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Speaker 1: Kiddy, Thanks for listening to the show. I got to

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Speaker 1: ask you something. When people are relying on you, when

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Speaker 1: they are looking to you for direction, for clarity, for

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Speaker 1: an answer, and when you're not really sure you have

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Speaker 1: that answer, what do you do? Do you pretend that

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Speaker 1: you know everything and everything's fine, just follow me? Do

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Speaker 1: you take your best guess? Do you back yourself and

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Speaker 1: just go with the thing that feels the most right,

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Speaker 1: or do you turn around and honestly admit to those

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Speaker 1: people you know what, I don't know yet. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that answer even more than that question. When you're

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Speaker 1: eighty percent sure you do have the answer, are you

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Speaker 1: willing to just check on that twenty percent of uncertainty anyway?

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Speaker 1: Because when we think about leadership, we think about certainty.

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Speaker 1: This person knows where we're going. I will follow them.

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Speaker 1: But today we're going to talk to a person who

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Speaker 1: wants us to reconsider that idea. We'll do that right

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Speaker 1: after this break. Good. Thanks for listening to the show.

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Speaker 1: This is better than yesterday, making it better every episode

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Speaker 1: since twenty and thirteen. Something you hear on this episode

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Speaker 1: and every episode will make today better than yesterday. That

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Speaker 1: is the show. It does what it says in the

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Speaker 1: box that is one hundred percent guarantee. Or my name's

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Speaker 1: not Andrew g Well it isn't. My name's Osha Ginsburg.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: made it to the show. Thanks to everyone who came

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Speaker 1: along to story Club. On Sunday night at the Comedy Festival.

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Speaker 1: The kid from Hugo is all grown up now. He

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Speaker 1: was in the room because Graciotto was one of our

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Speaker 1: storytellers and she told this mind numbing story about accidentally

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Speaker 1: meeting the president of Venezuela one day and she's working

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Speaker 1: on Artful Dodger here in Sydney right now, and say

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Speaker 1: all the cast were there and it was next love.

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Speaker 1: It was really really fun. That's coming out on the

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Speaker 1: story Club substack, Soonest, so a Porpa Lincoln. The show

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Speaker 1: notes to that that's also where you'll get tickets for

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Speaker 1: the next gigs. I think we're doing one on the

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Speaker 1: Central Coast on the thirtieth and May, and then July

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Speaker 1: six back in Marrickfield, but I'll keep you outdated in

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Speaker 1: between now and then. Today. My guest is doctor Kurston Ferguson.

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Speaker 1: She's been on the show before through the show, we

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Speaker 1: discussed how we met. Doctor Ferguson is a globally recognized

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Speaker 1: leadership thinker. She is extraordinary. She's a speaker, she's an author.

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Speaker 1: She is ranked within the top fifty management thinkers in

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Speaker 1: the world. She knows her shit and rightly so, because

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Speaker 1: she's served in the Australian Air Force. She's been a CEO,

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Speaker 1: she's been acting Deputy chair of the ABC. They don't

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Speaker 1: put people in that gig that don't know how to

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Speaker 1: handle it. She's got a PhD. She's an adjunct professor

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Speaker 1: at QUT and she also has a weekly column in

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Speaker 1: the Sydney One Herald and The Age, and she writes

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Speaker 1: about work, leadership, life. She answers questions that people have

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Speaker 1: very good and she's also published her third book. It's

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Speaker 1: called blind Spotting, which is all about a very critical

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Speaker 1: but quite undervalued kind of leadership and whether you're a

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Speaker 1: CEO or an adjunct professor or just you at home.

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Speaker 1: The we talk about in the show today about just

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Speaker 1: seeing where you might have missed something. Since I've interviewed her,

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Speaker 1: I've been putting this into my own life and has

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Speaker 1: been just so so powerful and so valuable. We'll get

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Speaker 1: into it today. This chat is a must listen to

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Speaker 1: for any kind of leader, even those who just want

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Speaker 1: to be a leader in their own house. I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy. This is doctor Kirstin Ferguson.

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Speaker 2: Hello again, Hello, how are you really well?

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Speaker 1: It's good to see it, and I'm glad that we

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Speaker 1: could do this in person. The last time we spoke,

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Speaker 1: we were still all hiding at our home.

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Speaker 3: I think we were. We've done this a couple of times.

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Speaker 3: I think we've had it one time in person before

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Speaker 3: one time. But remember we met at a pretty interesting

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Speaker 3: party where we got a selfie with a couple of

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Speaker 3: billionaires behind us.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. I met you at the company

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Speaker 1: formerly known as Twitter party.

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Speaker 3: And they had some social license and people.

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Speaker 1: Like them, and we took a selfie and we like

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Speaker 1: photo bombed Jack Dorsey and Mike Kennan Brooks over our shoulders.

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Speaker 1: Just us.

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Speaker 2: Well, two dudes, two billionaires.

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Speaker 1: Just talk billionaires stuff, like just discuss thongs and open

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Speaker 1: two shoes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know one million dollar T shirts that

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Speaker 3: they were wearing. We were definitely the poorest people in

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Speaker 3: that room.

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Speaker 1: Ah, but the best to be around. I couldn't imagine

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Speaker 1: what life is like when you're that Like, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: imagine who comes at you with what and how do

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Speaker 1: you realize that not everything is a pitch.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm pretty proud of us. We didn't bother.

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Speaker 1: I did have a chat to Jack. It spent like

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Speaker 1: a minute with him and all that. It was like, mate,

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Speaker 1: you know what goes on in the back end. You know,

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Speaker 1: you've got to be careful without climate stuff that's getting

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Speaker 1: amplified because there's a lot of stake and you know it.

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Speaker 1: And he guess, yeah, that was it, and he exited

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Speaker 1: the elon he sold it and whatever. But I can

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Speaker 1: sleep at night knowing I said the thing you've done

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Speaker 1: it to the head of Twitter that I kind of

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Speaker 1: wish I could have said, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I know it's sad thinking about I mean, I don't

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Speaker 2: even want to go there.

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Speaker 3: But back then is when Twitter was actually quite good

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Speaker 3: to be a part of. And I got so much

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Speaker 3: out of Twitter, so many people that I met through Twitter,

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Speaker 3: so many and you advocacy things you could do via Twitter.

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Speaker 2: I'm now not on.

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Speaker 1: X anything to do. I don't engage with it at all. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: it's repugnant, so I don't know when this show is

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Speaker 1: going to publish, and people sometimes listen to the stuff

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Speaker 1: years later, So I will say that we're recording this

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Speaker 1: the Monday after the twenty twenty five federal election, which

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Speaker 1: was great timing for a woman has just written a

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Speaker 1: book about leadership. Can we take a moment to have

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Speaker 1: a look at what things did we get right around

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Speaker 1: leadership of that two parties and what things are really missing?

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's start with what was missing first. I reckon

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Speaker 3: when I look at the Libs, and I really hope

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Speaker 3: they we need a good opposition. So as much as

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Speaker 3: I'm quite satisfied with the outcome of the election on

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Speaker 3: Saturday night, I don't like we have such a weak opposition. Now,

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Speaker 3: whichever opposition it might have been, we need to have.

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Speaker 3: That's part of democracy. So I'm really hoping the Libs

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Speaker 3: do some soul searching or blind spotting, which is what

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Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about, and for me, that's

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Speaker 3: having a really good look in the mirror. And I

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Speaker 3: don't think they did this after the last election.

