1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Adam, Welcome to the show. Are you an early riser? 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Are you a late worker? When does your body and 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: brain work optimally? There's three questions. 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, first off, thanks for having me. I tried to 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: stay to a schedule so to train my body to 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 2: get tired into wake up at the same time every day. 7 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 2: So I'm normally a ten to thirty in bed sort 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 2: of seven am out of it. I'm a guy. I 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: figure it's also easier just to make fewer decisions that 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: so instead of every day to figure out like ash 11 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: I to go to bed at now or another thirty 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: minutes or another hour, to just follow the same rule. 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: It works for me. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: You sound like Steve Jobs, except instead of it being 15 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: wearing the same jeans and black T shirt every day, 16 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: it's the same sleep protocol every day. But it's probably 17 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is if it works, like why 18 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: change it? Huh? 19 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 3: Yeah? 20 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: The works? 21 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: Do it? Yeah? Yeah, It's like the funny thing I 22 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: or one of the challenges I reckon for every one 23 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: is trying to figure out with everything, whether or not 24 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: it's with food or exercise or sleep, or the job 25 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: that you do or your lifestyle, is trying to figure 26 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: out what works best for me, what works best for 27 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: my mind and my creative energy and my health and 28 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: my immune system. Because you know, literally different things work 29 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: for different people, so trying to find some kind of 30 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: generic protocol is typically not a great outcome. 31 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is true about a lot of 32 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: advice in general. This is something I've thought about a lot. 33 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 2: I've wanted to rate a piece called like a theory 34 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: of good Advice that so much advice follows the format 35 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: of this is something I would tell that every single 36 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: person on earth. But if there's anything that would be 37 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: better for every single person on earth to do, it's 38 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: probably either trivial or wrong. And so like, actually, good 39 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: advice requires knowing something about the person that you're giving 40 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: the advice to. So like, yeah, I go into bed 41 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: at a certain time works for me. But to think 42 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: that that's the way that every single person should do 43 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: it just seems kind of bonkers. But that is the 44 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: way that most advice gets frammed, right one. 45 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean, my background is in exercise science, so owning 46 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: gyms and working with athletes and teams and prescribing exercise. Literally, 47 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: and if I have one hundred people in you know, 48 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: one hundred people over one hundred days. I'm not writing 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: the same program once because I'm not dealing with the 50 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: same body twice. You know, Like it's every single person, 51 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: even if it's a twenty five year old dude and 52 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: a twenty five year old dude, and they want similar outcomes. 53 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: They they're not genetically identical. They don't have the same background, 54 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: they don't have the same training history, they don't have 55 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: the same clinical issues, if any, you know. And so 56 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: the whole notion that there is a best number of 57 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: hours to sleep for everyone, or best amount of water 58 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: to drink, or a best amount of steps to take 59 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: per day is you know, it's kind of silly really 60 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: when you understand the uniqueness of us. All. 61 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's obviously very relevant to what you're 62 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: doing here, right that, And I think the way to 63 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: approach it, and I think the way it seems you 64 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: approach it too, it is that rather than this idea 65 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 2: of here's the thing that everybody should do, it's more 66 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: that here are tools that you can use, and you 67 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 2: will have to figure out which one to use. So 68 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: rather than like you should use a hammer on everything 69 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: in your life, it's like here's a hammer, here's a wrench, 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: here's a screwdriver. I can tell you the principles by 71 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: which you should decide which of these to use, but 72 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: your particular problems are always going to be so idiosyncratic that, 73 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 2: like I cannot, without knowing you tell you which of 74 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: these things to do. That's something you have to figure 75 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: out for yourself. 76 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably should have led with this, But let 77 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: me tell our listeners a little bit about you. Adam 78 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: Astriani is a postdoctoral research scholar at Columbia Business School 79 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: and writer whose research focuses on how people perceive and 80 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: misperceive their social worlds. And I jumped in. Also, Adam's 81 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: got a blog called Experimental History. Now blogs are a 82 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: little bit two thousand and eight, but I love them, 83 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: and I had a blog for a long time, Adam, 84 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: so I couldn't be prouder of you. And I jumped 85 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: in last night, and like, this stuff is really interesting 86 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: everyone's obviously it's free. Sign up for his or subscribe. 87 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: There's free, no hooks, catches or agendas. And his articles 88 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: are brilliant. You're very like you have a unique way 89 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: of sharing thoughts and ideas and a little bit almost 90 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: counterintuitive and quirky mate. 91 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. 92 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: Thank you. 93 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think the blog is coming back. It's 94 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: a heart moment for the blog. And having now done 95 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: it for a little bit, I see why that. A 96 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: while ago was in a workshop run by a New 97 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: York Times op ed editor who and as part of 98 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: it he you know, we all sent in op eds 99 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: and he sat with us and showed us how he 100 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: would edit them. And I came to understand why every 101 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: New York Times op ed, like every Atlantic article, like 102 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: every piece in these major outlets, kind of sounds like 103 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: it's spoken by the same person because it is kind 104 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: of spoken by the same person. That like, authors generate 105 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: the raw material, which is then shaped into the voice 106 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: of that publication by someone who's really good at doing that, 107 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: which can lead to really good content, right like it 108 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: smooths over the edges, it can turn kind of a 109 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: you know, a writer who's not that good at it 110 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: into a piece that sounds great. But what I love 111 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: about writing in this mode is I'm trying to sound 112 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: as much like myself as I can, and doing that also, 113 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: I think leads me to think in a way that 114 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: is as much like myself as I can. And I 115 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: think thoughts come out when you try to do that 116 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: that don't come out when it's like, Okay, now I'm 117 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: writing an article and I'm going to speak in the 118 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: voice that you speak in when you write an article. 119 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: I'm really trying to take my insave voice and make 120 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: it outside. 121 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: That's so true, dude, and it's so interesting, and so 122 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: it so works on a podcast, and it so works 123 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: in a blog because you know, people want to know 124 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: you a little bit, even though you know you're the 125 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: guy sharing the information and the science. That's cool. We 126 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: want the information and the science, but we also want 127 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: a bit of a relationship with you, and we want 128 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,119 Speaker 1: to like you because we want to keep coming back. 129 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the challenges is to share 130 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: the science or share the ideas, be yourself, but also 131 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: communicate in a way which makes sense and resonates with 132 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: lots of people. Because if you're sharing science but people 133 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: can't understand it or relate to it, then there's not 134 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: a whole lot of point in sharing the science in 135 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: a public format, right. 136 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think I mean this is 137 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: part way I've gone all in on this blog is 138 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: that when I rate in the mood that I rate 139 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 2: in when I'm writing journal articles for like a scientific publication, 140 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: I basically feel like I'm lying, like to describe things 141 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: in the way that you have to for that kind 142 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: of outlet. You want to like cover up everything that 143 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: makes it seem less trustworthy. You want to pretend like 144 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: you know why everything happened. But when you're writing in 145 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: your own voice, as you would to someone that you 146 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: know personally, you don't do that. Like lies feel very uncomfortable. 