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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Harps and Melissa and it

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Speaker 1: is the prof. It is as I record as we

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Speaker 1: start right now, it's three minutes past seven Tuesday night.

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Speaker 1: Spent a big day and I mean listening to the

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Speaker 1: prof wax lyrical with another smart bloke and Melissa. I

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Speaker 1: was just wondering after listening to him whether or not

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Speaker 1: at seven three in the PM, my cognitive function is

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Speaker 1: somewhat less than seven o three in the am. What

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Speaker 1: do you think? What do you think? You spoke to

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Speaker 1: me earlier and you're speaking to me late. Am I dumber?

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Speaker 2: I do not think that is the case. But I

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Speaker 2: was intrigued before. And this goes to show what you've

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Speaker 2: been learning and doing over the last few years in

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Speaker 2: that your first thought is to turn to studying it.

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Speaker 2: So you did say maybe you should do an IQ

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Speaker 2: test in the morning, in an IQ test in the evening,

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Speaker 2: and see.

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Speaker 1: Well, I know we don't hold a great deal of

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, value in IQ tests. You know

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Speaker 1: they have a place, I guess. But firstly, Professor russ

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Speaker 1: All Foster, welcome to the You Project, sir.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Craig. Really delighted to join you.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're a little bit too sophisticated and

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Speaker 1: smart for us. But we'll just hang in there.

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Speaker 3: Do you think, no, No, it's just a thin veneer.

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Speaker 3: You can pietrate that ven I don't worry.

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Speaker 1: You can't. You can't bullshit A bullshit A good sir. Now,

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Speaker 1: if I took a typically, if I took an IQ

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Speaker 1: test at seven am and seven pm, would I be

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Speaker 1: slightly dumber? Or does it depend on a few other variables?

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Speaker 1: Or would I be about the same.

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Speaker 3: It depends on many variables. I mean, Craig, are you

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Speaker 3: a morning type or an evening tape?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good question. I'm probably Melissa. What do

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Speaker 1: you I reckon? I'm probably more mourning, but I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm okay. But when I'm not okay, I hit the wall,

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Speaker 1: like like after I get off this. So at seven

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Speaker 1: o five now I reckon. By eight point thirty, I'll

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Speaker 1: be sliding into a coma.

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Speaker 3: Well. On average, adults peak cognitive performance, you know, our

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Speaker 3: ability to process information and do mathematical tasks and all

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Speaker 3: the rest of it, on average is between eleven am

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Speaker 3: and twelve noon, and then it drops slowly throughout the

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Speaker 3: afternoon to get to a really low point at around

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Speaker 3: about four o'clock in the morning, four five o'clock in

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Speaker 3: the morning. Now that will shift left or right depending

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Speaker 3: whether you're a morning person or an evening person, but

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Speaker 3: it's worth bearing in mind. Drew Dawson from Australia did

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Speaker 3: a wonderful study comparing cognitive abilities at four o'clock in

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Speaker 3: the morning and how bad you are at performing those

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Speaker 3: tasks with the impact of alcohol. And he showed in

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Speaker 3: this famous study that our ability to process information at

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Speaker 3: four o'clock in the morning is worse than if we

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Speaker 3: consume sufficient alcohol to make us legally drunk. So I

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Speaker 3: mean you know, to your listeners, you know, if you

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Speaker 3: happen to be driving at four five o'clock in the morning,

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Speaker 3: your ability to drive that car is worse than if

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Speaker 3: you consumed sufficient alcohol to make you legally drunk. It's

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Speaker 3: that's the level of impairment the morning. It really is remarkable.

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Speaker 1: And also, listeners, if you're driving at four am and

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Speaker 1: your ship faced double that because which is the case,

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Speaker 1: you clearly.

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Speaker 3: Know, my listeners, doc, that's really bad.

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Speaker 1: But also like what other things that we wouldn't think of,

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Speaker 1: so obviously sleep, you know, the time of day driving,

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Speaker 1: as you said at four am, is going to be

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Speaker 1: analogous to you know, having alcohol in our system. But

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Speaker 1: also dehydration impacts cognitive like significant dehydration impacts cognition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and brain glucose levels. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you if you're really running on empty, then then memory

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Speaker 3: formation and just processing information becomes really much worse. But

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Speaker 3: you know, it's a bit like it's a bit like

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Speaker 3: not getting enough sleep. I mean, it's really incredible if

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Speaker 3: you think about it. Poor sleep will produce fluctuation, fluctuations

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Speaker 3: in mood. The tired brain actually remembers negative experiences but

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Speaker 3: forgets the positive ones, So our whole worldview is changed.

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Speaker 3: If you have a tired brain, you're more irritable, you

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Speaker 3: show greater levels of anxiety. You've got lots of empathy,

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Speaker 3: so picking up those social signals from your friend's, family,

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Speaker 3: colleagues is reduced, and you know you can't interact as well.

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Speaker 3: You much more inclined if you've if you're tired, to

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Speaker 3: use stimulants and fueling the day with lots and lots

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Speaker 3: of coffee and then in the evening thinking, goodness, I've

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Speaker 3: got to get to sleep. What am I going to do,

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Speaker 3: and then you start taking loads of alcohol or sedatives,

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Speaker 3: which in fact disrupts some of the important things going

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Speaker 3: on in the brain when we sleep. So yeah, there's

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Speaker 3: a lack of sleep. Is not just the sort of

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Speaker 3: the inconvenience of feeling tired at an inappropriate time. It

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Speaker 3: has big impacts upon our ability to process information. And

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Speaker 3: that's just just the short term stuff. We can get

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Speaker 3: onto the long term stuff later on.

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Speaker 1: I was amazed too. I should have known this, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't know this, So I'm going to be honest.

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Speaker 1: I was amazed to find out recently that the brain

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Speaker 1: uses about twenty percent of our daily calorie expenditure and

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Speaker 1: what is at one point two to one point four

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Speaker 1: kilos or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So you know, I suppose maybe no

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Speaker 3: great surprise on the top of our head is the

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Speaker 3: most complicated structure in the no universe, So using twenty

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Speaker 3: percent of our calories isn't that bad. But yeah, you're

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Speaker 3: quite right. And of course, you know, if you're in

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Speaker 3: cold conditions, loss of heat from the head, because of

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Speaker 3: course the blood flow to the breed could be quite serious.

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Speaker 1: The other day I went on the other day was

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Speaker 1: probably a month ago I went to the gym to

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Speaker 1: lift stuff because I'm massive. I'm just kidding. And I

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Speaker 1: went to the gym and outside the gym, on an

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Speaker 1: aFrame proft was a sign that said excuses don't burn

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Speaker 1: Making excuses doesn't burn calories. And I thought, that's actually

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Speaker 1: not true, because it's a cognitive process. You've got to

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Speaker 1: come up with some bullshit. So I went inside and

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Speaker 1: told them, actually, making excuses does burn calories, so you

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Speaker 1: might need a new message.

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Speaker 3: And the more creative of the excuses, the more calories

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Speaker 3: were burnt. I mean, certainly, that's what I find with

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Speaker 3: my students. They come up with amazingly creative excuses.

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Speaker 1: That's funny, big calorie burning excuses, you could call those.

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Speaker 1: So I guess when we get onto the sleep more

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Speaker 1: in a minute, but I guess so even people thinking

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Speaker 1: about you know, the brain runs on glucose, right, so

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Speaker 1: people who go I'm going to go paleo, their brain

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Speaker 1: must almost be non functional for the first week or

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Speaker 1: so until they start to adapt.

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Speaker 3: Right. Well, I'm not sure about that. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: depends if they're eating their protein. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: if it isn't just a lot of meat and they're

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Speaker 3: cooking that meat, they're releasing all of those calories, and

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Speaker 3: of course what the body does, the energy currency of

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Speaker 3: the brain is glucose, So no matter whether you're eating carbs, protein, fats,

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Speaker 3: it's all converted into the basic currency of glucose. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it might take a few days, I guess, to adapt,

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Speaker 3: but I think we'd adapt pretty quickly. I mean, one

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Speaker 3: of the most extraordinary things you're talking about the brain

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Speaker 3: is that the invention of fire, which allowed us to

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Speaker 3: cook meat for the first time, which released so much

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Speaker 3: more energy because you know, half the digestion, as it were,

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Speaker 3: was done because the fire sort of cooked it and

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Speaker 3: sort of made it easier to digest, is associated with

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Speaker 3: a big leap in brain size. And so the invention

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Speaker 3: of fire and cooking our meat has been associated with

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Speaker 3: increasing brain size. And so you see a quite sharp

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Speaker 3: rise in brain size in the fossil record on the

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Speaker 3: basis of the size of the cranium where the brain

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Speaker 3: sits in the skull.