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Speaker 1: Well they did, they had a whole review and then

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Speaker 1: they went thanks for that and didn't read it.

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Speaker 2: So that is exactly. But the challenge is, I don't

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Speaker 2: think you can do a review.

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Speaker 3: We could all do a review and like, you know,

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Speaker 3: I take my feedback. Yeah, sure, and don't do anything different.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not really listening to it. I think the

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Speaker 3: challenge they had then and that they run the risk

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Speaker 3: of now is not actually being honest with themselves. So

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Speaker 3: I'm already hearing the libs sayer it was the Trump effect,

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Speaker 3: or it was done, or it was this, that and

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Speaker 3: the other, Like each of them actually has to look

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Speaker 3: in the mirror and think, what was my role in

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Speaker 3: what I've misunderstood about the electorate, what people isn't resonating

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Speaker 3: with people, whatever it is. They've got to disentangle their

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Speaker 3: egos from you know, what they think is right and

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Speaker 3: what is the way to be perceived and actually be genuine.

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Speaker 3: And this all comes to being intellectually humble, and we

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Speaker 3: never get to see that in politics.

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Speaker 1: We tend to not allow our leaders to be that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's a really fine line to draw. And let's say,

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Speaker 1: the last time we spoke was your previous book ed

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Speaker 1: in heart blind Spotting is the latest book, and it

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Speaker 1: is I guess from what I got of it, it's

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Speaker 1: deliberately making time to systemically go through and go, look,

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Speaker 1: I think I've got this all right, yep, but what

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Speaker 1: am I? Where have I made a mistake before? You know?

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Speaker 1: That mistake then.

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Speaker 3: Happens exactly because we And it's also being able to

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Speaker 3: say I don't know yet. Like the best thing that

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Speaker 3: Libs could say today would be I don't know what

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Speaker 3: we got wrong yet. We're going to figure it out,

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Speaker 3: But I actually don't know because they don't know. They

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Speaker 3: haven't spoken to anyone yet outside of their bubble. And

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Speaker 3: so that's the second part of really looking for those

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Speaker 3: blind spots you talked about. They did a review, but

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Speaker 3: did they actually include in that review people who were

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Speaker 3: diametrically opposed to them, people who wouldn't have voted for

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Speaker 3: them in a million years, and said, tell me what

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Speaker 3: am I missing? Like, what is it about our policies,

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Speaker 3: the way I communicate, the way you think about me

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Speaker 3: that I'm clearly not understanding that I don't think they're doing.

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Speaker 3: And you can only do that if you go and

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Speaker 3: really seek out diverse.

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Speaker 1: Voices when it comes to our leaders. Though we rarely

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Speaker 1: ever forgive a politician to say I don't know so

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Speaker 1: how can we do that? How can we be How

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Speaker 1: can a politician stand there and go, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to how much two leads

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Speaker 1: and milk costs? How can they authentically say I don't

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Speaker 1: know and not be branded as there's got no idea

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Speaker 1: there is to touch to her?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, there's you've got to read the room.

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Speaker 3: So if you are they're doing an entire pressor on

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Speaker 3: cost of living and someone asks you the cost of milk,

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Speaker 3: even though that's a gotcha, you probably should know the

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Speaker 3: cost of milk.

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Speaker 2: So saying I don't know isn't going to work. But

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Speaker 2: if you get asked a question about how are we.

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Speaker 3: Going to solve the absolute scourge of domestic violence in

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Speaker 3: this country? I think if a leader said, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: This is such a wicked problem that I'm trying to solve,

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Speaker 3: but I don't know the answer. But what I do

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Speaker 3: know is together we can figure it out. And I

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Speaker 3: know there's people in the community that have better experience.

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Speaker 1: Than I do.

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Speaker 3: That for me builds credibility and trust. There's a time

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Speaker 3: and a place that all of us can admit it.

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Speaker 2: Everyone else knows we.

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Speaker 1: Don't know anytime, and politics is the lens we're looking

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Speaker 1: at through at this through. But you know, whether it

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Speaker 1: be inside a company, you can tell when your boss

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Speaker 1: is shitting you. You can tell when you're like, hang

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Speaker 1: on a second, like there's no offsite this year, what's

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Speaker 1: going on? There's a lot of empty desk here? Are

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Speaker 1: we good?

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Speaker 2: So? I mean there's no trust when that happens. It's

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Speaker 2: all a lot more.

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Speaker 3: And I've had some really senior leaders their teams tell

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Speaker 3: me the best thing they've ever done was being told.

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Speaker 3: I don't know about some you know, are we all

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Speaker 3: going to be laid off? I don't know yet because

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Speaker 3: that's the truth. But I'm doing everything I can to

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Speaker 3: figure it out. You mentioned though, we're not very forgiving

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Speaker 3: one of the moments in the campaign, and I'm going

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Speaker 3: to give Dunton some credit here. We're not forgiving it.

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Speaker 3: People are leaders, particularly politicians, who change their mind. Now,

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Speaker 3: the whole thing about working from home and you know

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Speaker 3: you're not going to be able to work from home.

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Speaker 3: That obviously went.

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Speaker 2: Down like a lead balloon as soon.

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Speaker 3: As the Libs realized that they did actually change their policy,

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Speaker 3: and he came out and said I'm changing my mind.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to be a bit more forgiving

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Speaker 3: of leaders who are able to come out and say that,

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Speaker 3: because far worse would it have been to just press on.

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Speaker 2: Because I've already said it and I'm not backing down.

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Speaker 3: I have to give him some credit for being prepared

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Speaker 3: to say we got it wrong changing my mind, and

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Speaker 3: I think we all need to be a lot more

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Speaker 3: understanding of that as well.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to changing your mind in public, it's,

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Speaker 1: as we said, it's very difficult when you're a politician.

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Speaker 1: How can we just punters ourselves? How can we have

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Speaker 1: that humility? How can we approach that idea of like

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Speaker 1: because it's very difficult. It's like, hang on what I've

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Speaker 1: built this business? Because my ideas have always been the

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Speaker 1: best ideas. How do you balance that with having humility

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Speaker 1: and curiosity that maybe I might be missing something?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well this is how we get better at this

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Speaker 3: idea of blind spotting. Firstly, you so, let's pretend we're

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Speaker 3: talking to a small business owner that's designed, decided to

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Speaker 3: invest in or something that's never going to succeed. You know,

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Speaker 3: hats for Dutton twenty thirty two. I'm not making something

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Speaker 3: up and they've gone and bought five thousand of these

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Speaker 3: things they're probably not going to sell. They need to

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Speaker 3: be honest with themselves that that investment, that they've gone

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Speaker 3: and put all that money.

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Speaker 2: This is a bad example, but.

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Speaker 3: The objective truth is it's never going to work. A

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Speaker 3: lot of people can't even get to that point. They

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Speaker 3: can't get in the mirror and say, I don't know

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Speaker 3: if I've got this right. I probably need some help.

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Speaker 3: So being honest with yourself is the number one thing.

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Speaker 3: And if you can't be honest with yourself, then you're

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Speaker 3: not going to be honest with other people. And basically

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Speaker 3: nothing we're going to talk about the helps. So we

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Speaker 3: all have to be honest, even if only in the

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Speaker 3: mirror looking at ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but if I'm in the mirror that I'm up

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Speaker 1: against my greatest ever opponent, my own ego.