147 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: And so like one of the papers that I put 148 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: up on my blog that I wrote sphysically for it, 149 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: that is, like a series of studies is written in 150 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: that voice for that reason and allows me to say 151 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: things like, hey, here's study eight. I forgot why I 152 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: ran study eight. You know this happens right Like we 153 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: ran a lot of studies. You know, I know what 154 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: we did, I know what we found, but I kind 155 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: of forget what we were thinking when we ran it. 156 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: If you can figure that out, let me know. Whereas 157 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: in a journal I would have had to be like, 158 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: and of course we come to study eight, which we 159 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: did for some obvious reason, and here it is. And 160 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: I just much rather tell the truth, even if it 161 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: sounds dumb, Like I'd rather sound dumb and be judged 162 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: for being myself than pretend to sound smart. 163 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you did it the right way around. I did 164 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: it the wrong way round. See, I came from the 165 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: world of freestyle. I came from radio. I came like 166 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: I've written seven books before I even started my PhD. 167 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: So for me, I've had to go the other way 168 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: and how to learn how to write academically. It's a 169 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: fucking nightmare. I'm like, how do people talk like this? 170 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: How do people like you know? I mean even you 171 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: and you like you did your PhD at Harvard, Congratulations, 172 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: you're a straight up genius. But you must look at 173 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: some papers and go, what the fuck does this even mean? 174 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: I look at some titles. I don't even know what 175 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,359 Speaker 1: the title means. I'm like, I don't understand the title. 176 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: And I think they are hoping a lot of others 177 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 2: are hoping that you'll see that and think that they're 178 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 2: really smart, when often if people can't rate in a 179 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: way that's understanable, it's because they don't understand it. But 180 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: like this too, I think is an advantage of writing 181 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: in your own voice that you can't lie to yourself. 182 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: So if you can't explain it to somebody in normal words, 183 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: you probably don't really know what you're talking about. And 184 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: so in a lot of those papers only I've only 185 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: realized this over time. At the beginning, I was like, Man, 186 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: this must be on me. Now I know it's on them, Like, 187 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: if they can't get me to understand it, that's a 188 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 2: failure of them, being that the people are supposed to 189 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: communicate these ideas. 190 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: Do you think that there'll ever be a time where 191 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: and I think the answer to this is no, but 192 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: where academic papers can be written in a way where 193 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: we cover all the information, but it's written in a 194 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: way that I don't know, at least half the population 195 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: could read that paper and understand it and potentially and 196 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: be you know, I call the cops interested, you know. 197 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: And curious. 198 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that happens where we hope. So yeah, I mean, 199 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: this is this is a future that once existed. That 200 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: So this is something I've written on as well that 201 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: a little bit on the history of scientific publishing that like, 202 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: it wasn't always like this. People published and communicated in 203 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: a lot of different ways, and sometimes, you know, the 204 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: main way you would write about your results is the 205 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: way we would write today for like a magazine, like 206 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: our equivalent of you know, writing for a public audience, 207 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: and you would save the technical details for writing a 208 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 2: letter to you to you know, the person you knew 209 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: in Germany, who was who is the only other person 210 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: working on this problem who needs to know all that stuff? 211 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: And so I don't think it would be that hard 212 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: to go back to doing that. That's exactly what I 213 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: try to do on my blog, where I write in 214 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: the version that I think most people can understand, and 215 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 2: then if you are an expert in this and you 216 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: want to know all the details, you want to see 217 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: the code that I wrote, You want to see my data, 218 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: you want to see my materials. All of them are 219 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: there in public for you, but only you know, point 220 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: zero zero one percent of people are ever going to 221 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: click on them. And that's fine. But I want to 222 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: create the content that's going to be helpful for the 223 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: ninety nine point ninete nine percent of people who I 224 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: hope to actually inform with what I do, because if 225 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: not like that, it's all effort and money for nothing, 226 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: like just going into the void. 227 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: And the amount of people that are actually going to 228 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: read the Pipers that you wrote, and even like, I'm 229 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: writing a systematic literature review on metaperception of metaaccuracy at 230 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: the moment, which, as you would imagine, is fucking riveting. 231 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 1: Now one's going to rate that. Now, one's going to 232 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: want to rate it. Now, one's going to rate it. Now. 233 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: Any people who will rate it will will scan it. 234 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: And that's because they have to yeah, and then looking. 235 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: Yes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No. They want to tear 236 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: you down because how dare you try to publish? I mean, 237 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: it's also especially difficult for you because you're probably writing 238 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: things like people think that others think that they think 239 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 2: this about them, and like even if you have no 240 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: words of jargeted there, just figuring out what you're talking 241 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 2: about is horrid. 242 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I colloquially call it the you experience, right, 243 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: So I developed the scale, which is it's called the 244 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: yes forty Yes being you experienced scale forty criteria for 245 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: domains blah blah blah. Right, But it's really like and 246 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: most of my job in inverted Commas for the last 247 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: twenty years especially has been corporate speaking, so helping people 248 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: understand what it's like being around them for others and 249 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: why that matters in leadership and communication and connection and 250 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: teamwork and problem solving, But trying to talk about that 251 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: stuff in a way where people don't get defensive. Like 252 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: when you say, what do you think it's like being 253 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: around you? Most people straight away get defensive. Oh well, 254 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: fuck them. I'm just going to be me, and if 255 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: they don't like it, I'm going to be authentic to 256 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: my values and I'm going to I'm like, well, that's 257 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: awesome if you live by yourself on an island, But 258 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: if you've actually got to have relationships with other humans, 259 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: how people perceive and process and experience you actually matters. Now, 260 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: that's not about being, you know, insecure. That's actually about 261 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: a kind of self awareness and other awareness and situational 262 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: awareness so that you can do life and business and 263 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: work and relationships and communication and meetings effectively. You know. 264 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm sure often people have a 265 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: goal like I want other people to feel comfortable, So 266 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: I'm going to do the things that I think may 267 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: make other people feel comfortable. But if I then discover 268 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: that those things don't actually make them feel that way, 269 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: I would do something different. Like that's why it matters 270 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: what I think you think about me. 271 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, having that awareness. So tell us about 272 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: your research and unpack a bit of it for us, 273 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: if you would. 274 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 275 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: I study a bunch of things, mainly in two buckets. 276 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: One is the illusions and biases that are right in 277 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: social interaction, so the things that happened when people talk 278 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: to one another. One thing I've worked on there is 279 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: a paper call to do conversations to end when people 280 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: want them to, which I'm sure is relevant to you 281 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: as a podcast host. And the short answer to that 282 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: is no. So we ran two big studies. In one. 283 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: We brought people into the lab and we had them 284 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: talk as long as they wanted to and we just said, 285 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: talk as long as you'd like, let us know when 286 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: you're ready to move on. And then we asked them 287 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: later separately, did that conversation end when you first felt 288 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: ready for it to end? And if they said no, 289 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: we asked like, well, okay, how much sooner did you 290 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: want to go? Or how much longer did you want 291 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: to go? And on average, the difference between how long 292 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: people wanted to talk and how long they actually talked 293 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: was about half of the length of the conversation. So 294 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: if we talked for twenty minutes. I wanted to go 295 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: somewhere between ten minutes earlier and ten minutes later. And 296 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: this happened both with strangers that we brought into our lab, 297 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: but also with people who knew each other that we 298 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: surveyed online. We asked people about the last conversation that 299 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: they had, and the results are pretty much the same. 300 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: So this wasn't just like, oh, we're meeting each other. 