WEBVTT - Peter Dutton and the caravan of explosives 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:09.280 From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.040 The discovery of a caravan full of explosives on the 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:16.120 outskirts of Sydney earlier this year triggered widespread panic and fear. 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.360 There were reports of a list of Jewish targets, and 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.480 right away the New South Wales Premier and the Prime 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.040 Minister called it terrorism. In the months that followed, the 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.680 threat seemed to grow, with Peter Dutton blaming the Prime 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.240 Minister for putting Australians at risk, but all the while 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.840 police were warning the whole thing could be a hoax. Today, 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.959 special correspondent for the Saturday Paper Jason Cottsucus on how 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.720 a criminal conjob became a political football and the implications 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:54.960 for our national security. It's Tuesday, March eighteenth, So, Jason, 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:56.880 at the beginning of the year we got news that 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:01.640 there had been this caravan full of explosives discovered near Sydney. 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.480 And this was a big and kind of strange story 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:07.640 right from the very get go. So what did you 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.000 think when you first heard of it? 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.720 Yeah, Ruby, I mean this was a pretty dramatic story. 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:16.039 When the Daily Telegraph broke it on the twenty ninth 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.640 of January, they published this story online with the headline 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:24.280 caravan of explosives found on property north of Sydney, breaking news. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:28.440 The Daily Telegraph is reporting a caravan laden with explosives 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:33.000 and a note with addresses of Jewish targets, including a synagogue, 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:33.600 was found. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.000 And the article went on to say that not only 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:40.480 was this caravan laden with very powerful industrial explosives, but 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:43.560 there was a note sitting alongside with the address of 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.520 a number of possible Jewish targets and a message that 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:48.760 said f the Jews. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.880 New South Wales police are treating it as a credible 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:53.600 terror threat and the new. 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.520 Yeah, I was alarmed, I guess like most other Australians 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.520 who saw that headline. 0:01:58.920 --> 0:01:59.960 Right. So what happened now? 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.080 So soon after the story when online, the New South 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:07.120 Wales Premier Chris Mins held a press conference alongside some 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.760 senior New South Wales police officers, including Deputy Police Commissioner 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:12.520 David Hudson. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.720 As the Premier indicated on the nineteenth of January this year, 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.920 the suburb of Dural police were contacted and subsequently recovered 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.000 a caravan on a residential property. 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.000 What was really interesting and perhaps missed by a lot 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.000 of people. Was the fact that right from that first 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.960 press conference, David Hudson made it clear that one of 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.760 the theories that police were pursuing was that this caravan 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.360 could be part of a very carefully staged hoax, and 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.440 Hudson said that New South Wales police were not prepared 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:50.240 to declare the discovery of the caravan as a terrorist incidents. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:52.799 But right at the end of the press conference, New 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.520 South Wales Premier Chris Mins brought it up himself and 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.799 he chose to focus on the fact that the explosives 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.400 had a potential blast radius of up to forty meters 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.440 and then he went on to call it terrorism. And 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.360 just to quote the Premier directly, he said, this is 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.399 the discovery of a potential mass casualty event. There's only 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.519 one way of calling it out and that is terrorism. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:14.840 Right. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.480 So what did you think when you heard that, Jason, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.120 that the police was saying that this was an ongoing investigation, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.080 but the Premiere at the same time is saying this 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:25.200 is terrorism. 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.959 Well. I spoke to doctor John Coin about this. Ruby 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:34.079 he's the director of National Security Programs at the Australian 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.400 Strategic Policy Institute, and he told me that the public 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:42.960 shouldn't be told about a terror threat until intelligence agencies 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.000 have confirmed its credibility, because if you talk about it 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:51.520 too soon, not only do you compromise the investigation potentially, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:56.280 but you also create unnecessary panic in the community. Nonetheless, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.600 right after Chris Mins called it terrorism, the next morning, 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.440 the Minister was asked the same question on ABC Radio 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.240 by the ABC's Craig roof Castle whether he also classified 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.680 the discovery of the caravan as terrorism, and the Prime 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:14.160 Minister applied, I certainly do, and he said I agree 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:15.040 with Chris. 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.520 Mins, right, So tell me more than about what police 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:21.240 were actually finding out about what had happened and the 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.320 leads that they had by the time that they spoke 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:25.400 to the media about it. 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.400 Well, this actually goes back to early December last year. 