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Speaker 3: Disentangling your ego it's the second part of this. So

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Speaker 3: if you're someone who always has to be right, who

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Speaker 3: just gets triggered when someone challenges you, then again this

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Speaker 3: is something you're going to have to fix. Otherwise you

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Speaker 3: will constantly be defending something that could just be a

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Speaker 3: bullshit idea and that everyone else thinks is bullshit.

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Speaker 2: What's the task to tell you about feedback.

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Speaker 3: Being able and open for other people to go, Hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, I think that had idea is probably going

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Speaker 3: to sink you osher. You know, I know you think

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Speaker 3: it's the best thing ever, but we probably you know,

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Speaker 3: you open to some feedback on how we can turn

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Speaker 3: this around.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, no way, man, Patty's.

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Speaker 3: Markets, I've got the store booked for the next thirty

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Speaker 3: years selling these things. I'm going to let that out

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Speaker 3: of analogy go because it's the idea.

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Speaker 2: It's that idea.

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Speaker 3: But if you're not so, I've got no advice for

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Speaker 3: those people. If you're someone who can't be honest with

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Speaker 3: yourself and can't let your ego go, you know you're

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Speaker 3: going to be on the scrap heap of failed politicians

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Speaker 3: probably from Saturday Night and businesses.

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Speaker 1: And this is but this applies to parenting as much

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Speaker 1: as it does to running a multinational corporation. When our

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Speaker 1: ego gets in the way of decision making, unfortunately we

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Speaker 1: tend to only look at the times when our decision

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Speaker 1: making has been successful and hold that up his legacy.

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Speaker 1: I'm right that I have a C in front of

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Speaker 1: my title. This is why I'm the guy and what

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Speaker 1: I say goes, And sometimes that might be right, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes it might not be. What are some biases that

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Speaker 1: we may not realize are getting in the way of

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Speaker 1: our decision making that we feel is the right thing

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Speaker 1: to do, but might actually just be a fallacy that

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Speaker 1: human brains just success.

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Speaker 3: So my hat man, I'm going back to my hat man.

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Speaker 3: He bought a whole heap of Bob Hawk hats back

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Speaker 3: in the eighties. He sold heaps of those hats man

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Speaker 3: like they were just flying off the shelf, so he

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Speaker 3: had no reason to think, well, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: These my childhood. It was great, great logo.

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Speaker 3: So hubris is where we believe our past successes are

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Speaker 3: going to be repeated.

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Speaker 1: Because I've got this manageer and management book over here

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Speaker 1: telling me, do these have that kind of hubris? You've

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Speaker 1: got a swing for the fence.

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Speaker 3: So he you know, he's all in. He's a man.

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Speaker 3: By the way, this guy's my imaginary.

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Speaker 1: Hat man makes it, it plays it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm afraid it's us.

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Speaker 3: I don't think women are buying done the twenty thirty

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Speaker 3: two hats. I mean there's endless biases talking to owning

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Speaker 3: other people in your bubble. So I mentioned before in

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Speaker 3: the review the Libs do. Are they actually going outside

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Speaker 3: the Liberal party to do the review? Are they actually

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Speaker 3: talking to people who fundamentally dislike what they stand for

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Speaker 3: and trying to find out why. Like, unless we go

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Speaker 3: and get diverse voices, we are simply, you know, just

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Speaker 3: hearing the same old, same old. So there's some of

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Speaker 3: those biases that come in putting aside all the biases

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Speaker 3: around gender, age, sexuality, you know, ethnicity, the lot of.

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Speaker 2: Those that you might also fall victim to.

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Speaker 3: But unless you can hunt for your biases because you

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Speaker 3: have them, we all have them.

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Speaker 2: We all don't know what we're doing.

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Speaker 3: We all have an ego in the way, and we

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Speaker 3: all have biases. The better off will be is if

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Speaker 3: we're actually honest.

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Speaker 2: About the fact they exist.

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Speaker 1: There's hundreds of different kinds of biases. I find it

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Speaker 1: always fascinating to read up and just keep it. Just

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Speaker 1: occasionally go through what you're describing as a sunk cost fallacy,

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Speaker 1: which is, but I've bought all these hats, Yep, Therefore

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Speaker 1: I have to keep plowing on because I've got twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars I'm going to sell them. Fifty bucks each.

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Speaker 1: Margin's great. I've bought all these hats, yep. Therefore IM

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Speaker 1: just going to keep going all confirmation bias.

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Speaker 3: The stall next door is selling Albow hats Elbow twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, and mate, they flew off the shelves.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it, So mine a going to be

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Speaker 2: fine as well.

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Speaker 3: There's so many different I fell victim over the weekend

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Speaker 3: to anchoring.

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Speaker 2: Bias, which is where the first bit.

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Speaker 3: Of dadire held you judge everything by and someone told

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Speaker 3: me the cost of something. It turned out they were

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Speaker 3: wrong was the incorrect bit of data, but I couldn't

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Speaker 3: get past that. I'd already got in my head that

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Speaker 3: that was the price, and now the new price was

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Speaker 3: more expensive unless I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: But it didn't matter.

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Speaker 3: I was now either feeling ripped off or that it

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Speaker 3: was a bargain. And you know, we get stuck in

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Speaker 3: those sort of thinking flaws.

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Speaker 1: It's the classic. It's the movie Popcorn. They're always in

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Speaker 1: two sizes, all right. One is a bucket that is

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Speaker 1: bigger than your head, and the other one is tiny.

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Speaker 1: The bucket bigger than your head is ten bucks, the

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Speaker 1: tiny one you seven. So you see that and you go, what, well,

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Speaker 1: haven't a big one? I can both forty less than

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Speaker 1: forty cents to make Yeah, all right, but we are

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Speaker 1: anchored to that. Hang on what how much? Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: definitely getting a deal here right one here, I go.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, my wife dips our ice cream into

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Speaker 1: the popcorn.

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Speaker 2: I won't let my family have popcorn.

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Speaker 1: There.

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Speaker 3: If they're listening to this, they're going to be crying

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Speaker 3: with laughter. But because they say it's nothing, but I reckon,

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Speaker 3: I have miss the phone. Now you know the sound

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Speaker 3: of chick Oh my god, the sound of someone eating

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Speaker 3: popcorn just does my head in.

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Speaker 1: You can't deal with other people's.

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Speaker 3: Mastination, No, not specifically popcorn.

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Speaker 1: How did you go when you were training in the

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Speaker 1: eighty eight and you're like living cheek to jow with

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Speaker 1: other humans.

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Speaker 3: I somehow managed to get through. But anyway, they tease me.

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Speaker 3: They tease me about the mastication. I have anyone with misophonia,

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Speaker 3: Please tell me it's a real thing.

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Speaker 1: I have a resonant head, and when I eat something

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Speaker 1: like salad, for example, people in the next room can

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Speaker 1: hear it.

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Speaker 2: Well, when we go out, I'm not letting you have salad.

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Speaker 1: It's a problem. Could you you quieter?

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Speaker 4: Sorry?

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Speaker 2: Way down around my head.

