WEBVTT - Peter Dutton's Palestinian ban is textbook Peter Dutton

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<v Speaker 1>From Sports Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>The treatment or mistreatment of refugees fleeing to Australia has

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<v Speaker 1>been the wellspring of Australian politics for almost quarter of

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<v Speaker 1>a century. This time it's Peter Dutton with his call

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<v Speaker 1>for Palestinian's flying gaza to be banned from coming to Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>Language designed to make the government look soft when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to national security. It comes at a time when

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<v Speaker 1>Asio has called for politicians to dial down the heated,

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<v Speaker 1>a divisive rhetoric consuming national conversations with fear it could

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<v Speaker 1>spark violence within the community. Today, former Deputy Secretary of

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<v Speaker 1>the Department of Immigration Abol Risve on the new law

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<v Speaker 1>we've reached and why Peter Dutton's ban makes no sense

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<v Speaker 1>is Tuesday August twenty a. Well, thanks for joining us.

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<v Speaker 1>You are a senior official at Department of Immigration for

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<v Speaker 1>decades and responsible for the migration program for ten years.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you describe to me what level of support the

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<v Speaker 1>Australian government has offered Palestinians flying gaza and how that

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<v Speaker 1>compares to people fleeing past conflicts.

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<v Speaker 2>To date, the only thing the government has offered to

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<v Speaker 2>people fleeing gaza is the opportunity to apply for a

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<v Speaker 2>visit a visa. We need to remember absolutely anybody can

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<v Speaker 2>apply for a visita visa, and so those visit divisas

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<v Speaker 2>are the minimal offering that a government can make, or

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<v Speaker 2>indeed it's probably the most minimalist offering we have made

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<v Speaker 2>to people fleeing war and conflict, at least in the

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<v Speaker 2>last thirty years. In the last thirty years, in every

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<v Speaker 2>instance we have offered some form of humanitarian pathway to

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<v Speaker 2>people fleeing war and conflict. So in the late nineteen nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>about nineteen ninety eight, there was the Balkan War and

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<v Speaker 2>there was significant bombing of places in Kosovo, and the

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<v Speaker 2>whole world was saying, this is an appalling situation. Something

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<v Speaker 2>must be done. Australia under Prime Minister John Howard at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, eventually offered seven to eight thousand places for costs.

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<v Speaker 3>Of our refugees to come to Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Those people were taken directly out of refugee camps where

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<v Speaker 2>they had just escaped. In terms of the documentation, many

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<v Speaker 2>of those people would have had some of them would

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<v Speaker 2>have had passports, many would not have had passports. Our

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<v Speaker 2>ability to check or do the normal security checking in

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<v Speaker 2>those circumstances was minimal. Nevertheless, it was recognized by the

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<v Speaker 2>Howard government that these people were facing severe peril and

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<v Speaker 2>they had to be evacuated quickly. What we did was

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<v Speaker 2>we arranged for flight out of that war zone back

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<v Speaker 2>to Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>We didn't offer them visitor visas. We said, we will

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<v Speaker 3>let you.

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<v Speaker 2>Get onto a plane, we will give you these special

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<v Speaker 2>humanitarian visas. We will feed you and house you until

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<v Speaker 2>that war subsides, which is what we did. In other words,

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<v Speaker 2>we offered those people far, far more than anything that

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<v Speaker 2>we have offered people fleeing Gaza today. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>contrast between the views of mister Dutton contrasting with what

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<v Speaker 2>mister Howard did at the time is just quite extraordinary.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, that's not the only time that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>We did similar things when a year later the Indonesian

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<v Speaker 2>Army was invading East Timor and we were trying to

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<v Speaker 2>protect these t Marese. The Coalition government did something similar

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<v Speaker 2>when the Taliban returned to Afghanistan. It shows what Australia

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<v Speaker 2>can do when it puts its mind to it.

