look up there.

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Speaker 2: I know, I was doing a bit of a detective gary.

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Speaker 2: So I went on Dean's Facebook and I had a

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Speaker 2: look and I saw that he had tagged or she'd

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Speaker 2: taked him and they were shopping in Melbourne, and that

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Speaker 2: kind of confirmed it for me. And then Dean and

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Speaker 2: I just kind of kept in contact as friends from them,

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Speaker 2: and then a lot of things happened in between in

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Speaker 2: regards to you know, Cam and I and that situation

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Speaker 2: and things escalated and all the rest of it. But

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Speaker 2: that's how we kind of started talking, right, not on

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Speaker 2: a romantic sense, we were just friends and he was

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Speaker 2: helping me to well.

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Speaker 1: It tells me a little bit about Dean that he

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Speaker 1: get involved in that type of stuff, like helping you

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Speaker 1: out if you're in conflict with your partner. It's a bikey.

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Speaker 1: So what was he into at the time or what

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Speaker 1: did you believe he was into it at the time.

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Speaker 2: I didn't ask, so you know, you don't ask you

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Speaker 2: you don't know. I could assume, but it's really wasn't

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Speaker 2: any of my business that point in time.

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Speaker 1: But that there was a lot of money around yeah yeah, yeah, but.

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Speaker 2: That was normal, right, That was normal in that scene in.

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Speaker 1: The world that you knew, But like it was nothing

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Speaker 1: to go out and shop at the yeah, the top places,

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Speaker 1: come out with the handbags and together. Yeah yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was that was something you're attracted to.

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Speaker 2: I would say, more than novelty and the feeling of

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Speaker 2: it as opposed to the items themselves. I'm not a

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Speaker 2: materialistic person, but I think it was the thrill and

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Speaker 2: the fun and the head of being able to do

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Speaker 2: whatever you want, by whatever you want, go wherever you want.

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Speaker 2: It's quite an intoxicating feeling or emotion. It's not actually

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Speaker 2: the items themselves, it's the I can.

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Speaker 1: Do whatever I want, so living the highlighte.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you grow up in you know, a

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Speaker 2: situation where you experience some disadvantage, it is a novelty

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Speaker 2: to be able to go and spend a quarter of

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Speaker 2: a million dollars in lou Verton. That's a big novelty.

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Speaker 2: That would be a novelty for anyone. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: defending those decisions. Yeah, it was just the hit, the thrill,

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Speaker 2: the dopamine hit.

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Speaker 1: So you're getting that dopamine hit. It's living that lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: I think in the book you talk about, Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: life was we'd be eating at the flash restaurants, seafood

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Speaker 1: restaurants and not doing much during the day, do a

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Speaker 1: line of cake and go out and get on it,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, that was that was a lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: Of Actually, my friend dj Emma Salmon has put together

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Speaker 2: a track where I talk about lines from the book,

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Speaker 2: and she's done a track and it says exactly those words,

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Speaker 2: you go out, sleep, repeat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well pretty much pretty much. Was the lifestyle did

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Speaker 1: you have living that lifestyle? Like I would be concerned

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Speaker 1: because I've said I'm normally with one coming in the door,

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Speaker 1: but at any stage it could end or was that

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Speaker 1: part I'm just trying to get into the mindset. Is

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Speaker 1: that part of the excitement, the adrenaline that this is good,

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Speaker 1: We're getting away with something here, but it could end dramatically.

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Speaker 2: I always accepted that there was a risk that we

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Speaker 2: would be arrested, and that was something I fully considered,

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Speaker 2: and I just felt that the latter was riskier in

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Speaker 2: regards to not having Deen around and being able to

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Speaker 2: protect me in those initial stages, and then got to

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Speaker 2: the point where you know, I was into deep and

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Speaker 2: we had a really good relationship. Yes, all these things

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Speaker 2: were going on around us, but we had a really

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Speaker 2: really good relationship, and I just thought, whatever happens, happens,

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Speaker 2: But never did I expect for the arrest to happen

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Speaker 2: in the fashion that had happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk about that because that was dramatic, but

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Speaker 1: just with the lifestyle, So you at this stage and

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Speaker 1: you Dean was dealing in drugs. Yes, and just because

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Speaker 1: you've seen your father, and I've got to ask the

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Speaker 1: question with addiction, and you would have seen in the

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Speaker 1: lifestyle that you lived the addiction even with camp, how

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Speaker 1: did you sort of how did you process that in

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Speaker 1: your mind that, Okay, we're making money from this. What's

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Speaker 1: your attitude to.

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Speaker 2: That in regards to that, I did think too deeply

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Speaker 2: into it at the time. On reflection, now, yes, I

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Speaker 2: can think about it in a very different way, which

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Speaker 2: I do, but at the time, no, I didn't give

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Speaker 2: too much thought to it. And I think that speaks

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Speaker 2: to the fact that a lot of the times people

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Speaker 2: who are victimized become perpetrators, if we want to use

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Speaker 2: that word. So both can go hand in hand in

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Speaker 2: different points of your life. So you will see that

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Speaker 2: were a lot of women who are actually in prison

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Speaker 2: victim survivors of horrific abuse, whether that be as children

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Speaker 2: or as adults, and vice versa. And that even hap

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Speaker 2: with the men. We spoke about that earlier, about the

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Speaker 2: abuse that goes on. That's right. So a lot of

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Speaker 2: the time people who are victimized as children or even

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Speaker 2: as adults can sometimes then become the perpetrator or framed

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Speaker 2: as the perpetrator. Then what happens is people ask questions like,

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Speaker 2: growing up like that, how do you That's very hard

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Speaker 2: to compartmentalize. It's very different to mentalized. So it's very

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Speaker 2: complicated because it's a demand and supply business. As you know,

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Speaker 2: if people didn't seek out drugs and alcohol, then there

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Speaker 2: would be no market for it. And I'm not defending

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Speaker 2: it or saying that there should be a market for it,

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Speaker 2: but hey, why don't we look at the things that

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Speaker 2: we can do for harm reduction? So more places in

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Speaker 2: rehabilitation facilities, better access to mental health care, better living standards,

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Speaker 2: lower the cost of living, improve the social detriments that

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Speaker 2: cause addiction to begin with, and then there not going

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Speaker 2: to be such a demand for the supply.

