WEBVTT - The Train family murders: A new age of radicalisation

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<v Speaker 1>That yet Kelly Rachel announce her.

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<v Speaker 2>She's on us first year.

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<v Speaker 3>So the four officers arrive at the property.

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<v Speaker 2>They are Constables Rachel Mcrowe twenty nine, Matthew Arnold twenty six,

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<v Speaker 2>Keeley Broth twenty eight, and Randall Kerr twenty eight, very

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<v Speaker 2>young junior police officers.

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<v Speaker 3>They find that the gate is locked.

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<v Speaker 2>They jump the fence and they start walking up the

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<v Speaker 2>fairly long driveway towards the house.

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<v Speaker 1>The property these four officers are walking to is owned

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<v Speaker 1>by Gareth Train and his wife Stacy. The police are

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<v Speaker 1>responding to a routine welfare check for Gareth's brother Nathaniel.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't see the two brothers, Gareth and Nathaniel lying

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<v Speaker 2>on the ground in full camo, aiming rifles at them,

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<v Speaker 2>and so what followed has been described as both an

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<v Speaker 2>ambush and an execution. As Arnold was stepping over the fence,

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<v Speaker 2>the brothers shot and killed him. They shot mcrow three times.

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<v Speaker 2>Kirk managed to run behind a tree and from there

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<v Speaker 2>get back to the police cars, which were under heavy fire.

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<v Speaker 2>He was shot in the hip and then he managed

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<v Speaker 2>to get away and drive for help.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm in the car.

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<v Speaker 2>Gareth took Arnold's handgun off him, and as she planned

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<v Speaker 2>for her life, he killed the wounded mcrow, who was

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<v Speaker 2>on the ground.

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<v Speaker 1>With two officers down, The trains continued their ambush.

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<v Speaker 2>Roth was hiding in the long grass while all this

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<v Speaker 2>was happening, and then the brothers set fire to the

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<v Speaker 2>remaining police car and also that long grass in which

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<v Speaker 2>he was hiding.

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<v Speaker 3>They were trying to drive her out into the open.

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<v Speaker 1>At this point a neighbor he's the noise of gunfire

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<v Speaker 1>and sees smoke. He comes to help, shot dead too.

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<v Speaker 1>The remaining two police officers managed to get away and

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<v Speaker 1>call for backup.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, these two of them, I think I've been

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<v Speaker 5>shot at cut.

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<v Speaker 2>And over the next six hours a siege ensued. They

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<v Speaker 2>refused to negotiate or surrender, and eventually all three trains

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<v Speaker 2>were shot and filled by the.

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<v Speaker 3>Police had to drive away a bit.

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<v Speaker 1>This siege, where six people, including two police officers, lost

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<v Speaker 1>their lives, has been labeled Australia's first fundamentalist Christian terrorist attack.

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<v Speaker 1>The train family believed the end of days had come

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<v Speaker 1>from Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM Today.

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<v Speaker 1>Journalist and author of the Believer, Sarah Krasmastin on what

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<v Speaker 1>the trains believed and what the inquest into the killings

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<v Speaker 1>can tell us about extremism in Australia. It's Monday, August five, Sarah.

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<v Speaker 1>The very first question I think that everyone had after

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<v Speaker 1>this attack was why why had these three people shot

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<v Speaker 1>and killed police and their neighbor. And it became clear

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<v Speaker 1>very quickly that they had held very strong religious and

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<v Speaker 1>conspiratorial beliefs. So tell me about what was reported about

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<v Speaker 1>that initially.

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<v Speaker 2>So understandably there was a huge volume of coverage.

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<v Speaker 4>This lonely dirt road was the only way in of Nathaniel,

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<v Speaker 4>Gareth and Stacy trained sovereign status. They called it remote,

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<v Speaker 4>isolated and heavily fortified so they could protect it with

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<v Speaker 4>deadly murderous force.

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<v Speaker 2>Much of that report emphasized the bizarre quality of where

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<v Speaker 2>the trains lived in Wimbilla, and it's.

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<v Speaker 3>An area known as the Blocks.

