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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, November eleventh, twenty twenty five. Sex Discrimination Commissioner

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Speaker 1: and A. Cody inquired as to whether it was possible

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Speaker 1: to block the reappointment of a UN official who has

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Speaker 1: opposed trans ideology. Doctor Cody, who has been accused of

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Speaker 1: promoting trans rights over women's rights, told a Senate committee

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Speaker 1: earlier this year she didn't understand the term biological men.

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Speaker 1: That's an exclusive live now at the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot AU. Education Minister Jason Claire says Australia has one

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Speaker 1: of the most segregated schooling systems in the world, with

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Speaker 1: a rich poor divide, he says is cementing inequality. Claire

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Speaker 1: says public schools are doing the heavy lifting of educating

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Speaker 1: disadvantaged kids and wants better teacher training and explicit instruction,

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Speaker 1: not child led learning, to become the norm. Fifty years

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Speaker 1: ago today, an Australian Governor General sacked the Prime Minister.

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Speaker 1: A new book reveals something about GoF Whitlam's character that

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Speaker 1: might explain why the PM didn't see the ambush coming,

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Speaker 1: and today the Australian's own Troy Bramston, joins us to

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Speaker 1: explain who Whitlam really was and why the dismissal couldn't

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Speaker 1: happen today. The Australians also publishing today on YouTube a

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Speaker 1: documentary about our own editor at Large, Paul Kelly's unique

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Speaker 1: take on the dismissal, a story that cost him his job.

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Speaker 1: Paul came back and for the first time in our doco,

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Speaker 1: reveals how his principled reporting shaped the future of his career.

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Speaker 1: Check it out by searching Power and Principle on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: It's November eleven, an incredibly important day for anyone who's

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Speaker 1: interested in Australian politics because fifty years ago the Whitlam

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Speaker 1: government was dismissed by Governor General John Kerr.

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Speaker 2: Well, may well you say God save the Queen.

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Speaker 3: Well, cause nothing well say with the Governor General.

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Speaker 1: That event still reverberates through all Australian affairs. And joining

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Speaker 1: me today is Troy Branston, a senior writer with The Australian, who,

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Speaker 1: in the research for his new book, Goff Whitlam The

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Speaker 1: Vista of the New has dug up some stuff we

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Speaker 1: didn't know about the events of November eleven, nineteen seventy five, Troy,

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Speaker 1: what have you found out?

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Speaker 2: High Claire.

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Speaker 4: Look, this was the most dramatic, convulsive moment for our politics.

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Speaker 4: It split the nation and we're still talking about it

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Speaker 4: fifty years later. I tried to talk to a lot

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Speaker 4: of people who were there. I tried to get their

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Speaker 4: different vantage points on the day and the crisis and

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Speaker 4: the lead up to it. But what really struck me

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Speaker 4: was just at the start of this year, as I

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Speaker 4: was finishing the book, I got access to John Kerr's

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Speaker 4: handwritten notes written in the years just before he died

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Speaker 4: in March nineteen ninety one, and Kerr had become a

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Speaker 4: lonely and I think tragic figure, And the notes show

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Speaker 4: that he's constantly revisiting the crisis, analyzing the characters of

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Speaker 4: Whitlam and Fraser and his own decisions, and he becomes

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Speaker 4: a little bit delusional. He seems to think that it

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Speaker 4: was his destiny to dismiss the Whitlam government, it was

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Speaker 4: the forces of history were pushing him into it, and

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Speaker 4: he comes to really dislike Whitlam and Fraser. He says

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Speaker 4: that they had made him their scapegoat, and the public

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Speaker 4: opposition to him and the attacks that he faced in

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Speaker 4: the years later had a big impact on him. So

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Speaker 4: it's a really revealing insight into the cycle logical impact

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Speaker 4: for the man who did it.

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Speaker 5: And this is the last time that I will be

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Speaker 5: saying this. Cheers from a small minority. However, life is

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Speaker 5: wonderful for all of us, especially winners of the Melbourne Cup. Congratulations.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting way to frame it, isn't it. Because

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Speaker 1: John Kerr was a labor appointed governor general. He was

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Speaker 1: a lawyer who, as it turned out, had some pretty

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Speaker 1: strong views about what his abilities were as governor general,

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Speaker 1: things that people perhaps didn't expect that a governor general

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Speaker 1: might think they were allowed to do, including dismiss the government.

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Speaker 1: But he frames it in those notes that you're talking

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Speaker 1: about as kind of that he didn't have a choice.

