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Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigall

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Speaker 1: people of the Euran Nation.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe Hildebrand.

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Speaker 2: I'm Joe Hildebrand and this is the real story behind

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Speaker 2: what is happening in the news this week and what

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Speaker 2: a week it has been. Donald Trump another assassination attempt?

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Speaker 2: What is going on here? How many times are these

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Speaker 2: guys going to try to get rid of this guy?

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Speaker 2: And how much is he going to go up in

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Speaker 2: the polls every time they do? Plus they say all

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Speaker 2: politics is local. So what do the New South Wales

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Speaker 2: local government elections mean for Anthony Albanezi and the Labor government?

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Speaker 2: And we talk to the man behind the breaking of

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Speaker 2: the Heston Russell scandal that has engulfed the ABC. All

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Speaker 2: that more coming up first up this week, I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about the New South Wales local guverm elections. Now,

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of you don't live in New

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Speaker 2: South Wales, and I know that even those of you

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Speaker 2: who do live in New South Wales don't give a

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Speaker 2: rats ask about local government elections. But this is the

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Speaker 2: first real test of where the various political parties stand

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Speaker 2: since there's been the blow up in the cost of

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Speaker 2: living crisis and the blow up of course in the

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Speaker 2: war in the Middle East. And the really weird thing

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Speaker 2: about these local government elections was that a lot of

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Speaker 2: ways the biggest issue wasn't about local government at all.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it was about a war that was taking

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Speaker 2: place in the Middle East is still taking place in

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Speaker 2: the Middle East. You had campaign posters core flutes of

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Speaker 2: labor candidates, especially because they were associated with the federal government,

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Speaker 2: accusing them of genocide. I didn't really know that the

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Speaker 2: Australian government was committing any genocide, and I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: that labor councils aren't committing genocide. I don't think they

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Speaker 2: actually have that power in their by laws. But this

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Speaker 2: was the campaign that was being waged against them. Again,

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Speaker 2: had cor flutes splashed with red paint because like it's

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Speaker 2: like blood, get it, because they've got blood on their hands.

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Speaker 2: You had core flutes of for example, the Inner West

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Speaker 2: mayor Darcy Byrne, not just being splashed with red paint

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Speaker 2: but also slashed with a knife, which is pretty ugly.

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Speaker 2: And again other core flutes in the Inner West and

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Speaker 2: Waverley Council, So the Inner West and the Eastern suburbs,

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Speaker 2: real battler suburbs there, and this is obviously something that's

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Speaker 2: resonating with the workers of Australia. But yes, in the

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Speaker 2: leaf of Leafy Inner East and Inner West suburbs, that's

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Speaker 2: all they can talk about, apparently the war in Gaza

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Speaker 2: and how that this has to be tackled along with rates,

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Speaker 2: roads and rubbish, Hey can you fix my potholes? And

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Speaker 2: also the situation in the Middle East. I saw it

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Speaker 2: with my own eyes at the place where I was voting.

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Speaker 2: There were labor candidates there and labor volunteers hanging out

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Speaker 2: how to vote cards and handed it to one person

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Speaker 2: who's walking in. They just said, free Palestine. Well, given

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Speaker 2: that they're just trying to get elected to a local

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Speaker 2: council ward, I don't think they have the power to

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Speaker 2: free Palestine. I have to go back and check. But

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Speaker 2: you know, if the entire UN can't free Palestine, how

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Speaker 2: do they expect the Inn West Council to do it?

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Speaker 2: And this is the insanity of it. Not only is

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Speaker 2: it just incredibly stupid, because you're just talking to someone

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Speaker 2: who has absolutely no power, no ability, nor indeed motivation

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Speaker 2: to do what you're demanding. They do, which of course

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Speaker 2: you yourself are incapable of doing. But it's also insulting.

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Speaker 3: It's also I care so much about genocide and all

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Speaker 3: the thousands of innocent people being killed that I'm going

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Speaker 3: to stab a core flute.

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Speaker 2: It's like you're in the wrong place. Mate. Go and

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Speaker 2: join Save the children, Go and join an aid organization.