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Speaker 1: Any idea as to the mechanism behind and that duck.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean, I guess you know, as we evolved

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Speaker 3: and we became sort of bipedal running around on two

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Speaker 3: legs and that freed up our hands and our arms

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Speaker 3: to use tools. Of course, we could become more sophisticated.

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Speaker 3: We were faster on two feet, so we became more flexible,

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Speaker 3: and we could then capture meat for the first time

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Speaker 3: rather than just scavenge. And then of course by cooking

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Speaker 3: that we released all of those incredible calories, and that

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Speaker 3: may be one of the really important steps in human evolution.

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Speaker 3: But Crane, I'm talking about evolution, not sleeping Cicadian rhythms.

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Speaker 3: So now I have a comfort zone here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that's what I'm doing. I'm just trying

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Speaker 1: to stretch it because I've heard you on other shows.

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Speaker 1: You get a little comfy, You're a little familiar with

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Speaker 1: the subject matter. I just want you to keep learning

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Speaker 1: and evolving. Profits You're welcome. So now lifetime your body

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Speaker 1: clock and its essential roles in good health and sleep.

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Speaker 1: When did you write this?

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Speaker 3: During lockdown? So I was I wrote a few articles

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Speaker 3: for one of the newspapers in the UK, and a

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Speaker 3: bunch of people said, oh, you should write a book,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, well, you know, I'm never going to

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Speaker 3: have time. And then COVID hit and so I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm never going to have you know, this this opportunity.

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Speaker 3: So I used the time constructively and so really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: And I worked with Penguin and it's interesting, I've written

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Speaker 3: previous books, but what they allowed me to do was

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Speaker 3: was they said, we want to hear your voice. And

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Speaker 3: of course, as a scientist, that's exactly what you suppress.

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Speaker 3: You know, you don't have anecdotes, you don't have the stories.

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Speaker 3: And they said, no, no, that's great, and I sort

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Speaker 3: of threw a few in and they said more of that,

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Speaker 3: and so the feedback I got was make it as

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Speaker 3: accessible as possible. So each of the chapters starts with

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Speaker 3: a sort of a little story about whether it's Einstein

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Speaker 3: and Salvador Daly and their cognitive abilities and their sleep more,

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Speaker 3: whether it's you know, the chapter on metabolism introduces the

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Speaker 3: sugar trade and slavery. Yeah, so it was fun to

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Speaker 3: go outside with my comfort zone. So yeah, it was

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Speaker 3: a lockdown project.

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Speaker 1: I love that. You know. It's like, we've had a

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Speaker 1: lot of academics on the show, and I'm a shudo academic.

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Speaker 1: I'm more a pro academic, but that it's like, and

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Speaker 1: I mean this in a loving and caring way, because

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Speaker 1: my proper Well, this is my proper job these days,

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Speaker 1: but also my other half of my proper job is

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Speaker 1: corporate speaking. And you know, you've got to obviously, whatever

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Speaker 1: idea or message or piece of data or truth or

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Speaker 1: insight you want to share, it needs to be consumer

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Speaker 1: friendly listener friendly. And there are not how do I

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Speaker 1: say this about getting in trouble, there's not a huge

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Speaker 1: percentage of academics that can stand in front of a

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Speaker 1: non academic audience and create connection. And I'm not pissing

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Speaker 1: in your pocket. That's an Australian term, prof But you're

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Speaker 1: very good at it. That you're very good, and so

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Speaker 1: you know that ability to go. This is the model

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Speaker 1: that I use with would be speakers or even academics.

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Speaker 1: I say, all right, what's the thing that you want

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Speaker 1: to tell them? What's the idea? What's the piece of information?

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Speaker 1: You know what? Firstly, what's that? Now? Secondly how do

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Speaker 1: you share that in a story? And then thirdly why

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Speaker 1: does this matter? And lastly how do we apply it

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Speaker 1: or how do we integrate it into our operating system?

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Speaker 1: And when I tell them that, they're like, oh, I go,

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Speaker 1: so what do you want to talk about? Subjective reality? Cool? Well,

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Speaker 1: tell them, give them an example, a practical example, or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. And it just because all the knowledge

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Speaker 1: is there, it's just finding the language of the audience

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Speaker 1: or the reader.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but you have to understand most of us

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Speaker 3: are trained from the word go to suppress all of that.

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Speaker 3: You know, we write in a very formal way and

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Speaker 3: a formal language, and so maybe it's very kind of

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Speaker 3: your say, so, perhaps I'm just a little bit disinhibited,

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Speaker 3: and so I feel as though I can indulge that

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Speaker 3: other other dimension of my personality.

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Speaker 1: Well, you can step out of one world. And it's

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Speaker 1: the opposite for me because I've written seven books and

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Speaker 1: none of them are academic, right, They're just all, you know, conversational.

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Speaker 1: I've also published with Penguin like you, but now I'm

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Speaker 1: writing academic papers and it's a steep learner. I need

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Speaker 1: to ring you up. It's a steep learning curve. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: let's get into the topic at hands. I've got some

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Speaker 1: really specific questions. I'm going to start with a question

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Speaker 1: that I literally have only asked one other time in

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Speaker 1: nine hundred and seventy five episodes, and it was yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to ask it again. Today, Why are

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Speaker 1: we so crap at sleeping?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's an interesting question. So if we think about

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Speaker 3: the way we've viewed sleep, if we go back to

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Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties, not getting sleep was a badge of honor.

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Speaker 3: People used to come into work and see, I've I've

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Speaker 3: done another or nightem people say, oh, yeah, fantastic, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: well done, you know, pat on the back. And it

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Speaker 3: was part of the fact that we didn't understand the

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Speaker 3: value of sleep. We didn't appreciate that whilst asleep we

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Speaker 3: consolidate memory and it's not just laying down the facts.

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Speaker 3: I think the most awesome thing is that when we're asleep,

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Speaker 3: we're actually asking questions of ourselves. We're processing information. A

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Speaker 3: night of sleep has been shown scientifically to allow us

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Speaker 3: to come up with innovative solutions to complex problems. So

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Speaker 3: from the nineteen eighties we've kind of learnt that sleep

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Speaker 3: is really important. So by the turn of the century

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Speaker 3: people are thinking, yeah, you know, maybe I should start

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Speaker 3: to pay a bit more attention about sleep. And then

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Speaker 3: in the last twenty years and particularly the last five years,

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Speaker 3: we've become incredibly anxious about our sleep, you know, and

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Speaker 3: there's actually a condition called sleep anxiety, where people are

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Speaker 3: so anxious they can't get to sleep and if they

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Speaker 3: wake up, they can't get back to sleep. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's been driven by several factors. APPS which are

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Speaker 3: really bad at at telling us what our sleep is. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, they're okay for telling us roughly when we

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Speaker 3: went to sleep, roughly when we got up, and how

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Speaker 3: many times you work up at night, But when they

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Speaker 3: start telling you, oh, you had a good night's sleep

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Speaker 3: or you didn't get enough for m sleep, that's just nonsense.

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Speaker 3: But people get really anxious about it. Oh yeah, and

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Speaker 3: we're also the sergeant majors asleep are screaming you must

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Speaker 3: get eight hours. Well, that's also complete nonsense. The healthy

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Speaker 3: the healthy range for sleep in adults is between six

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Speaker 3: hours and ten to eleven APPS. And the key thing

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Speaker 3: for all of us is that we define the sleep

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Speaker 3: that we need and then adopt behaviors that defend that sleep,

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Speaker 3: and you know, stop being frightened of sleep, embrace the

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Speaker 3: sleep that we get. Sleep is very different between individuals,

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Speaker 3: and of course it changes as we age. I mean,

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Speaker 3: so many you know, people in there sort of post

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Speaker 3: retirements will say, oh God, I wish I had the

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Speaker 3: sleep that I had when I was sort of in

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Speaker 3: my twenties. Well, it's going to change. And I know

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Speaker 3: lots of elderly people who say, oh, no, it's fantastic,

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Speaker 3: best sleep I've ever had. I don't have to worry

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Speaker 3: about the kids, I don't have to worry about getting

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Speaker 3: out for work, I don't have to worry about anything.

