Speaker 1: Cat Devinie has certainly lived a life. I've never met
Speaker 1: anyone as open and sure of herself as dev She
Speaker 1: blazes her own trail unapologetically, which is a very exciting
Speaker 1: energy to be around. Time with Cath feels dangerous and full.
Speaker 1: Creativity is her life force. And she wears so many
Speaker 1: hats she could probably use a.
Speaker 2: Few more heads.
Speaker 1: Writer, comedian, mother, lover, bipolar, dyslexic ADHD, cat lover, feminist, entrepreneur, cyclist,
Speaker 1: marriage avoid atheist.
Speaker 2: The list goes on.
Speaker 1: Chrissy, casters, meet the irrepressible and unforgettable Cath, Devinie, and
Speaker 1: hot and hot. I was going to say any more
Speaker 1: labels that I may may have forgotten.
Speaker 2: Actually, the most important label that I identify as I
Speaker 2: am Hoburg's fifth most popular milk. Now I had to
Speaker 2: pause for a seconds. Now I'm just going to again
Speaker 2: I am Coburg's fifth most popular milf, because I have
Speaker 2: heard rumors that I have just jumped up to fourth.
Speaker 2: But I don't want to get ahead of myself.
Speaker 3: Who's number one, two, three, And you know Claire.
Speaker 2: Bot It she's number one, right, of course, there's three
Speaker 2: other people who you won't know Melouise Walker, Genevieve Costigan
Speaker 2: and Bridget Costello, and that has me as fifth. But
Speaker 2: I'm always trying to eat my way up.
Speaker 1: Does Bridget Costello know that? Oh you may have usurped
Speaker 1: her in for number four?
Speaker 2: Well, who knows who it is? But I have heard
Speaker 2: that I'm on the way up with a bullet. But
Speaker 2: you know who knows?
Speaker 3: Yes, Clementine Ford live in Koburg.
Speaker 2: She has, but she doesn't now. Oh, okay, I was sixth.
Speaker 2: Then Jay got it, she's got it. Yeah, she's eaten
Speaker 2: her way like off that off that page of the Melways,
Speaker 2: there was a point where your melway's Yeah. I didn't
Speaker 2: know that that was a Melbourne word. I just thought
Speaker 2: all street directories were called melways. They're not, they're not.
Speaker 3: And all there's a UbD, there's a great grease.
Speaker 2: All flavored milk was called big em. Anywhere in the
Speaker 2: world you could just walk in and get a chocolate breagam.
Speaker 2: I mean, we just these kind of things. Have you
Speaker 2: seen those maps in Australia that show a lot of
Speaker 2: our terms and how they changed depending on where you
Speaker 2: are on the wold? Yes, well, in the world meaning Australia,
Speaker 2: so bathers. Yes, hogs swimmers Cozzi so bathers is one
Speaker 2: of the words that changes potato cake potato cake. Some
Speaker 2: people call them like your potato scallop. I know, it's
Speaker 2: like potato fritter.
Speaker 3: Yes, you knew that, Yes I did know that.
Speaker 2: How have you not told people?
Speaker 1: Because potato cakes slash scallops slash fritters. Wherever you were
Speaker 1: listening from is my favorite food of all time? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: my absolute favorite, hands down. I turned fifty recently and
Speaker 1: work organized a birthday cake for me, which was just
Speaker 1: a pile of three hundred potato cakes.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's love.
Speaker 2: It is depending on how good they are.
Speaker 3: That were excellent, but there is a huge.
Speaker 2: Spectrum of quality of potato cakes. I agree that there's
Speaker 2: not just one potato cake.
Speaker 1: The great thing about a potato cake is often they
Speaker 1: do this miraculous thing where they multiply without you asking.
Speaker 2: Oh I love.
Speaker 1: I think I love that the most about them, apart
Speaker 1: from the salty crispiness. I love that if you order two,
Speaker 1: you're getting three, and you never not get three.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's right.
Speaker 3: Always. It's like an unspoken rule.
Speaker 2: It's a kind of a generosity, love language. Yes, so
Speaker 2: potato cakes bathers the middy schooner pot situation. But another
Speaker 2: one that might blow your mind, but you can't. You're
Speaker 2: across everything, Chris is one you are, You're quite the devil.
Speaker 3: No, you might direct trick me here.
Speaker 2: So if you go to Bunnings and you are hungry,
Speaker 2: what do you buy there?
Speaker 3: With sausage in bread?
Speaker 2: Right? But in other parts of Australia that's not what
Speaker 2: you call it.
Speaker 3: No, they call it a sausage sandwich.
Speaker 2: They also call it a sausage sizzle. Like they call
Speaker 2: that not like we are going to a sausage sizzle
Speaker 2: and we are going to have a sausage bread. They
Speaker 2: will call that going. Do you want a sausage sizzle?
Speaker 1: No, that's wrong though. The sausage sizzle is the destination.
Speaker 2: God. If you think that's wrong, way till what I'm
Speaker 2: gonna say next? Aha, you here already someplace in Australia
Speaker 2: call it a hot dog?
Speaker 3: What boiled? It's a frank in a roll.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I think you should tell those people?
Speaker 2: I think we get in a car, we charter a plane,
Speaker 2: and we get and we tell them how wrong they.
Speaker 1: Are I feel like we're really isolating a lot of
Speaker 1: people right now.
Speaker 3: People get We said, hey.
Speaker 2: Before I came on here, I said, is there anything
Speaker 2: I can't say? But I didn't know. I went through
Speaker 2: some things that have gotten journalists sacked recently, broadcasters canceled.
Speaker 2: She said anything anything, say whatever you want.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you were going to go into
Speaker 1: sausages and bread. Okay, now you said recently. I follow
Speaker 1: your Instagram religiously. I love you on it, and please
Speaker 1: follow kath Devinie on Instagram.
Speaker 3: She's a genius. And I want to talk to you
Speaker 3: about this Panatona situation.
Speaker 2: Of course you do.
Speaker 1: Have you been banned from your local supermarket over crimes
Speaker 1: to Panatona?
Speaker 2: It's unclear, and I have written to head off as
Speaker 2: to find out, because there was a quite an unhinged
Speaker 2: manager who kind of was saying, if you video again,
Speaker 2: it's trespassing the cops in your band. And also I
Speaker 2: kept asking questions, asked responding to him saying, do you
Speaker 2: know how many phone calls we've got? I've said know
Speaker 2: how many? So I'm not entirely sure, but I think
Speaker 2: we need to back up and explain to people. I
Speaker 2: agree in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: Catherine noticed at her local IgA that even after Christmas,
Speaker 1: the panatona had not been discounted.
Speaker 2: Right now, there's some background to this. So firstly, panatona
Speaker 2: is shit, and anyone who says it's not is lying.
Speaker 3: I love panatona. I love it.
Speaker 2: Do you eat it all year? No?
Speaker 3: I eat it just for Christmas?
