1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: From the newsroom a news still come today. Gooday there, 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Bucklow and we have got such a fascinating 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: story online for you right now at news dot com 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: at dot AU. It's about ghost kitchens. Now, this story 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: blew my mind because I had never heard of them before. 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: But if you've ever got a meal from uber eats 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: or Menulog, there's a very good chance you've ordered from 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: a ghost kitchen without even realizing. In today's episode, we'll 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: explain what they are and which major fast food chain 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: has just been busted operating them all over Australia. Joining 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: me now is one of news dot com dot u's 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: top reporters. Not that I play favorites, but I'm going 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: to say it anyway. His name is Heath Parks Hupton. Gooday, Heath, Hey, 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: how are going very Thank you very much. You've written 15 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: quite a few articles for our site lately about dark 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: kitchens or ghost kitchens as they're also referred to. These 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: are operating on food delivery apps right here in Australia, 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: like uber Eats and Menulog. There are going to be 19 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: some people listening right now who've never heard of these 20 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: terms before. 21 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: What are they so I think the best way to 22 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: describe it is a virtual kitchen, which is another term 23 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: for these this phenomenon. Basically, it's a restaurant or a 24 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: food business that only operates online. So you can't walk 25 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: in book at a table, you can't walk in and 26 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: pick up food. It's only done through delivery apps. And 27 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 2: there's two different types. Basically, you have your ghost kitchen 28 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: and your dark kitchen. There different things. By definition. A 29 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: ghost kitchen they only operate in a sort of commercial 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 2: kitchen setup, so someone might be branching out spaces for 31 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: people to come in and cook food. Dark kitchen they 32 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 2: are a brick and mortar restaurant, but might be serving 33 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: a different brand only online. 34 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: Okay, So a ghost kitchen could be like a big 35 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: warehouse where they have kitchen space for rent and all 36 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: these different brands or companies could come in and hire 37 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: a little bit of that kitchen and they operate out 38 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: of air, whereas a dark kitchen could be like your 39 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: local pizza hut where someone is also inside that pizza 40 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: hut kitchen creating food for an other brand exactly. Okay, 41 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: what's the advantage for businesses? Why would they want, you know, 42 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: multiple different food outlets coming out of their kitchen. 43 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: I was speaking to some experts this week. Basically, it 44 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 2: allows them to diversify and to change tact really easily. 45 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: So say, if you start a pizza business and it's 46 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: not doing too well, you can pivot and start making 47 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 2: Chinese food. Yeah, without the overhead costs as less staff 48 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: costs as well. Often as you know, you have to 49 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: hire out a business to actually occupy. So it's branding, marketing, 50 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: and the flexibility. Yeah. 51 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: I was reading one of your pieces earlier, and I 52 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: think another advantage for some of these businesses is they 53 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: want to test new menu items and they can do 54 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: that by setting up a new brand which is online 55 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: only and just see if that does well with the market, 56 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: and if it does go well, then they put it 57 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: on their main restaurant kitchen. The major food apps that 58 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: we've mentioned uber EAT's menu log. Are they cool with 59 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: dark kitchens and ghost kitchens or do they have rules 60 00:02:58,840 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: against them? 61 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 2: Understanding that as long as these restaurants, these businesses meet 62 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: all the requirements under you know, permits, council, stuff, health 63 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: and safety, then that's totally fine. And I was looking 64 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: before actually and uber eatz has a website that explains 65 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: how to set up a dark kitchen. So they're very 66 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 2: much on board. 