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Speaker 3: And certain family members make it very clear that we're

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Speaker 3: not to call before eleven o'clock in the morning. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's it. You know, you adopt the sleep

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Speaker 3: that works best for you. I mean. The serious point is,

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Speaker 3: of course, that we've never taken sleep seriously up until

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Speaker 3: very recently, because it's not part of a medical curriculum.

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Speaker 3: In a five year training, a medic may get one

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Speaker 3: or two lectures on sleep. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you're a general practitioner, it's been estimated that thirty

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Speaker 3: percent of the questions you're asked, thirty percent of the

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Speaker 3: health issues are either directly or indirectly related to sleep.

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Speaker 3: And the problem is, of course, what's the response, Well,

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Speaker 3: here's a sleeping tablet, and that that is often not

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Speaker 3: the best way forward. We've got to ap sort of

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Speaker 3: measures which and they're very simple. I mean, the thing

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Speaker 3: is the great thing about this whole area is there's

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Speaker 3: a whole bunch of stuff we can do to make

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Speaker 3: ours sleep better. It's not you know, so many people think, oh,

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Speaker 3: you get the seat that you get. That's not true.

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Speaker 3: I mean, clearly it's guided by our genes and our

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Speaker 3: behavior and all the rest of it. But we can

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Speaker 3: also modify that behavior.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. As you said, eight hours

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Speaker 1: sleep and you know, eight glasses of water a day,

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Speaker 1: and how tall are you and how much do youigh? Oh,

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Speaker 1: you should have twenty eight hundred and forty three calories

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Speaker 1: a day. I'm like, well, what if one day I'm

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Speaker 1: chopping down trees and running up mountains and the next

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Speaker 1: day I'm writing my book and sitting for fourteen hours

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Speaker 1: at might what about then? You know, it's like it

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Speaker 1: just these kind of dogmatic, arbitrary numbers that get wheeled

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Speaker 1: out that people use as rather than a very vague guideline,

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Speaker 1: perhaps they use as some kind of gospel that needs

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Speaker 1: to be followed despite all the variability of their behavior

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Speaker 1: and their lifestyle and the weather and calories in and out.

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Speaker 1: Like it's so it's so I would. I would posit

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Speaker 1: professor that not only do sleep requirements Do you like that, Melissa?

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Speaker 1: I did, thank you.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at looking up as we speak. What does

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Speaker 3: it mean, Molnissa, Yeah, don't be ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: You know what it means. You know what it means.

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Speaker 1: I would posit Professor. I'm going to say it again, Comma,

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Speaker 1: that not only do sleep requirements vary from person to person,

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Speaker 1: but would they not vary from us day to day

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Speaker 1: a little bit depending on what we've done in the day.

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Speaker 1: Like if I have a massive day of energy expenditure

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Speaker 1: and I'm physically working hard all day, would I need

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Speaker 1: the same amount of sleep as a normal day or.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty much. It is fairly similar, even even after

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Speaker 3: vigorous exercise. But you're right, it is very dynamic, and

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Speaker 3: the key thing is not to get anxious about it.

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Speaker 3: If pre lockdown, I gave a talk and somebody came

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Speaker 3: up to him and said, I don't get eight hours

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Speaker 3: of sleep every night. Am I going to die?

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Speaker 1: Ah?

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Speaker 3: I said, well, well, I said, yeah, you're going to die.

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Speaker 3: But it may have nothing to do with the fact

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Speaker 3: that you're not getting eight hours of sleep. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know this is the kind of anxiety that we're

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Speaker 3: finding at the moment rather than you know, embracing the

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Speaker 3: sleep that we get.

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Speaker 1: You know, what you should have done when they said

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Speaker 1: am I going to die? You should have said yes

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Speaker 1: and then just finished there and as they walked away dejectedly,

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Speaker 1: you should have gone.

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Speaker 3: But not from that, Craig, that would have been mean

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, all right, I've got some specific questions, and

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Speaker 1: some of these are very fundamental, but bear with me.

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Speaker 1: What's a circadian rhythm? Or talk to us about you know,

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Speaker 1: the different rhythms or body clocks, like what does what

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Speaker 1: does that mean?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a Cicadian rhythm you can think of as an

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Speaker 3: internal biological day. It really is one of the great

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Speaker 3: I think advance is in science of biological science over

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Speaker 3: the past twenty years of actually understanding that we have

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Speaker 3: an internal clock. In fact, we have a master clock

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Speaker 3: within the brain, which is about fifty thousand cells called

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Speaker 3: the supra chismatic nuclei or the SCN, which is this

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Speaker 3: master Then it's coordinating essentially billions of individual clocks in

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Speaker 3: the cells of the body, which you're organized of course

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Speaker 3: in the organ systems. So we've got this whole hierarchy

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Speaker 3: of time, and what's it for. Well, what it does

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Speaker 3: is fine tune our biology to the very varied and

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Speaker 3: complicated demands of rest and activity. So if you think

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Speaker 3: about consciousness versus sleep, it's a completely different physiological state,

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Speaker 3: and that's all underpinned by changes driven by this internal clock.

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Speaker 3: So if you know that in three hours time you're

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Speaker 3: going to be up, walking around and active, then in

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Speaker 3: anticipation of that, blood glucose levels rise, blood pressure rises,

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Speaker 3: metabolum metabolism starts to increase, cortisols starts to go up.

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Speaker 3: So but the time we actually wake up, we have

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Speaker 3: a body that is physiologically prepared for activity. And in

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Speaker 3: the same way, at the end of the day we

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Speaker 3: start to change our physiology in preparation for sleep. So

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Speaker 3: there's a drop in core body temperature, and indeed that

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Speaker 3: small dropping core body temperature is associated with going to sleep.

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Speaker 3: If you block that dropping core body temperature, it's more

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Speaker 3: difficult to get off to sleep. So we've got this

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Speaker 3: internal time structure which is fine tuning everything that we

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Speaker 3: do to the varied and complicated demands of the twenty

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Speaker 3: four hour revolution of the Earth and the light dark cycle.

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Speaker 3: And we know at a fundamental level what makes us tick.

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Speaker 3: So a bunch of genes have been identified which are

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Speaker 3: turned on. They then make proteins. Those proteins then interact

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Speaker 3: go into the nucleus of the cell and then turn off.

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Speaker 3: Those genes are those clock chins, and then those proteins

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Speaker 3: are degraded, and so the clock genes can then turn

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Speaker 3: on once again. So you have this twenty four hour

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Speaker 3: cycle of protein production and then degradation, and that's fundamentally

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Speaker 3: the nature of the biological clock. It truly is an

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Speaker 3: awesome process. And I think you know, in the past

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five years. I've been in a business really

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Speaker 3: in this area in biological time for almost forty years,

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Speaker 3: but it's over the past twenty years where we've seen

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Speaker 3: this extraordinary revolution. And of course in twenty seventeen, the

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Speaker 3: Nobel Prize was given to russ bash Hall and Young

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Speaker 3: who identified in flies, not humans, not even in mice,

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Speaker 3: but how this clock ticks in flies one of the

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Speaker 3: great I think achievements of sort of biological endeavor. And

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Speaker 3: I was privileged enough when I worked in the States

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Speaker 3: to work to know these guys, and they are extraordinary.

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Speaker 3: I talk about a bit of eyebat in the book.

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Speaker 1: No Pressure, but I expect a Nobel prize from you

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Speaker 1: and the five to ten. So if you can lift

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Speaker 1: your game a little bit.

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Speaker 3: It won't be in clocks. But the thing that we've

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Speaker 3: been doing has been trying to understand how those internal

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Speaker 3: clocks are set to the external world. So there's no

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Speaker 3: good having this sort of ability to anticipate and fine

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Speaker 3: tune unless the internal day and the external day are aligned.

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Speaker 3: Classic mismatches jetlag. We actually get over jetlag primarily as

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Speaker 3: a result of exposure to the environmental light dark cycle.

