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Speaker 1: Approach production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shann. It's been my privilege over the years to

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Speaker 2: tell stories that reflect the amazing durability of human beings.

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Speaker 2: What people can survive when they have no choice never

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Speaker 2: ceases to amaze me, and also how they live with

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Speaker 2: the effects those moments have on them for the rest

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Speaker 2: of their lives. My guest today is in that cohort.

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Speaker 2: It was May fifth, nineteen ninety four and mister McManus

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Speaker 2: was carrying out an arrest warrant on Grosser. Derek McManus

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Speaker 2: was a South Australian police officer, a member of the

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Speaker 2: elite Special Tasks and Rescue Group, the Star Group.

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Speaker 1: It's the police squad so secretive few know about it.

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Speaker 2: He was a specialist sniper diver trained by the military

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Speaker 2: elite Special Air Services Regiment the SAS. In counter terrorist

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Speaker 2: TAC May five, nineteen ninety four, Derek and his colleagues

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Speaker 2: were carrying out an arrest warrant on a crook named

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Speaker 2: Tony Grosser, who failed to attend court.

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Speaker 1: As he approached Ross's house, Derek was.

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Speaker 2: Shot fourteen times in less than five seconds with a

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Speaker 2: high powered semi automatic rifle. StarForce officers used to rescue

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Speaker 2: helicopters down to the call of a wounded police officer.

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Speaker 1: Gunman's hold up in a farmhouse.

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Speaker 2: Two kilometers office stirred by way and is keeping police

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Speaker 2: at bay. Amazingly, two and a half years later, he

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Speaker 2: returned to full duties. His story literally epitomizes durability. Since retiring,

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Speaker 2: Derek has become an international speaker and trainer. He provides

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Speaker 2: insights and the tools for people to go beyond brasilience

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Speaker 2: to durability and create sustained optimum performance. And it's my

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Speaker 2: pleasure to welcome you to the real crime Studio, Derek get.

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Speaker 1: Eight, Adam, absolute pleasure to be here with you.

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Speaker 2: I lot to start there. We can't go past that

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Speaker 2: moment May five, nineteen ninety four. You've told the story

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Speaker 2: a couple of times over the years, but I don't

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Speaker 2: think anybody who's hasn't been in that situation understands how

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Speaker 2: time stands still, what happens in those moments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And there are a couple of moments in

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Speaker 1: experience where time literally stood still. There was the five

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Speaker 1: seconds where the bullets were hitting me, seemed to take

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Speaker 1: about thirty seconds to a minute, and it was essentially

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Speaker 1: that pace of time. But for me, it's a surreal experience.

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Speaker 1: I had prepared myself physically, mentally, and emotionally, and that's

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Speaker 1: one of the most important parts. The emotionally having some

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Speaker 1: anticipation I'm going into Star Groups special Task and Rescue,

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Speaker 1: sniper diver trained by the Essays and counter terrorism. There

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Speaker 1: was a reality for me that I may be shot

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Speaker 1: and injured, I may be shot and killed. Five years

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Speaker 1: prior to the shooting, I had a conversation with my

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Speaker 1: wife and I said, going in here and maybe shot

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Speaker 1: and ninjured, maybe shot and killed. If I die, what

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Speaker 1: will your life look like? Because I wanted her to

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Speaker 1: be on the same page as me, facing this reality

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Speaker 1: of if it does happen, what's it going to feel

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Speaker 1: like for her? So we had that discussion, and I

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Speaker 1: love going into what that discussion was and how it

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Speaker 1: handed out and what it meant. But we had that discussion.

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Speaker 1: I then prepared myself and said, if I get shot

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Speaker 1: and I don't die, what's going to happen in my

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Speaker 1: mind and what's going to happen in my body? And

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Speaker 1: I knew that they would be diametrically opposed. My mind

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Speaker 1: would want to take over my body and my body

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Speaker 1: would want to just collapse. And I said, what's that

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Speaker 1: opposition going to be? And how do I actually manage

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Speaker 1: it so I can get the best result that I want.

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Speaker 1: I had to reflect on other experiences that I've had. Now,

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Speaker 1: most people will tell you they've reflected on the moments

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Speaker 1: that were really good for them, that they've done really well.

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Speaker 1: I reflected on the times and I have stuffed up

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Speaker 1: as well. Why did I stuff up? How did I

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Speaker 1: stuff up? How can I improve upon that? But then,

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Speaker 1: what have I done well? How can I take that?

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen eighty seven, which is seven years prior

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Speaker 1: to the shooting, I was in another incident where somebody

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Speaker 1: tried to shoot us. We actually got into a wrestling match.

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Speaker 1: Because it was so close quarters, we didn't get our

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Speaker 1: gun down. We got into a wrestling match and the

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Speaker 1: gun wouldn't be fired because it had to be cocked first.

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Speaker 1: It was broken, so it had to be cocked. As

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Speaker 1: we were wrestling, He's called out to his girlfriend, cocked

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Speaker 1: the gun. She's cocked the gun, and as she's cocked

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Speaker 1: the gun, I put my thumb on the hammer of

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Speaker 1: the gun to hold the hammer back so it couldn't

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Speaker 1: be fired. Now, as I was preparing to go into

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Speaker 1: this star group, I've gone, if I do get shot,

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Speaker 1: how was I able to stay calm and rational enough

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Speaker 1: to think about that at the time and do that

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Speaker 1: without any emotion and come out of that and be

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Speaker 1: able to be lighthearted joking while still being extremely serious

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Speaker 1: about the circumstances. And how can I take that forward?

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Speaker 1: So that's what I reflect on try to going into

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Speaker 1: the shooting. And at the time the shooting happened, I think.

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Speaker 2: It was Mike Tyson who said that everyone's got a

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Speaker 2: plan until they get punched in the face. Correct, what's

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Speaker 2: the difference between the planning and the reality in that moment?

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Speaker 1: So for me, in my mind, I'd already been punched

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Speaker 1: in the face. I went into it with visualization, and

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Speaker 1: we talked a lot about visualization for business these days.

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Speaker 1: I went into it for this circumstance. So when I

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Speaker 1: said what will my mind be doing? What will my

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Speaker 1: body doing? I went into visualization mode and I put

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Speaker 1: myself in that situation, and I felt it emotionally. If

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Speaker 1: I'm being overwhelmed, if my body's doing this absolute perfection

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Speaker 1: is going to look like this. Absolute chaos is going

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Speaker 1: to look like this. And I lived that scenario, and

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Speaker 1: I said, if it turns out this way, how do

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Speaker 1: I influence it to get it back towards this? And

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Speaker 1: because I'd gone through this visualization with such reality, and

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Speaker 1: I'd never been trained to do this, this is something

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Speaker 1: I just did intuitively. But it did happen. There was

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Speaker 1: a moment immediately after the shooting where I'd been shot.

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Speaker 1: I fell to the ground, I rolled away, I got

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Speaker 1: up despite massive injuries. I leant against the wall and

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Speaker 1: something else happened, and very happy to go into this

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Speaker 1: story in greater detail, but my forearm had been broken

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Speaker 1: in two places, so when I leant against the wall,

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Speaker 1: my hand has literally folded back along my forearm. And

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Speaker 1: I was so well relaxed, so prepared for this, that

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Speaker 1: I looked at it and I'm gone, damn, this is

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Speaker 1: not a good day, and then got back on with

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Speaker 1: doing what I needed to do. So virtually in my

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Speaker 1: mind I had been punched in the face. It still

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Speaker 1: came as a shock when it did happen, but I

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Speaker 1: had the plan and I was able to implement it.

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Speaker 1: Now Mike Tyson, everybody's got a plan toil they get

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Speaker 1: punched in the face. He'd been punched in the face

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Speaker 1: so often he knew exactly what to do, so when

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Speaker 1: he got punched in the face, he came back at him.

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Speaker 1: And the classic example he generally talks about is the

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Speaker 1: black belt karate. You know, they've done all the scenario punching,

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Speaker 1: and they've done the shadow boxing, they've done the virtual

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Speaker 1: fights and all that sort of stuff. But in reality

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Speaker 1: on the street, when somebody punches them in the face

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Speaker 1: and they're not expecting it, a lot of them just go,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, what do I do now? Because it

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Speaker 1: comes unexpected. This was not unexpected for me.

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Speaker 2: It's like your average uniform member who might go there

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Speaker 2: through their whole career and not pull out their firearm.

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Speaker 2: Correct they go to the range for a little while

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Speaker 2: each year, do their regulation number of shots, but too

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Speaker 2: often when they get in the conflict situation and they've

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Speaker 2: got to draw their weapon, the first six shots or

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Speaker 2: most of the shots go wide anyway. So most police

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Speaker 2: officers are not prepared for this scenario. And we saw

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Speaker 2: this when we talked about your story. It immediately draws

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Speaker 2: comparisons with Desi Freeman in Porpunka here in Victoria and

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Speaker 2: how those members went into that scenario. The coroner will

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Speaker 2: have his say and probably the Supreme Court as well

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Speaker 2: about the decisions.

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Speaker 1: That were made.

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Speaker 2: But you've been on the ground exactly in that scenario

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Speaker 2: approaching somebody. Grossa was a delusional person, had a persecution complex.

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Speaker 2: He was deeply paranoid against authority, and you sort of

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Speaker 2: knew that it was going to be a high risk situation.

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Speaker 1: Describe what happened. So we did know it was going

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Speaker 1: to be a high risk situation. This is the third

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Speaker 1: job that I'd been involved with him because when the

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Speaker 1: cib were investigating him five years prior to this, and

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Speaker 1: this is obviously thirty five years ago, he actually said

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Speaker 1: any copy who comes near my place is going to

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Speaker 1: get shot. So we had a hint that he could

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Speaker 1: be violent, but we had two jobs with him where

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Speaker 1: he did absolutely nothing. But that didn't mean we were complacent,

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Speaker 1: and that's why our Star group to go and arrest

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Speaker 1: him on this occasion because he'd failed to appear in court.