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Speaker 4: Sounds like I'm sorry when you talk about we talked

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Speaker 4: about ego, which is tough, and this is something you

389
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Speaker 4: can explore wayrself if you're not ready to talk about

390
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Speaker 4: with your coworkers.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully you've cast you so I'm using TV words. Hopefully

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Speaker 1: you've hired people that you can get feedback from and

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Speaker 1: you you know they feel they can.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm now like in Real Housewives or something using

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Speaker 3: this as thinking about ego and how they can give

396
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Speaker 3: each other feedback. What a more successful show it would be?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Man. I did that reunion with the

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Speaker 1: House Ofves of Sydney. How did that get? That was interesting?

399
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Speaker 1: I'll tell you that for nothing.

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00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 3: Were they able to put their egos aside and you know,

401
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 3: be honest about their what they don't know?

402
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,639
Speaker 1: I did try. I tried real hard to get I

403
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Speaker 1: I tried to get two of them to come to

404
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Speaker 1: some sort of understanding.

405
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 2: Man, didn't work.

406
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 1: Didn't work.

407
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Speaker 3: I do I love a lot of really. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I watched Maths for God's sake, and it's it's there's

409
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 3: not much worse, but I love it. I do love it.

410
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Speaker 1: So it talk to me that if in the context

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Speaker 1: of maths, then all right, in the book and the

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Speaker 1: new book blind Spotting, because I do like it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to yet, So let's.

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Speaker 1: Get away from Peter Dutton's hats for a second. Let's

415
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Speaker 1: people are familiar with maths. In the context of maths,

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00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 1: what are the core I guess mindsets of blind spotting?

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00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 1: And how how would that look?

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00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 2: All right, so the big three?

419
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,159
Speaker 3: Are you going to be honest, You've got to be curious,

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00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 3: and you've got to be flexible. None of these three

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Speaker 3: things I see evident generally in a season of maths.

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Speaker 3: If a show I know, and that's why I watch it,

423
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,920
Speaker 3: because you know, but if they were honest, and you're

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Speaker 3: paired up with someone and you're walking up to the ceremony,

425
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 3: you've never met this person, someone who's blind spotting, and go, Hi,

426
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 3: my name's I'm not going to use my Janelle for Janelle.

427
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 3: I don't know how this is going to go, but

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00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 3: I'm really going to give it my best shot, and

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be really upfront and honest with you.

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Speaker 3: And let's just be really respectful through all of this.

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Speaker 3: Can you imagine channel nine had just be going, Oh

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Speaker 3: my god, who is this boring person? So it's never

433
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Speaker 3: going to work for reality TV. But that's how you

434
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,359
Speaker 3: would start, because you would be absolutely shitting yourself. We

435
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 3: know they're shitting themselves, but they put on this front

436
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 3: of I'm so cool and I could have got anyone,

437
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Speaker 3: and you know, I do feel like reminding them they

438
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,440
Speaker 3: are on a show for singles. But anyway, you want

439
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 3: them to be honest, You want them to put their

440
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 3: ego aside.

441
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 2: And you know all about that.

442
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 3: You then want them to be genuinely curious, you know,

443
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,359
Speaker 3: about the other person, and like there was a contestant

444
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 3: this year that didn't really seem to ask a single

445
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: question about the woman's child. That's hardly being interested in

446
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 3: the person and.

447
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 2: Learning about them.

448
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 3: And then the flexibility one, which we haven't even talked

449
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 3: about yet in the Libs case as well, but for

450
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 3: this is actually having an open mind. So you know,

451
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 3: there was a guy on Maths who said, I've got

452
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 3: my list of non negotiables or whatever. You know, that's lovely,

453
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,440
Speaker 3: but you've got to be flexible and have an open

454
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 3: mind and be prepared to change your mind. And I

455
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 3: think politicians leaders' reality TV stars. If we did that,

456
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 3: this would not be called maths. It would all just

457
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 3: be called let's Kumbaya.

458
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,679
Speaker 1: Probably wouldn't be one of the most successful reality filmates on.

459
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: The TAB, and I wouldn't watch it because it'd be boring.

460
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 2: Is a bad shit.

461
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 1: One of the other things to speak about in the

462
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,679
Speaker 1: book is seekers and knowers. Yeah, all right, can you

463
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,479
Speaker 1: talk to me about that concert and how we can

464
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 1: talk about mats? You could talk about whatever reality show

465
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: you wanted. Well, are you not? What's why is it?

466
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: Tell me about that?

467
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,719
Speaker 3: The way that is so all of us know someone

468
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 3: who let's go to work. They come into a meeting

469
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 3: and you've got to make it. Everyone's in there to

470
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 3: talk about some problem and come up with a solution.

471
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,119
Speaker 3: And there's some dude who's there going, look, I already

472
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 3: know the answer. I've seen this thirty times before. We're

473
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,400
Speaker 3: going to do this, this and this, and the law workout.

474
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 3: They may or may not be right, but then they're

475
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 3: not even asking questions because why bother I already know

476
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 3: the answer? The seekers, and that's who we should all

477
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 3: be trying to be. Other people who go in there

478
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 3: even if they've done it thirty times before go.

479
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know.

480
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 3: Everything could be a little bit different this time. But

481
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 3: most importantly, I want to learn from everyone else around

482
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 3: the room, And so they use questions for insight rather

483
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 3: than to win. So they're actually trying to find the

484
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 3: objective truth in the situation, like what.

485
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: Have I missed?

486
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,919
Speaker 3: They know they've got biases, they know their eager can

487
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 3: get in the way. They're honest, they don't actually know

488
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 3: how something's going to pan out.

489
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: So seekers and hours and we are all eat both

490
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: of them.

491
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 3: So I can think of so many times I've gone

492
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 3: in as an hour because it's a bit of a

493
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 3: shortcut in our brain too.

494
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: You know, if you're busy or stress.

495
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: No one would ever snow ski or have children if

496
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 1: they didn't know they could handle something.

497
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 2: You've got to be able to read a room.

498
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 3: And if you're a surgeon, I don't really want my

499
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 3: surgeon in there going oh I don't know.

500
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: Yet I missed, so just fours there and.

501
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 3: I'm saying if my barrister's defending me for murder or something,

502
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,919
Speaker 3: I don't really want him standing in for her in

503
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 3: front of the judge saying.

504
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: Look, I don't know this bit of law. But let's

505
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: chat about it.

506
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,239
Speaker 1: See what happens worked on the castle from here.

507
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 3: Of course, there's going to be situations where you need

508
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: to be a knower, but you need to know when

509
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 3: that is at a in a work situation on reality TV.

510
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: In families, generally speaking, we're much better off being seekers.

511
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: We're actually seeking to understand.

512
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: Have you ever done much work in your professional career

513
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: with scientists?

514
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: A little, not a huge amount, but a little.

515
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: So I happen to know two. One of Australia's favorite

516
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 1: scientists is doctor Carlkforletsky, and I've had him on the

517
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: podcast a couple of times. There is nothing you think

518
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: about how pumped that bloke gets when he finds discovers

519
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: something right. There is few people on this planet I've

520
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: seen get more excited when he realizes he doesn't know something. Yep,

521
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: He's like, oh tell me what is that? I don't know?

522
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: He's so excited that he doesn't know the answer to

523
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 1: something versus I don't know everything about particle physic But

524
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: my mate Rubin is the same. He just he's mad

525
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: in for it. He's so excited about not knowing the

526
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: answer or he always holds this place where this is

527
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: how we currently do it. There might be a better,

528
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: more efficient way to get it done. We just don't

529
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 1: know it yet, and we're all trying to find that.