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Speaker 1: So the supply and demand, and I'm just thinking how

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Speaker 1: you're processing in your mind, Well, it's going to be there.

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Speaker 1: There's the demand.

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Speaker 2: We got arrested and there was someone waiting right there

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Speaker 2: to take over that exact same patch. So the war

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Speaker 2: on drugs needs to be more than just arresting a

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Speaker 2: drug lord. It needs to really look at the policies

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Speaker 2: we have in place in Australia and the social detriments

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Speaker 2: that lead to offending from a young age, even before

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Speaker 2: people are born, they've got a risk of being offenders

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Speaker 2: so to speak, or committing a crime because of the

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Speaker 2: social detriments and the environment that they're growing up in

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Speaker 2: or that they're living in. So what has to happen

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Speaker 2: is we need to look at all of those things

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Speaker 2: and stop using prisons as a solution for a myriad

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Speaker 2: of social problems. A lot of people in jail should

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Speaker 2: not be in jail.

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Speaker 1: The war on drugs, so called war on drugs is

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Speaker 1: not working. But yeah, I'm just trying to get a

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Speaker 1: sense of I see you now and you're a person

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Speaker 1: that comes across as a good person at that time,

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Speaker 1: living the life just how you reconcile. But it's almost like,

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Speaker 1: well if we don't do it, someone else is going

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Speaker 1: to do it. And is that what was crossing your

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Speaker 1: mind at the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was normalized to me because of my life

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Speaker 2: with Cam right, So that was the introductory period or

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Speaker 2: stage you could say, where it became normalized when it's

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Speaker 2: something that should never be normalized. And then also my

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Speaker 2: upbringing with Yuri and Uri doubled in quite a lot

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Speaker 2: of illegal dealing, so it wasn't that frowned upon in

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Speaker 2: my family sisters.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's getting getting closer to the understanding of it.

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Speaker 1: Uri was dealing in a couple of things. I wondered

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Speaker 1: why he flew that cargo, playing of a way around

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Speaker 1: the world the quickest, given this book.

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Speaker 2: Of records, and you know too, like it was normalized

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Speaker 2: for Dian as well because he was selling drugs from

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Speaker 2: the age of thirteen to look after his siblings, because

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Speaker 2: his mother had an addiction to heroin and his father

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Speaker 2: was in prison. So that might give people a little

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Speaker 2: bit more of an understanding of the whole victim perp

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Speaker 2: make that happens.

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Speaker 1: I just want to delve in there so people do

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Speaker 1: get an understanding. And when you're explaining the way there,

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Speaker 1: that makes a little bit a little bit clearer. Getting

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Speaker 1: getting back to the lifestyle. You plan to get married

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Speaker 1: in Singapore and once a Marina Marina. I stayed there

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Speaker 1: only a couple of nights, and it's most expensive place

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Speaker 1: I ever stayed in my life. That's like the twin

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Speaker 1: Towers with the rooftop four. I gotta say I didn't

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Speaker 1: think it was that good, but for the price, but

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Speaker 1: you were going to have you won't be getting.

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Speaker 2: A discount next time you got. That wasn't a great plug.

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Speaker 1: Gary probably get sued by it. That'd be interesting. But

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Speaker 1: well it is great the roof top bar. But you

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Speaker 1: had the book everything and it was Yeah, you just

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Speaker 1: didn't have the very different too. It was different. You

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Speaker 1: thought paying that money everything was going to be turned

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Speaker 1: on for you, but it wasn't. You had the book

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Speaker 1: and you couldn't get it was a good Japanese restaurant

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Speaker 1: downstairs on the ground level. There was.

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Speaker 2: A whole different level of wealth in Singapore and it's

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Speaker 2: a very Yes, it's an international city and it's very

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Speaker 2: one of the most expensive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, just getting off my wings about stopover

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Speaker 1: in Singapore. That cost me a fortune. You're going to

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Speaker 1: have your wedding there, and that's why I bought the

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Speaker 1: bought up because that would have been an extraordinary cost

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Speaker 1: to high that place out.

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Speaker 2: So lucky we had only put a deposit and not

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Speaker 2: the full amount.

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Speaker 1: That to my way, that gives me an understanding of

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Speaker 1: the lifestyle that you would have been living at the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there was plenty of plenty of cash.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if anyone's seen what's that movie where they get

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Speaker 2: married at Marina Basin, Crazy Rich Asians or something.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't realize it was movie about on that

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Speaker 1: The pool is nice, you get there early enough, get

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Speaker 1: a suit. Okay, it went bad, and it went very bad.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not making either this. We might have a laugh,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes in darkness you've got a laugh at things.

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Speaker 1: But this world that you were living or came crashing

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Speaker 1: down one morning, can you talk me through it? And

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Speaker 1: I apologize for making any joke about it, because I

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Speaker 1: know how scary and horrific it would have been for

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Speaker 1: you and the injuries that you sustained. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us what happened.

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Speaker 2: I think that with humor it's a really really good

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Speaker 2: way to cope through dark and hard times. And there's

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Speaker 2: that really old saying if you don't laugh, you'll cry.

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Speaker 2: Even when I was laying in hospital in the burns,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was cracking jokes with the nurses and

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Speaker 2: they were like, we don't understand how you're kind of

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Speaker 2: maintaining some kind of positivity or upbeatness when you're in

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Speaker 2: such a state and in so much pain. So I

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Speaker 2: think sometimes people when I laugh or when I smile,

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Speaker 2: they perceive it as I'm not taking the situation seriously. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've been in some serious situations and I do take

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Speaker 2: it very seriously and I'm not making light of it.

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Speaker 2: But I do use humor to get through difficult things,

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Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people do that as well.

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Speaker 2: It's not that I think that the what's happened is

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Speaker 2: not serious, and I haven't taken accountability for my role

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Speaker 2: in it. I have, but just wanted to kind of.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you clarified that because it can be misunderstood.

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Speaker 1: And I used humor to get through all the years

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Speaker 1: in homicide and that you really you have to see

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Speaker 1: some brightness in the darkness and if that's in the

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Speaker 1: form of humour. But I'm glad you explain that, explain that,

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Speaker 1: because I don't want people listening to the conversation and

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Speaker 1: think it's just flippant and.