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Speaker 1: So we went to the front door of the house

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Speaker 1: wearing full police blue uniform and flatfests. We knocked on

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Speaker 1: the door. There is a YouTube video of this, so

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Speaker 1: you can get to it via my website or just

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Speaker 1: go to my YouTube channel. You can see how I

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Speaker 1: was approaching the house. You can see how's knocking on

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Speaker 1: the door and calling out to him. Mister grossol, we

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you. There's no answer. However, we've

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Speaker 1: got a sniper sitting in the bush for the last

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes. We know he's inside. We know he to

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Speaker 1: be answering the door. We knocked again, We call again, again,

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Speaker 1: no answer. We always go in with a very strict,

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Speaker 1: very disciplined and thought through plan for what we're going

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Speaker 1: to do, and everybody is briefed on exactly what their

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Speaker 1: requirements are, but we always have them in the side

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Speaker 1: of our mind. If there is a better opportunity, and

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Speaker 1: we see it on the moment, then we can take it.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows how we're each other train. We can roll

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Speaker 1: into it. Immediately. As we were knocking on the door,

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Speaker 1: I looked down the side of the house and five

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Speaker 1: steps away from where I am there's a glass sliding door.

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Speaker 1: Now this is going to present us with a better opportunity,

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Speaker 1: more efficient, more effective. I went down the side to

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Speaker 1: have a look at this door. I was going to

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Speaker 1: make an assessment. Come back five steps, tell the sergeant, hey,

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Speaker 1: there's an opportunity over here. As I got within two

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Speaker 1: feet of that door, he happened to be standing in

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Speaker 1: an opportune place where he was waiting for us to

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Speaker 1: come through his front door. And if we'd come through

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Speaker 1: his front door, he was way him to shoot whoever

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Speaker 1: was first, second, third in. However, from that position he

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Speaker 1: could also see me as I approached this side door,

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Speaker 1: and he just turned and started to fire, and he

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Speaker 1: fired eighteen times and hit me fourteen times. Not all

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Speaker 1: bullets and not all penetrated into my body, but they

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Speaker 1: were good, solid hits. One was a piece of shrapnel

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Speaker 1: in my right wrist and that severed an archery, so

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Speaker 1: I count that as a significant hit. Another one broke

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Speaker 1: my forearm in two places, severed an archery in there,

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Speaker 1: obviously a significant hit. Two bullets into my stomach lost

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Speaker 1: forty five centimeters of bow. Two in my left thigh,

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Speaker 1: missed the femeral artery by the width of a piece

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Speaker 1: of paper. One went through my right achilles tendon and

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Speaker 1: severed eighty percent of the thickness, and so I got

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Speaker 1: and stood with twenty percent of my achilles tendon still

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Speaker 1: holding together. And I still only have twenty percent of

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Speaker 1: my achilles tendon now. And the other ones either hit

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Speaker 1: the ceramic plate and didn't penetrate, hit a piece of

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Speaker 1: equipment on my thigh, or they were either bullets or

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Speaker 1: shrapnel that just cut through the skin enough to need stitching.

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Speaker 1: But it was hit fourteen times. And then I was

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Speaker 1: dealing with two sevadar trees, massive life threatening injuries to

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Speaker 1: other parts of my body, and I fired back. I

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Speaker 1: managed to roll away, I managed to get to my

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Speaker 1: feet despite those injuries. Stagger around the corner, have that

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Speaker 1: moment of reflection and lightheartedness which breaks at tension and

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Speaker 1: allows us to be more created. Then I went around

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Speaker 1: the corner, I collapsed to the ground again because I

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Speaker 1: didn't have the energy or the strength to be able

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Speaker 1: to hold myself up. And I was lying on my

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Speaker 1: back for the next three hours waiting for the boys

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Speaker 1: to come and get me. And for the three hours

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Speaker 1: I was lying on the ground, I had every confidence

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Speaker 1: they would be there as soon as they safely could,

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Speaker 1: and I was fully conscious for that three hours.

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Speaker 2: And the siege raged around you Sapaul admitted to firing

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Speaker 2: seventeen hundred and sixty rounds in that exchange.

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Speaker 1: YEP, amazing, and he fired similar He fired about two

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Speaker 1: thousand rounds as well. So for the entire three hours

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Speaker 1: that I was on the ground, he was just firing,

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Speaker 1: reloading a thirty round magazine, and firing again. For the

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Speaker 1: entire three hours I was lying on the ground, and ironically,

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Speaker 1: when he was shooting, I felt comfortable because when he

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Speaker 1: was shooting, I was able to identify where he was

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Speaker 1: in the house by where the sound was coming from.

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Speaker 1: The majority of the time he was in the roof

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Speaker 1: of the house in the attic, and so I was comfortable.

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Speaker 1: From that place, he could not see me or shoot me.

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Speaker 1: So while he was shooting and up there, I was

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Speaker 1: able to relax. When he wasn't shootings, when my mind

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Speaker 1: started racing again, where is he going? Is he coming out?

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Speaker 1: Is he searching for me? Is he hunting me? And

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Speaker 1: I had to use every bit of strength in my

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Speaker 1: mindset to be able to control my panic, control my shock,

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Speaker 1: keep my breathing in control, and slow down my heart

250
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Speaker 1: rate so that I didn't bleed out. Through these two

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Speaker 1: seven archeries all the rest of the injuries.

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Speaker 2: That would be a real possibility. So you had the

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Speaker 2: presence of mind at that moment to realize, if I

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Speaker 2: stay calm here, I'm going to survive.

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Speaker 1: If I panic, I'm dead absolutely, And that came from

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Speaker 1: the visualization beforehand, saying what will my body want to

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Speaker 1: do and what will that impact be, what will my

258
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Speaker 1: mind want to be doing, and what do I know

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Speaker 1: I should be doing? And how do I get from

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Speaker 1: there to here? And you know, it's the classic where

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Speaker 1: am I now? And where do I want to go

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Speaker 1: to and what do I need to do to get there?

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Speaker 1: But that came from the visualization beforehand. So what happened

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Speaker 1: next in this siege? So I was lying on the

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Speaker 1: ground for three hours, and to give you a little

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Speaker 1: bit of an insight into what was happening in my mind,

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Speaker 1: I had every moment of reality saying that with the

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Speaker 1: injuries that I've got, I'm going to have very serious

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Speaker 1: consequences coming forward, and knowing that it could cause death.

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Speaker 1: There's no ways about it. I could die from what

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Speaker 1: I've got here. But when I looked at the worst

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Speaker 1: case scenario if I was to get out of this alive,

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Speaker 1: I started thinking I may spend the rest of my

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Speaker 1: life in a wheelchair, and I had to try and

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Speaker 1: figure out how I'm going to make that interesting. And

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Speaker 1: this is while I'm lying on the ground and he's

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Speaker 1: firing and shooting, and my blood is pulling on the

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Speaker 1: ground next to me, and I'm starting to think, how

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Speaker 1: am I going to make life interesting if I'm going

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Speaker 1: to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair?

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Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, I played basketball, I could

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Speaker 1: maybe play wheelchair basketball. I like to tell people I've

283
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Speaker 1: got a bit of an ego, don't shy away from it.

284
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Speaker 1: And my ego kicked in, and I'm gone, do you

285
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Speaker 1: know something, I'm damn good at basketball. I may be

286
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Speaker 1: able to make the Paralympic team. And the Paralympic team

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Speaker 1: they are traveling the world and I'm not traveling the

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Speaker 1: world at the moment. Actually, there could be a bonus

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Speaker 1: in this. Now. I don't know if you know anybody

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Speaker 1: in the Special Forces. I'm sure you do. If a

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Speaker 1: copper has got an ego, this big, ours is this big?

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Speaker 1: That ego kicked in And while I'm lying on the ground,

293
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Speaker 1: my body's closing down. He's shooting blood pulling on the ground.

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Speaker 1: I start thinking to myself, if I make the Paralympic

295
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Speaker 1: team add something to what they're already doing, we may

296
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Speaker 1: be able to make the Paralympic finals. I may end

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Speaker 1: up with a gold medal. It's a good way of

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Speaker 1: distracting yourself. It's a good way of distracting myself. But

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Speaker 1: I've analyzed what I was doing there and I've now

300
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Speaker 1: put it into a model and it's the first step

301
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Speaker 1: in five drivers for success, and that was creating a

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Speaker 1: sense of optimism. Where I was was not a great place.

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Speaker 2: You talked about preparing your wife for this possible eventuality. Yep,

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Speaker 2: I've got no doubt that news is spreading pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: What's going on there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she doesn't know that your would, I presume, But

307
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Speaker 2: were you thinking about her and your kids?

308
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Speaker 1: I was thinking about my pa. It's a contentious point

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Speaker 1: between my wife and I because I will admit I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about my children and it wasn't a lot

311
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Speaker 1: of thought about her. I've been open about that. But

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Speaker 1: the one thing that I wanted, and I identified this

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Speaker 1: to her five years beforehand, I said, if worst case

314
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Speaker 1: scenario happens, and we discussed the fact I may end

315
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Speaker 1: up in a wheelchair, and I said, even if i

316
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Speaker 1: end up in a wheelchair, so long as I'm able

317
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Speaker 1: to interact with my children, I'll be happy. So this

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Speaker 1: is about accepting responsibility for choice, for behaviors, for consequence,

319
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Speaker 1: but also the future after consequence, right, and that conversation,

320
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Speaker 1: anything better than death is a bonus as long as

321
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Speaker 1: I'm able to interact with my kids. And for the

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Speaker 1: three hours I was lying on the ground, it's the

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Speaker 1: one thing that gave me the drive, the determination, the

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Speaker 1: focus to keep on fighting. I wanted to be there

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Speaker 1: with them for their birthdays, their weddings, their trials, their tribulations,

326
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Speaker 1: just be there to interact with them. And that is

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Speaker 1: definitely what kept me focused and driven to keep fighting.

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Speaker 2: Because lying in the pool of blood broken limbs, it'd

329
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Speaker 2: be tempting to feel sorry for oneself, but that wouldn't

330
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Speaker 2: have helped you.

331
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Speaker 1: Now and again, I go back to those four steps

332
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Speaker 1: of responsibility, and I love talking to corporates about that.