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Speaker 3: And what we discovered is that, of course you need

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Speaker 3: the eyes. If you have no eyes, the clock keeps

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Speaker 3: on ticking. And we work on individuals who've lost their eyes,

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Speaker 3: so they're completely blind and they essentially have unremitting jet

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Speaker 3: lack for the rest of their lives. But we're working

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Speaker 3: on that. But what we discovered is that the eye

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Speaker 3: is not using the cells which we use for vision,

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Speaker 3: the visual cells, the rods and the colors, but there's

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Speaker 3: a third there's a third light sensor within the eye,

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Speaker 3: so you can be visually blind if you've still got

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Speaker 3: these other light sensors. Within the eye, you can regulate

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Speaker 3: the clock. So the eye is this It's just amazing.

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Speaker 3: The eye is this organ of space vision, but it's

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Speaker 3: also the organ of time because of the way it

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Speaker 3: sets the internal clock to the external world. And so

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Speaker 3: this is a big chunk of what we're doing. I mean,

432
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 3: you know, if you think about it, we've discovered a

433
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: completely new light sensing system within the eye. And certainly

434
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 3: when we proposed this in the nineties and around about

435
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 3: the turn of the century, I remember I was at

436
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 3: a seminar and said, you know, these data are consistent

437
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: with the discovery of a new receptor system within the eye,

438
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 3: and somebody at the back of the auditorium stood up

439
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 3: and looked at me and just shouted bullshit and then

440
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: walked out. I mean, the idea that we have been

441
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: studying the eye for one hundred and fifty years and

442
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 3: then missed an entire light sensing system was so insulting

443
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: to this community that, you know, it was a tough decade.

444
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: Well, academics, we know academics are very open minded.

445
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yes, it's a it's a real it's very

446
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: complicated because you know, being conservative with a with a

447
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 3: small C is good because you know, want a whole

448
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 3: bunch of nonsense, you know, keep on changing, so they're

449
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: very resistant to change. And what we had to do,

450
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: and the scientific approach is you just carry on doing

451
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: better and better experiments to overwhelm the skeptics with the

452
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 3: data set that you know makes it completely incontrovertible.

453
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 1: So even if someone is blind as in they can't see,

454
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: they can't make out, they can't read, they can't make out,

455
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: they can't define things, but they they can open their

456
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: eyelids and sense light or dark, then their internal clocks

457
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: will function as normal.

458
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, we studied two individuals, one in one in the UK,

459
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 3: one in the States, and the subject I know best.

460
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: She said she had no conscious light detection at all, right,

461
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: and so but we we asked it to to perform

462
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 3: a test when the lights are on or off. And

463
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: we said, look, we're going to force you to give

464
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 3: us an answer to tell us if the lights are

465
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 3: on or off. And she said, no point in doing

466
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: this because I can't see. I absolutely have no light detection.

467
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: When we forced her to make a decision, she got

468
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 3: it right every time, and that is really cool. And

469
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 3: what it shows is, of course these receptors are not

470
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 3: only regulating the clock, and we've discovered that they're regulating

471
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 3: part of our pupil constriction, they're regulating sleep, but they're

472
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 3: also providing an unconscious awareness of light. And you know,

473
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 3: we're just finding out really what all the roles of

474
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: this receptor is new receptor in the eye doing so,

475
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: for example, it looks as though they're important in alertness.

476
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: So you know, the brighter the light, the more alert

477
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: we are, and it's probably via these receptors. So yeah,

478
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 3: it's a new and unexplored receptor system which we're appealing.

479
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 3: We're trying to understand, feeling back information on it.

480
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: How did that lady respond prof when she realized she

481
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: could detect light and dark?

482
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 3: She was really quite shocked and surprised because of course

483
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: she'd been told and she you know, had adapted to

484
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: the fact that she has no light detection. She is

485
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 3: completely by and it raises a really important issue, of course,

486
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 3: because there has been a tendency in ophthalmology departments, and

487
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 3: I'm head of the Nuffold Laboratory of Ophthalmology in Oxford

488
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 3: and that you know, when I talk to my clinical colleagues,

489
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 3: I think, God, we never really thought of that before,

490
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 3: and so if eyes are very badly damaged, there's a

491
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 3: tendency to say, well, do you know that you can't see,

492
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 3: you've lost your vision. There are going to be a

493
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: source of infection you can't see to look after them.

494
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: It will be much simpler if we remove them, but

495
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: a proesthetic in and then you know, it'll be easy

496
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 3: for everybody. And of course in the process they've already

497
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: lost a sense of space, but inadvertently you could take

498
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 3: away their sense of time. And so you know, I've

499
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: been working very closely with my clinical colleagues to try

500
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 3: and find out, you know, how severe particular eye diseases are,

501
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: and what's their impact. Obviously on vision, that's their job,

502
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 3: but mine is to assess, you know, what's their impact

503
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 3: on their cicadian regulation and their sleepwake regulation, because if

504
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 3: that's still intact, then those eyes have to be saved

505
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 3: at all costs. Otherwise, as I said, you'll have unremitting

506
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: jet lag for the rest of your life. And when

507
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 3: you talk to individuals who lost their eyes, it's really poignant.

508
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 3: I mean, we work with blind veterans UK and these

509
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: are extremely robust individuals. You know, they're dealing with this

510
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 3: traumatic loss of their eyes. And you know, I remember

511
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 3: chatting to one chat and he said, well, do you

512
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 3: know I'm determined. I know I cut the lawn on

513
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: a Friday, and so he woke up and he went

514
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 3: downstead and he worked out a way of getting this

515
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 3: the moa out of the shed and how it was

516
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: going to work and all the rest of it. And

517
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: he was cutting the lawn and his wife came down

518
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 3: and said, it's three o'clock in the morning. Disturbing. You're

519
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 3: disturbing the navy. And you know what they say is, look,

520
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: I feel constantly tricked by my body clock. And that's

521
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: the problem because it's ticking, it's drifting through time, but

522
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: it's not aligned with the external world. And so, you know,

523
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 3: a lot of the work that we're doing at the

524
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: moment is on the basis of our understanding of how

525
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: those new receptors are regulating the masterclock in the brain.

526
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: Can we fool the clock that it's seen light by

527
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 3: mimicking that pathway with drugs? And it's we're at a

528
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: really exciting stage. We've done all the mousework. We've now

529
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: got a drug that can fool the clock that it's

530
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: seen light and we're now going into In fact, our

531
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: first in human trials took place in Melbourne over Lockdown,

532
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: and we're now ready to do the full blown clinical trials.

533
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: I mean, if I can end my career by giving

534
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 3: back a sense of time to people who have radical

535
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 3: eye disease, I'll die happy. Man.

536
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's bloody brilliant, Melissa. Can I ask you a question?

537
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: If ten out of ten is I'm a brilliant sleeper,

538
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: I have no problem, I sleep great, and one is

539
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: extremely troubled sleeping. What number are you typically?

540
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: We have spoken about this before, and I'm not talented

541
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: at many things, but sleeping would have to be up there.

542
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: That's something I could actually do pretty well.

543
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: So probably seven or eight in general, I would say.

544
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: Now, okay, So I want to ask you something. Melissa

545
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: works a long day. She starts early and works late,

546
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: and spends most of her days correct me if I

547
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: get any of this wrong in a chair looking. She

548
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: goes to the gym every day. She's active, but spends

549
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: a lot of time looking at screens as do I now,

550
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: and obviously has fluoro lights over her head most of

551
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: her life. If we put her in the bush in

552
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: some alternate reality, and she had no fluorescent lights and

553
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: no TV, no computer, no iPhone. We took her out

554
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: of modernity and we put her in wherever what would

555
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: and so she had to get up when the sun

556
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: came up and go to bed or do whatever when

557
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: the sun went down. What would happen to her body clocks?

558
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: Well, those experiments have actually been done not by us,

559
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 3: but by a chap called ken Wright in Colorado, and

560
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 3: he monitored the sleepwaate timing of a bunch of students

561
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: in their normal environment, you know, basically what Melissa was doing.

562
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: And then he took them out camping to the Rocky

563
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: Mountains for a week. And what was extraordinary is that

564
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: their whole body clock advanced in time. When they were

565
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 3: tuned into the natural light dark cycle. They ended up,

566
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: on average getting up two hours earlier and going to

567
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: bed two hours earlier than when they were experiencing artificial

568
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 3: light in their home environment. So it's very likely that

569
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: Melissa would probably get up a bed earlier and go

570
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 3: to bed earlier.