Speaker 2: If you loved it, wouldn't you do it a little
Speaker 2: bit more?
Speaker 3: You can't get it all year. It's like saying I
Speaker 3: like hot cross buns all the time. I would, but
Speaker 3: you can't get them in Bruntwick.
Speaker 2: You can because there's always regifting to be done. So
Speaker 2: I am anti panaton because I think it's overrated. It
Speaker 2: doesn't know whether it's like a cake or a bread.
Speaker 2: It's a stale past of confusion. Should be right up
Speaker 2: your alley or embraced. Yeah, it's like, I'm pretty progressive, chrissy.
Speaker 2: I think that that is well known and that's how
Speaker 2: people see me. But I'm sorry, panatony. Make up your
Speaker 2: mind and anything that can last in a tin for
Speaker 2: like twenty four forty eight months and look exactly the same,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm not doing it. That is unusual. I
Speaker 2: respect my body too much. We've all seen that stuff
Speaker 2: with like the Macas living. Yes, I love Maccas as
Speaker 2: much as the next person, but Macas are not pretending
Speaker 2: to be anything other than what they are, whereas Panatony
Speaker 2: is wrapped up. It's gotta fucking sell a phane and
Speaker 2: a tin and a bow.
Speaker 3: It's a celebratory bread.
Speaker 2: I think I've got a bit more right to talk
Speaker 2: about this than you because my children are half Sicilian,
Speaker 2: so I am sexually transmitted Italian. But what you're doing
Speaker 2: is racism towards me, and I am triggered and I'm
Speaker 2: going to have to go to my safe space. And
Speaker 2: you are canceled, all right, But because I've signed a contract,
Speaker 2: we will continue. Thank you for your time, Catherine. Everything
Speaker 2: Panatwani sucks, right, but my local IgA does not suck.
Speaker 2: And my local ij in Brunswick is really well known
Speaker 2: for reading the room, really well known. It pivots its swerves.
Speaker 2: It's got the fair trade, the African food, the gluten free,
Speaker 2: the vegan, it's got everything you want. And they just
Speaker 2: they because the area is a melting pot and it's
Speaker 2: constantly melting and swirling and it just changes you hear
Speaker 2: about things. Yeah, you hear about things and suddenly it's there.
Speaker 2: It's like I see something on Instagram, but it's almost
Speaker 2: like IJ goes into my brain and goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: there's that cookie dough that comes from that little Adelaid
Speaker 2: bakery and there it is, there, it is. So I
Speaker 2: was quite surprised. I mean also considering the cost of living. Right,
Speaker 2: So the cost of living is binding everyone, including wealthy people,
Speaker 2: which I am not, but you are right, and everybody
Speaker 2: seems to be very aware of it. And I am
Speaker 2: anti Christmas. I'm a conscientious objector of Christmas. Right, But
Speaker 2: I was in my local IgA on Christmas Eve and
Speaker 2: I saw this wall of panatona right that Elon Musk
Speaker 2: could see from however far up his ass he lives, right,
Speaker 2: and there were Dolce and Gabbana Panatoni for ninety five dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah right now, that is that's not the vibe of
Speaker 2: the Brunswick IgM not. And this is the thing. But
Speaker 2: if you cannot wait to hear you what the fuck
Speaker 2: you're going to say to phinished.
Speaker 1: Tins, Just say so, you've walked in, you've seen that,
Speaker 1: and that's your immediate reaction. Me as a Panatoni lover
Speaker 1: also walks into the supermarket. I see that and I
Speaker 1: think it's Christmas Eve. Never pay retail that's going to
Speaker 1: be at least half price in two days. My desire
Speaker 1: for panatono, which is great, can wait forty eight hours
Speaker 1: and save fifty dollars.
Speaker 2: And so I was, I thought, I can't wait to
Speaker 2: pop in on Boxing Day and see how much peez
Speaker 2: fifty ten dollars a ten you know, so it's in
Speaker 2: a good changer banatin which a lot of people love
Speaker 2: if you're into that kind of thing. And it was
Speaker 2: ninety five dollars for five hundred grams. Okay, so go
Speaker 2: with me, people. Numbers not my big skill, not great
Speaker 2: on mass, but even I know that makes it that
Speaker 2: Panatony one hundred and ninety dollars a kilo. Yes, now
Speaker 2: you like Panatonic, you would still have to come on
Speaker 2: board with the idea that is expensive. That is outrageous. Exactly,
Speaker 2: it's a crime. It's I shouldn't be banned from the IDA.
Speaker 2: Those fucking Panatonis should be banned because that's the crime.
Speaker 2: So you we are the victims.
Speaker 1: You've been going back to the supermarket religiously.
Speaker 2: And I just like it, just keep staying there. There were
Speaker 2: some other ones too that were very expensive, and I thought,
Speaker 2: this is so interesting that they are making this choice.
Speaker 2: Front of guy. Ja is very famous for its manager specials,
Speaker 2: very famous, like you just go, how can they even?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So I on Boxing day went and they were still hot,
Speaker 2: they were not marked down, and I just made this
Speaker 2: little Instagram thing which started with look, I know I
Speaker 2: really should get alive, right, But I started to follow
Speaker 2: this and I started to go in and count and
Speaker 2: take footage, see how many counting these platonics about whether
Speaker 2: yeah there's one gone today? And then there was like
Speaker 2: a couple of days after Christmas and people were going,
Speaker 2: oh they just they're hanging out for Orthodox Christmas. Oh
Speaker 2: they're just hanging on to them for EASTA And it's
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no, no, look around, look around at
Speaker 2: the managers specials. Here. All of the Christmas stuff is
Speaker 2: marked down, but not those planetonics.
Speaker 1: When was the last time you checked and nobody had
Speaker 1: bought any? And what was the total that you saw?
Speaker 2: Last time? Was two days ago? I wasn't in there.
Speaker 2: Somebody sent me a photograph because I'm waiting for clarification,
Speaker 2: I have great respect and deep respect for my IgA,
Speaker 2: of course not. I don't believe in any other rules.
Speaker 2: So I don't wear a helmet when I ride a bike,
Speaker 2: which is frequently, and I dry clean only can suck whatever, Yes,
Speaker 2: that can suck any part of me that they like. Sure,
Speaker 2: but I was sent a message said they're still six.
Speaker 2: You know what they did at one point, because they
Speaker 2: knew I was videoing, they moved them into half half,
Speaker 2: like the western side of the Delhi counter and the
Speaker 2: eastern side to make me think, I go, oh my god,
Speaker 2: three have gone. There's only three left. And then I
Speaker 2: spied through the bread there was on the other So
Speaker 2: all over the world was following this panatonous right, So
Speaker 2: we had people in the UK, Canada, Tokyo recordings from Paris,
Speaker 2: from Switzerland, the most expensive food haul in the world
Speaker 2: had marked them all down. My favorites were someone in
Speaker 2: ol Salvador sent me some video and there was a
Speaker 2: woman saying, there's a bloke in a New South Wales
Speaker 2: lockup who is following this and passing on all of
Speaker 2: these updates to fifty inmates. They eat a lot of shit.