530
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: That's how we I mean, that is their whole sort

531
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 3: of way of being. But you can talk to a

532
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 3: Nobel Prize winner who's the most expert in a particular field.

533
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 3: They get excited by not knowing their field, and you know,

534
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 3: that's where we can all learn. You know everything you've

535
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: done in your life. When there's something you've done a

536
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: thousand times but it surprises you, there's nothing better than that.

537
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 3: I'm working on another book at the moment, and I'm

538
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 3: learning so much through the research I'm doing, and it

539
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: gets me excited because I'm seeking to learn more. But

540
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 3: we don't always do that, and not everyone has that

541
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 3: innately in their lives.

542
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we've talked about a couple of imaginary scenarios, but

543
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: you did interview some pretty heavy hitters for this book,

544
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: including Australia's the Safety Commissioner, the head of CBS, a

545
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: head of zero. Thanks. Those invoices have been really easy

546
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: since I've described to that there's not a paid promotion,

547
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: really easy is.

548
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 3: No, I'm actually there was nothing to do with that either,

549
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: But I also use zero it is very easy.

550
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: Well, it's a great product. How do these things work

551
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: in practice in those huge, high stakes things. It's not politics,

552
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: but the shareholders involved, and you know, they've got vested interests,

553
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: they've got shares that pay out, they do a good

554
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: job in ten years, they're going to get all this.

555
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: They want it to be working work as well. So

556
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: how do these concepts work in those situations?

557
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: I think whether you're leading a company or you're just

558
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: you know, on a line role, you know, it's all

559
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 3: the same kind of idea. How it works in practice

560
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: is that you become someone people trust because they know

561
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 3: you're not going to bullshit them.

562
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: So they know that you.

563
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 3: Are seeking to understand as much as you are wanting

564
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 3: to lead them to what is right. And you do that,

565
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 3: you know, it all sort of comes together that way,

566
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: rather than being those brash leaders that like, I know boats,

567
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 3: let me tell you about boats, and really boat boats

568
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: it is a real Australian thing. Is I don't even

569
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: know where that comes from.

570
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 1: By the way, the it's the famous last words that

571
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: you hear at a boat round before someone puts their

572
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: brand new highlights up to the steering wheel in Cabbage

573
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: Tree Creek. You know, there's pretty much.

574
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: That's the perfect example for what we're talking about, had

575
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 3: they actually been able to admit I've only done this

576
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 3: once before and it didn't go well. But yeah, I

577
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 3: think whatever it is you're doing, if you're a leader

578
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 3: that's prepared to be even if you just do one

579
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: of these things, like instead of using questions to prove

580
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: someone wrong, you're genuinely asking open ended questions to learn

581
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 3: to say, Actually, I've never known anything about Japanese funk before,

582
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: and you were talking to me about their music, like

583
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: where does that come from?

584
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: And why are you interested in it?

585
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: That's fascinating, So that I was coming here playing some

586
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 3: Japanese funk pretty well, by the way, see, but I'm

587
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 3: actually interested now, And god, I'm going to blame you

588
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: when I'm down a rabbit hole of Japanese funk.

589
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: At least you can dance when you're down there. It's

590
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: not like some guy telling you the tree.

591
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: That's true anyway, But these are all the things that

592
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 3: spark our interests. So being curious and we're talking before

593
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: about objective truth looking for what you know, that is

594
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 3: a whole contested space. Sadly now because we hear people

595
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: talk about this is my truth, fake truth.

596
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: Sha all of that. There is an objective truth.

597
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: You know.

598
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 3: The flat earther is God bless them, but you know

599
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: they can believe till the cows come home that the

600
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: Earth is flat. But there is an objective truth, which

601
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 3: is it is a spheroid. I learned going down that

602
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: rabbit hole that flat earthers believe that in Antarctica there's

603
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 3: CIA and a wall that is actually being protected by

604
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: CIA agents. I know, and I'm going to Antarctica in November.

605
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to keep my eye out, but I'm just skeptical.

606
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to see.

607
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: Go through it, I know.

608
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 3: But anyway, so the objective truth clearly is that that's

609
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: not true. But journalists are particularly good. So I write

610
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 3: in the book about you know, some of those skills

611
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: we have and can use for really finding out what

612
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: the truth is. And leaders need to doing that and

613
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: not just believing their own bullshit.

614
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: As a parent, you are you're a leader, whether you

615
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: like it or not. You're a leader, whether if you're

616
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: a big brother you might or a big.

617
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: Sister, siblings or leaders.

618
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: You're a leader, I don't know. I guess it feels

619
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: like it's the right thing to do that a leader

620
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: would have all the answers, but it might not be.

621
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: That's old school, yeah, I think back in the day, well,

622
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 3: it was ingrained in us that leaders should have all

623
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: the answers because they were all knowing, all powerful leader

624
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 3: you never questioned. I think there's times when you need

625
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 3: to lead from the front. There's no doubt in a crisis,

626
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: and I've had to lead through plenty of crises. You know,

627
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: people look to you as a leader to have an answer.

628
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: You know it might not be the answer, but you

629
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 3: can't just flound us. So I do think whether you're

630
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 3: a parent, a sibling who's helping out their little brother

631
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: is falling over or whatever, you've got to be able

632
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: to act, and so having answers is important. But again,

633
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: most of the time, getting that answer from everyone around

634
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 3: you is far more effective. For modern leaders today.

635
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: We need to take a break from doctor Ferguson back

636
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: in a moment. You've worked at the highest levels of

637
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: some really big organizations that you know there's a culture

638
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: that's sometimes one hundred years old, in some of these places,

639
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: and it changes at a glass your pace in some

640
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: of these places. How do you go about in instigating

641
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: some of these blind sporting principles in a place where like, no,

642
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: that's just not the I think of Mike Penske, the

643
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: racing car guy, the trucking guy. They have a thing

644
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: called the Penske Way. There's even a book. They dress

645
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: the same. Well, I've been to one of the pits.

646
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: My brother works in that wadow industry. I've been to

647
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: one of the pits. They all wear the same clothes.

648
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: They have shaved, have they have the same haircut. There's

649
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: a thing, all right, and it's severance. Isn't too far

650
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: from some of the ways that some companies run. There

651
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: is a manual. This is the way we do things.

652
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: How do you ingram these kind of blind sporting practices

653
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: into a culture of a business that while this has

654
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: always worked for thresholders, why are we going to change now? Well?

655
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, the first question is does anyone want to change?

656
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: So you might come in and think, oh, you guys

657
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: have been doing this forever, you need to change. This

658
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: is being honest with yourself. Maybe it's telling you that

659
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 3: thinks that maybe the rest of the organization does it

660
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 3: for a reason you don't understand. So that in that

661
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: culture and that Penske organization that you've never been a

662
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: part of, no one wants to change because it works

663
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: for them. So I think this is putting your ego aside.

664
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 3: And if you're in the business, then you've got to

665
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: be honest and say, actually, all those things I've learned

666
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: at all those other companies isn't going to fly here.

667
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: And I've made that mistake as a leader where what

668
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: has worked in one place, I've gone to the next

669
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: role and thought, oh, like, I know how to do that,

670
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: and go and try and do it again, and it's

671
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: a complete disaster. And this is where you have to

672
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: be able to separate your ego and go that was me.