301 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: It's very awkward. This is also happening in people's living rooms, 302 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: and we think it happens for two reasons. One is, 303 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: people very rarely want to speak for the same amount 304 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: of time, so if I want to speak for ten 305 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: minutes and you want to speak for twenty, then we 306 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: both can't get what we want. And the second reason 307 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: is that people are really bad at knowing when the 308 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: other person wanted to leave the conversation. So if I 309 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: don't know what you want and you don't know what 310 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: I want, it's very unlikely that we're going to get 311 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: what either of us want. And so we show that 312 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: both of those things are in fact the case, and 313 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: they appear to be true both for strangers and for friends. 314 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: But even given all that, people still really enjoy this conversation. 315 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: So even though conversation and when they want them to, 316 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: people enjoy them often more than they expect. So that's 317 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: kind of one bucket of my research. 318 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: And so what are some of the potential issues that 319 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: come out of that when people are over talking or 320 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: under talking not the right term, but you know, when 321 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: you want to talk twenty because you're excited, and I 322 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: want to talk for ten because I'm not interested. I'm 323 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: all about me, for example, what does that make for 324 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: clunky relationships? Does that make for problems in the workplace. 325 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: Or Yeah, So so he asked people how much they 326 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: enjoyed their conversations, and so I can see whether you 327 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: wanted this conversation to end sooner or you whether you 328 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: wanted it to go on, or for a minority of people, 329 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: they wanted it to go exactly as long as it did. 330 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 2: And you might think that being anywhere other than the 331 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: sweet spot would be really bad. That if I'm if 332 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: I talk longer than I want to, you know, I 333 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: got stuck. If I talk less than I wanted to, 334 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: then I got cut off. But in fact, the people 335 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: who said that the conversation ended before they wanted it 336 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: to were just as happy as the people who said 337 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: it ended exactly when they wanted it to. It was 338 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: only the people who said I wanted to go sooner 339 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: who reported having a worse time, which suggests that it's 340 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: actually just as good to be left wanting more as 341 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: it is to be left wanting exactly as much as 342 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: you got. You know, if you go to an ice 343 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: cream shop and you walk away and you eat too 344 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: much ice cream, you feel sick, But if you could 345 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: have one more scoop, what you really want to do 346 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 2: is come back to that ice cream shop. You don't 347 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: walk away thinking like, oh man, that a terrible experience. 348 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: And I think it's the same thing with conversations. If 349 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: we don't talk as much as I want to, what 350 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: I really want to do is talk to you again, 351 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: rather than walk away thinking like, oh, I guess that 352 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: wasn't that good. So that's one consequence. 353 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: What about when we have a predetermined time for the conversation, 354 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: like you and I, we've got a thirty minute meeting 355 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: from ten till ten thirty. I know it, you know it? 356 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: Does all that stuff go away? Then? 357 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, we didn't study those situations, but I think two 358 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: things can happen. One is if we have thirty minutes 359 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 2: but we actually only have content for fifteen, we end 360 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: up both back stuck in the conversation because we know 361 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 2: we're supposed to be here. I've scheduled my next thing 362 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: for fifteen minutes from now, so I don't have a 363 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: good excuse to leave, or we just end up cutting 364 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: ourselves off because we actually had forty five minutes of content. 365 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: So it can solve some of the problem of knowing 366 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: when to end, but that does it doesn't solve the 367 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 2: problem of leaving when you will want to leave. So 368 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: this is something that we thought could be true about 369 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: conversations going into it, that it could be that we 370 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: pick up on cues from the other person and we 371 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: figure out when the appropriate time is to end, and 372 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 2: by the end we both kind of agree that that's 373 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: the right time, And in the conversations we study, that 374 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: just doesn't seem to happen, and that actually, in most 375 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: conversations people end up both wanting more or both wanting less. 376 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 2: So it isn't even that like we split the difference 377 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: between what we wanted. It's that actually we both wanted 378 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: to go ten minutes ago, but we kept going. 379 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 4: Have you have you looked at have you looked at 380 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 4: the variables around all the factors which affect how much 381 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 4: somebody enjoys being in a conversation or how well connected 382 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 4: they are or feel they are, you know. 383 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: Because sometimes I'll even on this show, between you and me, 384 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: we won't say who. But sometimes I've set out where 385 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, this person is going to be fucking amazing, 386 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: and Melissa, we might make this a double and i 387 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 1: end up talking for thirteen minutes and I'm like, how 388 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: quickly can I get out of this? Obviously not the 389 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: case today, or I wouldn't have said that right, And 390 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: other times where and this has happened more times than 391 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: I want to admit, I would say at least I mean, 392 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: considering we're eleven hundred and fifty odd episodes in, I 393 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: reckon at least fifty times I've been underwhelmed with or 394 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: I've had not awesome expectations about the person that I 395 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: was going to chat with in terms of like this 396 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: will probably not be long, it'll probably you know, And 397 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: then I've started and it's like, really, I'm not really 398 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: I'm not fascinated with their journey or their and then 399 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: I talked to them and I was completely wrong. I 400 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: was one hundred percent wrong. There fascinating. Their story or 401 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: their research is amazing, and I don't want it to end. 402 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: Have you looked at the variables that make people want 403 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: to stay in or get out of a conversation. 404 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? 405 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're limited because we only see people in one conversation, 406 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 2: so I don't get to see people across conversations. But 407 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 2: we did have people in one study fill out this 408 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,239 Speaker 2: standard measure of shyness and sociability, So in general, how 409 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 2: much do you like talking to other people? And it 410 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: just didn't seem to make a big difference as to like, 411 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: did you get what you wanted out of this conversation? 412 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: How long did you talk? I think because it's so 413 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: idiosyncratic what happens between you and one other person that 414 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: maybe in general you're kind of a shy person, or 415 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 2: maybe in general you're kind of a talkative person. But 416 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 2: what really determines the way you feel is this person 417 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: in particular? Do you like talking to this person or 418 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: do you not like talking to this person? And by 419 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: the way, that experience you just described, I think is 420 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: actually the most common one. So there's a bunch of 421 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: other research on how people expect conversations with strangers to 422 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 2: be less good than they turn out to be. Yeah, 423 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: And there's this this funny phenomenon where like, you know, 424 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 2: you think that meeting someone new isn't going to be 425 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: very good, and then it turns out that it's great, 426 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: and then you think that the next person isn't going 427 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 2: to be good. It's like it's impossible to actually learn 428 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: anything about strangers because as soon as you learn something 429 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: about someone, they stop being a stranger. So it always 430 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: kind of feels like, oh, well, that person wasn't a stranger. 431 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: This person wasn't a stranger. It's all those other strangers 432 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: out there that I haven't met yet who aren't going 433 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: to be very fun to talk to. 434 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: I think. I think one of the challenges with we're 435 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: talking to somebody like right now, being present is realizing 436 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: that your version of right now is not my version 437 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 1: of right now, and the experience that you're having is 438 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: not the experience I'm having. Yeah, but we're not in 439 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: the same conversation. Well, we are in the same conversation, 440 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: but not the same experience of the conversation. And I 441 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: know this sounds confusing, sorry everyone, But then for me 442 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: to try to go what's right now? Like for Adam, 443 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: what's what's Adam's version of this podcast in the moment? 