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Speaker 2: It can be very misconscrued. As you know, she's not

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Speaker 2: taking this seriously, except but I am. And I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of serious work, and I sit with people

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Speaker 2: who have been through horrific traumatic experiences and I work

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Speaker 2: with them on their mental health. A lot of the

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Speaker 2: things I do are really really heavy and really serious,

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Speaker 2: so there's nothing flippant about it. It's just my personality

354
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Speaker 2: and I like to have a laugh and I've got

355
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Speaker 2: a good sense of humor. I like to think. Anyway,

356
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Speaker 2: back to the raid. Back to the raid, what had

357
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Speaker 2: happened was there was a no knock raid on our

358
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Speaker 2: home in Harvey Bay. And at first I thought that

359
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 2: it was a home invasion because there was some conflict

360
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Speaker 2: going on at the time with you know, some other people.

361
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Speaker 2: And I thought, oh, they're game. They've come to the house,

362
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Speaker 2: you know, home invasion. I thought, No, they've got balls.

363
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Speaker 2: I kind of thought, you know, but on them. But

364
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 2: I felt a very very hot, burning sensation and a

365
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Speaker 2: lot of pain on my face on my hand, and

366
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Speaker 2: I thought, okay, I've been shot in the face and you're.

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Speaker 1: In better sleep at this time. Correct.

368
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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the first g came in, and that was

369
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Speaker 2: a death tech grenade because it needed to be a

370
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Speaker 2: grenade apparently that could come through the window or through

371
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Speaker 2: the building. Came through and it hit me and I thought,

372
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Speaker 2: I didn't think in a million years it was a

373
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Speaker 2: grenade or that it was the police. I thought that

374
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Speaker 2: if it was going to be the police. They would

375
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Speaker 2: have just knocked the door down and shown me the

376
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Speaker 2: warrant rights. A little bit shot on the face, and

377
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Speaker 2: I just need to lay here and pretend to be

378
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Speaker 2: dead for a little bit and figure out what I'm going.

379
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Speaker 1: To process going through your mind at the time.

380
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was laying in bed and I thought, fuck,

381
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Speaker 2: I've been shot, and I was gonna lay here for

382
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Speaker 2: a bit. I'm still alive, but I don't know how

383
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Speaker 2: long I'm going to be a live for, so I'll

384
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Speaker 2: just ride it out a bit and try and see

385
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Speaker 2: what's cracking. Have they left, are they still here? You know,

386
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Speaker 2: do they think I'm dead? I was kind of, you know,

387
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 2: thinking through all of these things quite quickly, and then

388
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: another grenade came through. I didn't know it was a

389
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 2: grenade yet. And then I heard police on this like

390
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 2: loud speaker that it was them, and I could hear

391
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: the dogs, and I could hear, you know, certain things

392
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 2: going on. That all led me to believe that there

393
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 2: was a raid. So then I started to crawl towards

394
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: the walking robe. The direction of the walk in robe.

395
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 2: I was quite disorientated, as you would know with you know,

396
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 2: those devices, they disorientated.

397
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Speaker 1: They're often called the flash flash bang flash bangs.

398
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: Yes, the ones that came after were flash bangs.

399
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, just a lot of noise, a lot of

400
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 1: bright lights, and just distracting and disorientating. So it creates

401
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: a lot of confusion.

402
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, Well they're designed for that. So, but

403
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: they're designed not to come in contact as you would

404
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 2: know with human skin or with furnishings fabrics. A big

405
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: fire risk and obviously big risk of injury to anyone

406
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: that comes in physical contact with them. And we saw

407
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: what happened with the lint siege with certain you know.

408
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: That I saw the link cafe siege where the situation

409
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 1: was resolved when play moved in. The loud noises and

410
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: the flashes and the banks. That is the type of

411
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: thing that we're talking to me, yes, exactly.

412
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Speaker 2: So what had happened was I tried to get shelter.

413
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: In the process of crawling towards the walking row, another

414
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: one had hit my elbow here and my elbow was

415
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, hanging out, and it was it was blown

416
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: out basically, and then I continued on to crawl to

417
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 2: you know, get in between the space where the wardrobe

418
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: is and you know the end of the bed and

419
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: I slid down, and then a tactical officer stepped through

420
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: the bay window and was, you know, holding a gun

421
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: to me and saying, you know, put your hands up.

422
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 2: But it was very difficult for me to put my

423
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 2: hands up because this hand was mincemeat and this elbow

424
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: was blown out. So I was essentially you know, dragging

425
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: my arms up as best I caught at that point

426
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 2: and asking for an ambulance to be called scary, Yeah,

427
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm definitely thought. I thought a lot of

428
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: I thought I'm going to have to have my hand

429
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: amputated because it just looked.

430
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: Like the injury injury that bad, like a mangle mess

431
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: was I've seen patoise, but it would have been after

432
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: the treatment.

433
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 2: That was weeks after the treatment. Those photos that everyone sees.

434
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: What it happened was we had photos of the injury

435
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 2: when it first happened, when I came into the recess room,

436
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: but the injury in the acute phases was horrific, like

437
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: it didn't look salvageable. At that point, I had come

438
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: to terms with the fact that if I wanted to live,

439
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: my hand had to go.

440
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: I think there was a reference where the surgeon said

441
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 1: that you might might be losing your hand.

442
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, on two occasions.

443
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, Well I woke up and I.

444
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: Had a hand and I thought, this is great.

445
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: Yes, that's what that's what you want to see. What

446
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 1: were what were the police arresting you for at the time.

447
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: Trafficking, production and supply of methyl amphetamine.

448
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: So they had had a search warrant for the house,

449
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: tactical search warrant they did, but.

450
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: I wasn't arrested until I was in hospital. They came

451
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,239
Speaker 2: after the fact, so I was arrested after and I

452
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: was under arrest in hospital. I wasn't arrested at the house.

453
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: And what about Dean, Well, Dean had a really long

454
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: list of charges. I couldn't name them all this There

455
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: was a lot in the initial stages, as you know,

456
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of charges, and then towards the end.

457
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: So that would have gone through the place search warrant. Yes,

458
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: what did they sees?