673
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: That is all on me, if I'm honest. I didn't

674
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 3: look at what was going to be I didn't read

675
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: the room. I didn't look at what was going to

676
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: be most effective here. I didn't ask anyone.

677
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: I just thought that this was going to work. So

678
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: all of us.

679
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: Again, before we assume that something that is working needs changing,

680
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 3: needs to ask the question why. And I'm a big

681
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: advocate for change. I love change. So, and I am

682
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: more inclined to think things can improve with change, but

683
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: that's not always the case. And again, this is why

684
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: we ask really great insightful questions.

685
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: You talk about the idea of blind spotting is that

686
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: you can be it's a balance between confidence and curiosity,

687
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: decisiveness and flexibility. How do you know which side of

688
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: the line you're on?

689
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I don't know how to I don't know

690
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: how to answer that because every situation will be different.

691
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: But you know where I mentioned before, you know, being

692
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: able to say I don't know. This idea of blind

693
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 3: spotting isn't being so intellectually servile or that you're crippled

694
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 3: by thinking you don't know anything, because that's not helpful.

695
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 3: But it's also not so intellectually arrogantly you think you

696
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: know everything. There's a sweet spot, just as there is

697
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: for that balance between curiosity and decisiveness. There's this sweet

698
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 3: spot that will be different in every situation that only

699
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 3: you will know. But if you get it wrong, if

700
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: you're blind spotting, it's okay because you can say, hey,

701
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: I got that wrong.

702
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: I've sort of.

703
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: Weighed everything up. I thought this is the right direction.

704
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 3: But this is to my team, I really misjudge that.

705
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 3: So how do you think we can get this back

706
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: on track? Being able to do that because your team

707
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: knows you got it wrong, Like there's no I don't

708
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: know if you's just pretending, if you just think if

709
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: I don't say anything, no one will notice.

710
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: They know you've got it wrong.

711
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 3: Far more credible to be able to own that and

712
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 3: then have a plan with them about how you're going

713
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: to get it back on track.

714
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: I guess ultimately, when you're in that situation, whether you're

715
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: in a family or whether it's a company, or whether

716
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: you're in a government thing, there is a core widget

717
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: that you are making that serves as the direction you're headed.

718
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: All right, So we are here to create this thing,

719
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: whether you're saving that be home with kids, get educated

720
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: and feel safel or we're here to make this cup

721
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: holder or whatever it is. Dunton hat, Dutton hats. We

722
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: made this thing. It didn't work.

723
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: People are going to think we want it done.

724
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: We do not want to thank you, No collect desire.

725
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 1: Where in the you know, we're in the business of

726
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: making cup holders. All right. We made a terrible error

727
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: by making one fit, all right, But our value prop

728
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: is that we're the best cup holder company there is?

729
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: How do we match that? And there? So you're always

730
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: kind of guided by that, And now like.

731
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: You're going to figure out how the cup why you

732
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 3: got that so wrong? Because that you would think was

733
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: a fundamental question is the size of the cup holder

734
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: for the cup? But yeah, I mean, what else are

735
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 3: you going to do? Pretend that Let's sell them anyway

736
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: and just hope no one notices.

737
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: So we're talking mostly about leading organizations and things like this,

738
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: where does blind spotting play a role in the actual

739
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: culture of an organization? Were kind of coming out of

740
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: it a bit now, but from about twenty fourteen, we

741
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: were just fractured into this wild, dangerous self editing, don't

742
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: fuck up a pronoun kind of place where no one

743
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: because everyone was terrified to say anything. There is a

744
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: place for that, absolutely, and there's also a place where

745
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: that can just stifle the thing we're here to do.

746
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: How do we where's the line there?

747
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 3: I think we can be for we can forgive people

748
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: who are genuinely trying, and leaders need to be doing

749
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 3: that as well, and that's how we can create these environments.

750
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: You know, I get.

751
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: Asked a lot about d and I now because in

752
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 3: the States, obviously there's this move against it. I'm a

753
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: massive advocate for why we should continue, particularly in Australia.

754
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: I'm glad to have our D and I approaches. But

755
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 3: you know, one of the concepts is that perhaps we

756
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: haven't been communicating in a way that resonates with others

757
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: as to why it's important. This is slightly tangential, but

758
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: an example I want to share with you is after

759
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 3: the Voice referendum. I mean, I was shocked and I

760
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 3: voted I keep getting them. I voted yes. Of course

761
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: I wanted yes for the Voice, and when I realized

762
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 3: I was in the minority, it was kind of, you know,

763
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 3: ground shattering, thinking, well, I just assumed everyone would vote

764
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 3: the same way. I knew intellectually all the problems of

765
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: the campaign.

766
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: I knew all of that.

767
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: But blind spotting comes into it by saying, I obviously

768
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: have not read the room and understood my fellow Australians,

769
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 3: and I've arrogantly thought that everyone felt the same way

770
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: I have. And if we were to have any hope

771
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: of getting something like that back on track, then we

772
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: need to be listening and truly seeking to understand those

773
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: views different to our own doesn't mean you have to

774
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 3: change your mind. And I would never change my mind,

775
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: and I'd vote yes anytime it ever comes back up again,

776
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 3: if it ever does. But I have sought to try

777
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: and understand views quite different to my own. And I

778
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: think if we all approach really difficult topics like that,

779
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 3: reality TV won't be as interesting, but we will have

780
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 3: a much more civil society where we're actually genuinely trying

781
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: to put ourselves in the shoes of others. But I mean,

782
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but there was a real

783
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 3: wake up call for me. How I got it so wrong.

784
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 1: I've been on that side of an election a referendum

785
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: a number of times, and it's hard. It's hard, and

786
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: never I will take it personally. And I understand why

787
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: people react the way they react. You've mentioned it a

788
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: couple of times. I'd love to start to explore it.

789
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: When it comes to Read the Room, what's your like?

790
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: Where do you even start? What's the first things you

791
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: look for? What are the things that you can what's

792
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: an easy mistake to make when if you don't read

793
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: the Room?

794
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: Well, let me say my biggest mistake, because I first

795
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 3: wrote about Reading the Room in my last book, Head

796
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 3: and Heart, and I had neurodivergent. Neuro divergent people write

797
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: to me and go, look, nothing you've written applies to us.

798
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: Reading the room is really difficult.

799
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: This is why I ask, because is all stuff I

800
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: had to learn in the work wo by copying other people.

801
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: So this is a massive bias on my part. I'm

802
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: not neurodivergent.

803
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: Didn't even consider thinking about the fact, and so I'm

804
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 3: embarrassed when I think about that book. Now that and

805
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: I'm loving there's someone I know writing a book basically

806
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: for neurodiversent people on leadership fantastic and they are neurodivergent.

807
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: So this is what we need. It's really picking up

808
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 2: all the signals. We're not talking about a room.

809
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 3: We might be, but it's your team or your culture

810
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 3: of your organization, it's the society.

811
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: That we're in.

812
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: It's really trying to read widely. So when I was

813
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: on Twitter, I was following people who I didn't agree with,

814
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 3: and I remember thinking I was learning a lot because

815
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: you'd learn views that I might find repulsive. But they

816
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 3: are views that are held by people, and there are

817
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 3: perhaps valid views, just not my views. And so reading

818
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 3: the rooms, trying to pick up every signal you can.