571
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: What's the relationship or what's the comparison between the clock

572
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: on the wall hanging in the kitchen and our biological

573
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: clock is it how close they related?

574
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: Well, it's so we talked about the importance of light

575
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: in these new receptors and light intensity. How much light

576
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 3: you need is important, but also when you get it.

577
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: So morning light makes you get up earlier, it advances

578
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: the clock. Dust light delays the clock makes you get

579
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: up later. We did a study all actually with students

580
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: all over the world, Western Australia, Melbourne, Auckland, Oxford, Munich

581
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: and Groningen in the Netherlands, and we found that the

582
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 3: later the chronotype, the later the body clock type, the

583
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: less morning light people got eye that would make them

584
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 3: get up earlier, but they got lots of evening light

585
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: which would make them get up later. So whilst our

586
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 3: genetics and our will influence when we get up and

587
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 3: go to bed are really critical and often forgotten about,

588
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: is when we see light. So if you're a real

589
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: late type and you've got to get up earlier, then

590
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: you can set the alarm and then force yourself out

591
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: of bed. And in Australia, of course you've got bright light.

592
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 3: It's all fine, so you get outside, you get your

593
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 3: bright morning light. In the northern Hemisphere in the winter

594
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: you probably need a light box and that will advance

595
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: the clock, shift it forward, and then make it easier

596
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 3: to get up. And that, of course, behave yourself is

597
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: self reinforcing. You get up earlier, you get the morning light,

598
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: and you start to get up earlier. So when we're

599
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: all agricultural workers, we got sort of symmetrical exposure to

600
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: morning and dusk light, and we sort of more or

601
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 3: less stayed on que. Now, because of industrialization we live

602
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: most of our lives inside. That's become distorted. But we

603
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: can regain that timing by you set as I say,

604
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 3: setting a long clock and then exposing ourselves to natural light.

605
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 3: It's really really important to do that. Interestingly, we need

606
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: a lot of light, and I guess we'll come onto this, Craig,

607
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: because there's been a lot of stuff in the literature

608
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 3: about and in the media, Oh, if you look at

609
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 3: a screen before you go to bed, you're gonna shift

610
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: your body clock. Well, actually the evidence for that is

611
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: really poor. We need bright light for a long duration.

612
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: So there was a study from the States which got

613
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 3: people to look at a kindle for four hours on

614
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: its brightest intensity for four hours immediately built before bedtime,

615
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: on five consecutive nights that delayed sleep on set just

616
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: statistically by ten minutes, so it's a really minor effect.

617
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think we need to be quite careful. Clearly,

618
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: the brighter the light before we go to bed, the

619
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 3: more chance we're going to delay the clock. But under

620
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: normal circumstances, and particularly if we're seeing bright morning light,

621
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: its internal light is not going to have a huge

622
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 3: impact upon us. Certainly, screens and all the rest of it.

623
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 3: The big problem with iPhones and smartphones and stuff is

624
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: that we're doing social media, we're doing our emails, and

625
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: it's all that stuff that's increasing alertness and then delaying

626
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 3: sleep on set. So it is good not to use

627
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: them before we go to bed. Not so much the

628
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: light issue, but it's because of the alerting effect it's

629
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 3: having on the brain.

630
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: That's so interesting and so contrary to what we've been told.

631
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: All Right, I've got a million more questions and we

632
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: don't have I don't know how long you have, but

633
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, how good is Emilissa? I know, amazing,

634
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I'm excited. All right, tell me

635
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: about why you and Andrew Huberman, I'm sure you know

636
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: who he is. Yeah, Professor Andrew Huberman, and you both

637
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: kind of bang on about the importance of bang on

638
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: in a nice way about the importance of early morning light,

639
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: why we need it, and why it's good for us.

640
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: One of them, it would tell us about that.

641
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: We've touched on it briefly, but for about ninety percent

642
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 3: of us, the human body clock is a little bit

643
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: longer than twenty four hours, so under constant conditions, we

644
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: get up later and later and later each day. So

645
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 3: what we need to do to stay on track is

646
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 3: to get that morning light exposure, to advance the clock,

647
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 3: to nudge just forward in time so that that slightly

648
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 3: longer clock is forced to be exactly twenty four hours.

649
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: And that's why morning light is so important. And you

650
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 3: know it's a no brainer. The data are absolutely clear,

651
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: and and you know that's something that we can actually

652
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 3: take possession of our light exposure parenthetically, which I think

653
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 3: is absolutely fascinating. There was a study a few years

654
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 3: ago saying that dog owners got better sleep for non

655
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 3: dog owners, and I've always wondered whether it's because, of course,

656
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: it's not so much the companionship, although it may be

657
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: it's the fact you have to get up and take

658
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 3: your dog out outside. First thing in the morning, you

659
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: get your phone tom shower, which then gives you that

660
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: morning light that keeps the clock on queue.

661
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. There's been other research done on longevity and

662
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: pet owners. They seem to live a year or two longer.

663
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: Melita will live till she's two hundred because she loves animals.

664
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: When I was thinking about talking to you, and I

665
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: was just I think I was making a cup of tea,

666
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about sleep in general, of which

667
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: I know very little about the science. But it dawned

668
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: on me that knowing the bit that I do about

669
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: what inadequate, consistently inadequate sleep can do to a brain

670
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: and a person and moods and mental health and all

671
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: of that, it's a little wonder that they used, and

672
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: have used sadly, sleep deprivation as a form of torture

673
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: in the Wars.

674
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And in some sense we're using sleep

675
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 3: as a form of torture today. I mean that's perhaps

676
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 3: a bit exaggerated, but you know, it's worth bearing in mind.

677
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: Who in society is not getting the sleep that they need. Well,

678
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 3: it's poor people who are forced to work night shift work,

679
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 3: and you know, we did a study in the UK

680
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 3: a few years ago and we were looking at kids

681
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 3: and we ask them, does anybody share your sleeping space? Thinking,

682
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 3: you know, do you share your bedroom with any What

683
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 3: we didn't ask is do you have a bed? And

684
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: as a result of you know, these studies, we discovered

685
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 3: that these kids, many of them, didn't have a bed.

686
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 3: They were sleeping on the family sofa and so, you know,

687
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: so they get screwed up sleep. They go to school,

688
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 3: they're tired, they can't fully appreciate, you know, education. So

689
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 3: without sleep, you know, you're on that track of being

690
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 3: marginalized because of your educational attainment, and therefore you're on

691
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 3: this still track. And I think that that in a sense,

692
00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: poverty and low as socioeconomic groups are aligned with poor sleep,

693
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 3: and it's something that we haven't done anything about. And

694
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: we've got to prioritize this because we're then sort of

695
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 3: marginalizing a whole group of individuals, and this is wrong

696
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: in my view.

697
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: Do you think that I don't know the way that

698
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: we live now, modernity and technology and the fact that

699
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: we've got everything at our fingertips all the time, including

700
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: bright light twenty four hours a day, if we want.

701
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: It has that kind of disconnected us a little bit

702
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: from our biology. You know that internal I call it

703
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: biological sat nav. You know that that biological guidance system

704
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: that we've all got but we seem not to pay

705
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: attention to yet.

706
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 3: No, you're completely right, and we have a sense divorced.

707
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: You know. It's humans. We are such an incredibly arrogant

708
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: species and it's been part of our success. But also

709
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 3: you know, we've also created problems for ourselves. We think

710
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 3: we can do whatever we want at what a time

711
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: we choose, ignoring the fact that we are part of

712
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: a biological evolution which is timestamped, literally timestamped our entire biology,

713
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 3: and we can't do whatever we like whenever we choose.