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Speaker 2: Maybe go and try to fly into Gaza. You can

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Speaker 2: put your life on your line, the money where you're out,

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Speaker 2: that's how you care that much. Or you could just

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Speaker 2: you could do a degree in international relations. You could

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Speaker 2: become a diplomat, help negotiate a peace settlement between his

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Speaker 2: own guys. Or you could just speak to you know,

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Speaker 2: your local MP. You could write a letter because maybe

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Speaker 2: they then could have a vote on Australia's position. But no,

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Speaker 2: you'd much rather just throw paint around, sit outside on

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Speaker 2: a deck chair outside a local MP's office, or maybe

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Speaker 2: smash their window a bit of that, but that maybe

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Speaker 2: deface the war memorial. But no, that's not enough. You've

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Speaker 2: got to go local. Think global, act local. So you

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Speaker 2: go after your local government candidate, your local council candidate,

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Speaker 2: or maybe not even the candidate, maybe just a volunteer

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Speaker 2: who's handing out how to vote. Cut with that, because

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Speaker 2: that'll show them they're going to go on, They're gonna

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Speaker 2: go what's the first order of business. Oh, we're going

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Speaker 2: to free Palestine. Okay, all those in favor. That'll work.

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Speaker 2: And it's also so insulting to the import of what

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Speaker 2: is happening. The importancevity of what's happening is terrible. What's

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Speaker 2: happening in Gaza. There is no question that the thousands

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Speaker 2: of people being killed by air strikes and other methods

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Speaker 2: in Gaza, it's awful. It's a tragedy. And the idea

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Speaker 2: that you would respond to that awful tragedy by kicking

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Speaker 2: up a stink at your local government level, by kicking

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Speaker 2: up a stink in front of some volunteer handing out

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Speaker 2: how to vote cards for a council candidate. But how

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Speaker 2: has this actually gone, how has this actually affected the

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Speaker 2: local government results? Well? An Insider has produced a few

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Speaker 2: little interesting tidbits, a couple actually on both both sides.

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Speaker 2: One is the Greens have lost or failed to regain

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Speaker 2: mayoralties in Randwick Eastern suburbs, where the Greens MP was

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Speaker 2: very very pro Palestine as well as a Byron Tweed,

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Speaker 2: Bellingen and shoal Haven. We have all the tree changes

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Speaker 2: going on, and what happened in the Inner West where,

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Speaker 2: of course all the act of us absolutely all in

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Speaker 2: on Palestine. Well, the Greens did not get their mayoralty

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Speaker 2: and did not get a majority, so they can't even

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Speaker 2: get a majority or a meyorty in the Inner West.

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Speaker 2: Where are they going to go next? Penworth? I don't

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Speaker 2: think so, at least in Australian elections. No one is

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Speaker 2: actually trying to shoot the candidates. In America, they've actually

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Speaker 2: tried to shoot the same candidate twice. That's unlucky. Three

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Speaker 2: times you'd start to take it personally. But yes, Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump has suffered a second assassination attempt. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: just talking about what happened during the debate when he

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Speaker 2: said that people in Springfield, Ohio were eating their dogs.

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Speaker 2: That did not go particularly well. But that was just

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Speaker 2: a political assassination attempt, and a pretty successful one. This

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Speaker 2: was an actual, real life with a gun, just like

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Speaker 2: it was in that rally, tempt by a crazed gunman

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Speaker 2: who's now been taken into cassidy to actually shoot Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: The Secret Service this time actually spotted the bloke outs.

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Speaker 2: There are freshing turn of events, isn't it. And they

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Speaker 2: got a few shots off before he fled in his

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Speaker 2: car and then they arrested him and he's gone down

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Speaker 2: and he's he's just a crazy again. These people are

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Speaker 2: all over the shot. I think he volunteered to go

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Speaker 2: fight in Ukraine, strangely never made it there, but at

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Speaker 2: least came armed with his own gun, and he was

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Speaker 2: I think he voted for the Democrats, voting in a

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Speaker 2: Democrat primary I think in twenty twelve, but then said

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Speaker 2: that he voted for Donald Trump in twenty sixteen. This

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Speaker 2: guy is just all over the shop. And you offered

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Speaker 2: find that people who you know, want to go around

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Speaker 2: shooting presidential candidates are not usually repositories of the most

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Speaker 2: sort of considered, well thought out, balanced political theory. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know why these people and this guy, you know, again,

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Speaker 2: unlike the previous shooter, this guy is alive and we

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Speaker 2: know his background. We know that he really didn't like

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump. He said he felt terribly left let down

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Speaker 2: after he voted for him. He realized his terrible mistake

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Speaker 2: after he allegedly voted for him in twenty sixteen, and

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Speaker 2: obviously the only way to atone for that mistake for

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump, for voting for Donald Trump is to kill him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that just makes perfect sense to everybody. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, why not go to the golf. The guy

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Speaker 2: was playing golf, you know, who's at his most relaxed.

