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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk to two forms of policemen who are

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Speaker 1: victims of a terrorist attack that nearly claimed their lives

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Speaker 1: and resulted in the terrorists being shot and killed. These

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Speaker 1: two officers have not spoken publicly in detail about this

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Speaker 1: incident for a variety of reasons, but today they've agreed

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Speaker 1: to come on Eye Catch Killers and share their story.

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Speaker 1: The attack occurred ten years ago. Both officers were working

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Speaker 1: as counter terrorist detectives when they are attacked and stabbed

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Speaker 1: by an eighteen year old Newman hater who they were

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Speaker 1: speaking with about concerns he has been radicalized by the

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Speaker 1: Islamic State. As you could imagine, an incident like that

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Speaker 1: has a profound impact on those involved. What people sometimes

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Speaker 1: don't realize is behind the tough exterior, police are just human.

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Speaker 1: They feel pain and have emotions like everyone else. Taking

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Speaker 1: someone's life, even someone who is trying to kill you,

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Speaker 1: comes at the cost. Today we're in the Melbourne studio

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Speaker 1: talking to an Australian federal police officer, Matt and a

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Speaker 1: former Victorian police officer called Nile. We're going to find

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Speaker 1: out who they are, talk about the incident in detail,

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Speaker 1: how it changed their lives, and a lot of other

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Speaker 1: things about policing and terrorism. And now upfront, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to thank Nile and Matter for coming on I Catch

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Speaker 1: Killers and sharing their story because it can't be easy

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Speaker 1: talking about what they went through. Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: I've got two guests in the studio today, so firstly,

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Speaker 1: let me welcome Mart Matt.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Gary, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: Matt, you're a Australian Federal Police officer. Yes, and we've

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Speaker 1: also got them. We can't forget Nile here. Nile you're

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Speaker 1: a former Victorian Police officer. Yeah, that's rightery Well, i'd

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Speaker 1: just like to thank both of you for coming into

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Speaker 1: the studio. In the introduction, I talked about an incident

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Speaker 1: that brought you guys very close together. It was a

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Speaker 1: terrorist attack in which you were both injured and also

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Speaker 1: resolved in the person who injured You've been shot, shot

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Speaker 1: and killed. Pretty heavy, heavy topic, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss that in detail. But how come? And I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to put this out because the public listening, well,

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Speaker 1: why have we got an AFP dude here and a

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Speaker 1: Victorian cop? Why were you working together? How did that

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Speaker 1: come about?

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Speaker 3: So the Joint counter Terrorism Team prize as the local

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Speaker 3: police force, so in this case Victoria Police, the Australian

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Speaker 3: Federal Police and then also the security security agencies and

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Speaker 3: the Joint counter Terrorism Team operates in all our states

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Speaker 3: and territories across Australia. So this was Victoria Police detectives

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Speaker 3: combined with federal agents and the intelligence services. That's how

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Speaker 3: we came to be working together in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Are you're happy to be working with him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Well, funny you should say that I started the JCTT

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Speaker 4: on the first of September in twenty fourteen, and I'd

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Speaker 4: been there a day or two and Nile came up

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Speaker 4: to me, and as we know, Victorians are very parochial

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Speaker 4: around the AFL, and he asked me what my footy

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Speaker 4: team was and I looked at him and said Paramatta

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Speaker 4: and he looked at me in disgust and walked off,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, and saying that heels had me again overly.

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Speaker 1: Flash last year to be bragging about.

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Speaker 2: It, but stand by them. But he yes.

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Speaker 4: So that was our introduction, and then I think I

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Speaker 4: was there a couple more weeks and then we got thrust.

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Speaker 2: The incident together.

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Speaker 1: It's funny and it's not unique to policing, but I

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Speaker 1: think it's something that we all understand. How you look

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Speaker 1: when you're at tasked with a new investigation or a

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Speaker 1: new team or a new role. You look closely at

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Speaker 1: the person you're going to be working with because you

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Speaker 1: know you're going to get to know that person very well.

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Speaker 1: You're going to spend a lot of time, and you're

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Speaker 1: even going to like them or hate them more, it's

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Speaker 1: something in between. First impressions.

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Speaker 3: Well, with this one it was completely different. Gary Bias,

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Speaker 3: myself and Matt Ryan different teams, So that night it

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Speaker 3: was a combination of different members from different teams, all

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Speaker 3: of who I was aware of, but we hadn't worked

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Speaker 3: closely together, so not knowing Matt's capabilities or the other

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Speaker 3: AFP members that were present, that sort of made it

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Speaker 3: a little bit more difficult to operate.

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Speaker 1: It was you're bought in another aspect there, because there's

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Speaker 1: an assumption that we all come with this knowledge and

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Speaker 1: skill set working with police, but until you see it,

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Speaker 1: really the pressure on you don't know if they're going

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Speaker 1: to come to the four.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, probably one of the real benefits. I

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Speaker 3: didn't know Matt's background, but because he was a Victoria

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Speaker 3: Police member prior to joining the AFP, there was a

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Speaker 3: specific element of our training that Matt remembered and actually

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Speaker 3: said while we were out there on the night that

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Speaker 3: I say saved our lives and that is due to

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Speaker 3: the interoperability of our skills and both of our trainings.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the incident, and we'd talk briefly

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Speaker 1: because I want to find out a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about you guys before we go in the full detail.

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Speaker 1: But it was on the twenty third of September twenty

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Speaker 1: fourteen outside in dever Hill's police station in Melbourne. You

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Speaker 1: were both stabbed and the offender was shot and killed.

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Speaker 2: Matt.

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Speaker 1: Firstly, you're stabbed in the eye. You're stabbed in the chest.

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Speaker 1: My understanding of it is a stab wound in the

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Speaker 1: chest was sending meter from your heart. They're potentially life threatening.

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Speaker 1: Taught me through what happened at the time.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so yeah, or during the attack, and I don't

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Speaker 4: know what order it happened in. And you know, you

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Speaker 4: sort of your body shuts down and does weird things

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Speaker 4: during a critical incident. And you know, I went as

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Speaker 4: soon as I saw the knife, I went. I had

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Speaker 4: auditory exclusion, so I lost all my hearing. And then

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Speaker 4: he sort of attacked me, and you know, I'm sort

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Speaker 4: of fighting, fighting with him, trying to get my gun out.

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Speaker 2: You know, I couldn't.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't. I lost fine motor skills, so I was

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Speaker 4: struggling with my whole stir and everything else. So when

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Speaker 4: I say, like, I don't remember the order of the attacks,

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Speaker 4: of their stabbing, I can't sort of assume, but yeah,

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Speaker 4: I had a couple sort of over my left one

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Speaker 4: dawn over my left eye and down the left side

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Speaker 4: of my face, and then too in my left shoulder

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Speaker 4: and that severed a few tendons and muscles in there.

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Speaker 4: And then the one in my chest that went into

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Speaker 4: my liver, and that was the life threatening one way.

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Speaker 4: I had to have a few units of blood put

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Speaker 4: in in the hospital and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, they showed me the photos after the surgery

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Speaker 4: and you could see the hole in the liver and

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Speaker 4: then just to the right I guess of the photo. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it was my heart, so it wasn't too far off.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk in detail about it. But you were

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Speaker 1: lucky in a way in one Sanda Mator And you've

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Speaker 1: probably we've all been the police and you've seen it.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just one stab wound that can take someone's life.