444 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: Like is he looking at his clock going why the 445 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: fuck did I agree to this bloke with this weird accent? 446 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: Like seriously, fucking hell save me? You know, or you know, 447 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: and without overthinking that, but you know that whole theory 448 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: of mind thing. If I can't at least kind of 449 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: understand where the person in front of me is at mentally, 450 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: you know, what right now is like for them? If 451 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: I just assume that they are in the same experience 452 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: as me, I'm more likely to create disconnection than connection. 453 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean for you right, like I am 454 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: one of eleven hundred people that you've either seen in 455 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: a little zoom box or I don't know if they've 456 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: been in your studio, Like this is totally different, whereas 457 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 2: for me, this is, you know, one of fifty podcasts 458 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 2: or whatever that I have ever been on. We're in 459 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 2: two different worlds as to what we're you know, what 460 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: experiences we've had and what experiences that we've had after 461 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: I think it's probably what makes it interesting, right that 462 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: you bring something different than than I bring, and you know, 463 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: I haven't done this a eleven hundred times, so I've 464 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: I've got new content for you. 465 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do you when you're talking to a different audience, 466 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: be that an audience of a podcast like me, or 467 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: an audience of one face to face, or a bunch 468 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: of students that you're teaching, do you do you have 469 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: an awareness in the moment of where and how you 470 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: need to, like the level to which you need to speak, 471 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: and the way that you need to share the same 472 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: idea in different ways to different audiences, so that that 473 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: might land. 474 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Actually a lot of that comes from 475 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: my background in stand up and improv comedy, which is 476 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 2: what I do when I'm not writing on the internet 477 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: or doing research. And as. 478 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: There's the question there, it is there under there. 479 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: Does everyone you talk to like have have like the 480 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 2: the quirky reveal it's like finding the daily double on 481 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 2: Jeopardy Maybe that has no uh no media or like 482 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 2: it's like finding the treasure chest, right. 483 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the metaphoric treasure chest. Now that explains that 484 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: just brought a few things screamingly into perspective, and I 485 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: just had an ah, right now, I get it, now, 486 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: I get the blog now I get the quirkiness. Sorry, 487 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: might keep going. 488 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's all connected. But when you're on stage, 489 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: it almost feels metaphysical because it sometimes doesn't even feel 490 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: like people are giving you any kind of observable feedback. 491 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 2: You just feel a shift in the room, and maybe 492 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: it's a bunch of people doing very tiny things that 493 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 2: you get used to feeling that, Like they shifted a 494 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 2: little bit, they looked away, they looked up, they smiled 495 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 2: a little bit, to know that, oh, I hit something 496 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: that they're interested in. There's a thread here that I 497 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: can pull on, or you feel the air go out 498 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: of the room and you realize, oh, there's the opposite 499 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: of a thread there, like I need to leave that 500 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: behind and do something else. So I feel the same thing, 501 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: like whether I'm teaching a class, or whether I'm on 502 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 2: stage in an improv show, or whether I'm writing a 503 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: blogger and the you know, the audience is purely imagined 504 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: that I'm always feel like I'm pitching toward toward that group. 505 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: I mean, is this something you feel as well, that 506 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: they're shifting for who you're talking to or what audiences 507 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: are in front of? 508 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: One percent, Sometimes Adam, I will like if I'm doing 509 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: a corporate gig, and because I can talk about, you know, 510 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: for one of the more academic label you know, mind 511 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: stuff or body stuff or resilient stuff or you know whatever, 512 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: general health, you know, sport, human optimization, like we can 513 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: kind of cover a bit. And sometimes I'll feel like, 514 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'll just open the door in 515 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: a moment for a moment, I'll talk about physical health 516 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: and you know, posture and ammune system and energy, and 517 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I feel a greater connection. But 518 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: I was kind of heading down the you know, the 519 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: kind of managing your mind to kind of path, and 520 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, I go, oh, maybe we 521 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: should talk about managing your body, because it's all related anyway. 522 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: And I'd say, all right, we can. And often I 523 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: give the audience the option of where we go for 524 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: the next half hour, and I'd say, I can I 525 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: can do this presentation, I can do this, we can 526 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: talk about this topic or this topic. What do you 527 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: guys want? And often they'll go, let's talk about physical 528 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: health because I feel like dogshit, and I'm all right, 529 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm in you know, But that being able to in 530 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: the moment adapt is something that you know only comes 531 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: with time, I guess, but I applaud you, mate. I 532 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: so love comedy, but I'm such a fucking baby the 533 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: idea of getting up on I would rather talk to 534 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: a corporate audience of one thousand for an hour with 535 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: no notes and just do my thing than talk to 536 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: eight people in a room for three minutes with the 537 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: task of being or the responsibility of making them laugh. 538 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: Like when yeah, that that terrifies me. 539 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 2: Well, especially for eight people, that is a tough audience 540 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 2: size because people aren't deindividuated, right, like they all know 541 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: that you can see them. And really the way to 542 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: get people to laugh is you want them to not 543 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 2: be thinking about their body. You want them to be 544 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: in darkness. There was a gig I did about a 545 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 2: year ago. It was like it was the Oxford Cambridge 546 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: boat Race dinner, where you know, a bunch of Oxford 547 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: alums get together and drink a lot and they're and 548 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: I had been brought on as a stand up for 549 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: the night. I had never been to one of these before. 550 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: And and so people get up to like do their 551 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: speech introducing people or like reporting on the results of 552 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 2: the boat race, and nobody is listening. Everyone is talking 553 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: full volume and like people are trying to get potentially 554 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: they're like, you know, dinging their wine glasses. It's surreal 555 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: and I I feel like I'm watching a freight train 556 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: coming at me because I know I'm gonna be on later. 557 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: And I turned to the other guy who's supposed to 558 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: be doing comedy later. I'm like, we're dead, Like, we 559 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 2: gotta leave, we can't do this. But I knew from 560 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 2: looking around that people didn't actually want to be talking. 561 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: A lot of people were frustrated by the fact that 562 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: that they couldn't hear the speaker. They really wanted to 563 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 2: all be doing the same thing. They wanted to either 564 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 2: either they wanted it to be dinner time and we're 565 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: not listening to anyone, or they wanted to be quiet 566 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: time or all listening to a speaker. I was like, Okay, 567 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 2: if I have any chance of getting this audience, I 568 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 2: need to get everybody on the same page. So I 569 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: tried to talk the organizer out of doing the comedy. 570 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: He's like, no, I think it's just what they need. 571 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: So I was like, okay. When he calls me up, 572 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: I grab the microphone and I screw and I run 573 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: off the stage and I scream it's time for fucking comedy, 574 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: and everybody gets quiet and for the first time in 575 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: the whole night, and I feel that power of we know, 576 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 2: for the first time, we're paying attention to something altogether, 577 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,479 Speaker 2: and we feel excited about that, and we feel kind 578 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: of weird about that. And I'm like, Okay, I had 579 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: seven minutes material. I'm going to do three minutes of 580 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: material and I'm going to move from table to table. 