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<v Speaker 1>As you say, the government has offered visited visas, and

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<v Speaker 1>there has been a lot of criticism about the level

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<v Speaker 1>of security screening that happens under these visas. So can

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<v Speaker 1>you describe that screening process and how it compares to

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<v Speaker 1>something like a permanent humanitarian visa?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, So, a visita visa is only a visa that

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<v Speaker 2>is going to allow someone to stay in Australia for

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<v Speaker 2>three months. The person will initially be screened in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of what is known as the genuine visit requirement, and

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<v Speaker 2>I suspect the vast majority of people who are being

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<v Speaker 2>refused are being refused because they do not fit the

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<v Speaker 2>requirements of being able to demonstrate that they intend a

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<v Speaker 2>genuine visit. If the person is possibly headed for an approval,

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<v Speaker 2>they will be checked against what is known as the

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<v Speaker 2>Movement Alert list, and if the individual is on the

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<v Speaker 2>Movement Alert list, there will be a discussion with ASIO

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<v Speaker 2>and the person is most likely to then be refused

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<v Speaker 2>on security grounds. If there are other flags that come

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<v Speaker 2>up that suggest there may be a security or a

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<v Speaker 2>character issue, the case would be referred to ASIO, and

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<v Speaker 2>ASIO would undertake their own background checks, including things like

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<v Speaker 2>checking with partners in the Five Eyes, checking with relevant

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<v Speaker 2>other governments where appropriate, checking what kind of things they've

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<v Speaker 2>been saying on social media, and Asia will then make

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<v Speaker 2>a decision. I think it's important to understand here that

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<v Speaker 2>if the person expresses support for some of the objectives

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<v Speaker 2>of HAMAS, Asio Director General has said, that will not

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily lead to a refusal. For example, one objective of

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<v Speaker 2>a HAMAS is an independent Palestinian state. If a person

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<v Speaker 2>expresses support for that objective of a mass clearly that

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<v Speaker 2>would be just about everybody in Palestine, so that won't

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<v Speaker 2>lead to a refusal. However, if the person expresses support

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<v Speaker 2>for hamas's violent objectives of using violence to create a

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinian state, that may well lead to a refusal on

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<v Speaker 2>security grounds.

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<v Speaker 1>The government has collpeted that now in the coalition's own

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<v Speaker 1>use of these visitor visas, can you tell me how

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<v Speaker 1>the coalition has used these visas in the past and

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<v Speaker 1>if there's any difference between how they're being used now.

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<v Speaker 2>I think a good example is the Ukraine crisis, where

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<v Speaker 2>this divisas were used for people initially fleeing Ukraine who

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<v Speaker 2>were getting into places like Poland or Hungary and then

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<v Speaker 2>applying for this divisas to Australia Australia was providing those

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<v Speaker 2>individuals with VI divisas and then also providing them with

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<v Speaker 2>a humanitarian pathway for extended stay in Australia. In that instance,

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<v Speaker 2>there were no concerns raised about security checks. Now, security

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<v Speaker 2>checks would have been taking place for people where red

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<v Speaker 2>flags were raised and they would have gone through a

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<v Speaker 2>very similar process. So in that instance, concerns were not raised.

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<v Speaker 2>In this instance, concerns are being raised, and it's not

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<v Speaker 2>clear what the difference is.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you take a swing out what the difference might be.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I think the politics of this is very

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<v Speaker 2>different to the politics of people coming from Ukraine. The

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<v Speaker 2>Australian government and the opposit position were at one in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the Ukrainian Russian War. I think on the

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<v Speaker 2>issue of Gaza there is a difference between the two

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<v Speaker 2>major political parties and I suspect that is driving the

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<v Speaker 2>difference in approach.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break, what is Peter Dutton's own

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<v Speaker 1>record on immigration abil We've talked about the visa application process,

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<v Speaker 1>both for visitors and for people coming into Australia on

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<v Speaker 1>permanent humanitarian visas. What ex actally is Peter Dutton proposing?

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<v Speaker 1>What has he actually said what's his solution here?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, when he was initially interviewed on this, he used

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<v Speaker 2>the words at all.

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<v Speaker 1>I do want to ask you about the security checks

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<v Speaker 1>on Palestinians coming in from Gaza.

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<v Speaker 3>Your thoughts on that this morning.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I just think every Australian would be shocked to

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<v Speaker 4>think that the government's bringing in people from warzone.