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Speaker 2: That's the meanest time to kill somebody. You know, he's

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Speaker 2: just chilling out, he's playing a few rounds. Secret Service

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Speaker 2: are out there advancing each hole at the time. This

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Speaker 2: is the most main thing. So the Secret Service apparently

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Speaker 2: is so overstretched they could have just scope out the

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Speaker 2: whole golf course at once. They had to go, all right,

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Speaker 2: he's on the eighth hole. Somebody better check out the ninth. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the ninth is clear, all right, I'll do the tenth.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what if the guy kept getting holes in one,

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Speaker 2: he'd ended up ahead of the Secret Service. Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: is safe, whether you're like that or not. The Democrats

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris and Joe bar of course falling over themselves safe.

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Speaker 2: How glad they are that he's safe. How glad they are,

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Speaker 2: and so they should be. Donald Trump is a human being. However,

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Speaker 2: why do these people keep trying to increase the popularity

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Speaker 2: of the bloke they say they hate so much. Now

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Speaker 2: Trump is actually taking a bit of a hit after

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Speaker 2: the debate, and I think he's probably lost the election

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Speaker 2: as a result of it. He was so close to

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Speaker 2: coming back, and the lead up to the debate, the

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Speaker 2: polls were tightening, and then he just has to go

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Speaker 2: and say after winning. The first half hour of the debate,

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Speaker 2: Karmala Harris sounded like she was just had no idea

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Speaker 2: what she was talking about. You'd say, you know, say

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Speaker 2: to Karmala Harris, what's two plus two? And she said, well,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a middle class family where we

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Speaker 2: were proud of our alliance. That's just not the answer.

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Speaker 2: How are you going to fix the cost of living crisis? Karmala, Well,

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a middle class family where we

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Speaker 2: were proud of our lawns. I was raised by a

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Speaker 2: mother and a second mother who was a small business person.

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Speaker 2: I don't support small business people. It took me the

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Speaker 2: value of small business. Yeah, So she keeps just saying

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Speaker 2: the same thing over and over again. Donald Trump came

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Speaker 2: in swinging, talking about border security, talking about the economy

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Speaker 2: areas where the Republican Party and Donald Trump are up

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Speaker 2: eight points or so, like huge margins over the Democrats.

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Speaker 2: Talking about all that, then he suddenly starts saying they're

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Speaker 2: eating their dogs, and I hate to break it to you,

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Speaker 2: it's just not true. There was someone who was allegedly

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Speaker 2: eating a cat. Turns out she's American. They've probably been

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Speaker 2: doing it for years. And so Trump Trump is down

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Speaker 2: and out. Trump's on the skids. He's got no comeback

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Speaker 2: for this. So what does someone go and do? Go

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Speaker 2: and make a martyr of him again. He was shot

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Speaker 2: up by half a dozen points the last time someone

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Speaker 2: tried to kill him, Amazing scenes, amazing shots, and now

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Speaker 2: they go and do it again. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to tell Donald Trump how to run his campaign,

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Speaker 2: but if he's worried about assassination attempts, I'd probably be

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Speaker 2: telling them people to do it more often. So another

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Speaker 2: big story in the week, which is all about the

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Speaker 2: real story behind them, the real story, which it turned

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Speaker 2: out was not a real story, is that of Heston

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Speaker 2: Russell and the way that this former Australian commando hero

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Speaker 2: soldier by any other definition, was dragged through the mud

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Speaker 2: by the ABC and someone who has been all over

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Speaker 2: this and has been in deep with the Heston Russell

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Speaker 2: story and how it all unfolded. Is my next guest.

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Speaker 2: The Great James Willis is the head of pretty much

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Speaker 2: everything at the Daily Telegraph but Daily Telegraph Television and

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Speaker 2: also was in the hot seat at two GB, which

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Speaker 2: first broke the Heston Russell scandal, namely that there was

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Speaker 2: no scandal attached to Heston Russell, no matter how the

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Speaker 2: AVC tried to portray it. But let's just rewind and

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Speaker 2: go back to where it all began. James Willison, Welcome

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Speaker 2: to the real story. How are you, Joe?

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Speaker 1: Great to see you can I applaud you for your

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Speaker 1: constant innovation finding ways to create content.

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Speaker 4: Another great podcast of loving it every week.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Number one fan Steve would be listening to this so

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Speaker 1: he loves you.

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Speaker 2: The old man clearly has an incredibly great pedigree in young,

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Speaker 2: good looking.

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Speaker 1: You keep finding ways to reinvent yourself and I think

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Speaker 1: the best people in our industry buit.

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Speaker 2: I keep getting fired. I wasn't going to say that.