819
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 3: It's not body like body languages the least sort of

820
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: the easiest thing. But this is much more reading about

821
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 3: trends that are happening.

822
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: It could be understanding, you know what I'm trying to think.

823
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: If you're in an industry, it's easier what businesses are

824
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 3: being taken over or sold, or you know in your

825
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 3: family what changes are being made. But it's really being

826
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 3: outside you a little circle, because if you think you're

827
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: always right, you have a very small room to look in.

828
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: But tell me, I'm much more interested in your comment

829
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: that you had to learn how to read it.

830
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I did, and it was only through understanding

831
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: that my people are getting upset at me in meetings.

832
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: I don't know why do.

833
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: You misread things now, but I'm quick to do I

834
00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: get that wrong. I have found it easier, so it's

835
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: more natural for me to walk into a room and

836
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 3: sort of pick up the vibe. Interestingly, I interviewed someone

837
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 3: for my last book who was a child of domestic violence,

838
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 3: and they made the comment that they're particularly skillful at

839
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: reading a room because hyper aware and a trans leader

840
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 3: I spoke to also hyper aware, but for those of

841
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 3: us who haven't had those experiences, but it's a bit

842
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 3: more natural, still get it wrong and sometimes hubris comes

843
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 3: into play. So sometimes I can feel I'm you know,

844
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: that's something I can do really well, and then afterwards

845
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: get some feedback that actually you completely misjudge that. So

846
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 3: we all get it wrong all the time, and it's

847
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: like we've got to keep calibrating, you know, anything can

848
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: affect our ability.

849
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: To do it.

850
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: When I was doing a TV show called The Masked Singer,

851
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: the first season went off and I was doing interviews

852
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: for the second season that people were like da da

853
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: da da da. I said, listen, like you worked. That

854
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: was like, congratulations on you, just as hard on the

855
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: ones that don't work. All right, And as far as

856
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: I know, like, yeah, we could have made the second

857
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: season and it was incredible managering COVID. But the night

858
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: that was to go to air, someone could have put

859
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: a mask on on shot up someplace in the States,

860
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: and to read the room would be to not put

861
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: it to air that night. In fact, the whole season

862
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: might have had to be canned, and then no one's

863
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: got work, Like you're going to have to just be

864
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: keep your eyes out on the horizon and see, Yes,

865
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: this products a great idea for me, but is it

866
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: the right moment and is there anything getting in the

867
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: way where it might be taken wrong?

868
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 3: In a role over the weekend, you would have seen

869
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: Trump put on his socials a picture of him as

870
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: the Pope.

871
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 2: Now extraordinary.

872
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 3: I mean, this isn't a list of five thousand things

873
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 3: including you know X totally extremely awful things, so it's

874
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: pretty trivial.

875
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 2: But like read the room, dude, the guy's just been buried.

876
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: They haven't even voted for the new one yet, and

877
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: here he is doing it.

878
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 1: Does that mean we can talk to him about sexual

879
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: abuses and the Catholic Church? You know, have a word

880
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: on that? Because he have that big white box of

881
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: the Pope's handed over.

882
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 3: Putting the mirror back to me, and I look at

883
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 3: it and I just think, you are just I've got

884
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: to enter in two weeks. I'm worried they now listen

885
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 3: to everything they were saying. But he has probably read

886
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 3: the room of his room, so his supporters probably think

887
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: it's fantastic. And again this is like the voice thing

888
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 3: me thinking, you know, how could this guy get elected?

889
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: I am clearly not one of the people in the

890
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 3: room that is voting for him. But we need to

891
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 3: recognize that rather than arrogantly think, you know what, an idiot.

892
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: And that's the great mistake that I think ultimately got

893
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: elected the first time and possibly the second time. Is opposition.

894
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: As we mentioned before, you've got to have a strong opposition.

895
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: Opposition not reading the room and not understanding why is

896
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: this succeeding? Why what are we missing? What is this

897
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: person saying that we aren't able to say because they

898
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: are making a lot of ideological bets that they probably

899
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't make, so they can be heard on this one

900
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: or two particular particular things. And I absolutely understand. You know,

901
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: it's uncomfortable for me to call it arrogance because I

902
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: don't want it to be arrogance, but it is. It is.

903
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: It is arrogance. It is to go And earlier on

904
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: when I first started voting, to go, how could those

905
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: people vote for that person? They're stupid, They're racist, They're

906
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: a bigot. They must all be stupid racist bigots. They're not.

907
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: They are people who believe they're doing the right thing,

908
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: just as much as I believe I'm doing the right thing,

909
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: but it took me a long time.

910
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: And from me, yeah, and it happens all the time,

911
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 3: and I fall into that trap of making a judgment.

912
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 3: And frankly, I'm going to make a judgment on putting

913
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 3: a picture of yourself as the pope, because I would

914
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 3: say anyone was a dickhead who did that.

915
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: But it's something we have.

916
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: We can only control what we think, feel, say and do.

917
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 3: I cannot control what he does or what his supporters like,

918
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 3: but I can control how I respond and how I

919
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 3: deal with another situation. So if we bring that back

920
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: to say, a more realistic scenario, if you're at work

921
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 3: and you're a leader and you're not reading the room,

922
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 3: and you're doing stuff that your whole team is just

923
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: sitting at lunchtime going oh my God. And I write

924
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 3: a column every week called Got a Minute in the

925
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 3: Cinney Morning Herald the Age. So I get questions from

926
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: all over the country of people who basically have terrible bosses.

927
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 3: So many of them have these bosses that are blind.

928
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 3: They're not reading the room, they're not seeing that the

929
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 3: whole team thinks they're an idiot, and they're looking for

930
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 3: jobs elsewhere or are going to go and leave on

931
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 3: mass and that is as bad, you know, as what

932
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: we're talking about. It is that inability to see the

933
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 3: impact you're having on others.

934
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: I have a I don't like to call it a practice,

935
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: but like I train every day, and I also have

936
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: a notebook that I open up with a pen, and

937
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: I do some stuff in the morning, and I do

938
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: some stuff in the night, And it's useful to have

939
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: this kind of practice. Is there some sort of daily

940
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: kind of practice where we can start working on the

941
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: kind of concept you're talking.

942
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 3: About good I'm not a journaler, and I suspect that

943
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 3: is a good practice, but I mean I should start

944
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 3: doing that.

945
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for that advice.

946
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: Get you know what I've been doing lately. I've been

947
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: and I'm not that I'm Ricky Stewart because Ricky Sewart's

948
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: going to look after Ricky Stewart. I've been writing in

949
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: the third person, yes, because it gives me an opportunity to.

950
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: I write about I talk about that, Oh.

951
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: Will tell me, so talk to me about that, talk

952
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: to me about the you know, I found it to

953
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: be quite helpful. I'm discovering things about myself, like, oh shit,

954
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: my ego is not allowing me to admit that. But

955
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: when I write about myself on the third person, I

956
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 1: can see, oh, yeah, that's a bit of a shit.

957
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 3: So this idea of disentangling your ego. If if you

958
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 3: write as a distant observer, or if there's a scenario

959
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: that I'm really annoyed.

960
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: About, well let's go back to the voice.

