1 00:00:03,770 --> 00:00:06,360 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,010 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. It's a great time to be looking for a 3 00:00:09,010 --> 00:00:12,629 Sean Aylmer: job, with unemployment at its lowest level in decades. But 4 00:00:12,630 --> 00:00:14,700 Sean Aylmer: on the flip side, if you are running a business, 5 00:00:14,930 --> 00:00:18,660 Sean Aylmer: you are grappling with huge competition for workers, COVID isolation 6 00:00:18,670 --> 00:00:22,970 Sean Aylmer: requirements, and a lack of foreign workers. So what's the 7 00:00:22,970 --> 00:00:26,870 Sean Aylmer: solution to easing the pressure on businesses? Paul Nicolaou is 8 00:00:26,870 --> 00:00:30,180 Sean Aylmer: the Executive Director of Business Sydney. Paul, welcome to Fear 9 00:00:30,180 --> 00:00:30,730 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 10 00:00:31,260 --> 00:00:33,849 Paul Nicolaou: Good morning, Sean and well done to you and your 11 00:00:33,850 --> 00:00:37,620 Paul Nicolaou: team on a great podcast. I love it, and I know 12 00:00:37,710 --> 00:00:39,640 Paul Nicolaou: many of my friends and colleagues listen to it all 13 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:40,050 Paul Nicolaou: the time. 14 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:43,489 Sean Aylmer: Thank you, Paul. Thank you. You might be the Executive Director 15 00:00:43,490 --> 00:00:45,680 Sean Aylmer: of Business Sydney, but this is really a challenge for 16 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,020 Sean Aylmer: businesses right across the country, isn't it? 17 00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:52,100 Paul Nicolaou: That's correct, Sean, right across the country, businesses, whether it's 18 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:56,330 Paul Nicolaou: in hospitality, tourism, retail, health, they're all struggling to find 19 00:00:56,330 --> 00:00:59,760 Paul Nicolaou: staff. Since the pandemic, the borders were closed and we've 20 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,819 Paul Nicolaou: had no overseas students coming in. We've had no backpackers 21 00:01:03,820 --> 00:01:06,840 Paul Nicolaou: coming in, and there isn't enough workers to do all 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,660 Paul Nicolaou: the jobs that are required across the country. 23 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:12,700 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's dive into it a little bit and take hospitality perhaps 24 00:01:12,700 --> 00:01:16,330 Sean Aylmer: as a guide. How hard is it for the hospitality sector to 25 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:17,650 Sean Aylmer: find workers at the moment? 26 00:01:18,209 --> 00:01:21,200 Paul Nicolaou: Well, look, it's very difficult. Lots of pubs, clubs and 27 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,920 Paul Nicolaou: restaurants are all looking for staff. You can go to 28 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,039 Paul Nicolaou: many of these establishments at any time and you'll find 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,649 Paul Nicolaou: that they've got restricted hours and restricted facilities because they 30 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,510 Paul Nicolaou: just haven't got it. I mean, 50% of the hotels 31 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,959 Paul Nicolaou: in the city alone are only operating at a 50% 32 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,230 Paul Nicolaou: rate because they just can't get the staff, and they 33 00:01:39,230 --> 00:01:41,460 Paul Nicolaou: can't open all the rooms because they haven't got enough 34 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,270 Paul Nicolaou: people to prepare the rooms, clean the rooms. A lot 35 00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:48,070 Paul Nicolaou: of the restaurants are only open on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, 36 00:01:48,210 --> 00:01:50,650 Paul Nicolaou: because they can't find the staff to do the work 37 00:01:50,790 --> 00:01:53,880 Paul Nicolaou: that they need. So they keep their facilities open for 38 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,980 Paul Nicolaou: a short period of time. We've had no backpackers coming 39 00:01:56,980 --> 00:01:59,850 Paul Nicolaou: in. All the backpackers at the moment are overseas in 40 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:05,010 Paul Nicolaou: either Santorini, Mykonos or in Barcelona, because it's their summer. 41 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,360 Paul Nicolaou: At the present moment, they're not going to come to Australia because we're 42 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:08,370 Paul Nicolaou: going into our winter. 