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Speaker 1: Now you were there Nile obviously, and you were stabbed

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: So I was stabbed first as I've gone to search Newman.

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Speaker 3: The first stab wound entered the my left forearm, which

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Speaker 3: severed through the older nerve. Now the owner nerve controls

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Speaker 3: your motor skills in the hand and the muscles, so

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Speaker 3: it essentially rendered my left hand inoperable, so I couldn't

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Speaker 3: use any of the fingers. And then the second knife

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Speaker 3: wound was a defensive one where I was trying to

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Speaker 3: throw my arm onto the blade which slashed me across

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Speaker 3: the wrist with fish superficial cuts.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and again a traumatic incident and the best of things.

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Speaker 1: But another layer that do you fed the fatal shot?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And I've been involved in numerous police shootings and investigations

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Speaker 1: into police shootings, and I've never seen anyone come away

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Speaker 1: from it that hasn't been impacted. I'm not taking taking

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Speaker 1: someone's life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right, Gary, And look, I always acknowledge action

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Speaker 3: normally beats reaction. Myself and Matt were very lucky to

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Speaker 3: escae that incident with our lives. That's how I firmly

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Speaker 3: believe that. But the impact, Yeah, there's the personal, there's

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Speaker 3: the professional and the family impacts. For example, I had

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Speaker 3: surgery with my left hand to reattach the nerves and

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Speaker 3: get the strength back. And my daughter was very young

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Speaker 3: at the time of the shooting. She was about twenty

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Speaker 3: two months old, and I remember being on sick le

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Speaker 3: even trying to put a scrunch in her hair, and

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Speaker 3: because I lost all the fine motor skills, I just

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Speaker 3: couldn't do that. And for me, that's the family impact

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Speaker 3: that really concerns me. My wife and daughter didn't sign

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Speaker 3: up for policing. It was me and I accept the

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Speaker 3: risks of when we go to work every day and

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Speaker 3: wearing firearms, there is a reality we might use them,

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Speaker 3: whereas the family have no control over this whatsoever. So

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Speaker 3: to see my family impacted due to things I couldn't

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Speaker 3: do at home anymore, that really causes me emotional turmoil.

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Speaker 1: A heavy situation that you both found found yourself in.

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Speaker 1: Well we'll unpack that, but before we do, I want

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Speaker 1: to find out a little bit about about you guys.

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Speaker 1: Who are you? As a young fellow, Matt, I grew.

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Speaker 4: Up in I was born over seat in pap New Guinea,

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Speaker 4: and then moved back and spent a bit of time

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Speaker 4: in North Queensland and then moved down to the mid

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Speaker 4: north coast of New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: So that was with all the moving, the around and

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Speaker 1: puppy in New Guinea. Was it your parents work or

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Speaker 1: I know, just.

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Speaker 2: You know, Mum went over there to have me.

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Speaker 4: She moved over there with her sister and brother in

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Speaker 4: law and had a few kids over.

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Speaker 2: There in Lay.

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Speaker 4: So she went up there and spent a bit of

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Speaker 4: time there and I was born, and then came back

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Speaker 4: and and she met my dad or my who like

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Speaker 4: I call my ad, you know, probably twelve months or

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Speaker 4: so after she moved back to Australia and then yeah,

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Speaker 4: spent a bit of time, went back to New Guinea,

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Speaker 4: spent a bit then back to North Queensland and then

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Speaker 4: down to the mid north coast of New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: Did you always have aspirations to become a cop?

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Speaker 2: Poor? Not really. It was more.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to join the military, So out of school

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Speaker 4: I joined. I joined the RAF as a photographer and

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Speaker 4: I had a few years there and then got out,

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Speaker 4: did a bit of photography around Melbourne, and then thought

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Speaker 4: I need a full time job, and Vic Poul were

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Speaker 4: recruiting pretty heavily and saying that like I had thought

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Speaker 4: about joining the police sort of towards the end of school,

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Speaker 4: but it was more just thoughts and talks and nothing

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Speaker 4: really sort of all that serious. And then I thought,

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Speaker 4: you know they got good leave and good super and

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Speaker 4: so in ninety six, so I joined up to Victoria Police.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how long did you just stay in Victoria Police

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Speaker 1: before you went across the a.

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Speaker 4: P About seventeen years I think, I think, yeah, ninety

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Speaker 4: six to twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: All right, what about you you as a young guy.

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Speaker 3: So I grew up in country northeast Victoria, so up

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Speaker 3: in ned Kelly Country, came down to Well. I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be a policeman from about four years of age.

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Speaker 3: He's having a little police station at home. When mum

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Speaker 3: and dad would get home, I would go out and

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Speaker 3: put a ticket on their car and raking some fines.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm surprised you haven't ended up in the highway patrol. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with I opener correctly. We patrol absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So I came down to Melbourne in nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 3: got into hospitality, but he was at that stage. Matt

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Speaker 3: got in when it was a boon recruiting and then

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Speaker 3: it dried up until early two thousand. So I then

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Speaker 3: joined in two thousand two days after my twenty fourth

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Speaker 3: birthday in January two thousand, So twenty three odd years

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Speaker 3: in policing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you've had a couple of interesting You worked on

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Speaker 1: the Pirana Task Force. Yeah, just explain that the people

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Speaker 1: that might know it.

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Speaker 3: So, the Parana Task Force was investigating organized crime and

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Speaker 3: also the Gangland murders which were prevalent from two thousand

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Speaker 3: onwards down here, with something like twenty eight deaths or murders,

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Speaker 3: should I say at that stage. So I came to

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Speaker 3: Parana Task Force in January twenty ten, promoted to the

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Speaker 3: rank of detective and we were allocated in investigation on

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Speaker 3: a Middle East and organized crime character that had significant

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Speaker 3: influence in Melbourne, Sydney and elsewhere. Usual ill gotten gains

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Speaker 3: and elf So the Primo Task Force that was a

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Speaker 3: dedicated crew that was then looking at the Phase three

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Speaker 3: mop up of people who have survived the Ganglan wars.

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Speaker 1: As we all knew about the underbelly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, And that's really where I was working

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Speaker 3: with some great detectives Mick Hughes, Detective Inspector Dave Jones,

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Speaker 3: Steve Cooper, some really good investigators there which gave me

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Speaker 3: mycraft within the detective world of investigations.

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Speaker 1: There would have been a lot of pressure on there

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Speaker 1: because it was so high profile, and we were talking

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Speaker 1: before we started the podcast about the impact that has

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Speaker 1: on family and that you could be home but not

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Speaker 1: actually present, And I would imagine the job like that,

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Speaker 1: getting a sense of the pace that investigation was going.

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Speaker 1: At the nature of the work, that would have been

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Speaker 1: one of those times where your focus was very much

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Speaker 1: on your work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Gary, And as you know, with investigations, it's

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Speaker 3: not just focused on a sole area. This many different

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Speaker 3: branches off that it goes that you've got to allocate

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Speaker 3: resources and time to that, whereas it's not just an

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Speaker 3: eight till four Monday to Friday job. You're playing catch

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Speaker 3: up football by trying to find out what's been occurring

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Speaker 3: on the phones, listening devices and other methodology that's in

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Speaker 3: play to try and predict the next move of what

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Speaker 3: that organized crime figure would do. But then when you're

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Speaker 3: getting home, you are you're president at home, but quite literally,

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Speaker 3: you're still thinking about work and what's got to be

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Speaker 3: done the next day, the weeks after and onwards. I

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Speaker 3: was very lucky that we always had very strong detective

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Speaker 3: sergeants and inspectors and superintendents running our investigations that would

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Speaker 3: really keep us focused on what the main goal was,

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Speaker 3: so when it would try and branch off into different areas,

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Speaker 3: it would be brought back into That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I've seen long investigations. You can start chasing rabbits down

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Speaker 1: holes because you uncover so much and your head's in overdrive.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, a good leader or officer in charge of

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Speaker 1: an investigation does keep it the focus. This is your role,

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Speaker 1: this is the focus of what we terms of reference

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Speaker 1: and let's stay stay on track.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. We had the AFP Detective Superintendent Des Appleby worked

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Speaker 3: really well with our vic pohal To Textive Inspector Mick Hughes.