714
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 3: And we've got to embrace this again now having said

715
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 3: that we are in a twenty four to seven society,

716
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: it's no good saying, you know, we're going to stop that,

717
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: it's not going to stop. But what we've got to

718
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 3: do is use the science that we have at the

719
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: moment to mitigate some of the problems. And of course

720
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 3: those problems are the most acute in night shift workers

721
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 3: and so for example of the study from the UK

722
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 3: showing that fifty seven percent of junior doctors had either

723
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 3: had a crash or a near miss driving home after

724
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 3: the night shift. So why the heck are we not

725
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 3: providing vigilance devices on the dashboard, you know, either on

726
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: an app or some other sub clip on which can

727
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 3: detect head roll or the fact that car is moving

728
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 3: laterally set off an alarm and wakes you up. Now

729
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: there's that's load loads of technology that could actually make

730
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 3: or difference. It's been estimated that in the States at

731
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 3: least between one hundred thousand and three hundred thousand crashes

732
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 3: on the freeway are people falling asleep at the wheel

733
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 3: in the early hours of the morning. Knowing that night

734
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: shift workers have greater levels of obesity, diabetes to culinary

735
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: heart disease, what type of food do we make available

736
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 3: to our night shift workers. Well, it's high fat, it's

737
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 3: high sugar, and what we should be providing is rich protein,

738
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 3: easy to digest snacks throughout the night. To my knowledge,

739
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 3: no employer anywhere is making provision for the appropriate sort

740
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: of nutrition for those night shift workers. Knowing again that

741
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 3: in some sectors the divorce rate is six times higher

742
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 3: for night shift workers, compared to day shift workers. What

743
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: are we doing about that? Why aren't we providing the

744
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 3: education to those workers saying this is the risk that

745
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: you've got to you know, you've got to be aware of.

746
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: But also not you, but your family. They need to

747
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: know that the job is going to make you less empathetic,

748
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 3: more irritable, less lovable and reducing a sense of humor.

749
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: We've got to get education in that area. And finally,

750
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I'm granting out, but this is this is

751
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: easy to do stuff. Knowing that there's people with shortened sleep,

752
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: primarily night shift workers. Our frontline staff often have high

753
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: rates of heart disease, you know, diabetes, to all these

754
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 3: cancer as well, Why aren't we doing high frequency health

755
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: checks to catch these conditions in this sector before they

756
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: become chronic. So yeah, I would. It would be absurd

757
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 3: to say we're going to put the twenty four seven

758
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: genie back in its bottle. But what we can do

759
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 3: is mitigate some of the problems instead of burying our

760
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 3: head on the sand and ignoring it. And that's what

761
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: we I think all of us need to do up

762
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: through our governments and hopefully well intentioned employers, towards their

763
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: employees love it.

764
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: All right, A few quick quikies, well, although take your time,

765
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: I mean, from me, a few quickies. Number one, alarm

766
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: clocks good bed indifferent.

767
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 3: If you need an alarm clock to get you out

768
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 3: of bed, you're probably not getting the sleep you need. However,

769
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: realistically yeah, I mean, many of us need them, but

770
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: be aware you're probably not getting the sleep need. The

771
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 3: big thing about these alarm clocks is that if they're

772
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 3: these digital ones with a lighted dial. Now, what happens

773
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: is that you wake up in the middle of the night,

774
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 3: and that's the norm. Incidentally, the normal human sleeping pattern

775
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 3: is to wake up, probably fall back to sleep immediately.

776
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 3: And if you don't fall back to sleep immediately, then

777
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 3: you'll get back to sleep fairly, fairly quickly. That is

778
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 3: the normal pattern of human sleep. Problem is most people

779
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: don't know that, so they wake up and they think,

780
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 3: oh my god, that's it. I'm never going to get

781
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 3: back to sleep again. Start doing the email, start drinking coffee.

782
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 3: Whereas if you stay calm, keep the lights low, do

783
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 3: something relaxing, you will fall back to sleep again. The

784
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 3: problem is people wake up, they see their illuminated dial thing,

785
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 3: oh my goodness, I've only got an hour and a

786
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 3: half before I've got the alarm goes off. They get

787
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: all anxious, stressed, and then they can't get back to

788
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 3: sleep again. So many people, you know, the important information

789
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 3: is when the alarm goes off, not how many hours

790
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 3: or minutes you've got before it goes off. So cover

791
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 3: up the dial are those illuminated alarms.

792
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: And the irony is that you wake up and then

793
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 1: you think I've only got an hour and a half

794
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: to go, and you get anxious and which you know

795
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: all of the things that happen with that, and then

796
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: you don't sleep well. But also the other side of

797
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: that is when you don't sleep adequately, that increases anxiety

798
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: through the day.

799
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And in fact most people don't have a

800
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 3: sleep problem, they have a stress and an anxiety problem.

801
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: And so that's why it's really important towards the end

802
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 3: of the day to step back and do something relaxing,

803
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 3: whether it be it's interesting. I was very rude about

804
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: mindfulness when it first surfaced. I sort of had it

805
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 3: in the same box as crystal, But actually that was wrong,

806
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: and I regret my arrogance over that, because in fact

807
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 3: it's a great way of it's a relaxation technique and

808
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 3: it's one of those things that many people find useful

809
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: to wind down at the end of the end of

810
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: the day. And those are the sorts of things we've

811
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 3: got to be doing. It's been really difficult during lockdown because,

812
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 3: of course the sleeping space has also been in many

813
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 3: cases the office as well. So you've got stuffed in

814
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 3: your bedroom all of those detracted you know, those things

815
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 3: that will keep you awake, the computer. You know, I

816
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: just checked my meme as before I go to bed,

817
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 3: and all of that stuff. And really what we should

818
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 3: be having is the bedroom is this wonderful haven where

819
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 3: we can retreat to and embrace. Sleep has this wonderful

820
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 3: enhancing behavior. I don't know about Australians, but the Brits

821
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 3: are kind of a bit mean where it comes to

822
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 3: bedding and pillows and all that sort of stuff. And

823
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 3: you know, for a third of our lives we should

824
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: indulge in a good rap, not indulge. We should buy

825
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 3: a good mattress, good pillows, good douvet, and so make

826
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: sure that the se sleeping space is optimized. You know,

827
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 3: you feel comfortable and it's a wonderful place to be.

828
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: All right, that makes sense, you know what you said

829
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: about I mean, all of it makes sense. But I

830
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: was just thinking then about stress and anxiety are the

831
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: problem and likes. It's almost like sleep is the symptom.

832
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: But if you treat the problem stress and anxiety, then

833
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: the sleep will take care of itself.

834
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, absolutely, And we've got to be very careful

835
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 3: about distinguishing between sleep, sleepiness, and fatigue. So given the

836
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 3: opportunity we can get rid of sleepiness by sleeping more,

837
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 3: fatigue is something different. Fatigue is this lethargy, this again sleepiness,

838
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 3: But given an extended opportunity to sleep, the fatigue doesn't

839
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: go away. Classic, of course is long COVID people are

840
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 3: incredibly fatigued even though they're sleeping more. And you've got

841
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: to distinguish between sleepiness and fatigue because fatigue is usually

842
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 3: some indication of an underlying health problem. And see got

843
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 3: to see your general practitioner to make sure that there's

844
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 3: no there's no sort of illness that you're aware of,

845
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: that you're unaware of that's causing the fatigue. It's such

846
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: an important issue.

847
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: We spoke broadly before about the relationship between sleep and

848
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: cognitive function. What about more specifically proft between sleep and dementia.

849
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: Do we know anything about that?

850
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting question, and it's one of

851
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: those areas that's that's bloomed in the past past ten

852
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: years or so. Whilst we sleep, there's a thing in

853
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 3: the in the brain, in the central nervous system called

854
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 3: the glymphatic system. It's like a waste disposal unit, and

855
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: what it does is get rid of some misfolded proteins

856
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 3: and other rubbish. But these misfolded proteins are the beta amyloids,

857
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 3: and the beta amorloids have been associated with building up

858
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 3: in the brain and causing dementia and Alzheimer's. And you know,

859
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: one night of no sleep can you can statistically see

860
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: an increased in beta amyloid within the cerebral spinal fluid

861
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: and deposited within the brain. So another really important element

862
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 3: of sleep is to get rid of these toxic compounds. However,

863
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 3: what this may explain is the fact that poor sleep

864
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 3: in the middle years increases your risk for Alzheimer's and

865
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 3: dementia in the later years. So you know it's we

866
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 3: are if by not taking our sleep seriously during the

867
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 3: middle years and not defending it. We are sort of

868
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: potentially in not everybody, it's going to be those individuals

869
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 3: who are vulnerable are increasing their chances of these appalling,

870
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 3: debilitating conditions later on. Interestingly, the generation coming through I

871
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 3: always forget the numbers, whether the XYZ or whatever, but

872
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: the thirty year olds are actually getting on average twenty

873
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 3: to thirty minutes small sleep every night than the forty

874
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 3: and fifty year olds. It looks as though the generation

875
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: coming through are not prepared to put the same old

876
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 3: sure and actually indulging, you know, not indulging, but they're

877
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 3: actually embracing sleep sensibly. Good on you, youngsters.