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Speaker 1: Destiny was calling him. What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: John Kerr described his role as a constitutional umpire, as

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Speaker 4: if he's between two men sitting in judgment, like he

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Speaker 4: was the new So Wales Chief Justice again, which he'd

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Speaker 4: been before. He's governor General and actual fact, his role

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Speaker 4: is to be a constitutional guardian and there are some

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Speaker 4: very important protocols and traditions around the role that yes

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Speaker 4: there are reserve powers, but they should only be exercised

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Speaker 4: as a last resort when there's no other alternative way,

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Speaker 4: and they should not be exercised without warning. I don't

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Speaker 4: think GoF Whitlam really knew who John Kerr was. As

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Speaker 4: you say, he'd been a labor guy. But one of

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Speaker 4: the other things I've discovered is some oral history interviews

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Speaker 4: he gave and other notes where he's by nineteen seventy

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Speaker 4: four when he's appointed, he's really almost anti labor. He's

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Speaker 4: identifying with the Liberal Party. He actually once dreamed of

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Speaker 4: being a Liberal Party Prime minister. I don't think GoF

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Speaker 4: knew this, And so one of the themes of the

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Speaker 4: book is that Goth is very naive. He has these

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Speaker 4: blind spots. He's not good at reading people's characters, and

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Speaker 4: so in the lead up to the dismissal, there are

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Speaker 4: so many people that tell Goth you can't trust Kerr.

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Speaker 4: That's the one thing. So his advisor Elizabeth Read on

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Speaker 4: women's affairs, while's MP Clive Everett, the famous painter Clifton Pugh,

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Speaker 4: Bill Hayden, who was the treasurer. They're saying be careful,

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Speaker 4: here are you sure you can trust him, and then

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Speaker 4: of course the public servants are telling him in memo

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Speaker 4: after memo after memo that there is a dismissal risk here.

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Speaker 2: You need to think.

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Speaker 4: About how this gridlock, this crisis could be resolved. And

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Speaker 4: he was just blind to all of that.

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Speaker 1: Goff Whitlam was a charismatic and kind of captivating individual,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably why every generation of unique students falls

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Speaker 1: in love with golf all over again. You know, is

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Speaker 1: so different from other politicians of that era and politicians now,

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Speaker 1: I would argue, So it.

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Speaker 6: Must, sir John Kerr, accept your advice whatever.

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Speaker 3: Questionably, the Governor General takes the advice from his Prime

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Speaker 3: Minister and from no one else.

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Speaker 6: And must act on that advice.

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Speaker 3: Unquestionably, the Governor General must act on the advice of

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Speaker 3: his Prime minister.

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Speaker 6: There is no tolerance here. He must know whatever.

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Speaker 1: But you betray him in the book, in the extracts

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Speaker 1: that I've read, as really someone who was not at

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Speaker 1: all in his private life, this abiliant, kind of charismatic

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Speaker 1: figure who we've come to know more of a bit

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Speaker 1: of a shy introvert. Was that a surprise to you?

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Speaker 4: Look, it was, I mean I sort of always knew

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Speaker 4: it was there, but I was surprised when I went

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Speaker 4: back and looked at it. He is a loner. He

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Speaker 4: followed his own star. He didn't have that many friends,

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Speaker 4: he didn't confide in his colleagues, and so this is

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Speaker 4: a character flaw for a prime minister that's got to

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Speaker 4: be able to run a cabinet. He wasn't very collegiate

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Speaker 4: in cabinet, and he's got to run a party, and

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Speaker 4: he's not very consultative or cooperative with his party. So

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Speaker 4: he's very much that person. He's very sort of isolated

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Speaker 4: from a lot of his colleagues during the Whitlam government,

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Speaker 4: and I found that this character trait was evident as

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Speaker 4: early as he's being at school.

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Speaker 2: His school reports.

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Speaker 4: And university journals say things like he's a very intelligent man,

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Speaker 4: someone who would no doubt do big things in life,

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Speaker 4: but he has the flow where he doesn't really get

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Speaker 4: on well with people.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't have many friends. He's a bit of a loner.

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Speaker 4: He has a difficulty in how he relates to people,

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Speaker 4: and so that is really what shapes the Whitlam government.

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Speaker 4: You know, I do argue that it did leave a

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Speaker 4: towering legacy of achievements in health and urban affairs and

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Speaker 4: universities and schools and legal reforms. I mean, all these

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Speaker 4: things we know about, and they're big. But the government

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Speaker 4: was also chaotic, scandalous, dysfunctional, disorganized, and a lot of

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Speaker 4: that comes from Whitlam the man and this flaw in

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Speaker 4: his nature.

