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Speaker 1: Appoche production. This podcast contains discussion of child sexual assault

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Speaker 1: and psychological trauma. It's not recommended for younger listeners and

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Speaker 1: discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host Adam Shand. The disappearance and probable murder

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Speaker 1: of three year old Cheryl Grimmer at Ferry Meadow Beach

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Speaker 1: near Wollongong in New South Wales has become one of

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Speaker 1: Australia's best known cold cases one of the state's most

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Speaker 1: tragic and baffling miss traits. Three year old Cheryl Grimmer

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Speaker 1: disappeared from a Woongong beach more than five decades ago.

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Speaker 1: On January twelfth, nineteen seventy. Cheryl was with her family

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Speaker 1: on the beach. It was a blistering hot day before

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Speaker 1: a cool change hit at one thirty pm, sending people

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Speaker 1: scrambling off the beach. Cheryl's mum, Carol, sent her daughter

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Speaker 1: and her brothers to the shower block to wash before

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Speaker 1: going home. Ten minutes later, seven year old Ricky went

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Speaker 1: back to his mother to say Cheryl was refusing to

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Speaker 1: come out of the shower block. When Carol Grimmer got

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Speaker 1: to the shower block, Cheryl had disappeared. She's never been located, but.

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Speaker 2: My daughter I would like her buck unharmed as early

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Speaker 2: as quick as possible.

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Speaker 1: A year later, a troubled youth confessed to police, but

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Speaker 1: he was the one who'd abducted and murdered Cheryl.

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Speaker 2: He gained detectives a detailed confession, but that admission didn't

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Speaker 2: mean it was case closed.

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Speaker 1: But he was dismissed as an attention seeker and set free.

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Speaker 1: In March twenty seventeen, that individual was arrested and charged

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Speaker 1: was Cheryl's murder after New South Vald's detectives had discovered

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Speaker 1: the confession and corroborated key elements of it. However, the

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Speaker 1: prosecution was abruptly halted after a judge found that the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seven only one confession was inadmissible because an adult

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Speaker 1: was not present. Despite this crushing blow, Cheryl's brother Ricky

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Speaker 1: continues to fight for justice for his sister. Meanwhile, the suspect,

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Speaker 1: who cannot be named, hides behind the pseudonym Mercury. Ricky

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Speaker 1: continues to fight and mate, it's a pleasure to welcome

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Speaker 1: you to real crime. Thank you, you've been very busy.

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Speaker 1: I think of all the cases that I cover these

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Speaker 1: long term missing persons cases. It's always about pressure. You've

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Speaker 1: never stopped, You've never never stopped. How are you going now?

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Speaker 2: Still still a battle? Mate's still a battle. And if

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Speaker 2: I stop, or my family stop, on my brothers or

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Speaker 2: my cousin in the UK, we've got family fighting in

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Speaker 2: the UK for us as well. I mean, if we stop,

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Speaker 2: Cheryl gets forgotten. Case will never hear the light of

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Speaker 2: day in court. Boy stopped back in nineteen seventy one

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Speaker 2: and they just put all the boxes into the archives

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Speaker 2: and send them off to homicide. And that's where they sat,

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Speaker 2: per near on forty five years until twenty sixteen, because.

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Speaker 1: Twenty nineteen could have been a moment where you went.

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Speaker 1: That's just the ultimate roadblock. Where the judge says the

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Speaker 1: confession from nineteen seventy one by Mercury, which is so detailed,

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Speaker 1: so corroborated by other witnesses and other evidence, where the

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Speaker 1: judge says, on the basis of this sack the children's

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Speaker 1: criminal proceedings at that this confession was not admissible because

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Speaker 1: allegedly there wasn't an adult supervising or assisting Mercury as

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Speaker 1: we call it, because of legal reasons there wasn't an

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Speaker 1: adult there at the time of this very very good confession.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people would have just gone, that's too much,

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Speaker 1: it's too hard. I can't change the law as well

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Speaker 1: as find the killer, motivate police, keep my own family together,

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Speaker 1: keep my own sanity through all this. It's cost you

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Speaker 1: a lot, but you didn't stop. And I love the

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Speaker 1: way you've kept at it. And you kept hammering me.

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Speaker 1: What have you got? Do you know anybody else? And

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Speaker 1: I referred you to a couple of lawyers that I knew,

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Speaker 1: and they kind of said the same thing, that there's

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Speaker 1: nothing more you can do, but or you're indefatigable.

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Speaker 2: Allegedly not in the room. What if there was somebody there,

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Speaker 2: like You've got to understand. His confession was given after

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Speaker 2: police were called to the juvenile Boys' home in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: They were rung by a person by the name of

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Speaker 2: mister Leckey, who was one of the terrors at the home. Mercury,

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Speaker 2: as he's known, informed mister Lecky that he had some

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Speaker 2: information about the Cheryl Griomer case. Mister Lecky, after being

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Speaker 2: hearing this information, felt that police should have a chat

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Speaker 2: to this guy. So police were invited into the home

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Speaker 2: just to go there and listen to what information he

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Speaker 2: might have on the Cheryl Grumer case. Then after chatting

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Speaker 2: to him and the conversation starts, they realize and they

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Speaker 2: cautioned him. They stop him when they realize he's starting

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Speaker 2: to confess to the crime, and that's when they take

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Speaker 2: his confession. But was mister Lecky still in the room.

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Speaker 2: He's been invited like police have been invited. Isn't that

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Speaker 2: consent enough? Been invited into the home where he resides.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that consent enough for police to do their job?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I agree, and I think there's even some, at

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Speaker 1: least in my mind, confusion about well, where was he

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Speaker 1: in the home? Where did this interview even take place?

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Speaker 2: Correct? Was it just sitting in the launch room where

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Speaker 2: there are other people listening to it in the background,

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Speaker 2: although they weren't part of the conversation. Were there his

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Speaker 2: minders were there if they felt that he was threatened

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Speaker 2: in any way? This was in his home, not a

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Speaker 2: police station. And as I say, police were invited, they

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Speaker 2: didn't go there to take a confession from him. He

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Speaker 2: starts to confess. It was, as mister Finlay said, one

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Speaker 2: of the officers that was dictating the confession. He says,

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Speaker 2: it was just free, it flowed. We didn't have to

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Speaker 2: stop him. We had to slow him up because he

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Speaker 2: couldn't type quick enough. He didn't go back, he didn't

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Speaker 2: change his conversation in any way. It was just free flowing.

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Speaker 2: He just wanted to get it off his chest, so

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Speaker 2: thinly described to us, and unfortunately for us after that,

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Speaker 2: I mean, he then participated in a walk a few

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Speaker 2: days later, once again permission from the home take him

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Speaker 2: out of the home to do the walk through. So

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Speaker 2: police were doing everything right at the time until it

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Speaker 2: became time do we take this to the courts or

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Speaker 2: do we put it into a carboard box and forget

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Speaker 2: about it for forty five years, which is what they've done.

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Speaker 2: And this is so detailed. I recently met with the

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Speaker 2: Shadow ag at Parliament House in Sydney and he raised

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Speaker 2: a very valid question. Why wasn't he spoken to a

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Speaker 2: year later when he was eighteen? Why wasn't he spoken

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Speaker 2: to over the years. Why did it take forty five

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Speaker 2: years for this confession to be looked at again when

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Speaker 2: homicide should be reviewing their cases. I would have at

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Speaker 2: least thought yearly.

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Speaker 1: Because I understand somebody in the system of police at

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Speaker 1: the time decided that Mercury was an attention seeker, correct,

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Speaker 1: and that he he is a disturbed kid. He's got

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Speaker 1: mental health issues, probably some drug addiction issues as well.

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Speaker 1: But you make the very good point in the very

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Speaker 1: detailed eighteen nineteen pages summary, You've made that if you're

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Speaker 1: going to snatch a three year old girl from the

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Speaker 1: beach stranger, you're disturbed in the first place.

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Speaker 2: You are, And in his confession, he doesn't just abduct

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Speaker 2: her and then murderer. He wants to have physical sexual

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Speaker 2: intercourse with a three year old. You're not right in

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Speaker 2: the head. You're not You're just not right in the head.

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Speaker 1: With all due respect to Supreme Court Justice hum it's

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Speaker 1: not his faults specifically, but I see time and time

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Speaker 1: again the rights of the accused seemed to be looked

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Speaker 1: after more diligently than the rights of the victim.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl's voice hasn't once been heard. He didn't take her

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Speaker 2: rights into consideration at any time when he handed down

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Speaker 2: his judgment. Based on this retrospectiff of aw you'd understand this.