581 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to hit as many punchlines as I can, 582 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to pass the microphone back to 583 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: the organizer because he's going to kill the energy. I'm 584 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: going to hand it right to the next comedian. And yeah, 585 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,239 Speaker 2: that felt like a kind of magical moment of realizing, like, 586 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: it's not that people don't want to pay attention. We're 587 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: all frustrated that we can't coordinate and if someone else 588 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: is talking, then like I can't listen, So I'm going 589 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: to talk too. We need to get everybody in the 590 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 2: room doing the same thing, and we need to give 591 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: them something to focus on. And that's but yeah, I 592 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: love that, And well did it work? 593 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: Obviously? Obviously it was. 594 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: It worked, It worked, Yeah, I got a few laughs, 595 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: and I think more people were just impressed that, you know, 596 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: five people had been at the podium and totally unable 597 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: to get the audience's attention. We had somebody talking about 598 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 2: like child sex trafficking in developing countries, and that got 599 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: like thirty seconds of silence, and then people were just 600 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: back to full volume. So I'm like, if they're not 601 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: listening to that lead, you're talking about serious stuff, like, 602 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: why are they going to listen to me? And it's like, well, 603 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 2: it's because you need to get them over this activation 604 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: energy into this mode where we're all doing the same thing, 605 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: because if we have one person talking, then we're done. 606 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know, I don't feel a freedom 607 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: by it anymore because I've died in so many ways, 608 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 2: so many times on stage. And once you have, you know, 609 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 2: you move, you go home and you go to the 610 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: next gig. You like the Lazarus Comedy. You like the 611 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 2: Lazarus Comedy, Dude, you just keep coming back, right, Hey. 612 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: But that's I mean, that is super brave of you, 613 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: and you are way more courageous than I am. I 614 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: think also that demonstrates a kind of social intelligence and 615 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 1: situational awareness that you know, like because you study human 616 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: behavior and more and you're a comic, you kind of 617 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: have both of those things in your pocket, right, so 618 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: you can figure out that if you just get up 619 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: there and you basically do just another version of what 620 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: everybody else does, which is just stroll up and try 621 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: to get the audience attention, it ain't gonna work. Let's 622 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about intelligence, because what you did was, 623 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 1: apart from making people laugh, you had enough social and 624 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: emotional and situational intelligence to be able to understand what 625 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,959 Speaker 1: would work or what you thought might work, which happened 626 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: to work, which is good. But also you definitely knew 627 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: what wouldn't work because you'd seen what didn't work the 628 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: four times before you or whatever it was. Tell us 629 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: about the diversity of intelligence, if you've got any thoughts 630 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: on that. 631 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 632 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: So I wrote a peace trying to get at this, 633 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: called why Aren't Smart People Happier? Coming from this idea 634 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: that when you think of someone who's intelligent, you probably 635 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: picture like someone who's really good at chess or physics 636 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: or math or computers, which I think it makes sense 637 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: that we think of that person like that because those 638 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: are all very what I would call well defined problems, 639 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: where you know when someone has solved them, you can 640 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: turn them into basically multiple choice questions. There's no debate 641 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: about whether it's a problem, and there's no debate about 642 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: when it's solved. And so when you have people solving 643 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: those kinds of problems, it's very easy to rank them. 644 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: This is basically what we do with standardized tests, but 645 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: that only captures a very small number of the kinds 646 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,719 Speaker 2: of problems that humans encounter every day. So another problem is, 647 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, how do you get people's attention if you 648 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: want to do some stand up comedy with them. Well, 649 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: that's the thing that you can't reduce to a multiple 650 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: choice question, because I mean part gives away one of 651 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: the answers. But also just knowing what answer is right 652 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: doesn't mean you can do it, doesn't mean you are 653 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 2: willing to do it, and doesn't mean that it's right 654 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: for every situation like this is a problem that's way 655 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 2: more poorly defined. And so when we think about intelligence 656 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: just being your ability to solve these well defined problems, 657 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: we don't think about your ability to solve these very 658 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: poorly defined problems, which I also think of as intelligence, 659 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: like these are problems just the same, and so obviously 660 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: someone who's really good at CHEST is not necessarily going 661 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: to be the person who's best at doing standard better 662 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: dinner party. So what is that? And I think that's 663 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: also intelligence, But we sell ourselves short by thinking of 664 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: it as just this thing that you can assess by 665 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: asking people some very codified questions. So that's when I 666 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: think about it. 667 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that whole kind of ability to 668 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: be able to, you know, connect with people and understand 669 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: what's happening for other people in front of you, and 670 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: to be able to more broadly navigate life in a 671 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: way where you're I mean, life is really about solving problems, 672 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: which doesn't necessarily seem like problems, but getting from A 673 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: to B or resolving a conflict with someone or creating 674 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: connection with someone or you know, my training partner from 675 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: the gym, I think he finished school in like year 676 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: ten and been incredibly successful in business. He's now kind 677 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: of retired, but he's still young, issues in his early fifties, 678 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: but he's got this brain that he just figures stuff 679 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: out that I don't even know how he figures it out. 680 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: He has this innate genius right. Nobody taught him. He 681 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: didn't go to school and get it. He hasn't researched it. 682 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: He can just solve problems that I just look at 683 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: shit and I go, if there's something breaks in my house, 684 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: if something you know, anything that's just like a a 685 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: that requires immense practical intelligence, I'm a dumbass. I'll ring 686 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: him and he'll tell me in thirteen seconds what's wrong 687 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: and how to fix it, or he'll come over. He'll 688 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: come over and fix it. And it's not like, oh, 689 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: he's just got skills in his handy. No, it's anyone 690 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: can develop skills and be handy. There's something else where. 691 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: He just has this way of figuring stuff out that 692 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: is not traditional. It's not typical, it's not academic in 693 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: its kind of vibe. It's I don't know it. And 694 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: I look at him and I go, you're one of 695 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: the smartest people I know, and I know a lot 696 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: of smart people. But if you looked at him, this 697 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: big fucking muscular unit lifting shit in the gym, you 698 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: would not go, there's a genius over there on the 699 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: bench press. That's exactly what he is. Though you know 700 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: it comes in all shapes and sizes literally, Yeah. 701 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 702 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 2: Are there things that got the opposite we were, problems 703 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 2: that he calls you to solve? 704 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so stuff with that's a good question. So 705 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: stuff with. I won't open the door too wide, but 706 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: there have been times when he's asked me to have 707 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: a chat to his kids about things, or to you know, 708 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: like the psychological stuff and kind of emotional regulation stuff 709 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: and having certain conversations about human behavior, or we'll just 710 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: talk about yeah, like some of the more nuanced life stuff. 711 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: Definitely I've probably got him covered. But yeah, yeah, it is. 712 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: It's like it's almost like a very practical intelligence that 713 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: he has that I don't have. 714 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think goes exactly to this point that 715 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: if you think about intelligence as this like general purpose 716 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: muscle that the more you build it, the more you 717 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 2: can solve any problem, anything you'd call a problem, you're 718 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: going to be better at doing it. It just doesn't 719 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: work like that, because I mean, here's a guy who's 720 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: very good at solving this certain class of problems, but 721 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 2: less so it's solving this different kind of problem. And 722 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 2: that's one of the points I make in this piece 723 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 2: is that if you look at the data, there's not 724 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: really a correlation between how people score on intelligence tests 725 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 2: and how happy or satisfied their lives they report being, 726 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 2: which would be very surprising if you think of intelligence 727 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: as raw problems solving ability, because well, if you're better 728 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 2: at solving problems, shouldn't you be more satisfied with your life? 729 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: And I think it's precisely because these tests measure a 730 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 2: certain kind of problem solving that isn't the kind of 731 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: problem solving that makes your life more satisfying, because like, 732 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 2: how do you live a satisfying life? Well, it's very 733 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: poorly defined. This is not like a fill in the 734 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: blank answer. Your answer is going to be different from 735 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 2: someone else's answer. The options are completely unlimited and they're 736 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 2: always changing. Like, this is totally different from solving for X, 737 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 2: And so it makes sense that getting better at solving 738 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 2: for X is unrelated to your ability to solve for 739 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 2: you know, the great X of life. 740 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so true. 741 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: Hey did you ever did you ever see that that YouTube? Sorry, 742 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: that that ted presentation on YouTube by Professor Ken Robinson? 