WEBVTT - Stabbed, shot and beheaded: Matt and Niall Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.840 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.200 Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today we're 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.239 going to talk to two forms of policemen who are 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.240 victims of a terrorist attack that nearly claimed their lives 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.560 and resulted in the terrorists being shot and killed. These 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.760 two officers have not spoken publicly in detail about this 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.000 incident for a variety of reasons, but today they've agreed 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.880 to come on Eye Catch Killers and share their story. 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.800 The attack occurred ten years ago. Both officers were working 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.240 as counter terrorist detectives when they are attacked and stabbed 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.520 by an eighteen year old Newman hater who they were 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.000 speaking with about concerns he has been radicalized by the 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.800 Islamic State. As you could imagine, an incident like that 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.560 has a profound impact on those involved. What people sometimes 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.959 don't realize is behind the tough exterior, police are just human. 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.759 They feel pain and have emotions like everyone else. Taking 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.200 someone's life, even someone who is trying to kill you, 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.880 comes at the cost. Today we're in the Melbourne studio 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.600 talking to an Australian federal police officer, Matt and a 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.080 former Victorian police officer called Nile. We're going to find 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.680 out who they are, talk about the incident in detail, 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.040 how it changed their lives, and a lot of other 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.960 things about policing and terrorism. And now upfront, I'd like 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.160 to thank Nile and Matter for coming on I Catch 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:03.640 Killers and sharing their story because it can't be easy 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.760 talking about what they went through. Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.079 I've got two guests in the studio today, so firstly, 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:12.760 let me welcome Mart Matt. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:14.920 Hey, Gary, thanks for having us. 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:20.119 Matt, you're a Australian Federal Police officer. Yes, and we've 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.280 also got them. We can't forget Nile here. Nile you're 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.240 a former Victorian Police officer. Yeah, that's rightery Well, i'd 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.400 just like to thank both of you for coming into 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.440 the studio. In the introduction, I talked about an incident 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.720 that brought you guys very close together. It was a 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.160 terrorist attack in which you were both injured and also 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.400 resolved in the person who injured You've been shot, shot 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.600 and killed. Pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we're going to 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.440 discuss that in detail. But how come? And I just 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.520 wanted to put this out because the public listening, well, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.920 why have we got an AFP dude here and a 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.920 Victorian cop? Why were you working together? How did that 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:57.440 come about? 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.200 So the Joint counter Terrorism Team prize as the local 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.520 police force, so in this case Victoria Police, the Australian 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:08.600 Federal Police and then also the security security agencies and 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.000 the Joint counter Terrorism Team operates in all our states 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:16.360 and territories across Australia. So this was Victoria Police detectives 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:20.480 combined with federal agents and the intelligence services. That's how 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.880 we came to be working together in twenty fourteen. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:25.440 Are you're happy to be working with him? 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:25.960 Yeah? 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.639 Well, funny you should say that I started the JCTT 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:35.280 on the first of September in twenty fourteen, and I'd 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.440 been there a day or two and Nile came up 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.920 to me, and as we know, Victorians are very parochial 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.360 around the AFL, and he asked me what my footy 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.800 team was and I looked at him and said Paramatta 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:55.400 and he looked at me in disgust and walked off, 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:59.000 and yeah, and saying that heels had me again overly. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.200 Flash last year to be bragging about. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:05.080 It, but stand by them. But he yes. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:10.000 So that was our introduction, and then I think I 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.000 was there a couple more weeks and then we got thrust. 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:13.920 The incident together. 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.320 It's funny and it's not unique to policing, but I 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.960 think it's something that we all understand. How you look 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.760 when you're at tasked with a new investigation or a 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.320 new team or a new role. You look closely at 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:28.880 the person you're going to be working with because you 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.120 know you're going to get to know that person very well. 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:32.640 You're going to spend a lot of time, and you're 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:34.560 even going to like them or hate them more, it's 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.360 something in between. First impressions. 