Speaker 2: But even they agreed that panatoni sucks. So they are
Speaker 2: still there and now it's a game on and at
Speaker 2: last count there were six. Six hasn't and it hasn't
Speaker 2: changed for over if they're still like that now eight
Speaker 2: days now, I am not saying that the panatonos at
Speaker 2: our ijas stale. I'm saying all panatonos are stale, and
Speaker 2: that is why some people love them.
Speaker 3: Cath Devine, Oh my god, I'm nose tending. Oh my god,
Speaker 3: I present to you.
Speaker 1: A panatoni from at the IgA. There are only five there.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: You went there. I went there.
Speaker 1: You never did, and I have purchased one at full price,
Speaker 1: still not not I discounted what a ninety five dollar panetona?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: How do you feel with it in your hands? Do
Speaker 1: you feel like this is somehow a wrinkle in time?
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's changed the course of how
Speaker 1: things should have been?
Speaker 2: I just feel I feel like one of those people
Speaker 2: on Instagram that gets a puppy. I just want to
Speaker 2: that they start crying. But I just like, I suddenly
Speaker 2: feel I understand why people buy it.
Speaker 1: Do you want to crack it open and have a
Speaker 1: bit and see if it's How can we not?
Speaker 3: I think we must. Okay, all right, I feel like
Speaker 3: we must.
Speaker 2: You went there? You went there? Were you afraid you
Speaker 2: might see me? Can I tell you?
Speaker 3: And I filmed it, Kath and the woman saw me
Speaker 3: buying this and saw me filming, and she said, this
Speaker 3: has gone too far? Yes, And I was frightened.
Speaker 2: Oh were you?
Speaker 3: I was? I thought I was just doing a funny gag, Chrissy.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine if you and I walked into that?
Speaker 2: I gap, I get the slow motion, the yeah, dark glasses.
Speaker 2: It's just like everyone would just be like, oh, I
Speaker 2: mean it would be fair.
Speaker 1: I've taken the lid off the tin, and I have
Speaker 1: to say, at first sights very disappointed with the size
Speaker 1: of the punatona inside the big tin.
Speaker 2: As again, I told you that is five hundred grams.
Speaker 2: That is two cups. That doesn't seem right. But you know,
Speaker 2: oh mate, do you love PLANATONI or not? Make up
Speaker 2: your mind? Mate, Make I do your mind?
Speaker 1: I do if I can bloody open it? How okay,
Speaker 1: I've been doing it wrong.
Speaker 2: So there's there's a ribbon and there's a tin.
Speaker 3: This is why it's still fresh for two years.
Speaker 2: Hey, do you know what you want to look? Closer,
Speaker 2: because I'll tell you what I have. I don't even
Speaker 2: have to look at this to know. I can tell
Speaker 2: you what that date says without looking thirty first of
Speaker 2: March twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3: I know we better get cracking on this. So people
Speaker 3: said they might be holding out.
Speaker 2: First time I get it open, it'll be June. They
Speaker 2: said they might be holding out for Easter. But Easter
Speaker 2: is the thirty first of March twenty twenty four. Who
Speaker 2: would gift You can't even regift a punaton if you
Speaker 2: give it to somebody on Easter Sunday. God, it smells
Speaker 2: so good.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean normally it comes with a little sachet
Speaker 1: of icing sugar, doesn't You would have thought that nearly
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars would have got your thatsh.
Speaker 2: But look look at the instructions. How much that no
Speaker 2: sashet pilet but like a diy at.
Speaker 1: The Oh my god, it's really soft. I'm salivating. Are
Speaker 1: you going to eat some of this? Or are you
Speaker 1: really like anti?
Speaker 2: I'm looking in the back and I'm looking for like,
Speaker 2: you know, hacks, workarounds, instructions. Oh my god, Okay, can
Speaker 2: we just I'm gonna have I will eat some right, Okay,
Speaker 2: but can you just I'd like it on the go, okay,
Speaker 2: as a PANATONI lover, because you are comparing to other things,
Speaker 2: whereas I'm just preferring I am comparing it with I
Speaker 2: think this is shit. Okay.
Speaker 1: It is moist, Okay, it is moister than usual. It
Speaker 1: is moist than the fruit is of a much better
Speaker 1: quality than usual.
Speaker 2: Well, enjoy it because it's fifteen bucks a mouthful. Anyway,
Speaker 2: kept going.
Speaker 1: It is dense and yet still light, and it's the
Speaker 1: best panatona I've ever had.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm going to get.
Speaker 2: You a really here that hush listeners like there was
Speaker 2: from me, a sharp intake of breath. Oh, and.
Speaker 3: I'm handing you a piece of panatona.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: If you don't like men with you, okay, if you
Speaker 3: don't love this, you're even mental than I thought.
Speaker 2: That would. That's that's quite a challenge, Okay, I do
Speaker 2: The only thing I do is honesty. So I will
Speaker 2: give you honesty. If I look at your eyes about
Speaker 2: to like pop out of your head and go in
Speaker 2: that tin.
Speaker 3: I love panatona, and that is the best I've ever had.
Speaker 2: Now that is a very moist light flavorsome, and normally
Speaker 2: in the Panotoni situation, often there is a feeling of
Speaker 2: kind of mashed insects. Yeah they're not there. No, this
Speaker 2: is absolutely dried, gently dried fruit and thought out. Not
Speaker 2: just like what have we got left from last year,
Speaker 2: let's just chuck that in so use the fuck they're
Speaker 2: gonna regift it anyway.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 1: It's buttery and briosh like. It's good, isn't it, Dev?
Speaker 1: That is good.
Speaker 2: If I was not a punt on a hater, I
Speaker 2: would like this, but I wouldn't pay full price for it.
Speaker 1: Well, lucky for you, I paid full price for it,
Speaker 1: and you get to enjoy the spoils.
Speaker 2: You know, if I've got this in my house, people
Speaker 2: will think I've won toxotto or I'm like Shag and
Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos or something going. Oh well, Dev, you know,
Speaker 2: we all went a bit crazy during lockdown, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: even people who thought, oh no, no, we were good
Speaker 2: because we didn't have little kids and we're pretty happy
Speaker 2: we've got a big house with No. I was not good.
Speaker 2: Everybody went a bit crazy during lockdown, of course, and
Speaker 2: I want to ask about your crazy. But like a
Speaker 2: lot of people really missed their beauticians and their hairdressers
Speaker 2: because they had hair where they didn't want it. The
Speaker 2: hair that they had wasn't doing the right thing. The
Speaker 2: eyebrows weren't sitting the right way there, eyelacios weren't extended
Speaker 2: the way they liked to see themselves in a mirror,
Speaker 2: and go, I know that person. So when I say
Speaker 2: we all went a bit mad during lockdown, Chrissy Swan
Speaker 2: cough up the pope confess.