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Speaker 4: Gigs right. Any network you haven't been on over the years.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there has been. You're brilliant. I love you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I didn't even know you're going

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Speaker 2: to say that, but now that you have the checks

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Speaker 2: in the mail, now you are also an absolute superstars

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Speaker 2: worked across all manner of media and you were right

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Speaker 2: there at the very beginning of when this Heston Russell

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Speaker 2: story broke. Firstly, just give us a bit of background.

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Speaker 2: Who is Heston Russell and what was his role in

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Speaker 2: the war in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: Heston Russell served in Afghanistan more than a decade ago.

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Speaker 1: He was the commander, the boss of an outfit called

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Speaker 1: November Platoon, who were with the commandos that were part

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Speaker 1: of Task Force sixty six, which is effectively our specialist

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Speaker 1: soldiers that did all the missions and all the frontline

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Speaker 1: combat in Afghanistan. He is a multi generational soldier, someone

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Speaker 1: that has been around the military since the age of

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Speaker 1: eighteen enlisted, rose through the ranks very quickly to be

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Speaker 1: in charge of this particular unit, and ultimately what happened

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Speaker 1: was when he left the military. In the years that followed,

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Speaker 1: we heard from the army that there were concerns about

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Speaker 1: possible allegations of war crimes. We had the Brereton Report

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Speaker 1: which ran for a number of years, and around about

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Speaker 1: that time the media started taking its own stance on

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Speaker 1: these things. The ABC was leading the charge, but there

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Speaker 1: were others that were beginning to highlight and allege a

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Speaker 1: number of claims of war crimes by Australian troops. Now

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Speaker 1: ultimately Heston was most probably the first soldier to come forward,

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Speaker 1: reveal what he did and begin to deny and fight

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Speaker 1: back against some of these claims by the ABC. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: when the ABC refused to apologize for an initial story

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Speaker 1: that we'll talk about soon, they then doubled down, wrote

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Speaker 1: more stories about him, looked into his private life, refused

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Speaker 1: to apologize, refused to take the stories down, and this

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Speaker 1: went all the way to the Federal Court where ultimately,

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Speaker 1: just as Michael Lee ruled that Heston had been defamed

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Speaker 1: in a series of stories and those stories have been

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Speaker 1: taken down. But it was only because of his fight,

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Speaker 1: which took four years in the end, that the ABC

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Speaker 1: was finally held to account. On Sunday night, Spotlight on

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Speaker 1: Channel seven did a whole one hour show on the

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Speaker 1: Hesson Russell defamation case.

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Speaker 4: And as part of that revealed.

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Speaker 1: That in one of the videos shown by the ABC

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Speaker 1: and its investigations reporter Mark Willersey, who's a Goldwalkley winner,

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Speaker 1: that it appeared that up to six gun shots had

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Speaker 1: been added to this mission video from Afghanistan. The ABC

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Speaker 1: was asked that question and they responded by taking that

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Speaker 1: video down and acknowledging that was an error. And that's

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Speaker 1: why this story has been big over the past few days.

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Speaker 1: And ultimately the ABC is now I believe, in damage

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Speaker 1: control about its entire war crimes coverage because they've had

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Speaker 1: to remove at least three stories from the Internet in

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Speaker 1: the past twelve months. But there are probably others that

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Speaker 1: are worthy of a second look given what has occurred here.

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Speaker 2: And this is an extraordinary development in a situation where

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Speaker 2: this comes post Justice Leese finding that in fact the

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Speaker 2: ABC had to fame Heston Russell and that its claims

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Speaker 2: are not substantiated. This is something that has emerged since then,

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Speaker 2: this alleged doctoring of the audio, so it sounded like

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Speaker 2: six shots appeared in a segment where in fact there

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Speaker 2: was just one shot, which we can dive into maybe later,

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Speaker 2: but just at the very beginning, he was the accusation

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Speaker 2: made by the ABC on seven point thirty I believe

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Speaker 2: was that he had or November Platoon had shot and

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Speaker 2: killed an Afghan civilian or a person and gotten on

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Speaker 2: a helicopter because there wasn't enough room otherwise on that helicopter,

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Speaker 2: which seems to be a pretty flippant reason to kill

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Speaker 2: somebody that would have raised a red flag with me.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, take us through the original charge as made.