43 00:02:08,850 --> 00:02:11,230 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So at the end of the day, this just 44 00:02:11,230 --> 00:02:13,620 Sean Aylmer: drags on the economy substantially, I'd imagine. 45 00:02:13,950 --> 00:02:16,240 Paul Nicolaou: Oh huge. I mean a lot of businesses can't grow. 46 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,680 Paul Nicolaou: They can't even keep their doors open. I was just 47 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,550 Paul Nicolaou: listening recently to a couple of businesses in the trucking 48 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:25,230 Paul Nicolaou: industry. And this company has many trucks. They can't get 49 00:02:25,230 --> 00:02:27,520 Paul Nicolaou: them out on the roads to deliver white goods because 50 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,389 Paul Nicolaou: they can't get drivers. It's a big issue. And if 51 00:02:30,389 --> 00:02:32,400 Paul Nicolaou: we don't deal with it, a lot of businesses will 52 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,120 Paul Nicolaou: suffer and the economy will start to also falter at 53 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:35,850 Paul Nicolaou: the same time. 54 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,070 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how do we deal with it? And this is 55 00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:39,730 Sean Aylmer: where you come in. 56 00:02:40,090 --> 00:02:41,950 Paul Nicolaou: Well, there's three things that we could do, and we've 57 00:02:41,950 --> 00:02:44,950 Paul Nicolaou: been calling on the federal government prior to the election, 58 00:02:44,950 --> 00:02:47,740 Paul Nicolaou: and to the opposition. And hopefully the new government may 59 00:02:47,740 --> 00:02:51,130 Paul Nicolaou: consider this. One way to do this is to reduce 60 00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:54,929 Paul Nicolaou: or remove the threshold for pensioners. At the moment, if 61 00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:57,230 Paul Nicolaou: you're a pensioner and you want to work, you're only 62 00:02:57,230 --> 00:03:02,880 Paul Nicolaou: allowed to earn $ 300 per fortnight above your pension. Which 63 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,389 Paul Nicolaou: means that if you earn more than that, then 50 64 00:03:05,389 --> 00:03:08,470 Paul Nicolaou: cents in every dollar you receive, you'll lose in your 65 00:03:08,470 --> 00:03:12,590 Paul Nicolaou: pension. That's a disincentive. There are two million pensioners out there 66 00:03:12,780 --> 00:03:14,970 Paul Nicolaou: of which, let's say, half of them want to work 67 00:03:14,970 --> 00:03:16,960 Paul Nicolaou: and earn a little bit more money so they can go on 68 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,700 Paul Nicolaou: a trip, they can buy presents for their loved ones. 69 00:03:20,230 --> 00:03:23,040 Paul Nicolaou: They're keen. And a lot of them, if they're available, 70 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,610 Paul Nicolaou: would be great people to work as baristas, as mentors, 71 00:03:26,810 --> 00:03:30,180 Paul Nicolaou: to help in cleaning apartments or cleaning rooms for hotels, 72 00:03:30,340 --> 00:03:33,160 Paul Nicolaou: or to be the waiter all to serve people that 73 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,010 Paul Nicolaou: need servicing in that respect. 74 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,490 Sean Aylmer: Have you had much success in terms of getting a 75 00:03:38,490 --> 00:03:41,200 Sean Aylmer: response out of the former government or this government while 76 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,940 Sean Aylmer: they're in opposition? Where's it up to? 77 00:03:43,260 --> 00:03:46,640 Paul Nicolaou: Well, it's been considered, but no one's willing to make 78 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,290 Paul Nicolaou: the call and we are hoping that the new government 79 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,460 Paul Nicolaou: will see that. I've already spoken to the shadow treasurer 80 00:03:52,460 --> 00:03:54,670 Paul Nicolaou: at the time, Jim Chalmers, and also spoke to the 81 00:03:54,670 --> 00:03:57,540 Paul Nicolaou: treasurer at the time, Josh Frydenberg. Both all said it's 82 00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:00,440 Paul Nicolaou: a great idea, but found it very difficult to implement. 83 00:04:01,390 --> 00:04:03,300 Paul Nicolaou: I just think it's a no brainer. I think it can be done 84 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:05,610 Paul Nicolaou: with the stroke of a pen and we can see 85 00:04:05,610 --> 00:04:07,940 Paul Nicolaou: a lot more people come back into the workforce and 86 00:04:07,940 --> 00:04:09,840 Paul Nicolaou: help deal with these staff shortages. 