333
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Speaker 1: Except responsibility for my choice, my behaviors, my consequences, both

334
00:17:00,521 --> 00:17:04,481
Speaker 1: good and bad. Going into stargroup, sensational life, all the

335
00:17:04,481 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: boys toy you could ever ask for, but also the

336
00:17:07,041 --> 00:17:08,801
Speaker 1: chance that I may be shot and injured or may

337
00:17:08,801 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 1: be shot and killed. I accepted responsibility for that, and

338
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Speaker 1: I accept responsibility for the future if it does happen.

339
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Speaker 1: Worst case scenario, I may end up in a wheelchair?

340
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Speaker 1: What will that look like? And if we can get

341
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Speaker 1: people to start thinking this way every time they make

342
00:17:23,761 --> 00:17:27,241
Speaker 1: a choice about what behavior is going to take, then

343
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Speaker 1: we can design better outcomes. The challenge we have personally

344
00:17:31,921 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 1: and in business is that people go, oh, listen, I'm

345
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Speaker 1: going to do this. I hope it works out well

346
00:17:37,321 --> 00:17:39,360
Speaker 1: because it's worked out well for other people, so it

347
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,880
Speaker 1: should work out well for me, rather than going to

348
00:17:42,001 --> 00:17:44,961
Speaker 1: know something. We don't have the finance to fund failure,

349
00:17:45,201 --> 00:17:47,641
Speaker 1: we don't have the expertise to be able to do this.

350
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Speaker 1: So taking this opportunity or this chance may actually destroy us.

351
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Speaker 1: We need to say no. And if we can get

352
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Speaker 1: people to just take on those four steps of responsibility,

353
00:17:58,041 --> 00:18:01,681
Speaker 1: it can change the way people perform and also help

354
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Speaker 1: them to take ownership moving forward than going oh, it's

355
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Speaker 1: not me, I didn't do it. I'm not going to

356
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 1: tell anybody. Let's take ownership of it and move forward positively.

357
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Speaker 2: You certainly did. One who wasn't taking responsibility. Was Tony Grosser?

358
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Speaker 2: In fact, later on when he's in jail, Yeah, he

359
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,160
Speaker 2: finds God and he talks about the fact that it

360
00:18:21,241 --> 00:18:24,441
Speaker 2: was a miracle that I wasn't killed, forgetting the fact

361
00:18:24,481 --> 00:18:27,041
Speaker 2: that he was the one that precipitated that situation.

362
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Speaker 1: How was he not killed?

363
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a credit to Sapol that

364
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,640
Speaker 2: he wasn't killed and taken alive what happened.

365
00:18:35,521 --> 00:18:38,080
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. It's a credit to Sapold.

366
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Speaker 1: It's an absolute credit to Star Group because most people

367
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,961
Speaker 1: go your mates must have been so angry with him,

368
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,321
Speaker 1: they would have taken him out in an instant. And

369
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Speaker 1: it is a credit to the professionalism of Star Group,

370
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,681
Speaker 1: and that's how we are taught and driven and managed.

371
00:18:52,721 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 1: But certainly, while I was on the ground, if he

372
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Speaker 1: had presented himself as a target and he was still

373
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Speaker 1: threatening me, it would have been like that and he

374
00:19:02,241 --> 00:19:05,721
Speaker 1: would have been shot, disabled and whatever that might have

375
00:19:05,801 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 1: meant for him. But he would have been disabled so

376
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,001
Speaker 1: they could get into me earlier. But he didn't present

377
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,761
Speaker 1: himself as a target. He hid. He was very, very

378
00:19:13,801 --> 00:19:16,961
Speaker 1: tactical himself. And when I was taken out and the

379
00:19:17,041 --> 00:19:20,321
Speaker 1: siege went on for another thirty eight hours after I

380
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,400
Speaker 1: was taken out longer siege in South Australia. When he

381
00:19:23,481 --> 00:19:27,321
Speaker 1: did present, there was certainly an opportunity that if somebody

382
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: had been vindictive and malicious, they could have injured him

383
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,120
Speaker 1: at that time. But again it goes back to the

384
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 1: professionalism of Sapole and of Star Group that he was

385
00:19:36,521 --> 00:19:40,561
Speaker 1: treated with the greatest respect because we knew that anything

386
00:19:40,561 --> 00:19:44,801
Speaker 1: that we did would endanger any future court proceedings and

387
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,481
Speaker 1: it's just inhumane to be able to do those things.

388
00:19:47,801 --> 00:19:51,481
Speaker 1: We have a responsibility to treat everybody the best way

389
00:19:51,481 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 1: we can to get the right outcome.

390
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 2: Because no matter what he had done, if he was

391
00:19:56,721 --> 00:19:59,121
Speaker 2: shot and killed, that would have been reviewed frame by

392
00:19:59,201 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 2: frame in slow motion in the Supreme Court. And the

393
00:20:02,281 --> 00:20:04,880
Speaker 2: fact that you were wounded wouldn't have prevented people being

394
00:20:04,921 --> 00:20:08,281
Speaker 2: he held accountable on your side.

395
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,761
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. And as you take action like that

396
00:20:09,801 --> 00:20:12,721
Speaker 1: without true justification, it becomes murder. There is no two

397
00:20:12,761 --> 00:20:16,481
Speaker 1: ways about that. That is very omnipresent in our minds

398
00:20:16,521 --> 00:20:21,001
Speaker 1: in everything we do, that everything has to be done legally, morally,

399
00:20:21,481 --> 00:20:25,561
Speaker 1: socially responsibly to make sure that everybody has the best outcome,

400
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,281
Speaker 1: and people are held account by the courts, not by

401
00:20:29,681 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 1: an individual. So what happened in the end, So he

402
00:20:33,521 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 1: stayed in the house for forty one hours or er

403
00:20:36,201 --> 00:20:40,801
Speaker 1: and Sapole, how do I say this succinctly, Sapole essentially

404
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 1: coached him out. He became exhausted. They presented an opportunity

405
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,241
Speaker 1: for him. Well, they actually knocked down half the side

406
00:20:47,241 --> 00:20:50,161
Speaker 1: of the roof so that he was completely exposed, but

407
00:20:50,241 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 1: that still took another three hours. He came out, he

408
00:20:53,721 --> 00:20:58,521
Speaker 1: was arrested, assessed by psychologists, psychiatrists, and as you strived

409
00:20:58,561 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: in the beginning, it was a good deal of paranoia,

410
00:21:01,681 --> 00:21:05,880
Speaker 1: but completely saying otherwise, and he was taken to court.

411
00:21:06,041 --> 00:21:07,681
Speaker 1: It took us two and a half years to get

412
00:21:07,721 --> 00:21:11,281
Speaker 1: him to court for the first trial, and that was

413
00:21:11,321 --> 00:21:14,201
Speaker 1: a trial that lasted about a month long as barrister

414
00:21:14,321 --> 00:21:18,041
Speaker 1: represented him. He was found guilty twenty two years jail,

415
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,081
Speaker 1: eighteen years non parole. He appealed and won the appeal,

416
00:21:22,681 --> 00:21:24,561
Speaker 1: so we went back to court another two and a

417
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,561
Speaker 1: half years later, so we're now talking five years after

418
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,041
Speaker 1: the shooting, and this time he didn't have a barrister.

419
00:21:31,241 --> 00:21:35,241
Speaker 1: He couldn't get representation and he decided to represent himself.

420
00:21:35,721 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 1: I was in the witness box for five days, being

421
00:21:38,761 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 1: questioned and ridiculed and harassed by the person who had

422
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,801
Speaker 1: shot me fourteen times. Absolutely exhausted at the end of it.

423
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 1: The trial lasted three months. At that time it was

424
00:21:48,921 --> 00:21:52,281
Speaker 1: the longest trial ever in South Australia. Twenty three years jail,

425
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,801
Speaker 1: eighteen years non parole. Again, the penalty and conviction was upheld.

426
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: He appealed, appealed, appealed, went all the way to the

427
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 1: High Court. Both penalty and conviction were both upheld and

428
00:22:03,001 --> 00:22:06,001
Speaker 1: he spent twenty two years in jail. This happened thirty

429
00:22:06,001 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 1: one years ago, so for the last nine years he

430
00:22:09,481 --> 00:22:11,161
Speaker 1: has been walking amongst us.

431
00:22:11,801 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 2: Yes, he was released in twenty seventeen, but there was

432
00:22:13,961 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: monitoring after that. But Yes, that experience you describe of

433
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,441
Speaker 2: going to court and the frustrations of that, and it's

434
00:22:21,521 --> 00:22:26,641
Speaker 2: just an endless cycle of appearances and things often contributes

435
00:22:26,681 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 2: to the development of post traumatic stress disorder. Yes, reliving

436
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: it over and over and it's usually not the one event.

437
00:22:34,521 --> 00:22:37,281
Speaker 2: It's the drip drip in the bucket and these sorts

438
00:22:37,321 --> 00:22:39,801
Speaker 2: of things. I mean, you're back at work within two

439
00:22:39,801 --> 00:22:42,241
Speaker 2: and a half years back at the Star group, Yes,

440
00:22:42,921 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: how did you approach that whole elongated process that you've faced.

441
00:22:48,321 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: Well, my thinking of taking responsibility and relation to the

442
00:22:51,721 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 1: shooting carried forward into managing my mental health moving forward

443
00:22:57,441 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 1: after the shooting. So part of that visualization is I

444
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,721
Speaker 1: said to myself, how is this going to affect me mentally? Emotionally? Nightmares, flashbacks,

445
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: panic attacks. These were all reality that happened for other people.

446
00:23:09,521 --> 00:23:11,561
Speaker 1: If they do happen for me, how will I manage it?

447
00:23:11,921 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: So five days after the shooting, through my hand in

448
00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: there and said, get me a psych. I want to

449
00:23:16,721 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: talk to a psych. It took Sapole three months to

450
00:23:19,961 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: get a psych to me. That's another discussion altogether. But

451
00:23:24,041 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 1: when I spoke to that psych, I ran through what

452
00:23:26,721 --> 00:23:30,521
Speaker 1: my thinking was be the visualization, the conversations that I had,

453
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,201
Speaker 1: the responsibility that i'd taken, the future thoughts that I had,

454
00:23:34,721 --> 00:23:37,521
Speaker 1: the fact that I'd had nightmares but they weren't recurring,

455
00:23:37,761 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: the fact that I'd had bad dreams but they were

456
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,321
Speaker 1: always good outcomes, even though they were struggles during the dream.

