WEBVTT - Inside the mind of a serial killer: Ian Cherrington Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.920 What there's the difference between a serial killer and a 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:54.000 lone actor? Today I'm joined by Ern Sherrington. Ern is 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.400 a forensic psychologist who became a detective and moved into 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:02.200 counter terrorism and loan actor threat assessment. If anyone's qualified 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.880 to talk about acts of mass violence, it's him. Ian Sherrington. 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:08.160 Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:09.560 Thank you Gary for having me. 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.640 Well, I'm excited about the conversation. We're going to have. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.640 You've got some vast experience and a whole range of things. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.399 You've got the academic take on crime, and also you 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.119 worked as a police officer for a very long time 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:21.839 over in the UK. 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.360 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so I'm slightly unusual in that 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.480 sense that I was a detective for many years, but 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.280 also before that I was a psychologist and academic as well, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:31.000 So yeah, have that combination. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.240 Yeah, well, it's a different way of looking at crime. 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.400 Speaking of crime, I look today that lay in actors, 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.759 mass killings, extreme ideology, that seems to be the concern 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:47.480 of law enforcement and the major concern. I look back 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.440 at my career in homicide, and we had the gangland killings, 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.120 we had occasionally serial killings. We looked at that that 0:01:55.280 --> 0:02:00.160 was the focus of domestic domestic violence. But am I 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.360 reading the landscape correctly, like these mess killings loan actors 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:09.160 a realistic threat to law enforcement in this day and age. 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.640 Yeah, I mean when I started my career, I worked 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.519 almost exclusively on serial killer cases things like that as 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.880 a behavioral analyst, So I thought a lot about that 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.239 and I was aware of kind of these issues then, 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.480 but certainly in recent years the loan actors style mass attack. 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.480 Sometimes it's terrorism, sometimes it's not. But that sort of 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.639 attack is far more prevalent today, and in my opinion, 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.120 it's a growing problem, and not a problem that's particularly 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:43.160 like just focused on one country. It's an international issue, certainly. Yeah, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:44.320 that's the way I would see it. 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.360 Before we get into the detail, because I want to 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.040 talk about those indicators and all that tell us a 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.280 bit about your background, because I find that fascinating, and 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.320 the psychologists have become a policeman. I've seen it the 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.360 other way around thee Yeah, yeah, it tell us about 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:58.079 your journey. 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.320 Yeah. So when I was a kid, I sort of 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.920 loved d Agatha Christie, you know, Arthur Conan, Douge, Shelock Holmes, 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.520 all that stuff. So I was sort of obsessed with 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:11.519 the whole thing before, you know, when I was quite young, 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.639 and as I got older, I got into the psychology 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.919 of it, and I started reading books about serial killers, 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.280 which is kind of worrying, isn't it in a way. 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.400 But as a fifteen year old, but I read a 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.800 book People, one of the indicators that we probably back then. Yeah, 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.480 so I've sort of turned it around. But I read 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.480 a book called Alone with the Devil, which is a 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.880 book by an American psychiatrist. His name is Ronald Markman. 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:37.960 It's a book from the eighties, so I don't even 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:39.960 know if you can get it anymore. But he talked 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:44.840 a lot about interviewing Charles Manson's followers, and it was 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.520 sort of in my head like how did how did 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.800 he manage to convince those people to get involved in 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:51.440 a murder and all this sort of stuff, and so 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.160 I just found it fascinating the book, and from there 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.360 I basically went to university studied psychology, and then from 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.720 there I did a master's in friends psychology. So I 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:06.760 got involved in understanding criminals, particularly murders and sexual offenses. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.240 And most of the class that I was in that 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:13.600 course with went on to work in prisons or clinical psychology, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.720 Whereas I always had this thing kind of in a 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.360 sense of justice or I was interested, but I wanted 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.280 to actually catch them, if that makes sense. I wanted 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.760 to be on that side, which I guess is just individual. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:31.920 So I applied for a job at a national agency 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.839 in the UK, and this is about twenty five years 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.479 ago now, and I got the job and it was 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.120 just being set up that unit. It was a kind 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.760 of unit designed to study serial of sex offenders and 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.880 stranger murderers across the UK. So we built a big 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.360 database of these things, all the behaviors that you might 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.600 see in a particular murder case. And what I'd done 0:04:55.680 --> 0:05:00.200 just before that was I done my dissertation on murder. 