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Speaker 1: So it was there's a technicality there because the initial

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Speaker 1: story did not mention November Platoon. It spoke about the

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Speaker 1: wider commando unit. But it was based on and this

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Speaker 1: story went to where in mid to late twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: in the lead up to the Brereton Report coming out,

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Speaker 1: and it was based on the account of a US

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Speaker 1: marine from a mission at that stage it would have

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Speaker 1: been eight years earlier, who had contacted the journalist Mark

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Speaker 1: Willersey and said I might have a story for you. However,

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Speaker 1: the marine set up front that his memory was hazy

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Speaker 1: or foggy of the incident. He didn't know who the

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Speaker 1: Australian soldiers were, he didn't know the specific dates. He

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Speaker 1: was really rough on details, and Mark Willersey sat him

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Speaker 1: down for an interview on camera, didn't conceal his face,

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Speaker 1: didn't name him, but his face was on camera this

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Speaker 1: US Marine, and the marine said that he was on

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Speaker 1: a helicopter evacuation mission in twenty twelve with the Australians.

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Speaker 1: He was in the helicopter at the time. You can

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Speaker 1: imagine the whirrying and all the noise. He had a

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Speaker 1: headset on and he'd heard a pop, a pop sound

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Speaker 1: over the radio, which he assumed was the Australian soldiers

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Speaker 1: executing an unarmed prisoner. He thought the pop was a gunshot.

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Speaker 1: He never saw anything. He never told anyone in command.

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Speaker 2: It was never.

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Speaker 1: Reported, and all those years later told that to journalist

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Speaker 1: Mark Willersey and Mark put that to air as a

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Speaker 1: claim of a new war crime allegation by the Australian

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Speaker 1: soldiers in the lead up to the major Brereton Report,

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Speaker 1: which found credible evidence of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is where it does get hazy, because this

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Speaker 2: is a thing that caught up most famously Ben Roberts Smith. Yes,

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Speaker 2: where another court case found on the balance of probabilities,

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Speaker 2: a civil court case, not a criminal one, it's important

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Speaker 2: to say, but on the balance of probabilities that he

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Speaker 2: did commit war crimes. And do you think there was

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Speaker 2: just a sort of rush of blood to the head

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Speaker 2: Here where a whole bunch of media outlets, perhaps the

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Speaker 2: ABC more especially, they have a history I suppose in

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Speaker 2: being quite critical of the military or reporting critically of

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Speaker 2: the armed forces, that they said, right, well, we've got

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Speaker 2: to find We've got to find there's war criminals everywhere.

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Speaker 2: We've just got to find them, because it seems to

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Speaker 2: me a very, as I said, spurious basis on which

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Speaker 2: to sort of hang pretty full on accusation.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it doesn't it wouldn't meet the threshold to

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Speaker 1: report on a range of other issues at the media

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Speaker 1: ports on every day for someone to hear something and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that was an execution. I mean, my editor would not

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Speaker 1: run that. I don't think you've worked with an editor

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Speaker 1: that would allow that to run without verifying it. That

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Speaker 1: was the only source for that story. And so Heston

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Speaker 1: Russell heard this, and he knew that he was in

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan when all this was going on, came forward and said,

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Speaker 1: I was with November Platoon. This did not happen, This

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Speaker 1: never happened, This mission didn't even occur. And it was

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Speaker 1: then that the ABC started to sort of go after

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Speaker 1: him effectively. Mark Willisy tried to FOI Freedom of information

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Speaker 1: the mission dates.

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Speaker 4: He got those wrong. It was clear that didn't match.

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Speaker 2: Up, so he wasn't even in the same place.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't even in the same place at that time.

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Speaker 1: They then wrote a second story to say that defense

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Speaker 1: had confirmed a criminal investigation into this mob November platoon

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Speaker 1: and reheated the pop allegation in that story named Heston

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Speaker 1: Russ in that story, even though he wasn't part of

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Speaker 1: any of the initial claims by the marine, and that

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Speaker 1: was where the defamation occurred.

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Speaker 4: And that was when the ABC had a real problem.

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Speaker 1: Had they acknowledged that in late twenty twenty one, the

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Speaker 1: entire court case could have been avoided and instead it

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Speaker 1: cost tax payers millions of dollars in legal fees and

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Speaker 1: everything else. But in regards to the ABC, I think

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Speaker 1: it's really you know, I don't subscribe to the let's

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Speaker 1: bash the ABC campaign because I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of good people there and I think they do some

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Speaker 1: excellent reporting. Historically, Four Corners and programs like that were

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Speaker 1: the things that would on a Tuesday morning you could

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Speaker 1: guarantee would be driving the agenda of the media and politics,

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Speaker 1: and the Prime Minister would be responding to the appoorly

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Speaker 1: allegations from last night, But in regards to war crimes,

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Speaker 1: the ABC ran a four or five year campaign where

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Speaker 1: it was clear that at every opportunity, every little bit

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Speaker 1: of footage, every claim, every rumor, the direction that they

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Speaker 1: took was to reheat that and present it to the

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Speaker 1: public like there were some bad eggs in the Australian

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Speaker 1: military and the entire force. You know, I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: the entire force, but there were many people involved in

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Speaker 1: breaking the rules of war, and I think for the

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Speaker 1: public broadcaster to do that caused enormous damage to the

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Speaker 1: perception of the military for a number of years in

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Speaker 1: the eyes of certain sections of the community, and that's terrible.