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<v Speaker 2>So we heard about how this place where they lived

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<v Speaker 2>was quote harsh and isolated and the perfect place for

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<v Speaker 2>this devastating crime.

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<v Speaker 3>There were keepout signs on the gates.

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<v Speaker 2>They lived on isolated bush blocks with no electricity or

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<v Speaker 2>running water or sewerage, and that this was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a mecha for people with alternative lifestyles. Again, very distancing,

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<v Speaker 2>putting all of this fear and kind of this freaky

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<v Speaker 2>coating on the crime that could only happen in this

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<v Speaker 2>one exceptional place.

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<v Speaker 5>The area where the murders took place is known by

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<v Speaker 5>Wyambilla locals as the Blocks, a bit of a mecha

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<v Speaker 5>for people seeking alternative lifestyles. It's littered with keepout signs,

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<v Speaker 5>harsh isolated, the perfect scene for the most devastating crime.

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<v Speaker 2>That dovetailed with what we were learning in the reporting

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<v Speaker 2>that was uncovering rapidly the online activity of the Trains.

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<v Speaker 5>One of the offenders, Gareth Train, was heavily involved in

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<v Speaker 5>the online conspiracy community.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that an avenue that you'll be investigating, Yes, definitely, definitely. So.

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<v Speaker 2>We heard that Gareth had had an increasing obsession with

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<v Speaker 2>conspiracy theories and that they had also been voiced to

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<v Speaker 2>a certain extent by Nathaniel and Stacy. During the siege

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<v Speaker 2>and following the murders, Gareth and Stacy posted their online

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<v Speaker 2>video under their middle names Daniel and Jane, and Gareth

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<v Speaker 2>said that they came to kill us and we killed

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<v Speaker 2>them and referred to police as demons and devils. We

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<v Speaker 2>know that Gareth had espoused very strong anti government, anti police,

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<v Speaker 2>anti vaccine views. Gareth was described as a doomsday prepper

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<v Speaker 2>that he was getting ready to live out the apt

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<v Speaker 2>acalypse on his property. He supported the Sovereign Citizen movement,

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<v Speaker 2>and he made a number of claims.

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<v Speaker 3>About everything from the.

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<v Speaker 2>Need to build an arc to the fact that Princess

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<v Speaker 2>Diana had been killed in a blood sacrifice and that

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<v Speaker 2>Port Arthur.

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<v Speaker 3>Was a false flag operation.

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<v Speaker 2>COVID, however, seems to have triggered for all three of

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<v Speaker 2>them an increasing fixation on various extremist beliefs and conspiracy theories. Initially,

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<v Speaker 2>Queensland Police did not label these killings as domestic terrorism,

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<v Speaker 2>but after looking a bit more into the train's preoccupation

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<v Speaker 2>with fundamentalist Christian premillennialism, they did change that assessment and

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<v Speaker 2>they labeled this as Australia's first religiously motivated terrorist attack

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<v Speaker 2>and also his first fundamentalist Christian attack.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting as you say this attack, it's been

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<v Speaker 1>described as Australia's first Christian fundamentalist terror attack, and I

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<v Speaker 1>wonder when you think about that, to what extent do

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<v Speaker 1>you see Gareth and Nathaniel and Stacy as Christian and

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<v Speaker 1>to what extent with a conspiracy theorists, how do you

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<v Speaker 1>unpick those two parts of their motivations and their psyche.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the key question, and to a large extent, the

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<v Speaker 2>work of the inquest over the next five weeks, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's also to sub extent unanswerable.

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<v Speaker 3>It's useful to explain a.

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<v Speaker 2>Bit about the brother's childhood and their background. They were

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<v Speaker 2>raised in a conservative Christian family. Their father, Ronald Train,

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<v Speaker 2>had a spiritual rebirth and founded his own fundamentalist evangelical church,

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<v Speaker 2>where he was the pastor.

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<v Speaker 3>For nearly thirty years.

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<v Speaker 2>When the brothers were in their twenties, both Nathaniel and

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<v Speaker 2>Gareth stopped any contact with the parents. This has been

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<v Speaker 2>explained in terms of the way in which allegations that

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<v Speaker 2>the brothers made about childhood's sexual abuse were received by

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<v Speaker 2>the family. Stacy also became increasingly estranged.