457
00:23:43,801 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: I'd had panic attacks, but they weren't recurring, and I

458
00:23:47,441 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: was open about all of this and because of the

459
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: way my mindset has been set up in that taking

460
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,481
Speaker 1: responsibility and looking future focused, the Pike said, Derek, psychologically,

461
00:23:58,481 --> 00:24:01,921
Speaker 1: you're doing absolutely perfectly. There is no PTSD. Yes, you've

462
00:24:01,921 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: had some effects, but it is not PTSD. And I

463
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,281
Speaker 1: didn't need any ongoing therapy because he said the way

464
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: my mind works and my openness too are having challenges

465
00:24:12,321 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: and changes in my life. If I did need psych

466
00:24:15,961 --> 00:24:17,521
Speaker 1: I would come back and see him, and I was

467
00:24:17,561 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: completely open to that. So I'm very, very fortunate that

468
00:24:20,961 --> 00:24:27,001
Speaker 1: what happened to me was actually post traumatic growth, not PTSD. Right,

469
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: How interesting you know you're so organized about this.

470
00:24:30,201 --> 00:24:33,001
Speaker 2: A year after you had that experience, I was in

471
00:24:33,041 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: a township in South Africa and we got carjacked six

472
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:37,721
Speaker 2: guys with guns who were drunk, and they wanted to

473
00:24:37,761 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: kill us.

474
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: They attained us for half an hour.

475
00:24:40,281 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: And I'm the son of a psychiatrist, right, And I've

476
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,881
Speaker 2: been in that stree to hundred times in dreams, right,

477
00:24:47,041 --> 00:24:50,521
Speaker 2: hundreds of times, getting shot, not getting shot, getting away,

478
00:24:51,001 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 2: remaining the all kinds of stuff, kids appearing to me,

479
00:24:53,441 --> 00:24:56,041
Speaker 2: all kinds of things. I never had any therapy whatsoever.

480
00:24:56,241 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 2: And I should have. I wi't look back, and I

481
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 2: realized should have. I was trying to be tough and

482
00:24:59,681 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: get back to work. I was a free large journalist.

483
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,001
Speaker 2: I didn't have time for that. But you decided that

484
00:25:04,041 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 2: you were going, and much against the grain of those years.

485
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,041
Speaker 1: By the way, oh yeah, absolutely four.

486
00:25:09,241 --> 00:25:13,241
Speaker 2: They weren't doing that sort of stuff as course as

487
00:25:13,241 --> 00:25:13,801
Speaker 2: I do now.

488
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: Certainly not the tough guys. The tough guys were not

489
00:25:17,001 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: doing it. And I say that inverted Commas and I

490
00:25:19,961 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: don't know where that came from. I can only put

491
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: it down to my parenting that made me open to

492
00:25:24,961 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: that vulnerability. Intuitively, I knew it was what I needed

493
00:25:28,521 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: to do. But it's not because I felt weak. I

494
00:25:30,681 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I was breaking. It was just I

495
00:25:33,481 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: wanted that insight. They've got more expertise than me. They've

496
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,281
Speaker 1: seen people who have dealt with it badly. They've also

497
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: seen people who have dealt with it well, and I

498
00:25:40,961 --> 00:25:43,801
Speaker 1: wanted to pick their brains about what the experience might

499
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,521
Speaker 1: be for me. And again, it's responsibility for choice, behavior,

500
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: consequence and the future afterwards. Here I am I've been shot.

501
00:25:52,761 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: This is not my choice, it's my circumstance. But what

502
00:25:55,441 --> 00:25:57,561
Speaker 1: does the future look like, what are the behaviors from here?

503
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,561
Speaker 1: What's the experience I'm going to have? What might the good,

504
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,321
Speaker 1: what might the bad be? And if it does happen,

505
00:26:03,521 --> 00:26:07,121
Speaker 1: how do I handle it myself? The best outcome? And

506
00:26:07,241 --> 00:26:10,921
Speaker 1: the reading research that I've done recently, most people see

507
00:26:10,921 --> 00:26:13,561
Speaker 1: that you either have PTSD or you have a good outcome.

508
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: The research that's coming out now is they coexist. You

509
00:26:18,241 --> 00:26:21,921
Speaker 1: can have PTSD but still have good insights and good

510
00:26:21,921 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: life afterwards. Even though you have PTSD. PTSD is not

511
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 1: isolated and a conviction to a terrible life afterwards. You

512
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: can have some PTSD and still have good life as well.

513
00:26:34,681 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: And so that research, I think it's going to open

514
00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:40,801
Speaker 1: up the minds of people dealing with PTSD from military

515
00:26:40,921 --> 00:26:45,001
Speaker 1: or emergency services or any form of PTSD. I have

516
00:26:45,041 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: a friend who got PTSD from a very bad step parenting.

517
00:26:49,721 --> 00:26:52,681
Speaker 1: She was a step parenting. It wasn't pretty and she's

518
00:26:52,721 --> 00:26:56,281
Speaker 1: got PTSD from that. And the model can help anybody

519
00:26:56,321 --> 00:26:59,721
Speaker 1: going through those challenges. Hmmm. I think I should go

520
00:26:59,761 --> 00:27:03,721
Speaker 1: for some therapy now having this because I still see

521
00:27:03,721 --> 00:27:07,521
Speaker 1: the nine come and see me afterwards, Adam, I still see.

522
00:27:07,321 --> 00:27:10,041
Speaker 2: That nine mil Barrel pointed at me, and I can

523
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,241
Speaker 2: still see our sound records. We were shooting television and

524
00:27:12,321 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: sound recorders, negotiating for our lives. He was from that

525
00:27:15,321 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: area and their attitude was we should just kill these

526
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,641
Speaker 2: people and take their car. Fools, what are you doing

527
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,561
Speaker 2: in the South African township. I think that has profoundly

528
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,801
Speaker 2: affected me. But I think everyone's life, whether a police

529
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: officer or a journalist. So if you're out there in

530
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,121
Speaker 2: the wilds, there's going to be trauma. But I think

531
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: your attitude about preparing oneself for it and recognizing it

532
00:27:36,281 --> 00:27:38,721
Speaker 2: and having a plan is a good one.

533
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Again, the research that I'm doing shows an insight

534
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: into the fact that within every eighteen month period in

535
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,241
Speaker 1: our life, there is some sort of trauma. Now this

536
00:27:51,321 --> 00:27:54,241
Speaker 1: is not a physical trauma. It might be the hot

537
00:27:54,281 --> 00:27:57,321
Speaker 1: water service bursts when you're having a party. It might

538
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,281
Speaker 1: be the children have to go to hospital. It might

539
00:27:59,321 --> 00:28:01,841
Speaker 1: be the car breaks down. It might be you have

540
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:06,721
Speaker 1: a breakup in your relationship divorce. Eighteen month period, there

541
00:28:06,761 --> 00:28:10,521
Speaker 1: is some sort of major incident which could be traumatic,

542
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: or it could be just do you know something, this

543
00:28:12,521 --> 00:28:15,201
Speaker 1: has happened, let's manage it. Let's move on. I think

544
00:28:15,281 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: there are too many people who go I want a

545
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,281
Speaker 1: good life and I don't want anything bad to happen.

546
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,561
Speaker 1: But let's be honest. There are highs, there are lows,

547
00:28:23,001 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: and we need to just be able to go, Okay,

548
00:28:24,721 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: this is a low period. What can we do to

549
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,761
Speaker 1: manage it. We are not the first people on the

550
00:28:29,801 --> 00:28:32,521
Speaker 1: face of this earth. We have been here for millennia

551
00:28:32,921 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: and there has always been highs and lows and challenges.

552
00:28:36,241 --> 00:28:38,361
Speaker 1: No matter who you are, no matter how much money

553
00:28:38,401 --> 00:28:41,361
Speaker 1: you've got, how much bad parenting you've been exposed to,

554
00:28:41,681 --> 00:28:44,681
Speaker 1: We've all had it. So let's accept the reality that

555
00:28:44,721 --> 00:28:47,401
Speaker 1: we are going to face challenges, have some idea of

556
00:28:47,441 --> 00:28:49,361
Speaker 1: what we're going to deal with, some idea of how

557
00:28:49,361 --> 00:28:52,841
Speaker 1: it's going to affect us feelings, emotions, and some idea

558
00:28:52,881 --> 00:28:55,001
Speaker 1: of how we're going to be able to manage it.

559
00:28:55,001 --> 00:28:56,561
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that we're not going to suffer. It

560
00:28:56,561 --> 00:28:58,321
Speaker 1: doesn't mean we're not going to be upset, doesn't mean

561
00:28:58,321 --> 00:29:00,281
Speaker 1: that we're not going to be going, oh my god,

562
00:29:00,361 --> 00:29:04,801
Speaker 1: this is terrible, but we can proactively prepare to manage it.

563
00:29:05,281 --> 00:29:09,081
Speaker 2: I've been talking to a Grand Prix motorcycle racer who

564
00:29:09,121 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: had a very serious accident, and he came back to

565
00:29:12,321 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: racing and he found that he could never approach a

566
00:29:17,321 --> 00:29:20,081
Speaker 2: corner the way he had previously. He could never have

567
00:29:20,201 --> 00:29:22,521
Speaker 2: that confidence and faith that there was nothing around the

568
00:29:22,521 --> 00:29:24,601
Speaker 2: corner that was going to hit him or or clide

569
00:29:24,641 --> 00:29:28,641
Speaker 2: into whatever. How did you return to your service having

570
00:29:28,921 --> 00:29:33,081
Speaker 2: gone through that experience and survived?

571
00:29:33,321 --> 00:29:35,801
Speaker 1: You know, this is something else that I absolutely love

572
00:29:35,881 --> 00:29:38,321
Speaker 1: to talk about, is the choices we make and the

573
00:29:38,361 --> 00:29:41,601
Speaker 1: circumstances we throw ourselves into. I was able to go

574
00:29:41,641 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: back to stargroup because I was absolutely passionate about that world.