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Speaker 2: It's a law too that didn't come in for a

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Speaker 2: further six years down the track. Police done everything right

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Speaker 2: on the day they cautioned him at the time. It

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Speaker 2: did not need an adult present. Understand, if he was

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Speaker 2: another eight months older, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Speaker 2: He'd be locked up because the confession would have been

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Speaker 2: allowed in because it would have been eighteen even six

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Speaker 2: years later when the laws changed. This retrospective law surely

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Speaker 2: was not put in place to protect a self confess

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Speaker 2: child murderer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you make the point about possible vested

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Speaker 1: interest in this, and I think the system tends to

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Speaker 1: look after itself.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't like these inconvenient cases that ten particularly non

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Speaker 1: lawyers who come in and they change laws and they

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Speaker 1: change the way police have done things. But I can

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Speaker 1: see some pretty basic flaws in the original police investigation.

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Speaker 1: For instance, why was there no interview with mister Lecky

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Speaker 1: at the time to say, tell us the circumstances of

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Speaker 1: why we're here. Because just as helm in his wisdom says,

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Speaker 1: it's possible that Mercury was beguiled into a confession, even

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Speaker 1: within the laws and the conditions and the terms of

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Speaker 1: the day, it's important to know the context of a confession.

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Speaker 1: What was Mercury doing before this? At what point did

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Speaker 1: Lecky believe it was time to call the police. If

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Speaker 1: that had been done, we might have had a bit

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Speaker 1: more detail of what was actually going on in the

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Speaker 1: home on that day. What we don't So we were

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Speaker 1: starting behind the eight ball from the beginning, unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there are many things. I mean, when

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Speaker 2: you get such a detailed confession, an eight page home

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Speaker 2: page confession, and one of the officers at the time,

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Speaker 2: mister Finlay, he said if he was not the junior officer,

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Speaker 2: he was a senior officer, he would have charged him

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Speaker 2: because he believed every word he was saying. At the time.

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Speaker 2: We're only fourteen months after Cheryl's gone missing. There are

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Speaker 2: lots of witnesses that still remember a lot of information.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of people on that beach. What

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Speaker 2: did they not put him in a lineup and just

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Speaker 2: see who could pick him? What was he at the

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Speaker 2: beach on the day? That would have been a stunt.

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Speaker 2: Why did they not video the walkthrough that they'd done

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Speaker 2: with him where Vickery took them? Why did they not

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Speaker 2: have photographic evidence? This is a very detail confession. I mean,

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Speaker 2: why wasn't correct policing done, or if it's done, if

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Speaker 2: it's somewhere, where is it buried? I mean you would think.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy, a few days after Cheryl went missing,

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Speaker 2: police received a ransom note. Unfortunately, they advertised what was

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Speaker 2: in that ransom note to the general public where the

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Speaker 2: ransom was due to be picked up on the Saturday

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Speaker 2: eleven am at Bullye Library And it's like a circus.

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Speaker 1: I was selling ice creams.

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Speaker 2: They were selling ice creams. And Wollongong University professor said

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Speaker 2: he was actually there on the day. It's in the podcast,

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Speaker 2: the Ferry Meadow Podcast and he said he's thought it

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Speaker 2: was just fascical. How could you do this? This is

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Speaker 2: the only solid lead that they had. This is within

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Speaker 2: the week of Cheryl going missing. Yet they advertise it

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Speaker 2: to the world and they turn it into a circus.

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Speaker 1: And particularly looking back on it now, the handwriting expert

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Speaker 1: called Clark goes down there and looks at this letter

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Speaker 1: which says if you give us ten thousand dollars, will

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Speaker 1: handshare all over. He concludes that it's the handwriting of

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Speaker 1: a fourteen or fifteen year old individual. Yes, well, surprise, surprise,

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Speaker 1: Mercury was exactly that age at that time.

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Speaker 2: Yes he was.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder even now, and you maybe i'd answer

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Speaker 1: this question. I presume that letter is still in the

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Speaker 1: evidence somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yes it is.

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Speaker 1: Could it not be compared to an example of Mercury's

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Speaker 1: handwriting today? Has a Has that been done?

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Speaker 2: I believe it should, and I believe it hasn't been

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Speaker 2: done to this date. I mean, here, you've got thirteen

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Speaker 2: months later, this now seventeen year old confesses in detail.

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Speaker 2: Thirteen months ago, you get a ransom note where you believe,

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Speaker 2: with your experts looking at it was written by a

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Speaker 2: fourteen to fifteen year old. Wouldn't you connect the two

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Speaker 2: dots and say, okay, well, let's have a look at this.

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Speaker 2: It's still a lineup. Let's do this thing. This really

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Speaker 2: needs to be looked at.

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Speaker 1: I go only assume that they thought, oh, this couldn't

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Speaker 1: be a teenage boy. How could someone have done this

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Speaker 1: heenous crime? This must be either someone known to the fact.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, in those days these things were almost

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Speaker 1: a social welfare issue rather than a police matter. When

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Speaker 1: kids went missing and the finger of suspicion was normally

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Speaker 1: pointed at the family first, that something must have happened

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Speaker 1: and they're coming up. The Bonones went through the same

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Speaker 1: process years earlier and in South Australia, so inexplicable mistakes

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Speaker 1: one after the other. And we can go to the

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Speaker 1: details of many stuff ups that have happened since. But

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Speaker 1: I wonder an overarching apology to your family has it

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Speaker 1: ever been delivered now?

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Speaker 2: Even recently when I've attended a search with the Sydney

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Speaker 2: Search Dog Team.

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Speaker 1: Police.

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Speaker 2: Eventually after the Sydney Search Dog Team locating what they

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Speaker 2: believe some human remains, showed up on Friday last Friday,

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Speaker 2: three hours late, sat around, done nothing, didn't come and

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Speaker 2: talk to me or anything. I'm standing there and there

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Speaker 2: was lots of media there and stuff like that. They

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Speaker 2: couldn't even have the decency to come over and say hello,

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Speaker 2: where he now? Will do what we can for you

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Speaker 2: and the family? Nothing. They sent their Cadiva dog along

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Speaker 2: with a couple of officers up to the area. Press

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Speaker 2: weren't allowed up there, we weren't allowed that, no photos

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Speaker 2: take and know nothing. Yet within forty minutes they come

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Speaker 2: back with what they call bones. Didn't tell us it

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Speaker 2: was in the report later on a few hours later,

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Speaker 2: and then a few hours later these were determined to

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Speaker 2: be animal bones. So they looked for forty minutes and

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Speaker 2: that was their effort for the day, and that was

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Speaker 2: enough for them.

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Speaker 1: You'll talk about this search. I think it's a very

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Speaker 1: important piece of the evidence because Mercury and his confession

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Speaker 1: and his discussions with the police afterwards, nominates a specific

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Speaker 1: place where he took Cheryl and attempted to her, strangled her,

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Speaker 1: and then left her body under a tree or next

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Speaker 1: to a tree covered in brush. And days later there's

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Speaker 1: a report from a local same there's flocks of crows

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Speaker 1: over that area and it corresponds to the same place

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Speaker 1: broke his nose. I believe it's called in balgowniep How

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Speaker 1: far is that away from very minute?

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Speaker 2: About three kilometers so about a thirty minute.

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Speaker 1: Walk right, Quite possible to walk there. So never searched,

264
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Speaker 1: never searched. So Chris Darcy, for whom I have tremendous

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Speaker 1: admiration for what he does. What an asset to have

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Speaker 1: in your team. So he comes along with Rufus the dog.

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Speaker 1: You were there when the search was going on, tell

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Speaker 1: us what happened.

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Speaker 2: Started and early in the morning we got there sixty

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Speaker 2: minutes for there. They were there for a bit and

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Speaker 2: then once we got going, Chris myself, we've just started walking,

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Speaker 2: started let the dog do it. Seeing I just stayed back,

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Speaker 2: stayed out of the way. And it wasn't till really

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Speaker 2: late in the afternoon, and funny enough, I had a

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Speaker 2: I just wanted some time out on my own, because

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Speaker 2: I'd sort of been busy with sixty minutes in the morning,

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Speaker 2: and I just wanted some time out. So I just

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Speaker 2: started walking through the creek bed looking for areas from

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Speaker 2: my point of view, that haven't been disturbed in the

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Speaker 2: last forty to fifty sixty years. I wanted to find areas,

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Speaker 2: and I found a bit at the top of the

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Speaker 2: creek that to me looked untouched for the last fifty

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Speaker 2: sixty years. And I just sat there for a bit,

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Speaker 2: and then I went back down and Chris was having

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Speaker 2: a bit of a rest and Rufus was having a rest,

286
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Speaker 2: and I asked Chris, I said, look, would you mind

287
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Speaker 2: having a look up at the top section of this

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Speaker 2: creek area? He said, yore, whatever the family is, whatever

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Speaker 2: you need, And later that afternoon he took Rufus up

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Speaker 2: at the top of the creek and he came back

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Speaker 2: and he said, we may have located something. Ricky, he said,

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Speaker 2: but don't want you're anywhere near it. But we may

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Speaker 2: have located something, so can stay out of that. I

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Speaker 2: was shaking because I thought it was a one in

295
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Speaker 2: in a ten million shot of finding something. Anyway, he said, look,

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Speaker 2: we're going to let everything cool down today. We've had enough.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to come early tomorrow morning with the dog.

