1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Christinamiot. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, September twenty four, twenty twenty five. The light 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: is fading on the Alberesy Government's ambitious twenty thirty Renewable 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Energy Target. Labour wants eighty two percent of energy in 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: the grid to come from renewables within the decade, but 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: net zero modeling conducted by teams from the Universities of 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: Melbourne and Queensland and Princeton University in the US suggests 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: we could be waiting until twenty thirty eight to get there. 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: Australia is at a critical juncture in its energy evolution. 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: On Wednesday, some of the most influential voices in the 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: sector will come together at The Australian's Energy Nation Forum. 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: It's a stacked lineup and you can join our subscribers 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: for all the action at the Australian dot com. Dot 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: au does cause autism. It's the question blowing up the 15 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: medical world after US President Donald Trump released official advice 16 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: regarding the use of the common painkiller during pregnancy. Today 17 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: Health editor Natasha Robinson joins us to unpack this complex issue. 18 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: I think we found an answer to autism. How about that. 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: This is part of a wide ranging address given by 20 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: US President Donald Trump at a memorial for conservative activist 21 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk on Sunday Tomorrow. 22 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: We're going to be talking in the Oval Office in 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: the White House about autism. How it happens. I think 24 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: it's going to be one of the most important news 25 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: conferences I'll ever have, and I look so forward to it. 26 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: It was curious given the circumstances, but on Monday, the 27 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: President's message came into sharp relief. 28 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: First, effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying physicians that 29 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: the use of I said, well, let's see how we 30 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: say that. I said a menefin. Acetamnifin said, okay, which 31 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: is basically commonly known as thailand all during pregnancy, can 32 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: be associated with a very increased risk of autism. So 33 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 2: taking thailand all is not good. I'll say it. It's 34 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: not good. 35 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: Flanked by Health Secretary Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy Jr. The President 36 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: urged pregnant women to limit the use of acetaminifin, which 37 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: is known as paracetamol in Australia, unless it's absolutely medically necessary. 38 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: But if you can't tough it out. If you can 39 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: do it, that's what you're gonna have to do. You'll 40 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: take atil and all, but it'll be very sparingly. 41 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 3: There is certainly no causation established here. That's the first 42 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: thing to say. 43 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: Natasha Robinson is the Australian's Health editor. 44 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 3: But I don't think that you can take the fact 45 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: that there is not a definitive link established between the 46 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: use of paracetamol in pregnancy and causation in terms of 47 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 3: autism to completely dismiss what the administration in the USA 48 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 3: has put on the agenda here. It's really important, I think, 49 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: in this circumstance to sift through the heat and light 50 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: that we see with Trump in everything that he says, 51 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 3: and I would really encourage people to go and look 52 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 3: at the policy in relation to this that the US 53 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: Department of Health and Human Services has put out. It's 54 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 3: really interesting to go through that and see just how 55 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: measured it actually is. Everything that I've heard in terms 56 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 3: of response from experts shooting down these claims is actually 57 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: documented in this information that they've put out there, including 58 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 3: the fact that they openly admit that causation is in 59 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 3: fact not established here. 60 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: But I think what the whole. 61 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: Point of this announcement is. There are association studies, and 62 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 3: there are many of them, and they have consistently shown 63 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 3: a higher rate of autism, sometimes only a small difference, 64 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: but nevertheless that is consistent across many studies in terms 65 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 3: of the slightly high rates of autism among women who 66 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 3: have taken parasitamol during pregnancy, and that particularly late pregnancy 67 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 3: seems to be the issue here. There are other studies 68 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 3: that have disproven any association. A large Swedish study that 69 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: many of the experts who are responding to this announcement 70 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 3: appointing to, which can trolled for genetics essentially by examining 71 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: siblings as well, and once they examined the siblings and 72 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 3: their circumstances, they found that the association disappeared. But then 73 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: there's yet again other studies that have looked at that 74 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 3: Swedish study, and there's in particular a Harvard study that 75 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 3: had some concerns with the way that that study was conducted. 76 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: So look, it is safe to say here the evidence 77 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 3: is mixed. 78 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: Let's do a quick fact check here. 79 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: And by the way, I think I could say that 80 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 2: there are certain groups of people that don't take vaccines 81 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 2: and don't take any pills that have no autism. 82 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: Donald Trump didn't actually seem too confident on this point. 83 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: Is that a correct statement? By the way, there are 84 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: some studies that suggests that with the Amish, for example, 85 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: the Amish, Yeah, virtually I heard none. She Bobbie wants 86 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: to be very careful with what he says, and he should. 87 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: But I'm not so careful with what I say. But 88 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 2: you have certain groups, the Amish as an example, they 89 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: have essentially no autism. 90 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 3: I've had a little opportunity to have a bit of 91 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: a look at these studies. First of all, the idea 92 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: that there's no autism in the Amish communities is false. 