459
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 2: They had cameras in our house in most of the

460
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: rooms in our house, recording devices, cameras, trackers on vehicles.

461
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: They had diggers digging up our property. It was diggers,

462
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: and they also had military tanks, those police tanks on

463
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: our property as well. I don't know what they were

464
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 2: doing with all of those things because I was cuted

465
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 2: off to hospital all and they also had the dog

466
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: squad and everything was pulled out and full tactical execution

467
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: of yes, yeah, okay, how long were you in the hospital?

468
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 2: For months? It's in the burns unit for months and months.

469
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying, fhato's your face? It was burnt?

470
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, my eyes were burned, had third degree burns on

471
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: my eyes. My corniers were burnt. I've still got gunpowder

472
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: in my corn eers and I've got gunpowder in my

473
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: face as well. It's it's a little bit look, I'm

474
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: going to say dark comical. When I go to the

475
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 2: UDICI and I have like a facial and the one

476
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: time the lady was like pushing on these gunpowder particles

477
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 2: and I said, oh, you're not going to get that out.

478
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: That's not that's not a blackhead or a port gunpal,

479
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: that's gunpowder, and she's what, So, Yeah, I've still got

480
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: gunpowder in my I've got gunpowder all in my elbow. Yeah,

481
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: so it's like discolored and then all through my head.

482
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: And I've also got gunpowder. It kind of looks like

483
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: speckled tattoo, right, kind of black dots. You'd have to

484
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: come up quite close to to see it. So, and

485
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of surgeries as well.

486
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're in there for months you were charged?

487
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: How how long before it went to court or what

488
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: happened when you went to court.

489
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: I was on bail for two years and then I

490
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: was on conditions for three, so five years all up.

491
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: I was kind of had my freedom at the liberty

492
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: of others, so to speak.

493
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, reporting conditions or don't leave the state, or don't

494
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: associate with.

495
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: I can't leave the country. Haveing been drug tested randomly?

496
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: Things like that, So i'd I had quite a few conditions.

497
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: Your first charge is that your first criminal charge?

498
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

499
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: Okay, Dean did he he wouldn't have got bail. I

500
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: wouldn't imagine, No, he didn't. Definitely went inside. Yeah, did

501
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: you contest the charges?

502
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: Two of the charges were dropped towards sentencing. The charge

503
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 2: that I puled guilty to is supplying. So the reason

504
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: why I pled guilty to supply was because in Queensland law,

505
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: you may or may not be charged with the same

506
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: charge as the principle if you're involved in any component

507
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: or any part of the supply. So my part in

508
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: the supply that was recorded on the camera was that

509
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: I tested a set of scales that Dean allegedly used

510
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 2: later to weigh drugs and then supply those drugs to

511
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: somebody else.

512
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: Right, So that was your direct involvement in the spydrus. Yes,

513
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: so you're not saying you didn't know he was dealing drugs.

514
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm not going to deny that.

515
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: Of course, you're saying that you just weren't involved in

516
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: that was his thinking pretty much.

517
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: But in saying that, the law is open to interpretation.

518
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 2: So you know, it was a bit of a difficult

519
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: situation to navigate.

520
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: You So you're in hospital for months, The recovery must

521
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: have taken a hell of a long time. If you're

522
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: in the hospital for months, terrific.

523
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: Recovery was terrific, and I put a lot of well,

524
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 2: I put a lot of pressure on myself just in

525
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: regards to everyday life, right, But I put a lot

526
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: of pressure on myself to get better and to do

527
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: the best that I could with what I had. I

528
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 2: was happy and grateful to be alive, So that was

529
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: the number one thing, and I thought, I'll deal with

530
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: the charges later. And another thing that played heavily on

531
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: my mind in that time that even though yes, I

532
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: was burnt and I had charges, and I was quite

533
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: unwell from the burns, psychologically and physically unwell, the priority

534
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: was more so looking after yu ear because Uri was

535
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: dying as a family, the priority was making sure that

536
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: his last you know months were good, Yeah, good months.

537
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: So there was that playing on my mind, and I

538
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: was happy that I was on bail. I felt very

539
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: privileged that I was on bail, but it afforded me

540
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: the opportunity to be able to bury my father. And

541
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: I thought after I buried Uri, like I carried him

542
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: through his illness, I wanted to carry him to his grave.

543
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: So after I buried Yuri, I was fully prepared to

544
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: take whatever consequences come my way after that. I walked

545
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: into the Supreme Court that day, fully prepared to cop

546
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: any consequences that came towards me after I buried him.

547
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine you had an expectation or a

548
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: belief that you might have been going to jail or

549
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: custodial sentence.

550
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: Most definitely, I left the house that morning, knowing that

551
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: it could be you know, quite a few years before

552
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: I would come back to that home.

553
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: Well, the burns. You had burns on your face. It

554
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: looks like it's all held up, very lucky. How was that?

555
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: Because it's confronting when you've been recognized for your looks

556
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: and then burn on your face and your hair. I

557
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: lost all my So that's a tap humor. I dealt

558
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: with losing hair, but the burn on your face, that

559
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: must have been confronting for you, along with all the

560
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: other injuries, obviously potentially losing your hand when appearance has

561
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: been something they've traded on for a long time. How

562
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: did that impact on you? Mentally?

563
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: There was a perspective shift in the sense that I

564
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: was more grateful to be alive and on bail and

565
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: be able to spend time with my father when he

566
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: was dying, as opposed to being too worried about my legs.

567
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: I did everything that I could, and that was advised

568
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: by the surgeons, and I did everything I could to

569
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: look after myself. I think I had an expectation that

570
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: I would get back to exactly how I was before,

571
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: but I soon realized that that is not possible and

572
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: anyone that's been through a trauma or an injury mentally

573
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: or physically or both knows that you were forever changed

574
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: by that, and there's a loss of identity with former

575
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: self and you have to build a new one with

576
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: your newfound identity. So I needed to kind of grieve

577
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: the old me and learn a new me and appreciate

578
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: the good things that came out of that, so appreciation

579
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 2: for my freedom, family, a high level of empathy, and

580
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: a higher level of respect for human life as well

581
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: after watching my father die. So I was looking at

582
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: the world from a completely different viewpoint after having those injuries,

583
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: and I did my best to get back to as

584
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: good as I could. And to be honest, what my

585
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: motivating factor also was a little bit of a fuck

586
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: you to the police. You know, when they saw me

587
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: and I was all, you know, the way I was looking,

588
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: they probably thought she's finished. So it kind of drove

589
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: me to say, no, actually, I'm going to turn this

590
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: around and I'm going to flip the script on this

591
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: situation and I'm gonna, you know, get to the best

592
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: point that I could. But I remember looking down at

593
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: my hand at one point when it still going through

594
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: a lot of surgeries, and it was not looking great

595
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: at all. I remember feeling like that body part didn't

596
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: belong to me. I'd look down at my hand and

597
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: I would see my hand as not belonging to me,

598
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: and that was a very, very bizarre thing to experience.