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.360 The caravan had been sitting idle for weeks on Deri 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.040 Wong Road in Dural, which is a quiet suburb northwest 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.320 of Sydney, and then in early December a local resident 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.120 decided that this caravan was becoming a bit of a 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.960 road hazard and so he toed it onto his property 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.400 for safety reasons really, and then it just sat there 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.000 on his property for around seven weeks until January nineteen 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:57.680 when that same man was concerned and curious enough to 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.320 decide to force his way into the caravan see what 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.120 was inside, and when he did, he discovered a case 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:09.160 of Powergol that's the brand name industrial explosives, and alongside 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.920 that the note listing a number of potential Jewish targets, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.720 and one of those potential targets was a Sydney synagogue. 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:24.240 This resident immediately called the police and within hours New 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.640 South Wales Police and the Australian Federal Police launched a 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:32.880 covert joint counter terrorism investigation which also involved AISIO and 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.200 the New South Wales Crime Commission, and they quickly concluded 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.880 that the caravan and its contents posed no direct threat 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.840 to the public. They also noted that there was no 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:48.440 detonator present with the explosives and that the caravan had 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.680 been very easy to find, so right from the start 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:57.240 investigators were treating the caravan as a possibly fabricated terror plot. 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.120 Up after the break, who was behind the caravan and 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:04.560 how the hoax was hijacked? 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.320 Hi, I'm Daniel James seven Am tells stories that need 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.279 to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:21.320 independence and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.040 the election, we'll bring you an extra episode to break 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.720 down the biggest political moments of the week. If you 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.160 enjoy seven Am, the best way you can support us 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.800 is by making a contribution at seven am podcast dot 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.880 com dot au slash support. Thanks for listening and supporting 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:37.320 our work. 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.040 Jason, you've been looking into the caravan of explosives that 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.640 was discovered a couple of months back and how its 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.359 existence came to stir up this very real fears of 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:55.280 a major terrorist attack and dominated political debate. One of 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.479 the central parts of that debate was about how the 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.200 Prime Minister Anthony have been easy handled this. So tell 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.600 me about what he did and what he said publicly. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.719 Yeah, So this immediately became just one of those political 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:14.239 footballs that both sides are contesting very very strongly. Once 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.600 the Prime Minister refused to say publicly when he had 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.640 been briefed about the caravan, the Federal Opposition went on 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.000 the attack straight away. 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:23.720 Thanks, mister speaker. 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.400 My questions to the Prime minister when was the Prime 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.080 Minister first informed of the planned mass casualty terrort? 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.640 When was the Prime Minister first informed of the planned 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.119 mass casualty terror attack. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.440 When did the Prime Minister first become aware of the 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.000 planned mass casualty terror attack against Sydney's Jewish community. 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.400 A few days later, Opposition leader Peter Dutton called for 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.760 an independent inquiry into the government's handling of the caravan investigation. 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.520 Peter Dutton said, I think the Prime Minister should appoint 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.520 an eminent Australian from the law enforcement and intelligence community 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.800 to have a transparent look at what has failed here, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.920 because we can't have what could have been the most 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.120 catastrophic terrorist event in our country's history and the Prime 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.680 Minister doesn't know about it until the public does. 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.880 Okay, So what were you thinking, Jason, As you were 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.920 watching the Opposition latch onto this line of attack and 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:18.800 run with it for as long as it did, you 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:20.360 get the sense that it was working. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:25.360 Politically speaking, I do think the Opposition's attacks were cutting through. 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.560 But what I noticed was that the longer this story 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:34.400 went on, the more hyperbolic the language became. And when 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.280 the Prime Minister faced Parliament for the first time this 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.560 year and he was asked about the discovery of this caravan, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.559 instead of it being a potential mass casualty terrorist incident, 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.480 in the words of the Opposition, it had become a 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:53.240 planned mass casualty terror attack against Sydney's Jewish community. 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:58.200 It's an ongoing investigation and what you do when you 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.880 have an ongoing investigation is that you take the advice 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.880 of the Australian Federal Police and the AGO Director General. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.000 And what fascinated me was that the Prime Minister told 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:14.200 Parliament that Peter Dutton had himself been offered briefings on 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:15.920 the matter, but hadn't asked for one. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.920 Now, the leader of the Opposition is always made available 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:24.480 briefings when they're requested. He has not requested a briefing 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:25.760 at this time. 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.440 I spoke to a labor adviser about this, who said 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.920 that the reason they believed that Peter Dutton had not 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.840 asked for a briefing was that it was already becoming 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.840 clear to the people who were investigating the discovery of 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.719 this caravan that it was not really part of a 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.880 planned terror attack, and that if Peter Dutton had requested 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.120 a face to face briefing, he would have been told that. 