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Speaker 2: Joe, and you were the executive producer for ben Fordham

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Speaker 2: when all of this was exploding. You broke most, if

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Speaker 2: not all, I think of the major developments on the

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Speaker 2: Heston Russell side of things where the ABC had got

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Speaker 2: things wrong or where he was contesting it, the journalist

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Speaker 2: obviously got quite I think there was a moment where

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Speaker 2: Mark Willersey, the journalist, understandably perhaps was very stressed by

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Speaker 2: this sort of stuff. He was calling in and trying

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Speaker 2: to get his side of the story up, just to

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Speaker 2: talk us through what it was like in that kind

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Speaker 2: of pressure cooker environment where you had Heston Russell on

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Speaker 2: one side, Mark Willisy on the other, and you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of what has actually happened

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Speaker 2: to here.

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Speaker 1: Well, because the ABC initially refused to apologize or to

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Speaker 1: take this claim down, or even to accept Heston's complaint.

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Speaker 1: They said, oh, you've complained too late. We don't accept

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Speaker 1: complaints as late. Then basically, Ben on air on two

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Speaker 1: GB bashed this issue over and over again with any

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Speaker 1: new bit of information. We spoke to other soldiers, something

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Speaker 1: the ABC wasn't able to do. We spoke to other

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Speaker 1: soldiers that were part of November Platoon that all said

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Speaker 1: this did not happen. And eventually the ABC was forced

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Speaker 1: to accept this complaint. And then when they refuse to

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Speaker 1: take the story down and they only just put a

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Speaker 1: correction on there, which they do sometimes, which doesn't actually

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Speaker 1: fix the allegations in the first place, Heston took legal

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Speaker 1: action and that was when we continued to just cover

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Speaker 1: a little bit and you know, whatever was coming out

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Speaker 1: in the legal documents and everything else.

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Speaker 4: I remember the morning.

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Speaker 1: That I put a question to the ABC based on

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Speaker 1: what they had in their legal documents under their truth

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Speaker 1: defense when they were being sued by Heston Russell, which

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Speaker 1: said Heston Russell was seen shooting from a helicopter in

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Speaker 1: a video that we have. Now it turns out the

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Speaker 1: video Mark Willisy had was a highlights reel which was

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Speaker 1: fifteen seconds of what was a wider, you know, five

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Speaker 1: to ten minute mission that was on a helmet cap.

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Speaker 1: He believed, and he'd been told it was Heston shooting

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Speaker 1: from the helicopter in this mission. Heston had the raw

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Speaker 1: helmet footage and it was only when the camera turns

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Speaker 1: that you can see Heston's in the chopper, but he

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Speaker 1: was not firing the gun. That is the story that

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Speaker 1: has been allegedly docted by the ABC that we've heard

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Speaker 1: about this week. But when I asked the ABC about that,

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Speaker 1: instead of getting a call from publicity or someone in management,

434
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: the phone rang at about eight forty five one morning

435
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: when we were on air with two GB and I

436
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: didn't know the number, picked up and.

437
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:12,479
Speaker 4: I said hello.

438
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: His voice on the other end said James, it's Mark Willisy,

439
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: and then two to three minutes later he had stopped.

440
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: But it was a very aggressive and very angry phone

441
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: call where he basically told us to back off. That

442
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: was followed up with a call to a senior person

443
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: at two GB telling him that we should back off

444
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: as well, and that to me, I think there's an

445
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: old rule in journalism that if someone speaks to you

446
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: like that, you're on the right track, and to me,

447
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: that indicated that we were onto a good thing here.

448
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: To find journalism, I think is revealing things that people

449
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 2: don't want to be revealed. If you're pleasing people, you're

450
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 2: probably not doing it.