575
00:29:46,241 --> 00:29:49,401
Speaker 1: I absolutely loved it. But I didn't do it as

576
00:29:49,401 --> 00:29:52,601
Speaker 1: a risk taker. I did it as a risk manager,

577
00:29:53,161 --> 00:29:56,521
Speaker 1: and there's a very different perspective and mindset around both

578
00:29:56,561 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: of those. The racing car driver going back into the

579
00:29:59,281 --> 00:30:03,081
Speaker 1: racing and absolutely committing himself even though he didn't have faith,

580
00:30:03,361 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: that is risk taking. I went back in and I

581
00:30:07,081 --> 00:30:10,161
Speaker 1: had staged introduction back in. I went back into training

582
00:30:10,481 --> 00:30:13,161
Speaker 1: to see whether I would balk or get scared, or

583
00:30:13,401 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: what my actions would be in training, and our training

584
00:30:15,801 --> 00:30:19,481
Speaker 1: is very realistic. For anybody who's played paintball and knows

585
00:30:19,521 --> 00:30:21,961
Speaker 1: that it hurts, come play with us. We have high

586
00:30:21,961 --> 00:30:25,281
Speaker 1: tech paintball, so our training is very realistic and I

587
00:30:25,321 --> 00:30:28,081
Speaker 1: went back into that and absolutely loved it. The first

588
00:30:28,161 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: job that I went back to, I was in the

589
00:30:30,241 --> 00:30:33,361
Speaker 1: outer courdon, way away from the action, and people were

590
00:30:33,401 --> 00:30:36,041
Speaker 1: watching me. I was watching me. I then went to

591
00:30:36,081 --> 00:30:38,681
Speaker 1: the innerccordon. I then went to the arrest team. The

592
00:30:38,761 --> 00:30:41,001
Speaker 1: arrest team see the offender when he's brought out of

593
00:30:41,041 --> 00:30:44,321
Speaker 1: their premises. I then went to entry team. And at

594
00:30:44,321 --> 00:30:47,041
Speaker 1: every stage I was assessing myself, but I also knew

595
00:30:47,401 --> 00:30:51,801
Speaker 1: and accepted and expected everybody else to be watching me

596
00:30:52,481 --> 00:30:56,281
Speaker 1: and judging me as to how I was going to perform. Now,

597
00:30:56,321 --> 00:30:58,281
Speaker 1: most people would be intimidated by that. You've got to

598
00:30:58,281 --> 00:31:01,161
Speaker 1: trust me. Why are you judging me? No, I would

599
00:31:01,201 --> 00:31:05,801
Speaker 1: be exactly the same, So that didn't intimidate me. You've

600
00:31:05,801 --> 00:31:08,281
Speaker 1: got to watch me. And the thought in my head

601
00:31:08,361 --> 00:31:11,161
Speaker 1: is if I balk at any stage, I'm out of there,

602
00:31:11,561 --> 00:31:13,801
Speaker 1: because not only does it put my life in danger,

603
00:31:14,121 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: it puts my partner's lives in danger as well, and

604
00:31:17,281 --> 00:31:20,001
Speaker 1: we've got to think about everybody involved. So it was very,

605
00:31:20,081 --> 00:31:22,721
Speaker 1: very stage, but I was passionate about getting in there.

606
00:31:23,281 --> 00:31:25,681
Speaker 1: The conversations I like to have with people around. That

607
00:31:25,721 --> 00:31:29,041
Speaker 1: sort of stuff is in policing. There are people in

608
00:31:29,081 --> 00:31:33,441
Speaker 1: particular who get into child sex offender investigation and they

609
00:31:33,521 --> 00:31:36,441
Speaker 1: find this becomes too overwhelming for them. Oh my gosh,

610
00:31:36,521 --> 00:31:39,521
Speaker 1: it's too bad. But I can't leave because people think

611
00:31:39,561 --> 00:31:41,961
Speaker 1: I'm weak, people will think I'm not good enough, people

612
00:31:42,001 --> 00:31:44,161
Speaker 1: will judge me where They've got to say, do you

613
00:31:44,161 --> 00:31:47,361
Speaker 1: know something this environment is not right for me. I

614
00:31:47,441 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: want to go and find something that I really enjoy,

615
00:31:49,841 --> 00:31:52,841
Speaker 1: I'm passionate about, and go and do that. But they

616
00:31:52,881 --> 00:31:54,721
Speaker 1: stay there because they don't want to be judged or

617
00:31:54,721 --> 00:31:57,801
Speaker 1: they don't want to feel weak themselves. And unfortunately, I've

618
00:31:57,801 --> 00:32:00,561
Speaker 1: had one friend who took his life because it all

619
00:32:00,641 --> 00:32:03,401
Speaker 1: became too much for him. And we need to make

620
00:32:03,441 --> 00:32:06,601
Speaker 1: better decisions about what we're passion about. Another example I

621
00:32:06,721 --> 00:32:09,041
Speaker 1: quickly want to give you is I've got an accountant,

622
00:32:09,081 --> 00:32:12,201
Speaker 1: and she is an absolutely beautiful lady. She could never

623
00:32:12,241 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: be a stary, she could never be on the end

624
00:32:13,761 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: of a trigger and take someone's life if she needed to.

625
00:32:17,321 --> 00:32:19,841
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now if I became an accountant,

626
00:32:19,961 --> 00:32:23,161
Speaker 1: it would send me round the twist. Because she is passionate.

627
00:32:23,361 --> 00:32:26,081
Speaker 1: She stays up at night worrying about my numbers. We

628
00:32:26,241 --> 00:32:29,361
Speaker 1: need people to follow their passion because that's where they're

629
00:32:29,401 --> 00:32:31,201
Speaker 1: going to be happy, and we need to be bold

630
00:32:31,281 --> 00:32:33,081
Speaker 1: enough to go to know something. I'm not enjoying this.

631
00:32:33,761 --> 00:32:36,161
Speaker 1: And so if at any stage I went back into

632
00:32:36,201 --> 00:32:38,761
Speaker 1: stargroup and I said to myself, do you know this

633
00:32:38,841 --> 00:32:41,401
Speaker 1: is too much? I don't like this? Or if a

634
00:32:41,441 --> 00:32:43,841
Speaker 1: member of my family had said this is too much

635
00:32:44,401 --> 00:32:47,321
Speaker 1: my family were more important than the job, I would

636
00:32:47,321 --> 00:32:48,361
Speaker 1: have found a different passion.

637
00:32:50,801 --> 00:32:52,801
Speaker 2: It's one thing to have a near death experience, which

638
00:32:52,801 --> 00:32:56,201
Speaker 2: you had, but it's also something else to be part

639
00:32:56,241 --> 00:32:59,561
Speaker 2: of a team that takes a life and the impact

640
00:32:59,561 --> 00:33:01,081
Speaker 2: that has on members.

641
00:33:01,721 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: Can you talk us through what that's like. Have you

642
00:33:03,441 --> 00:33:06,281
Speaker 1: been in that situation as well. I've never had to

643
00:33:06,321 --> 00:33:09,121
Speaker 1: take a life. When I fired back at the guy

644
00:33:09,201 --> 00:33:11,881
Speaker 1: who shot me, I did hit him with a bit

645
00:33:11,921 --> 00:33:14,121
Speaker 1: of shrapnel that came from a brick, and there was

646
00:33:14,161 --> 00:33:17,361
Speaker 1: a bullet that skipped across the lower back. So I've

647
00:33:17,401 --> 00:33:20,881
Speaker 1: certainly shot and hit someone, but I've never taken a life,

648
00:33:20,881 --> 00:33:23,481
Speaker 1: and I've never been part of taking a life. But again,

649
00:33:23,561 --> 00:33:27,121
Speaker 1: this goes down to I've visualized the fact that if

650
00:33:27,401 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: and this was in particular to dis job. I'll give

651
00:33:29,521 --> 00:33:32,681
Speaker 1: you that scenario. As we approached the house, I was

652
00:33:32,841 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: running through the scenario in my mind. I know that

653
00:33:35,521 --> 00:33:38,601
Speaker 1: his wife and two very young children were in the house,

654
00:33:39,401 --> 00:33:42,281
Speaker 1: and if he started shooting, which was a real possibility,

655
00:33:42,721 --> 00:33:44,801
Speaker 1: I was going to need to shoot back into the house.

656
00:33:45,161 --> 00:33:47,401
Speaker 1: And if I'm shooting at him and his wife or

657
00:33:47,401 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: one of his children are standing near him, I may

658
00:33:49,761 --> 00:33:53,441
Speaker 1: shoot them accidentally. And I had to prepare myself. If

659
00:33:53,441 --> 00:33:56,161
Speaker 1: I shoot them, how am I going to feel? How

660
00:33:56,241 --> 00:33:59,281
Speaker 1: is it going to affect them? And I'd already justified

661
00:33:59,321 --> 00:34:01,601
Speaker 1: in my mind that I am trying to protect the

662
00:34:01,681 --> 00:34:05,681
Speaker 1: lives of myself or my partners. I'm trying to stop

663
00:34:05,801 --> 00:34:08,801
Speaker 1: him if somebody else gets hit. It is not something

664
00:34:08,841 --> 00:34:11,961
Speaker 1: I'm doing deliberately, and that's going to affect me in

665
00:34:12,001 --> 00:34:13,801
Speaker 1: a certain way. But I needed to be able to

666
00:34:13,801 --> 00:34:17,841
Speaker 1: be comfortable with that. I took it even further that

667
00:34:18,001 --> 00:34:20,841
Speaker 1: if I shot him and he had died and I

668
00:34:20,921 --> 00:34:23,721
Speaker 1: ran into one of his children, when they turn eighteen

669
00:34:23,921 --> 00:34:26,321
Speaker 1: twenty and they meet me and they approached me and

670
00:34:26,401 --> 00:34:29,241
Speaker 1: they say, you killed my father. I've had a terrible

671
00:34:29,281 --> 00:34:31,361
Speaker 1: life as a result of that how am I going

672
00:34:31,401 --> 00:34:34,721
Speaker 1: to feel eighteen years, twenty years from now? And I'd

673
00:34:34,841 --> 00:34:37,721
Speaker 1: run that through my mind and I felt like I

674
00:34:37,841 --> 00:34:41,801
Speaker 1: was reasonably well prepared that I can sit comfortably with.

