1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,000 Michael Thompson: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,879 Michael Thompson: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more. 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,360 Michael Thompson: I'm Michael Thompson, and good morning, Adam Lang. 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:15,280 Adam Lang: Good morning, Michael. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,040 Michael Thompson: Adam, recently, in the last couple of weeks, has been 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,720 Michael Thompson: a lot of commentary about, of all things meetings, and 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,400 Michael Thompson: it has been driven largely by the bank CEOs too, 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,800 Michael Thompson: in particular the new A and Z CEO Nuno Mattos 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:33,519 Michael Thompson: and the new Westpac Newish Westpac CEO Anthony Miller, and 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,120 Michael Thompson: talking in particular about some efficiency measures that they are 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,960 Michael Thompson: putting in place around meetings and this idea of having 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,839 Michael Thompson: shorter meetings and having an agenda for a meeting and 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,600 Michael Thompson: to try and kind of value people's time. I understand 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,800 Michael Thompson: all of that. I also thought all of that was 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,280 Michael Thompson: common sense and already in place. So my question for 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,480 Michael Thompson: you today, as a workplace expert, as a leadership coach, 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:07,080 Michael Thompson: as a CEO with many years experience, how a veteran, 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:13,640 Michael Thompson: a veteran of many things, how do we have more 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,919 Michael Thompson: efficient meetings? Common sense? 20 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,120 Adam Lang: It is. But that's the challenge for any business is you 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,880 Adam Lang: have to make sense, you have to explain it. What 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,360 Adam Lang: are you actually looking for? What's a smart decision in 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,800 Adam Lang: whatever context you're operating in? And so, of course, you know, 24 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,200 Adam Lang: I think this sort of behaviour, this conduct has to 25 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,160 Adam Lang: be codified into the understanding of every company as to 26 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:38,759 Adam Lang: what they want. 27 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,160 Michael Thompson: So this is good than what these leaders are doing, 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,880 Michael Thompson: oh saying it and making the expectations. 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,280 Adam Lang: Spectically, I agree, Yes, I do agree with that Anthony 30 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,360 Adam Lang: Miller and what he's I think is being referred to 31 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,760 Adam Lang: as his hustle culture, right, I really like that. I 32 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Adam Lang: think there is a nature about business that it is 33 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,760 Adam Lang: a competition, that there is no walk up start to 34 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,160 Adam Lang: customers buying your product or service, and you've got to 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Adam Lang: go out there and earn it. And that means customer service 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,640 Adam Lang: is not a static thing. So meetings should really be reserved 37 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,440 Adam Lang: for not discussion, not updates you can read those right, 38 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,280 Adam Lang: They should be made for decision making. So if you're 39 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,760 Adam Lang: coming into a meeting, if you're going to ask for 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,680 Adam Lang: people's time, and you remember this from when we used 41 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,120 Adam Lang: to work together, Michael, that you know I would in 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,600 Adam Lang: my head have already calculated the cost of the meeting. 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,760 Michael Thompson: How did you do that? By taking everyone's skir average salary. 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,560 Adam Lang: Give an average salary, divide it down to an hour 45 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,640 Adam Lang: an hour cost of business in my case including super 46 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,680 Adam Lang: but you know there's on cost, rent and sign. You 47 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,639 Adam Lang: can do it every way you like. Let's just say 48 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,080 Adam Lang: keep it simple. Take the average wage down to an 49 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,360 Adam Lang: hour and multiply that by the number of the people 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,200 Adam Lang: in the room. So if you have eight people in 51 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,119 Adam Lang: a meeting, that's eight hours worth of person time. Then 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,160 Adam Lang: you've really got to add in another fifty percent half 53 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,919 Adam Lang: an hour at least before an hour meeting, because people 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,519 Adam Lang: got to get their heads into it, a lot of 55 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,880 Adam Lang: people have to do work for it and put other 56 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,720 Adam Lang: things aside. And after the meeting at least now allow 57 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,440 Adam Lang: another half hour because there's work to do from the meeting. 