743 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 3: No, I don't think dude. 744 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: You got to check it out. It's called It's old now, 745 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: but it's one of the highest, probably in the top 746 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: one or two or three watched Ted Talks of All 747 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: Time and it was early days. It was maybe twenty 748 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: eleven or twelve or ten, and I've watched a bunch 749 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: and it's just it's one of my favorites. And it's 750 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: called how Our Schools or why schools are Killing Creativity? 751 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: And he's an academic and he's actually passed on now 752 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: God blessed, but he he talks about creative intelligence. And 753 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: if I can boy you for one sec, I love 754 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: this story. I've probably told it twice in eleven hundred episodes. 755 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 1: But there's this he tells this story about this teacher 756 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: and she's teaching what we would call preps. I don't 757 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: know what's the first grade of school called over there 758 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: in the States. 759 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 2: First grade? 760 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, first grade. So we have what's called prep, which 761 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: we be, and then we have grade one, but first grade. 762 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,240 Speaker 1: So she's got these first graders, a bunch of first graders, 763 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: she's the teacher, and they're all it's like art, it's 764 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: the art lesson. They've all got paper and paint and 765 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: crayons and shit everywhere. And then she she's walking around 766 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: the class and she comes up to this little girl 767 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: who's right up the back, and she's she's got it 768 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: all going on. There's this her papers out, and there's 769 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: stuff all there's paint and crayons, and it's just this cacophony, 770 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: this just symphony of mayhem, right, and her artistic mayhem. 771 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: And she looks down and she goes, wow, that's that's interesting. 772 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: She goes, what are you painting to the little girl, 773 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: and little girl goes, I'm painting God. And the teacher goes, well, sweetie, 774 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: no one knows what God looks like. And she goes, 775 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: they will in a minute. And I'm like, that's so 776 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: like that kid doesn't know, you know, it's like she's 777 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: just expressing, you know. Yeah. And it's like it just 778 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: like creativity and genius and intelligence. It it expresses itself differently, 779 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: you know. 780 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. You know. 781 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: It reminds me of some stuff from Improv where we 782 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 2: run into this exact thing where people get trained to 783 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: stop doing that. Like if people tell you enough that 784 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 2: no one knows what God looks like, you stop saying 785 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 2: that you're gonna find out in a minute, and you 786 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,919 Speaker 2: start saying, oh, I should do something else. So there's 787 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 2: this great instructor of improv named Keith Johnstone, who talks 788 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 2: about these stories that he has with his students, or 789 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 2: to do an exercise like you know, hell, no, I'm 790 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: putting a box in front of you. You know, it's 791 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 2: in visile box, not there, And they'll say pull something 792 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 2: out of the box and tell me what it is, 793 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: and people will you know, reach in and go, uh 794 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 2: it's and I go, why is it? Why are you? 795 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 2: Like why aren't you just telling me? And like what's 796 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 2: into your head? And people will be like, well, I 797 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 2: was going to say it's an ego, but I thought 798 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 2: that'd be too gross. It's like, what do you mean 799 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 2: it's too I just asked you just tell me what's 800 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 2: in the box, Like why did you already judge your idea? 801 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 3: And I find this too. 802 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 2: When I teach him prov classes, we'll do this very 803 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 2: basic warm up where I just point at you and 804 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 2: I say a word. You repeat the word and see 805 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 2: whatever word comes to mind. And people get so stopped 806 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: up trying to do this that they'll you know, I'll 807 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 2: say like lightning and they'll go lightning. And then they'll 808 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: look around the room and see someone shoes and go 809 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 2: shoes because we've been trained that like, no, do this right, 810 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 2: like do this funny, like do this smart, rather than 811 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 2: like just do this, just do the thing that comes 812 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 2: to mind. And it's the kind of thing that gets 813 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 2: ground out of people over time, which sounds like some 814 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 2: of the point he was making this Ted talk. 815 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: And I think we're also very aware of oh, whatever 816 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: I say, or maybe it's not going to be but 817 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: we feel like, oh, whatever I say. After Adam says, 818 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,439 Speaker 1: you know, lightning, I would have said Rod, by the way, 819 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: you're welcome, thank you, you're very creative. I so wanted 820 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: to fucking play, but you didn't ask me. Next time, 821 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: the twelve year old comes out. But you know where 822 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: we're aware that or whatever I say will be judged. 823 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: And what if I say something that's dumb? So let 824 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: me just hit the pause button while I think of 825 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: something that I think is not dumb, because oh fuck, 826 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: hang on, what's what's what's gonna get me? You know? 827 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: And then you've killed the vibe and you've missed the point. 828 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, this idea that by squeezing my 829 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: brain harder, I'm going to get something better out of it. 830 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 2: No one ever tells you that specifically, but we learn 831 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: that like, oh, my first instincts are wrong. I should 832 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: apply whatever rules I've internalized to whatever I'm thinking and 833 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,439 Speaker 2: then only bring that out. I mean, this idea of 834 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 2: what if I say something stupid, like yeah, what if 835 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 2: like no one's gonna care. We're gonna play this for 836 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 2: five more minutes, and then you're gonna pretend to be 837 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 2: a toilet in a scene like nothing is going to happen. 838 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 2: But it's really hard to learn that without actually doing it. 839 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 2: Like I tell people this at the beginning, but I mean, 840 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 2: this is another thing that I've written about it is 841 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 2: how hard it is to transmit this lesson through words. 842 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 2: You really just have to do it. You have to 843 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 2: say something stupid and then realize that being judged for 844 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 2: it isn't that bad or it doesn't even happen. And 845 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 2: that's the only way in someone telling you that it's 846 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 2: not going to happen does not work. Is there anything 847 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 2: the mystery is of learning? 848 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: Is there anything that lives at the intersection of your 849 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: comedy career and your research, Like, is there any there 850 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: was has one helped the other or interfered with the other? 851 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when there's a lot of answer to that. 852 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 2: I think the way that I think about ideas in 853 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 2: the first place is really a research idea is really 854 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 2: influenced by the way I do comedy, in that when 855 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 2: I show up to do a show, I know that 856 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 2: people can they could very easily be home watching Netflix 857 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 2: and eating pringles, like why are they here doing this? 858 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 2: Like I want to do something that's worth their time, 859 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 2: and if I don't have something that's worth their time, 860 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 2: then I should go home and watch Netflix and eat pringles. 861 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 2: And I feel the same way whenever I'm writing a 862 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 2: blog post that like why am I spending time on? 863 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 2: Like why is this worth people's time? And if I 864 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 2: don't have answer to that question, I should stop and 865 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 2: do something else. And it's easy to overdo it on 866 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 2: that feeling and feel like, oh, everything that I do 867 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 2: has to be really good. But I find it's very 868 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 2: clarifying that, like, oh, the reason I want to do 869 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 2: this is because I feel very excited about it, and 870 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 2: if I am, I know that I'm not that weird 871 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 2: of a person. I'm a little bit weird as a person, 872 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 2: but not so weird that there's nobody else in the 873 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 2: world who's not going to like the thing that I like. 874 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 2: That's one way and another way is I do a 875 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 2: voiceover of every post that I post, because some people 876 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 2: prefer to listen then to read, and that is very 877 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 2: performative to me that like, I do it all in 878 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 2: one take. I go off script and it feels a 879 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 2: little bit like doing a stance every team. But I'm 880 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 2: speaking into a make that is in front of a 881 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 2: pillar in my bedroom, which is sometimes better than being 882 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 2: at some of the stand up gigs that they've been at. 883 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 2: But there too. 884 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: Have you been told a bunch that you've got a 885 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 1: great voice. 