Speaker 1: It was the hardest time of my life. Really out question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't cope with any element of it.
Speaker 2: So what comes to mind when it all happened? What
Speaker 2: was it? Was it?
Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it for the first week.
Speaker 3: I thought, this is nice.
Speaker 2: What part What did you enjoy the first week? Do
Speaker 2: you think?
Speaker 1: I think the endless time and having nothing to do
Speaker 1: that was lovely because I'm a busy person and busy
Speaker 1: everyone around me is a busy person, So that was nice.
Speaker 1: And then it absolutely was not nice because I had
Speaker 1: to homeschool my kids, which.
Speaker 2: And their cunts. Like if they were nice, if they
Speaker 2: were smart, if they were pleasant, that's one thing, but
Speaker 2: what they are?
Speaker 3: All those things I am not a teacher.
Speaker 2: I don't that really surprises me, because you're a communicator,
Speaker 2: you're imaginative.
Speaker 3: I don't know people anything.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything that I could pass on, apart
Speaker 1: from the important stuff like so you know how to
Speaker 1: have a laugh and how to cook and good egg
Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff. I spent a fortunate
Speaker 1: office works with like you know, building blocks and kits
Speaker 1: and wipe off things.
Speaker 3: And then I realized, I can't do this.
Speaker 2: I've got to go to Bunnings or office works. Buddings
Speaker 2: is clothes, We're off your office work stationary power of stationery.
Speaker 3: And I still couldn't do it.
Speaker 1: And then my kids were feeling like they were stupid
Speaker 1: and I couldn't do it. And then I had to
Speaker 1: turn up every morning and broadcast on radio. And because
Speaker 1: I'm a feeler and I take on everyone's feeling my
Speaker 1: town Melo and which was the most suffering during in the.
Speaker 3: World, actually, really it really was.
Speaker 1: I felt the pain and distress of everybody in this city,
Speaker 1: and I had to be better than them when I
Speaker 1: was not better than them. And in terms of my
Speaker 1: spirit and my mood and my mental state, for all
Speaker 1: those hours a day, I had to pretend like everything
Speaker 1: was okay, and it was not okay at a wall
Speaker 1: and it just went on for so long and then
Speaker 1: it stopped and it started and there was no routine,
Speaker 1: and I really felt like I was losing my mind.
Speaker 2: And that was when I started to walk.
Speaker 1: So actually I'm grateful for lockdown because I had to
Speaker 1: get out of the house somehow and away from all
Speaker 1: my failings as a teacher and a mother and all
Speaker 1: of that. I had to get away from it, and
Speaker 1: so I started to walk, and that has changed my life.
Speaker 1: So it's been great in one way, but it was
Speaker 1: a very very bad time feel that.
Speaker 2: In Melbourne at least there was the lockdown and the
Speaker 2: COVID stuff, and then after it was over, we were
Speaker 2: all just very gun shy and even going into groups
Speaker 2: of people and not wearing masks. And it took us
Speaker 2: a while to get back in and no one kind
Speaker 2: of talked about it, like those guys that come back
Speaker 2: from the walk going up Pop never talked about. But
Speaker 2: then there was this point a few months later, maybe
Speaker 2: six months later, that I heard people say it was
Speaker 2: almost no one said it, and then within a week
Speaker 2: almost everybody just gave me this little could deal with
Speaker 2: a bloody lockdown around it. Yeah, because we got used
Speaker 2: to lockdown being part of like a weekend, you know,
Speaker 2: or full holidays or summer, and we missed it. But
Speaker 2: I've noticed recently that people are talking about that COVID
Speaker 2: time in a real feeling that it's behind them. Yes,
Speaker 2: And I remember during lockdown, I did.
Speaker 3: Cock lockdown cock lockdown.
Speaker 2: No, there was something that I was involved in online
Speaker 2: where we were all putting up nudes on Instagram and
Speaker 2: we were seeing how long it took for the for
Speaker 2: the accounts to go down haha. And it was set
Speaker 2: up by this fantastic chiller and we were putting emojis
Speaker 2: on ourselves and it was a lot of fun. So
Speaker 2: there was a lot of fun going on. One of
Speaker 2: the things that I did during lockdown is I delivered
Speaker 2: these cute little sweets and people loved them. It was
Speaker 2: just something fun that was in their letterbox. So I
Speaker 2: got someone to make them and I would go and
Speaker 2: pick them up and I would deliver them. So I
Speaker 2: was wearing my mask and I was on my bike
Speaker 2: and I would go and deliver these sweets and I
Speaker 2: dropped them with people's letterbox and they were just like
Speaker 2: a fun thing. Do you remember Loon Croissants were doing right?
Speaker 2: And next week we'll be delivering to Morabit on Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Clayton on Friday, and it'll be like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: oh my god, my god. I became this thing. I
Speaker 2: only had two hundred at a time, and I dropped
Speaker 2: them with people's letter boxes. Two hundred, yeah, but fifty here,
Speaker 2: fifty that you know, you were allowed to exercise. I
Speaker 2: had my mask on and it was something I could do.
Speaker 2: It was a way to communicate with yeah, rather I
Speaker 2: get it. So I had got to some really good
Speaker 2: friends of mine's places and I got into a really
Speaker 2: good friend of mine's place, two people and I needed
Speaker 2: to go to the toilet because I'd been on the
Speaker 2: bike for a while. And I went in. I said, look,
Speaker 2: I need to go to the toilet, like it was
Speaker 2: a necessary thing. We'd all been fully vaccinated. And I
Speaker 2: went in and I came out, and they said, just
Speaker 2: take the mask off, sit down and have a cup
Speaker 2: of tea, because you know, we've infected each other already
Speaker 2: with whatever we may or may not have. And it
Speaker 2: was so wonderful to be with people in the house
Speaker 2: and talking, and so my mate Tracy said to her
Speaker 2: partner Joanne, Joanne, tell dev Kelly's story that she told you.
Speaker 2: So there's a woman called Kelly, and I think she
Speaker 2: lived in Thornberry. So she was in her house and
Speaker 2: her Jack Russell came in the back of the house
Speaker 2: through the dog flab with a dead white rabbit in
Speaker 2: its mouth, covered in and mud, shaking it the way
Speaker 2: dogs do. And she knew who the rabbit was. She
Speaker 2: lives in a single front of terrace. It's the people
Speaker 2: next door have a rabbit on there, you know, in
Speaker 2: the hush free range. So she gets the rabbit out
Speaker 2: of the dog's mouth and she shampoos it and addish
Speaker 2: yes and conditions it. And I don't know whether she
Speaker 2: conditions it that could have been met. She shampoos it,
Speaker 2: she washes the rabbit, she dries it with her hair
Speaker 2: dry as oh, she's officially lost her mind. And she
Speaker 2: creeps out the front and over her fence and puts
Speaker 2: it in the hutch which is on the front veranda.