675
00:34:42,001 --> 00:34:45,001
Speaker 1: I was trying to do the right thing and responding

676
00:34:45,041 --> 00:34:48,921
Speaker 1: to the behaviors of the offender, and it was him

677
00:34:49,121 --> 00:34:51,961
Speaker 1: that had caused the situation I was responding to. It

678
00:34:52,361 --> 00:34:54,721
Speaker 1: have to take responsibility for I fired the shot. I

679
00:34:54,761 --> 00:34:57,721
Speaker 1: took the life of whoever it might have been. But

680
00:34:57,761 --> 00:35:00,321
Speaker 1: I had to prepare myself for what would it feel like?

681
00:35:00,441 --> 00:35:03,081
Speaker 1: How would I answer that twenty years down the track.

682
00:35:03,561 --> 00:35:06,361
Speaker 1: So I don't know where I get that mindset from,

683
00:35:06,921 --> 00:35:09,601
Speaker 1: but I find that it is appropriate. I work with

684
00:35:09,681 --> 00:35:13,121
Speaker 1: kids in schools who are dealing with bullying, being excluded

685
00:35:13,121 --> 00:35:17,081
Speaker 1: from friendship groups, dealing with learning activities. I'm about to

686
00:35:17,121 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: go and work with some MI five retired officers in

687
00:35:21,161 --> 00:35:24,761
Speaker 1: London and deliver an executive retreat for how people can

688
00:35:24,841 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: run their businesses in life better. The philosophy that I'm

689
00:35:28,721 --> 00:35:31,681
Speaker 1: coming up with by reflecting on what I did, is

690
00:35:31,761 --> 00:35:35,161
Speaker 1: universally applicable and it could be applied to what can

691
00:35:35,241 --> 00:35:38,921
Speaker 1: be judged as the most menial challenge. But I like

692
00:35:38,961 --> 00:35:42,201
Speaker 1: to say that kids going through bullying, kids going through

693
00:35:42,281 --> 00:35:45,561
Speaker 1: being excluded. Some parents go, oh, isn't it cute? In

694
00:35:45,601 --> 00:35:48,721
Speaker 1: five years time, they'll never remember it. It really doesn't matter.

695
00:35:48,761 --> 00:35:50,721
Speaker 1: We don't have to deal with it too much. I

696
00:35:50,721 --> 00:35:53,361
Speaker 1: can tell you right now that is life and death

697
00:35:53,441 --> 00:35:56,681
Speaker 1: to that five year old child that I have been excluded.

698
00:35:56,761 --> 00:35:59,121
Speaker 1: Oh my, it's the biggest thing that's happening to them.

699
00:35:59,321 --> 00:36:02,441
Speaker 1: It needs to be given the reality that they perceive

700
00:36:02,481 --> 00:36:05,001
Speaker 1: it to be and then put into context and everything else.

701
00:36:05,601 --> 00:36:08,521
Speaker 1: But what I talked about these days is universally applicable,

702
00:36:08,961 --> 00:36:13,041
Speaker 1: and I love putting it into scenarios for absolutely anybody.

703
00:36:14,041 --> 00:36:18,641
Speaker 2: Indeed, police officers and soldiers on that ilk use black

704
00:36:18,681 --> 00:36:21,681
Speaker 2: humor to get through things. Oh yeah, in your case,

705
00:36:22,161 --> 00:36:25,401
Speaker 2: your colleagues had a nickname for you, which I think

706
00:36:25,481 --> 00:36:27,921
Speaker 2: is I wouldn't say it to you, but I guess

707
00:36:27,921 --> 00:36:28,361
Speaker 2: they could.

708
00:36:28,561 --> 00:36:32,041
Speaker 1: What was it had so many holes? Well, I welcome

709
00:36:32,201 --> 00:36:34,161
Speaker 1: anybody to be able to say it to me because

710
00:36:34,201 --> 00:36:37,281
Speaker 1: I embraced the dark sense of humor as well. And

711
00:36:37,321 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: they certainly called me Sprinkler for a little while and

712
00:36:40,401 --> 00:36:41,601
Speaker 1: after another drink of water.

713
00:36:42,801 --> 00:36:47,001
Speaker 2: It's just terrible image, but it's quite funny.

714
00:36:46,641 --> 00:36:49,081
Speaker 1: Somebody else came up with and it was a female

715
00:36:49,121 --> 00:36:51,961
Speaker 1: police officer came up with the nickname of Donald, and

716
00:36:52,001 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: I've gone away, Hang on, my name's Derek. She's gone No.

717
00:36:54,561 --> 00:36:57,401
Speaker 1: From now on, it's Donald because you forgot to duck

718
00:37:01,641 --> 00:37:04,281
Speaker 1: and the name has become creative. And the thing I

719
00:37:04,281 --> 00:37:06,281
Speaker 1: love is it is dark sense of humor, and it

720
00:37:06,321 --> 00:37:09,201
Speaker 1: is light hard, and it does break tension, but nobody

721
00:37:09,281 --> 00:37:13,721
Speaker 1: has done it disrespectfully, and they've always said in their minds,

722
00:37:14,121 --> 00:37:16,641
Speaker 1: is Derek capable of managing this? The other thing that

723
00:37:16,641 --> 00:37:18,561
Speaker 1: I'd like to say about the dark sense of humor

724
00:37:19,081 --> 00:37:21,841
Speaker 1: is I have seen too many police officers dark sense

725
00:37:21,841 --> 00:37:25,721
Speaker 1: of humor absolutely crack up laughings, crack jokes, then fall

726
00:37:25,721 --> 00:37:28,801
Speaker 1: over with depression. Because the dark sense of humor can

727
00:37:28,841 --> 00:37:31,761
Speaker 1: break the tension for the moment, but we still need

728
00:37:31,801 --> 00:37:34,521
Speaker 1: to do the work in the background to manage those

729
00:37:34,561 --> 00:37:37,921
Speaker 1: experiences and put them into context. Dark sense of humor

730
00:37:37,961 --> 00:37:41,121
Speaker 1: alone is a very dangerous thing, but it certainly has

731
00:37:41,161 --> 00:37:44,081
Speaker 1: its place, and I completely embrace it and love it,

732
00:37:44,121 --> 00:37:46,001
Speaker 1: and it's continuing today.

733
00:37:47,041 --> 00:37:49,201
Speaker 2: At the time of this incident, I don't think people

734
00:37:49,201 --> 00:37:52,761
Speaker 2: were even talking about PTSD. I talked about shell shock

735
00:37:52,881 --> 00:37:56,281
Speaker 2: or depression or different things. Do you think we're managing

736
00:37:56,321 --> 00:37:58,801
Speaker 2: to get better these days? Is there a recognition that

737
00:37:58,881 --> 00:38:01,081
Speaker 2: it is such an insidious thing PTSD?

738
00:38:01,961 --> 00:38:05,841
Speaker 1: Yeah, the first mention of PTSD was by military and

739
00:38:05,881 --> 00:38:08,841
Speaker 1: it was certainly surface level. But the first mention of

740
00:38:08,881 --> 00:38:12,641
Speaker 1: PTSD goes back to the seventies. You know, we've still

741
00:38:12,641 --> 00:38:16,321
Speaker 1: talked about shell shock and not recognizing that it was

742
00:38:16,361 --> 00:38:20,001
Speaker 1: actually something that we could manage. We are managing a

743
00:38:20,041 --> 00:38:23,681
Speaker 1: lot better these days. It's very much accepted and people

744
00:38:23,881 --> 00:38:27,881
Speaker 1: understand what they're going through, and that understanding creates insight,

745
00:38:28,121 --> 00:38:32,001
Speaker 1: creates comfortableness. Okay, what I'm dealing with is actually reality.

746
00:38:32,041 --> 00:38:34,161
Speaker 1: It's not just me, it's other people as well. There

747
00:38:34,201 --> 00:38:36,641
Speaker 1: is a way to manage it, and we are more

748
00:38:36,681 --> 00:38:40,361
Speaker 1: open to talking about mental challenges, mental health issues, and

749
00:38:40,401 --> 00:38:44,041
Speaker 1: our mental well being. The challenge that is still out

750
00:38:44,081 --> 00:38:47,761
Speaker 1: there is that employers are not employers are paying lip

751
00:38:47,761 --> 00:38:50,601
Speaker 1: service to it. Yes, we understand it, and we want

752
00:38:50,601 --> 00:38:52,441
Speaker 1: to give you help and all the rest of it,

753
00:38:52,481 --> 00:38:55,921
Speaker 1: but we still see those members being pushed aside and

754
00:38:55,961 --> 00:39:00,401
Speaker 1: not given opportunities, not given promotions, and not embraced completely.

755
00:39:00,801 --> 00:39:03,081
Speaker 1: It certainly needs to be managed, but it needs to

756
00:39:03,121 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: be embraced and supported. Going back to my model of

757
00:39:07,161 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: what are the choices we're making, What are the consequences

758
00:39:09,481 --> 00:39:11,641
Speaker 1: we can find ourselves in. What does the future look like?

759
00:39:12,161 --> 00:39:16,321
Speaker 1: The more we prepare ourselves beforehand for the reality that

760
00:39:16,401 --> 00:39:18,801
Speaker 1: I'm going into the army, I may be shot and injured,

761
00:39:18,801 --> 00:39:21,441
Speaker 1: I may be shot and killed, or as you said,

762
00:39:21,761 --> 00:39:24,721
Speaker 1: I may shoot someone. How's that going to make me feel?

763
00:39:25,161 --> 00:39:27,921
Speaker 1: We will get taught. You know, you're allowed to justify it.