886 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 2: You've been told that some Yes, I appreciate it, thank you. 887 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got an awesome voice for radio, awesome voice 888 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: for voiceovers, awesome voice for podcast. So probably, like well, 889 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: definitely like millions of others, I listened to Rogan. Do 890 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: you listen to Rogan or not? 891 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 2: I have it now? 892 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: So he's I mean, you know who he is, though, 893 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure Joe. Yeah, So I mean one of the 894 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: things he has one of the he has a lot 895 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: of varied people, of course, but he has a bunch 896 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,799 Speaker 1: of comedians on. He has a bunch of scientists and 897 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: researchers too, But so they're always talking about comedy and 898 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: the process and the creative kind of process and the 899 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: journey and the triumphs and tribulations and you know, eating 900 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: shit on the stage, he would call it. And for 901 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: my for my older listeners, that just means not going 902 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: very well. And but you know, like getting up and 903 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: eating shit, getting up eating shit, getting up eating shit 904 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: and then finally like fifteen times, twenty thirty times in 905 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: just getting an actual genuine laugh. And he said, it's 906 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: like cocaine. It's like, you know, do you remember the 907 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: time that you got up there after you know, dying 908 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: and eating shit and all of that, and then where 909 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: you actually had an audience laugh or half an audience laugh, 910 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,680 Speaker 1: where you went, it's all worth it and this is 911 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: fucking magic. Do you remember that? Yeah? 912 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 2: I remember it because it happens like there was a 913 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,680 Speaker 2: period of time where it flipped every time. Like I 914 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 2: lived in the UK for a while and I did 915 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 2: a lot of stand up over there, and so I 916 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 2: do like multiple gigs in a week, and one game 917 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 2: would go terribly and I'd walk away going stand up's dumb, 918 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: It's a stupid art form. I'll never do it again. 919 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 2: And uh, I'm an academic. 920 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,759 Speaker 1: I'm an academic. What am I doing this? 921 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? 922 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: This is below me. 923 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 2: That's who I really am, and that I come back 924 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 2: the next night and for whatever reason it hits and 925 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 2: I go, actually, stand up is like the best thing ever, 926 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 2: and like I'm really great at it. And that's what 927 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,839 Speaker 2: I'm about. All this academic stuff is just to pay 928 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 2: the bills and to give me, you know, a veneer 929 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:21,320 Speaker 2: of respectability. 930 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:23,320 Speaker 3: And it goes to show. 931 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 2: You that, uh that like every night is different, and 932 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 2: so part of that is you know you're different, but 933 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 2: most of it is the audience is different, and so 934 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,799 Speaker 2: you also learn to just be less precious about it. 935 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 2: Some people aren't gonna like you, that's fine, uh, And 936 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,879 Speaker 2: part of the way you have to learn is being 937 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 2: the kind of person that even when people dislike that, 938 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 2: you're still happy to be that person. I wrote a 939 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 2: piece a couple of weeks ago about some of the 940 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 2: reason I blog wrote it in asking like how did 941 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 2: you find your voice as a writer? And I told 942 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 2: them in part, like I did a bunch of embarrassing things, 943 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,160 Speaker 2: Like I was in a bunch of stupid plays, and 944 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 2: I died on stage all the time, and I figured 945 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,399 Speaker 2: out a version of myself that I didn't mind being 946 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 2: disliked for, and that's the version of me that's writing 947 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 2: these things. And so finding that is a manner? 948 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 3: Is it means you. 949 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 2: Have to find someone that like even when people are 950 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 2: like boo You're like, well it's not for everybody, rather 951 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 2: than like, oh, okay, well I'll be different. So you 952 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,800 Speaker 2: start booing. I mean some ways that you are you 953 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 2: should be different, like some booze you should listen to. 954 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,080 Speaker 2: But you kind of try to have to triangulate when 955 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 2: are you happy to be booed at? 956 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: What's your If you have one, you must have one. 957 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: What's your writing process for comedy? 958 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 3: Is it? 959 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 1: Is it systematic? Or is it like you're driving and 960 00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,439 Speaker 1: you have an idea and you pull over and talk 961 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 1: into your phone or you're in the middle of a 962 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: conversation with I do this sometimes where I have an 963 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: idea for a I have an Instagram page called Whiteboard 964 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,280 Speaker 1: lessons where I just put up a thought or an idea, 965 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: and I'll be talking to someone and I go, oh, hang, 966 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and I've got to stop the conversation, which 967 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,040 Speaker 1: is so rude, and then write this thing in my 968 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: phone because this is going to be I'm gonna I'm 969 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 1: gonna post this, Laer. What's your process? 970 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is some of that that, like when inspiration strikes, 971 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 2: you need to capture it because those things seem like 972 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 2: you're gonna remember them, but you won't. And then but 973 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 2: when I actually want to build something out, what I 974 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 2: really need to do is be completely alone, out of 975 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 2: earshot of anyone else. I need to paste back and forth, 976 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,240 Speaker 2: and I need to speak out loud to myself. Yeah, 977 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 2: And I find that that allows me to turn like 978 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,080 Speaker 2: a little idea nugget that I've gotten earlier into something 979 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 2: bigger or I'll do this at a keyboard too, that like, Okay, 980 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 2: I need to write out a bunch of fragments of 981 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 2: sentences that come to me and then and then build 982 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 2: them out from there. But often walking around and speaking 983 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 2: out loud helps me do that, I think, because it's 984 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 2: like when you speak in your own voice again, it's 985 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 2: harder to lie and uh, and it's easier to put 986 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 2: things in a way that makes sense. That like, it's 987 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 2: easy to confuse yourself when you are just putting words 988 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 2: on a screen, harder when you're being out loud. 989 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:02,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. 990 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 2: Do you have that other mode too? Does everything come 991 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 2: from those flashes of inspiration or is there something else 992 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 2: you do too? 993 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: Whenever I have an idea, like something simple, like like 994 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: the idea of doing something good for my body doesn't 995 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: always feel good when I'm doing the thing that's good 996 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: for my body, right, so, and I think, how do 997 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,719 Speaker 1: I say that in a way that's less clunky, or 998 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: how do I say that? Or sometimes I'll have I 999 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: want to share a what I believe is a powerful 1000 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: message or insight or idea, and then rather than just 1001 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: going blair, I think, how do I tell a story 1002 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,400 Speaker 1: about that? You know, it's like humor connects with people emotionally. 1003 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: Stories connect with people emotionally. Data not so much. So 1004 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,200 Speaker 1: I'm always thinking about how do I share this? Like 1005 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,320 Speaker 1: you're thinking, how do I share this that's in a 1006 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,880 Speaker 1: way that's going to make them laugh? I think, how 1007 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,360 Speaker 1: do I share this in a way where like with 1008 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: this podcast, you know, I've got no plan. My plan 1009 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 1: is to talk to you. I don't come with it. 1010 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: You know, I've literally got a pad here that I've 1011 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: scribbled shit on as we go. But there's for me, 1012 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,239 Speaker 1: the less planning, the better right with stuff like this. Now, 1013 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: clearly with comedy you can't do that, and with but 1014 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: even with when I do a like I do corporate days, 1015 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: like a whole day with a group or a half 1016 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 1: day with a group, and I might have I might 1017 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,359 Speaker 1: have one piece of paper with twenty dot points on it, 1018 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,240 Speaker 1: but I don't have video, I don't have PowerPoint because 1019 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,920 Speaker 1: I find when i'm I just get into a state 1020 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 1: because I talk about the stuff that I talk about 1021 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: so much, and I've done so much work with so 1022 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 1: many groups that the more I still am going to 1023 00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: get through my content and the things I want to talk. 1024 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,600 Speaker 1: But the more in in the moment I am, and 1025 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,239 Speaker 1: the more I'm in flow, the deeper the connection, the 1026 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: better experience, the bigger the impact, and the better the 1027 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 1: long term impact on the group. And you can't really 1028 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: you can't really plan that per se. You can't be 1029 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,880 Speaker 1: too strategic because if you're too strategic, you're not in 1030 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 1: the moment. 