599
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: But I don't feel like that anymore. But I imagine

600
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: that a lot of people go through that when they

601
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: have injuries, So that was very bizarre for me.

602
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: It's like losing the hand or losing any body part, burns,

603
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: the horrendous injuries, so I could imagine that it would

604
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: be traumatic. But it's interesting you said that it's sort

605
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: of change your view on life and you realize what's

606
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: important important and what you want to do with your life.

607
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: And I do understand the motive of well, you know,

608
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: fuck you, you've done this to me. Look I'm still standing.

609
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: I get that. Do you think it changed you for

610
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: the better? Do you think you're a better person.

611
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: I've always been a good person, right. I just think

612
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 2: that it has led me in a direction that I

613
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: never thought that I would. I never thought i'd be

614
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: doing what I'm doing right.

615
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: Funny the journey life can take you on this.

616
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I try to not look at it in that

617
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 2: way that it did me good or bad. Of course,

618
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: I'd rather not have gone through the experiences that I

619
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: went through, because no human psychologically ever wants to go

620
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: through pain. We all go through life trying to avoid pain, right,

621
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: So I would never kind of choose that, so to speak,

622
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: although I did make choices that led to that. But

623
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: now I don't really like to look at it that way.

624
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: I like to look at it with no regrets, in

625
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 2: respect that everything I've been through has taught me a

626
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: massive lesson, and then those lessons enable me to move

627
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: forward in my life in a different way and help

628
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: other people.

629
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: It's interesting because this is a journey and I am

630
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: not downplaying what happened to you would have been horrific.

631
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: And then oh they got me good.

632
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: I was laying there in the hospital. I boys, you

633
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: you got me fucking good this time?

634
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: Did you didn't get sense to prison? What you get

635
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: a corrections order? What? What happened there? What was there?

636
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: Three years to be served in the community. And a

637
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: big part of that was the fact that I had

638
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: done a degree while I was on bail. Yeah, so

639
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 2: here I am one hand doing a degree. Here is

640
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: you know, they're having chemo dying. I'm worried about you know,

641
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: I'm probably going to go to prison. Am I going

642
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 2: to get to bury him?

643
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: You know?

644
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: It was all happening in my household at that time. Chaotic, yes,

645
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: very very chaotic, Always something going on, you know. And

646
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 2: when I went to court, you know, the Supreme Court

647
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: judge said, you know, you're obviously a high achiever. He

648
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: looked at my record of education, he looked at even

649
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: the pageants that I had done and won, and the

650
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: things that I'd been involved in quite a lot of

651
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: charity work prior as well. He looked at all of

652
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: those things and they worked in my favor. And also

653
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: the fact that I had been so severely injured and

654
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: I was still undergoing quite a lot of treatment, a

655
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: lot of operations, and a lot of different things to

656
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: rehabilitate myself physically and mentally after that trauma. And I

657
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: think all of those aspects led to me getting the

658
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: community corrections order. But also in respect to that, I

659
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: think it's the way that I presented, the way that

660
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: I look, and the color of my skin, and the

661
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: privilege that I had, So I think a lot of

662
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 2: people are not afforded the opportunity that I was afforded present.

663
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that then you would have had

664
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: your family supporting you. You've had the history of demonstrating

665
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: you could function in society, You've done your studies. Maybe yeah,

666
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: the court's got it right for you. But what you're

667
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: saying is that there's other people that fall through the

668
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: gaps in your situation. Your looks, background and everything played

669
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: the part in You're not going inside correct.

670
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: And I think a thought needs to be put to

671
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: that topic because a lot of people are sent to

672
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: prison based on external factors that have nothing to do

673
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: with the offending. So you know, race does come into it,

674
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 2: level of education comes into it. There's a lot of

675
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: different things that come into how people present, and a

676
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: lot of those things, if not all of those things,

677
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 2: that's not within the realm of control of that person.

678
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: For example, if I had a dark skin, which I

679
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: could have been born dark skin because my mother's background

680
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: is indigenous. Actually in the book, it touches on URI's

681
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: family thought that I was going to be born dark.

682
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: So if I had been born with a different color skin,

683
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: would I have went to prison? I would say there

684
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: was a much higher chance I would have been going

685
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: to prison if I wasn't blonde and green eyed with

686
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: fair skin. So race does come into it and when

687
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: it comes to sentencing, and that's something we need to

688
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: kind of turn our minds to as well.

689
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: You know, that's a fair court. Like people could say, no,

690
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't come into play.

691
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, oh yeah, it definitely does.

692
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 1: Statistics we dictate otherwise, Ok, court matter, you didn't get

693
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: you didn't get a custodial sentence, but three year corrections order.

694
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: So what did that involve? What did you have to

695
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: do with that?

696
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: I just had to be on best behavior. But that

697
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 2: wasn't a problem, to be honest, it wasn't.

698
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: It was because if you breach that, you then end

699
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: up going inside.

700
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: Correct And it did give me some time to reflect.

701
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: I had a lot of anger issues prior, and I

702
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 2: think that was dealing with the grief of growing up

703
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: in a household with a parent who has an addiction.

704
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: Because when you have a parent who has an addiction,

705
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: your self esteem is not great because you view yourself

706
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: as not having much worth. If they're choosing drugs or

707
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: alcohol over you, you think, what am I not working?

708
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: That's a hard a drink hard thing, isn't it like?

709
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: But if you love me, why are you drinking? Yeah?

710
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: They can't possibly love me if they're.

711
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 1: Choosing so you're self worth yourself worth.