Speaker 2: So she goes back into the house and she's like
Speaker 2: and she's sitting there and remember how quiet was and
Speaker 2: she hears about forty five minutes later, the neighbor's coming
Speaker 2: out screaming, screaming. So she comes out wrapping herself in
Speaker 2: a dressing gown with her mug, going, what's happened, what's happened?
Speaker 2: And they're like, oh my god, our rabbit died yesterday
Speaker 2: and we buried it in the backyard and now it's
Speaker 2: back in the hutch. You're joking, I am not, I
Speaker 2: am not, and she's ha ha ha, my god, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, are you sure, and then kind of recoils
Speaker 2: into the house.
Speaker 3: Did she ever tell them?
Speaker 2: No? But they probably might know. Now you are the
Speaker 2: worst for doing that, and I am the worst for
Speaker 2: telling my story because they are going to find out.
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about Heyday and rock Bottom. Yes,
Speaker 1: I have done your Gunner's masterclass and I loved it.
Speaker 1: And if you are thinking about writing something, try and
Speaker 1: get into a Gunner master classes.
Speaker 2: I do retreats in Victoria and also in Parents Magical,
Speaker 2: But the one that I really love is it's the
Speaker 2: ninety minute online right here, right now, which is really
Speaker 2: great because you can do the zoom with us at
Speaker 2: the time, or you can keep them in your fold
Speaker 2: up because you get a recording and a lot of
Speaker 2: people just go yes. Sometimes I know I want to
Speaker 2: write and I need I just need some stimulus. So yes,
Speaker 2: Heyday and rock Bottom.
Speaker 1: Heyday and rock Bottom are two of the greatest thought
Speaker 1: starters I've ever because I love to write and I
Speaker 1: want to write again, but I don't really have the
Speaker 1: mental real estate at the moment for it.
Speaker 2: But I still dream. Are there any ideas? Are there
Speaker 2: things that just kind of like almost intrusive thoughts were
Speaker 2: going with that, They're knocking, going, hey, hang on.
Speaker 1: They are, and then they get skittled by I've got
Speaker 1: to get to the IJA and buy devi panatone. So
Speaker 1: it's not my time at the moment. But speaking of
Speaker 1: Heyday and rock Bottom, have you you've obviously experienced a
Speaker 1: Heyday or maybe you're experiencing it now, And with regard
Speaker 1: to rock Bottom, have you experienced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think And I've written about this in
Speaker 2: a lot of depth in my memoir Toue North, and
Speaker 2: I've always been very open about it. So I'm bipolar,
Speaker 2: but I've also I suffered a lot of trauma and
Speaker 2: kind of a byla ah. So bipolar is basically it.
Speaker 1: Used to be called something else manic depression. Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've got a great psychiatrist. So all my life, I've
Speaker 1: thought I've had it, like my great grandmother had it.
Speaker 1: My cousin Kate died by suicide.
Speaker 2: We were very close. There was only three months difference
Speaker 2: in age, and I've always thought I had it, and
Speaker 2: any mental health professional that I dealt with said, you
Speaker 2: can't have it. You're too productive. You've never been medicated,
Speaker 2: you've never been hospitalized, you've never missed a deadline, you've
Speaker 2: never canceled a gig. So this sum swings back into lockdown.
Speaker 2: After lockdown, it was like November, and I don't know
Speaker 2: whether you remember, but we had blue skies for weeks
Speaker 2: and weeks. So suddenly I rode my bike where I
Speaker 2: used to almost all the cafes and all of the
Speaker 2: life in our area apart from the supermarkets and where
Speaker 2: you've got vaccinations. It kind of felt boarded up or
Speaker 2: almost like a veil over it, and it was like
Speaker 2: everything was just open.
Speaker 1: You know a scene from those like West Side Story
Speaker 1: when everyone's throwing, And.
Speaker 2: During that time, I thought I was just like really
Speaker 2: just everybody was so excited. We were out and about,
Speaker 2: we were going into nurseries and buying plants, and you know,
Speaker 2: just we were excited. And a lot of people have
Speaker 2: more money than usual because of job keeper, but also
Speaker 2: because they hadn't been spending money on travel and restaurants holidays.
Speaker 2: There was more money than usual. So so yeah, I
Speaker 2: was in a very heightened state. And I didn't realize
Speaker 2: I hadn't really been sleeping. But I've got a really
Speaker 2: good psychologist who I've dealt with for three years. And
Speaker 2: it's only because she could she had been observing me
Speaker 2: for that long that she said, you have bipolar. And
Speaker 2: I was like, fucking as I have been saying so
Speaker 2: according to my very good psychiot. So at that point
Speaker 2: it was like, okay, well we need to have a
Speaker 2: psychiatrist diagnose you. And I know enough about it to
Speaker 2: talk to my GP, and I said, you know, in
Speaker 2: the meantime, can we try Sarah Kull, which is an
Speaker 2: anti psychotic. It's a very basic. It's like the panadol
Speaker 2: of if you go, if you have too many if
Speaker 2: you have if you got a like a music festival,
Speaker 2: have too many disco biscuits and start going and having
Speaker 2: a few beers with Merlin, and if they have to
Speaker 2: put you in the short stay at a hospital. They'll
Speaker 2: give you Sarah call. Because it's an antipsychotic, so it
Speaker 2: will turn off anything that is a psychopharmaceutical response to
Speaker 2: LSD or any kind of PingER, so it means I'm
Speaker 2: saying that I do. So it's just it's an imbalance
Speaker 2: in your emotions. So I always just assumed it was genetic.
Speaker 2: But my psychiatrist says that I love the way that
Speaker 2: he thinks. He says he thinks it's four different at
Speaker 2: least fo different reasons you can get it. It can
Speaker 2: be chemical, it can be brain structure, it can be genetic,
Speaker 2: and it can be a response to childhood forumaent abuse.
Speaker 2: So I don't know what mine is, but I do
Speaker 2: have a genetic component. But I am on two tiny
Speaker 2: doses of two different drugs. Drugs or a drug called Seracle,
Speaker 2: which is an antipsychotic of tiny dose which helps me
Speaker 2: have a really good sleep, but over time it also
Speaker 2: works as a mood stabilizer as well, So it's tiny.
Speaker 2: But the other drug that I'm on, and we didn't
Speaker 2: try any other drugs. It took us a little while,
Speaker 2: but we decided these were the best ones. To go
Speaker 2: with is a drug called lamatrogene. It's also known as lamigdal,
Speaker 2: which is an anti epileptic drug. So we don't really
Speaker 2: know how psychopharmaceuticals work. We just know that some of
Speaker 2: them work. So I think for me, so I haven't
Speaker 2: since I've been medicated, which is a couple of years,
Speaker 2: I haven't had really any swings out of what they
Speaker 2: call the window of tolerance. So the window of tolerance
Speaker 2: is where we like to we should be.
Speaker 1: Living before you were medicated. What would a swing out
Speaker 1: of that window?