87 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:13,970 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Has it been done overseas? What percentage of Australia's 88 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,330 Sean Aylmer: older Australians work, vis- a- vis other economies? 89 00:04:18,870 --> 00:04:22,370 Paul Nicolaou: Well, New Zealand, for example, don't have this restriction in 90 00:04:22,370 --> 00:04:25,010 Paul Nicolaou: play. If you're a pension in New Zealand, you can earn 91 00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:26,839 Paul Nicolaou: the pension and you can work as many hours as you 92 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,120 Paul Nicolaou: want. It's important for pensioners too, because from a mental 93 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,140 Paul Nicolaou: health perspective, they would prefer to be working and doing 94 00:04:34,210 --> 00:04:37,250 Paul Nicolaou: active things rather than being stuck at home or being 95 00:04:37,250 --> 00:04:39,500 Paul Nicolaou: at a club and putting money into the poke machine. 96 00:04:39,690 --> 00:04:42,690 Paul Nicolaou: We've got to look at incentivizing the community, and one 97 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:46,880 Paul Nicolaou: way of incentivizing the pensioners and the community is by allowing 98 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,300 Paul Nicolaou: them to work as many hours as they want and 99 00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:50,710 Paul Nicolaou: earn as much money as they want. 100 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,239 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I'm just trying to get my head around this. 101 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,979 Sean Aylmer: I understand that you'd need a cap, right? So you 102 00:04:54,980 --> 00:04:59,690 Sean Aylmer: don't want someone earning $ 500,000 getting the pension. But surely 103 00:04:59,690 --> 00:05:03,730 Sean Aylmer: someone could earn $ 50,000 and still get the pension, assuming 104 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,370 Sean Aylmer: they are over a certain age and they're choosing to 105 00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:10,110 Sean Aylmer: do that, to contribute back to the labor force. 106 00:05:10,490 --> 00:05:13,180 Paul Nicolaou: Oh totally. They're not going to be earning that amount 107 00:05:13,180 --> 00:05:13,450 Paul Nicolaou: of money. 108 00:05:13,450 --> 00:05:13,940 Sean Aylmer: No, no. 109 00:05:14,210 --> 00:05:16,800 Paul Nicolaou: They're going to be earning small amounts of money, but enough money 110 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,240 Paul Nicolaou: for them to buy extra, present, go to a club, 111 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,610 Paul Nicolaou: to a restaurant or even go overseas for a trip. 112 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:25,770 Paul Nicolaou: If you're on a pension, you haven't got much money. You probably 113 00:05:25,770 --> 00:05:28,080 Paul Nicolaou: might have an asset being a home, but you might 114 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,549 Paul Nicolaou: not have cash in the bank. So therefore, anything that 115 00:05:31,550 --> 00:05:34,800 Paul Nicolaou: we can incentivize them would be great for themselves, both 116 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,360 Paul Nicolaou: from a mental perspective and from a financial perspective. Then 117 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,980 Paul Nicolaou: from a global perspective, it would mean that there's a 118 00:05:41,140 --> 00:05:43,770 Paul Nicolaou: extra pool of workers out there that could go out 119 00:05:43,770 --> 00:05:45,239 Paul Nicolaou: and fill the jobs that are needed. 120 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,930 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what sectors do you think they'd be best in? 121 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,150 Paul Nicolaou: Oh look, hospitality, tourism, retail. The three sectors have suffered 122 00:05:52,150 --> 00:05:55,760 Paul Nicolaou: badly as a result of COVID and the lockdowns. Anything 123 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,080 Paul Nicolaou: we can do to assist those sectors would be greatly 124 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,140 Paul Nicolaou: appreciated. But as I said to you before, there's the 125 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:02,990 Paul Nicolaou: trucking industry. There'd be a lot of people who can still 126 00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:05,690 Paul Nicolaou: drive a vehicle. So we are not talking about onerous 127 00:06:05,750 --> 00:06:09,390 Paul Nicolaou: tasks like digging holes or doing things that need a 128 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:12,410 Paul Nicolaou: lot of physical work. A lot of work could be 129 00:06:12,410 --> 00:06:15,000 Paul Nicolaou: clerical work. A lot of pensioners would love to be 130 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,770 Paul Nicolaou: mentors for our future business leaders. Anything we can do 131 00:06:17,770 --> 00:06:20,240 Paul Nicolaou: to incentivize them would be great for the community and 132 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:21,250 Paul Nicolaou: great for themselves. 