712
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I had a lot of anger problems

713
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: and I had a lot of self work to do,

714
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 2: and I did that while I was on conditions because

715
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 2: there was no distractions. Wasn't going out, I wasn't drinking,

716
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: I wasn't doing coke, I wasn't doing all of these

717
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: things that I was doing in the past to distract

718
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: myself from having to deal with these things. So I

719
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: had to sit with myself and I had to deal

720
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: with all of these things. So that's kind of where

721
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: the shift happened. And during that period dealt with a

722
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: lot of things.

723
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want they get more

724
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 1: out of ye catch Killers? Then you should head over

725
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can

726
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for

727
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start

728
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: watching today with Dean he was inside you touched on

729
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: earlier and said you made a conscious decision that go separate.

730
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: Conscious uncoupling is conscious uncoupling Okay. I think Gwnneth Palchow

731
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 2: and Chris Martin when they divorced, they called it.

732
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: It's a nice way. It's just gone out separate ways,

733
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: conscious sun coupling. But that would have been a difficult decision.

734
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: But it sounds like, yeah, you're back together again. Yeah,

735
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: that's the old detective in me. Notice that because you've

736
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: come in here together.

737
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

738
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: But what is it like to be a partner of

739
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: someone that's in Because how long did Dean get sense?

740
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: Ten years?

741
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's that's a long time. So you two

742
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: you spoke and said both came to a mutual agreement, said.

743
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: He got out, or give it a go, and we'll

744
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: see where we're at and whether we can make this work.

745
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, there has been some real

746
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: ups and downs due to the fact that we're both

747
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: very different people to what we were before because of

748
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: the trauma that we've both been through as a result

749
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: of the raid, as a result of my injuries and

750
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 2: as a result of his long term incarceration and institutionalization

751
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: and the mental health detriments of that on both sides

752
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: of both experiences. So there has been challenges, big, big challenges.

753
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: And even though I'm pretty equipped because I work as

754
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: a therapist, it's different when it's somebody so close to

755
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: you involved.

756
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: Did you visit him in jail to start with and

757
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: then make the decision this we've got to have the

758
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: break or have the separation.

759
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. We were actually on non contact because we were coque,

760
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: so when I would visit him, it was just through

761
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 2: the glass. And then we got contact visits. After I

762
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: was sentenced. We were able to then apply to have

763
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: contact visits, so I visited him nearly the whole time.

764
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: We spoke nearly the whole sentence. Yes, as friends after

765
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: the separation, so I stayed. We stayed together for four years,

766
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: and then when he was sentenced to the ten years,

767
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: we made the decision to separate. I don't think there's

768
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: enough support for families who are dealing with the ramifications

769
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: of incarceration, but especially long term incarceration. You know, I

770
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: felt I was equipped to deal with it, and it

771
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 2: was still very, very difficult, because there's things that happen

772
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 2: that you don't even think of, even in the line

773
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: of work that I do. We had an argument about

774
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: something very trivial, but it came down to the fact

775
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: that he had lost his spatial awareness from being in

776
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: a confined space for so long. That was the reason

777
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 2: why he couldn't see what I was verbalizing to him.

778
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: To explain that. That's fascinating what happened there.

779
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: So we had a box that was on the back

780
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: of the ute, and I said to him, can you

781
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: just shift it this way so that the couple clothes

782
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: And for half an hour he moved it in every

783
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: single direction instead of the one that I told him to,

784
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: and I was very frustrated by that. And then finally

785
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: he moved it and he got oh it fits, And

786
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: I thought, wow, that's bizarre. That's really bizarre. I need

787
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: to look into this. And so I read some studies

788
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 2: and I looked into it. And it's because he couldn't

789
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 2: visualize what I was verbalizing to him because his spatial

790
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: awareness was flawed from being confined for so long.

791
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, I hadn't even considered that sort of impact.

792
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: Me either, and I felt terrible for being so mean

793
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: about it. I thox moved the bloody box. Literally. Yeah,

794
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 2: so these are all the things, and that's just one thing,

795
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: but these are all the things that families would really

796
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: benefit from. Knowing so that they can best support their

797
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: loved ones. But who's supporting them? Who's supporting the mothers,

798
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: the fathers, the partners, the children of people who have

799
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: been incarcerated long term, who's supporting them?

800
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: No knowing what they're going to be like when they're

801
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: getting You said, doing change and you change, And yeah,

802
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: only if you feel comfortable are you comfortable to say

803
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: how doing change? Or notices that the change in doing

804
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: after spending so long in prison.

805
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: When jan first got out of prison, there was a

806
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: big culture shock for him because he hadn't seen things

807
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: like the wool worst self service checkout.

808
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: Yep.

809
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: He was just very shocked by that. He was also

810
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: shocked that we don't go to austray a post to

811
00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 2: pay our bills anymore.

812
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: Though all on the phone we're laughing and we should

813
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: be laughing. We shouldn't, but yeah, I can understand.

814
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: It's like a Freddie Flintstone stepping into an episode of

815
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: The Jetsons, because basically.

816
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: Well, it does just change so constantly, doesn't it. So

817
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: take a couple of years out of the world that

818
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: continually changes.

819
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: And things are still surprising him to this day. Ask

820
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 2: a lot of questions you know, needs to get up

821
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: to date on how we communicate now, on how the

822
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 2: internet works, because the internet back then was very different.

823
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: We had those dongles that you would kind of plug

824
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: into the side of a computer, and now it's all

825
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: you know, Wi Fi and all the rest of it.

826
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: So it's all quite mind boggling for him, and it

827
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: was a lot. It was just a lot of information

828
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: to intake, you know, and I imagine that a lot

829
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: of people go through that way.

830
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: How long has he been out for.

831
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: He was released in February of two thousand and twenty four, right, okay,

832
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: so not very long at all, just over a while,

833
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: a year and a half really he's been out for

834
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 2: and only now I can kind of see that he's

835
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: getting on a more even kill with getting used to

836
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: being on the outside. But he has a very stable

837
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: home life and he also has full time employment, so

838
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: that's probably the difference his privilege in that sense that

839
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: he's been here. He's got a skill and he's able

840
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: to utilize that skill and go and work, and also

841
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 2: access to really good mental health care. So there's a

842
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: lot of things that he has that we have implemented

843
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: that a lot of people can't. They don't have that

844
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: available to them, and I'd like to see that changed.