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.080 Well, with this one it was completely different. Gary Bias, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.360 myself and Matt Ryan different teams, So that night it 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:48.560 was a combination of different members from different teams, all 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.800 of who I was aware of, but we hadn't worked 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.599 closely together, so not knowing Matt's capabilities or the other 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.200 AFP members that were present, that sort of made it 0:04:58.240 --> 0:04:59.920 a little bit more difficult to operate. 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.479 It was you're bought in another aspect there, because there's 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.279 an assumption that we all come with this knowledge and 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.520 skill set working with police, but until you see it, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.880 really the pressure on you don't know if they're going 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:13.839 to come to the four. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.240 Yeah, you're right, probably one of the real benefits. I 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.200 didn't know Matt's background, but because he was a Victoria 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.760 Police member prior to joining the AFP, there was a 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:28.839 specific element of our training that Matt remembered and actually 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.200 said while we were out there on the night that 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.680 I say saved our lives and that is due to 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.359 the interoperability of our skills and both of our trainings. 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.680 Okay, let's talk about the incident, and we'd talk briefly 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:42.480 because I want to find out a little bit more 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.679 about you guys before we go in the full detail. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.120 But it was on the twenty third of September twenty 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:51.120 fourteen outside in dever Hill's police station in Melbourne. You 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.000 were both stabbed and the offender was shot and killed. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:55.600 Matt. 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.279 Firstly, you're stabbed in the eye. You're stabbed in the chest. 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:02.960 My understanding of it is a stab wound in the 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.760 chest was sending meter from your heart. They're potentially life threatening. 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.360 Taught me through what happened at the time. 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:15.160 Yes, so yeah, or during the attack, and I don't 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.680 know what order it happened in. And you know, you 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.159 sort of your body shuts down and does weird things 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.600 during a critical incident. And you know, I went as 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.720 soon as I saw the knife, I went. I had 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.279 auditory exclusion, so I lost all my hearing. And then 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.960 he sort of attacked me, and you know, I'm sort 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.480 of fighting, fighting with him, trying to get my gun out. 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:40.160 You know, I couldn't. 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.360 I couldn't. I lost fine motor skills, so I was 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.400 struggling with my whole stir and everything else. So when 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.080 I say, like, I don't remember the order of the attacks, 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.120 of their stabbing, I can't sort of assume, but yeah, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.800 I had a couple sort of over my left one 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:58.640 dawn over my left eye and down the left side 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:02.080 of my face, and then too in my left shoulder 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.760 and that severed a few tendons and muscles in there. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.520 And then the one in my chest that went into 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.520 my liver, and that was the life threatening one way. 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.080 I had to have a few units of blood put 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.200 in in the hospital and all that sort of stuff. 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.360 But yeah, they showed me the photos after the surgery 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.240 and you could see the hole in the liver and 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:28.880 then just to the right I guess of the photo. Yeah, 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.880 it was my heart, so it wasn't too far off. 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:36.760 Well, we'll talk in detail about it. But you were 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.440 lucky in a way in one Sanda Mator And you've 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.440 probably we've all been the police and you've seen it. 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.560 Sometimes it's just one stab wound that can take someone's life. 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:52.280 Now you were there Nile obviously, and you were stabbed 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:52.680 as well. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:53.960 Yeah, that's right. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.240 So I was stabbed first as I've gone to search Newman. 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:02.360 The first stab wound entered the my left forearm, which 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.200 severed through the older nerve. Now the owner nerve controls 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.280 your motor skills in the hand and the muscles, so 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.520 it essentially rendered my left hand inoperable, so I couldn't 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.520 use any of the fingers. And then the second knife 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.760 wound was a defensive one where I was trying to 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.760 throw my arm onto the blade which slashed me across 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.000 the wrist with fish superficial cuts. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:31.160 Okay, and again a traumatic incident and the best of things. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.880 But another layer that do you fed the fatal shot? 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:36.160 Yeah, that's right. 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:42.600 And I've been involved in numerous police shootings and investigations 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:47.040 into police shootings, and I've never seen anyone come away 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.880 from it that hasn't been impacted. I'm not taking taking 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:50.720 someone's life. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.360 Yeah, you're right, Gary, And look, I always acknowledge action 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.640 normally beats reaction. Myself and Matt were very lucky to 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.680 escae that incident with our lives. That's how I firmly 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:08.520 believe that. But the impact, Yeah, there's the personal, there's 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:14.120 the professional and the family impacts. For example, I had 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:18.600 surgery with my left hand to reattach the nerves and 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.560 get the strength back. And my daughter was very young 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:24.480 at the time of the shooting. She was about twenty 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.920 two months old, and I remember being on sick le 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.400 even trying to put a scrunch in her hair, and 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.880 because I lost all the fine motor skills, I just 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.679 couldn't do that. And for me, that's the family impact 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.640 that really concerns me. My wife and daughter didn't sign 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.520 up for policing. It was me and I accept the 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.240 risks of when we go to work every day and 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.120 wearing firearms, there is a reality we might use them, 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.360 whereas the family have no control over this whatsoever. So 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.640 to see my family impacted due to things I couldn't 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:05.120 do at home anymore, that really causes me emotional turmoil. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.600 A heavy situation that you both found found yourself in. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.199 Well we'll unpack that, but before we do, I want 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.720 to find out a little bit about about you guys. 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:19.560 Who are you? As a young fellow, Matt, I grew. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.000 Up in I was born over seat in pap New Guinea, 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.880 and then moved back and spent a bit of time 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.320 in North Queensland and then moved down to the mid 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.200 north coast of New South Wales. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.320 So that was with all the moving, the around and 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.959 puppy in New Guinea. Was it your parents work or 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:37.880 I know, just. 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.760 You know, Mum went over there to have me. 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.439 She moved over there with her sister and brother in 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.160 law and had a few kids over. 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:47.560 There in Lay. 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.480 So she went up there and spent a bit of 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.800 time there and I was born, and then came back 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:59.480 and and she met my dad or my who like 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:04.160 I call my ad, you know, probably twelve months or 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:08.079 so after she moved back to Australia and then yeah, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.439 spent a bit of time, went back to New Guinea, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.600 spent a bit then back to North Queensland and then 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.959 down to the mid north coast of New South Wales. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.520 Did you always have aspirations to become a cop? 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.040 Poor? Not really. It was more. 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:30.520 I wanted to join the military, So out of school 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.040 I joined. I joined the RAF as a photographer and 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.200 I had a few years there and then got out, 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.439 did a bit of photography around Melbourne, and then thought 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.439 I need a full time job, and Vic Poul were 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.320 recruiting pretty heavily and saying that like I had thought 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.199 about joining the police sort of towards the end of school, 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.000 but it was more just thoughts and talks and nothing 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.800 really sort of all that serious. And then I thought, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.640 you know they got good leave and good super and 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:04.240 so in ninety six, so I joined up to Victoria Police. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.240 Okay, how long did you just stay in Victoria Police 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.880 before you went across the a. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:14.120 P About seventeen years I think, I think, yeah, ninety 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:15.679 six to twenty thirteen. 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.400 All right, what about you you as a young guy. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.400 So I grew up in country northeast Victoria, so up 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:28.200 in ned Kelly Country, came down to Well. I wanted 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.520 to be a policeman from about four years of age. 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.079 He's having a little police station at home. When mum 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:35.760 and dad would get home, I would go out and 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.160 put a ticket on their car and raking some fines. 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:45.000 I'm I'm surprised you haven't ended up in the highway patrol. Yeah, 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.120 nothing wrong with I opener correctly. We patrol absolutely. 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.439 So I came down to Melbourne in nineteen ninety six, 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.160 got into hospitality, but he was at that stage. Matt 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.280 got in when it was a boon recruiting and then 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:04.760 it dried up until early two thousand. So I then 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.760 joined in two thousand two days after my twenty fourth 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:15.199 birthday in January two thousand, So twenty three odd years 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:15.840 in policing. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.320 Okay, you've had a couple of interesting You worked on 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.560 the Pirana Task Force. Yeah, just explain that the people 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:24.360 that might know it. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.400 So, the Parana Task Force was investigating organized crime and 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.040 also the Gangland murders which were prevalent from two thousand 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:36.480 onwards down here, with something like twenty eight deaths or murders, 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.320 should I say at that stage. So I came to 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:44.360 Parana Task Force in January twenty ten, promoted to the 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.760 rank of detective and we were allocated in investigation on 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.439 a Middle East and organized crime character that had significant 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:59.720 influence in Melbourne, Sydney and elsewhere. Usual ill gotten gains 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.840 and elf So the Primo Task Force that was a 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.000 dedicated crew that was then looking at the Phase three 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.800 mop up of people who have survived the Ganglan wars. 