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:04.640 So I looked specifically at a crime scene. If someone's 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.880 attacked in a murder and their face is attacked, does 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:13.000 that indicate whether or not the suspect knew their victim? 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:15.800 And I was allowed to go through a series of 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.920 case files from a police force and examine this and 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.520 study this and test it, and ultimately what the dissertation 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.320 found was that there was two types of situations. One 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.520 was if someone was killed and then the person wanted 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.360 to cover up the crime. You know, body disposed, all 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:37.000 that sort of thing. They sometimes would damage the face 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:38.960 or the teeth, all that kind of thing you might 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.120 see an organized crime, so they're disguising the identity of 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.560 the victim. But the other side of it was when 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:50.080 individuals knew the person, often they would attack someone's face 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.159 because the face is like who they are, if that 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.120 makes sense, like the window to your soul, it's. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.120 Who you and they're trying to bootherate that. 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.880 Yeah, yeah, I mean this is a kind of dissertation 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.719 to do, but interesting for me at the time. So 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.200 I took that with me and I went on to 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.880 become a behavioral analyst, is what it's called. So I 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.680 was a senior analyst at this unit and I did 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.560 that for six or seven years. And what that unit's doing, 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.279 it's really linking crimes. So what we were interested in 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:23.240 was serial murders and sex offenses. So we were trying 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.720 to see if we can link crimes across the country. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.920 There's a famous serial killer in the UK called Peter Sutcliffe, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.359 the Yorkshire Ripper if you heard of him. Yeah, So 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.160 in the sort of late seventies, he attacked he killed 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.840 thirteen women. He was a truck driver and he drove 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.839 all over the north of England. And what they realized 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.800 back then that you'd have murder investigations rue on bits 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.400 of paper. There's no computers in the way that we 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:53.200 have now, no DNA, so you're not linking crimes in 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.880 the way that we would be able to now. So 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:57.839 the unit was kind of set up for the purpose 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.040 of trying to improve that because in the UK there's 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.880 forty three different police forces, so this is the idea 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:06.600 of trying to talk to them all, you know. 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:11.000 And those investigations operating in silos and not passing on information. 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:16.600 We had the same situation here that I won't say 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.080 mistakes because we just didn't understand at that point in 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.200 time the linkage that you could make between the investigations 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:27.119 even between different state police but local area commands and 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:33.119 crime and occur and be investigated in isolation. That type 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.960 of study I've found that fascinating, And what you're talking 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.160 about is not this similar to a journey I went 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.480 on looking as a homicide detective, looking at those type 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.920 of type of links between the offenses, and they also 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.119 find that fascinating what can be told from a crime scene, 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:53.320 the way the body is disposed of, and different things 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:58.360 that you pick up from operational experience as a homicide detective. 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.480 But I like the academic research that's done that clearly 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.680 you're involved in that sort of supports the theories. Whereas 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.560 a detective can walk in and go I think this 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.040 has happened, but there's now it's just more of an instinct. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.200 But the academic research that in the field that you 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.200 were doing was adding the science to it. 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.200 Yeah. Indeed, so if you imagine, you know, having now 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.800 been a detective, you can't done it the other way around, 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.880 like you say, but you start to realize that actually, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.160 as a detective, a lot of kind of what makes 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.320 your career, if you like, is the cases you work. 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:32.080 You know, in that unit, I was exposed to more cases, 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.920 like understanding them, reading them than an average detective would 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.680 ever be. So the value comes partly from the research 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.240 and the analysis, but also from seeing so many of them. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.600 Because in one police force in the UK, you don't 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.840 have many serial murders or many stranger rapes and things 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.400 like that. So we would be sent into the inquiry 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.480 team quite early on in the investigation. We'd go to 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.720 the crime scene, we do all of those kinds of things, 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.840 meet with the SiO, and then we'd give them advice 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.640 and write a report. But we're also given them suggestions 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.160 of investigations, investigative suggestions they might want to follow because 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.160 we've seen it in another case. So it's kind of 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.040 useful to bring that knowledge. And obviously the purpose is 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.720 also to try and link crime, so try and bring 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.000 in other offenses or suspects that they may not have 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.520 considered that live in other parts of the country. Having 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:27.280 done it for a number of years, what I found 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.000 was that it really worked the best if you caught someone. 