878
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, good on you youngsters. Now, I did hear with

879
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: you chatting with I forget his name, he's British MD.

880
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: I think do you remember him anyway, It doesn't matter.

881
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: It was a podcast. He was great, you were great anyway,

882
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: So clearly he made an.

883
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 3: I never listened to them. It just whatever, I don't know.

884
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 3: It just I feel cringe when I hear my own

885
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: voice on the reader. So I the only when I

886
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 3: did a Ted talk. It took me half about two

887
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 3: weeks for I have the courage to watch this thing.

888
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I'm with you. I've done about nine

889
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy of these and I have not listened

890
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: to one whole episode. I've listened to bits, but have

891
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: I sat and listened start finished to me and I haven't.

892
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: Now I did re coil with a modicum of alarm

893
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: when I heard you say people who take blood pressure

894
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: medication and maybe something else need to take it out right.

895
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: Not in the morning now, thanks to my mum and dad.

896
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: Shout out to Ron and Mary. Not because I drink

897
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: or smoke, because I don't, or not because of any

898
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: lifestyle behavior, but because of my genetics. I have to

899
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: take blood pressure medication and forever I've been taking in

900
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: the morning until tomorrow when I start or tonight. Well

901
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: I can't take it tonight because they already taken Tell

902
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: me about that. Why do people with was it just

903
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: blood pressure or any other medication as well?

904
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 3: Well, it's other medications as well, so aspirin for example,

905
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 3: your proton pump inhibitors, your startings, these will all have

906
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 3: a time of day effect and it's called chronopharmacology. And

907
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 3: it can't and it makes sense, you know, we have

908
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 3: this dynamic biology. So no surprise. Different drugs have different

909
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 3: effects different times. Perhaps, you know. One of the early

910
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 3: pioneers in this was Bill Hereski from the States, who

911
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 3: was looking at anti cancer medications, and he showed that

912
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 3: the same cocktail of chema therapy given at two different

913
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 3: times resulted in over five years forty five percent survival

914
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: from ovarian cancer in one group and ten percent ten

915
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 3: percent survival in another group. So this is same drug,

916
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 3: same concentration, different time, big effects. So cancer is a

917
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 3: really interesting one. Childhood leukemia, for example, an old study

918
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: showed that late afternoon early evening was much more effective

919
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 3: than morning therapy, you know, and I think the fact

920
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 3: was something like four point six Those kids having their

921
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 3: chemo in the morning were four point six times greater

922
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: risk than those that have it in the late afternoon

923
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 3: early evening. If you invented a drug that changed those

924
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 3: odds in that way you're talking about your Nobel price,

925
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 3: you'd be off to Stockholm to get it. We can

926
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: do that by timing, and so there's been over one

927
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 3: hundred drugs with a shown time of day effect. Now,

928
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 3: the anti hypertensis that you talk about, the data had

929
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 3: a huge impact. So this study suggested that over. I

930
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 3: think it was a twenty year period. Taking the drug

931
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: before you went to bed rather than first thing in

932
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 3: the morning, halved your chances of a stroke or heart attack. Now,

933
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 3: what's really important and what is uncontrab what is absolutely

934
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 3: shown by every group that studied it, is that there's

935
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 3: a fifty percent greater chance of having a stroke between

936
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 3: six am and twelve noon, and that's associated with a

937
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 3: sharp rise in blood pressure driven by the clock and

938
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 3: then activity, you know, to get all those nutrients and

939
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 3: add oxygen to the tissues, but also plateleot stickiness. Blood

940
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 3: stickiness is also at its peak at that time in

941
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 3: the morning. So why taking a drug before you go

942
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 3: to bed has it has a better effect than first

943
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 3: thing in the morning when you know when it's the

944
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 3: critical time? And of course it's called the pharmokinetics as

945
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 3: it were, of the drug. Essentially the time you know

946
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 3: you've taken it, the time it's got into the system,

947
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: the time it's you know, become active, and it's half

948
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 3: life how long it hangs around other critical agents. Now,

949
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 3: if you take it in the morning, you're already halfway

950
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 3: through that risk zone of stroke, and the drug with

951
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 3: the time it gets the full efficacy is actually going

952
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 3: to be several hours after the peak of the danger zone.

953
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 3: So the argument is you take it and before you

954
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 3: go to bed. The drug has a long half life

955
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 3: and therefore is around when it intersects with that dangerous

956
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 3: six am to twelve noon window. Now, I should say

957
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 3: there's a study that's either just published or about to

958
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 3: be published which suggests that that difference is not as

959
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 3: as profound as the original study said. So I think

960
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 3: it still makes sense if I were taking anti hypertensives,

961
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 3: I take them before going to bed than first thing

962
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: in the morning. One of the interesting ones is aspirin though,

963
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 3: because aspirin is very good at reducing the stickiness. It's

964
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 3: a blood thinner and many people take it but it

965
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,959
Speaker 3: it lasts in the body for a relative short period

966
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 3: of time. Only you know, peak concentration is just a

967
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 3: few hours. So again, how can taking aspirin before you

968
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 3: go to bed be effective in reducing that dangerous six

969
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 3: am twelve noon window. Well, the really cool live information

970
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 3: is that the platelets which are causing this stickiness are

971
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 3: made at night. When they encounter aspirin, their stickiness is eliminated,

972
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 3: so that the drag is around when the new platelets

973
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 3: are being made, so by next morning the blood is

974
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 3: already less less sticky because the platelets have been effectively

975
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: turned off. So there's lots of ways in which we're

976
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 3: discovering that the timing of drugs is so important vaccination.

977
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 3: I think this is a really interesting one. So for

978
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 3: the flu vaccine, again, this is a twenty sixteen study.

979
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 3: It showed that morning vaccination in a group of sixty

980
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: five to seventy year olds was three times more effective

981
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 3: than afternoon vaccination in generating an antibody response. And that's

982
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 3: for the flu. People are looking at COVID now there's

983
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 3: been a few studies. They're not randomized control trials, so

984
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 3: it's a bit messy, so we don't really know what's

985
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 3: going on with COVID. But there's a whole range of studies,

986
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 3: you know, showing that our immune system is turn up

987
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 3: during the day, and then towards the late afternoon, early

988
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,919
Speaker 3: evening it gets turned down and it is lower at night.

989
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 3: And again that makes sense. It's turned up when we're

990
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 3: encountering other encountering other people and most likely to encounter bugs.

991
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 3: It's turned down when we're less likely to encounter people

992
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 3: and bugs. So you could say, well, why isn't the

993
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 3: immune system turned on at full throttle all the time.

994
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 3: The problem, of course is autoimmune diseases, so it's probably

995
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 3: we don't know the answer, but it's probably showing the

996
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 3: circadian timing because it's turned up when it's needed and

997
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 3: it's turned down when it's not needed quite so much

998
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: to avoid the problems of autoimmune responses.

999
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: Wow, I've never even i mean other than when they

1000
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: say take you know, take an anti in flame twice

1001
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: a day with food or something right, which is you know,

1002
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: indicative of when to take it. But that am versus

1003
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: PM versus afternoon. I've never even have you considered that, Melissa,

1004
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: not once? No, it's amazing, and like, that's excuse my language,

1005
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 1: that's fucking profound. Why is everybody not shouting this from

1006
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: the rooftops.

1007
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's the really interesting issue. I mean,

1008
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 3: it's we've we in some cases we need more studies,

1009
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 3: but in other cases, and I've talked to my friends

1010
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 3: about this and they say, look, our healthcare services are

1011
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 3: running as fast as we can to stay where we are.

1012
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 3: You know, it's the whole red Queen thing. If you

1013
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: then impose an additional layer of complexity on our treatment regimes,

1014
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 3: which is time. Then we're going to be completely We

1015
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 3: just don't have the bandwidth, the capacity to deal with it.