58 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,120 Adam Lang: So one hour meeting times eight people costs far north 59 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,560 Adam Lang: of nothing. It is basically two hours worth of eight 60 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,440 Adam Lang: people's time. And that starts to Okay, Well, then this 61 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,520 Adam Lang: meeting better have a purpose. We better actually do something 62 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,359 Adam Lang: productive with this time. 63 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,560 Michael Thompson: Okay, So if we start there, as the basic principle, 64 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,959 Michael Thompson: there must be a purpose for this meeting. 65 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,960 Michael Thompson: Yes, what next and an outcome? 66 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,040 Adam Lang: So basic rules that I like, everyone gets to speak, 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,520 Adam Lang: everyone listens, and leaders speak last. Right, there's some basic dynamics. OK, 68 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,840 Adam Lang: good news fast, bad news faster. You can't hide stuff 69 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,440 Adam Lang: in these meetings, and you can't make them just celebrate 70 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,240 Adam Lang: only the good. Everything has to go to make decisions. 71 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,120 Adam Lang: Everything else is secondary. Then this is really important too 72 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,760 Adam Lang: for any unified team. There is no meeting outside the meeting. 73 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,160 Adam Lang: If you're in the room, you own the decision. And 74 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,480 Adam Lang: when you are asked by your teammates who decided, the 75 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,840 Adam Lang: only correct answer is I did, and you stand by 76 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,600 Adam Lang: that decision. You also therefore have to stand by the mistakes. 77 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,600 Adam Lang: So I really like those dynamics. We saw Nuno Mattos from 78 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,400 Adam Lang: anzed He asked for presentations to be cut to five 79 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,799 Adam Lang: pages and respect everyone's time. We saw westba's Anthony Miller 80 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,400 Adam Lang: Shorter sharper sessions as part of his broader hustle culture. 81 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,960 Adam Lang: Jeff Bezos at Amazon, this is one that I really loved. 82 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,040 Adam Lang: Six pages A template, A pro former template, Michael, can 83 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,279 Adam Lang: you imagine enjoy it? If you want to bring a 84 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,599 Adam Lang: decision to a meeting, you've got to prepare, describe the 85 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,400 Adam Lang: context to challenge the decision, how it'll make life better, 86 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,640 Adam Lang: and an outcome, and people for the first fifteen minutes 87 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,919 Adam Lang: of that meeting, do nothing but read it. There's no 88 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,320 Adam Lang: pre work. You get in the room and you read it, 89 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,560 Adam Lang: and you make your notes in your questions. The discussion 90 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,039 Adam Lang: has had and then you go to a decision or 91 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,640 Adam Lang: you decide there's not enough information they need to go again. 92 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,880 Adam Lang: So I really like that rigor around how to make 93 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,159 Adam Lang: their meetings effective. And let's just say Jeff Bezos was 94 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,320 Adam Lang: a driver, but look at the size of Amazon. That 95 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,000 Adam Lang: has been one of the most impressive business stories ever. 96 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,919 Michael Thompson: Something clearly works in that case the structure of the meeting. Yes, again, 97 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:17,880 Michael Thompson: start with a purpose. 98 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,080 Adam Lang: Purpose okay, definitely got to have an agenda. Where are 99 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,160 Adam Lang: you going with this thing? And what are the outcomes 100 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,080 Adam Lang: we're after so that everyone is clear and ready. That 101 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,360 Adam Lang: should be circulated beforehand. I really like ninomatos directive from 102 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,359 Adam Lang: at A and Z A gender upfront, outcomes, declared, actions confirmed. 103 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,720 Adam Lang: I've spoken about Jeff Bezos six page memo and Matos 104 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:45,080 Adam Lang: five page presentation restriction, but you know, really it's anything 105 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,000 Adam Lang: that's going to reflect your company culture and direct you 106 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,360 Adam Lang: towards the business process and the outcomes that you need. 107 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,520 Adam Lang: Loosely define the problem analyze it, decide what to do 108 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:56,480 Adam Lang: about it, and act. 109 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,080 Michael Thompson: Okay, what about communication then within the meeting and is 110 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Michael Thompson: this where poor communicators can actually fall down? 111 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,640 Adam Lang: It is, yeah, it is okay. And look it's incumbent on 112 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,799 Adam Lang: the chair of that meeting or the most senior person 113 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,920 Adam Lang: in