451
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: But it was a moment of madness from Willisey, who

452
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: is a long time journalist at the ABC, has won

453
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: multiple awards, is considered to be and this is the

454
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: whole thing with this, Joe, is that the ABC investigations

455
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: team is meant to count for something. If you see

456
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: it's an ABC investigation on a casino, or if it's

457
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: on you know, a corruption inquiry or a major story

458
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: that they spend months working on, then that there is

459
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: meant to be an integrity about that. And the way

460
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: they were reporting on war crimes was so far below

461
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: the standard of journalism that it wasn't funny.

462
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: And it is now coming home to roost in a

463
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 4: number of ways.

464
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: And this is I mean, it strikes me very much

465
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: as the sort of you know, after pride comes to fall.

466
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: The fact that they weren't prepared to just initially apologize,

467
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: correct the record and pay Hessan's legal feels fees, which

468
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 2: was all he was after in the first place, then

469
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: snowboard into this massive court case. It's been an embarrassing

470
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: finding against the poor Mark Willis's reputation because he again

471
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: and look, I think we all know as a journal

472
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: as a human being, it's hard to say sorry and

473
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: admit you're wrong. But it does seem to be that

474
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: because of this kind of stubbornness, they've just been driven

475
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper and deeper into the ground. And now

476
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: we have the revelation of this allegedly doctored audio of

477
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: a gun being fired six times in the audio that

478
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: was published on the website. In fact, it was only once,

479
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 2: and that six shot audio appears to have been duplicated

480
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 2: from another segment of the video and another round of

481
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 2: the gun. And normally you'd say, well, maybe that was

482
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: just a production era when they're putting it together, But

483
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 2: when you add it to all the other stuff that's

484
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: gone before, you think, well, hang on, could this actually

485
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: be the broadcaster are trying to retro fit this video

486
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 2: to their original Like again, it raises questions and suspicions

487
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: that would not have been there if they had have

488
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: just sort of fessed up and stuck to the straight

489
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 2: and arrow in the first place.

490
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

491
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what has gone on here in the

492
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: ABC is obviously investigating it. But I do know that

493
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: for any journalist and any newsroom that is working on

494
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: a big story like this, it is not the kind

495
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: of thing that you say to a junior member of

496
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: production or someone in the editing suite hates all yours

497
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: put it up. I might watch it one day. You're

498
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: sitting there, you're watching frame by frame, you're listening, you're

499
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: watching for errors and so without and look, Justin Stevens,

500
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: the boss of the ABC, has said they're looking into this,

501
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: and I until that comes out, I don't want to

502
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 1: say one way or another, but I think the idea

503
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: of this being an error is interesting to me because

504
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: when you in isolation, maybe, but as part of a

505
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: wider campaign, having already had to take down a number

506
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: of war crime stories for a number of reasons after

507
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: defaming someone. There's a new allegation we published in the

508
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: Daily Telegraph today in another story from someone from the

509
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: USD who served alongside Australian soldiers, who was told by

510
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: Mark willersey I wanted to do a positive story about

511
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: the Joint Task Force and Task Force sixty six in Afghanistan.

512
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: Was told I'm going to do a positive story. I'm

513
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: not interested in going down the negative path. And when

514
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: this man, Brett Hamilton, did the interview with the ABC,

515
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: he was asked an open, very reflective question about war

516
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: crimes in general and how they.

517
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 4: Should be reported on. He gave a very general answer

518
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 4: and then told us.

519
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: Today that he was appalled to discover that when it

520
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: went to where on the ABC at the end of

521
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: a twelve minute package where there'd been allegations of Australians

522
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 1: murdering Afghan prisoners, that his SoundBite, in his words, had

523
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: been manipulated to make it look like he was calling

524
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: for an investigation specifically into the Australian soldiers on that mission.

525
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 4: He wants the story taken down.

526
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: You can understand why, but these things, these hits keep coming,

527
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: and there'd be an argument to say, Hey, the dozens

528
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: of stories we did on war crimes over that period,

529
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: led by Mark Willison, someone at the ABC should be

530
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: sitting down and checking the homework on all of them

531
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: and saying, look, are there just so we know, are

532
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: there any other gunshots that you've added? Have you misquoted

533
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: anyone here?

534
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: Like?

535
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: Is this story a problem? Can you show me the

536
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: original interview before you cut this together? Because we're now

537
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: under serious pressure, and ultimately, Joe, we are talking about

538
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: I think the most serious thing you can accuse someone of.

539
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: We're talking about are charged with defending the country and

540
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: doing the right thing. Yeah, doing the worst possible thing

541
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: in that role.

542
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: Correct at a time when we have a concerning shortage

543
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: of people joining the military, and we have an issue

544
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: with recruits, and we keep being warned we have to

545
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: get this number of soldiers by this year otherwise we

546
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: won't be ready for war. And yet we've heard in.