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Speaker 2: I don't want you here. I'm just going to let

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Speaker 2: Rupus do his thing.

300
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Speaker 1: Because it's potentially a crime scene. You don't want any

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Speaker 1: possibility that the family might have interfered or done something

302
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Speaker 1: to contaminate the crime scene. It's a really sensitive moment.

303
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Speaker 2: Very and I mean Rufus and Chris, they're really not

304
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Speaker 2: looking for bones. They're looking for something in the soil,

305
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Speaker 2: DNA residue because it's been now approaching fifty six years.

306
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Speaker 1: And depending on the acidity of the soil, often there

307
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Speaker 1: is nothing left there except traces of residue of human remains.

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Speaker 1: And Chris was very clear when I spoke to him

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Speaker 1: during that search. He said, we're not looking for bones,

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Speaker 1: it's a residue. So he understood the soils there and he.

311
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Speaker 2: Believed that the soil there is great soil to hold DNA,

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Speaker 2: to hold residue within the soil. And then when I

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Speaker 2: went back that morning, he said, the dog has gone

314
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Speaker 2: back to the same area Riki and has done the

315
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Speaker 2: same reaction, not the normal reaction that the dog would

316
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Speaker 2: normally give, but a reaction in the identical same place

317
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Speaker 2: that he found the day before. So under consultation he

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Speaker 2: spoke to Frank sam Viertali was at the research as well.

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Speaker 1: He was the original well not the vision but the

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Speaker 1: investigators into twenty fifteen sixteen with Damian Luhn, who really

321
00:18:40,041 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 1: breathe life into this whole investigation.

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Speaker 2: And after they spoke for a while, Chris felt that

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Speaker 2: it was prudent now to call police in and what

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Speaker 2: he said, he believes it now to be a crime area.

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Speaker 2: Police came later that afternoon, no dogs, no nothing, went

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Speaker 2: up and had a look. Didn't leave anybody at the

327
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Speaker 2: site to guard the site overnight, just said look, we'll

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Speaker 2: come back at nine am on the Friday morning with

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Speaker 2: a dog with their own dog and forensics. They did

330
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Speaker 2: speak to me on that Thursday to detectives that I

331
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Speaker 2: never saw on the Friday and said, look, we'll bring forensics,

332
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Speaker 2: we'll bring our dog down, we'll start nine am Friday morning.

333
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Speaker 2: And I questioned them at the time, and I said, well,

334
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Speaker 2: if it's a crime, so now would you not tape

335
00:19:28,241 --> 00:19:31,401
Speaker 2: it off and leave somebody here overnight? I believe one

336
00:19:31,441 --> 00:19:35,561
Speaker 2: of the officers did try made an attempt to have

337
00:19:35,681 --> 00:19:40,001
Speaker 2: somebody stationed near the site, but that fell on death

338
00:19:40,201 --> 00:19:42,881
Speaker 2: is and no one was left there. So anybody could

339
00:19:42,921 --> 00:19:45,041
Speaker 2: have went on the site would have been a bit

340
00:19:45,041 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 2: difficult to find, but you know, it could have happened.

341
00:19:47,961 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 2: Somebody could have went to this. Well, the practice diligence,

342
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 2: show some effort. I felt, Ill, if my sister is

343
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,961
Speaker 2: there and she's been there for near on fifty six years,

344
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Speaker 2: lying there on her own, now, I mean, I wasn't

345
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 2: the search a done right back in the day, you know,

346
00:20:05,801 --> 00:20:10,561
Speaker 2: the day that Mercury took and led police to that site.

347
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,481
Speaker 2: Why wasn't a diligent search done then?

348
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Speaker 1: Well, wasn't there the excuse profited that, Well, it was

349
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,961
Speaker 1: a dairy farm when this has occurred, But there was

350
00:20:21,001 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 1: a housing development by the time they go back again,

351
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,041
Speaker 1: so the area is now, it's changed.

352
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Speaker 2: Was that the excuse back in the day most likely,

353
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 2: but it's untouched this area that we were conducting and

354
00:20:35,441 --> 00:20:40,400
Speaker 2: with Sydney search dogs, it's untouched. Funny enough, there's a

355
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Speaker 2: house directly across the road from where Chris and his

356
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 2: team set up camp, and there was an Oldish lady

357
00:20:48,521 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 2: out the front doing her gardening and looking wondering what

358
00:20:51,441 --> 00:20:54,001
Speaker 2: was going on. As a lot of the locals came

359
00:20:54,041 --> 00:20:56,961
Speaker 2: out and offered to make lunch and teas and coffee

360
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,441
Speaker 2: because they know about Cheryl and stuff like that. When

361
00:20:59,441 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: they realized it was a search for Cheryl, and Frank

362
00:21:03,441 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: sam Fittali happened to be speaking to the lady across

363
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,161
Speaker 2: the road. She's an old Italian lady. She's been there

364
00:21:10,441 --> 00:21:16,521
Speaker 2: over sixty years. She has photos of what he documents

365
00:21:16,681 --> 00:21:19,481
Speaker 2: in his confession, where the category was, where the fence

366
00:21:19,521 --> 00:21:23,241
Speaker 2: line is, where the serpentine trees were. Everything he's got

367
00:21:23,241 --> 00:21:26,841
Speaker 2: in his confession. We believe she has photos. She can

368
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,761
Speaker 2: remember the cattlegory, she remembers the serpentine trees, she remembers

369
00:21:30,801 --> 00:21:31,241
Speaker 2: the wire.

370
00:21:32,041 --> 00:21:36,201
Speaker 1: I love the diligence of San Vitali and Loon whereby

371
00:21:36,241 --> 00:21:39,041
Speaker 1: the caval grid gets excluded at some point because it

372
00:21:39,041 --> 00:21:41,041
Speaker 1: couldn't have been there at that time. But then there's

373
00:21:41,041 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: more inquiries and no, no, actually it was there, and

374
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,721
Speaker 1: another witnesses found to actually corroborate that. So all along

375
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Speaker 1: I see a strange reluctance to accept key planks of

376
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Speaker 1: Mercury's confession and to exclude them as superficially as possible.

377
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,001
Speaker 1: And it's been your job and a couple of diligent

378
00:22:00,041 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 1: police to actually reinstate this confession. And of course they hadn't.

379
00:22:04,801 --> 00:22:07,401
Speaker 1: They were the first ones to look at this. I mean,

380
00:22:07,441 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: this has been there since nineteen seventy one. And I

381
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,801
Speaker 1: note that there was one of the reviews was a

382
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: detective who was at the academy doing an assignment, and

383
00:22:16,041 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 1: he could find it. But then when you get to

384
00:22:17,921 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: the inquest, so twenty eleven, I think it was they

385
00:22:20,801 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: can't even find the two suspects. They can't find Mercury

386
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,120
Speaker 1: with the other Poratini I think his name was.

387
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 2: It's correct.

388
00:22:26,321 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 1: They couldn't even find them. It couldn't curse the research.

389
00:22:28,481 --> 00:22:32,401
Speaker 1: And then lun and Sanvitali find him in two hours, Mercury.

390
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,321
Speaker 2: Under two hours. They had his address, God had his

391
00:22:34,481 --> 00:22:39,561
Speaker 2: driver's license. Yet I think his name Sergeant Dark. At

392
00:22:39,561 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 2: the time him and his team went. He done the

393
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: review for the twenty eleven inquest, and I may have

394
00:22:45,721 --> 00:22:48,921
Speaker 2: took forty one years for an inquest. There's another story,

395
00:22:49,721 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: and part of that inquest was the guy in the

396
00:22:52,201 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: academy doing a review in the academy. Wow. Okay, so

397
00:22:57,801 --> 00:23:00,041
Speaker 2: not even a police officer yet, and that's part of

398
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,361
Speaker 2: what he had to do to get his detective badge

399
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,961
Speaker 2: and so on. But when question by the coroner, mister

400
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,561
Speaker 2: Dark informed the coroner that his team had made an

401
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: exhaustive effort to find the author of this confession. So

402
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,241
Speaker 2: it was touched on in the twenty eleven inquest, which

403
00:23:19,561 --> 00:23:23,201
Speaker 2: I wasn't part of. I wasn't there. But another five

404
00:23:23,241 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: or six years later, the author can be found in

405
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 2: hours by one detective.

406
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 1: He's not hiding, although he did. I know that he

407
00:23:30,921 --> 00:23:32,880
Speaker 1: did change his name at a certain point.

408
00:23:33,041 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: He has changed his name for reasons unbeknown so us.

409
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:42,841
Speaker 2: Why you wonder that's great? So did mister Dark mislead

410
00:23:42,961 --> 00:23:46,161
Speaker 2: the coroner or did he blatantly lie to the coroner?