133 00:06:21,550 --> 00:06:23,550 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Paul. We'll be back in a minute. 134 00:06:29,770 --> 00:06:33,220 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Paul Nicolaou, Executive Director of Business 135 00:06:33,220 --> 00:06:37,710 Sean Aylmer: Sydney. So looking beyond pensioners in terms of boosting the 136 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:41,120 Sean Aylmer: workforce, you've also suggested tax offsets for full- time workers 137 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,390 Sean Aylmer: who take on a second part- time job. How would 138 00:06:43,390 --> 00:06:43,960 Sean Aylmer: that work? 139 00:06:44,370 --> 00:06:46,609 Paul Nicolaou: Well, there are a lot of people out there who do want 140 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:48,419 Paul Nicolaou: to work on the weekends. If they work during the 141 00:06:48,420 --> 00:06:51,020 Paul Nicolaou: week, they want to work on a Saturday, Sunday. But 142 00:06:51,020 --> 00:06:53,930 Paul Nicolaou: there's no incentive to because any extra hours of work 143 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:56,279 Paul Nicolaou: that they do, they've got to pay more tax. So we 144 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,010 Paul Nicolaou: are calling on the federal government and the federal opposition 145 00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:02,029 Paul Nicolaou: to see this from a bipartisan approach, that we should 146 00:07:02,029 --> 00:07:04,979 Paul Nicolaou: allow those doing a second job to pay less in 147 00:07:04,980 --> 00:07:08,140 Paul Nicolaou: tax, maybe half in tax, so there's that extra incentive. 148 00:07:08,410 --> 00:07:10,930 Paul Nicolaou: The more we can incentivize the community, the better off 149 00:07:10,930 --> 00:07:11,390 Paul Nicolaou: we are. 150 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,970 Sean Aylmer: Another idea I just had, and I have no idea 151 00:07:13,970 --> 00:07:17,340 Sean Aylmer: whether this will carry water at all, but if you are a full- 152 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:20,590 Sean Aylmer: time worker over the age of 65 or 67, do 153 00:07:20,590 --> 00:07:24,710 Sean Aylmer: you get any tax benefit for working beyond retirement age? 154 00:07:25,350 --> 00:07:26,870 Paul Nicolaou: I'm not sure on that, but that's not a bad 155 00:07:26,870 --> 00:07:29,800 Paul Nicolaou: one to follow up. I think it's worth pursuing. Anything we 156 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,900 Paul Nicolaou: can do to encourage people, incentivize people. I think the 157 00:07:33,900 --> 00:07:35,960 Paul Nicolaou: process of a carrot and stick might be the way 158 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,750 Paul Nicolaou: to go if we want to get more people back 159 00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:40,780 Paul Nicolaou: into the workplace. Because at the moment there's no incentive to 160 00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:43,489 Paul Nicolaou: do so. You work, and I think everyone is willing 161 00:07:43,490 --> 00:07:46,300 Paul Nicolaou: to work and pay their taxes, the appropriate taxes, but 162 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,720 Paul Nicolaou: we need to get people back into the economy because 163 00:07:48,730 --> 00:07:52,410 Paul Nicolaou: we are struggling to find and fill those jobs. Another 164 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:54,820 Paul Nicolaou: thing that we could do, Sean, and this might be 165 00:07:54,820 --> 00:07:59,010 Paul Nicolaou: controversial, but remove the mandating of vaccines. At the moment, 166 00:07:59,220 --> 00:08:01,410 Paul Nicolaou: people who are not vaccinated can work and there are 167 00:08:01,410 --> 00:08:04,930 Paul Nicolaou: massive shortages in our schools and in our hospitals. And 168 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,810 Paul Nicolaou: maybe what we need to do is now allow it 169 00:08:06,810 --> 00:08:10,490 Paul Nicolaou: up to the person themselves and also the industry to 170 00:08:10,660 --> 00:08:14,370 Paul Nicolaou: work out what is safe for prospective workplaces, because there's 171 00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:16,530 Paul Nicolaou: still a pool of people out there who haven't been 172 00:08:16,530 --> 00:08:19,420 Paul Nicolaou: vaccinated, who aren't working because they can't work due to 173 00:08:19,420 --> 00:08:20,750 Paul Nicolaou: vaccine mandating. 