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<v Speaker 2>In other words, they shouldn't be getting visas at all.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think people should be coming in from that

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<v Speaker 4>war zone at all at the moment. It's not proven

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<v Speaker 4>to do so, and I think it puts out national

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<v Speaker 4>security at risk.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Peter Dunney.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem with that position is that what he is

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<v Speaker 2>recommending is unlawful. There is nothing in the current law

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<v Speaker 2>which says people from Palestine should never be eligible for

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<v Speaker 2>a visitor visa. I think it wouldn't be an easy

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<v Speaker 2>law to change. I think there would be serious issues

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<v Speaker 2>that would arise. I suspect we'd be looking at high

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<v Speaker 2>court challenges and that sort of thing. But let's assume

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<v Speaker 2>that's what mister Dunton wanted to do. He'd have to

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<v Speaker 2>go through that legal process. In the meantime. I get

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<v Speaker 2>the impression that after the initial interview, further consideration has

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<v Speaker 2>been given to what should happen.

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<v Speaker 1>David little Browd, welcome to the program.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, thanks for having me. So.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, mister little Proud has said we should be

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<v Speaker 2>looking at biometrics.

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<v Speaker 1>With biometric testing and doing it in third country, and

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Dutton made that very clear that that's a sensible

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<v Speaker 1>way that's worked previously for Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>To Now biometrics are things like fingerprints etc. Taking fingerprints

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<v Speaker 2>from these applicants, well, firstly would be very difficult. But

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<v Speaker 2>let's assume you could take fingerprints. That doesn't actually help

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<v Speaker 2>you in deciding the visa unless you can run the

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<v Speaker 2>fingerprints and match them against a fingerprint database presumably of

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<v Speaker 2>people who are members of Hamas. Unless we've got such

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<v Speaker 2>a database, taking fingerprints doesn't actually help it all. The

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<v Speaker 2>second suggestion has been face to face interviews. Now we

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<v Speaker 2>need to remember ASIO doesn't conduct generally face to face

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<v Speaker 2>interviews with visa applicants. Face to face interviews with visa

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<v Speaker 2>applicants are conducted, if they're conducted at all, by the

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<v Speaker 2>visa processing officer from the Department of Home Affairs. They

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<v Speaker 2>are not looking at security issues. They are looking at

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<v Speaker 2>whether the person meets the criteria of a genuine visit.

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<v Speaker 2>If there are flags regarding character or secure already, then

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<v Speaker 2>that will be referred to ASIA. Face to face interviews

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<v Speaker 2>don't actually help a lot in terms of assessing national

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<v Speaker 2>security risks.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Peter Dutton was Immigration Minister from twenty fourteen to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen. He would know full well how a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of these political machinations you've talked about actually work. So

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<v Speaker 1>how does his rhetoric match up to his record?

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<v Speaker 2>His rhetoric has been quite hardline, that's undoubtedly true, and

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<v Speaker 2>he has He did make changes to the migration intake

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of its size, the permanent migration program and

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<v Speaker 2>after the twenty thousand special allocation for people fleeing ISIS

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<v Speaker 2>that was administered when he was Minister for Immigration. He

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<v Speaker 2>didn't announce that. That was announced by Malcolm Turnbull. He

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<v Speaker 2>had to administer it. He would have gone through the

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<v Speaker 2>checking processes that are currently being used by ASIA, so

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<v Speaker 2>he would understand how those checking processes work and he

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<v Speaker 2>would know that there wasn't a blanket refusal there. But

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<v Speaker 2>twenty thousand people were visaed largely whilst he was Immigration

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<v Speaker 2>Minister at the same time, and I think many Australians

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<v Speaker 2>would not be aware of this. Whilst he was Immigration minister,

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<v Speaker 2>there took place the largest labor trafficking scam in Australia's history,

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<v Speaker 2>abusing the asylum system.

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<v Speaker 1>You want to tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 2>So what happened is that from about twenty fifteen onwards

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<v Speaker 2>until COVID, we had a massive increase in people being

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<v Speaker 2>brought into the country, initially from Malaysia on vis divisas

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<v Speaker 2>and subsequently from China on vis divisas. Those people were

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<v Speaker 2>being assisted by traffickers. Those traffickers were bringing those people in,

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<v Speaker 2>helping them to apply for asylum, which gave them work

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<v Speaker 2>rights for a period, then putting them to work on farms,

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<v Speaker 2>in sex shops, on construin duction sites, and the trafficker

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<v Speaker 2>would take a cut out of those people's wages in

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<v Speaker 2>order to profit from that business. We need to remember

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<v Speaker 2>labor trafficking of that sort is the second biggest criminal

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<v Speaker 2>industry on the planet behind drug trafficking. That took place

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<v Speaker 2>when mister Dutton was Immigration Minister. The bulk of the

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<v Speaker 2>people who were trafficked into the country at that time

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<v Speaker 2>are still here.