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.839 As we all knew about the underbelly. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:18.120 Yeah, exactly right, And that's really where I was working 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.800 with some great detectives Mick Hughes, Detective Inspector Dave Jones, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.760 Steve Cooper, some really good investigators there which gave me 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.280 mycraft within the detective world of investigations. 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:33.440 There would have been a lot of pressure on there 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.560 because it was so high profile, and we were talking 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.200 before we started the podcast about the impact that has 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.160 on family and that you could be home but not 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.640 actually present, And I would imagine the job like that, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:47.560 getting a sense of the pace that investigation was going. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.920 At the nature of the work, that would have been 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.400 one of those times where your focus was very much 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:53.480 on your work. 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.479 Yeah, absolutely, Gary, And as you know, with investigations, it's 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.800 not just focused on a sole area. This many different 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.880 branches off that it goes that you've got to allocate 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.720 resources and time to that, whereas it's not just an 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.520 eight till four Monday to Friday job. You're playing catch 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.600 up football by trying to find out what's been occurring 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.560 on the phones, listening devices and other methodology that's in 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.280 play to try and predict the next move of what 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.720 that organized crime figure would do. But then when you're 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.960 getting home, you are you're president at home, but quite literally, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:30.960 you're still thinking about work and what's got to be 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.400 done the next day, the weeks after and onwards. I 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.280 was very lucky that we always had very strong detective 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:43.400 sergeants and inspectors and superintendents running our investigations that would 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.200 really keep us focused on what the main goal was, 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.680 so when it would try and branch off into different areas, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.760 it would be brought back into That's interesting. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.400 I've seen long investigations. You can start chasing rabbits down 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.560 holes because you uncover so much and your head's in overdrive. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.280 But yeah, a good leader or officer in charge of 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.280 an investigation does keep it the focus. This is your role, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.920 this is the focus of what we terms of reference 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.720 and let's stay stay on track. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:20.040 Absolutely. We had the AFP Detective Superintendent Des Appleby worked 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.880 really well with our vic pohal To Textive Inspector Mick Hughes. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.200 They were siding, they were sidestepping everything that would occur 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:34.240 handing glove responses. It was a really proactive, targeted investigation 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.680 that we were doing and it actually got the relationship 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.520 with Victoria Police and the AFP in Melbourne back on 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.720 track again for the work that we did, because previously 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:50.440 we'd had the Tomato Tin's investigation of the ecstasy tablets 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.520 where Victoria Police had been removed from the building by 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.280 the AFP. So several years later the relationship was back 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:58.360 on track to target all. 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.080 Yeah, there's been that over the years that with a 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.800 pushback from state police and AFP, but hopefully that's across 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.480 the board that's getting better. Yeah, and I think with 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.479 AFP and Matt you can talk to this because you're 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.640 worked in both AFP are getting this. They haven't been 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.600 in terms of police in the round for that long 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:18.800 a time, but they're starting to get the experience. And 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.600 you're getting people who have had their whole career at 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:22.680 the sharp end of policing. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.360 Yeah, and yeah, I think you know, they've they had 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.600 their sort of issues early on, and I remember in 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:30.760 Big Poll, you know, I was walking down to do 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.800 our early on just to forget how the academy. Actually 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.479 I was posted into Melbourne. We were walking down La 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.879 Trope Street. We were walking because we were going to 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.359 use the range at the AFP offices and one of 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.040 the detectives from the Melbourne COB said to me, oh, 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.439 you know, we're going to the AFP and you know 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.840 they're useless and hopeless and that do too much. But 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.480 sort of you know, fast forward, you know, fifteen sort 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:03.840 of twenty years and with that experience and over time 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:09.040 plus working pretty closely with other police forces around Australia, 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.320 and you know, that experience in the AFP, and there's 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:16.119 a few things that they do really really well, and 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.760 that's what they're sort of trying to focus on, you know, 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.640 like the big drug imports, terrorism and all that sort 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:22.000 of stuff. 