411
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,761
Speaker 3: Well, in my experience, conspiracy or funck. U've always go

412
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,001
Speaker 3: for a fuck up and I think that's probably what

413
00:23:53,001 --> 00:23:54,921
Speaker 3: we'll be looking at here. Pretty lazy effort. I don't

414
00:23:54,921 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 3: want to fame the man, but I think a pretty

415
00:23:56,681 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: lazy effort. And I think the evidence speaks for itself.

416
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 3: They couldn't find the main suspect, really, and everyone went

417
00:24:02,001 --> 00:24:04,321
Speaker 3: along with that. I mean, I think a decent coroner

418
00:24:04,321 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: would have said, go on, go back and do some

419
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: more work.

420
00:24:07,961 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: Find the death certificate of the author, okay, because they

421
00:24:11,521 --> 00:24:14,801
Speaker 2: knew who the author was. And as I say, six

422
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,921
Speaker 2: years later, he was found in a couple of hours

423
00:24:17,281 --> 00:24:19,921
Speaker 2: by one detective, a couple of pushes of the keyboard,

424
00:24:19,921 --> 00:24:22,761
Speaker 2: and there is larger than life. They had his address,

425
00:24:22,801 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: they had his driver's license, they had where he worked,

426
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,041
Speaker 2: everything within hours. So either mister Dark, as I said,

427
00:24:29,241 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: lied blatantly, lied, misled lazy. He should have said, look,

428
00:24:33,921 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: we really haven't put in much effort to look for

429
00:24:36,441 --> 00:24:41,241
Speaker 2: the author. We disregard the confession. I mean, the confession

430
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,001
Speaker 2: sat there for forty one years. Forty years sat there,

431
00:24:45,441 --> 00:24:49,681
Speaker 2: such a detailed confession. I think police should be embarrassed

432
00:24:49,681 --> 00:24:51,721
Speaker 2: that they didn't pick it up again and look at it,

433
00:24:51,761 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: you know, over the years, and say, oh, was this

434
00:24:54,761 --> 00:24:56,641
Speaker 2: guy wasting our top. Let's get him in again. Let's

435
00:24:56,681 --> 00:24:58,961
Speaker 2: have a look at this, you know, I mean, because

436
00:24:59,120 --> 00:24:59,841
Speaker 2: I suppose.

437
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: You can see failure was search failure to find they

438
00:25:02,521 --> 00:25:07,761
Speaker 1: stopped working on the case for forty odd years. What

439
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,721
Speaker 1: happens that at least evident of the family.

440
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: Nothing, We were told nothing, they'd done nothing. They just

441
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,241
Speaker 2: forgot about Cheryl And when it did get picked up,

442
00:25:18,721 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: is it now total embarrassment for them? In twenty and sixteen,

443
00:25:23,321 --> 00:25:27,001
Speaker 2: You've got to understand the New South Wales authorities, the

444
00:25:27,201 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: legal system gave mister Leerne, Damen Learn and Frank sam

445
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,081
Speaker 2: Bertali a warrant to arrest Mercury. So now it's all

446
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,321
Speaker 2: all of a sudden being taken very serious. He's going

447
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,681
Speaker 2: to be arrested, He's going to be charged. They formally

448
00:25:42,721 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: interview him at Frankston Police station where he takes ownership

449
00:25:46,001 --> 00:25:52,081
Speaker 2: of the confession. Again, He's charged, arrested and extradited, all

450
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:57,401
Speaker 2: approved by the authorities Victorian and New South Wales at

451
00:25:57,441 --> 00:26:01,561
Speaker 2: the time. When he walks into Frankston Police station to

452
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,041
Speaker 2: be interviewed, he's told, you know, to bring lawyers come down.

453
00:26:06,561 --> 00:26:08,681
Speaker 2: We're going to chat to you about something he knows

454
00:26:08,721 --> 00:26:11,521
Speaker 2: what he's going to be spoken about, because he admitted.

455
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:16,281
Speaker 2: He basically confessed again to mister sam Fatali the week

456
00:26:16,321 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: before when he rang Frank Samfertali to say, I believe

457
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,041
Speaker 2: you're looking for me. What's it in relation? And Frank said, well,

458
00:26:24,241 --> 00:26:29,161
Speaker 2: you tell me. He actually says to Frank Samfertali, it's

459
00:26:29,201 --> 00:26:32,281
Speaker 2: about something I've done years ago, and very beach he

460
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:32,801
Speaker 2: called it.

461
00:26:33,761 --> 00:26:35,041
Speaker 1: Frank's a good detective, isn't he.

462
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: As much as this has broken our family, it's broken

463
00:26:38,761 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 2: him as well.

464
00:26:39,441 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: He's yeah, he's told me in the past how the

465
00:26:42,961 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: disappointment of this and the seeming like a common sense

466
00:26:47,761 --> 00:26:50,721
Speaker 1: or anything he can has caused him lot of trauma.

467
00:26:51,001 --> 00:26:53,521
Speaker 1: The fact that he has nightmares where he does see

468
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,201
Speaker 1: Cheryl and he feels like he failed.

469
00:26:55,961 --> 00:27:01,201
Speaker 2: Well, he's challenging, understand, when he's supporting us, he's challenging

470
00:27:01,241 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: what he worked twenty five years for in the police.

471
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: He's that now and he can't put his finger on

472
00:27:07,801 --> 00:27:11,281
Speaker 2: nor can any of us. Why Sheryl's case has been

473
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: such a mess. And as I said, from the days,

474
00:27:14,961 --> 00:27:18,321
Speaker 2: the first days that she went missing, he said, it's

475
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,961
Speaker 2: the case that no one wants heard now, as we

476
00:27:22,001 --> 00:27:26,521
Speaker 2: believe no one wants this case heard because of these mistakes.

477
00:27:26,921 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: We were told in twenty seventeen at the first hearing

478
00:27:31,761 --> 00:27:36,241
Speaker 2: for mercury at Wongong Supreme Court, we were told by

479
00:27:36,921 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: Crown Prosecutor we've got the right guy. They've got the

480
00:27:41,241 --> 00:27:44,281
Speaker 2: right guy. He will be serving the rest of his

481
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,321
Speaker 2: life in jail or he will be fat found guilty.

482
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,801
Speaker 2: But for me to do that, unfortunately for you and

483
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,561
Speaker 2: your family, you're going to have to hear about all

484
00:27:54,681 --> 00:27:59,041
Speaker 2: the mistakes that were made. He knows the mistakes, so

485
00:27:59,201 --> 00:28:01,921
Speaker 2: now tell us as a family what those mistakes were.

486
00:28:02,921 --> 00:28:06,361
Speaker 2: He says, I will stay on this case from the

487
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,721
Speaker 2: start to the very end. Two weeks later, he's moved

488
00:28:10,761 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 2: off the case. So called gets a promotion in Sydney.

489
00:28:15,761 --> 00:28:20,361
Speaker 2: Weeks later, Frank Sampatali's move left damn Loon who's got

490
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: a promotion somewhere out towards Tanworth. So the three key

491
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: players and they're still in this guy's locked up, put away.

492
00:28:29,761 --> 00:28:34,921
Speaker 2: They're still working on one of Australia's oldest cold cases.

493
00:28:35,321 --> 00:28:39,041
Speaker 2: We've got the perpetrator, he's locked away. Yet why do

494
00:28:39,121 --> 00:28:42,041
Speaker 2: you move all the pieces of the chessboard. Why why

495
00:28:42,041 --> 00:28:42,641
Speaker 2: would you do that?

496
00:28:43,361 --> 00:28:47,081
Speaker 1: So we get twenty nineteen Supreme Court rules that his

497
00:28:47,281 --> 00:28:52,881
Speaker 1: confession is inadmissible. He's clearly lying in one or other

498
00:28:53,041 --> 00:28:57,881
Speaker 1: of his statements, so it all kind of all stops again.

499
00:28:58,561 --> 00:29:02,241
Speaker 2: They just let him walk out in February of twenty nineteen,

500
00:29:02,401 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: and they haven't spoken to him since. Yeah, we've given

501
00:29:06,401 --> 00:29:09,921
Speaker 2: a lot of people came forward to our family and said, look,

502
00:29:10,001 --> 00:29:13,321
Speaker 2: we've worked with this character. These are the things, these

503
00:29:13,321 --> 00:29:17,201
Speaker 2: are his traits over many, many years, long before he

504
00:29:17,321 --> 00:29:21,361
Speaker 2: was arrested in twenty seventeen. These are the things he

505
00:29:21,481 --> 00:29:23,761
Speaker 2: used to do at his place of work. These are

506
00:29:23,761 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: the things he used to show us. And believe it

507
00:29:26,521 --> 00:29:30,641
Speaker 2: or not, he used to show his colleagues Cheryl's case

508
00:29:31,081 --> 00:29:33,401
Speaker 2: and admitted to them. He said, if I'd done that,

509
00:29:33,561 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: I'd never get caught. Well, so far he's right, but

510
00:29:38,081 --> 00:29:39,841
Speaker 2: his time's running out.