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Speaker 1: Some of those floors were embarrassing, soliciting loans from dodgy

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Speaker 1: money lenders in Pakistan, ministers being very open about at

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Speaker 1: least flirtation, if not affairs with members of staff. It

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Speaker 1: was really tacky and seemed at odds with the much

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Speaker 1: more lofty persona of goth himself. That introversion and difficulty

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Speaker 1: with others. Do you think it stopped him from from

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Speaker 1: identifying that some of his ministers were unsuitable, or stopped

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Speaker 1: him from being able to pull them up and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is not how you behave Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Look, he didn't like confrontation. He found it very difficult

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Speaker 4: to sack ministers, although he did do that, but I

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Speaker 4: only right at the end people like Clyde Cameron and

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Speaker 4: Jim Cans and Rex Connor. So he had a difficulty

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Speaker 4: in that and how he managed it. But you know,

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Speaker 4: for a lot of people. Whitlam did carry the light

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Speaker 4: for a new postwar generation, and you asked earlier clear

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Speaker 4: about you know White as new generations continue to sort

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Speaker 4: of look to him and be interested in him and

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Speaker 4: in many ways inspired by him. It's because he was

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Speaker 4: a politician who did have courage, and he did have

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Speaker 4: a vision, and he did leave a big record of achievements.

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Speaker 4: But there is this flaw all the way through. And

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Speaker 4: you know, he didn't pay a lot of attention to

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Speaker 4: the economy or the budget. He just steamrolled this agenda

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Speaker 4: through and so in you know, about a thousand days,

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Speaker 4: they did so much. And it's often because they're just

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Speaker 4: bulldizing their way through government. And so the Hawk and

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Speaker 4: Keyting governments, subsequent governments, including Anthony Alberisi, who launched the

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Speaker 4: book and said this that you've got to also be

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Speaker 4: able to run a government. You've got to stage your

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Speaker 4: policy reforms, you've got to win public support for them,

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Speaker 4: you've got to pace yourself. You've got to be collegiate,

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Speaker 4: you've got to have proper processes. You've got to respect

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Speaker 4: the public service and seek alternative views. So GoF didn't

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Speaker 4: do any of that, but his successes the good ones have.

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Speaker 4: I think the most effective ones have learnt that lesson.

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Speaker 1: In the Australian, you've revealed that a president Governor General,

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Speaker 1: Sam Mouston, also appointed by a labor government, has her

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Speaker 1: own thoughts about the dismissal. What did she say?

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Speaker 2: This was really interesting, Claire.

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Speaker 4: I sat down with her in the Governor General study

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Speaker 4: where John Kerr dismissed GoF whit Long fifty years ago.

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Speaker 4: So we're sitting right there and it was very evident

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Speaker 4: to both of us that we're talking about these things.

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Speaker 4: I spoke to her quite at length. I can't recall

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Speaker 4: a previous Governor General being so open and so frank

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Speaker 4: about what happened in nineteen seventy five. So she revealed

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Speaker 4: that it's very much on her mind. She's thinking of it,

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Speaker 4: She thought about it when she accepted the role a

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Speaker 4: few years ago, about how she would operate, and she

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Speaker 4: told me quite clearly she would not have done what

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Speaker 4: John Kerr did. And the essential problem with what John

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Speaker 4: Kerr did was that he exercised these dramatic convulsive reserve

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Speaker 4: powers without warning. He didn't confide in his Prime minister.

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Speaker 4: He didn't say, hey, you know there's some problems here.

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Speaker 4: We need another way through this crisis. Give me some

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Speaker 4: other options. Let's talk about it. And she said to me,

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Speaker 4: which is what the Palace had said to John Kerr.

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Speaker 4: The benefit of these powers is that you have them,

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Speaker 4: and you might refer to them, but you don't ever

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Speaker 4: really use them. You use the threat of these powers

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Speaker 4: to procure a different resolution short of a dramatic intervention.

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Speaker 4: And the Crown doesn't want to intervene in politics. They

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Speaker 4: don't want to be controversial. That damages the crown. And

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Speaker 4: I think it's quite clear that the Palace had that

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Speaker 4: view as well. They would never have done this in

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Speaker 4: the UK because it would jeopardize their own future and

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Speaker 4: standing if we thought that the Crown was dramatically intervene

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Speaker 4: in democratic politics.