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:22.240 Yeah. 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.320 So plus they're also actively sort of trying to recruit 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:31.239 police from other police forces, which sort of I mean 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.639 you're sort of buying experience and you're sort of bringing. 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.840 Someone in bringing in that experience. Well, you said the 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.280 seventeen years in vic Pole and then you went across 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:42.119 to the AFP. What was the decision that swung you 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:43.800 to go across. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.879 Yeah, I was I was doing actually I was working 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.800 in intel at the time, and I was doing a 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:54.560 secondment with the AFP out at the airport in a 0:18:54.960 --> 0:19:01.359 joint in the joint intel group out there, and and. 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:02.080 We had some. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.080 Victoria Police detectives that were out there in the in 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:09.520 the investigations team. So it was these joint team and 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:15.000 it was really it was really well resourced, and you know, 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.000 we're looking at basically trusted insiders around the airport and 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.960 just sort of seeing the opportunities that the AFP offered 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.879 was like, you know, this is you know, there's something 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.960 bigger than vic Pole because you know Vic Pole. You know, 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:31.800 while I had I had a fantastic time there and 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.480 worked in all different places, but you know, sort of 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:35.119 state based. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.720 I know what you're saying. And I would often when 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:39.720 I was in New South Wales police look at the 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.200 AFP and think, oh, well, you could get stationed overseas 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.720 or different investigations a bit broader. So I can see 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.680 the temptation there. You've come together. Let's start talking in 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.280 the build up to the incident, what drew you both 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:54.320 to counter terrorism? 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:59.920 So I I was in the Security Intelligence Group at 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.160 Big Pole for a couple of years in intel there, 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:12.159 and i'd started studying my masters in intel. But just 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.080 before I sort of around about that time going to SIEG, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.800 I sort of started seeing you know, the national security 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:25.520 sort of things, sort of got interested in in terrorism, 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.560 and then I switched over and started to do my 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:33.159 masters in terrorism and security, started working at Security Intelligence 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.800 Group and then and which dealt with issue motivated groups 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.520 and terrorism. And so this is when they started sort 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.919 of started working in with the early days of the 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.720 j C T T Joint counter Terrorism Team what Nyla 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:52.000 and I were part of. And yeah, and I guess 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.040 it just kicked off from there and sort of working 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.600 in the area and you know, sort of getting that interest, 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.280 I guess was the main motivation. It took me a 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.120 few years to get over there, but yeah. 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:08.240 Look, I think it's a fascinating area of policing. And 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.080 my thing was homicide. But if I had a choice 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:14.720 of where I'd go outside of homicide, and a regret 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:16.639 that I didn't do counter terrorism because I think it 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.040 gives you a world view of things. You've got to 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.960 look at things deeply, and you've got to be more 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.280 proactive and from a criminal investigation point of view, at homicide, 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.000 we sort of kick in when the shit's happened and 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.320 come and investigate the crime. But with counter terrorism, it's 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:35.639 about predicting the crime and preventing the crime more. Now, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.440 your interest in counter terrorism, how did that come about? 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.800 Yeah, so there was some self interests in there at 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:47.040 that stage. There was some reshuffling at Parana Task Force 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.960 of our crews and we're then given the offer of 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.880 what other task force would you like to go to? Now, 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.800 because the Organized Crime Task Force was operating in the 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:03.400 Federal Police building, I had my security clearances, computer access, 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.840 understood who the different detectives and federal agents were there. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:12.440 Victoria Police traditionally had one crew of detectives in counter 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.679 terrorism and they were due to be rotated out, so 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.000 there was an opportunity to stay within the AFP building 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:23.280 working in counter terrorism. At that stage, I thought to myself, 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.879 from a resume perspective, the self interest of this is 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:31.760 a crime type really unique to common legislation, the opportunities 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.440 that come with it, as Matt spoke about with the AFP, 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:40.800