511
00:29:40,081 --> 00:29:43,081
Speaker 1: I've got a single out that source from his workplace

512
00:29:43,121 --> 00:29:46,441
Speaker 1: who is just another fantastic supporter of you and your

513
00:29:46,481 --> 00:29:49,601
Speaker 1: family and just never stops. I mean I get messages

514
00:29:49,681 --> 00:29:52,521
Speaker 1: proving all the time, you know, but I take it

515
00:29:52,561 --> 00:29:55,801
Speaker 1: seriously because he really cares. And you can see onny

516
00:29:55,801 --> 00:29:59,081
Speaker 1: people do care, and to the point where other witnesses

517
00:29:59,121 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: have come forward as a result of the BBC podcast

518
00:30:01,921 --> 00:30:05,881
Speaker 1: Very Meta, in particular a young but he was then

519
00:30:05,921 --> 00:30:09,281
Speaker 1: young nine and seventy seven year old boy with his

520
00:30:09,641 --> 00:30:13,401
Speaker 1: migrant family living in the hostel there. He gives a

521
00:30:13,561 --> 00:30:18,681
Speaker 1: very detailed description of seeing a youth carrying a young

522
00:30:18,761 --> 00:30:22,041
Speaker 1: child away. I mean it's a dramatic scene. Obviously a hot,

523
00:30:22,081 --> 00:30:25,161
Speaker 1: hot day, and the winds changed and suddenly the ear

524
00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:28,401
Speaker 1: I was diving off the beach. He did itself and

525
00:30:28,961 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: he captures all that detail. He comes forward. What's happened

526
00:30:33,201 --> 00:30:34,001
Speaker 1: with his testimony?

527
00:30:34,881 --> 00:30:38,321
Speaker 2: Not think they haven't even spoken to him, No statement taken,

528
00:30:38,561 --> 00:30:41,841
Speaker 2: no nothing. I mean I believe they called him. Yeah,

529
00:30:42,121 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: five minute conversations to say, look, we will interview you

530
00:30:45,041 --> 00:30:47,881
Speaker 2: at a later date. Nothing to date.

531
00:30:49,601 --> 00:30:51,841
Speaker 1: I did unsadly. I did follow up with Ane of

532
00:30:51,881 --> 00:30:55,361
Speaker 1: the homicide detectives and ask that question why walk, Why

533
00:30:55,401 --> 00:31:00,641
Speaker 1: wouldn't you And the response was well, there's no contemporaneous

534
00:31:00,681 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: note at the time, there's no diagram, there's no drawing.

535
00:31:04,161 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: We would be concerned that if he put him in

536
00:31:05,961 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: the box, he would be destroyed, that he would that

537
00:31:09,281 --> 00:31:11,361
Speaker 1: they could introduce the idea that he must have seen

538
00:31:11,641 --> 00:31:14,721
Speaker 1: or heard the podcast or seen the publicity and they're

539
00:31:14,761 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: simply making it up. How would you know until you

540
00:31:17,721 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: meet him and take the statement. Okay, sit down with

541
00:31:21,041 --> 00:31:21,801
Speaker 1: him for an hour or two.

542
00:31:21,961 --> 00:31:25,801
Speaker 2: Damien Lehne actually spoke to him for over an hour,

543
00:31:25,881 --> 00:31:29,361
Speaker 2: and Damien said he's very creditable and at the very

544
00:31:29,441 --> 00:31:31,201
Speaker 2: least points should have taken his statement.

545
00:31:31,481 --> 00:31:34,761
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this's probably the logical question is, well,

546
00:31:34,881 --> 00:31:36,521
Speaker 1: why did you hang on to it for so long?

547
00:31:36,681 --> 00:31:39,361
Speaker 1: Why didn't you say anything? At the time, I understand

548
00:31:39,401 --> 00:31:42,601
Speaker 1: that they were recent arrivals in Australia, didn't have much English,

549
00:31:42,641 --> 00:31:45,561
Speaker 1: did they have a television, so didn't understand the significance.

550
00:31:45,601 --> 00:31:48,841
Speaker 1: But later on he realizes, hey, I think I've seen

551
00:31:49,321 --> 00:31:50,641
Speaker 1: Cheryl Grimmer being abducted.

552
00:31:50,881 --> 00:31:54,121
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I'd have to sit down with him

553
00:31:54,121 --> 00:31:57,121
Speaker 2: and ask his reasons and stuff. And obviously people that

554
00:31:57,201 --> 00:32:00,281
Speaker 2: have known him that the BBC have spoken to as well,

555
00:32:00,321 --> 00:32:03,561
Speaker 2: like people that know him today, said you know, is

556
00:32:03,601 --> 00:32:05,921
Speaker 2: this guy looking for attention? And they all said no,

557
00:32:06,601 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: this is eating him up over the years. He really

558
00:32:09,721 --> 00:32:11,921
Speaker 2: didn't know what he saw on that day. Obviously, no

559
00:32:12,001 --> 00:32:15,801
Speaker 2: televisions his family didn't have any televisions and it wasn't

560
00:32:15,881 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: until years later that he realized what he saw. But

561
00:32:20,001 --> 00:32:22,841
Speaker 2: I believed speaking with Damon, that he thought it was

562
00:32:22,881 --> 00:32:24,601
Speaker 2: too late, there's nothing that could be done.

563
00:32:24,641 --> 00:32:24,801
Speaker 1: Now.

564
00:32:24,881 --> 00:32:26,841
Speaker 2: This was when I say years later, I mean many

565
00:32:26,921 --> 00:32:29,841
Speaker 2: years later. He's now a teenager, he's got a new

566
00:32:29,881 --> 00:32:32,881
Speaker 2: life in Australia now and stuff like that. So for

567
00:32:33,041 --> 00:32:37,641
Speaker 2: him to come forward and want to speak to police

568
00:32:37,681 --> 00:32:41,121
Speaker 2: at the time, it wasn't interested in the reward. He

569
00:32:41,281 --> 00:32:44,641
Speaker 2: just wanted to tell them what he believed he saw

570
00:32:45,001 --> 00:32:47,401
Speaker 2: on the day. Yeah, and also what I didn't know

571
00:32:47,521 --> 00:32:50,121
Speaker 2: at the time. I spoke to that amicide detective who said,

572
00:32:50,681 --> 00:32:53,721
Speaker 2: your witness is just a one out you get carved

573
00:32:53,761 --> 00:32:55,721
Speaker 2: up in the box. What I didn't know he didn't

574
00:32:55,761 --> 00:33:02,041
Speaker 2: know was that witness's later girlfriend corroborates his story.

575
00:33:02,761 --> 00:33:03,641
Speaker 1: He told her.

576
00:33:03,841 --> 00:33:07,321
Speaker 2: Many years ago, years before this million dollar reward. He

577
00:33:07,481 --> 00:33:11,601
Speaker 2: actually told her. And there was another another lady that

578
00:33:11,681 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: knows him. I believe she's a professor at Wollongong Universe

579
00:33:14,481 --> 00:33:17,361
Speaker 2: and knows him as well, and he has told her

580
00:33:17,401 --> 00:33:19,601
Speaker 2: the story over years as well what he saw on

581
00:33:19,641 --> 00:33:22,641
Speaker 2: that day, and she urged him over the years to

582
00:33:22,761 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: come forward and tell his story. He eventually has, you

583
00:33:27,801 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: offer a million dollar reward, but you don't speak to

584
00:33:30,641 --> 00:33:32,801
Speaker 2: like I believe, there's like three people that now have

585
00:33:32,921 --> 00:33:36,401
Speaker 2: come forward as a result of the BBC or Meadow podcast,

586
00:33:37,681 --> 00:33:41,921
Speaker 2: not one has been spoken to. There were five informants

587
00:33:42,001 --> 00:33:46,841
Speaker 2: that came forward that used to work with Mercury, and

588
00:33:47,521 --> 00:33:49,801
Speaker 2: not one of those have been spoken to. So we've

589
00:33:49,801 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: now got eight people sitting out there with information that

590
00:33:53,721 --> 00:34:01,001
Speaker 2: could get Cheryl's case moving forward. Eight people with solid information.

591
00:34:01,841 --> 00:34:05,401
Speaker 2: There was one one work colleague that he stated he

592
00:34:05,481 --> 00:34:08,681
Speaker 2: used to steal cars and drive them to Ferry Meadow Beach.

593
00:34:09,201 --> 00:34:13,201
Speaker 2: That's pretty solid information because now you're saying you've never

594
00:34:13,201 --> 00:34:15,281
Speaker 2: been to ferry Meadow Breach, but you've told a work

595
00:34:15,321 --> 00:34:18,241
Speaker 2: colleague because you're in a I believe it's his way

596
00:34:18,281 --> 00:34:23,521
Speaker 2: of gloating showing Cheryl's case. It's your way of gloating.

