WEBVTT - Why AMP bought crypto (with Shane Oliver) 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.440 Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:17.480 James Kirby. Welcome aboard everybody. What a really interesting time. 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.960 I want to do a couple of things today and 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.800 I think you'll find both of them very interesting. First 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:28.320 of all, a great response, I might say maybe a 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.400 storm of response might be the right phrase for last 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.879 week's show on Crypto with Jackie Clark. Now, what we 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:39.280 did in that show was basically a skeptics corner, okay, 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:44.239 So we put up somebody from institutional Australia, from the 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.640 conventional world of Australian investing, an ASX board director, a 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:54.400 family office member, accountant to give a view on crypto. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.560 And obviously it was a very skeptical view. And it's 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.440 interesting because nearly I think the tempo of the Money 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.959 Pazza's audience has changed, become much more receptive I think, 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:11.039 and enthusiastic in many ways about crypto, though Maney remains skeptical, 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:15.280 including Jackie, and she had some very strong points. Now, 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:17.120 what I want to do today is put the other 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.520 point of view, okay, and again it's institutional Australia. I 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.680 could easily get someone from crypto to talk about crypto. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.840 Why would I do that? If I ask someone in 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.600 real estate to talk about whether it's a good time 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:31.880 to buy property, what would they say? If I ask 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:33.960 a gold miner, is it a good time to buy gold? 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:36.440 What will they say? This is not the nature of 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.000 the exercise to get people from the crypto world to 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.080 talk about it. It's to get people who are conventional 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.280 investors with a lot of respect from our audience and 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.800 from me, to take a view on crypto. Jackie's view 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.320 was very skeptical, as she also in some ways did 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.840 not go into great detail on it, and I understand 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.600 why because that is a typical response. I don't go 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:03.120 if I don't believe in gold mining, I don't go 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.760 so deep best to understand all the aspects of gold mining. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.640 And it's the same with crypto. So who could we 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.040 get to talk about it? And also, very usefully, because 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.360 it's the last show of the year, we're going to 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.200 also have a quick wrap on how the year has gone. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.800 But first, the most interesting organization I think institution in 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.360 Australia in relation to crypto is not a major crypto 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.000 player or a major crypto exchange, believe it or not, 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.840 it's AMP, and AMP plays that role for the simple 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.960 reason they were the first, are the first major financial 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.280 institution as super fun if you don't mind to invest 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:44.000 in crypto. They invested twenty seven million dollars a few 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:48.639 months ago in crypto, substantial investment in many people's eyes, 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:50.680 you can say, is a percentage of AMP is tiny. 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.200 It's twenty seven million. It's twenty seven million, and they 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.040 put it into crypto, and I want to know why 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.840 they are enthusiastic about it. The ideal person, absolutely ideal 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.200 person to talk for AMP is an old friend of 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.679 the show, an old friend of mine, Shane Oliver, the 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:07.600 chief economist. I know him for a long time. He's 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:08.600 been on the show before. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.519 How are you, Shane, I'm good, James, thanks for having 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:13.000 me back. 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.880 I never thought i'd have you on the show explaining 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.280 why your organization spent fifty seven million dollars on crypto. 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.400 And I think it's absolutely fascinating that you did. I 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.600 think it's very plucky that AMP did. It's now we 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:31.880 see sometime later JP Morgan is in there, Walmart is 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:36.640 in there making investments in crypto, putting money behind it 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.480 first and foremost. Can you explain to our listeners, some 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.440 of who are crypto fans, some who remains skeptical, why 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.840 AMP put twenty seven million dollars into bitcoin. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.960 I certainly can, and you might some might say that 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.840 I'm in this skeptical camp too, And I have written 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.760 notes on crypto over the years, starting back class decade. 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.800 But I guess even I always thought that there was 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.360 some potential element of value in there, and that relates 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.440 to two things. The use of the blockchain that underpins 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:15.440 crypto for smart contracts and various uses, and that is 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.080 already evident, and that, particularly in the case of some 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.200 cryptos like Ethereum and Solana and so on, potential uses 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.279 an alternative currency, central bank, digital currencies and so on. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.680 And also with a bitcoin increasing use as a store 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.599 of value alternative to gold. So I know all the 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.440 reasons for skepticism about bitcoin. In fact, I've got a 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.600 list in front of me from the last Oliver's Insights 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.920 I wrote on it, which was earlier last year. It's 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.440 coin itself. Yeah, it's unlikely it become useful for everyday transactions. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.040 You can't buy a cup of coffee, whether or if 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.039 you do, you'll pay, it'll take you a lot of time, 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.039 it'll be slow and all that sort of stuff. It's volatile, 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.640 it's hard to value because it doesn't generate rents and 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.160 dibdends like other assets, and of course it's been associated 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:05.520 with nefarious activities. Are often thought that way. But even 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.880 though I'm skeptical, I think we as an organization AMP 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.000 has responsibility to its members, fiduciary responsibility to look at 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.599 all options, and it could be an emerging asset class. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.880 It has been around now since what two thousand and nine, 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.039 and so it seems like it's becoming part of the 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.679 furniture in terms of the investing worlds. It's increasingly getting 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:31.320 acceptance from regulators. They're taking it seriously and regulatory framework 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.520 is being put around it. So it's moving from the 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.800 wild West, if you like, to some degree into the mainstream. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.280 There's a whole generation out there of digital savvy young 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.000 people investors who are becoming investors, and they're more familiar 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.520 with this. They're probably thinking. In old days they might 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.880 have thought, well, i'm skeptical about the government, I'm skeptical 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.520 about inflation. I want something which is a bit of 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.239 a hedge against that on a long term basis. Previous 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.160 generation might have gone gold is for me. Now some 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.960 of those people are saying maybe bitcoins for me, and 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:06.320 Bitcoin by free nature has resisted the temptation to weaken 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.320 some of the protocols around it, you know, in terms 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.839 of the about proof of work and proof of stake 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.400 and all that sort of stuff that other cryptocurrencies have 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.680 gone down that path. Bitcoin todd with it to some degree. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.560 But I think Bitcoin probably has held back a little 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.080 bit because of this view that it wants to be 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.240 seen as something that's difficult to get hold of and 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.040 that preserves its value to some degree. We all know 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.200 that there's something there's a limit on the amount of 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.160 bitcoin that it can ever be mine to twenty one 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.360 million bitcoins, and we're well through that, and so that's 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.280 going to limited supply. But because of all those things, 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.240 you got this. I can understand the skepticism argument. Yes, 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.600 you've got to be cautious, but I can also understand 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.680 that it's becoming part of the investment universe, and therefore 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.760 we thought we had to consider it. We had a 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.200 lengthy debate. I put up all the skeptical arguments is 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.640 to expect that I might in the end even I 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.360 decided we should have a look into this, and we 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.440 did in May last year. As you say, we invested 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:01.719 twenty seven million dollars in bitcoin when it was then 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.520 priced at sixty two thousand. It was less. It was 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.040 about point zero five percent of our super funds, so 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.640 less than point one percent. Probably close too point one 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.640 percent now because it's gone up in value. 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.440 But it seems to me that between the lines, the 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.080 most compelling argument you've put forward is it a fear 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:20.720 of missing out. 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.760 No, I wouldn't say that's the argument. I think the 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.760 main argument was that it was becoming part of the 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.680 investment universe, and it's moving from the shadows from the 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.440 wild West into the investing universe. And the last year, 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.000 I want I think one of the big factors in 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.240 our minds was the approval of ETFs by US regulators 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.960 on this front in regards to bitcoin. So Trump only 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.720 came along after we'd made the decision in May. And 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:44.840 you can argue that when you think about it, it 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.880 does offer some diversification. It's not perfectly correlated with shares, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.240 and there is some tendency for it as a growth 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.680 asset to go down when shares run to trouble and 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.360 it goes up by more than shares when shares do well, 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.200 but it has an imperfect correlation with shares. 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:00.000 What is your view on it? 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.880 If we accept it to an asseid class and you 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.680 have clearly and you have put your money where your 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.560 mountains if you like AMP, what's your view? Is it 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.240 correlated or is it non correlated? It started as a 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:16.880 sort of libertarian completely anti establishment thing where people would say, oh, 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:18.680 I don't trust the banks, I don't trust the government, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.360 et cetera. It moves and moves towards the mainstream, that's 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.120 beyond doubt. If the US is talking about a strategic 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.240 reserve with crypto, then it is core mainstream. But I 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.040 want to ask you, as an acid class, do you 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.360 see it or do you know yet whether it's correlated 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.920 or non correlated? In other words, is it a gold, 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.120 a digital gold that we can depend on when things 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.040 go wrong, or is it simply correlated where it just 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.400 flies up when the market's hot and flies down when 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:46.160 the market's cold. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.880 Look, I think there is an issue that as time 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.640 goes on it becomes more institutional, it'll be put into 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.640 the growth bucket potentially, and therefore there might be some 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.440 correlation with share markets, and gold has that to some 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.520 degree as well. You think about the initial phases of 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.200 the GFC, gold went down, and it's partly because you 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.160 can see a little bit on the In the last weekend, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.440 US starts dropping bombs on Iran, investors are a little 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.920 bit nervous they can't sell shares because the share market's closed. 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.200 There was some downwards pressure on bitcoin at that point 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.240 in time, and I think the correlation when I last 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.240 looked at it was something like zero point four percent 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.080 against the share market. It's not one percent, so it's 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.520 not correlating one for one, but there is some correlation 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:27.640 there with the share market. And that's partly because as 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.160 it becomes more institutional, then investors see it in that 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.600 particular bucket as a growth asset and when they want 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.720 to sell shares, so crypto might get a bit of 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.199 the selling pressure. But in a broader sense, there is 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.240 another way of looking at it, and that is because 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.040 it has the limited supply. I suspect that over time 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.280 it probably offers more of an inflation hedge than shares 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.720 to because of that limited supply, you could always say 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.600 we should also be skeptical of gold. It's only got 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:54.160 value because we believe it has. 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.080 Become accumulated historical. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.160 Historical experience that it's got value. But these days it 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.920 doesn't do much. It's not used in teeth. You can 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.959 use ceramics, so the porcelaina whatever it is in your 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.200 teeth these days, so it's a bit different. It's used 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.280 in jewelry. But interestingly, that's a tiny fraction of the 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:16.880 actual demand for gold, and there's little relationship between drill 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:18.040 demand and the price. 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.240 So you're seeing that it's just a speculative. 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.160 No, it's a I think it's become what's happening here 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.319 is that bitcoin is almost becoming like a digital version 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.080 of gold. It's a store of value. It's not necessarily 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.320 speculative where people just buy into it on the grounds 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.760 that it may go up, but obviously people hope that 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.079 will occur over time. But you can say, we do 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:45.839 have gold in our portfolios because it's in their commodity exposure. 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.320 So if bitcoin is becoming part of the mainstream, maybe 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:51.480 this case to have bitcoin in there as well. 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.000 And the case is more so than it's a store 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.880 of value rather than it's a bit respeculative option. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.240 Yeah, I would think so, no doubt. Most people say, Okay, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.840 so it's two thousand and nine, it's gone up exponentially, 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:06.800 maybe that'll continue. I think you've got to be a 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.600 little bit careful there. There's the old disclaimer that all 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.040 fund managers use. Past performance is not a guide to 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.480 future performance. It was a new asset class when it 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:16.240 came along in two thousand and nine. If you look 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.200 at it from each look at every four years, it 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.079 goes through a cycle. Each trough to trough in that 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.600 cycle has seen a slowing in the rate of increase 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.560 in the value of bitcoin, or each peak to peak 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:29.360 is sen a slowing in the rate of increase, and 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.920 I think that's normal. It's just like a startup company. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.920 Initially you can make huge gains a lot of risk 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.360 around that, but it will slow down over time. But 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.960 I think ultimately it settles down to providing probably somewhat 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.040 steadier gains, although I yeah, we get to see the 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.600 downcycle which will come of course in bitcoin, but it's 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.040 part and parcel of that new asset class. 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.080 Why do you think no other super fund has followed 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.400 you into the market. It's been quite a while now, 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.120 four five months, but extremely lucrative. Right, you had forty 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:03.400 percent on this particular investment, but most of your peers 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:08.800 institutionally remain so cautious that they will do it. 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:09.640 Let's put it that way. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:14.280 Yeah, we undertook the investment in May. I think by 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.720 the time it was formerly announced it was November December 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.600 or thereabouts, but that's still six seven months ago. I 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.000 suspect that over time you will see some of those 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.640 super funds invest I think a lot of them had 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.240 probably said we're not going to do it and didn't 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.960 even have any plans. I suspect you probably find there's 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.079 a couple out there who probably do have plans. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:34.640 Are you guessing or do you know? 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.319 I'm purely guessing here. I don't have any inside information 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:38.559 about other super funds. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.040 All right, okay, And just one other thing. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.559 Having put in twenty seven million and having made what 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.200 forty percent, do you think AMP will put in more? 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.480 Like As with all asset classes, they're all the precise 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.600 exposers always under review, and we will continue to review 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.800 our exposure to bitcoin along with other assets. So I 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:58.280 can't indicate either way on that. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.080 You can't hold it out, though I'm. 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:01.560 Not gonna roll it out. I'm not going to roll 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:02.160 it in. It sounds like. 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.360 You're used to talking to journalists, that's clearly obvious. 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:09.559 Or we'll take a short break. We'll be back in 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:09.959 a moment. 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.880 Hello, Welcome back to the Australians Money Puzzle podcast. I'm 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.479 James Kirby and I'm talking to Shane Oliver, chief economist 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.800 of AMP, specifically in this first section of the show 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:30.000 about crypto, and of course Shane works for AMPS, the 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.960 chief e columnists there and they were the first financial 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:37.640 institution super fund in Australia to make an investment in crypto. 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.720 It's interesting, Shane, self managed super funds way ahead of 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.520 you in that respect. There's a billion according to the ATO, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.280 there's a billion dollars in SMSF funds in crypto. So 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.320 in that respect it should be no surprise that a 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.480 major fund would sooner or later go into crypto. Now, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.960 I just want to bring in now some of the 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.480 issues that came up in the first show, and I'm 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.480 going to just read the question which is from Scott, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.720 but it also reflects observations by Vince and Henry and 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.720 Dean and Stephen and many others who came in and Basically, 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.280 they wanted to take what Jackie Clark said, some of 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:20.480 her skepticism, if you like, about crypto, and they tackled 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:22.200 it and said that she was the wrong person to 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.560 talk about crypto. That I totally disagree with that she 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.920 is the right person. She is a classic example of 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:33.520 someone who is skeptical and doesn't want the organizations or 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.360 the institution she represents to go in there. That's why 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.080 I have Shane on today. His organization has gone in there. 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.920 So there was a couple of observations there that some 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:43.800 of them are on technicus as I say, which I 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.440 don't think we need even go into, because there is 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.520 still an element I think Shane of belief that if 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.280 you don't believe it, you don't need to know that. Honestly, 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.000 you don't need to know the technicals. But why should 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.760 you go deep into understanding its complexities if you don't 0:14:58.760 --> 0:14:59.680 believe it in the first place. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.520 Wait, you don't need to. You can take the approach 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.840 of just investing broadly. I'm not an investor in individual things. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:09.840 You had a question in there which you haven't asked. 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:11.720 Do I have it personally? No, I don't have it personally. 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:12.920 It was on my list story. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.520 But then I don't have BHP or CBA or any 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.360 other thing. Personally, I'm a macro guy. I invest in 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.880 the big picture, and so therefore I have my money 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.840 and Super and it's in AMP funds, and might have 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.120 some money outside Super and his index funds. But obviously, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.040 when you buy a property, it's a specific investment, like 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:31.800 the family home, the one I'm sitting in right now. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:33.880 But that doesn't prove that I have a negative or 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.360 positive view on it or not supportive of the decision 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.640 by AMP. The fact that I haven't bought it individually, 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.600 but because I haven't bought other things individually either. But 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.400 I think, just on that SEMSF observation, we had members 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.600 over the last few years have been asking should you buy, 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.360 and Crypto always get a little bit worried because by 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.440 the time they ask, it's usually when crypto has gone 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.560 up in value double to or forty percent. No one 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.000 of course was asking when it collapsed eighty percent through 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.840 one of those downturns. But so it doesn't surprise me 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:03.280 that SMSF investors are already in there because we had 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.080 members who are interested, and that indicated to us that 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.360 we should be looking at it, which we did. But 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.040 I've lost track of your original question here because you've 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.320 raised a few points there, But hopefully that's covered it. 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:15.880 I did really a few points. Look. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.280 One of the things, obviously was a lot of the 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:23.760 crypto people when someone is skeptical about it, the crypto enthusiast. 