Speaker 2: So bipolar depression is. It was unusual for me because
Speaker 2: I would say I've got depression, and it's just like
Speaker 2: we've got this idea of what depression is. But when
Speaker 2: you read into things, well not what we read into things,
Speaker 2: but when you read stuff about you know, bipolar depression
Speaker 2: is this absolute absence of any kind of dopamine or
Speaker 2: any kind of motivation. The best way I can describe
Speaker 2: what it's like living with bipolar and now I'm medicated,
Speaker 2: I don't have I live in the window of tolerance
Speaker 2: most of the time. Occasion I can feel myself flicking out,
Speaker 2: and I'll up my medication to pull me back. It's
Speaker 2: living in a state of normality for not as much
Speaker 2: time as is ideal or even kind of functional, and
Speaker 2: you spend a lot of your time feeling like you
Speaker 2: are in love or heartbroken. So if you look at
Speaker 2: the chemical profile bipolar, that's exactly what it looks like.
Speaker 3: So that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's difficult though, Like sometimes I go, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm not bipolar, but this is I'm ADHD and have
Speaker 2: a traumatic childhood And that's how it has presented itself
Speaker 2: because we can't do a blood test for things. No,
Speaker 2: of course not.
Speaker 1: But I think it's interesting that there's a long process
Speaker 1: to get an official diagnosis. And most people I know
Speaker 1: that have been diagnosed recently with ADHD or bipolar or
Speaker 1: anything else, or having always known it themselves, yeah, or
Speaker 1: have known it recently because you know yourself, and so
Speaker 1: it's almost like a retrospective diagnosis. They're going to a
Speaker 1: professional saying, I need a diagnosis for ADHD.
Speaker 3: I know I have it, How do I get on
Speaker 3: with my life?
Speaker 2: But the thing is, when you're so used to just
Speaker 2: being you and never gating your world, and you know,
Speaker 2: people like you and I are really privileged. We've been
Speaker 2: able to set up our world to work for us
Speaker 2: because we're not strapped into a corporation or a religion
Speaker 2: or a bureaucracy or anything like that. So it's been
Speaker 2: easy for us. So if you are privileged like we are,
Speaker 2: we've been able to set up our lives so that
Speaker 2: we can adapt to our neurospiciness or whatever. So it's
Speaker 2: harder to see. So if I was, you know, working
Speaker 2: as a teacher and having to turn up at certain
Speaker 2: times and do certain things and be emotionally capable to
Speaker 2: be able to step up, and if you have always
Speaker 2: coped because my coping mechanism I don't really drink or
Speaker 2: anything like that. My coping mechanism is coping, it becomes
Speaker 2: harder to spot. So it's not just having something like
Speaker 2: whether it's dyslexia or whether it's ADHD, or whether it's
Speaker 2: autism or whether it's bipolar. It's not it's the person
Speaker 2: you are. It's the other personality traits that you have.
Speaker 2: It's the it's the advantages you have, it's the era
Speaker 2: you live in, Like look at the era that we
Speaker 2: live in.
Speaker 1: And I think for you also, your own resourcefulness has
Speaker 1: helped you a lot because even just before we started
Speaker 1: this podcast, we were talking that in common we share
Speaker 1: an inability to tell left and right, even after nearly
Speaker 1: one hundred years on this planet together.
Speaker 2: But we know up and down. But when up and
Speaker 2: down is fine.
Speaker 1: But every time someone says to me, can you move
Speaker 1: a bit to the left, I automatically check my right
Speaker 1: hand because I've got a lump from writing. I'm right
Speaker 1: handed person, and I know that once I hit that,
Speaker 1: I know that the opposite is left. And I've done
Speaker 1: that every day of my life that I can remember.
Speaker 1: And I think that you consciously or subconsciously have always
Speaker 1: been creating frameworks within your power to get through life
Speaker 1: and work out ways that can work for you.
Speaker 2: And that is exhausting, it is, And I mean, I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm sad for that young person who went
Speaker 2: through so much and had like I don't have any
Speaker 2: safety net now, but I'm a fifty five year old melf.
Speaker 2: But I didn't have any safety net then. And it's
Speaker 2: just like anything I wanted to, you know, wanted to
Speaker 2: go to the school camp in grade six, made macrime
Speaker 2: owls and saw them, you know, door to door, and
Speaker 2: you know, worked in a chemist every night after school
Speaker 2: and three hours Saturday morning. From the age of twelve
Speaker 2: to fifteen.
Speaker 1: Please read Catherine Devany's book True Author and Speech.
Speaker 2: There's one part of me that is so thrilled and
Speaker 2: relieve that I have always been self reliant and never
Speaker 2: like the most terrifying thing for me. Like people think
Speaker 2: that I'm really brave because they see me as taking
Speaker 2: risks or whatever. The most terrifying thing for me would
Speaker 2: be to have to financially rely on someone. That's the
Speaker 2: most terrifying thing for me. Or to be stuck in
Speaker 2: a job or a relationship that I couldn't get out
Speaker 2: of because I was trapped because of finances or the
Speaker 2: repercussions of social expectation, or.
Speaker 1: Which brings us back to the discussion we had earlier
Speaker 1: about sort of buying into society's messages about superannuation and
Speaker 1: you've got to do this, and you've got to do that.
Speaker 1: I think that the financial security of knowing that you
Speaker 1: have somewhere to sleep at night, that is what means
Speaker 1: the most to me.
Speaker 3: Oh, all of us is rubbish.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would not agree.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to buy black and Gold label frozen veggies whatever,
Speaker 1: eat an egg every three days. None of that bothers me.
Speaker 1: But the idea that I wouldn't have somewhere to sleep,
Speaker 1: that is my idea of hell.
Speaker 2: I remember you went through. There was some you know,
Speaker 2: we're taking a different direction, firing, sacking, acting redundancy at
Speaker 2: one point, and I remember talking to you on the
Speaker 2: fire I'd sent you a message or something, or you'd
Speaker 2: called me, and all you were talking about like I
Speaker 2: could see there would be other opportunities for you, and
Speaker 2: if it was me, you would go, well, yeah, of course,
Speaker 2: you know Dev is dev and this will happen. And
Speaker 2: I knew how loved and skilled and how adaptable you were.
Speaker 2: But all you spoke about on that phone call was
Speaker 2: your fear of losing the place that you slept. That
Speaker 2: was all you spoke about. I'm worried about losing I'm
Speaker 2: worried about losing the flat. Yea worried about And that
Speaker 2: was it. So I think it's outrageous what's happening with
Speaker 2: housing now. If we in any part of the world,
Speaker 2: but let's just say Australia, if we believe that citizens
Speaker 2: should be born and that when you know people live
Speaker 2: here and they are citizens of the country at the
Speaker 2: very least everybody should get a two bedroom flat apartment
Speaker 2: that is theirs default when you're eighteen. There's your keys, toilet, bathroom,
Speaker 2: bit of a view, bit of a garden, somewhere you
Speaker 2: can keep your cat. No problem. Why we don't do that.