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.319 So take Peter Sutcliffe as an example. You could then 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:40.600 look back over their crimes and consider not just their behavior, 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:43.240 the sort of behaviors that they would show in their crime, 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.040 which is kind of this idea of an mo you know, 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.600 it's this signature of how they behave, but also where 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.840 they lived, where they worked, what their movements were over 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.360 many years, and you tend to give you like then 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.120 like anchor points that you can draw in other crimes from. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.680 There's lots of examples where that's being quite successful, but 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.640 with sort of linkage behavior which isn't too dissimilar to 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.520 what I'm interested in now. Is what you're looking at 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.520 is you're putting yourself in the mind of that person, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.000 which is a kind of a dark approach, but it's 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:23.080 the necessary approach. Yeah, I do understand that. Yeah, So 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.200 if you look at a series of say a series 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:31.079 of murders, often people start at a younger age, they 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.040 get older over the years. If they get away with 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.520 it long enough, But also they start to learn behaviors 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:40.199 from previous incidents because say it's gone wrong for them, 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.280 or they've been caught once for a minor offense, so 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.160 they might be more careful next time, or they might 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.520 decide to choose to target someone in a different location 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:52.800 because it's easier for them to get away with it. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.160 So you start to try and work that out. Always 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.840 in your mind, it's not like you can link crimes 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.480 just say well, they're exactly the same, because they never are. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.840 And one of the things that used to strike me 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.240 about it was when it's planned, you know, the idea 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.120 of planning a murder attack or a murder of this kind. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.400 Often there are similarities between them, but a lot of 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.800 these offenders are people with jobs, with everyday lives. Many 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.760 of them had families, so they live a normal routine. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.320 So often their offending would hang off the routine. But 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.040 sometimes they would just basically be given an opportunity by chance, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.400 so that then suddenly they commit a crime that's quite 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.960 different to the rest of the others. So these are 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.440 all sorts of things that used to have to think about. 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:43.360 It's complicated. The choice of victims is always an interesting 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.160 who the victims are, and that Peter Sutcliffe one. Did 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.800 he have a particular style of victim that he would. 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:54.400 Target, Yes, so he was known to target sex workers. Initially, 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.080 he was unusual in the sense that he's very violent 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.040 and very immediate violence, often using weapons. He used to 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.880 take a hammer around with him and attack victims like that. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.400 As the years went on and it was more difficult 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.400 to catch him, he became this idea that the FBI used, 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.320 which is this organized versus disorganized kind of patterns of 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.640 serial killers. He started off quite organized, and then as 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.000 it went on, he became more disorganized, so he became 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:28.240 more reckless. He stopped targeting sex workers and started to 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.120 attack other women. But he was able to use his 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.240 job as a means with which to kind of come 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.680 in and out of a particular community and move into 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.280 another community very easily. And I suppose when you look 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.280 at a crime like that in the seventies, as I said, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.079 you've got no DNA, you've got no CCTV. Really, you've 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.880 got nothing like that at all. Totally different environmental Yeah, 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.520 so in some senses, I mean, we didn't exist then either. 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.600 We went back through those kinds of crimes and other 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:01.079 serial killers crimes, but in some senses the behae in 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.240 those days, the behaviors or you really go up to 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:08.000 link crimes together. Nowadays a lot of DNA science makes 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.400 it possible to do that much easier. 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.600 Well, you can with durna that's left you. Instead of 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.760 speculating that these crimes are linked, you can lock it in. 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.640 We've had that with serial sex offenders where the durna 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.720 has been left at the scene. The other thing I 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.840 find interesting in something that I think from an investigative 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.440 point of view, quite often we miss, but it's interesting 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.880 that you raise it. The lifestyle of the offender. Sometimes 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.440 that pattern that you're trying to work out what the 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.240 patterns all about, but it's quite often linked to their 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.440 home environment or their employment. We had a rapist on 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.200 the North Shore that was operating and he would only 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.320 strike on Tuesdays and Thursday nights, and it was confusing 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.199 at first, what's this about, But as it eventually played 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.439 out and he was arrested, charged and convicted with the offenses, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.040 it was to do with knights that he was away 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.440 from home because he was supposedly doing a tech course 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.560 or an evening course. So he could leave his home 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.079 without any suspicion boom rays. But that's why Tuesdays and Thursdays. 