Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.
Speaker 1: The discovery of a caravan full of explosives on the
Speaker 1: outskirts of Sydney earlier this year triggered widespread panic and fear.
Speaker 1: There were reports of a list of Jewish targets, and
Speaker 1: right away the New South Wales Premier and the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister called it terrorism. In the months that followed, the
Speaker 1: threat seemed to grow, with Peter Dutton blaming the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister for putting Australians at risk, but all the while
Speaker 1: police were warning the whole thing could be a hoax. Today,
Speaker 1: special correspondent for the Saturday Paper Jason Cottsucus on how
Speaker 1: a criminal conjob became a political football and the implications
Speaker 1: for our national security. It's Tuesday, March eighteenth, So, Jason,
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the year we got news that
Speaker 1: there had been this caravan full of explosives discovered near Sydney.
Speaker 1: And this was a big and kind of strange story
Speaker 1: right from the very get go. So what did you
Speaker 1: think when you first heard of it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ruby, I mean this was a pretty dramatic story.
Speaker 2: When the Daily Telegraph broke it on the twenty ninth
Speaker 2: of January, they published this story online with the headline
Speaker 2: caravan of explosives found on property north of Sydney, breaking news.
Speaker 3: The Daily Telegraph is reporting a caravan laden with explosives
Speaker 3: and a note with addresses of Jewish targets, including a synagogue,
Speaker 3: was found.
Speaker 2: And the article went on to say that not only
Speaker 2: was this caravan laden with very powerful industrial explosives, but
Speaker 2: there was a note sitting alongside with the address of
Speaker 2: a number of possible Jewish targets and a message that
Speaker 2: said f the Jews.
Speaker 3: New South Wales police are treating it as a credible
Speaker 3: terror threat and the new.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was alarmed, I guess like most other Australians
Speaker 2: who saw that headline.
Speaker 1: Right. So what happened now?
Speaker 2: So soon after the story when online, the New South
Speaker 2: Wales Premier Chris Mins held a press conference alongside some
Speaker 2: senior New South Wales police officers, including Deputy Police Commissioner
Speaker 2: David Hudson.
Speaker 4: As the Premier indicated on the nineteenth of January this year,
Speaker 4: the suburb of Dural police were contacted and subsequently recovered
Speaker 4: a caravan on a residential property.
Speaker 2: What was really interesting and perhaps missed by a lot
Speaker 2: of people. Was the fact that right from that first
Speaker 2: press conference, David Hudson made it clear that one of
Speaker 2: the theories that police were pursuing was that this caravan
Speaker 2: could be part of a very carefully staged hoax, and
Speaker 2: Hudson said that New South Wales police were not prepared
Speaker 2: to declare the discovery of the caravan as a terrorist incidents.
Speaker 2: But right at the end of the press conference, New
Speaker 2: South Wales Premier Chris Mins brought it up himself and
Speaker 2: he chose to focus on the fact that the explosives
Speaker 2: had a potential blast radius of up to forty meters
Speaker 2: and then he went on to call it terrorism. And
Speaker 2: just to quote the Premier directly, he said, this is
Speaker 2: the discovery of a potential mass casualty event. There's only
Speaker 2: one way of calling it out and that is terrorism.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: So what did you think when you heard that, Jason,
Speaker 1: that the police was saying that this was an ongoing investigation,
Speaker 1: but the Premiere at the same time is saying this
Speaker 1: is terrorism.
Speaker 2: Well. I spoke to doctor John Coin about this. Ruby
Speaker 2: he's the director of National Security Programs at the Australian
Speaker 2: Strategic Policy Institute, and he told me that the public
Speaker 2: shouldn't be told about a terror threat until intelligence agencies
Speaker 2: have confirmed its credibility, because if you talk about it
Speaker 2: too soon, not only do you compromise the investigation potentially,
Speaker 2: but you also create unnecessary panic in the community. Nonetheless,
Speaker 2: right after Chris Mins called it terrorism, the next morning,
Speaker 2: the Minister was asked the same question on ABC Radio
Speaker 2: by the ABC's Craig roof Castle whether he also classified
Speaker 2: the discovery of the caravan as terrorism, and the Prime
Speaker 2: Minister applied, I certainly do, and he said I agree
Speaker 2: with Chris.
Speaker 1: Mins, right, So tell me more than about what police
Speaker 1: were actually finding out about what had happened and the
Speaker 1: leads that they had by the time that they spoke
Speaker 1: to the media about it.
Speaker 2: Well, this actually goes back to early December last year.