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.160 If you don't see you don't understand this, you don't 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:27.520 understand this, you don't understand how. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:28.040 It all works. 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.520 I don't understand CSL. CSL is one of the top 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.880 ten companies in Australia. I don't understand what they do. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:35.520 We've had that one from Central Banks as well. They 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.360 don't understand it. On the one hand, I think if 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.360 you don't understand it and you don't feel comfortable, then 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.920 you shouldn't invest as an individual. That's true, but then 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.280 it is also true you don't have to fully understand 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.320 everything to invest in it. And in my super funds 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.160 or my investments outside super well, I haven't bought specific stocks. 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.240 There are some companies in there which I won't understand 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.920 their model and what they're doing and why, but I 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.680 don't need to. And that's the key here. If you've 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:01.840 got all your money invested in bitcoin, then I think 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:03.680 you should understand it. But if you've got a well 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.880 diversified portfolio, you just see it part of the investment universe. 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.919 You just got some exposure in there, just like you've 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.360 got some exposure of other things, then you probably don't 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.840 need to have the same degree of understanding. And it 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.080 is a little bit technical when you get into it. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.600 I've in the interests of finding out what it was 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.119 several years ago. I've read a lot about bitcoin, but 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.960 I don't consider myself an expert. And if you put 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:25.800 me up head to head with some of the people 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:27.560 who might be listening to this, who spend a lot 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.040 of time, then they would run rings around me, And 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.480 that's fair enough. I don't disagree with that. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.480 It's very interesting you see that. So there was always 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.800 that traditional response, if you don't understand it, don't buy it. 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.200 But really there's a point of which that stops. CSL 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.800 would not be where it is today if everyone, yeah, 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:44.720 it didn't buy it because it didn't understand it. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.040 That's right. Sometimes you do have to have a bit 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.320 of faith in these things. And I think the broader 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.200 issue is if you don't understand it, you're fair enough. 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.520 Maybe you look into it. That's one way to go 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.000 about it. The other approach is you don't understand it, 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:58.960 but you think there might be something in it, then 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.760 have it as part of a broad diversified portfolio. Don't 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:02.919 just put all your eggs into it. 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.280 Very interesting and of course now people can obviously everyone 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.120 listening news now that you don't have to go off 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.120 to some bitcoin exchange and go through all the red 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.600 tape if you like to get involved. You can just 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.320 buy an ETF and the ets are regulated. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.679 That's incredibly important because it was one of the reasons 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:21.440 I think a lot of people were skeptical because they'd 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.280 heard it about all the problems on the exchanges, money 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:25.840 being hacked and all that sort of stuff, and the 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.560 exchanges running into trouble, that this is issue a few 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.560 years ago. I think that was when it was part 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.840 of the wild West, and that's now starting to change, 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.399 which is good. And by the way, we haven't actually 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.200 bought bitcoin, the physical bitcoin. You don't have physical bitcoin. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:40.360 We bought futures. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.679 Was that because that was the only way to do it, chin. 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.720 Or No, It's just the easiest way. As a super fund. 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.240 It was just an easy way for us to do it. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.160 I mean oftentimes we'll buy we don't buy physical shares, 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.680 will often buy futures on them or maybe the ETF. 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.960 So it's just another way of getting exposure. It's an 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:56.920 easy way to get in and out. It's quite liquid. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.680 That's just start and parcels the way we do things. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.640 Those features are obviously tied to bitcoin, so it's effectively 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:03.600 Bitcoin exposures. 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.160 So yes, course, yes, yeah, yeah, but it's just it's 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:07.840 just a particular structure, all right. 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:08.760 Andrew said. 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.840 The reason that Jackie Clark and allegedly the Governor of 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.000 the Reserve Bank and many others who should know better 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.080 say they don't understand bitcoin is that they want to 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.119 think of it as an investment that should have an 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:25.280 intrinsic value. It's not, and it doesn't. Bitcoin itself may 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.399 not survive, but now we know how it works, the 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.840 genie won't go back into the bottle. Bitcoin or whatever succeeds. 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.639 It will be better understood when its price goes up 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.639 at the same time as intrinsically valued investments go down. 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:43.040 This is a core sticking point with many expert investors, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.520