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:16.400 But it's a complex thing. But I was fortunate in 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.840 my career worked very closely with doctor Sarah Yull forensic 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.720 psychologists in New South Wales Police, and I found it 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:30.200 fascinating getting that different different perspective from the psychological perspective. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.280 You have the police and we look at things a 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.760 certain way, and then having someone come in and she 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:40.240 would quite often we'd have briefing, after briefings, sit down 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.840 with her and she'd explained something and the moment she said, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.040 I think, yes, okay, that's what we need. I embrace 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.440 working with Sarah. I love working with Sarah. There was 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.480 some police that had a bit of a resistance to it, 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.720 or what are these quacks going to bring into Did 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.280 you experience that at all? Was there any resistance with 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.320 the expertise that you bought into criminal investigation because as 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.720 you know as now having worked as a cop, we 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:05.640 can be fairly sitting their ways. 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.920 Yeah, it's been an interesting journey. I smiled slightly then, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.480 because I'm sort of remembering my younger self. But yeah, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.120 we would be sent into major investigations, you know, policing. 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.480 Back then you're kind of going into often quite a 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:25.000 male dominated environment as well, and sometimes slightly macho environment. 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.640 And yeah, you're a kind of twenty something psychologist with 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.960 an opinion. I was quite opinionated. I think at the time, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.800 I'm smiling there. Yeah, you can imagine me, can't you. 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.960 Who's that? You know, what's he doing here? Sort of thing. 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.280 So every now and again i'd say something valuable and 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.480 then you'd get the attention of an SiO. You know, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:46.080 you would have that, and often it was about building trust. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.400 But you know, you've been a murder SiO. I mean, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.200 you don't have much time to think. Your huge pressure's 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.360 lots to think about all at once, and so a 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.680 psychologist or a behavioral analyst kind of pointing out a 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.680 few things is one of the things you need to 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.680 think about, but not necessarily always the priority. So it 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.080 was difficult early days to get to get heard, and 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.920 over time we just sort of built a relationship. So 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.560 what you found was if you worked with the same SiO, 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.760 then you tended to have a kind of better relationship. 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.200 And I was like, they can understand that the value 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:20.560 you can add to the investigation. 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.320 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And often people often think about crime 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.240 analysis as intelligence analysis, which is a different thing. It's 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:32.320 much more to do with linking intelligence and even sometimes 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.360 doing charts and kind of showing crime patterns and things 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.160 like that. That's not really what we were doing. We 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.880 were doing behavioral linkage, so we were in a different space. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.720 But I was assigned my career, I was assigned the 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.240 North of England and Scotland as a senior around list, 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.720 so I spent a lot of time up there, even 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.880 though I lived in the South of England, and spent 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.360 time with some of the Scottish CIOs in Glasgow and 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.600 Edinburgh and then in the North of England too, so 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.600 we kind of build a relationship to the point then 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.800 that they might ring you up and say what do 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.720 you think of this behavior? As often the questions we'd 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.800 get because it was a bit odd or so odd 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:14.680 behaviors are sometimes useful because underneath there's some reason for them, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.480 but you often see them in series, you know, links 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.000 and patterns. It was interesting, but all I'd say is 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.920 becoming an SAA years later, I'm always very nice to analysts, 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.960 as you can imagine, because because I understand it, and 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:30.760 I kind of see their plate. 