845
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 1: How did he process because my understanding with that police raid,

846
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: you guys are asleep in bed together, and though I

847
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: would imagine for someone like doing the way you've described

848
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: him to see he's partner injured in that way, there

849
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: would be a lot of anger and rage and all

850
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: sorts of things. How did he process that?

851
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: I think a sense of helplessness because he wasn't on

852
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: the outside to be able to look after me or

853
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: to be able to assist in any way. You know,

854
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: my mother basically nursed me back to health, as well

855
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: as the medical staff, So him not being able to

856
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: be there, he would have felt very, very helpless. I

857
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 2: would say, I can't speak on his behalf, but that's

858
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 2: the feeling that I get.

859
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I would imagine the anger and that

860
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: would have gone through his mind seeing someone injured like that.

861
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, most definitely. And I think anyone would be

862
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: able to empathize with that feeling of if you see

863
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 2: somebody that you love hurt, or any fellow human being

864
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: being hurt, no matter what the circumstances are, you would

865
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: feel some kind of you know, anger or empathy in

866
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: and around that situation, especially because we felt it was unnecessary.

867
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: If they would have come to the door with a warrant,

868
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: we would have opened the door and just you know,

869
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 2: there was no need for the injuries, and neither of

870
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 2: us ever could have perceived that the level of harm

871
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: that was kind of carried out was ever going to

872
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: happen in that way.

873
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, was that resolved? There an inquiry into the injuries

874
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: or was there any investigation done into that?

875
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: There was, and then there was a settlement outside of

876
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: court in regards to those injuries. And I think that

877
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: when we speak to investigations, we really need to look

878
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: at having an independent body outside of the police that

879
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: investigates police. I think that's the only way that we're

880
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: going to see a culture shift and some accountability in

881
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: the way that the police culture is at the moment.

882
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 2: So I think that's something the people really need to

883
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: be pushing for that there's an independent body that does

884
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: the investigations. When there is you know, suggestions or claims

885
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: of police misconduct.

886
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think that you haven't got an argument there.

887
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: You want if stakes have been made, you want lessons

888
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: to be learned. So the type of things don't happen then.

889
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: And I think the public sometimes or the media I

890
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't say, but more so the media or the other

891
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: side views it as the family wanting to have revenge

892
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: or see some kind of No, it's we don't want

893
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: it to happen to another family. All the innocent bystanders

894
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: that were involved and that were present at the time,

895
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: so innocent members of the public, So you don't want

896
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: to see that repeated for other families. It's not about

897
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: you know, who's right and who's wrong, and blaming and

898
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: you know, revenge, It's not about that. It's about prevention

899
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: and making sure and to anyone else.

900
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: And look, you've got your views on police, and yeah,

901
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: there's good bike, he says bad bike, he says good police,

902
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: says bad police. But I speak for the majority of

903
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: the police, like they don't set out to injure people

904
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: or cause cause dramas. And police I have seen involved

905
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: in situations where people have been injured. If they're decent people,

906
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: it takes a cost on them to one wouldn't no one,

907
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: no one feels good about them, No.

908
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: One would want to be in that situation. And I

909
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: think that's why we need to see a change or

910
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: a shift in the culture within the police force so

911
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: that these things, you know, don't happen, the preventable.

912
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: Things, and if we do, we change the tatoo.

913
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: Never it's Look, it's my one and only I've ever gotten.

914
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: I wasn't even allowed to have my ears pissed growing up.

915
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: Believe it or not, I do now, But I actually

916
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 2: got this tattoo on the day that my conditions ended,

917
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: kind of as a little bit of a fun thing

918
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 2: to Okay.

919
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: I can see everyone's shocks.

920
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: They were like, Felicia's got a tattoo. No, they didn't

921
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 2: believe it. My mom didn't, but no one believed it.

922
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: But no way, I did get it done, you know,

923
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: just as a little bit of a you know, celebration

924
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: of the conditions ending.

925
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: You know, well it was pretty funny. The posts we

926
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: can have a laugh about that, But not all not

927
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: all police, not all police. The studies that you did,

928
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: what's the focus of your study and what did that

929
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: lead to?

930
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So the study that we did looks at the

931
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: adverse childhood experiences of people who later come into contact

932
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 2: with the criminal justice system. And of course we know

933
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: there's going to be a correlation there, and it's been

934
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 2: done extensively overseas, the ACE Study as they call it,

935
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 2: but we changed it so that it was more appropriate

936
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: to fit Australia. Obviously the cultural implications there and what

937
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 2: it showed is that there's always a correlation between adverse

938
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 2: childhood experiences and later involvement with the law. So that

939
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: tells me that we need to be looking at crime

940
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:54,439
Speaker 2: prevention from the start, not the back end of things. Yes,

941
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 2: things can be done at the back end obviously, with

942
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: you know, helping people reintegrate to society and not reoffend excels,

943
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: especially when we're looking at out looking up our youth,

944
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: which we shouldn't be doing. Other things that can be done,

945
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: but we need to look at the social detriments that

946
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 2: cause crime, so poverty, mental illness, addiction, the list goes on.

947
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: I could name so many adverse childhood experiences that people

948
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: go through, abuse, sexual abuse, So there's so many other

949
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: things that we need to be doing and implementing for

950
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 2: our kids and our young people as crime prevention for

951
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 2: the future. And it doesn't just make sense for the

952
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: health of the nation, it makes sense fiscally. It's going

953
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 2: to save us money because you're going to have good

954
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: functioning citizens that are able to work, contribute, study, do

955
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: all these great things. But if they're not afforded that

956
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 2: opportunity or these things are not kind of these issues

957
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 2: are not scaffolded from the beginning. How can we expect

958
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 2: for children to be dragged up and then have no

959
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 2: example and then go out and be fully functioning humans.

960
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: It's just not Look, I agree with you and the

961
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: sound logic and everything, say, how can we do that?

962
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: How can we achieve that?

963
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: I think that that is a very long, long conversation.