Speaker 2: Don't underestimate the vested interests of people to have the
Speaker 2: have not so they can be the haves. Yes, so
Speaker 2: they can be so the unfortunate, so they can be
Speaker 2: the fortunate the disadvantage, so they can feel advantage. You know,
Speaker 2: I grew up in public housing, and I remember going
Speaker 2: why can't people who live in housing commissioned houses like
Speaker 2: us and everybody around us? Why can't we have pools?
Speaker 2: Why can't we have bedrooms of our own? Why am
Speaker 2: I sharing with my sisters? Why do we just have
Speaker 2: like open fire in the nineteen eighties when people have
Speaker 2: ducted heatings eating and it's just like oh yeah, But
Speaker 2: then you know people wouldn't work hard. It's like you're
Speaker 2: working hard, Yes, you're working hard. If those kind of
Speaker 2: extras and privileges came to people working hard, every woman
Speaker 2: in Africa would have a ten bedroom house with a
Speaker 2: triple garage and a pool. So it's about privilege. It's
Speaker 2: about class. It's about this illusion on.
Speaker 3: It's about believing the messages.
Speaker 2: Working and that being busy is some kind of sign
Speaker 2: of goodness or quality. You know, people will often say, oh,
Speaker 2: how are you dev busy, busy, always busy. I go,
Speaker 2: I am not busy at all. No, no, And they
Speaker 2: try to convince me that I am, and I go,
Speaker 2: I am not. Put a video on me like put
Speaker 2: like there's a cat that's got a GoPro on them
Speaker 2: that I watch all the time, saying mate, I like.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of skills. One of them is
Speaker 2: I have a really big bladder, so I don't wake
Speaker 2: up at night and I can stay in bed until
Speaker 2: eleven o'clock and not have to move. And the only
Speaker 2: reason that I move is because I'm hungry and I
Speaker 2: need to go and get sit down. The other reason
Speaker 2: I move in the morning is for coffee. It's just
Speaker 2: my I just I could sit there for everyone going.
Speaker 2: The stuff on Instagram and the books I write and
Speaker 2: all this stuff. This is not what I do around
Speaker 2: my job. I don't have a job. I have no boss.
Speaker 2: I have no job, I've no super I have no savings.
Speaker 2: I do as I please, and people will go, oh, so,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, what are you doing, toy, I'm
Speaker 2: going to get a you know this or that? And
Speaker 2: I say, oh, treating yourself, you know, going to have
Speaker 2: a couple.
Speaker 3: Hundred dollars pantin a.
Speaker 2: It's like, no, I'm not treating myself. My life. He's
Speaker 2: about meaning, connection, pleasure, and life is so short.
Speaker 3: I'll get there eventually. I want to do a round
Speaker 3: of celebrity.
Speaker 2: Solutions with you. That is why I rode across. I
Speaker 2: cannot wait. My favorite sentence is I need your advice.
Speaker 2: I am here for it.
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
Speaker 1: I've got some letters here from podcasters.
Speaker 2: This might go off because we are panatane fueled off
Speaker 2: our head.
Speaker 1: We have to be quick here. All right, here we go.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to throw some in your direction. Shoot
Speaker 1: the breeze has said, my brother has decided to get
Speaker 1: married in Italy for absolutely no reason. I have three
Speaker 1: kids under four and no money. Should I go?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. What I don't understand why do people need
Speaker 2: this stuff? Observed? Why they had to pretend they're the Kardashians.
Speaker 2: Why are they spending money that they don't have to
Speaker 2: buy things that they don't particularly want to impress people
Speaker 2: that they don't like. Absolutely not, I think say that again,
Speaker 2: buying things that they don't need with money they don't
Speaker 2: have to impress people that they don't like.
Speaker 3: That's weddings.
Speaker 2: That's it. That's it, and I'm anti marriage. But I
Speaker 2: wonder because I've been able to be the bell of
Speaker 2: the ball and the shiny st topic in the room
Speaker 2: as a writer in Onalian.
Speaker 3: Every day of your goddamn life.
Speaker 2: But I wonder whether if I hadn't, if I had
Speaker 2: gone a more conventional route, like i'd become a teacher,
Speaker 2: That's probably what I would have done. If I didn't
Speaker 2: do it, if I was more conservative outlook, maybe I
Speaker 2: would have wanted to have this planning day of being
Speaker 2: the princess for the day and just creating this thing
Speaker 2: for my friends and family. That is, as the Italians say,
Speaker 2: fucking bullshit. And I know because now I speak fluent
Speaker 2: Italian because I have eaten untina.
Speaker 3: I love the hand motion that went with that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm want to talk a little bit more about weddings.
Speaker 1: There's been something that I've disagreed with my whole life,
Speaker 1: and that is the saying that pops up up with
Speaker 1: monotonous regularity, from women that say these words out of
Speaker 1: their mouth. Oh, every girl dreams of her wedding day.
Speaker 1: Not for one second have I ever dreamt of my
Speaker 1: wedding day. Not when I was five and playing with barbies,
Speaker 1: not when I was watching Knots Landing and saw Valley
Speaker 1: You and get married. It's never crossed my mind about
Speaker 1: what I would wear and what we would eat and
Speaker 1: what the.
Speaker 3: Music would be. And I just want to know, am
Speaker 3: I strange woman?
Speaker 2: No? No, I find them. I find weddings really creepy.
Speaker 2: There's a really forced notion. I find weddings creepy. There's
Speaker 2: a forced feeling of we all have to act a
Speaker 2: certain way and they are. There is a kind of
Speaker 2: theatrical notion to it. Yeah, and the day of a
Speaker 2: wedding has kind of nothing to do with the marriage
Speaker 2: or the relationship or what it's like. I would be
Speaker 2: kind of more interested in celebrating people who had not
Speaker 2: even been together for a long time, but people who
Speaker 2: had of together and transformed. Maybe they're like, we've opened
Speaker 2: our relationship now and this is our third or we've
Speaker 2: gone through some ups and downs and we went to
Speaker 2: counseling to split up. Well, but we rediscovered parts of
Speaker 2: each other and we are making this amazing choice. I
Speaker 2: like the idea of people going got married really regret it,
Speaker 2: and if they say it to me, I say, why
Speaker 2: don't you get divorced? And they go, oh no, But
Speaker 2: I still love him and go no, no, stay together,
Speaker 2: stay together. Never. I never ever dreamt about my wedding day,
Speaker 2: but I do think I would look at wedding dresses
Speaker 2: and think, if I was to get married, that's what
Speaker 2: I would wear. But I would also go if I
Speaker 2: was going to the prom in America, that's what I
Speaker 2: would wear.
Speaker 3: What do you think of the idea of your father
Speaker 3: giving you away?
Speaker 2: Vaulting? It's revolting.
Speaker 3: The whole thing is revolting to me.