Speaker 2: The caravan had been sitting idle for weeks on Deri
Speaker 2: Wong Road in Dural, which is a quiet suburb northwest
Speaker 2: of Sydney, and then in early December a local resident
Speaker 2: decided that this caravan was becoming a bit of a
Speaker 2: road hazard and so he toed it onto his property
Speaker 2: for safety reasons really, and then it just sat there
Speaker 2: on his property for around seven weeks until January nineteen
Speaker 2: when that same man was concerned and curious enough to
Speaker 2: decide to force his way into the caravan see what
Speaker 2: was inside, and when he did, he discovered a case
Speaker 2: of Powergol that's the brand name industrial explosives, and alongside
Speaker 2: that the note listing a number of potential Jewish targets,
Speaker 2: and one of those potential targets was a Sydney synagogue.
Speaker 2: This resident immediately called the police and within hours New
Speaker 2: South Wales Police and the Australian Federal Police launched a
Speaker 2: covert joint counter terrorism investigation which also involved AISIO and
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Crime Commission, and they quickly concluded
Speaker 2: that the caravan and its contents posed no direct threat
Speaker 2: to the public. They also noted that there was no
Speaker 2: detonator present with the explosives and that the caravan had
Speaker 2: been very easy to find, so right from the start
Speaker 2: investigators were treating the caravan as a possibly fabricated terror plot.
Speaker 1: Up after the break, who was behind the caravan and
Speaker 1: how the hoax was hijacked?
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Speaker 1: Jason, you've been looking into the caravan of explosives that
Speaker 1: was discovered a couple of months back and how its
Speaker 1: existence came to stir up this very real fears of
Speaker 1: a major terrorist attack and dominated political debate. One of
Speaker 1: the central parts of that debate was about how the
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Anthony have been easy handled this. So tell
Speaker 1: me about what he did and what he said publicly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this immediately became just one of those political
Speaker 2: footballs that both sides are contesting very very strongly. Once
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister refused to say publicly when he had
Speaker 2: been briefed about the caravan, the Federal Opposition went on
Speaker 2: the attack straight away.
Speaker 5: Thanks, mister speaker.
Speaker 3: My questions to the Prime minister when was the Prime
Speaker 3: Minister first informed of the planned mass casualty terrort?
Speaker 1: When was the Prime Minister first informed of the planned
Speaker 1: mass casualty terror attack.
Speaker 4: When did the Prime Minister first become aware of the
Speaker 4: planned mass casualty terror attack against Sydney's Jewish community.
Speaker 2: A few days later, Opposition leader Peter Dutton called for
Speaker 2: an independent inquiry into the government's handling of the caravan investigation.
Speaker 2: Peter Dutton said, I think the Prime Minister should appoint
Speaker 2: an eminent Australian from the law enforcement and intelligence community
Speaker 2: to have a transparent look at what has failed here,
Speaker 2: because we can't have what could have been the most
Speaker 2: catastrophic terrorist event in our country's history and the Prime
Speaker 2: Minister doesn't know about it until the public does.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what were you thinking, Jason, As you were
Speaker 1: watching the Opposition latch onto this line of attack and
Speaker 1: run with it for as long as it did, you
Speaker 1: get the sense that it was working.
Speaker 2: Politically speaking, I do think the Opposition's attacks were cutting through.
Speaker 2: But what I noticed was that the longer this story
Speaker 2: went on, the more hyperbolic the language became. And when
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister faced Parliament for the first time this
Speaker 2: year and he was asked about the discovery of this caravan,
Speaker 2: instead of it being a potential mass casualty terrorist incident,
Speaker 2: in the words of the Opposition, it had become a
Speaker 2: planned mass casualty terror attack against Sydney's Jewish community.
Speaker 6: It's an ongoing investigation and what you do when you
Speaker 6: have an ongoing investigation is that you take the advice
Speaker 6: of the Australian Federal Police and the AGO Director General.
Speaker 2: And what fascinated me was that the Prime Minister told
Speaker 2: Parliament that Peter Dutton had himself been offered briefings on
Speaker 2: the matter, but hadn't asked for one.
Speaker 6: Now, the leader of the Opposition is always made available
Speaker 6: briefings when they're requested. He has not requested a briefing
Speaker 6: at this time.
Speaker 2: I spoke to a labor adviser about this, who said
Speaker 2: that the reason they believed that Peter Dutton had not
Speaker 2: asked for a briefing was that it was already becoming
Speaker 2: clear to the people who were investigating the discovery of
Speaker 2: this caravan that it was not really part of a
Speaker 2: planned terror attack, and that if Peter Dutton had requested
Speaker 2: a face to face briefing, he would have been told that.
Speaker 2: So that was suggesting that Peter Dutton deliberately stayed away
Speaker 2: from a direct briefing from the government. Because he wanted
Speaker 2: to keep stoking the line of attack that he got
Speaker 2: up and running since the caravan had been discuss and
Speaker 2: didn't want to have to owne up to the fact
Speaker 2: that it was pretty obvious to have Brown investigating the
Speaker 2: caravan that it actually had nothing to do with a
Speaker 2: real planned terrorist incident.