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Speaker 3: They were siding, they were sidestepping everything that would occur

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Speaker 3: handing glove responses. It was a really proactive, targeted investigation

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Speaker 3: that we were doing and it actually got the relationship

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Speaker 3: with Victoria Police and the AFP in Melbourne back on

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Speaker 3: track again for the work that we did, because previously

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Speaker 3: we'd had the Tomato Tin's investigation of the ecstasy tablets

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Speaker 3: where Victoria Police had been removed from the building by

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Speaker 3: the AFP. So several years later the relationship was back

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Speaker 3: on track to target all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been that over the years that with a

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Speaker 1: pushback from state police and AFP, but hopefully that's across

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Speaker 1: the board that's getting better. Yeah, and I think with

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Speaker 1: AFP and Matt you can talk to this because you're

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Speaker 1: worked in both AFP are getting this. They haven't been

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Speaker 1: in terms of police in the round for that long

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Speaker 1: a time, but they're starting to get the experience. And

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Speaker 1: you're getting people who have had their whole career at

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Speaker 1: the sharp end of policing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and yeah, I think you know, they've they had

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Speaker 4: their sort of issues early on, and I remember in

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Speaker 4: Big Poll, you know, I was walking down to do

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Speaker 4: our early on just to forget how the academy. Actually

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Speaker 4: I was posted into Melbourne. We were walking down La

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Speaker 4: Trope Street. We were walking because we were going to

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Speaker 4: use the range at the AFP offices and one of

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Speaker 4: the detectives from the Melbourne COB said to me, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, we're going to the AFP and you know

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Speaker 4: they're useless and hopeless and that do too much. But

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Speaker 4: sort of you know, fast forward, you know, fifteen sort

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Speaker 4: of twenty years and with that experience and over time

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Speaker 4: plus working pretty closely with other police forces around Australia,

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Speaker 4: and you know, that experience in the AFP, and there's

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Speaker 4: a few things that they do really really well, and

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Speaker 4: that's what they're sort of trying to focus on, you know,

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Speaker 4: like the big drug imports, terrorism and all that sort

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Speaker 4: of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So plus they're also actively sort of trying to recruit

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Speaker 4: police from other police forces, which sort of I mean

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Speaker 4: you're sort of buying experience and you're sort of bringing.

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Speaker 1: Someone in bringing in that experience. Well, you said the

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Speaker 1: seventeen years in vic Pole and then you went across

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Speaker 1: to the AFP. What was the decision that swung you

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Speaker 1: to go across.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was I was doing actually I was working

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Speaker 4: in intel at the time, and I was doing a

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Speaker 4: secondment with the AFP out at the airport in a

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Speaker 4: joint in the joint intel group out there, and and.

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Speaker 2: We had some.

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Speaker 4: Victoria Police detectives that were out there in the in

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Speaker 4: the investigations team. So it was these joint team and

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Speaker 4: it was really it was really well resourced, and you know,

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Speaker 4: we're looking at basically trusted insiders around the airport and

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Speaker 4: just sort of seeing the opportunities that the AFP offered

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Speaker 4: was like, you know, this is you know, there's something

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Speaker 4: bigger than vic Pole because you know Vic Pole. You know,

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Speaker 4: while I had I had a fantastic time there and

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Speaker 4: worked in all different places, but you know, sort of

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Speaker 4: state based.

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Speaker 1: I know what you're saying. And I would often when

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Speaker 1: I was in New South Wales police look at the

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Speaker 1: AFP and think, oh, well, you could get stationed overseas

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Speaker 1: or different investigations a bit broader. So I can see

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Speaker 1: the temptation there. You've come together. Let's start talking in

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Speaker 1: the build up to the incident, what drew you both

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Speaker 1: to counter terrorism?

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Speaker 4: So I I was in the Security Intelligence Group at

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Speaker 4: Big Pole for a couple of years in intel there,

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Speaker 4: and i'd started studying my masters in intel. But just

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Speaker 4: before I sort of around about that time going to SIEG,

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Speaker 4: I sort of started seeing you know, the national security

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Speaker 4: sort of things, sort of got interested in in terrorism,

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Speaker 4: and then I switched over and started to do my

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Speaker 4: masters in terrorism and security, started working at Security Intelligence

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Speaker 4: Group and then and which dealt with issue motivated groups

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Speaker 4: and terrorism. And so this is when they started sort

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Speaker 4: of started working in with the early days of the

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Speaker 4: j C T T Joint counter Terrorism Team what Nyla

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Speaker 4: and I were part of. And yeah, and I guess

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Speaker 4: it just kicked off from there and sort of working

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Speaker 4: in the area and you know, sort of getting that interest,

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Speaker 4: I guess was the main motivation. It took me a

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Speaker 4: few years to get over there, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think it's a fascinating area of policing. And

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Speaker 1: my thing was homicide. But if I had a choice

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Speaker 1: of where I'd go outside of homicide, and a regret

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Speaker 1: that I didn't do counter terrorism because I think it

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Speaker 1: gives you a world view of things. You've got to

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Speaker 1: look at things deeply, and you've got to be more

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Speaker 1: proactive and from a criminal investigation point of view, at homicide,

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Speaker 1: we sort of kick in when the shit's happened and

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Speaker 1: come and investigate the crime. But with counter terrorism, it's

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Speaker 1: about predicting the crime and preventing the crime more. Now,

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Speaker 1: your interest in counter terrorism, how did that come about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was some self interests in there at

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Speaker 3: that stage. There was some reshuffling at Parana Task Force

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Speaker 3: of our crews and we're then given the offer of

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Speaker 3: what other task force would you like to go to? Now,

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Speaker 3: because the Organized Crime Task Force was operating in the

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Speaker 3: Federal Police building, I had my security clearances, computer access,

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Speaker 3: understood who the different detectives and federal agents were there.

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Speaker 3: Victoria Police traditionally had one crew of detectives in counter

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Speaker 3: terrorism and they were due to be rotated out, so

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Speaker 3: there was an opportunity to stay within the AFP building

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Speaker 3: working in counter terrorism. At that stage, I thought to myself,

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Speaker 3: from a resume perspective, the self interest of this is

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Speaker 3: a crime type really unique to common legislation, the opportunities

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Speaker 3: that come with it, as Matt spoke about with the AFP,

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Speaker 3: the travel, the experiences is far beyond what Victoria Police

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Speaker 3: could provide. So working jointly with the Commonwealth and bringing

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Speaker 3: the machineries together was something that really interested me. So

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Speaker 3: in twenty twelve that's when I transferred over to the

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Speaker 3: Joint counter Terrorism Team.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, it's interesting that's what drew you to

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Speaker 1: counter terrorism, and I would suggest it at that stage

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Speaker 1: you didn't think you'd be victims of a terrorist act.

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Speaker 1: You thought your role would be preventing those acts and

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Speaker 1: keeping the public safe. But as it turned out, you

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Speaker 1: guys became victim of a terrorist attack. Nineteenth or twentieth

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Speaker 1: of September twenty fourteen, el Bag Daddy issued a fatwah.

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Speaker 1: What I understand and you guys might be able to

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Speaker 1: add to this. It's like an edict or a ruling

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Speaker 1: by a recognized religious authority on the point of Islamic law.

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Speaker 1: So fatwah if I'm pronouncing it properly, This fatwa related

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Speaker 1: to calling for attacking five Western countries including Australia, Canada, France, USA,

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Speaker 1: and United Kingdom, targeting specifically targeting police and military intelligence.

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Speaker 1: When that was issued, Let's hold on to the date,

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Speaker 1: the twentieth of September two thy fourteen. The incident that

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Speaker 1: you guys were victims of was twenty three three days later.

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Speaker 1: You would have heard about that encounter terrorism or be

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Speaker 1: aware of it, and at any point in time you

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Speaker 1: think that would impact on you so deeply and personally.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: I remember rocking into work on that Monday, was at

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Speaker 4: the twenty second and our analysts had got the fat wa,

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Speaker 4: and so they downloaded it and gone through and highlighted

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Speaker 4: it and emailed it out to us all, and I

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Speaker 4: remember reading it. You know, it was you saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: attack the disbelievers in their own countries, and you know

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Speaker 4: especially you know, the US, Canada, the filthy French and

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Speaker 4: Australia and sort of reading it going oh, yeah, you

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Speaker 4: know this is just the usual rhetoric, and you know

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Speaker 4: that that isis carries on with and just more sort

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Speaker 4: of more proof to what we're about.

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Speaker 2: As in the j C. T. T.

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Speaker 4: You know, we've we've got to look at this a

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Speaker 4: little bit more closely. And yeah, so and you sort

440
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 4: of think, you know whatever, you know pretty much and

441
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: and then I guess when you start sort of in hindsight,

442
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 4: you're looking back and there's all these indicators around what

443
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 4: did happen at that stage, you know, throughout the western

444
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 4: countries and you know in the Middle East, and you

445
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 4: know that that fat wire was a pretty important call

446
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 4: to arms for ISIS, and.

447
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah it was. I guess it was the start of

448
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: bigger things to come.

449
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: Well, when they're when they're identifying the potential targets as

450
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: police and or military, we stand out like it's not

451
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: it's not hard. And I remember when that came through,

452
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: there was a point in time when it was just

453
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: reiterated to us that you've got to be careful out there. Again,

454
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: your your take on it.

455
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, as Matt said, the intelligence tellists had done some

456
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 3: work around it that stage. I don't think any of

457
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: the Western intelligence agents has had any strategic knowledge of

458
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 3: where this document would end up, and essentially the world

459
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 3: was watching and certainly our incerdent then hallmarked what occurred

460
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: from that data on September onwards twenty fourteen, with many

461
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 3: terror attacks inside inspired by ISIS in those different countries

462
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 3: that were nominated specifically against police and military mainly that

463
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 3: were targeted. So Curtis Cheng in New South Wales in

464
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, absolutely, yeah. The police in New York ken

465
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 3: Healley on foot patrol a month after our incert when

466
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 3: a Muslim convert took to him with a hatchet to

467
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: the back of the head and the police fatally shot

468
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 3: the offender.

469
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: There.

470
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 3: We saw attax in France for the police in their

471
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: police station and it can you need on So when

472
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: we myself and Matt both had a trip to New

473
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: York and we met with the director of counter Terrorism

474
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 3: over there and he spoke about whenever New York speaks

475
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 3: about terror attacks, they always speak about Davie Hills, Melbourne, Australia.

476
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's well when we're looking at it. When

477
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: it was issue, that was three days before you guys

478
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: were attacked. So how were your tasks that day? What happened?

479
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: You got together and that was a tasking you had

480
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: to go to speak to Newman.

481
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were originally we were originally tasked on the

482
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: Monday to go and speak to him and Victoria Police

483
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: their security there security and organized Crime Intel unit. We're

484
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: going to go and speak to one of haters mates.

485
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 4: And it was sort of a bit of doing and

486
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 4: throwing on that on that Monday, and it was decided

487
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 4: we didn't have enough people, so it was put off

488
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 4: until the Tuesday.

489
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: So can you explain going to speak to him the

490
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: purpose of what you were trying to achieve?

491
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: So for us, I looked at three objectives here. To

492
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 3: start off, there was no arrest power for what we

493
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 3: knew about what his behaviors had been. So the first

494
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 3: one was around disruption. So I look at it if

495
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 3: we're talking about the crime type of drugs, if we

496
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: were to knock on a drug dealer's house and alert

497
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: them that the police are watching you, you would see

498
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: them stop drug dealing straight away. They'd move out their

499
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: hydro crops so their pill press whatever it is, and

500
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: start up in another location in a few weeks time.

501
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: So disruption for us. Initially, I'm thinking, okay, if we're

502
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: in front of him, he'll see that there's some interest

503
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 3: in his behavior and he would de escalate that because

504
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: what he'd been doing was google searches on Prime Minister

505
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: at Tony Abbott at the time, had been looking at

506
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: how to make explosives example, and also the daily agenda

507
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: of Tony Abbott where he'd be when he was next

508
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 3: coming to Melbourne. So there was behaviors we're aware of,

509
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 3: as well as him waving the Shaharta flag at the

510
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: Dandidong Shopping Center on the Friday before our winter.

511
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: And just to explain those that don't know what that flag.

512
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: Is, yeah, so the Shaharda is an Islamic display of faith,

513
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 3: essentially meeting there's one God and only one God, which

514
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: is black and white in color and was similar to

515
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: the one I think displayed at the Link Cafe siege

516
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: out the windows by Man Monas. So Newman had been

517
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: waving that flag at the Dandidong Shopping Center, which is

518
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: a very multicultural suburb where you've got Sunnis and Shia Muslims,

519
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: and again there's some social disharmonies between both of those

520
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: religious groups, so for him to be waving the Shaharta

521
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 3: flag caused significant alarm. Now, luckily for us, we had

522
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: twenty five Victoria police recruits doing a foot control at

523
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: that shopping center, doing a training operation, getting confidence speaking

524
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 3: to the public and being seen in public with their

525
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: accouterments on. They spoke to Newman on the day where

526
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 3: he cooperated with them, gave them his identification, but also

527
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: told them that he wasn't here to cause harm to

528
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: the shoppers or the shopping center, but at some stage

529
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 3: our government would pay for what it's done.

530
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: Okay, And this is coming from an ada and year

531
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: old kid that's well not intimidated by police. Yeah, that's right, dynamics.

532
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: A little bit, absolutely correct. So that was part of

533
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 3: the reason why we're speaking to him about the flag waving.

534
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: So the second objective was intelligence gathering and the third

535
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 3: one was human source acquisition potentially.

536
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So did you consider it the high risk? It's

537
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: something that you did informally going out to speak to

538
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: and how many police went out to speak to him?

539
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: Where are you going to find him?

540
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 4: So, like I said, you know that Monday was decided

541
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: we wouldn't go out and then on the Tuesday, we

542
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 4: came into work and they said, okay, we got and

543
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 4: they bought four in them. So it was me and

544
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 4: the other guy who were going to go out on

545
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 4: the Monday, plus Nile and one other so we had

546
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 4: sort of four people.

547
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: Okay. So at that point you anticipated that was a

548
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: potential risk you're taking four police out, and.

549
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: You know it was.

550
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 4: And it was sort of around this time that because

551
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 4: he was an asy O person of interest, so they'd

552
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 4: sort of pass that down into the j C t

553
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 4: T that that they're obviously a part of, and they

554
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: wanted us to go and speak to him because there

555
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 4: was some intel around him wanting to purchase some knives

556
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 4: because they're not armed and police are. Then that was

557
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: sort of their sort of that they're there thinking. And

558
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 4: importantly that the previous week when he was waving that

559
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 4: flag around, there was some counter terrorism raids in Brisbane

560
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 4: and Sydney and now I think there were fifteen arrests,

561
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: and that was why he was waving the flag.

562
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: Around, showing support for the YEP as well as you.

563
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 4: Know that well at the time we didn't know, but

564
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 4: you know that that was all that you know, you know,

565
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 4: travel to the Middle East, you know, for you know,

566
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 4: for Western has traveled to the Middle East. Yeah, fight

567
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: and that. So it was all and his passport had

568
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 4: been canceled and all this sort of stuff by Asia

569
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 4: would sort of done this. But yeah, on that and

570
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 4: funnily enough, we'll go back to that. That Thursday when

571
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: he was waving the flag, he went home and made

572
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 4: a phone call that night. There was someone in the

573
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 4: room with him. We don't know who that was, but

574
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 4: he was making a phone call and as because he

575
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 4: was a person of interest of Asia, they had his

576
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,959
Speaker 4: at his phone tapped and as it sort of started ringing,

577
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 4: he was talking to the person in the room with

578
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 4: him and said, referring to the police officers at the

579
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 4: Dannlong Plaza that day, if I had had a knife,

580
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 4: I would have stabbed them. And that shows where he

581
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 4: was at in his own head. But the Azio interception

582
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 4: team didn't listen to that phone call because it was

583
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 4: not answered. That went off and just sat in the ether.

584
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 4: And you know, that wasn't discovered until you know, months

585
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 4: into the coronial investigation. So you know, there was a

586
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 4: lot of intel you know that wasn't passed on or

587
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 4: that was missed sort of in the lead up and

588
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 4: on the day of us going out there, saying that

589
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 4: we did know that Hayda was with some of his

590
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 4: mates out at Warburton doing some bushwalking and clicking spring

591
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 4: water and this sort of thing, because we were getting

592
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 4: reports from Asia surveillance that they are out there. So

593
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 4: that's why we decided I would go and speak to

594
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 4: his mom and dad and just sort of get a

595
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 4: bit of an insight and a feel into what they

596
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 4: were like as well as what Newman was sort of

597
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 4: going through with their thoughts. So that's when, yeah, the

598
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 4: four of us went out to the family home. The

599
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 4: two other guys stayed in the car and Nyla and

600
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 4: I went and had to chat with their parents and

601
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 4: his two brothers were there at the same time.

602
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: And what saw the field? Did you come away from

603
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: the house after speaking to the parents.

604
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: So initially Gary my role was to be on the

605
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: cover team purely for this deployment. The day before, on

606
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: Monday twenty second of September, I'd been promoted to the

607
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 3: rank of sergeant at Nari Warren Police Station, so about

608
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 3: fifteen minutes away from Daver Hills would have been the

609
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 3: uniform station where I was going to be starting at

610
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: in counterterrorism at this stage for coming up to three years,

611
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: who had completed all my counter terrorism training, had a

612
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: reasonably good feel for investigations. I was a Tier four

613
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 3: interview advisor. So being comfortable with people and knowing their

614
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: body language generally and how they'll react to us gives

615
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: us that insight that ye're speaking of. So at the

616
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: last minute, the decision was made by the AFP acting

617
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 3: team leader out there to put me and Matt together

618
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: to speak to the Hater family. We arrived about three

619
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 3: o'clock in the afternoon with the Hater family greeted by

620
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: the mother and father in a modest house. From memory

621
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 3: it was they were very nice, respectful people to us.

622
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: There was no.

623
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 3: Sign of any animosity or hatred towards the West from them,

624
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 3: and they are absolutely the people and their sons that

625
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 3: were contributing to the social cohesion that the Australian or

626
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: Victoria was enjoying at that stage. So we spoke to

627
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 3: them at lengths about Newman's behaviors, what he'd been up to,

628
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 3: the sort of the life movements of what he's been

629
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: up to, and they were speaking reasonably positively about some

630
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 3: futures with enrolling in Tafe to do a course. He

631
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 3: had a part time job, So for me, there wasn't

632
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: the worrying factors that this is coming up to a

633
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: fatal intersection with him because of the way that they

634
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: were letting us know that they were monitoring him. They

635
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: told him to stay away from extremists, and they had

636
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 3: a picture of him, which we knew behind the scenes,

637
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 3: he wasn't telling mum and dad the complete truth as

638
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: to his associations with those people.

639
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: I put him myself in that position if I went

640
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: and spoke to a family and you're looking at getting

641
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: the background or the feel of an eighteen year old kid,

642
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: and then you meet the family like that give you

643
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: some sort of comfort that aka, well it's maybe it's

644
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: just a kid being a kid, and his radicalization hasn't

645
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: run that deep, the offense hasn't happened. Then you've got

646
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: to sort of anticipate what's going to happen.

647
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: As you know, within policing, there's the guilty act, guilty

648
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 3: mind that's got to be complete there now from a

649
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 3: risk assessment point of view. On the Monday, the twenty

650
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: second of September, Newman had some involvement with Victoria police

651
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 3: from July, so three months earlier, well two months earlier,

652
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 3: where he'd actually been present at the fountain Gate shopping

653
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: center in Endeaver Hills, fountain Gate at midnight, where a

654
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 3: shotgun had been produced by a third party, when Newman

655
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: actually took the firearm off that person and voluntarily gave

656
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 3: it to Victoria police investigators in July and made a

657
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 3: statement to support the prosecution about the person that had

658
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 3: had access to that firearm. So certainly when I got

659
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: access to that statement, I readit that provided me some comfort, thinking, well,

660
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 3: in July, he could have turned that firearm on the

661
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: investigating police members, but chose to give it to them

662
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: and make a say.

663
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: We're only talking three four months before, correct, Yeah, okay,

664
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: all right, so you went to the family home. You're

665
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: then due to meet him at the police station. The

666
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: arrangement's been made for him to come to the police

667
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: station or no.

668
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: Not. At that stage.

669
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 4: We'd sort of spent about an hour, I guess, talking

670
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 4: to his mom and dad and his two brothers, and

671
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 4: you know, they sort of they were, you know, allaying

672
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 4: some of their concerns, but also just looking around the

673
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 4: house and you know, like it was, you know, and

674
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,479
Speaker 4: they were really nice, care you could just tell that

675
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 4: they were a caring, caring family. And because we'd heard about,

676
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 4: you know, wanting to purchase knives and and he was

677
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 4: waving that Shaharta Flager the previous week at dwan Non

678
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 4: shopping center, we asked to look at his room and

679
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 4: we went up had a search of his room, just

680
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 4: a very it was a cursor research, but just to

681
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,479
Speaker 4: make sure that there was nothing there, and there wasn't.

682
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 4: Like he was pretty sparse. I think he was living

683
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 4: between that house and his mate's place, so they were

684
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 4: sort of he was going in between. So we had

685
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 4: a look there and then we asked his mum and

686
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 4: dad for his phone number and they gave it to us,

687
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 4: and his mum I think her comment was, he never

688
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 4: answers his phone. You can try, but he won't answer,

689
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 4: and we thought okay, So then we left and knowing

690
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 4: that he was still out out east with his mates,

691
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 4: and we went back to in Devil's police station and

692
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 4: we were sort of sitting around and Nile said, well,

693
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 4: we've got his name, we might as well give it,

694
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 4: give it a guard and lo and behold, he answered

695
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 4: after about the second ring, so from an unknown number,

696
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 4: and there was a bit of discussion between him and

697
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 4: I ale to where we were going to meet. They

698
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 4: initially wanted to meet us at Hungry Jack's in Hellum,

699
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 4: and as we know, it's probably not a good place

700
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 4: to talk about issues of terrorism around families and all

701
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 4: that sort of stuff, plus our security and all that.

702
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 4: So there was a lot of toing and throwing about

703
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 4: coming into the police station, and eventually he agreed to

704
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 4: come in and I think it was about a quarter

705
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 4: past seven when that phone call was made. He said, yeah,

706
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 4: I'll be in there and about in about half an hour.

707
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 4: So we were sitting in the mess room at the

708
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 4: police station, the four of us, you know, we just

709
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 4: sort of discussed what we would, you know, where we'd

710
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: go about it. And because Nile and I had spoken

711
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: to his parents and his brothers, it was sort of

712
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 4: a pretty obvious decision that we would be the ones

713
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 4: that would go and speak to him, and yeah, the

714
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 4: other two just sort of hang back and.

715
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: Did it just be about so he arrived at the

716
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: police station, or saw him out the front of the

717
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: police station.

718
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the phone called a newman as Matt said

719
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 3: was about quarter past seven. There been a decision within

720
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 3: the four police members there that myself and Matt would

721
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: continue on with speaking to Newman in regard to it,

722
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 3: because we'd had the information. Yeah, considering my role was

723
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: purely covered team, I didn't have an interview plan done up,

724
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 3: so as Matt spoke about we quickly workshopped what appropriate questions.

725
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: Without knowing him, there was a bigger counter terrism investigation

726
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: going on behind the scenes, So in my diary I

727
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 3: Will wrote down some basic topics to discuss with him.

728
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: I spoke to Matt and the other AFP members about

729
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: the need to search him upon his arrival because some

730
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: of the information we'd known was that a month earlier

731
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: he'd been seen playing with a knife. So when we

732
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: look at our control of weapons legislation, you've got to

733
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 3: suspect on reasonable grounds so that they've got access to

734
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 3: a knife. I'm thinking about the legalities of information from

735
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: one month earlier, with no current intelligence around that do

736
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 3: we So as part of the planning, we're going to

737
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 3: search him when he arrives. Because Newman had stated to

738
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 3: me on the phone he didn't want to come inside

739
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 3: the police station, which for me and our three objectives.

740
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 2: That was fine.

741
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: We could meet with him anywhere, as Matt said, as

742
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 3: long as it's safe and secure and we had our

743
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 3: numbers there without impacting public safety. So Newman said he'd

744
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 3: be there in fifteen minutes. In reality, it took him

745
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 3: five minutes to get there because what was unknown to

746
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 3: us at the time, he was running every single red

747
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: light to get to meet with us.

748
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 2: Now that is.

749
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: A telling benefit of hindsight, isn't it absolutely creeped himself

750
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: up into a friend.

751
00:42:58,920 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

752
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: The myself and Matt don't have the ability to We've

753
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: not heard him speak before on a telephone, so I

754
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 3: don't know when I'm speaking to him about whether he's

755
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 3: being guarded, whether he's being honest and open with us,

756
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 3: apart from my own sort of intuition as to what

757
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 3: I think this phone call is. In the background, I

758
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 3: heard someone saying, get them to come to us, top stuff.

759
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: And that's why we decided no, no, they come to

760
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:27,919
Speaker 3: the police or he.

761
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: Comes out a good call.

762
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, in hindsight, absolutely, but standard policies essentially.

763
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've decided that you'll speak to him, did

764
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: he ring you or you just wait out in front

765
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: of the police station for him.

766
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: So he then phoned us up within that five minute

767
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: period to say I'm out the front of the police station.

768
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: So I asked what car he'd be in, which he

769
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: described it, and then myself, Matt, and the other AFP

770
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 3: members spoke about essentially the order of March.

771
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: So myself and Matt would go out to speak to him.

772
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 3: There's no way I'm taking four police members out to

773
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: speak to an eighteen year old who's voluntarily coming into

774
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 3: a police station. It's the wrong look, absolutely it is.

775
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 3: So the decision was leave the two federal police members

776
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 3: inside the police station. So if we can bring him

777
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 3: back in, great, we've got coverage. But if not, we

778
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: knew there was surveillance outside covering us as well.

779
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: How far away were they from when you guys first

780
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 1: approached him.

781
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, not aware of where they were. I suspect

782
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 3: they would have been probably around one hundred one hundred

783
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 3: and fifty meters away with from what I understand, they

784
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 3: didn't have a clear eyeball about what was happening, but

785
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 3: they were in the vicinity and they knew our proximity.

786
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 3: So myself and Matt walk out we both had our

787
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 3: day books with us casually dressed. Now it was about

788
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 3: seven thirty in the evening. The weather had been a

789
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 3: beautiful day, but then in the evening it turned reasonably chilli.

790
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 3: So if I knew we'd be out that late, I

791
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 3: would have had a jacket. So the car was parked

792
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: about thirty meters away in a combined area where it

793
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: was residential. There was the childcare center and then the

794
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: police station and close proximity to each other. Now, the

795
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: first thing I noticed was newman had reversed his car

796
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 3: into the car park and was sitting on the bonnet.

797
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 3: So for me, that was a little bit unusual, ast

798
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: wide revers his car in considering no other car spots

799
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: were taken and he had free run essentially that car park.

800
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 3: So I called out to him, caught out his name,

801
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 3: and he acknowledged it was him, and he started walking

802
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: towards us, And again understanding or looking for risk factors

803
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: on looking at his behavior, there's nothing in his eyes,

804
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 3: as nothing in the way he's walking towards us that

805
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 3: indicates some sort of attacks imminent. But the alarming thing

806
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 3: for me was he had his right arm in his

807
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 3: right jacket pocket, and his left arm was down by

808
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: his side. Now, for me, if I've got a jacket on,

809
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 3: it's either both hands in my pocket or both hands out.

810
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 3: So the one hand in the pocket was reasonably alarming

811
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 3: for me considering the intelligence it was known. So as

812
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 3: I'm walking towards him, I'm thinking, how do I see

813
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 3: what's in that pocket without disrupting the intelligence gathering, the

814
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: human source acquisition and disruption. If I was to stop

815
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 3: and pull a firearm on him and ask him to

816
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 3: open his jacket, if he didn't have a knife on him,

817
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: that would have been a national incident and I would

818
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: have been looking for a new job. I suspect the

819
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 3: next day. So I thought, if I extend my hand

820
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 3: from a distance, he'll see that it's an act of chivalry,

821
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 3: will shake hands, and that will be a good judgment

822
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 3: point to see whether he's going to respond to that.

823
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: So I took my hand out, he took his right

824
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 3: hand out. We met, shook hands, and I introduced.

825
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: Him to Matt.

826
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: We walked back to his vehicle, where I then placed

827
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: my daybook on top of his his car roof and

828
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 3: then said to him, Okay, I'm going to give you

829
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: a search out to make sure you've got nothing on you.

830
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 3: From that point, Newman asked why, and I repeated, as

831
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 3: we're going to search you. So with that, Newman turned

832
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 3: around with his back to me to make it look

833
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: like he was complying with a pat down search. So

834
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 3: Newman put both hands on the car bonnet, and that's

835
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: when I stepped in with the left and right hand

836
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 3: up to start the patdown search from the shoulders back down.

837
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 3: At that stage, Matt was at the about two meters

838
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: or a meter and a half away from it, looking

839
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,919
Speaker 3: in the back window of the car to make sure

840
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 3: there was no one else in there and what other

841
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: intelligence might be seen. So as I'm just about to

842
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 3: step in to do the search, Newman, unbeknown to me,

843
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 3: in that right jacket pocket I was speaking about, he

844
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 3: had a pocket knife with a blade of probably about

845
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 3: six centimeters on it. So with that knife he spun

846
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 3: around and has impacted me in the left forearm, slicing

847
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: through the older nerve. And at that stage, the brain

848
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: and the body working at two different speeds. Here, I'm

849
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 3: in detective mode, thinking about the questions, thinking about the

850
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 3: methodology behind what we're going to do. So then to

851
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 3: see the glint of a knife butt in my forearm.

852
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: It's the old hang on, what's going on here? So

853
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: then newman pulls the knife back, goes for me again,

854
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 3: which this is really close range for out here. So

855
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 3: I throw the left arm on it and hits my

856
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 3: wrist as I'm trying to move backwards to gain gain

857
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 3: some distance away from him, and then with that I

858
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 3: actually fall over onto the ground because again the brain

859
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 3: and the body working at two different speeds, so I

860
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 3: fall over. With my training from the early days of policing,

861
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: if you're on the ground, if you're in a pub situation,

862
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 3: you'd always try and cover your firearm. So that training

863
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: kicked in where I thought, I'm going to have to

864
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: cover my firearm to make sure he doesn't get it,

865
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 3: incorrectly assessing we'll hang on. It's not trying to get

866
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 3: my firearm. He's actually trying to kill me. As I'm

867
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 3: rolled over onto my firearm, that's when he steps over

868
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 3: me and walks straight over to Matt.

869
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: So Matt pick it up from there. Is that how

870
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: you how it's just been described by Nile? Is that

871
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: how you witnessed what went on? Then?

872
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I was sort of around that driver's side

873
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 4: looking in the car, because we knew he was with

874
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 4: his mates that day, making sure there was no one

875
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 4: in there that going to surprise us or see if

876
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 4: there's anything anything in there. And I heard I heard

877
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 4: Nile say, you know, I'm going to search you, and

878
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 4: then new Hman say why. And then I sort of

879
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 4: as I'm sort of looking in there, I've I've looked up,

880
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 4: and then Nile wasn't there, and I was sort of,

881
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 4: what's sort of I was a bit confused as to

882
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 4: what was happening. But by this stage Newman had moved around.

883
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 4: He was probably standing about level with the front driver's

884
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 4: side tire, and he had this that that that folding

885
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 4: knife just at his at his waistband and he had

886
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 4: this and I remember this pretty clearly. He had this

887
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 4: demonic look on his face and it was and I'm

888
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 4: sort of going, hang on, what's going on?

889
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? What what is you know?

890
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 4: And and what While I say, I'm thinking this process

891
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 4: like this is happening, like you know, really really quickly.

892
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 4: And at that as soon as I saw that knife,

893
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 4: like I said before, I had auditory exclusion. I just

894
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 4: went I just went deaf totally couldn't hear. I couldn't

895
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 4: hear anything. And apparently I don't remember saying it, or

896
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 4: I definitely didn't hear myself say it. I yelled knife

897
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 4: and as you do in your training, and and then

898
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 4: Newman started started to attack me. So we probably, I

899
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 4: don't know, a meter and a half two meters away,

900
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 4: and as we know in our training, you know, we're taught,

901
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 4: you know, within you know, six meters with a knife,

902
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 4: you don't have that much time. So I'm sort of

903
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 4: fighting with him with my left arm, you know, push

904
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 4: trying to push him away while I'm you know, trying

905
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 4: to get my.

906
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: You just had a playing close whole.

907
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it had a.

908
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 4: It had a small button sort of down halfway down

909
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 4: the holester that you'd push in and and then pull

910
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 4: your firearm out. But lost fine motor skills. So I'm

911
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 4: pushing the button or pulling pushing the button in all

912
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 4: you know, and you know, while we're struggling. So I

913
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 4: just couldn't get my firearm out. And then so he

914
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 4: so Newman was was attacking me, and and I thought,

915
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 4: you know, I need to create some distance here. You know,

916
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 4: this is getting a little bit serious, but still in

917
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 4: my mind, I didn't know at that stage that i'd

918
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 4: been stabbed, but I sort of did, but it was

919
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 4: this confusing time, but I knew how a knife, So

920
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 4: I'm moving away. So I sort of moved back and

921
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 4: thinking I've got to create more distance, so I went

922
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 4: to ground.

923
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: Had he stabbed you multiple times at that stage, Yes,

924
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: you didn't. I didn't realize it didn't. Okay, so you're

925
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: stepping back.

926
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 4: So so, like I said, I don't know what order

927
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 4: any of the stab wounds happened. But I moved back

928
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 4: and thought, I've got to go to ground, create some distance,

929
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 4: you know, so you can use the legs to keep

930
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 4: them away, and this sort of thing on my feet.

931
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 4: So I've gone back, gone to ground. Thought I'd give

932
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 4: himself some time to get the firearm out. But anyway,

933
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 4: he has then sort of moved between me and the

934
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 4: daycare center that we were sort of parked outside, or

935
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: we were speaking to him outside of it was closed

936
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 4: because it was seven thirty. But so he's come down

937
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 4: the left hand side and around behind me as I'm

938
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 4: on the ground and I'm trying to get my firearm out,

939
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 4: and then I could sense him leaning over me and

940
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 4: I thought, this is.

941
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 2: This is going to be it.

942
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 4: And I knew, you know, sort of from CT and

943
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 4: seeing ICE's videos and what the what their what their

944
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:46,439
Speaker 4: aims were, and you know, this is his goal here

945
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 4: is to kill me and then behead me. So that

946
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 4: was going through my mind, trying to get my gun

947
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 4: out and everything's still deathly silent, and then the next

948
00:53:54,800 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 4: thing I heard was a gunshot, and then Newman just

949
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 4: fell dead beside me, and I next thing was Nile said,

950
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 4: are you all right? Because I'm not sure if you

951
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 4: think he shot Newman or he shot me so we

952
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 4: I said, yep, I'm all good, and he said, go

953
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 4: and get some ambulances. So I got up and sort

954
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 4: of trod into the the police station.

955
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 2: And this is when I realized that I had blood sort.

956
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 4: Of streaming down my face and my chest hurt. Anyway,

957
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 4: got into the police station, there's a few people in

958
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 4: the in the watchhouse, you know, that had come in

959
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 4: to report stuff or whatever. They were a bit freaked

960
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 4: out by Copper running in, blood gushing out of their

961
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 4: face and said, when he gets some ambulances. There's a

962
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 4: lady in there. She got on the phone sight away

963
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 4: ordered some ambulances. I would then went back outside just

964
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 4: to make sure everything was all right with Nile, and

965
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 4: then I went back in and got some arm and

966
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 4: got some first aid, and then the ambulances arrived, and.

967
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: Did you realize the extent of your injuries? And like,

968
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: it's a pretty savage scar right beside your left eye

969
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: there and the chest injury.

970
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 4: Not at the not at the time, I knew like

971
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 4: my chest hurt and there was a blood, a little

972
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 4: bit of blood, but most of the blood was on

973
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 4: the inside because the knife went into the liver. Livers

974
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 4: is like a plastic bag full of blood.

975
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 2: So that was that was the serious issue.

976
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 4: But I didn't know. I knew that I'd been stabbed

977
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 4: there and this one was probably the most A lot

978
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 4: of blood in your face, so that was continually streaming

979
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 4: and there's a small sort of artery up here, so

980
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 4: that was burning a little bit of blood and stuff

981
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 4: like that. My shoulder that and after I went back in,

982
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 4: that's when I knew that something had happened to my

983
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 4: shoulder because that's when the pain started from that. So yeah,

984
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 4: then the ambulancers came and put on the on the

985
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 4: trolley and then you know, the green whistle and off

986
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:16,280
Speaker 4: into the Alfred Hospital.

987
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:20,959
Speaker 1: Okay, well getting back to back to you. Now you've

988
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: been stabbed, you're on the on the deck, then Matt's

989
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: you're hearing what's going on there or getting a sense

990
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: of what's going on there, and Matt's on the ground.

991
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,959
Speaker 1: Take us from what was going through your mind?

992
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Match is saying it. Then, well back, I remember

993
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 3: just before Newman stabbed me, I saw his eyes as well,

994
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 3: and were demonic. I think he's the correct They were fiery,

995
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 3: bright red. Essentially, you could see the anger. You would

996
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 3: see that there was significant harm you wanted to do

997
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 3: with us. So when I heard Matt yell out knife,

998
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 3: that for me prove I had an absolute clarity in

999
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 3: regard to what my actions needed to be from here.

1000
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 3: Without operational safety and tactics training or ost knife means gone.

1001
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 3: There's no other way in policing that that can be interpreted.

1002
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: So I was hearing Matt and Newman struggling as I

1003
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 3: roll off my firearm, knowing that Matt's being attacked here,

1004
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,959
Speaker 3: I look over and I can see it and Matt

1005
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 3: is now on the ground and Newman is bent over

1006
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 3: him and stabbing him. I believe around the shoulder area

1007
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: at that stage, and it is ferocious.

1008
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: You're seeing this, this is yeah.

1009
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 3: That's right, absolutely, all while I'm drawing my firearm. So

1010
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 3: to the credit of the training, I actually did run

1011
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 3: through in my mind about baton spray not effective, close range,

1012
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 3: too far or.

1013
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 1: That.

1014
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 3: So, yes, this is a firearm. Intern I'm going to

1015
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 3: have to discharge it. I caught out to Newman who

1016
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 3: instead of the police challenge, it was actually get off him.

1017
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 3: I yelled out that obviously no impact. So from about

1018
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 3: four and a half meters away, seeing that he's stabbing

1019
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 3: into Matt, all I have to shoot at is It

1020
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 3: was a really tough target.

1021
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 2: I'm not a.

1022
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 3: Not i'd say extremely proficient with a firearm. It had

1023
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 3: been five months and three weeks since I'd last done

1024
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 3: the firearms training, so a little bit rusty when you're

1025
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 3: nearly out of cycle. So I know all I've got

1026
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 3: to shoot at is either the legs or the head.

1027
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 3: I don't have a torso to shoot at because he's

1028
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 3: bent over Matt. Now, of course, without training, it's the

1029
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 3: center of mass that we're trying to shoot at. The

1030
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 3: legs they're close to Matt, where Matt's lying down. If

1031
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 3: I shoot too low, there's a chance I could shoot

1032
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 3: or kill Matt. So the head at this stage is

1033
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 3: the object for me to shoot at. It's a moving target,

1034
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 3: it's low light, it's four and a half meters away.

1035
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 3: I've got blood coming out of my left arm. I

1036
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 3: managed to get the firearm out one handed, steadied it

1037
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 3: with my left arm, and then a reactive shot. I

1038
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 3: had the sights lined up with human's head, pulled the

1039
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 3: trigger and impacted him in the head, killing him instantly.

1040
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 3: Now for me, the relief when the body fell beside Matt,

1041
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 3: and as Matt said, I asked if he was aka

1042
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 3: and he said yes. For me, that was thank god,

1043
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 3: Matt's okay. Again, not realizing how many injuries Matt had

1044
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 3: actually received, and at that stage, I asked Matt to

1045
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 3: go inside and get some assistance. At that stage, my

1046
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 3: detective training really kicked in. You'd remember when you did

1047
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 3: your detective training. There's a crime scene prack. You've got witnesses, offenders,

1048
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 3: the media, everyone turning up, and you're the detective in

1049
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 3: charge and directing it. Now, a week before i'd been

1050
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 3: involved in that shooting. I'm a regular blood data every

1051
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 3: three months. The person who took my blood actually made

1052
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 3: the comment to me that.

1053
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 2: If I was to.

1054
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 3: Lose ever to lose blood quickly, I wouldn't go into

1055
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 3: shock as quick as others because my body's used to

1056
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: losing four or five hundred miles of it's interesting blood.

1057
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 3: So at that stage, then after the shooting, it was okay,

1058
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 3: he's clearly died as a result of the shooting. Now

1059
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 3: it's about the preservation of the crime scene, because, as

1060
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 3: you know, within policing transparencies the number one thing about.

1061
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: What we do.

1062
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look just on what you guys have told

1063
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: that happens so quick and the thing that you're up

1064
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: against in policing, and I think you guys have articulated

1065
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 1: very well in the way that you've explained the situation.

1066
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: You're coming up at a level of an awareness. You're cautious,

1067
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 1: but you've got someone that's coming with a malicious intent

1068
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: to go at you in a frenzied attack like you

1069
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: did what you just described. It's like time slows down

1070
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: all the things that you're trying to process, and then yeah,

1071
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 1: you've switched. I think this I want to unpack this

1072
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 1: a little bit you'll switch straight into police made straight

1073
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 1: after an instant. As I said in the introduction, police

1074
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 1: you put on the uniform, carry the badge or whatever,

1075
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: you're still human for God's sake. You guys have been

1076
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: stabbed and someone's been trying to kill you. You've shot someone,

1077
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: and you're thinking about preserving the crime scene. I reckon

1078
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: we take a break at this stage. When we get back,

1079
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the aftermath of it physically

1080
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: and emotionally, and just on your views on all things policing.

1081
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: But I also want to say, guys, thanks for sharing

1082
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: the story. Like I'm sitting here thinking is this the

1083
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: right thing to make you guys read live it? But

1084
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: if one thing it does, it sends an important message

1085
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: out that you know, please get put up on pedestals

1086
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 1: and sometimes deservedly, sometimes undeservedly, but there is a sharp end.

1087
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: The police and then you guys found that. The found

1088
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 1: it in a big way. So how about we take

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Speaker 1: a break and come back for our part to thanks.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, great cheers.