964
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 2: But what we need to do is we need to

965
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: give better opportunities to people who have conviction histories in

966
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 2: regards to gaining and accessing meaningful work and skills. And

967
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 2: I think just look a rough example. Say we've got

968
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: a mother, she has charges, she has convictions, whatever it

969
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 2: might be, right, she comes out of prison, she wants

970
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: to get a job. She can't because there's a lot

971
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: of discrimination there when it comes to getting a job

972
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 2: and to workplace discrimination, et cetera. So you get knocked back.

973
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: And this happened to me. So I got knocked back

974
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: for jobs I was overqualified for and it's like a

975
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: slap in the face when you're trying to contribute and

976
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: trying to get back into society. So if you give

977
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: this woman a job and she's able to support herself,

978
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: she's then able to support her children. That in some

979
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: cases can eliminate child removed, which is another trauma on

980
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: the children and on the mother. And she's able to

981
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: pay her rent, put a roof over her head. And

982
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: if there's a partner or ex partner that's abusive or

983
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 2: supplying drugs or whatever it might be to that person,

984
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 2: they don't feel the need to go back there for

985
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: survival purposes because they can look after themselves. They are

986
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: able to house themselves, feed themselves, and look after their kids.

987
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: So you're not just giving someone a job. You're changing

988
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: the trajectory of their life, but also their children's life.

989
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 2: And that's just one thing that can be done for

990
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 2: crime prevention for the future, and also to break the

991
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: cycle of intergenerational trauma. Is there then watching their mum

992
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: or their dad going out to work an.

993
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: Example, Well, I've seen too many families in different environments

994
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: where there's three generations of the family members that haven't

995
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: had gainful employment, and so yeah, you do. You follow

996
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: your parents, whether you like to or not. So you've

997
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 1: got to break that cycle and see those kids. Are

998
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,919
Speaker 1: you because of your experience and the lifestyle that you've

999
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: lived or experience, What are you doing? Is there anything

1000
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 1: that you are you speaking to people about what can

1001
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: be done? Is there stuff that you're using your experience

1002
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: and your knowledge together with your now education to make

1003
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: a difference.

1004
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 2: The majority of the work that I do is speaking

1005
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 2: about uncomfortable topics that people don't really speak about and

1006
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 2: that are not really on the forefront. So the discrimination

1007
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 2: that goes on in regards to hiring practices, and I

1008
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: speak about the feminization of poverty. I speak about the

1009
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: fact that a lot of people who become perpetrators are

1010
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 2: actually victims. So I do speak about all of these things,

1011
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 2: and I provide education on all of these things, and

1012
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that that's then going to be able to

1013
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 2: inform people who whether they're in policy development, whether they're

1014
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 2: in government, whether they're in HR, whatever aspect that they're in,

1015
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,879
Speaker 2: that that can plant a seed for them for them

1016
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 2: to sit back and say, Hey, what can I be

1017
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 2: doing better? Should I have more trauma informed hiring processes.

1018
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: Should we change this policy, should we do A B

1019
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 2: and C? What can I do to open doors for

1020
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: people that would usually have doors slammed on their face?

1021
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: And I'm not doing it as a charity or as

1022
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 2: a favor. I'm doing it because I've got the privilege

1023
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 2: to do it. So I'm going to then afford somebody

1024
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: else an opportunity to be able to turn their life around.

1025
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: And that's a really powerful thing for people to do

1026
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: on a micro level within whatever's they're within their realm

1027
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 2: of control. Basically, So I'm hoping to plant a seed

1028
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: to challenge a stereotype of want a woman and a

1029
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: person looks like as a conviction history that we're people

1030
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: and sometimes people fuck up and it's okay. It doesn't

1031
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 2: mean that it should be a life sentence. And like

1032
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 2: I said, if you do whatever it is you can

1033
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 2: do as a business owner, in government, whatever it might be,

1034
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 2: whatever your role is. So whatever you can do that's

1035
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: within your realm of control, you're actually you're actually implementing

1036
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 2: crime prevention on a community level.

1037
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it.

1038
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: Getting it in there. Looking at the life you've had

1039
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: and the life that you're living now. I see when

1040
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 1: you're talking about that, the passion and the excitement that

1041
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: comes on your face. Is this rocking your boat now

1042
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: compared to the lifestyle that you used to live.

1043
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, Yeah, most definitely. I absolutely love speaking

1044
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: about the issues that I speak about because I think

1045
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:42,479
Speaker 2: it's important. You cannot change people's minds until you touch

1046
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,399
Speaker 2: their heart, and the way to do that is through storytelling.

1047
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 2: And I think that by telling your story you can

1048
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 2: shift perception and stereotypes. And maybe by me speaking about

1049
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 2: my experience, it's going to mean that next time somebody

1050
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 2: applies for a job and you know the hiring managers

1051
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 2: is that there's a gap in that resume, they're not

1052
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 2: going to be put to the bottom of the pile.

1053
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 2: Maybe they're going to give them a chance. That's what

1054
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 2: I want to see happening. Less discrimination.

1055
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think that would be a good thing. I've

1056
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: had a great chat. As I said at the start,

1057
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: I never thought I'd be sitting down speaking with a

1058
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: Miss Australia.

1059
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 2: But I never thought I'd be sitting down talking with

1060
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 2: a cop for everything gap, I.

1061
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: Know it look look at this, but thanks for sharing

1062
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: your story and I found it interesting. And the book.

1063
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: If people want to get your book, it's called accessory,

1064
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: where can they get that?

1065
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: You can get that from any major book retailer as

1066
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: well as on audible. I read the book myself, so yeah,

1067
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: it's any major retailer.

1068
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, very good. And if people wanted to reach

1069
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: out to you on the work that you're doing or

1070
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: is there any way of getting in contact.

1071
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 2: With you, yeah, sure, so you can reach my team

1072
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 2: at info I NFO, at neuro and EU R O

1073
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 2: V hub dot com and then also just www dot

1074
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: Felicia Middle dot com and also at Felicia Mid on Instagram.

1075
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. Well, it's nice meeting you, and good luck

1076
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: for the future. You've you've you've been through it, you've

1077
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: had the highs, you've lowers, and you've you've got a

1078
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: life of purpose at the moment, and let's say it

1079
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: gays well for it.

1080
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 2: Thanks Gary, and thanks for having me.

1081
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: Cheers,