597
00:34:23,601 --> 00:34:26,441
Speaker 2: You're getting it out there, You're feeling good about yourself,

598
00:34:26,481 --> 00:34:30,881
Speaker 2: You've gotten away with it. It's not on the radar in Victoria.

599
00:34:31,001 --> 00:34:34,001
Speaker 2: That's probably why hidden Victoria, because it's not on the radar.

600
00:34:34,561 --> 00:34:39,761
Speaker 2: Advertised very heavily when it first happened and since twenty sixteen,

601
00:34:40,721 --> 00:34:45,081
Speaker 2: but once again, mostly in New South Wales, he's avoided

602
00:34:45,321 --> 00:34:50,041
Speaker 2: the spotlight. But from seventy one to twenty and sixteen

603
00:34:50,041 --> 00:34:53,361
Speaker 2: there's nothing about Cheryl Grimmer. So he's feeling really comfortable

604
00:34:53,401 --> 00:34:55,721
Speaker 2: in his work environment. I'm going to show my work

605
00:34:55,721 --> 00:35:00,681
Speaker 2: colleagues we believe his own daughter thought she was Cheryl Grimmer.

606
00:35:01,401 --> 00:35:03,561
Speaker 1: Yes, I've read this. Also, I don't think it's ever

607
00:35:03,601 --> 00:35:06,281
Speaker 1: been any effort to try to look at the code

608
00:35:06,281 --> 00:35:09,921
Speaker 1: of people who was in the Boy's Home or New

609
00:35:09,961 --> 00:35:13,081
Speaker 1: Mercury back in those days. There's also evidence of another

610
00:35:13,241 --> 00:35:15,961
Speaker 1: residence in Sydney separate to the Boy's Home where he

611
00:35:16,041 --> 00:35:18,801
Speaker 1: was staying. What about the people who were with him

612
00:35:18,841 --> 00:35:21,241
Speaker 1: at the time, where were they these days? There are records.

613
00:35:21,281 --> 00:35:22,721
Speaker 1: I know they're on paper and that it'll take a

614
00:35:22,721 --> 00:35:25,001
Speaker 1: while to find, but there are records of of he

615
00:35:25,041 --> 00:35:27,881
Speaker 1: was with in the Boy's Home. If he's told mister Leckey,

616
00:35:28,361 --> 00:35:30,081
Speaker 1: I'd back it, and he's told other people as well,

617
00:35:30,761 --> 00:35:33,361
Speaker 1: his behavior was erratic because he was a disturbed young

618
00:35:33,401 --> 00:35:38,881
Speaker 1: man who's potentially abducted, strangled and killed a three year

619
00:35:38,921 --> 00:35:41,001
Speaker 1: old girl. So I mean, I'm going to make an

620
00:35:41,041 --> 00:35:44,401
Speaker 1: offer to your witness today, because I think there's no

621
00:35:44,481 --> 00:35:47,281
Speaker 1: way to push this forward except through the court of

622
00:35:47,281 --> 00:35:51,681
Speaker 1: public opinion. And if his credibility is questioned, let's put

623
00:35:51,721 --> 00:35:55,281
Speaker 1: him on a polygraph. Steve Van Apron, my friend and

624
00:35:55,321 --> 00:35:58,561
Speaker 1: colleague from our Channel seven other show, would more than

625
00:35:58,721 --> 00:36:02,841
Speaker 1: willingly put him on the polygraph and test his credibility

626
00:36:03,401 --> 00:36:09,041
Speaker 1: and let the public decide whether this should or should

627
00:36:09,041 --> 00:36:12,281
Speaker 1: not be tested or be spoken to by police. And

628
00:36:12,321 --> 00:36:14,521
Speaker 1: I think this all comes back to and often say

629
00:36:14,561 --> 00:36:16,881
Speaker 1: this when I deal with long term missing persons cases

630
00:36:16,921 --> 00:36:19,401
Speaker 1: and murders as well, is a fresh inquest.

631
00:36:19,801 --> 00:36:23,201
Speaker 2: We've pleaded for a fresh inquest because there is so

632
00:36:23,361 --> 00:36:27,561
Speaker 2: much more information now available. You've got the five informants,

633
00:36:27,561 --> 00:36:32,721
Speaker 2: You've got the three witnesses, You've now got the author

634
00:36:33,081 --> 00:36:36,681
Speaker 2: of the confession. You've got everything now in front of you.

635
00:36:37,201 --> 00:36:40,801
Speaker 2: I mean, we believe a lot of things that he does.

636
00:36:40,841 --> 00:36:43,601
Speaker 2: Like even with mister Leckey, he said to mister Lecky

637
00:36:44,361 --> 00:36:48,241
Speaker 2: when he was an escapee, he was in a juvenile

638
00:36:48,281 --> 00:36:53,481
Speaker 2: detention home, had escaped when he had abducted a murdered cheryl,

639
00:36:54,161 --> 00:36:56,601
Speaker 2: and when he was sort of brought back to the home,

640
00:36:56,681 --> 00:37:00,161
Speaker 2: he actually said to mister Lecky while it was the

641
00:37:00,201 --> 00:37:04,161
Speaker 2: boy's shelter in Sydney. He actually says to mister Lacky,

642
00:37:04,161 --> 00:37:06,241
Speaker 2: he said, I'm going to have to pay for what

643
00:37:06,281 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: I've done when I was on the run, and mister

644
00:37:09,561 --> 00:37:12,321
Speaker 2: lake he said, well what did you do? He said,

645
00:37:12,801 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: I killed a security guard in a blue shirt. Hey,

646
00:37:17,481 --> 00:37:19,921
Speaker 2: you didn't he killed a little three year old in

647
00:37:19,961 --> 00:37:24,161
Speaker 2: a blue swimming costume. I believe he's a great manipulator.

648
00:37:24,841 --> 00:37:28,561
Speaker 2: I believe he likes to play games. I believe he's

649
00:37:28,561 --> 00:37:31,081
Speaker 2: a lot smarter than what police had given him credit for.

650
00:37:31,801 --> 00:37:33,601
Speaker 2: And who knows what hells he's done.

651
00:37:33,881 --> 00:37:36,361
Speaker 1: Well, he's certainly's shown. I think it's on the record

652
00:37:36,401 --> 00:37:39,961
Speaker 1: that he has an ability to manipulate authority. He sets

653
00:37:40,001 --> 00:37:41,681
Speaker 1: out to do this, and I think he even saw

654
00:37:41,681 --> 00:37:44,881
Speaker 1: it during the court process in twenty nineteen and before then,

655
00:37:45,281 --> 00:37:50,161
Speaker 1: that he runs these psychiatrists around in circles.

656
00:37:50,921 --> 00:37:56,321
Speaker 2: Well understand too, he sat in a prison cell for

657
00:37:56,401 --> 00:37:59,881
Speaker 2: two years. On the morning of the hearing of the

658
00:37:59,921 --> 00:38:05,001
Speaker 2: final hearing where Justice him made his decision, the psychiatrist

659
00:38:05,161 --> 00:38:08,841
Speaker 2: working for the DPP, Now this guy sat in John

660
00:38:09,001 --> 00:38:13,121
Speaker 2: for two years, comes late to the case, hasn't read

661
00:38:13,121 --> 00:38:17,521
Speaker 2: the confession, over the two years, hasn't even spoken to

662
00:38:17,601 --> 00:38:22,041
Speaker 2: Mercury once. Sitting in a New South Wales Security maximum

663
00:38:22,081 --> 00:38:28,161
Speaker 2: security jail. There was no effort by the DPP, by

664
00:38:28,401 --> 00:38:31,401
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Authority to look into this guy.

665
00:38:31,441 --> 00:38:34,401
Speaker 2: He just sat there. No one spoke to him. No

666
00:38:34,521 --> 00:38:37,161
Speaker 2: one went in to say, you know, this is what

667
00:38:37,201 --> 00:38:39,801
Speaker 2: you're being charged with, this is what's happened, to tell

668
00:38:39,881 --> 00:38:43,921
Speaker 2: us you view and have a chat to him. No psychologists,

669
00:38:44,681 --> 00:38:48,561
Speaker 2: as I say, the New South Wales authorities. He arrives

670
00:38:48,801 --> 00:38:54,441
Speaker 2: late to the final hearing, not read the confession. Where's

671
00:38:54,481 --> 00:38:59,361
Speaker 2: the seriousness in batting for Cheryl here? No one's helping

672
00:38:59,481 --> 00:39:02,601
Speaker 2: a little defenseless three year old. You've got a guy

673
00:39:02,681 --> 00:39:06,361
Speaker 2: locked up and you say you have got no opportunity

674
00:39:06,401 --> 00:39:07,841
Speaker 2: to go and have a chat to him. Well, I

675
00:39:07,841 --> 00:39:10,521
Speaker 2: can tell you where he was in silver Water if

676
00:39:10,561 --> 00:39:13,361
Speaker 2: you look up the address and the Yellow Pages come

677
00:39:13,401 --> 00:39:15,001
Speaker 2: and find him. He's really sitting there.