174 00:08:21,290 --> 00:08:23,930 Sean Aylmer: Do you think that eventually these sorts of things will have to 175 00:08:23,930 --> 00:08:26,740 Sean Aylmer: be adopted simply because we just don't have the workforce? 176 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,840 Sean Aylmer: And we won't for the next five years, unless we 177 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,050 Sean Aylmer: get massive migration and even then, I don't think we're going to have 178 00:08:31,370 --> 00:08:31,910 Sean Aylmer: the workforce. 179 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,170 Paul Nicolaou: Well, that's exactly right. We're not going to get massive migration. 180 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:37,990 Paul Nicolaou: Both parties said that they weren't going to have massive 181 00:08:38,170 --> 00:08:40,490 Paul Nicolaou: amounts of migrants coming in. And there are a lot of countries 182 00:08:40,490 --> 00:08:43,679 Paul Nicolaou: who are in the same boat as we are. The 183 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,340 Paul Nicolaou: fact is we, you look at overseas students. We're not 184 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:49,030 Paul Nicolaou: going to get a whole group of overseas students until 185 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:53,140 Paul Nicolaou: next year because why? They've all been going to United 186 00:08:53,140 --> 00:08:57,840 Paul Nicolaou: States, the UK and in America, because their universities are 187 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,290 Paul Nicolaou: open here. We hadn't opened up our universities until recently. 188 00:09:01,290 --> 00:09:03,740 Paul Nicolaou: So that cohort of people won't be coming in until 189 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,970 Paul Nicolaou: the end of the year. Same applies with our backpackers. 190 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:10,770 Paul Nicolaou: We're not going to get backpackers coming into Australia until the end of 191 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:12,660 Paul Nicolaou: the year. So we are going to be desperate for 192 00:09:12,660 --> 00:09:16,439 Paul Nicolaou: staff, and anything we can do now will help solve 193 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,850 Paul Nicolaou: this issue going into the end of the year, into 194 00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:20,130 Paul Nicolaou: the next financial year. 195 00:09:20,620 --> 00:09:23,400 Sean Aylmer: Wouldn't it be nice, Paul, to eventually get back to normal? 196 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,870 Paul Nicolaou: Yeah. Looking forward to it. I think everyone is looking 197 00:09:25,870 --> 00:09:28,240 Paul Nicolaou: forward to it. But we've got to look at our 198 00:09:28,270 --> 00:09:31,380 Paul Nicolaou: history and see how we've managed this whole crisis and 199 00:09:31,380 --> 00:09:34,240 Paul Nicolaou: see how we can ensure that this doesn't happen again. 200 00:09:34,330 --> 00:09:36,439 Paul Nicolaou: It was all a learning curve for everyone and there 201 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,320 Paul Nicolaou: wasn't any rule books or how- to kits. I think 202 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,170 Paul Nicolaou: the government needs to have an inquiry as to how this 203 00:09:42,170 --> 00:09:46,000 Paul Nicolaou: whole thing was managed, not to apportion blame, but to 204 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,150 Paul Nicolaou: work out what we can do to ensure that the 205 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:51,670 Paul Nicolaou: next time a pandemic of this stature comes into play. 206 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,760 Paul Nicolaou: We've got the processes and the way to deal with 207 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,790 Paul Nicolaou: it, rather than just haphazardly doing what we think is 208 00:09:57,790 --> 00:09:59,050 Paul Nicolaou: right and what we think is wrong. 209 00:09:59,530 --> 00:10:01,250 Sean Aylmer: Paul, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 210 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:02,131 Paul Nicolaou: Thank you, Sean. 211 00:10:02,131 --> 00:10:06,460 Sean Aylmer: Paul Nicolaou, Executive Director of Business Sydney and a thoroughly 212 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,000 Sean Aylmer: good man. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. 213 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 214 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,740 Sean Aylmer: and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. 215 00:10:15,270 --> 00:10:15,910 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.