67 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: Wow, pushing it. Okay, this week you uncovered that one 68 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: of the major chicken chains here in Australia has had 69 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: dark kitchens operating out of its stores. Tell me more 70 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: about this because it's shocked me. Yeah. 71 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 2: So this is a Porto, very much loved chicken restaurant 72 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: I love I love a Porto too. So I was 73 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: looking into this topic about dark kitchens this week and 74 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: spoke to an academic at the University of City and 75 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: she mentioned that she'd notice this other restaurant was operating 76 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: out of a Porto. So I looked into that further 77 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: and basically, according to Menulogue, there was over well, there 78 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: was one hundred different dark kitchens operating across the country 79 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: from a Porto called Basted, and Basted basically is a 80 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: according to its cell it's an American style burger shop 81 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: and it was opened during COVID apparently, and now we've 82 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: been told that it's now shutting down next month. Interestingly, 83 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: but it's just been operating quietly with no link to 84 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: a Porto, despite the fact that it was coming out 85 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: of a Porta kitchens across the country. 86 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: Mind blowing to me. So basically this basted company is 87 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: on uber Eats and menulog all over Australia. But if 88 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: you dig down to it, all the food is coming 89 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: out of a Porto kitchens. Is it the same food then? 90 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: Is it the same kind of ingredients they're using as 91 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: a porter Well. 92 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: So it's a different menu obviously, but it's you know, 93 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: you look at some of the food that they're advertising, 94 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: it appears to be pretty similar to some a Porto offerings. 95 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: Their spicy popcorn chicken appears to be pretty much the 96 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: same thing as a spicy chicken bowlers a Porto. Their 97 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: burgers appear to be made with the crispy chicken strips. 98 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: So it's almost that they're repurposing their food for a 99 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: different brand. 100 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: And is it on average more expensive or cheaper than 101 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: a Porto food? 102 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: So looking at the prices, it appears to be more expensive, 103 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: which is interesting. I think they've said that the portion 104 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: sizes are different and they're different flavor profiles. That's whey 105 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 2: that they're justifying the different costs. But yeah, Burger, we'll 106 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: see you're back at least sixteen to ninety five. I 107 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: believe from Basted without Chips outrage online, whereas a porter, 108 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: I think you can get a meal a large oh sorry, 109 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 2: a regular double bond Eye Classic in a meal for 110 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: twenty two dollars. 111 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: So okay, spoken like a regular customer there. Good to 112 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: know that's your order. Customers have cottoned onto the fact 113 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: that this food has been coming out of a Porto stores, 114 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: Is that right? 115 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? So looking back at Reddit, which is a great 116 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: source of news for anyone out there, last year, someone 117 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 2: was talking about how they ordered Basted and it came 118 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: wrapped in a Porto packaging. 119 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: Giveaway that was obviously a yeah, a bit of a giveaway. 120 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: And then I've looked through the social media of base 121 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 2: it as well over the last few days and there 122 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: appears to be a few people on there who are 123 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: commenting like, oh, we know this is actually a Porto. 124 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: So people had noticed so said they may have ordered 125 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: and seen where it was coming from because the addresses 126 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 2: are the same as their local Porto. 127 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: What has a Porto had to say about this whole 128 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: dark kitchen thing. 129 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they confirmed it. When I came to them 130 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: and asked if they were running this these ghost kitchens, 131 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: they said It was a creative, virtual only food concept 132 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 2: that was launched during COVID and it was a way 133 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: of experimenting and testing and adapting flavors and kind of 134 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: attracting new customers. 135 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: But they're shutting it down. Is that what you said? 136 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently they're shutting it down. There said it's been 137 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: phased out over the last twelve months and it should 138 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 2: be out of operation in August. 139 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: Interesting, I mean a Porto is not the only one 140 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: doing this. There are obviously lots of ghost kitchens, lots 141 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: of dark kitchens operating here in Australia in every city. 142 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: Stick around Heath in just a second. I want to 143 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: find out what you think personally about these things, and 144 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: then I'll throw in my two cents as well. Back 145 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: in a moment, Welcome back. I am chatting ghost kitchens 146 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: and dark kitchens with news dot com dot you use 147 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: Heath Parks Hupton Heath. What do you think about these things? 