93 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: I think it's true as far as I can see, 94 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 3: that there is a lower rate of autism in Amish communities, 95 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: and some of the material studies that I've looked at 96 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: have indicated that it may be as much as four 97 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 3: times lower. But it's unclear why that is. There does 98 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: seem to have been an issue with the particular study 99 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: around about twenty years ago in the US where there 100 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 3: was some suggestions that because Amish families don't generally vaccinate 101 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 3: their children, that was the reason they didn't have any autism, 102 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 3: and I think that's been comprehensively debunked. 103 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 2: And you shouldn't give the child to taileril. Every time 104 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: he goes he's born, he goes and has a shot, 105 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: you shouldn't give a tailer and oil to that child. 106 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: So, in relationship to children, there is no evidence whatsoever 107 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 3: that there's any problem giving parasita mult your children. What 108 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 3: the TGA recommends is that you follow the dosage instructions 109 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 3: and you only give it as needed. So the general 110 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: advice is to give it in the smallest possible dosage 111 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: for the time that it is really required. Take the 112 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: advice of your doctor. I know that doctors do often 113 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 3: recommend it when people vaccinate their children. It's certainly not 114 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: a clear cut issue, and it's absolutely one that requires 115 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: the advice of a doctor, not President Trump. 116 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: It can be something that's very dangerous to the woman's health, 117 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: in other words, a fever that's very very dangerous, and 118 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: ideally a doctor's decision because I think you shouldn't take it, 119 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 2: and you shouldn't take it during the entire pregnancy. They 120 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: may tell you that toward the end of the pregnancy 121 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: you shouldn't take it. 122 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: So Natasha, what the Therapeutic Goods Administration, which is the 123 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: health regulator here in Australia, what does it actually recommend 124 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: for pregnant women where paracetamol is concerned. 125 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: The TTA in Australia classifies paracetamol as a Category A 126 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: drug in pregnancy, which means that it generally considers it safe. 127 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 3: It does say that it should only be taken where necessary, 128 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: and it should be taken at the lowest possible dose 129 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: for the shortest possible time. And I think the important 130 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: thing in relation to paracetamol that is the biggest consideration 131 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: here is that people don't always use it just for paying. 132 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: People often use it to control fever. And that's actually 133 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 3: very important in pregnancy because fever uncontrolled can be dangerous 134 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 3: for the fetus and can trigger premature births. So it 135 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: is an important factor and that's also acknowledged by the 136 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: US Health Department. And that's what many experts are saying 137 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: to pregnant women in the wake of this is if 138 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 3: you have a don't let it run. It's better to 139 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: take paracetamol than to actually have a high fever that 140 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 3: goes on and. 141 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: On coming up dangerous ideas make a Trump era comeback. 142 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: The idea that autism is caused by certain medications and 143 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: vaccinations can be traced back to a paper published in 144 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: the respected Lancet Medical Journal in the nineteen nineties by 145 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: British gastro intestinal doctor Andrew Wakefield. It said of a 146 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: group of twelve eight children who'd received the combined measles 147 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: Mump's rubella vaccine went on to develop autism. It was 148 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: a global bombshell, but it was also wrong. It's since 149 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: been determined Wakefield's methodology was flawed and his paper was 150 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: retracted by the Lancet, but the ideas had taken hold, 151 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: and they've undermined faith in vaccines ever since. Vaccines have 152 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: saved millions of lives from diseases that used to kill 153 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: people of all ages, from babies to adults. Now, anti 154 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: vaccine rhetoric has had a resurgence under the Trump administration, 155 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: thanks to skepticism of high ranking officials like RFK Junior 156 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: and even the President himself, who famously took the anti 157 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: malaria drug hydroxychloroquin during the COVID nineteen pandemic against medical advice. 158 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: And they've pumped so much stuff into those beautiful little babies. 159 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 2: It's a disgrace. 160 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: So I'd just say something about these comments by Trump 161 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: in the first instance, do not take your medical advice 162 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: from the US president. Okay, a responsible president should be 163 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: telling people to discuss these issues with their doctor. That 164 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 3: is the first thing that I'd say in relation to 165 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: his general message. I think what is clear and agreed 166 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 3: by everybody is that this is an incredibly complex condition 167 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 3: that probably has a lot of complex drivers. We've studied 168 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: the genetics. We know that there's a lot of genes 169 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 3: involved with traits that are apparent in conditions of neurodiversity, 170 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 3: including autism. The incredibly important other aspect here is the 171 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: environmental factors, of which pharmaceuticals are one. It's incredibly complex 172 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: to pin down those exact mechanisms, but what people believe 173 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 3: is going on, and the foremost researchers in the world 174 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 3: all agree in terms of autism, it is driven by 175 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: genetics and in combination with environmental factors which have an 176 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: impact upon a person's genetics. I think the comment that 177 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: made about we think we've essentially figured autism out, we're 178 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: going to fix it, is really unhelpful because implicit in 179 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 3: that comment is that this is a pathology that requires 180 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: a medical fix, and with a condition like autism, of 181 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 3: course it's not helpful to speak about a condition which 182 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 3: involves diversity in the way that people affected by neurodevelopmental 183 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 3: conditions actually communicate, experience the world, et cetera, et cetera, 184 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 3: and so essentially casting it as a problem that needs 185 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: to be fixed, and we've found the answer is very 186 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: unhelpful and stigmatizing for people with autism. 187 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: Natasha Robinson is The Australian's Health editor. You can read 188 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: all her reporting and analysis right now at the Australian 189 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 1: dot com dot au