961
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: So if I was to write how I felt as

962
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 3: someone watching Kirston who got the results, I'm going to

963
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: write it in a way that goes she thought everyone

964
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 3: was going to vote the same way as her, but

965
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 3: in fact only forty something percent did. She didn't realize

966
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 3: that no one else or many other people didn't agree

967
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 3: with her, and she's feeling and so by doing the

968
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 3: she and third person, it removes it from you. And

969
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: even that language helps us see it differently. So if

970
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 3: it's one of the tricks they also say, when you

971
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 3: realize you're being triggered by something, put yourself in as

972
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: an observer and go, okay, what would an observer say

973
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 3: to me? Or I'll say to leaders, what would you

974
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 3: say to someone who came to you with the same challenge?

975
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: And invariably, you.

976
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 3: Know you're very good with advice, We're always good at

977
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: giving other people advice, just not taking.

978
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: It ourselves when people I'm very grateful I get to

979
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: go and speak to fairly big companies about mental wealth

980
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: in the workplace, and I'm happy to share what I

981
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: went through and how I was supported by their different

982
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: places that I worked with at the time, and it's important.

983
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: But people often ask in my industry, I'm a high

984
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: value employee, I'm going to be able to say this

985
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: stuff and it will not affect my career trajectory, all right,

986
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: But that's not the case if I'm a lawyer. It's

987
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: not the case if I'm a doctor or for an

988
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: airline pilot. So it's only going to be okay when

989
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: management demonstrates that it's okay. So the stuff you're talking

990
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: about is great for employees to do, but like, what

991
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: would you say to managers or people who are leaders

992
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: in the business community. What's the value for them in

993
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: having the guts to say I.

994
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: Don't know, ah, you create a culture of people who

995
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: are prepared to say that. So you asked me earlier,

996
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 3: and I don't think I ever answered. But how do

997
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 3: you create cultures of blind spotting? You want to build

998
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 3: teams of seekers. We talked about seekers before.

999
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: You want everyone in your team.

1000
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 3: I know from having been a leader, I would rather

1001
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 3: have someone come to me and say I don't know

1002
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 3: how to do this than to go merrily off pretending

1003
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: they know and then it all.

1004
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: Blows up and is a disaster. Like, I don't know

1005
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: a leader that wouldn't want someone to do that. They

1006
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: are not going to do that.

1007
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: If you are unable to ever express doubt or uncertainty,

1008
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 3: if you're a leader that's constantly saying, you know, I

1009
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 3: want you to come to me with solutions, not problems,

1010
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: that is the worst advice you know, And it's like

1011
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 3: one of those old sayings that just needs to disappear

1012
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: because if I'm only coming to you with solutions, well, firstly,

1013
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 3: what the fuck.

1014
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: Are you doing?

1015
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: Let's you know, I wouldn't mind you helping me with

1016
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 3: the solutions, but they're never they're going to hide all

1017
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 3: the bad years. You know, you need to be a leader.

1018
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: Not that it's having to sniff out the ship, but

1019
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: that has the ship come to you because that's what

1020
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: they need help with. But so being able to stand

1021
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 3: in front of your team and say, look, I don't

1022
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 3: know how to do this yet, And the yet for

1023
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 3: me is the most powerful part of it. The yet

1024
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 3: chows that you're committed to finding out. You're not just

1025
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 3: throwing your hands in the air and go, look, I

1026
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 3: don't know.

1027
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: Let let's hope for the best.

1028
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 3: But you're saying to them, I want you to come

1029
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 3: to me and be able to say that, because that's

1030
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 3: how we work here. Like I know, we don't know.

1031
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 3: We all know we're gonna have periods where we're unsure.

1032
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 3: Please come and tell me so we can work on

1033
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: it together.

1034
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: Not everyone's going to be in a startup funded by

1035
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: Mike Cannonbrooks, and you know there's like asx IP here

1036
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: we go like big corporate entity. I've got to twenty

1037
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: thousand employees. But the stuff you're talking about is so

1038
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: valuable in our day to day lives. And it sounds

1039
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: like kind of stuff that would be valuable not just

1040
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: something you want in selling your workers, coworkers or employees,

1041
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: also in your family. What are some ways that we

1042
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: can bring these concepts into our home and help our

1043
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 1: kids understand the value of this.

1044
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: Well, I actually want the term you know, saying to

1045
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 3: your kids, have you done some blind spotty on that

1046
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: because you want them to be thinking before they go

1047
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 3: and do something. It's a bit like you're wanting kids

1048
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 3: to learn how to take risks. You know, you want

1049
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: them to be able to jump off the swings, but

1050
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:39,479
Speaker 3: not too.

1051
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: High that they're going to break their leg.

1052
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 3: So you know, we watch to make sure they're learning.

1053
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 3: But it's the same with relationships, with making decisions with

1054
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 3: whether or not they're going to do their homework or

1055
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: just put it at the bottom of the bag. You know,

1056
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 3: have you done some blind spotting around thinking about, well,

1057
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 3: what are you know? What could be some of the

1058
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: outcomes if we don't do this. Have you been honest

1059
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 3: with yourself that you're avoiding it because you really don't

1060
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 3: want to do it or you don't know how to

1061
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 3: do it, and that's okay. So imagine if you could

1062
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 3: say to your kids, it's fine to come and tell

1063
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 3: me you don't know yet. I don't expect you to

1064
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 3: know yet. Come and tell me. We'll work it out

1065
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 3: together and then be curious together. And you know, when

1066
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 3: we ask kids questions, I can remember when my kids

1067
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 3: were teenagers. You know, sometimes your questions are fairly pointed

1068
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 3: and gained it making you know, a very clear outcome

1069
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: come to because you know what you believe, you know

1070
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: the outcome that's needed. But you know what if we

1071
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: just use questions to genuinely find out you know, why

1072
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: why did you do that when you knew, you know,

1073
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 3: we talked about it.

1074
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: I didn't think that was something you were.

1075
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: Going to do with me last night trying to get

1076
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 1: Will in the shower. I'm on the knees and matters levels,

1077
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: like you know, we do this every day. You know

1078
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: it's time to get in the shower. But then he's

1079
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: also real tired, and the bits of his brain that

1080
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: could possibly processes don't work at that point in time.

1081
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: Just pick him up, put him in the I just

1082
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: got it to Yoah.

1083
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no doubt. I said, there's a time for knowing.

1084
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: The knowing is where are going to be here for

1085
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 3: an hour and a half or I can just put

1086
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 3: him in the shower.

1087
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: There's a time for leading from the front.

1088
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: Yes, in a crisis.

1089
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: Christ It's always delightful to see you, and thank you

1090
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: so much for writing this book, and thank you for

1091
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: being someone who's willing to come out and talk about

1092
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 1: this kind of thing.

1093
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure. I love talking to you. You've read the

1094
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: room very well today, and.

1095
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: That was Dr Kristen Ferguson. Thank you so much for listening.

1096
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: You can find the other episodes earlier in this feed

1097
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: of this podcast. We did another one when her book

1098
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: Head and Heart came out a couple of years back.

1099
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: It's really, really, really good. You can also just search

1100
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: Kristin Ferguson Better Than Yesterday wherever you're listening to this show.

1101
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:46,919
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to everyone who made the show.

1102
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: Thank you to Adam, a bunch of thanks for the

1103
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: team here at the show, and I'll see you back

1104
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: here on Monday.