678
00:39:15,041 --> 00:39:16,641
Speaker 1: When you think of the cost of these proceedings, and

679
00:39:16,641 --> 00:39:19,121
Speaker 1: they're huge when they get these expert witnesses in My

680
00:39:19,201 --> 00:39:21,401
Speaker 1: dad was a psychiatrist and that was part of his

681
00:39:21,801 --> 00:39:23,801
Speaker 1: business was to do just these sort of cases. He

682
00:39:23,841 --> 00:39:26,081
Speaker 1: took them very seriously fortunately, But I'm not going to

683
00:39:26,081 --> 00:39:29,321
Speaker 1: cast dispersions on this particular psychiatrist. But I think the

684
00:39:29,361 --> 00:39:31,521
Speaker 1: facts speak for themselves, and I think these sort of

685
00:39:31,601 --> 00:39:34,041
Speaker 1: aspects should be tested in the corridor's court in the

686
00:39:34,041 --> 00:39:37,241
Speaker 1: fresh inquestion. There's certainly illegal path to do that with

687
00:39:37,321 --> 00:39:39,641
Speaker 1: his fresh and compelling evidence, but also to review the

688
00:39:39,801 --> 00:39:43,161
Speaker 1: entire police case, which has never really been done. You've

689
00:39:43,161 --> 00:39:47,401
Speaker 1: got what I'm calling the thermonuclear option. Now. Jeremy Buckingham,

690
00:39:47,761 --> 00:39:50,841
Speaker 1: Member of Parliament New South Wales has offered to use

691
00:39:50,881 --> 00:39:56,121
Speaker 1: parliamentary privilege to name Mercury publicly. It's a big step.

692
00:39:56,761 --> 00:40:00,241
Speaker 2: It's a huge step, and my brothers and I we

693
00:40:00,561 --> 00:40:05,081
Speaker 2: spoke about it over the last week, family members in

694
00:40:05,161 --> 00:40:08,361
Speaker 2: the UK, we've all spoke about it, and we think

695
00:40:08,441 --> 00:40:11,961
Speaker 2: we are at a point we've got no choice but

696
00:40:12,161 --> 00:40:18,841
Speaker 2: to take Jeremy's offer to name Mercury in parliament, to

697
00:40:18,921 --> 00:40:22,881
Speaker 2: read the confession out loud, word for word in parliament

698
00:40:23,681 --> 00:40:25,601
Speaker 2: and put a name to it. Put a name to it.

699
00:40:25,961 --> 00:40:30,481
Speaker 2: Now we've been told he will be hounded by the media,

700
00:40:30,761 --> 00:40:34,841
Speaker 2: by the press, his family, everybody, because now what's happened

701
00:40:34,881 --> 00:40:38,801
Speaker 2: to us over the last seven years since learning about

702
00:40:38,881 --> 00:40:42,121
Speaker 2: this confession is now going to be on him, and

703
00:40:42,161 --> 00:40:45,121
Speaker 2: the spotlight will be well and truly on him and

704
00:40:45,161 --> 00:40:50,841
Speaker 2: his family. I would urge him now to contact his lawyers,

705
00:40:51,641 --> 00:40:57,481
Speaker 2: set up a meeting with our family, police, his lawyers

706
00:40:57,521 --> 00:41:01,841
Speaker 2: at a location of his choosing, and tell us if

707
00:41:01,881 --> 00:41:06,281
Speaker 2: the confession is false, why you made it, and how

708
00:41:06,321 --> 00:41:11,121
Speaker 2: you knew what you confess to what you saw, and

709
00:41:11,721 --> 00:41:15,121
Speaker 2: we want to know why and how you knew this information,

710
00:41:16,161 --> 00:41:20,801
Speaker 2: if it was just you being a teenager and seeking attention,

711
00:41:20,961 --> 00:41:23,801
Speaker 2: tell us. But at the moment, you just keep hiding

712
00:41:23,841 --> 00:41:28,881
Speaker 2: behind this retrospective law, staying quiet. We've had homicide detectives

713
00:41:29,001 --> 00:41:33,801
Speaker 2: tell us they know it's you. You've told us it's you.

714
00:41:34,641 --> 00:41:39,961
Speaker 2: Everybody's telling us it's you. Now it's your time, your spotlight.

715
00:41:40,481 --> 00:41:44,761
Speaker 2: Now you have to explain to the media, to the public.

716
00:41:45,481 --> 00:41:48,601
Speaker 2: The public have so much anger towards you as a

717
00:41:48,641 --> 00:41:52,401
Speaker 2: person at the moment because you've confessed to this and

718
00:41:52,481 --> 00:41:55,201
Speaker 2: you hide behind this law. You don't even have the

719
00:41:55,281 --> 00:41:58,081
Speaker 2: decency if it was a lie, to come and tell us,

720
00:41:58,521 --> 00:42:01,841
Speaker 2: because you're a coward. A three year old little girl

721
00:42:02,121 --> 00:42:07,521
Speaker 2: had more courage than you. Implore you to contact your

722
00:42:07,601 --> 00:42:11,561
Speaker 2: lawyers today because I will push the green light on

723
00:42:11,641 --> 00:42:12,841
Speaker 2: this next week.

724
00:42:14,721 --> 00:42:16,321
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you how long will you

725
00:42:16,361 --> 00:42:18,841
Speaker 1: give him? Because I mean, there's obviously this is a

726
00:42:18,921 --> 00:42:22,161
Speaker 1: dangerous situation, it's volatile. I mean some would say that

727
00:42:22,321 --> 00:42:26,121
Speaker 1: it might jeopardize his right to a fair trial. I

728
00:42:26,161 --> 00:42:29,041
Speaker 1: personally think that's just rubbish. I mean, I've seen this

729
00:42:29,161 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: so many times over the years of my crime journalism career,

730
00:42:31,961 --> 00:42:35,161
Speaker 1: where the defendants barrister says, oh, I know my client

731
00:42:35,281 --> 00:42:37,241
Speaker 1: is now too well known. He certainly can't get a

732
00:42:37,241 --> 00:42:39,161
Speaker 1: fair trial because he's been named in the change of

733
00:42:39,161 --> 00:42:42,241
Speaker 1: the media. But I think the record shows that juries

734
00:42:42,321 --> 00:42:46,681
Speaker 1: take more time and diligence to look at these questions

735
00:42:46,681 --> 00:42:48,641
Speaker 1: and get them right. But also in South Wales, he's

736
00:42:48,681 --> 00:42:51,201
Speaker 1: got the charts for a judge only trial, so it

737
00:42:51,241 --> 00:42:54,201
Speaker 1: becomes a mood point. So how long will you giving me?

738
00:42:54,201 --> 00:42:55,401
Speaker 1: A second? Maybe a couple of weeks.

739
00:42:55,521 --> 00:42:58,921
Speaker 2: I'll give him two weeks to protect his family. Now

740
00:42:59,161 --> 00:43:01,401
Speaker 2: you've got family out there. I know that you've got

741
00:43:01,401 --> 00:43:04,001
Speaker 2: a son, you've got a daughter, you've got an ex wife,

742
00:43:04,001 --> 00:43:06,561
Speaker 2: you've got a current wife, you've got other family members,

743
00:43:06,601 --> 00:43:10,041
Speaker 2: You've got family members in the UK. Here's your chance

744
00:43:10,121 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: to do the right thing, and if it was all

745
00:43:12,521 --> 00:43:15,201
Speaker 2: a pack of lies, come and tell us and we

746
00:43:15,281 --> 00:43:18,841
Speaker 2: can stop, we can stop chasing you. But I'm telling

747
00:43:18,881 --> 00:43:21,801
Speaker 2: you now, it's going to have to be compelling. You're

748
00:43:21,841 --> 00:43:24,201
Speaker 2: going to have to convince us that this was a

749
00:43:24,321 --> 00:43:28,321
Speaker 2: bunch of lies when everybody else and you tell us

750
00:43:28,601 --> 00:43:30,681
Speaker 2: what you said in your confession to be true.

751
00:43:31,281 --> 00:43:33,761
Speaker 1: Tell me, I mean, this has been something that you've

752
00:43:33,801 --> 00:43:36,921
Speaker 1: been living with since January the twelve, nineteen seventy. How

753
00:43:37,041 --> 00:43:37,761
Speaker 1: you going with it all?

754
00:43:38,841 --> 00:43:42,641
Speaker 2: What do you think? I'm a mess? Our family's a mess.