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Speaker 1: So it's more like, if you guys don't stop fighting,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to turn this car around and we're not

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Speaker 1: going on the holiday.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's kind of the you know, speak softly and

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Speaker 4: carry a big stick approach' that's what it is. And

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Speaker 4: so she's learnt that lesson. She's done the research, she's read,

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Speaker 4: you know, Anne Toomey's great book The Veiled Scepter about

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Speaker 4: these relationships and about the Westminster tradition. She's thought about Kerr,

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Speaker 4: She's talked to lawyers, so she's really interested in it.

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Speaker 4: And you know there are other things too, like she

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Speaker 4: said she would never consult the Chief Justice of the

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Speaker 4: High Court because this could be a justiciable matter, so

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Speaker 4: she'd consult only the Solicitor General. And she was very

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Speaker 4: clear to me that, you know, there's this famous formulation

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Speaker 4: by Walter Badget, who's the English writer, who says a

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Speaker 4: governor general or a monarch has the opportunity to be

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Speaker 4: consulted and to counsel and warn. And so that's very

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Speaker 4: much in her thinking about how to operate as governor general.

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Speaker 4: And so she said it wouldn't happen today because she

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Speaker 4: wouldn't allow a crisis to develop where she hadn't talked

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Speaker 4: frankly to the Prime Minister and said we need to

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Speaker 4: find a solution here.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, does Malcolm Fraser get a fair telling in

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Speaker 1: the story of the dismissal? The huge drama of that

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Speaker 1: day really never ended for those three principal players, John Kerr,

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Speaker 1: GoF Whitlam and Malcolm Fraser. We talked about how UNI

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Speaker 1: students fall in love with GoF Whitlam. But I wonder

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Speaker 1: if Fraser gets a bit ignored, and you know how

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Speaker 1: you reflect on Fraser the man now having done all

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Speaker 1: this research for this book.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's really interesting, Claire.

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Speaker 4: One of the discoveries in the book is that Malcolm

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Speaker 4: Fraser had written a draft of Bittery for GoF Whitlam

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Speaker 4: that he had finalized and annotated and made edits to,

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Speaker 4: but decided not to publish it. And in that draft

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Speaker 4: of Bittery, what he said was that he had come

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Speaker 4: now to the view, after all these years, that what

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Speaker 4: John Kerr did was wrong in the sense that he

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Speaker 4: should have warned to GoF Whitlam first, exactly what we've

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Speaker 4: been talking about.

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Speaker 2: He said, Curse should have spoken more freely to him.

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Speaker 4: So Malcolm Fraser changed his views on a lot of things,

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Speaker 4: but not on the dismissal. He thought it was right

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Speaker 4: to push the political system to the brink to terminate

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Speaker 4: the Whitlam government. That's what he wanted to do, and

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Speaker 4: he always maintained that was the right thing to do,

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Speaker 4: But he had changed his mind about that issue of warning.

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Speaker 4: So we're seeing history's judgment now fifty years come down

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Speaker 4: very heavily on John Kurd, not that he didn't have

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Speaker 4: the powers, or that the Senate couldn't block supply, or

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Speaker 4: the Whitlam should have been able to continue without supply.

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Speaker 4: It's how the dismissal was done, the actual technical nature

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Speaker 4: of it without that warning. But just more broadly, look

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Speaker 4: GoF Whitlam said to me, and he said to others

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Speaker 4: that he wanted to be remembered as an achiever, not

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Speaker 4: as a martyr. So the dismissal was obviously not a

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Speaker 4: good outcome for him. His government was cut short, and

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Speaker 4: so he's always going to be snap frozen in time

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Speaker 4: through the prism of the dismissal. Malcolm Fraser, you know,

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Speaker 4: his colleague Andrew Peak and John Howard said to me

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Speaker 4: he became a bit cautious, a bit timid in government.

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Speaker 4: He was very aware of the forces that he had

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Speaker 4: unleashed and the public reaction. So I think he was

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Speaker 4: a bit scarred by it as well. And as we're talking,

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Speaker 4: John Kerr was haunted by it. He never really got

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Speaker 4: over it, and he lived a lot of time abroad.

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Speaker 4: So when we look back, I think after fifty years,

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Speaker 4: it was a train wreck for our democracy. It was

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Speaker 4: bad for our institutions and the three principal characters involved.

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Speaker 4: None of them are heroes. It all affected them negatively.

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Speaker 1: Troy Bramston's book GoF Whitlam, The Vista of the New

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Speaker 1: is published by Harpercollin's Australia and is out now. You

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Speaker 1: can check out all our reporting on this fiftieth anniversary

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Speaker 1: right now at the Australian dot com dot au