764
00:39:27,961 --> 00:39:31,401
Speaker 1: And I don't have a religious background. People with religious backgrounds,

765
00:39:31,761 --> 00:39:35,721
Speaker 1: this is affecting them morally, and they're making choices that

766
00:39:35,761 --> 00:39:39,441
Speaker 1: they're not comfortable with. But the better we can prepare

767
00:39:39,481 --> 00:39:43,081
Speaker 1: them for that physical as well as the mental and

768
00:39:43,201 --> 00:39:46,361
Speaker 1: emotional challenge, the better chance we've got of them having

769
00:39:46,441 --> 00:39:48,001
Speaker 1: good outcomes afterwards.

770
00:39:48,881 --> 00:39:52,321
Speaker 2: Certainly, May five, nineteen ninety four was a pivotal day

771
00:39:52,401 --> 00:39:56,561
Speaker 2: for you, and I wonder whether, given what you're doing now,

772
00:39:57,121 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 2: you could almost give a perverse vote of thanks to

773
00:40:00,441 --> 00:40:05,761
Speaker 2: Tony Grosser, that vivid moment as because part of your

774
00:40:05,761 --> 00:40:08,601
Speaker 2: toolbox as you do what you do now.

775
00:40:09,081 --> 00:40:13,081
Speaker 1: I smile, Riley. I love the way you have put that,

776
00:40:13,161 --> 00:40:16,281
Speaker 1: and it describes it perfectly. I actually spent another twenty

777
00:40:16,321 --> 00:40:19,081
Speaker 1: three years in the job. I retired in twenty eighteen,

778
00:40:19,681 --> 00:40:23,321
Speaker 1: but having a perverse sense of thanks to him, I

779
00:40:23,361 --> 00:40:27,281
Speaker 1: completely embraced that he did open up opportunities for me

780
00:40:27,761 --> 00:40:30,841
Speaker 1: to have a look at my own behavior, my own

781
00:40:30,881 --> 00:40:35,001
Speaker 1: thought process, which my personal overview of this, and it

782
00:40:35,041 --> 00:40:38,481
Speaker 1: fits within that philosophy. My personal overview is I went

783
00:40:38,521 --> 00:40:40,841
Speaker 1: to work, I got shot, I fell down, I got up,

784
00:40:40,881 --> 00:40:43,761
Speaker 1: I got better, I went back to work, and that's

785
00:40:43,801 --> 00:40:45,561
Speaker 1: how I saw it when I spoke to my wife,

786
00:40:45,721 --> 00:40:48,801
Speaker 1: That's how I saw it in my visualizations. But because

787
00:40:48,801 --> 00:40:51,121
Speaker 1: of what's happened to me, people have said to me,

788
00:40:51,361 --> 00:40:53,241
Speaker 1: what were you thinking? How did you do that? How

789
00:40:53,281 --> 00:40:55,961
Speaker 1: did you know to do that? And as a result

790
00:40:56,041 --> 00:40:59,321
Speaker 1: of me being shot, thank you, Tony, I've now been

791
00:40:59,361 --> 00:41:02,441
Speaker 1: able to share that with other people. Very quickly. I

792
00:41:02,481 --> 00:41:05,001
Speaker 1: got approached by corporates to come and tell the story,

793
00:41:05,321 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: and I literally said, no, not a chance. I don't

794
00:41:07,481 --> 00:41:09,641
Speaker 1: want to. I do not want to stand on stage

795
00:41:09,641 --> 00:41:11,921
Speaker 1: as a hero, because the heroes are the people that

796
00:41:11,961 --> 00:41:14,801
Speaker 1: saved me. The Blood Service came to me and said,

797
00:41:14,921 --> 00:41:17,081
Speaker 1: I used a stack of blood. Would I like to

798
00:41:17,121 --> 00:41:19,881
Speaker 1: say thank you to Blood? Donors and I've gone absolutely

799
00:41:19,921 --> 00:41:21,641
Speaker 1: I can say thank you all day long. And that

800
00:41:21,761 --> 00:41:24,161
Speaker 1: was telling the story, given the details, all those things

801
00:41:24,241 --> 00:41:26,881
Speaker 1: the corporates wanted. But this wasn't about me. It was

802
00:41:26,921 --> 00:41:29,641
Speaker 1: about me saying thank you to the blood donors. And

803
00:41:29,841 --> 00:41:32,921
Speaker 1: it was the blood donors that started asking these questions

804
00:41:32,961 --> 00:41:35,401
Speaker 1: what were you thinking and saying, oh my god, you

805
00:41:35,481 --> 00:41:37,721
Speaker 1: have changed my life, and I'm going, no, you changed

806
00:41:37,761 --> 00:41:40,321
Speaker 1: my life. But it gave me the insight that there

807
00:41:40,401 --> 00:41:44,121
Speaker 1: is greater, deeper messages in here that I'm able to share.

808
00:41:44,201 --> 00:41:47,761
Speaker 1: So I stand on stage, I run workshops to share

809
00:41:47,801 --> 00:41:49,561
Speaker 1: that with other people, because you.

810
00:41:49,521 --> 00:41:52,361
Speaker 2: Do bring this message to a diverse range of audiences.

811
00:41:52,601 --> 00:41:54,201
Speaker 2: And one thing I noticed in your material is you

812
00:41:54,281 --> 00:41:57,721
Speaker 2: delineate between resilience, which most people are familiar with, it's

813
00:41:57,721 --> 00:41:59,841
Speaker 2: a common term now, and durability.

814
00:41:59,881 --> 00:42:04,721
Speaker 1: What's the difference, So resilience as it's commonly accepted, is

815
00:42:04,761 --> 00:42:08,921
Speaker 1: there a ability to encounter problems in counter failures, breakdowns

816
00:42:08,961 --> 00:42:12,201
Speaker 1: and bounce back. And most people are going, I will

817
00:42:12,241 --> 00:42:15,281
Speaker 1: be resilient when something goes wrong, I'll activate my resilience.

818
00:42:15,721 --> 00:42:19,001
Speaker 1: And we are now hearing in corporate impersonal in schools,

819
00:42:19,241 --> 00:42:21,681
Speaker 1: you need to be more resilient people are now getting

820
00:42:21,721 --> 00:42:25,561
Speaker 1: resilience fatigue because they're hearing it all that often resilience

821
00:42:25,681 --> 00:42:28,281
Speaker 1: is accepted as their ability to bounce back. What I

822
00:42:28,321 --> 00:42:32,001
Speaker 1: talk about with human durability is our ability to sustain

823
00:42:32,241 --> 00:42:36,321
Speaker 1: optimal performance, and optimal performance is the very best you

824
00:42:36,321 --> 00:42:39,921
Speaker 1: can possibly do in the circumstances. I just wrote a

825
00:42:40,081 --> 00:42:44,201
Speaker 1: post today for LinkedIn and my other socials that in stargroup,

826
00:42:44,281 --> 00:42:47,841
Speaker 1: I was trained to perform at one hundred percent one

827
00:42:47,881 --> 00:42:50,881
Speaker 1: hundred percent of the time absolute peak performance. If I

828
00:42:50,921 --> 00:42:53,601
Speaker 1: didn't do that, it was not acceptable and people would

829
00:42:53,681 --> 00:42:55,921
Speaker 1: possibly die as a result of it. But at the

830
00:42:55,961 --> 00:42:59,441
Speaker 1: time I got shot, if I'd tried to sustain peak performance,

831
00:42:59,801 --> 00:43:02,401
Speaker 1: that would have meant that I kept on running, fighting, shooting,

832
00:43:02,801 --> 00:43:05,041
Speaker 1: trying to break into the house I would have done

833
00:43:05,401 --> 00:43:09,041
Speaker 1: because I would have exhausted my body. Intuitively, I had

834
00:43:09,081 --> 00:43:11,641
Speaker 1: this vision, what's my mind going to want to do?

835
00:43:11,721 --> 00:43:13,761
Speaker 1: What's my body wanting to do? What can I do

836
00:43:13,841 --> 00:43:17,401
Speaker 1: to influence it to be able to sustain optimal performance?

837
00:43:17,441 --> 00:43:20,761
Speaker 1: Four things I needed to do. Control panic, don't let

838
00:43:20,841 --> 00:43:25,641
Speaker 1: panic control the situation, control shock, our body's physiological response

839
00:43:25,721 --> 00:43:28,961
Speaker 1: to physical or psychological drama. Slow down my heart rate,

840
00:43:29,041 --> 00:43:32,081
Speaker 1: slow down my breathing, because if I can control those

841
00:43:32,121 --> 00:43:35,161
Speaker 1: four things, I will bleed less and I will survive

842
00:43:35,241 --> 00:43:39,321
Speaker 1: for longer. And this was sustaining optimal performance. I was

843
00:43:39,361 --> 00:43:41,641
Speaker 1: also highly aware that as I was lying on the

844
00:43:41,681 --> 00:43:44,641
Speaker 1: ground and couldn't get myself up, I still had my

845
00:43:44,721 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: pistol in my hand and he was still possibly going

846
00:43:47,481 --> 00:43:49,481
Speaker 1: to come out to get me, so I was prepared

847
00:43:49,521 --> 00:43:52,321
Speaker 1: to shoot if he did come out. That was the

848
00:43:52,481 --> 00:43:56,361
Speaker 1: very best I could do, was to sustain that optimal performance.

849
00:43:56,721 --> 00:44:00,041
Speaker 1: And this goes into every other aspect of our life

850
00:44:00,081 --> 00:44:02,521
Speaker 1: as well. As I say, it's a diverse audience that

851
00:44:02,561 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: I speak to, and everybody can relate to I talked

852
00:44:05,441 --> 00:44:08,361
Speaker 1: to hairdressers, they can relate to it. I talked to tradees,

853
00:44:08,441 --> 00:44:10,681
Speaker 1: they can relate to it. Because we all have our

854
00:44:10,801 --> 00:44:14,241
Speaker 1: own challenges, and as much as mine was being shot,

855
00:44:14,601 --> 00:44:17,201
Speaker 1: I'm able to put it into context that what is

856
00:44:17,281 --> 00:44:20,721
Speaker 1: your challenge is what can you realistically expect to encounter

857
00:44:20,841 --> 00:44:23,081
Speaker 1: in your life as a result of the choices you

858
00:44:23,161 --> 00:44:26,641
Speaker 1: make or the circumstances you find yourself in, And how's

859
00:44:26,681 --> 00:44:28,001
Speaker 1: that going to make you feel? And how do you

860
00:44:28,041 --> 00:44:31,601
Speaker 1: manage that to get the best outcome afterwards. That little

861
00:44:31,641 --> 00:44:35,561
Speaker 1: bit of having open, honest, confronting conversation right at the

862
00:44:35,641 --> 00:44:37,641
Speaker 1: very beginning makes a massive difference.

