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Speaker 1: From the newsroom. Are news to come today? Good day there,

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Bucklow. Now, one question I always get when

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Speaker 1: people find out I work at us dot com dot

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Speaker 1: AU is how many stories do you have to write

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Speaker 1: each day? Well, the answer varies. Okay, some people write

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Speaker 1: one big, thorough article. Others can bang out up to

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Speaker 1: five breaking news stories in a shift. And occasionally one

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Speaker 1: of our team members will take weeks to do a

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Speaker 1: deep dive on a certain topic and then write a

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Speaker 1: number of pieces about that topic that will get rolled

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Speaker 1: out over several days, which is exactly what my colleague

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Speaker 1: Frank Chung has just done. He's taken a look at

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Speaker 1: one of the most talked about issues in Australia at

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Speaker 1: the moment, which is the number of migrants we're allowing

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Speaker 1: into the country and the effect that's having on our

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Speaker 1: housing crisis. This is a topic that has dominated the

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Speaker 1: federal election campaign so far.

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Speaker 2: Labour has opened the migration floodgates. I record one million

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Speaker 2: migrants have arrived in Labour's first two years.

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Speaker 3: When the borders were lifted. There was always going to

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Speaker 3: be a spike Australians coming home, visitors coming here for

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Speaker 3: the first time.

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Speaker 2: Students migration has been great for our country, but it

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Speaker 2: needs to be well managed.

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Speaker 3: There's only two times that more than nine million visas

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Speaker 3: have been issued in any one year in Australia, both

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Speaker 3: times Peter Dutton with some minister.

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Speaker 1: So are we welcoming in more people than our country

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Speaker 1: can handle? Or are we just not building fast enough

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Speaker 1: to keep up? We'll find out when Frank joins me

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Speaker 1: in the studio in just a second. Frank, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the studio.

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Speaker 4: Andrew.

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Speaker 1: You sounds so happy to be here. You are a

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Speaker 1: man who prefers to write articles rather than talk about

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Speaker 1: them on a podcast, aren't you.

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Speaker 4: Oh look you could say that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well you've done this wonderful immigration series for news

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Speaker 1: dot com dot you. Let's start with some facts and

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Speaker 1: figures because I don't know how big of a problem

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Speaker 1: this is. So how many migrants are being allowed into

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Speaker 1: Australia at the moment, and how does that compare with

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Speaker 1: historical levels?

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Speaker 4: Do I have to speak as loudly as you?

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Speaker 1: I've got a radio background, okay, Frank, I get very

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Speaker 1: excited when a microphone's in front of me.

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Speaker 4: But you don't have to match this. You're yelling at

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Speaker 4: me okay, all right, Wait, So okay, So basically you've

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Speaker 4: got to kind of step back a bit. You've got

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Speaker 4: the net overseas migration number, which is sort of the

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Speaker 4: one that everyone talks about, which is basically just a

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Speaker 4: rivals minus departures, right, And there's several components of that.

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Speaker 4: There's the temporary visas make up the biggest component of that.

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Speaker 4: Then you've also got people also kind of sometimes get

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Speaker 4: mixed up when they talk about the permanent migration program,

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Speaker 4: which is that's an annual number which is capped at

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Speaker 4: the moment, it's capped at one hundred and ninety thousand,

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Speaker 4: and they're people staying in the country for good. Yes,

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Speaker 4: so those are people who issued permanent visas. But the

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Speaker 4: thing with those is that you've got about about sixty

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Speaker 4: percent of those people aren't really counted in the net

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Speaker 4: overseas migration figure because they're people who are already in

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Speaker 4: the country, right, So they're people who are on temporary

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Speaker 4: visas who are then issued a permanent visa. So when

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Speaker 4: you talk about net overseas migration, the biggest component of

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Speaker 4: that is temporary migration. After World War Two, the average

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Speaker 4: annual net overseas migration was about ninety thousand in those

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Speaker 4: In the kind of sixty years after World War Two,

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Speaker 4: we had about two years where there was one hundred

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Speaker 4: and fifty thousand those That was the highest we got.