1031 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think part of the reason that works 1032 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,000 Speaker 2: is the audience wants something that's for them. Yeah, Like 1033 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:33,719 Speaker 2: the reason they brought you out there, Like they could 1034 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 2: have had a video of you, but they didn't. They 1035 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 2: wanted you and so why be a video version of 1036 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 2: yourself live? Like they want to feel like what you 1037 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,640 Speaker 2: are doing is responsive to what they are doing. And yeah, 1038 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,399 Speaker 2: I feel the same way when I'm doing a show 1039 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 2: that like the point of this show isn't that I 1040 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,840 Speaker 2: would have done the same thing any night to anyone, 1041 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 2: Like I'm doing it tonight here for you, and it 1042 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,120 Speaker 2: will never be like this ever again, even if I'm 1043 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,960 Speaker 2: doing stand up, where like I'll give some of these 1044 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,040 Speaker 2: punchlines again, but something will be different. And it's definitely 1045 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 2: true in improv that like this show will never be 1046 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 2: even close to the same ever again, and like there's 1047 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 2: a magic in that, and I think people can feel 1048 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 2: the risk that you're taking and it makes makes them excited. 1049 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 2: I mean, this is also why when an improv show 1050 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,080 Speaker 2: is bad, like it's really bad. But I think the 1051 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,120 Speaker 2: worst improv show is not as bad as the worst 1052 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,480 Speaker 2: stand up show because people know that you're making it up. 1053 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,839 Speaker 2: Like if you thought of jokes beforehand and showed up 1054 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,799 Speaker 2: and read them to people and they sucked, Like that's 1055 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,319 Speaker 2: so much more embarrassing than being like, hey, look, I'm 1056 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,359 Speaker 2: going to take something from nothing and make it in 1057 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,279 Speaker 2: front of you and like, guy, it didn't work out? Well, 1058 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:39,759 Speaker 2: you know, I was, I didn't plan it. 1059 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that whether or not it's stand up, 1060 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: or whether or not it's improv or whether or not 1061 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,239 Speaker 1: it's corporate spaking, or whether or not it's podcasting, or 1062 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,000 Speaker 1: whether or not it's blogging, you're kind of asking the 1063 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,760 Speaker 1: same question, And that question is how do I connect 1064 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: with people? Like how do I create the type of 1065 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 1: connection that I want to create to create the outcome 1066 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,759 Speaker 1: I want? Which on stage, obviously the outcome you want 1067 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: is laughter. You know, when I'm corporate speaking, perhaps it's 1068 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,760 Speaker 1: a bit of inspiration or awareness or a light bulb 1069 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:18,400 Speaker 1: or you know, at the very least enjoyment. On a podcast, 1070 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 1: it's like, how do I have a conversation with a 1071 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,719 Speaker 1: guy I don't know or that I just met, who's 1072 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,040 Speaker 1: on the other side of the world, who's kind of 1073 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 1: nothing like me, but a bit like me. We're kind 1074 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: of similar, kind of different, And then how do I 1075 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 1: meet this person and talk with this person and create 1076 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: connection with him so that he enjoys it as well 1077 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 1: as as producing an experience that people want to keep 1078 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 1: listening to. Like, there's all these variables and also at 1079 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,120 Speaker 1: the same time, not sound as though you're thinking about 1080 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: any of that. Yeah, to be We're just chatting here, Yeah, 1081 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,319 Speaker 1: nothing to see here, just two guys hanging out. 1082 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, uh yeah. I find I mean an improv 1083 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,359 Speaker 2: show is very similar in that way. That And I've 1084 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,320 Speaker 2: always thought that the secret is just believing that things 1085 00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 2: can be interesting. Sometimes, like when I'm in a group 1086 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 2: conversation and I'm sort of on the sidelines watching or 1087 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,239 Speaker 2: you know, just watching people talk, someone will will like 1088 00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,720 Speaker 2: lay down something that I think is really interesting or weird, 1089 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,360 Speaker 2: or something a thread that needs to be pulled on, 1090 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,640 Speaker 2: and people just blow past it, which feels to me 1091 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,640 Speaker 2: like waking up on Christmas morning and like seeing the 1092 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,759 Speaker 2: presence and going, oh right, you know, I'll get to 1093 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,920 Speaker 2: that later. It's like, no, open that, what is that? 1094 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,799 Speaker 2: H And that's the way I approach conversations that when 1095 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 2: I feel like, hey, well you just really weird, I 1096 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 2: want to know more about that same thing. In an 1097 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 2: improv scene, someone does something weird, I want to jump 1098 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,640 Speaker 2: on it. I want to do it more. And I 1099 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,200 Speaker 2: think that's what makes conversations take off, is when you 1100 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,400 Speaker 2: believe that there can be something interesting there and it 1101 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,399 Speaker 2: sucks to be on the other side of this where 1102 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,960 Speaker 2: people don't believe that there's something interesting about you that 1103 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,120 Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll meet new people and they'll last me, what 1104 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,360 Speaker 2: do you do, And I'm like, well, sort of an academic, 1105 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:03,799 Speaker 2: but like, really, what I do is I read this 1106 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,319 Speaker 2: blog and you know, I do improv on the side. 1107 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:08,359 Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh right, cool, cool. 1108 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,320 Speaker 2: Have you seen anything cool on Netflix recently? 1109 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,239 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much there. 1110 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 2: I'm weird. I would have just told you just weird. 1111 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,560 Speaker 2: I read a blog like, am I super lean? Like 1112 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:22,279 Speaker 2: figure this out? But I don't want to tell you 1113 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:23,680 Speaker 2: about the plot of Billions that. 1114 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:24,600 Speaker 3: I just watched. 1115 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can get. 1116 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,399 Speaker 2: That from the internet. You get that from but AI. 1117 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:34,400 Speaker 1: Well, I think sometimes when we're talking people, invariably they 1118 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,279 Speaker 1: want the conversation to come back to them or about them. 1119 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,960 Speaker 1: So there's that, you know, to actually sit with somebody 1120 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:49,640 Speaker 1: who is present and interested in you, and you know like, yeah, 1121 00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:54,080 Speaker 1: that's a that's a an ever present social challenge. I think, well, 1122 00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,759 Speaker 1: here's what I think. I think you're fucking funny, and 1123 00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,480 Speaker 1: I think you're clever. I think you're an awesome communicator. 1124 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,240 Speaker 1: Tell people to name your blog again. 1125 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,880 Speaker 2: It is called experimental history. You can get out of 1126 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,239 Speaker 2: experimental dash history dot com. It's a terrible name for 1127 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,799 Speaker 2: a blog that's really about psychology. But but there you go. 1128 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,720 Speaker 1: And if people want to find you, follow you, connect 1129 00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,680 Speaker 1: with you, spoon you on the couch. How do they 1130 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:21,960 Speaker 1: do that? 1131 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:23,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 1132 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, probably make a copy of my keys when I'm 1133 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:31,240 Speaker 2: not looking again. In after dark, I'm on Twitter at 1134 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 2: a underscore and underscore Mastrianni good luck. There are three 1135 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 2: valves in a row in there. It's a real miz 1136 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,520 Speaker 2: of valves. But probably if you google my name you'll 1137 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 2: find me there. And also just substack for the main places. 1138 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,560 Speaker 1: Sorry, go to the copy for this show and you'll 1139 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,920 Speaker 1: see the spelling of Adam's surname there. Mate, we'll say 1140 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: goodbye affair, but really good to meet you. You're interesting, 1141 00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 1: you're funny. I love the way that you are doing 1142 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,880 Speaker 1: the stuff that you're doing. It's quite atypical, but I 1143 00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 1: feel like you're really connecting with a lot of people. 1144 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,720 Speaker 1: So congrats on what you're doing. And i'd love to 1145 00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:11,920 Speaker 1: get you back and go again. 1146 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, be great. Thanks for having me, really fun talking 1147 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 2: to you. 1148 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,560 Speaker 1: Thanks man, Thanks Melissa. 1149 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:18,439 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 1150 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:23,280 Speaker 1: That was a great podcast, like it went everywhere. Yeah, 1151 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,960 Speaker 1: but just now that we're off heir, who is better? 1152 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,000 Speaker 1: Just kidding see everyone, Love you Bye,