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<v Speaker 3>From her family.

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<v Speaker 2>Eventually her marriage to Nathaniel ended and she married Gareth.

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<v Speaker 2>This was, especially in the early reporting, described as a

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<v Speaker 2>bizarre love triangle or a love tryst. It evoked a

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<v Speaker 2>huge amount of interest in the general public, so the

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<v Speaker 2>evidence that led to this being labeled as religiously motivated

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<v Speaker 2>violent extremism was the premillennialist nature of a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the beliefs that Gareth had expressed online and that had

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<v Speaker 2>been found in Stacy's diary. I hadn't heard of it

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<v Speaker 2>before I researched the story. But premillennialism is based on

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<v Speaker 2>a literal interpretation of certain verses of the Book of

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<v Speaker 2>Revelation that describe a period of apocalypse that will be

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<v Speaker 2>followed by the second coming of Christ. So the Trains

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<v Speaker 2>understood COVID as a sign of those end times, and

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<v Speaker 2>they also understood premillennialism as requiring and even sanctioning violence

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<v Speaker 2>against certain devils and demons in order to bring about

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of transformational period and eventually perfect utopia. So

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<v Speaker 2>because of the nature of those beliefs, which again I

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<v Speaker 2>should say are not common to Christianity is typically practiced,

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<v Speaker 2>their offending was labeled as religiously and not ideologically motivated.

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<v Speaker 2>But now that the inquest is underway, we might get

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit more understanding of what was ideological, what

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<v Speaker 2>was religious, and what was pathological.

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<v Speaker 3>After the break.

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<v Speaker 1>Was this attack caused by a shared delusion Sarah. The

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<v Speaker 1>coronial inquest into the Wimbilla killings. It's been set up

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<v Speaker 1>to understand the fundamentals of the police response and what

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<v Speaker 1>happened in that six hour siege, but tell me a

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<v Speaker 1>bit more about its scope and what else we might

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<v Speaker 1>actually learn by the end of this So to.

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<v Speaker 2>The extent that it's possible, the inquest is going to

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<v Speaker 2>be looking at everything that coalesced on that day as

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<v Speaker 2>it hears from about sixty different witnesses in her overview,

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<v Speaker 2>which kind of set out the roadmap for how the

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<v Speaker 2>inquest is going to run over the next few weeks.

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<v Speaker 2>Counsel assisting the court, Ruth O Gorman Casey, provided fresh

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<v Speaker 2>details about you know, the trend's beliefs and introduced in

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<v Speaker 2>particular future witness doctor Andrew aboud who's a clinical forensic psychologist.

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<v Speaker 2>And she explained that doctor Aboude will testify and that

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<v Speaker 2>be on the twelfth of August, that the trio we're

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<v Speaker 2>experiencing delusions and other symptoms consistent with shared psychotic disorder

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<v Speaker 2>follia twat so three people sharing the same delusion, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's characterized typically by a close relationship where one person's.

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<v Speaker 3>Delusion or delusions are transmitted to.

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<v Speaker 2>The others and kind of set off a similar psychotic

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<v Speaker 2>state of mind. So, according to doctor Aboud, Gareth's behavior

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<v Speaker 2>was connected to a genuine psychiatric condition, and we'll hear

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<v Speaker 2>more about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So in your reporting, what views have you come

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<v Speaker 1>to about the dynamic between Nathaniel and his brother, Gareth

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<v Speaker 1>and his wife Stacey. Does the idea that they were

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<v Speaker 1>all sharing a delusion? Does that tally with what you

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<v Speaker 1>understand of them.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll have to wait and see what the psychiatric evidence is.

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<v Speaker 3>My first impression, knowing.

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<v Speaker 2>What I do know now about the physical domestic violence

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<v Speaker 2>and the coerce of control that Gareth had exercised over

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<v Speaker 2>Stacy during the course of their marriage, complicates the picture

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<v Speaker 2>of her participation and perhaps would extend to I guess

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<v Speaker 2>the legitimacy of the claim that she was operating under

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<v Speaker 2>psychosis rather than out of compliance or fear. We might

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<v Speaker 2>not get a clear answer to that, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's important in any assessment of her mental state to

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<v Speaker 2>put it in the context of the marriage that she

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<v Speaker 2>had and what's known about the coerce of control in

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<v Speaker 2>that situation.