Speaker 1: Right, that's pretty extraordinary. So tell me then, Jason, what
Speaker 1: the police ultimately discovered about what really happened with the
Speaker 1: explosives in the caravan and who was behind it.
Speaker 2: So on Saturday February fifteenth, the Sydney Morning Herald reported
Speaker 2: that police had turned their attention to organize crime gangs
Speaker 2: as the likely source of the explosives. Police also confirmed
Speaker 2: in this story that the Powergoll explosive found inside the
Speaker 2: caravan were around forty years old, and that Underworld Crime
Speaker 2: figures had offered to reveal plans about the caravan weeks
Speaker 2: before its discovery by police, hoping to use it as
Speaker 2: leverage for a reduced prison to they'n On March ten,
Speaker 2: police confirmed that this was a little con job rather
Speaker 2: than an ideologically driven attack, and then just in the
Speaker 2: last day or two, police have revealed that they think
Speaker 2: the mastermind behind this whole hoax was a Sydney businessman
Speaker 2: who has since fled overseas. His name is say it
Speaker 2: rhan Aksa. He's been on bail since twenty twenty two
Speaker 2: facing serious and drug charges and police now believe that
Speaker 2: he's a key person of interest in this joint investigation.
Speaker 1: So how has the government reacted Jason, now that it's
Speaker 1: been revealed that this was actually a hoax all along.
Speaker 2: Well, what we're seeing now, Ruby, I think is the
Speaker 2: kind of counter attack if you like. It's with the
Speaker 2: full results of the joint police investigation now out in
Speaker 2: the open. The Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke came out
Speaker 2: leaning the attack against the opposition quite deliberately.
Speaker 7: Peter Dudden made a decision to not find out the
Speaker 7: facts from the Australian Federal Police, to ignore the advice
Speaker 7: from as in lowering the temperature simply because it suited
Speaker 7: his self promotion and ambitions.
Speaker 2: And he went on to say, now that is the
Speaker 2: very definition of being reckless with national security. But it's
Speaker 2: precisely what he.
Speaker 1: Did, okay. So even though this was in fact a
Speaker 1: hoax designed to get reduced prison sentences for criminals, it
Speaker 1: still had the effect of causing a lot of fear,
Speaker 1: particularly among the Jewish community who appeared to be the target. So,
Speaker 1: given that, what is your view, Jason on how our
Speaker 1: political leaders handled this and what the cost is when
Speaker 1: something as sensitive as this becomes politicized to this degree.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think an unfortunate consequence of when
Speaker 2: political attacks get heated in instances like this is that
Speaker 2: the real incident, what actually happened, can sometimes be obscured
Speaker 2: by the political heat. Even though this was a hoax,
Speaker 2: it still had the effect of a real terrorist incident
Speaker 2: in the sense that it alarmed a lot of people.
Speaker 2: And from a national security perspective, if we keep being
Speaker 2: exposed to false alarms like this at risks desensitizing the
Speaker 2: public and making them either overly reactive or dismissive in
Speaker 2: the face of real threat when they occur. Adversaries can
Speaker 2: exploit this, and it still has the effect of undermining
Speaker 2: social coesi and democratic resilience.
Speaker 1: Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Thanks hand be great to chat.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, Australia should have US style
Speaker 1: organized crime laws to deal with alleged criminal behavior in
Speaker 1: the CFMU. The opposition leader has announced. Peter Dutton called
Speaker 1: them a toorious union, a modern day mafia operation, and
Speaker 1: said the new laws would give the police power to
Speaker 1: target the leaders of groups that engage in criminal behavior,
Speaker 1: even if the leaders are not directly involved. His comments
Speaker 1: follow Victorian Premier to Cinta Allen's announcement that there will
Speaker 1: be a new Victorian Police task Force dedicated to investigating
Speaker 1: allegations against the Union, a move mister Dutton described as
Speaker 1: wet lettuce and the Deputy leader of the Green senator
Speaker 1: Marine Ferruci has called on the federal government to protect
Speaker 1: the integrity of Australia's higher education sector following interventions from
Speaker 1: the Trump administration. Australian researchers working on projects jointly funded
Speaker 1: by the United States have revealed that they have been
Speaker 1: sent a questionnaire asking about a range of issues, including
Speaker 1: any links to China and asking about their position on
Speaker 1: gender ideology. Doctor Ferruki says the intervention is outrageous and
Speaker 1: said the federal government must increase research funding in order
Speaker 1: to guard against political manipulation. I'm Ruby Jones. This is
Speaker 1: seven am. Thanks for listening.