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<v Speaker 3>On any objective measure.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Dutton was the biggest failure in terms of border

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<v Speaker 2>protection that we have had in our history.

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<v Speaker 1>Given what we know about Dutton's record and how he's

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<v Speaker 1>spoken about immigration for years, should it really be a

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<v Speaker 1>surprise that we're hearing about this now.

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<v Speaker 3>It does surprise me. It is unprecedented.

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot recall a time in our history where any

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<v Speaker 2>major party political leader said no, we will not accept

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<v Speaker 2>anyone from this war zone. In the past, we have

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<v Speaker 2>debated how we should respond, how quickly we should respond,

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<v Speaker 2>what level of assistance we should provide, what financial assistance

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<v Speaker 2>we should provide, what housing assistance we should provide. We've

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<v Speaker 2>debated all of that, but no one, no major political leader,

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<v Speaker 2>has ever said no, absolutely, not one person should come in.

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<v Speaker 2>What Australia should have done is to create a humanitarian pathway,

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<v Speaker 2>a humanitarian visa pathway for people who are escaping Palestine

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<v Speaker 2>right now now. It could design that visa and set

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<v Speaker 2>the criteria in such a way that you narrowed down

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<v Speaker 2>the people that you helped. For example, you could narrow

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<v Speaker 2>it right down to people who have some sort of.

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<v Speaker 3>Familial link to an Australian citizen.

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<v Speaker 2>You could also narrow it down to people who, for example, are.

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<v Speaker 3>At extreme peril or extreme risk.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, they could be people who have been orphaned

0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.640
<v Speaker 2>but have a family relative in Australia no family at

0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 2>all in Palestine because they've been killed. They're young children,

0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.959
<v Speaker 2>an obvious category for us to be assisting. That is

0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the most sensible way of proceeding. It's the way we've

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.920
<v Speaker 2>proceeded always in the past. We've been successful at doing

0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.480
<v Speaker 2>that in the past. Why we wouldn't be repeating that

0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 2>is really a function of politics, not a function of

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:20.120
<v Speaker 2>good policy.

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Finally, able what does our history of policies towards refugees

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 1>say about us as a nation.

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:33.640
<v Speaker 2>We've run a refugee program since World War II. We

0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 2>were the first country to take Jewish displaced people out

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 2>of World War II, when at a time when every

0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.520
<v Speaker 2>other country in the world said, no, we're not going

0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.400
<v Speaker 2>to take Jews, We're just not going to do it.

0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:54.760
<v Speaker 3>We broke the logjam. It was Australia that, I'm sorry.

0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Ever since then, we have consistently been at the front

0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:05.200
<v Speaker 2>of developing good policy on how to help people fleeing conflicts.

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:10.320
<v Speaker 3>We are good at it. Why we're not doing that now.

0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Is a really sad reflection on where our politics is at.

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 1>What does that say about us?

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 3>We are changing, We are changing as a nation.

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Abel, Thank you for your time. You welcome. Also in

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.960
<v Speaker 1>the news today, the Labor government has agreed to a

0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 1>coalition demand to put the CFMAU into a minimum three

0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 1>year administration. During the administration, the union will be barred

0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:06.240
<v Speaker 1>from making political donations to see if. Meir was thrust

0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.640
<v Speaker 1>into the spotlight in July over allegations of corruption and

0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.600
<v Speaker 1>links to organized crime and Harmas has rejected the latest

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.960
<v Speaker 1>US proposal for a ceasefire and hostage deal with Israel.

0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.880
<v Speaker 1>The group accused the Israeli Prime Minister of setting new

0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:24.040
<v Speaker 1>proposals that ignored their long standing conditions. Earlier, Prime Minister

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Netanyahu told the Israeli Cabinet that he would remain firm.

0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.840
<v Speaker 1>The Hammasfran Health Ministry reports the death told in Gaza

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.240
<v Speaker 1>has surpassed forty thousand. If you enjoyed today's show, we

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.520
<v Speaker 1>would appreciate you sharing it. I'm Daniel James. This is

0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:45.960
<v Speaker 1>seven am. We'll be back tomorrow.