1016
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 3: And so I spoke to a young trainee medic. I said, okay,

1017
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 3: you know, we did a three week intensive module and

1018
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 3: at the end of it we did the debrief and

1019
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 3: I said, you know, okay, so you guys, you know

1020
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 3: you've seen the data. Are you signed up to this?

1021
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 3: Do you think it's important? And they everybody said yes.

1022
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 3: I said, well, how are we going to introduce it?

1023
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 3: You know, for the reason that we said the state

1024
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 3: healthcare systems overwhelmed it's just too much. And this kid

1025
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 3: said to me, well, it's obvious. You introduce it in

1026
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 3: the private healthcare sector, you show its efficacy and that

1027
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,479
Speaker 3: provides the database which will then force the state health

1028
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 3: systems to take attempt to pay attention to this. So

1029
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 3: a very pragmatic view, I'm not sure. I mean, I

1030
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 3: think what we need is education throughout the sector, but

1031
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 3: both from the patients talking to their doctors and saying,

1032
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 3: well what time of day should I take this medication?

1033
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: And that will also encourage the doctors to try and

1034
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 3: make the time to be aware of this stuff. Part

1035
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 3: of the problem, of course, is that, as we've touched on,

1036
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 3: in a five year training a medic may only have

1037
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,439
Speaker 3: two three lectures on sleeping clocks. And so that's why

1038
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 3: we've adopted within the Sleep in Cicadian Neuroscience Institute here

1039
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,919
Speaker 3: in Oxford, the first, you know, fully online master's degree

1040
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 3: in Sleep Medicine. We've got a lot of people in

1041
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 3: Australia taking it, They're taking it all over the world

1042
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 3: where healthcare professionals can become aware of this data, the

1043
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 3: importance of sleep, how to achieve better sleep, what sleeps about,

1044
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 3: what are Cicadian rims about, and then use this science

1045
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 3: to advise individuals and deliver better medications.

1046
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: So when some it comes out and they've got their degree,

1047
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: their master's in sleep health, what are they? Are they

1048
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: a sleep health expert?

1049
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 3: What will I guess? Yeah, I guess you could. We

1050
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 3: haven't been thinking of it in that way. Essentially, we've

1051
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 3: just tried to sort of compensate for the lack of

1052
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: education in this space. And the people that are signing

1053
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 3: up to this course are saying, well, cracky, that's making

1054
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 3: I am now better as a healthcare professional because I

1055
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 3: know this stuff, and so that's the being the logic,

1056
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 3: and I think that's the motivation for most people. I'm

1057
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 3: not I'm not aware of people setting up after this

1058
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 3: master's degree a sort of sleep advisors other than within

1059
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 3: their sort of normal day job. And I think that's

1060
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 3: that's the exciting thing for us, us because it's providing

1061
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 3: that the framework for this this education that is lacking

1062
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 3: across most most medical education programs. It's just one last thing.

1063
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 3: It's worth bearing in mind that our drug test so

1064
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 3: quite rightly, we test our drugs first of all on mice,

1065
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 3: you know, to make sure that there's nothing really bad

1066
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 3: going on, and then we go to humans. But of

1067
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 3: course mice are night active animals and we are day

1068
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 3: active animals, and so our time biology is completely different.

1069
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 3: And there was a study done fairly recently showing that

1070
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 3: you know, people had gone in research has gone in

1071
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 3: in the morning given an anti stroke medication to mice

1072
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 3: who had an induced stroke, and this was given first

1073
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 3: thing in the morning, and it really improved the outcomes

1074
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 3: of that induced stroke. So they then took it to

1075
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 3: humans and they went in gave it to humans first

1076
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 3: thing in the morning and it had no effect at all.

1077
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 3: And so if you think about it, the mice were

1078
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 3: a beginning of their sleep phase, humans were beginning of

1079
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: their active phase, went back, gave it to mice in

1080
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 3: the beginning of their active phase. It didn't work. So

1081
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 3: there's a an argument that we may have sitting on

1082
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 3: the shelves around the world some incredibly powerful drugs for

1083
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 3: health which when they were initially screened in mice, were

1084
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: done at the wrong time, and therefore we've missed some

1085
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 3: incredible opportunities. There's an argument that, you know, we should

1086
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 3: go back and test these drugs, retest these drugs at

1087
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 3: different times and see if there's an important time of

1088
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 3: day effect.

1089
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, right. The last question is courtesy of my mother.

1090
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: She's eighty three. Her name's Mary Harper. Mary asks, oh,

1091
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: how I professor, She says. My mum used to say

1092
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: to me, I don't know if this is bullshit, so

1093
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: I need I need. It's bullshit, it's true or it's

1094
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 1: kind of true. The sleep that we get before midnight

1095
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: is like like an hour before midnight is worth two

1096
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: hours after midnight or something like that, like the sleeper

1097
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: is more valuable or something. Is that bullshit.

1098
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 3: I can't answer that, but what I can say is

1099
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 3: that there may be a basis for it, because, as

1100
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 3: you know, sleep is divided up into these deep sleep,

1101
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 3: slow wave sleep, and then sleep, and we have a

1102
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 3: series of these cycles depending on seventy to ninety minutes

1103
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 3: throughout the night. Now we have more deeper slow wave

1104
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 3: sleep during the first half of the night compared to

1105
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 3: the second half of the night. And it's been argued

1106
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 3: that deeper sleep is associated with memory consolidation and the

1107
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 3: processing of information. So it may not be completely daft,

1108
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 3: and there is you can think about it having some

1109
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 3: some relevance. I mean, but the studies haven't really been

1110
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 3: done right, all right.

1111
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: Well you're a gun. That's a good thing. You're a gun.

1112
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: The name of the Proft's book is called a Lifetime's

1113
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: written a bunch of Have you written a bunch of books, now,

1114
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: haven't you?

1115
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 3: I have? Yes. But this is the first sole author

1116
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 3: one and the first one which is truly I think,

1117
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 3: accessible for everybody.

1118
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: So this is a user friendly book. This is not

1119
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 1: your academic tomb that's going to blow your head off.

1120
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 1: It's called Lifetime. Your body clock and its essential roles

1121
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: in good health and sleep, Professor Russell Foster. Where else

1122
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: do you want to steer people, sir, Anything any website,

1123
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: any social media platform, or any anything that you want

1124
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: to point our audience towards.

1125
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 3: I mean, clearly, what I'd like to do is read

1126
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 3: Lifetime and really come away with the fact that there's

1127
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 3: a lot of really good science that they can use

1128
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 3: to improve their individual health and happiness. You know, as

1129
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 3: I sort of say at the end of the book,

1130
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 3: the stupid and the wise will die. In the end

1131
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 3: Circadian wise, you know, on average, will live live better,

1132
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 3: live longer, be healthier, and actually enjoy the company of

1133
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 3: others and the world and all the opportunities the world

1134
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 3: has to offer. So I just think I want people

1135
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 3: to embrace this area of science and not get frightened

1136
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 3: of it, and to use it to their best advantage.

1137
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 1: Was it liberating? Last question or promise? Was it liberating

1138
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: writing without having to be so bloody particular about referencing

1139
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: everything and bit like, just to be able to tell

1140
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 1: stories and speak from your own experience and observation. Was

1141
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: it liberating?

1142
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 3: Well, there's two parts to that, Craig, Because in fact,

1143
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 3: every bit of science is referenced, and what was interesting

1144
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 3: is that Penguin didn't kick back on the fact that

1145
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 3: there are nine hundred and twenty one references. So the

1146
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 3: key thing for me was that people could look up

1147
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 3: the science for themselves, but the text itself was accessible,

1148
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 3: and as soon as I began to feel comfortable writing

1149
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 3: in a different way, then it was great. It was

1150
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 3: a bit liberating. But for me, it's okay being accessible,

1151
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 3: but the science has got to be as rigorous as possible,

1152
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 3: and as I say, all of those scientific facts are

1153
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 3: referenced within the book.

1154
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 1: I'd expect nothing less. We will say goodbye to you

1155
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: officially off air, but for the moment, thanks so much.

1156
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: You're bloody brilliant. We think you're asin Thanks for being

1157
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: part of the You project for an hour.

1158
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 3: Well thanks Craig and Melissa. I really enjoyed it.

1159
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: Thank you sir, Thank you Melissa, Thank you everyone.