755
00:43:44,041 --> 00:43:49,161
Speaker 2: You know, you get blamed by underknownst to me at

756
00:43:49,161 --> 00:43:52,641
Speaker 2: the time, you're not biological father. And it wasn't until

757
00:43:52,681 --> 00:43:55,201
Speaker 2: many years later that I found out. But who I

758
00:43:55,241 --> 00:43:59,001
Speaker 2: believe was my father wasn't my biological father. It wasn't

759
00:43:59,081 --> 00:44:04,081
Speaker 2: until I was thirtained. So his hatred towards me, and

760
00:44:04,321 --> 00:44:07,521
Speaker 2: after that, after Cheryl was taken, after that day was

761
00:44:08,201 --> 00:44:12,681
Speaker 2: we had a volatile relationship thereafter. And when you sort

762
00:44:12,681 --> 00:44:15,681
Speaker 2: of hear every night when they're arguing, you know, why

763
00:44:15,681 --> 00:44:17,161
Speaker 2: did he leve he? Why did he lever he? And

764
00:44:17,201 --> 00:44:19,921
Speaker 2: he carry that blame then with your all your life.

765
00:44:21,321 --> 00:44:25,001
Speaker 2: And that's why I will not lay down until I

766
00:44:25,081 --> 00:44:28,561
Speaker 2: know the truth about this confession, about this guy Mercury,

767
00:44:29,401 --> 00:44:31,081
Speaker 2: and you're all going to know his name within a

768
00:44:31,121 --> 00:44:35,921
Speaker 2: couple of weeks who he is, and then everybody that's

769
00:44:36,001 --> 00:44:38,321
Speaker 2: known this guy over the years. We've got stories that

770
00:44:38,801 --> 00:44:42,681
Speaker 2: a young lady got into his taxi one night. He

771
00:44:42,761 --> 00:44:45,641
Speaker 2: was a taxi driver as well, got into his taxi.

772
00:44:45,721 --> 00:44:48,601
Speaker 2: She was so scared she made him stop to get out.

773
00:44:49,601 --> 00:44:52,921
Speaker 2: She's one of the informants that come forward and years

774
00:44:53,041 --> 00:44:56,401
Speaker 2: later she runs into him in the same work environment.

775
00:44:57,321 --> 00:45:01,801
Speaker 2: She was terrified. The ex wife is terrified of him.

776
00:45:01,841 --> 00:45:04,841
Speaker 2: What type of guy is this out in the st

777
00:45:05,161 --> 00:45:09,041
Speaker 2: It's running around the streets where his ex wife's terrified.

778
00:45:09,561 --> 00:45:12,601
Speaker 2: People that used to work with him were terrified of him.

779
00:45:13,201 --> 00:45:16,321
Speaker 2: What type of person is this guy? Well, he can't

780
00:45:16,361 --> 00:45:17,481
Speaker 2: hide anymore.

781
00:45:17,441 --> 00:45:19,721
Speaker 1: No, And I think he also know. I know he's

782
00:45:19,761 --> 00:45:23,041
Speaker 1: been questioned in relation to the Frankston tyin On murders

783
00:45:23,721 --> 00:45:26,281
Speaker 1: and with possible links to the I think it's nineteen

784
00:45:26,321 --> 00:45:30,041
Speaker 1: seventy six disappearance of Elouise wallage Ye. This may open

785
00:45:30,081 --> 00:45:32,801
Speaker 1: the door to resolve other cases, or at least give

786
00:45:32,841 --> 00:45:36,121
Speaker 1: him the chance to deny them and be eliminated from

787
00:45:36,161 --> 00:45:36,481
Speaker 1: all this.

788
00:45:37,201 --> 00:45:40,721
Speaker 2: You know, you've got a guy that's confessed to murder

789
00:45:40,761 --> 00:45:45,521
Speaker 2: in one state, he's a person of interest in unsolved

790
00:45:45,721 --> 00:45:49,361
Speaker 2: homicides in another state. What type of person is this?

791
00:45:49,561 --> 00:45:53,641
Speaker 2: I mean what drew police in Victoria to him in

792
00:45:53,681 --> 00:45:57,841
Speaker 2: relation to hunsold homicides in Frankston. They did not know

793
00:45:57,961 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: at the time when they interviewed him, but he had

794
00:46:00,481 --> 00:46:03,881
Speaker 2: confessed already to a child murder in New South Wales.

795
00:46:04,401 --> 00:46:07,041
Speaker 2: So why don't New South Wales and Victoria police get

796
00:46:07,081 --> 00:46:10,801
Speaker 2: together start talking build a picture of profile on this guy.

797
00:46:11,921 --> 00:46:14,361
Speaker 2: I believe he's done more things. You don't stop. I mean,

798
00:46:14,641 --> 00:46:17,761
Speaker 2: he's gone in confessed and police let him walk out.

799
00:46:18,201 --> 00:46:21,001
Speaker 2: I thinks, well that's pretty easy. Might be able to

800
00:46:21,001 --> 00:46:23,721
Speaker 2: do this again. How much more has he done? And

801
00:46:23,761 --> 00:46:27,561
Speaker 2: he's still walking the streets in Victoria here, it's going

802
00:46:27,641 --> 00:46:29,841
Speaker 2: to be some pretty angry people when they find out

803
00:46:29,841 --> 00:46:30,521
Speaker 2: where he lives.

804
00:46:31,361 --> 00:46:34,761
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the next several X will be a watershed

805
00:46:34,761 --> 00:46:37,281
Speaker 1: in this case. And I wish you all the very

806
00:46:37,321 --> 00:46:41,841
Speaker 1: best of luck and that we move this forward. And

807
00:46:41,961 --> 00:46:44,361
Speaker 1: you've got to stop blaming yourself, Ricky. You've got you've

808
00:46:44,361 --> 00:46:46,721
Speaker 1: done everything you possibly could for your sister. You know,

809
00:46:46,801 --> 00:46:51,561
Speaker 1: I've dealt with a number of people like you have

810
00:46:51,841 --> 00:46:54,881
Speaker 1: lost banding members and it is very hard. But I

811
00:46:54,921 --> 00:46:57,921
Speaker 1: think all of Australia is behind you, all the right

812
00:46:58,001 --> 00:47:01,401
Speaker 1: thinking people, and they know the blinked approach the police

813
00:47:01,441 --> 00:47:04,401
Speaker 1: had and the courts all the way through to this.

814
00:47:05,041 --> 00:47:06,721
Speaker 1: We just want this whole thing to be resolved. So

815
00:47:06,761 --> 00:47:08,681
Speaker 1: I really do wish you all the very best with it, mate,

816
00:47:08,721 --> 00:47:10,401
Speaker 1: and I will look forward to getting you back on

817
00:47:10,761 --> 00:47:13,161
Speaker 1: Rukiman Adam Sham when we could talk about this Blake's name.

818
00:47:13,321 --> 00:47:16,921
Speaker 2: All we want is the honest answers. That's what we want.

819
00:47:45,721 --> 00:47:49,601
Speaker 1: That's Ricky Nash, brother of Cheryl Grimmer, disappeared in January

820
00:47:49,801 --> 00:47:53,681
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy. This case again highlights something that's a bit

821
00:47:53,881 --> 00:47:57,561
Speaker 1: unpalatable about a justice system. The victim and their family

822
00:47:57,721 --> 00:48:01,801
Speaker 1: is not represented in the court. They think the prosecutor

823
00:48:01,881 --> 00:48:04,921
Speaker 1: is there for them. They're not. They're there for the Crown,

824
00:48:05,681 --> 00:48:09,361
Speaker 1: the accused as a barrister and they talk through the

825
00:48:09,361 --> 00:48:13,601
Speaker 1: court proceedings. He's solely there. There's nobody in the court

826
00:48:14,001 --> 00:48:17,561
Speaker 1: for the victim. Is this right? And I can understand

827
00:48:17,681 --> 00:48:20,641
Speaker 1: Ricky's frustration and the family. I mean, Ricky wasn't even

828
00:48:20,761 --> 00:48:23,681
Speaker 1: even interviewed for decades after he was there on the

829
00:48:23,721 --> 00:48:27,281
Speaker 1: beach that day. At the very least, a fresh inquest

830
00:48:27,921 --> 00:48:32,241
Speaker 1: must be held into this case to highlight the failures

831
00:48:32,281 --> 00:48:36,201
Speaker 1: of police, not just in nineteen seventy, but in twenty nineteen.

832
00:48:36,601 --> 00:48:39,561
Speaker 1: A million dollar reward, well haha, who's going to pick

833
00:48:39,641 --> 00:48:41,761
Speaker 1: up that million dollar award? I see there's dozens of

834
00:48:42,521 --> 00:48:45,121
Speaker 1: million dollar rewards and nothing ever happens. It's got to

835
00:48:45,161 --> 00:48:47,361
Speaker 1: be human will here. We saw it with Frank san

836
00:48:47,401 --> 00:48:50,041
Speaker 1: Vittali and Damian Lion. They had the will to attack

837
00:48:50,081 --> 00:48:54,521
Speaker 1: this case. Ricky just needs a prosecutor a couple more

838
00:48:54,521 --> 00:48:57,961
Speaker 1: coppers to have the same dash as Frank and Damien.

839
00:48:58,641 --> 00:49:01,441
Speaker 1: That's all I can say. Get in touch if you've

840
00:49:01,481 --> 00:49:02,201
Speaker 1: got thoughts about this