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.840 If you like, you know, look, is a team in 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.560 any homicide investigation or major investigation, that's a team effort 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.160 from the bottom persons at the top person. It's all 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.840 about contributing. But I'm just reflecting on some of the 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.919 things that Sarah helped me with. I was on a 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:53.680 serial killing case and the victims four year old girl, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.159 sixteen year old girl, and sixteen year old boy. And 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.880 it was hard to articulate because we're pushing this matter 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.720 through court and a whole range of things, and hard 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.239 to articulate because people going, well, you say, because I 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.800 was arguing that these crimes are linked, and it would 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:12.720 be put back, well, oh that the victims one's a 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.760 four year old girl, one's a sixteen year old girl, 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.600 sixteen year old boy. And I try to articulate that 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.480 they were linked. And there was very good reasons why 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.040 these crimes were linked, and the tendency and coincidence evidence 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.399 that were related, the way the bodies were disposed of. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.680 But Sarah, when I was creating documents for the court 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:39.280 and doing affidavids and different things, identified that this person 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.280 was motivated. It was a sexual motivation. And he is 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:48.920 prepared to kill to get a sexual satisfaction. He wasn't 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.919 driven by the sex, wasn't aimed at the victims, but 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.840 it was he was prepared to kill those victims to 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.480 satisfy his sexual urges. And all of a sudden, it 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.280 was a light bulb moment. And I've been working on 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.040 the case for years trying to argue and justify why 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.840 I'm saying these crimes are linked, and just little things 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.520 like that I felt were beneficial another thing that I 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.080 would use the psychologists for in police in I'd like 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:13.600 to get your view on this because I think you've 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.480 done some study on this as well, about police interviews, 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.800 whether it's a crucial witness or the suspect, and break 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.880 it down in the basis or the most basic form 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.040 carried or a stick, What way should I approach the interview? 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.560 I found that beneficial before I sat down in the 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.080 interview room. Sometimes is that something that you were involved 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:35.480 in as well? 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.480 Yeah, I didn't personally advise around that, but we did 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.959 give them a sense of what sort of person they 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.720 might be talking too about years later, when I'm doing 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:48.520 the police interviews myself and I've been in Sao where 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.480 we've had psychologists and we've had people guiding us in 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.240 terms of the approach to interviews. And I'm a big 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.520 advocate of the whole peace model and the rapport of things, 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.640 so that back in the day, even when I started, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.479 I mean when I was a police officer, you know, 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.119 you were sort of thrown in and you ask your 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:10.600 questions a little bit kind of staccata, don't you and 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:13.440 looking at a piece of paper and all this, and 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.439 I sort of came with a different view because of 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.479 my background, I guess, so I used to keep it 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.479 very relaxed and try and not it's not befriending people, 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.080 you know, you know what they've done, but it's just 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:31.040 about kind of sometimes preparing beforehand so they don't dislike 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.520 you if you like immediately. And sometimes as an SiO, 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.679 we had interview teams that interviewed suspects and I would 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.720 make a decision to pull someone out of that because 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:47.320 the suspect clearly doesn't like their face or the way 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:49.359 they come across, whatever it is. They might remind them 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.560 of someone, but they didn't have the rapport. And I 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.879 just think rapport if you're going to get anywhere in 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.200 a police interview I think reports important, so I always 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.440 choose to try and make conversational. Obviously, in the back 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.439 of your head you've got the kind of points you 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.240 want to get across and the evidence that you want 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.520 to try and improve. But I found no real benefits 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.960 of trying to take someone head on or morally kind 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:18.160 of dominate them if you like, because of what they've done. 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:22.960 I always felt in the interview room the most simplest 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.840 form not to show judgment, not to sit there and 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.720 if I'm interviewing you just sort of rolling my eyes. 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.200 If you talk about something and not be judgmental, if 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:34.960 anyone's going to open up to you, you can't sit 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.000 there being judgmental with your arms crossed and giving them attitude. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.640 It's about having a conversation and letting them because one 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.840 thing I found in the interview room is that people 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:47.920 often say, how do you get a confession out of someone? 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.000 Quite often, and we're not talking perhaps serial killers or 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.639 maybe serial killers, but quite often people want to unburden themselves. 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:58.840 They carry this guilt of a crime, and if I'm honest, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.760 what I'm is letting them unburden the pressure of carrying 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.440 this secret that's been troubling them for a long time, 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.200 and that often pays dividends in the interview room. 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.960 Yeah, Like, there's lots of examples of serial killers, particularly 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.000