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Speaker 4: Then in about the kind of mid early two thousands,

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Speaker 4: there was this push to get more migrants into the country.

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Speaker 4: We started to have the mining boom, and Howard effectively

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Speaker 4: doubled net overseas more than double net overseas migration. We

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Speaker 4: went from about ninety thousand a long term average to

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Speaker 4: more than two hundred thousand. Then during COVID, the border

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Speaker 4: has closed and there was no net overseas migration. In fact,

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Speaker 4: it went down a little bit. And then the two

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Speaker 4: years after COVID is when things really went crazy. That's

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Speaker 4: when everyone started to talk about it. Effectively, you had

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Speaker 4: about five hundred and fifty thousand I think from memory

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Speaker 4: come in in the first year after COVID, and then

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Speaker 4: it was a bit less than that. Last financial year

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Speaker 4: it was four hundred and forty six thousand, So you

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Speaker 4: effectively had two kind of capital city size of people

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Speaker 4: come in in a space of two years, which is

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Speaker 4: like about one point one million in the space of

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Speaker 4: two years. And then obviously since then we've had more,

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Speaker 4: and that's a lot of people. No matter which way

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Speaker 4: you spin it, that's a lot of people to come

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Speaker 4: in in a short period of time.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the migrants themselves. What do we know

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Speaker 1: about these people of who are coming into the country.

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Speaker 1: They skilled workers are the majority of them students. Do

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Speaker 1: we have an idea of their makeup?

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Speaker 4: When you talk about temporary migrants, students make up by

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Speaker 4: far the biggest chunk. In the last financial year, there

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Speaker 4: was about three hundred and eighty thousand student visas issued

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Speaker 4: versus something like about one hundred thousand temporary skilled workers

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Speaker 4: students I mean, and that's been the case for many years.

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Speaker 4: Students have been the biggest source of our temporary migration.

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Speaker 4: So at the moment, we have about eight hundred thousand

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Speaker 4: I think from memory in the country. And every year

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Speaker 4: with the proportion of students who come in, there's a

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Speaker 4: significant chunk of them who try to stay in the

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Speaker 4: country and either gain permanent residency or get on to

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Speaker 4: another kind of visa. So it's just visa hopping, you know,

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Speaker 4: and rationally wroughting the system. I wouldn't okay, I don't

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Speaker 4: want to put word, that's a strong way of putting it.

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Speaker 4: But it's fairly well understood that there's a decent proportion

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Speaker 4: of these students that come that want to stay on permanently.

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Speaker 4: And so when you add up all the students or

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Speaker 4: former students who then go on to other visas or

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Speaker 4: who are trying to stay for one one way or another,

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Speaker 4: there's about one point one million sort of current and

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Speaker 4: former students currently in the country.

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Speaker 1: Are they evenly placed out all around the country or

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Speaker 1: are there certain cities that these students and other migrants

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Speaker 1: so kind of like all focusing on.

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Speaker 4: It's obviously the capital cities and Sydney. In Melbourne in particular,

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Speaker 4: it's about more than fifty percent of the of recent migrants,

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Speaker 4: not just students, but more than fifty percent of our

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Speaker 4: migration goes into Sydney and Melbourne and then the other

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Speaker 4: capital cities and much much fewer to the regions.

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Speaker 1: So one of the reasons this is such a big

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Speaker 1: issue is because with all these people pouring into the

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Speaker 1: country at places a huge amount of pressure on Australia's

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Speaker 1: housing market. As we know, there's not enough houses at

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Speaker 1: the moment. What kind of pressure is this placing on

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Speaker 1: an already screwed system.

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Speaker 4: I guess I can put it that way. Everyone knows

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Speaker 4: that we've we're in the middle of a housing crisis.

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Speaker 4: We've got record low vacancy rates in most places, we've

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Speaker 4: got rising rents, we've got extremely high house prices relative

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Speaker 4: to incomes. The disconnect between wages and incomes has been

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Speaker 4: really accelerating since pretty much since the mid two thousands.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This was actually brought up with Anthony Alberinezi on ABC's

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Speaker 1: Q and A in February. Let's have a listen to

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Speaker 1: what he had to say.

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Speaker 2: Why is Australia continuing to maintain record high immigration levels

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Speaker 2: during the worst housing crisis in the nation's history.

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Speaker 3: The biggest thing that you could do area where you

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Speaker 3: could reduce the amount is in students, because some of that, frankly,

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Speaker 3: was being abused. We tried to do that through legislation.

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Speaker 3: Pettit Uton opposed that so it wouldn't go through. It

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Speaker 3: didn't go through the Senate, so we've done it another way.

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Speaker 3: The second area of immigration is in skills, where prioritized

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Speaker 3: construction skills. The viewer spoke about housing. We want people

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Speaker 3: to come here who are involved in construction.

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Speaker 1: And you've spoken to so many people in local communities

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Speaker 1: for your migration series on US dot com dot Au.

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Speaker 1: How are they coping with this surge in migration. Well,

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Speaker 1: it depends on how you ask. It's one of those

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Speaker 1: questions that I think a lot of people don't feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable talking about, right But as you're kind of seeing

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Speaker 1: with the election, it's becoming more and more of an

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Speaker 1: issue that the electorate is talking about. If you ask

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Speaker 1: people in places like Western Sydney, they will say that

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Speaker 1: the roads are congested and the hospitals are full, and

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Speaker 1: it's becoming more of an issue that is affecting their

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Speaker 1: day to day lives. And I think that people are

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Speaker 1: starting to not necessarily say they're anti immigration, but I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people are saying it makes sense

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Speaker 1: to pause or slow down immigration until we can get

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Speaker 1: enough houses built and we can get our infrastructure to

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Speaker 1: catch up. Stick around, Frank in just moment, we're going

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Speaker 1: to find out what both of the major political parties

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Speaker 1: are promising to do about this topic in the federal

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Speaker 1: election campaigns.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: We are chatting about Australia's immigration levels and the effect

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Speaker 1: it's having on Australia's housing crisis. Now, this is something

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Speaker 1: that both Labor and the Coalition have been talking a

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Speaker 1: lot about lately during the federal election campaign. So the

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Speaker 1: big question is what are they proposing to fix it. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's start with the housing policies. Okay, Labor has vowed

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Speaker 1: to fix the supply issue by building one point two

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Speaker 1: million homes by the end of the decade, with Anthony

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Speaker 1: Aberanesi recently announcing.

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Speaker 3: Labor will invest ten billion dollars to build one hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand new homes reserved for first home buyers only.

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Speaker 1: Labour's also going to give all first home buyers access

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Speaker 1: to five percent deposits.

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Speaker 3: Our five percent depositive plan will be open to every

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Speaker 3: Australian looking to buy their first home. It will be

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Speaker 3: available for homes all the way up to the average

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Speaker 3: price in every city and region, and you won't have

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Speaker 3: to pay a single dollar in mortgage insurance. Our government

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Speaker 3: will cover it.

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Speaker 1: As for immigration will last year, Labor introduce legislation to

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Speaker 1: limit the number of international students able to start studying

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Speaker 1: in Australia this year to two hundred and seventy thousand,

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Speaker 1: but the Coalition teamed up with the Greens to defeat

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Speaker 1: that plan. Peter Dutton then came out earlier this month

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Speaker 1: and pledged to limit the number of international students each

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Speaker 1: year to two hundred and forty thousand.

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Speaker 2: Now, first, we'll ease the demand on housing, will ban

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Speaker 2: foreign investors and temporary residents from purchasing existing homes for

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Speaker 2: two years. We will lower the permanent migration program by

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Speaker 2: twenty five percent for two years and will keep it

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Speaker 2: sustainable ongoing.

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Speaker 1: The Coalition also has something called the first home buy

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Speaker 1: a mortgage deductibility Scheme.

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Speaker 2: Today I announced a new policy for first home buyers

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Speaker 2: who purchase a newly built property to live in a

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Speaker 2: Coalition government will allow you to deduct interest payments on

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Speaker 2: the first six hundred and fifty thousand dollars of a

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Speaker 2: mortgage against your taxable income.

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Speaker 1: There you go, Peter Dutton, There all right, Frank. So

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Speaker 1: both parties have got policies to tackle the housing crisis,

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Speaker 1: to tackle migration levels. But out of everyone you spoke

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Speaker 1: to for this series on news dot com dot a U,

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Speaker 1: are they convinced that this is going to be enough

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Speaker 1: to even make a dent in the problems.

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Speaker 4: It's been a question of supply and demand from the beginning, right.

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Speaker 4: So the fundamental problem is we just haven't been building

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Speaker 4: enough houses to accommodate population growth. That's been the case

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Speaker 4: for many years, and it's been a problem that's been

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Speaker 4: building up over the last two decades now, and so

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Speaker 4: the difference between the population growth and the number of

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Speaker 4: new homes we need has been growing every year. So

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Speaker 4: at this point now we've got an undersupply of houses,

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Speaker 4: a chronic undersupply of about two hundred thousand to three

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Speaker 4: hundred thousand homes, depending on how you kind of cut it.

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Speaker 4: So not only do you need to bring back migration

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Speaker 4: to a level that is in line with the current

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Speaker 4: ability to build homes, but you also then need to

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Speaker 4: start tackling the underlying shortage of homes. And that's the

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Speaker 4: real problem. So it's not just as simple as bringing

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Speaker 4: it back to those levels. You actually have to bring

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Speaker 4: almost below that, or failing that, you've got to build

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Speaker 4: more homes. It's a very simple just it's a numbers thing, right.

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Speaker 4: So it's the million dollar question is whether any of

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Speaker 4: this is actually gonna happen. Because Labor's been talking about

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Speaker 4: building these one point two million homes for a while

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Speaker 4: I mean everyone always says they're going to build more homes,

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Speaker 4: but it never really happens. And the reason people get

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Speaker 4: upset about this is because it seems like if you've

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Speaker 4: got a mismatch between supply and demand, and the majority

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Speaker 4: of your demand is coming from population growth, which is

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Speaker 4: coming from immigration, and you've got not enough supply, I mean,

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Speaker 4: is it easier to approve a visa or build a house?

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Speaker 4: So and as we saw during COVID, if the government

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Speaker 4: wants to, they can shut the borders. I'm not saying

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Speaker 4: we need to shut the borders, but the point is

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Speaker 4: that the government likes to talk about immigration. They talk

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Speaker 4: about it almost as if it's the weather, like they

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Speaker 4: have no control over it, and that it just kind

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Speaker 4: of comes and that we've just got to manage it,

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Speaker 4: you know. So that's the kind of frustration you start

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Speaker 4: to hear a lot from people in the streets where

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Speaker 4: they're kind of like, why doesn't the government just cut immigration,

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Speaker 4: like that's it. It seems like a really simple question,

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Speaker 4: and the government says, oh, we're trying this, and that

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Speaker 4: it just seems like no one is in control. And

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Speaker 4: that's the message you hear from a lot of people

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Speaker 4: is like, who's running the show? It feels like no

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Speaker 4: one knows what's going on, And I mean surely that's

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Speaker 4: not true. Like everyone they know what's going on. So

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Speaker 4: it's just people get very frustrated when it just seems

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Speaker 4: like they're getting the run around on this question.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a big topic and it's obviously one of

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Speaker 1: the big talking points of the election. Frank, you've done

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Speaker 1: a wonderful series for news dot com dot are You.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for telling us all about it. That's okay,

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Speaker 1: finishing off as enthusiastic as you started for all your

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Speaker 1: election coverage. Make sure you stay tuned to news dot

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Speaker 1: com dot are You, which out to you again tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: Follow or subscribe to from the newsroom wherever you get

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