148 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: Do you think they're fine or not fine? 149 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: It's kind of a hard question to answer, I think 150 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: because obviously starting business is really expensive, and if there's 151 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: a way of people doing that in a more affordable way, 152 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: then that's good. You know, from a kind of customer perspective, 153 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: though it can be a bit misleading. I think if 154 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: you are ordering from a place that you believe is 155 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: something else, I say, you've you know, you've ordered from 156 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: a restaurant before. You don't like it, So I'm going 157 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: to change and not order somewhere else tonight. And you 158 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: order something else, but it's coming from the same kitchen 159 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: you don't know, so you're kind of giving them your 160 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: money again despite the fact you've already made your decision 161 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: not to order from that Company's. 162 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: Great point, Yeah, it's the lack of transparency. For me, 163 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: it's that we don't know that it's coming from a 164 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: ghost kitchen or a dark kitchen, I guess. And the 165 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: other thing is quality control. So I was reading another 166 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: news website, the Daily Telegraph, earlier this year and they 167 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: were talking about how these ghost kitchens or these dark 168 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: kitchens can sometimes be hard to find because they don't 169 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: register their businesses, and the New South Wales Food Authority 170 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: Acting CEO said that online deliberately only businesses tend to 171 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: not notify their local authority and without a public physical premises, 172 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: they can be difficult to reach. That means they're not 173 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: having their food safety compliance assess presenting a considerable risk 174 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: to customers. Food poisoning, undeclared allergens, and other food safety 175 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: concerns can be quite serious and even deadly, So when 176 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: you take that into account, it does start to become 177 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: a little bit concerning. But I also see from the business' 178 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: point of view that it gives them a chance to 179 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: expand or try their hand at different types of food. 180 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: So I don't know. Yeah, no, I agree. 181 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: I think that you'd be a concerned though about you know, 182 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: food quality, food safety if it's operating out of kind 183 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: of you know, more dubious locations. Yeah, but yeah, I 184 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: think I agree. 185 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: Well, let's find out what some people on the streets 186 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: have to say. What do you think about ghost kitchens 187 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: or dark kitchens. 188 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 3: It's a bit of a scam, really, isn't it. You 189 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 3: kind of think you're paying for one product and actually 190 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 3: you're getting something completely different and often made much cheaper. 191 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: What do you think. I actually don't see a problem 192 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: with it. 193 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 3: As long as they're passing all the safety and food 194 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: hygiene checks, I don't see an issue at all. And 195 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 3: everyone's entitled to leave their own reviews, So if it's bad, 196 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: they're not going to get business. But if it's good, then, 197 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 3: you know, all power to them. 198 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: What do you think of ghost kitchens or dark kitchens? Oh? 199 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 3: Look, I definitely don't have enough standards when it comes 200 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 3: to food, so I'll just take what I can get. 201 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 3: And I honestly, I also don't want to know, Like 202 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: I don't want to know where stuff's from. I want 203 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 3: to have an Arab mystery about where my food comes from. 204 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 3: Is that any Is that wrong? That's wrong? And I 205 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: want to be right. 206 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: Your thoughts on ghost kitchens or dark kitchens just feel. 207 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: A little bit dishonest, Like I kind of want to 208 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: know where my food is coming from exactly. I don't 209 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: want to be like, where's this, where's coming from? 210 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: Where? Tell me where it is? Tell me who's making it? Well, 211 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: don't need that detail, but who's coming from? You know 212 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: what I mean? What do you think? 213 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 3: Look, I'm all for trying new food, so the more 214 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: options the better, I'm fine with it. 215 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: There go divided opinion. Thank you so much, Heith for 216 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: fascinating little articles that you've been writing. Keep writing them. 217 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: Oh will you? 218 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: Thank you? 219 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: And maybe we'll meet up for a reporter soon. 220 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: Reckon I'm all right. 221 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Bronte 222 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: will be back with a royal episode over the weekend, 223 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: and then I'll be back on Monday. 224 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: Catch it, then follow or subscribe to from the Newsroom 225 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts.