1 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:08,490 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:13,259 Sean Aylmer: Australia's environment could be repaired, including saving threatened wildlife and 3 00:00:13,259 --> 00:00:18,989 Sean Aylmer: restoring our rivers, for just 0. 3% of GDP. In dollar terms, 4 00:00:18,989 --> 00:00:21,810 Sean Aylmer: it's about $ 7. 3 billion a year for 30 years. 5 00:00:21,810 --> 00:00:24,390 Sean Aylmer: The first time a dollar figure has been put on 6 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:28,290 Sean Aylmer: saving our environment. A new report, compiled over six years 7 00:00:28,290 --> 00:00:31,950 Sean Aylmer: by the Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists, argues that we 8 00:00:31,950 --> 00:00:34,619 Sean Aylmer: don't have to choose between a healthy environment and a 9 00:00:34,619 --> 00:00:38,309 Sean Aylmer: productive economy, we can have both. Jamie Pittock is a 10 00:00:38,310 --> 00:00:41,640 Sean Aylmer: professor at the Fenner School of Environment and Society at 11 00:00:41,909 --> 00:00:44,670 Sean Aylmer: ANU. He's a member of the Wentworth Group of Concerned 12 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:48,150 Sean Aylmer: Scientists. And a co- author of the Blueprint to Repair 13 00:00:48,150 --> 00:00:51,509 Sean Aylmer: Australia's Landscapes, which was launched this week at the National 14 00:00:51,509 --> 00:00:54,540 Sean Aylmer: Press Club. Professor Pittock, welcome to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:55,050 --> 00:00:56,820 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Great pleasure to be here with you, Sean. 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,660 Sean Aylmer: First to the damage. When we're talking about repairing Australia's 17 00:01:00,780 --> 00:01:03,840 Sean Aylmer: landscapes, how much damage has been done? 18 00:01:04,559 --> 00:01:07,470 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Well, there's been a vast amount of damage done to 19 00:01:07,559 --> 00:01:11,369 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Australia's environment. And just to give you a few examples, 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,260 Prof. Jamie Pittock: around half of our most productive agricultural soils are suffering 21 00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:21,569 Prof. Jamie Pittock: from acidification and soil structural decline. Around a third to 22 00:01:21,569 --> 00:01:25,469 Prof. Jamie Pittock: half of our rivers are seriously damaged, and that's a 23 00:01:25,469 --> 00:01:28,828 Prof. Jamie Pittock: real problem given that we're living on the driest inhabited 24 00:01:29,549 --> 00:01:35,280 Prof. Jamie Pittock: continent on earth. And we almost completely extinguished the shellfish 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:40,200 Prof. Jamie Pittock: reefs around the southern Australian coastline that are key nurseries 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:45,419 Prof. Jamie Pittock: for fish. And so these sorts of damages not only 27 00:01:45,420 --> 00:01:48,450 Prof. Jamie Pittock: are really bad for the environment, but they're also bad 28 00:01:48,450 --> 00:01:52,200 Prof. Jamie Pittock: for the economy. Because it means that we're not producing 29 00:01:52,950 --> 00:01:55,410 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the volume of crops that we could be and we're 30 00:01:55,410 --> 00:02:00,329 Prof. Jamie Pittock: reducing wild fish catches, and we're having to spend more 31 00:02:00,330 --> 00:02:04,710 Prof. Jamie Pittock: on things like treating water for domestic and other purposes. 32 00:02:05,609 --> 00:02:08,340 Sean Aylmer: How urgent is the challenge? So we're talking about this 33 00:02:08,550 --> 00:02:12,270 Sean Aylmer: now after six years of study by the Wentworth Group 34 00:02:12,270 --> 00:02:15,540 Sean Aylmer: of Concerned Scientists. It's not an area I know much 35 00:02:15,540 --> 00:02:18,539 Sean Aylmer: about, Jamie, so tell me, where are we? Are we 36 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:20,758 Sean Aylmer: at a tipping point? Is it just something that we 37 00:02:20,758 --> 00:02:23,340 Sean Aylmer: need to do over the next decade or few decades 38 00:02:23,788 --> 00:02:26,790 Sean Aylmer: to revitalize our food chain? I'm trying to get a 39 00:02:26,790 --> 00:02:29,220 Sean Aylmer: sense of where we are in the process. 40 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:33,839 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Well, it's both urgent and it isn't. I mean, in 41 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,500 Prof. Jamie Pittock: some ways what we're talking about is a slow onset 42 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:40,980 Prof. Jamie Pittock: disaster where every year things are getting a bit worse. 43 00:02:41,669 --> 00:02:44,518 Prof. Jamie Pittock: And yes, there are some cases where we do approach 44 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,680 Prof. Jamie Pittock: tipping points where things get dramatically worse. We saw that 45 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,099 Prof. Jamie Pittock: in the millennium drought when, for example, the River Murray 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,728 Prof. Jamie Pittock: wasn't flowing through to the sea and that whole Coorong 47 00:02:56,730 --> 00:03:00,299 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and Lower Lakes area in South Australia dried up, went 48 00:03:00,299 --> 00:03:05,850 Prof. Jamie Pittock: saline, went acidic. And that caused a tipping point for many 49 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:09,059 Prof. Jamie Pittock: of the local businesses there; dairy farms couldn't produce, for 50 00:03:09,059 --> 00:03:14,249 Prof. Jamie Pittock: example, because they couldn't access clean water. But every year 51 00:03:14,250 --> 00:03:18,089 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that we don't act is a year that we're racking 52 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:21,630 Prof. Jamie Pittock: up the bill to fix the problem later, and is 53 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:27,120 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the year that we're causing other problems like climate change 54 00:03:27,690 --> 00:03:30,660 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that will seriously come back to bite us. 55 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,299 Sean Aylmer: And the point being that it does have to get 56 00:03:33,299 --> 00:03:37,440 Sean Aylmer: fixed at some point. Technology can't prevent us from fixing 57 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,780 Sean Aylmer: it because we need to feed ourselves. Is that kind 58 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:40,500 Sean Aylmer: of the bottom line? 59 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,099 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Absolutely. We need to start fixing this at some point 60 00:03:44,099 --> 00:03:48,059 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and we suggest beginning this coming year. And we need 61 00:03:48,059 --> 00:03:50,699 Prof. Jamie Pittock: to do that so that we can continue to feed 62 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:55,200 Prof. Jamie Pittock: ourselves, so that we can continue to attract tourists to 63 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,520 Prof. Jamie Pittock: support our tourism industry, so that we have good drinking 64 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,349 Prof. Jamie Pittock: water. And so that, at a more altruistic level, we get to 65 00:04:04,349 --> 00:04:07,859 Prof. Jamie Pittock: keep and enjoy the wildlife, the bushland, the beaches that 66 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:09,569 Prof. Jamie Pittock: we love as Australians. 67 00:04:10,139 --> 00:04:12,180 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Professor. We'll be back in a minute. 68 00:04:18,390 --> 00:04:21,599 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Professor Jamie Pittock, co- author of the 69 00:04:21,599 --> 00:04:25,589 Sean Aylmer: Blueprint to Repair Australia's Landscapes. Okay. So there are 24 70 00:04:25,589 --> 00:04:28,169 Sean Aylmer: recommendations. Perhaps, can you take me through some of the 71 00:04:28,170 --> 00:04:30,030 Sean Aylmer: key recommendations from the review? 72 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:33,930 Prof. Jamie Pittock: So we looked at five key areas of the environment 73 00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:36,930 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that need to be fixed, and we took these from 74 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:41,729 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the Australian government- led State of the Environment report. And 75 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:45,149 Prof. Jamie Pittock: so I'm a watery kind of a guy, so I'll 76 00:04:45,150 --> 00:04:50,130 Prof. Jamie Pittock: start with inland water ecosystems, where we think that there's 77 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,159 Prof. Jamie Pittock: around 40% of the budget needs to be spent on 78 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:58,469 Prof. Jamie Pittock: repair. And the most expensive item is actually fixing the 79 00:04:58,469 --> 00:05:02,008 Prof. Jamie Pittock: riverbanks along our rivers and streams. And you might say, 80 00:05:02,009 --> 00:05:05,488 Prof. Jamie Pittock: well, why is it so expensive and why is it 81 00:05:05,490 --> 00:05:10,650 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that important? Well, it's important because while those riverbanks are 82 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:16,409 Prof. Jamie Pittock: bare, the water quality of the streams is degrading. Whereas, 83 00:05:16,469 --> 00:05:21,899 Prof. Jamie Pittock: if we fix it by fencing out livestock and installing off- 84 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:26,370 Prof. Jamie Pittock: river watering points for sheep and cows, you get healthier 85 00:05:26,370 --> 00:05:30,180 Prof. Jamie Pittock: sheep and cows, you also don't have sheep and cows 86 00:05:30,180 --> 00:05:33,690 Prof. Jamie Pittock: pooing in the rivers that we rely on for drinking 87 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:38,970 Prof. Jamie Pittock: water. We get to put forests back on those riverbanks. 88 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,839 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Those forests shelter the adjoining crops so the crops get 89 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,070 Prof. Jamie Pittock: better. They're habitat for flora and fauna, they stop a 90 00:05:47,070 --> 00:05:50,370 Prof. Jamie Pittock: lot of pollution going from the land into the water. 91 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,849 Prof. Jamie Pittock: And so that's one of the more expensive interventions we're 92 00:05:53,849 --> 00:05:59,279 Prof. Jamie Pittock: proposing. Another 8% of the expenditure we're proposing is to 93 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:04,980 Prof. Jamie Pittock: restore our most productive agricultural soils. To do things like 94 00:06:05,250 --> 00:06:10,530 Prof. Jamie Pittock: put lime on areas where the soil is acidifying, gypsum 95 00:06:10,620 --> 00:06:15,780 Prof. Jamie Pittock: to get back the soil structure. And repair eroding gullies, 96 00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:21,120 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and that will help our agricultural sector. About 16% of 97 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,310 Prof. Jamie Pittock: what we're proposing to spend is on recovering threatened species. 98 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:33,178 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Nearly a quarter is on conserving bushland areas. So restoring 99 00:06:33,178 --> 00:06:38,339 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the different kinds of bushland up to a minimum 30% 100 00:06:38,339 --> 00:06:42,270 Prof. Jamie Pittock: level, that's considered the sort of threshold to look after 101 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:45,839 Prof. Jamie Pittock: flora and fauna. And then lastly, we're proposing to spend 102 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,890 Prof. Jamie Pittock: a very small amount that's needed to restore our coastal 103 00:06:49,980 --> 00:06:54,180 Prof. Jamie Pittock: estuaries, that are the sort of fish nurseries along the 104 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,050 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Australian coastline. 105 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,400 Sean Aylmer: When you were going through those, Jamie, it's not like... 106 00:07:00,029 --> 00:07:03,599 Sean Aylmer: some of the ideas that you're talking about, and the 107 00:07:03,599 --> 00:07:06,900 Sean Aylmer: banks of the inland waterways, for example, putting up fences, 108 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:13,649 Sean Aylmer: creating places for livestock to feed and drink water, reforestation, 109 00:07:14,039 --> 00:07:17,340 Sean Aylmer: it's not that difficult. I mean, in a practical sense, 110 00:07:17,670 --> 00:07:20,760 Sean Aylmer: it probably sometimes accessing these places, but it's not high- 111 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:21,299 Sean Aylmer: tech here. 112 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,230 Prof. Jamie Pittock: No, this ain't rocket science. What we're talking about doing 113 00:07:25,230 --> 00:07:30,119 Prof. Jamie Pittock: is taking bog- standard techniques that we've known, in many 114 00:07:30,119 --> 00:07:33,270 Prof. Jamie Pittock: cases, for decades, are the kinds of actions that are 115 00:07:33,270 --> 00:07:38,519 Prof. Jamie Pittock: needed to repair the environment. And what we're doing here 116 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,000 Prof. Jamie Pittock: is putting a total figure on the cost. And so 117 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,139 Prof. Jamie Pittock: in many respects, what this is, is setting the standard 118 00:07:46,230 --> 00:07:50,100 Prof. Jamie Pittock: to hold our governments to when it comes to funding 119 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:54,570 Prof. Jamie Pittock: environment programs. So we go into elections and a politician 120 00:07:54,570 --> 00:07:58,650 Prof. Jamie Pittock: says we should give 10 billion to save this frog 121 00:07:58,650 --> 00:08:03,300 Prof. Jamie Pittock: or a hundred million to plant trees. We don't know 122 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,900 Prof. Jamie Pittock: what proportion of the problem that would fix. And so 123 00:08:06,930 --> 00:08:10,410 Prof. Jamie Pittock: what we're doing here is ending ad hocery by setting 124 00:08:10,410 --> 00:08:14,099 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the standard by which we can measure all future investment 125 00:08:14,099 --> 00:08:16,680 Prof. Jamie Pittock: in the environment to get the total job done. 126 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:20,010 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So $ 7. 3 billion each year for 30 years. 127 00:08:20,309 --> 00:08:23,879 Sean Aylmer: It doesn't seem that much to me given what you 128 00:08:23,879 --> 00:08:25,140 Sean Aylmer: are hoping to achieve. 129 00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:28,200 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Well, I think that's right, that for a country as 130 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:33,839 Prof. Jamie Pittock: rich as Australia, surely we can afford to spend $ 7.3 131 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,089 Prof. Jamie Pittock: billion a year looking after the environment. After all, Australians 132 00:08:39,089 --> 00:08:44,458 Prof. Jamie Pittock: spend $ 33 billion a year looking after our pets. We give 133 00:08:44,460 --> 00:08:49,950 Prof. Jamie Pittock: away, from the federal budget, $ 11.8 billion to subsidize fossil 134 00:08:49,950 --> 00:08:54,718 Prof. Jamie Pittock: fuel use. Surely we can afford $ 7. 3 billion a 135 00:08:54,719 --> 00:09:00,840 Prof. Jamie Pittock: year to conserve our natural capital that underlies our economy 136 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:02,429 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and our lifestyle. 137 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,520 Sean Aylmer: And do you think this should be both public and 138 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:06,179 Sean Aylmer: private money? 139 00:09:07,050 --> 00:09:10,590 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Absolutely. We're not saying that the government should stump up 140 00:09:10,590 --> 00:09:14,070 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the entire bill. They do need to spend a lot 141 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:17,940 Prof. Jamie Pittock: more than they are. At the moment, they're only spending 142 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:22,620 Prof. Jamie Pittock: about a 10th of the $ 7. 3 billion a year from 143 00:09:22,620 --> 00:09:25,590 Prof. Jamie Pittock: the federal budget. We do think there's a lot of 144 00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:32,189 Prof. Jamie Pittock: room for private sector and philanthropic investment. And indeed that's 145 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:36,328 Prof. Jamie Pittock: not a radical concept, the federal government itself last year 146 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,550 Prof. Jamie Pittock: legislated to set up mechanisms for things like green bonds 147 00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:46,228 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and for a nature repair market that are intended to 148 00:09:46,230 --> 00:09:50,159 Prof. Jamie Pittock: attract the sort of capital that's needed for this repair effort. 149 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:54,029 Sean Aylmer: You launched this at the National Press Club this week. 150 00:09:54,090 --> 00:09:56,939 Sean Aylmer: What's the response been like? And I suppose more importantly, 151 00:09:56,940 --> 00:09:59,280 Sean Aylmer: do you think there's political will to act on it? 152 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:03,569 Prof. Jamie Pittock: Look, the response has been really, really positive so far, 153 00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:08,880 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and that delights us, obviously. But the sort of messages 154 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,830 Prof. Jamie Pittock: we're getting are that lots of different kinds of organizations 155 00:10:14,309 --> 00:10:16,858 Prof. Jamie Pittock: and people can see that they have a place in 156 00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:22,650 Prof. Jamie Pittock: this national repair mission. So yesterday at the launch, I 157 00:10:22,650 --> 00:10:26,940 Prof. Jamie Pittock: had Indigenous leaders come to me and say, " Yes, this 158 00:10:26,940 --> 00:10:31,440 Prof. Jamie Pittock: really justifies the role that Indigenous nations have in being 159 00:10:31,469 --> 00:10:35,130 Prof. Jamie Pittock: funded to contribute to the repair effort." We had the 160 00:10:35,130 --> 00:10:41,099 Prof. Jamie Pittock: regional natural resource management organizations. True confessions, I'm part of 161 00:10:41,099 --> 00:10:43,530 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that movement. I sit on the board of the peak 162 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:49,530 Prof. Jamie Pittock: body. But these are the 54 regional organizations around the country who 163 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:54,720 Prof. Jamie Pittock: have regional plans about where we should invest money in 164 00:10:55,230 --> 00:11:02,610 Prof. Jamie Pittock: repairing those areas. There were representatives of agricultural organizations saying 165 00:11:02,610 --> 00:11:07,828 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that they really welcomed the positive things that we were saying 166 00:11:07,830 --> 00:11:11,400 Prof. Jamie Pittock: that farmers can contribute to this mission. And I think 167 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,179 Prof. Jamie Pittock: there's a great many government agencies, who can't say so 168 00:11:15,179 --> 00:11:20,309 Prof. Jamie Pittock: publicly, but like the idea that we can put a 169 00:11:20,670 --> 00:11:24,749 Prof. Jamie Pittock: total cost on the mission and that then empowers them 170 00:11:24,750 --> 00:11:29,070 Prof. Jamie Pittock: to talk to their treasury and finance departments to see 171 00:11:29,070 --> 00:11:30,060 Prof. Jamie Pittock: how they can do more. 172 00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:32,550 Sean Aylmer: Professor Pittock, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 173 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:34,080 Prof. Jamie Pittock: It's been an immense pleasure, Sean. 174 00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:37,469 Sean Aylmer: That was Professor Jamie Pittock, member of the Wentworth Group 175 00:11:37,469 --> 00:11:41,310 Sean Aylmer: of Concerned Scientists, and co- author of the report, Blueprint 176 00:11:41,369 --> 00:11:44,280 Sean Aylmer: to Repair Australia's Landscapes. This is the Fear and Greed 177 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,800 Sean Aylmer: Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 178 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,230 Sean Aylmer: of Fear and Greed, business news for people who make 179 00:11:49,230 --> 00:11:51,780 Sean Aylmer: their own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.