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.120 So that was suggesting that Peter Dutton deliberately stayed away 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.240 from a direct briefing from the government. Because he wanted 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.800 to keep stoking the line of attack that he got 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.800 up and running since the caravan had been discuss and 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:02.440 didn't want to have to owne up to the fact 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.320 that it was pretty obvious to have Brown investigating the 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.560 caravan that it actually had nothing to do with a 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.800 real planned terrorist incident. 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:16.439 Right, that's pretty extraordinary. So tell me then, Jason, what 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:21.560 the police ultimately discovered about what really happened with the 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:23.920 explosives in the caravan and who was behind it. 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.880 So on Saturday February fifteenth, the Sydney Morning Herald reported 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.199 that police had turned their attention to organize crime gangs 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.040 as the likely source of the explosives. Police also confirmed 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:41.200 in this story that the Powergoll explosive found inside the 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.560 caravan were around forty years old, and that Underworld Crime 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.520 figures had offered to reveal plans about the caravan weeks 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.040 before its discovery by police, hoping to use it as 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:57.440 leverage for a reduced prison to they'n On March ten, 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.680 police confirmed that this was a little con job rather 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.160 than an ideologically driven attack, and then just in the 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.240 last day or two, police have revealed that they think 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:14.920 the mastermind behind this whole hoax was a Sydney businessman 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.959 who has since fled overseas. His name is say it 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.240 rhan Aksa. He's been on bail since twenty twenty two 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:26.720 facing serious and drug charges and police now believe that 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.920 he's a key person of interest in this joint investigation. 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.120 So how has the government reacted Jason, now that it's 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.959 been revealed that this was actually a hoax all along. 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:39.920 Well, what we're seeing now, Ruby, I think is the 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.680 kind of counter attack if you like. It's with the 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.440 full results of the joint police investigation now out in 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.880 the open. The Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke came out 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.040 leaning the attack against the opposition quite deliberately. 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.120 Peter Dudden made a decision to not find out the 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.440 facts from the Australian Federal Police, to ignore the advice 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:03.920 from as in lowering the temperature simply because it suited 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.199 his self promotion and ambitions. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.360 And he went on to say, now that is the 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.400 very definition of being reckless with national security. But it's 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:13.920 precisely what he. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.720 Did, okay. So even though this was in fact a 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.360 hoax designed to get reduced prison sentences for criminals, it 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.160 still had the effect of causing a lot of fear, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.880 particularly among the Jewish community who appeared to be the target. So, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.360 given that, what is your view, Jason on how our 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:35.120 political leaders handled this and what the cost is when 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:40.000 something as sensitive as this becomes politicized to this degree. 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.600 Well, I mean, I think an unfortunate consequence of when 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:50.000 political attacks get heated in instances like this is that 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.800 the real incident, what actually happened, can sometimes be obscured 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.200 by the political heat. Even though this was a hoax, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.959 it still had the effect of a real terrorist incident 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.400 in the sense that it alarmed a lot of people. 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.680 And from a national security perspective, if we keep being 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.200 exposed to false alarms like this at risks desensitizing the 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:20.080 public and making them either overly reactive or dismissive in 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.679 the face of real threat when they occur. Adversaries can 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.640 exploit this, and it still has the effect of undermining 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.280 social coesi and democratic resilience. 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.320 Jason, thank you so much for your time. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:35.000 Thanks hand be great to chat. 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.760 Also in the news today, Australia should have US style 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.920 organized crime laws to deal with alleged criminal behavior in 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.760 the CFMU. The opposition leader has announced. Peter Dutton called 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.560 them a toorious union, a modern day mafia operation, and 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.680 said the new laws would give the police power to 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.520 target the leaders of groups that engage in criminal behavior, 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.120 even if the leaders are not directly involved. His comments 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.000 follow Victorian Premier to Cinta Allen's announcement that there will 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.200 be a new Victorian Police task Force dedicated to investigating 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.920 allegations against the Union, a move mister Dutton described as 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.600 wet lettuce and the Deputy leader of the Green senator 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.200 Marine Ferruci has called on the federal government to protect 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:31.480 the integrity of Australia's higher education sector following interventions from 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.920 the Trump administration. Australian researchers working on projects jointly funded 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:37.840 by the United States have revealed that they have been 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.480 sent a questionnaire asking about a range of issues, including 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.080 any links to China and asking about their position on 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.400 gender ideology. Doctor Ferruki says the intervention is outrageous and 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.280 said the federal government must increase research funding in order 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.040 to guard against political manipulation. I'm Ruby Jones. This is 0:14:55.080 --> 0:15:07.480 seven am. Thanks for listening.