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<v Speaker 1>And just finally, Sarah, we know that conspiratorial thinking spiked

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<v Speaker 1>during COVID and that was actually a trigger for the trains.

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<v Speaker 1>So knowing that they are very much not alone in

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<v Speaker 1>this type of thinking, how should we judge the risk

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<v Speaker 1>of an attack like this happening again and should we

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<v Speaker 1>be looking at it less as a one off event

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<v Speaker 1>in rural Queensland and more of an ongoing threat.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm hopeful that over the next five weeks that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that the Inquest is going to consider, because we

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<v Speaker 2>are so lucky to have a huge amount of research

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<v Speaker 2>in this field addressing exactly that question. The nature of

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<v Speaker 2>the problem is that a lot of that radicalization to

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<v Speaker 2>violence occurs online in isolation. It happens rapidly and is

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<v Speaker 2>happening to increasingly younger people, and so it's in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of detection, it's very hard to find what's happening before

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<v Speaker 2>it explodes. But because the problem is multifaceted, so are

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<v Speaker 2>the solutions. Again and again, the solutions seem to cluster

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<v Speaker 2>around increasing social cohesion.

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<v Speaker 3>At every level of society.

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<v Speaker 2>So it would require all of government, bipartisan support that

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<v Speaker 2>we would have a reduction in this of exclusivist, populist

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<v Speaker 2>politicking that paints people our marginalized groups as other or outsiders,

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<v Speaker 2>and inclusion kind of at every level, from not just

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<v Speaker 2>those kind of ways in which national political debates are framed,

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<v Speaker 2>but in the way our local.

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<v Speaker 3>Neighborhoods are run.

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<v Speaker 2>The effect of that would be to make people a

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<v Speaker 2>bit more resilient to the ways in which these radicalizing,

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<v Speaker 2>extremely dangerous forums are meeting needs in vulnerable people for

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<v Speaker 2>self worth and dignity and connection and control over their lives.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that might be one of the scariest

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<v Speaker 2>things about this event, and not necessarily something that an

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<v Speaker 2>inquest can answer, because it indicates that the content of

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<v Speaker 2>the extreme belief is less important than the feeling it generates. Here,

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<v Speaker 2>the beliefless premillennialism, but it could have just as easily

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<v Speaker 2>been something else here. The offending happened in the Western Downs,

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<v Speaker 2>it could have happened in any Australian city or neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 2>Here three people died, and while that's a tragedy, it

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<v Speaker 2>could have very easily been many many more. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>value in not just stigmatizing and distancing this as an

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<v Speaker 2>exceptional event that happened out there about some freaky belief system,

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<v Speaker 2>but looking more broadly at our vulnerability and brittleness as

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<v Speaker 2>a society, because this can.

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<v Speaker 3>Affect any of us at any time.

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Northern Territory Police Commissioner Michael

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<v Speaker 1>Murphy has apologized to First Nations Territory for past harms

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<v Speaker 1>and injustices caused by members of the Northern Territory Police.

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<v Speaker 1>In a speech at the Gama Festival in northeast Arnham Land,

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<v Speaker 1>Commissioner Murphy acknowledged that police have abused their powers and

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<v Speaker 1>said he would make every effort to eradicate racism in

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<v Speaker 1>the police force. His apology comes after it was revealed

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<v Speaker 1>that a unit of anti police had given out racist

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<v Speaker 1>awards and shared racist text messages among officers and Karmala

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<v Speaker 1>Harris has accused Donald Trump of trying to back out

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<v Speaker 1>of a presidential debate. The US broadcaster ABC News was

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<v Speaker 1>set to host the debate, but Donald Trump has instead

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<v Speaker 1>proposed the debate happen on rival network Fox News. Ads

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<v Speaker 1>released by the Democratic National Committee taunt mister Trump, claiming

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<v Speaker 1>the convicted felon is afraid to debate. Miss Harris, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones. This is seven AM. Thanks for listening.