Speaker 2: But I think it's so we are playing the ball,
Speaker 2: not the or the bride. Here, what we've got to
Speaker 2: realize is how is that still such a sticky concept?
Speaker 2: Because so many people who are doing this have left
Speaker 2: aside a lot of social conditioning and expectations happily doing
Speaker 2: different kinds of things. But that the idea of monogamy
Speaker 2: and fidelity and marriage and romance and happily ever after,
Speaker 2: looking like if I say to people monogamy and longevity
Speaker 2: is no sign of the quality of a relationship. So
Speaker 2: many people just you see them get shocked. You know,
Speaker 2: it's the truth. If we lived to three hundred years old,
Speaker 2: we would not be fantasizing and glamorizing and worshiping the
Speaker 2: idea of the marriage is forever and love is forever.
Speaker 2: And though we would just go, well, that's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2: It's the same as we're in the same pair of
Speaker 2: gens your whole life, Like there's no choice. So I'm
Speaker 2: fifty five now and there's no choice that I would
Speaker 2: have made at twenty five that I would have been
Speaker 2: that still would have been a good fit for now. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But one of the other things that I think that
Speaker 2: people really got to realize because they'll say, oh, that
Speaker 2: really smart person, that really smart woman, that really smart,
Speaker 2: And it's something about the women, Like men don't want
Speaker 2: to get married. Men like to own women or have
Speaker 2: the feeling that they own women. Men like looking masculine
Speaker 2: by having someone.
Speaker 1: Who looks But men would also be buying into society's expectations,
Speaker 1: spectations you get you know, if you're a real man,
Speaker 1: then you have a woman.
Speaker 2: Yes, but there's not. If you think about bridal magazines,
Speaker 2: there's not groom magazines, and there's not the kind of
Speaker 2: conversation around it. It would be. The performative proposals are just awful,
Speaker 2: so revolting, and it's talk about expectation, talk about pressure,
Speaker 2: talk about manipulation. I do find it quite fascinating how
Speaker 2: sticky that is. And so when women, powerful women or
Speaker 2: women have options choose to do it, that actually makes
Speaker 2: it worse for you know, less advantage women, less privileged women,
Speaker 2: because they seen that as a sign of success, that
Speaker 2: that woman's got all the options in the world. But
Speaker 2: she's still choosing to do that, and she's still choosing
Speaker 2: to take her husband's name, be walked down the aisle
Speaker 2: by her father, and give her children the father's name.
Speaker 2: Like that's one of the big conversations. That's an even
Speaker 2: bigger conversation, let alone proposals. Like it's something like ninety
Speaker 2: eight percent of both women and men feel in heterosexual
Speaker 2: relationships that the man should propose. Both the women and
Speaker 2: the men feel.
Speaker 3: That they just I just don't understand the whole concept
Speaker 3: of a deva.
Speaker 2: And I love that people are questioning this. I just
Speaker 2: think Social media has been so great to because once
Speaker 2: upon time, people are going, oh, you're just saying that
Speaker 2: because you're bitter and you yeah, fire ye body or
Speaker 2: something like that, No would want to marry you anyway, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So it's so easy for people to minimize that. But
Speaker 2: there's a great nuanced discussion around the ideas of marriage,
Speaker 2: monogamy and zach Day, Father's Day, Mother's Day, Christmas, any
Speaker 2: of the Australia Day questions people that could thinking once
Speaker 2: upon a time, you'd just be dismissed as a wow,
Speaker 2: and you couldn't have the conversation, whereas people are going, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, there's so many ways that we can find
Speaker 2: a better path for ourselves that we live a more authentic,
Speaker 2: genuine or even if you just think about it and
Speaker 2: come to the conclusion that you do agree with it
Speaker 2: and it sits well with you, the thinking about it
Speaker 2: is what I think is valuable. I think so too,
Speaker 2: and like people will just like they will kind of
Speaker 2: you know, arc up if that conversation comes up and
Speaker 2: I go, but hang on, I have the confidence of
Speaker 2: my contradictions. I am meat, oh wear leather, I use
Speaker 2: fossil fuels, Yes, I don't have any problem going. Oh no,
Speaker 2: it's totally wrong, but I do it because I love bacon. Yes,
Speaker 2: I like to fly, and you know, I don't want
Speaker 2: to walk the whole way from here to a house
Speaker 2: down near the beach. I want to go in a
Speaker 2: car because I'm lazy and spoilt and that's what I
Speaker 2: like to do, or even just that's my choice.
Speaker 3: You're allowed.
Speaker 2: But as soon as marriage comes up, there are all
Speaker 2: of these. But the thing is, people make decisions emotionally
Speaker 2: and back them rationally. It is a clusterfuck of cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 2: But in all of the things that I do, and
Speaker 2: I know that some people consider them kind of a
Speaker 2: bit left to feel or progressive or radical whatever, I
Speaker 2: don't The thing that people have been most thrown by
Speaker 2: is me being a conscientious objector of Christmas. That is
Speaker 2: the most radical thing in a lot of people eyes
Speaker 2: that I've ever said or done. Really, yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2: It was, you know, like I've never married as well,
Speaker 2: who'd marry you? It's like, really, why't you marry? It's
Speaker 2: like I haven't found the right owner. But I just
Speaker 2: from the youngest age, I saw it as a trap.
Speaker 2: I just saw women, and it was the women that
Speaker 2: I was surrounded by. Did you tell your kids about?
Speaker 2: Did you do the whole Santa thing? Yeah? And I
Speaker 2: regret it. It's the only thing I regret with my
Speaker 2: kids is the Santa thing, the only thing I regret.
Speaker 3: I never really thought about it.
Speaker 1: And then I had my first son and Christmas rolled around,
Speaker 1: and I believe so deeply in being honest with my
Speaker 1: children about everything because I didn't really have that. So
Speaker 1: that's my conscientious change to how I parent from how
Speaker 1: I was parented. And it just felt like the most
Speaker 1: terrible lie. I could not look. I did it. Of
Speaker 1: Course I did it, because you're an asshole if you don't.
Speaker 1: But God when peg finally a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: last year, we're walking home from a taco stand in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and she said it was about two days
Speaker 1: before Christmas and she said to me, you're Santa, aren't you?
Speaker 3: And she's my last one and I went yes, and
Speaker 3: I'm the truth Fairy and on the Easter buddy, and
Speaker 3: I'm Jesus Christ and I'm sorry, I'm saying food.
Speaker 2: And I'm Elvis and I'm still alive.
Speaker 1: Ha ha, cap Debnie, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours.
Speaker 1: You're an absolute gem.
Speaker 2: So delighted that you asked me. I want to say
Speaker 2: one thing to you. Yes, I hope you know how
Speaker 2: loved you are. You are loved by so many. You
Speaker 2: make people feel connected, and you bring joy to people,
Speaker 2: and I have. I just don't think you have any
Speaker 2: idea how loved you are. And I want to thank you.
Speaker 3: You are so kind, loved you for so long.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love you too,