863
00:44:39,481 --> 00:44:43,481
Speaker 2: At Poor Punka, we saw two members allegedly murdered by

864
00:44:43,521 --> 00:44:46,961
Speaker 2: Dizzy Freeman. A third was wounded. We saw I think

865
00:44:47,001 --> 00:44:51,601
Speaker 2: almost twenty officers pin down for that period and there

866
00:44:51,601 --> 00:44:55,161
Speaker 2: now having to deal with that day. If you could

867
00:44:55,201 --> 00:44:58,641
Speaker 2: speak to them, what would you tell them?

868
00:44:58,881 --> 00:45:01,601
Speaker 1: A lot of them are going to be feeling survivor guilt. Now,

869
00:45:01,641 --> 00:45:05,001
Speaker 1: why wasn't it me right? And that is just unrealistic,

870
00:45:05,081 --> 00:45:08,521
Speaker 1: but it's very normal. The feelings of what could I

871
00:45:08,561 --> 00:45:10,321
Speaker 1: have done? What should I have done? How could we

872
00:45:10,361 --> 00:45:14,361
Speaker 1: have been better prepared? These are very normal thoughts, and

873
00:45:14,401 --> 00:45:18,481
Speaker 1: that is the biggest challenge we have. I failed, somebody

874
00:45:18,481 --> 00:45:21,721
Speaker 1: else wouldn't have, and so we need to rationalize that

875
00:45:22,201 --> 00:45:24,161
Speaker 1: I was doing the very best that I could under

876
00:45:24,161 --> 00:45:27,401
Speaker 1: those circumstances. I've never been in a situation where I've

877
00:45:27,441 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: been shot at before, and that's a huge reality check

878
00:45:30,481 --> 00:45:33,361
Speaker 1: for anybody. It was certainly a reality check for me

879
00:45:33,401 --> 00:45:35,961
Speaker 1: when I didn't get shot. Fortunately, I had something that

880
00:45:36,001 --> 00:45:39,161
Speaker 1: I could respond to straight away, But for most people

881
00:45:39,601 --> 00:45:42,681
Speaker 1: it's something that is overwhelming The other one is the

882
00:45:42,721 --> 00:45:45,641
Speaker 1: police officers who were shot in Queensland a couple of

883
00:45:45,681 --> 00:45:48,881
Speaker 1: years ago. There was a survivor from that, and she's

884
00:45:48,961 --> 00:45:51,561
Speaker 1: going to be going through that same emotion. What could

885
00:45:51,561 --> 00:45:53,121
Speaker 1: I have done? What should I have done? How could

886
00:45:53,121 --> 00:45:56,001
Speaker 1: I have saved their lives? Why did I survive? So

887
00:45:56,641 --> 00:46:01,441
Speaker 1: getting around the mindset of this is actually normal is

888
00:46:01,481 --> 00:46:04,441
Speaker 1: one of the biggest challenges. So I would be encouraging

889
00:46:04,441 --> 00:46:06,721
Speaker 1: them just to eat, except that they were doing the

890
00:46:06,721 --> 00:46:09,401
Speaker 1: best they could. No, I'm not suggesting anybody did this,

891
00:46:09,921 --> 00:46:11,641
Speaker 1: but even if they got to the point where they

892
00:46:11,681 --> 00:46:14,721
Speaker 1: were so absolutely petrified that they froze on the ground

893
00:46:14,761 --> 00:46:17,801
Speaker 1: and didn't do anything, it's the first time they've been there.

894
00:46:18,321 --> 00:46:22,121
Speaker 1: That is normal for some people. Other people, depending on

895
00:46:22,161 --> 00:46:26,241
Speaker 1: their background, their experience, their exposure, training that they've done,

896
00:46:26,561 --> 00:46:31,321
Speaker 1: can respond differently. My question to them would be, if

897
00:46:31,401 --> 00:46:34,401
Speaker 1: we get into this circumstance again, what would you like

898
00:46:34,441 --> 00:46:37,601
Speaker 1: to do beforehand to prepare yourself better for it? And

899
00:46:37,641 --> 00:46:40,281
Speaker 1: when it did happen, you know what you did on

900
00:46:40,321 --> 00:46:43,161
Speaker 1: this occasion, what would you have wanted to do if

901
00:46:43,201 --> 00:46:46,001
Speaker 1: you had a perfect scenario, And how can we now

902
00:46:46,041 --> 00:46:49,081
Speaker 1: train you for the mindset as well? As the physical

903
00:46:49,361 --> 00:46:53,881
Speaker 1: and intellectual response and what would be a better performance later. Now,

904
00:46:54,281 --> 00:46:58,441
Speaker 1: the other question is do you still feel comfortable going

905
00:46:58,481 --> 00:47:01,961
Speaker 1: into those scenarios, Do you feel prepared, do you feel

906
00:47:02,001 --> 00:47:04,641
Speaker 1: like this is something you want to do, or would

907
00:47:04,681 --> 00:47:08,201
Speaker 1: you actually like to take a different career path. Go

908
00:47:08,281 --> 00:47:11,681
Speaker 1: into crime scene investigation, go into dog squad, whatever it

909
00:47:11,721 --> 00:47:14,121
Speaker 1: might be in the police department. Or come and take

910
00:47:14,161 --> 00:47:16,401
Speaker 1: a career break, go and become an accountant, go and

911
00:47:16,441 --> 00:47:19,921
Speaker 1: become a finance breaker, become a bus driver. And I

912
00:47:20,041 --> 00:47:22,841
Speaker 1: say bus driver because that's one of the things. If

913
00:47:22,881 --> 00:47:25,881
Speaker 1: my children had not wanted me to go back into stargroup,

914
00:47:26,161 --> 00:47:27,801
Speaker 1: I would have been quite happy to become a bus

915
00:47:27,881 --> 00:47:29,561
Speaker 1: driver a solo as I was able to interact with

916
00:47:29,601 --> 00:47:32,481
Speaker 1: my kids. That was my greatest passion. So the question

917
00:47:32,681 --> 00:47:35,561
Speaker 1: is do you feel comfortable going into it? Do you

918
00:47:35,601 --> 00:47:38,241
Speaker 1: still feel the same confidence as you were talking about

919
00:47:38,281 --> 00:47:41,321
Speaker 1: the racing car driver? And if you don't make a

920
00:47:41,401 --> 00:47:44,481
Speaker 1: decision to take a choice that you are going to

921
00:47:44,521 --> 00:47:48,561
Speaker 1: be passionate about leaving this job now after that incident

922
00:47:48,681 --> 00:47:52,681
Speaker 1: is not being a coward, it's being sensible for you.

923
00:47:53,521 --> 00:47:56,761
Speaker 2: Derek, great advice. What an amazing career. I'm going to

924
00:47:56,761 --> 00:47:58,441
Speaker 2: thank you for your service. It's a bit of a cliche,

925
00:47:58,481 --> 00:48:01,041
Speaker 2: but I think your service continues through your work now.

926
00:48:01,201 --> 00:48:03,041
Speaker 1: Thank you. I think there's something in there for.

927
00:48:03,041 --> 00:48:07,481
Speaker 2: Everyone about optimal performance, about resilience and also coming back.

928
00:48:07,721 --> 00:48:10,641
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time, Adam, absolute pleasure,

929
00:48:10,801 --> 00:48:13,721
Speaker 1: absolute honor to be in this discussion with you. Loved it.

930
00:48:13,841 --> 00:48:18,521
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. That's Derek McManus. What

931
00:48:18,601 --> 00:48:19,601
Speaker 1: an amazing story.

932
00:48:19,921 --> 00:48:21,761
Speaker 2: And my heart does go out for the officers who

933
00:48:21,761 --> 00:48:24,641
Speaker 2: were there at Poor Punker when Desi Freeman allegedly murdered

934
00:48:24,721 --> 00:48:26,321
Speaker 2: two of their colleagues and we died another.

935
00:48:26,601 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: And they're going to struggle, and I hope Victoria Police

936
00:48:28,481 --> 00:48:29,201
Speaker 1: looks after them.

937
00:48:29,441 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: But I think the stuff that Derek's talking about here

938
00:48:31,521 --> 00:48:34,201
Speaker 2: has some applications to us all. And I'm sitting here

939
00:48:34,241 --> 00:48:36,641
Speaker 2: realizing now that when I had my dear that experience,

940
00:48:37,121 --> 00:48:39,161
Speaker 2: I did nothing but try to tough it out. And

941
00:48:39,201 --> 00:48:40,481
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are people out there. I know we

942
00:48:40,521 --> 00:48:42,881
Speaker 2: have police officers who listen to the show. Probably it

943
00:48:42,921 --> 00:48:44,761
Speaker 2: is time to have that bit of therapy. I've had

944
00:48:44,761 --> 00:48:47,761
Speaker 2: it since I should have it before, but it's never

945
00:48:47,761 --> 00:48:48,241
Speaker 2: too late.

946
00:48:48,921 --> 00:48:49,881
Speaker 1: Now, if you have any.

947
00:48:50,041 --> 00:48:52,881
Speaker 2: Crime you'd like to report, please call crime Stoppers one,

948
00:48:52,881 --> 00:48:55,201
Speaker 2: don't hundred, triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust

949
00:48:55,201 --> 00:48:57,081
Speaker 2: the police, you can always email me and I'll send

950
00:48:57,241 --> 00:49:00,161
Speaker 2: the material onto the police. Adam Shanner, writer at gmail

951
00:49:00,201 --> 00:49:01,921
Speaker 2: dot com, Thank you for listening.

952
00:49:01,921 --> 00:49:04,041
Speaker 1: This has been real crime with Adam shanned