that room. And this is very human, right, particularly 114 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,120 Adam Lang: when you've got new people into a company, new into 115 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,400 Adam Lang: a role. You in a meeting forum, everybody's got to 116 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,919 Adam Lang: be allowed to speak and speak well, like, have the 117 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,360 Adam Lang: comfort to speak what they need to say, and that 118 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,960 Adam Lang: can be quite intimidating. So really the chair of that 119 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,480 Adam Lang: meeting has an obligation to support that discussion, make sure 120 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,880 Adam Lang: everyone's there on time, get there early, turn off your phone, 121 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,960 Adam Lang: there is no computer open. You are focused in that 122 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,400 Adam Lang: meeting to get an outcome. And so really it has 123 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,880 Adam Lang: to be a respectful environment. You know, you're there for 124 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,479 Adam Lang: the business's sake, to get an outcome. Respect everyone's point 125 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,919 Adam Lang: of view, because frequently the best ideas come from lots 126 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,279 Adam Lang: of different parts of the business, from the front lines 127 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Adam Lang: and back And as Brene Brown, the Leadership and Vulnerability 128 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:04,080 Adam Lang: Experts says, clear is so just communicating that manner It 129 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,840 Adam Lang: is not for performance theater. As much as we celebrate 130 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,360 Adam Lang: melodrama in the theater itself and in the weekend edition 131 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,840 Adam Lang: here at Fear and Greed, Michael, meetings shouldn't Really be a 132 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,600 Adam Lang: place for that. They can be very distracting.Beware of humor 133 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,760 Adam Lang: because that can take you off track and it also 134 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,480 Adam Lang: can mask really clear communication. And again, once you've made 135 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,440 Adam Lang: that decision, make sure that everyone is supportive. If there's 136 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,080 Adam Lang: any niggling doubt in that room, that's the time to 137 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,280 Adam Lang: get it out because after that meeting, you're going you're 138 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,640 Adam Lang: all in a line to make that decision happen. 139 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,240 Michael Thompson: Okay, so we've discussed what to do before the meeting, 140 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,320 Michael Thompson: During the meeting, what about afterwards? How do you get 141 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,280 Michael Thompson: how do you actually get the best outcomes out of 142 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:46,800 Michael Thompson: that meeting? 143 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,600 Adam Lang: A single owner is always really important. I think that 144 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,880 Adam Lang: one person owns the outcome and that is made clear 145 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,560 Adam Lang: the at least. The meeting's end. You know that they know. That 146 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,360 Adam Lang: they've now got the permission to go ahead on the 147 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:00,840 Adam Lang: company's bar and do something. 148 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:01,920 Michael Thompson: They own it. 149 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Adam Lang: And when they're reporting back, you know, there's some instances 150 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,080 Adam Lang: where every twenty four hours is a good reporting cycle. 151 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,760 Adam Lang: By way of example, if you're dealing with a crisis, 152 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,880 Adam Lang: a safety incident that certain people may need to know, 153 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,600 Adam Lang: you know, in a briefing a meeting what is happening 154 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Adam Lang: and what to do and how they can help. But 155 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Adam Lang: there needs to be a frequency of reporting decided on 156 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,480 Adam Lang: as well. I think those clear action items and a 157 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,800 Adam Lang: single owner are really really helpful. 158 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,920 Michael Thompson: Well, I think you have just delivered us an eight 159 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,360 Michael Thompson: minute masterclass in meeting etiquette and protocols. That a good meeting, Michael, 160 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,319 Michael Thompson: That actually was the most efficient meeting I think we've 161 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,800 Michael Thompson: ever had, Adam right there. 162 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,480 Adam Lang: Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. 163 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:43,880 Michael Thompson: If you've got something that you would like to know 164 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,920 Michael Thompson: and we can deal with these things very efficiently, then 165 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,319 Michael Thompson: send through your question on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, or head 166 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,360 Michael Thompson: along to our website Fearangreed dot com dot au. I'm 167 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,560 Michael Thompson: Michael Thompson and this is Fear and Greed Q and 168 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:00,240 Michael Thompson: a just