547
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 4: The last two weeks that.

548
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: Two thousand veterans have died by suicide between nineteen eighty

549
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: five and two thousand and one. We've heard nine officials

550
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: or officers are going to be stripped of their medals

551
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: coming home, and we've heard this ongoing campaign in the

552
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: media by a range of journalists that are accusing our

553
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: soldiers of war crimes.

554
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 4: Now, who in their right mind would join the military

555
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 4: off the.

556
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: Back of that's right? And again, this is a problem

557
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: that is real enough without having to add people who

558
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: have actually served their country with incredible honor, who have

559
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: been highly decorated, who have an impeccable service record, in

560
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: impeccable pedigree, and tarring them with the same brush. It's

561
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: not like we need more war criminals than we've already got. Absolutely,

562
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: and again, we don't want to sort of get an

563
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: a journal bashing exercise and ABC bashing exercise, but for

564
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: a media organization that actually sort of holds itself at

565
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: a higher level, that has programs both internally and externally,

566
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: like its own fact check unit and media Watch, which

567
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: facts checks other organizations and their claims and judges them.

568
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: For them to have got something so spectacularly wrong, you

569
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: kind of think, well, God help the rest of us, said,

570
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: God help where we are. James Willis from the Daily

571
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: Telegraph FORMU Live to GB Thank you so much for

572
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: joining us on the real story.

573
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 4: Great to see je I, thank you, And.

574
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: Now for question time. This week we might change the

575
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: title to Conspiracy Time, because there's a few people questioning

576
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: whether the second assassination attempt on Donald Trump was in

577
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: fact a set up in order to, as I said,

578
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: boost his ratings, because every time he gets assassinated, it

579
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: would seem I mean, we've got a control group already.

580
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: So the majority of times I was assassinated, but every

581
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: time as someone tries to come after the guy, either

582
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: in a courtroom or in the open air with a gun,

583
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: his popularity goes up. This is why throughout generations centuries,

584
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: people been reluctant to make martyrs of their enemies, because

585
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: it means people rally around them. They either feel sorry

586
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: for them, or they think they're valiant, or whatever it

587
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: may be. So the background to this, of course, is

588
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: that a lot of people thought that the first assassination

589
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: attempt was a setup, was mocked up in order to

590
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: boost Donald Trump's popularity, and it certainly boosts his popularity,

591
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: But it wasn't a setup. I don't thin anyone is

592
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: seriously considering that. Now all the evidence is there, the

593
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: bloke who did it is stone cold dead. So either

594
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: he was very very committed to the conspiracy and very

595
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: very committed to the Trump campaign, or it just actually happened.

596
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: And again, in this second case, the bloke has been caught.

597
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: So if he's in on this conspiracy, this guy is

598
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: the most committed political operative ever known to humankind, and

599
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: he's going to have to keep storm about it for

600
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: a very, very long time. He says. You know what, actually, guys,

601
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: I was never going to do it. It's cool. The other

602
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: thing is, of course, if it really was a setup,

603
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you have led a few shots off? Because

604
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: from what I can gather, I'm not sure if this

605
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: guy actually even I think the shots that actually heard

606
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: was the Secret Service spotting this guy with a rifle

607
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: poking through the fence of the golf course and then

608
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: shooting at him and then off he runs. So again,

609
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: if you want to make Donald Trump look like a hero,

610
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: you've got to do a bit better than that. You know,

611
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: think of the picks you got to have, the you know,

612
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: the bandage on the ear, the blood, you know, the freedom, fate, fate, fate, fatee.

613
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: So again, if it was a bit of heavily crafted

614
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 2: stage management by the Trump campaign, I'd say the production

615
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: values were a little light on Anyway, that's all we

616
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: have time for this week. Thank you so much for

617
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: joining us. Has been absolute pleasure. As always, if you

618
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: too had a little bit of pleasure, please just leave

619
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: a review or hit like or give us a five

620
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: star rating. If you didn't like it, no one's gonna

621
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: know if you just hit five stars are of course,

622
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: if you want to get in contact with us, ask

623
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: us any question, who want us to tackle any issues,

624
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: just go through the real story at Nova Podcasts dot

625
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: com dot au. You can slide into my dms on

626
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: the Gram. It's at Joe Underscore Hildebrand. You can of

627
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: course read any of my columns every Monday and Saturday

628
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: in the Daily Telegraph and various news corp mastheads around

629
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: the country or quality mast heads around the country in fact,

630
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: and I'll see you next week