Speaker 1: The US will take over the Gaza Strip, and we
Speaker 1: will do a job with he too. We'll own it
Speaker 1: and be responsible for just.
Speaker 2: That's President Donald Trump suggesting that the US take over
Speaker 2: the Gaza Strip.
Speaker 1: We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to be cute, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be a wise guy. But the riviera of the
Speaker 1: Middle East, this could be something that could be so bad,
Speaker 1: This could be so magnificent.
Speaker 2: But he made the extraordinary claim in a public announcement
Speaker 2: yesterday alongside the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Trump also
Speaker 2: said that Palestinians should be settled permanently somewhere else, an
Speaker 2: idea Arab nations including Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, as
Speaker 2: well as Palestinian leaders, have rejected from Schwarz Media. I'm
Speaker 2: Ruby Jones. This is seven AM today. Middle East correspondent
Speaker 2: for The Economist Greg Carlstrom on what Trump's plan for
Speaker 2: Gaza means for the next phase of the ceasefire. It's Thursday,
Speaker 2: February sixth Greg. To begin with, could you just lay
Speaker 2: out for me what President Trump has said that he
Speaker 2: plans to do in Gaza.
Speaker 3: The short answer is he said the United States plans
Speaker 3: to take over Gaza.
Speaker 1: Lately, everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the
Speaker 1: United States owning that piece of land developed.
Speaker 3: He didn't obviously go into much detail because he's Donald Trump,
Speaker 3: but he talked about the US playing a lead role
Speaker 3: in cleaning all of the thousands and thousands of pounds
Speaker 3: of bombs that have not exploded over the past sixteen months,
Speaker 3: developing Gaza, rebuilding Gaza, creating economic opportunities there, and I think,
Speaker 3: perhaps most significantly, expelling the population of Gaza, removing Palestinians
Speaker 3: from Gaza.
Speaker 1: Gazz is not a place for people to be living.
Speaker 1: And the only reason they want to go back, and
Speaker 1: I believe this strong is because they have no alternative.
Speaker 1: What's the alternative, go where there's no other alternative. If
Speaker 1: they had an alternative, they'd much rather not go back
Speaker 1: to Gaza and live in a beautiful alternative that's safe.
Speaker 3: So, really doubling down on these remarks that he had
Speaker 3: made in previous days about trying to move Palestinians from
Speaker 3: Gaza into Egypt or Jordan or other countries.
Speaker 2: And as someone who has followed this conflict closely for
Speaker 2: a long time. Waking up to hear this news, what
Speaker 2: did you think?
Speaker 3: I mean? I was in disbelief. It is not what
Speaker 3: I was expecting to wake up and read. For a
Speaker 3: variety of reasons, I mean, one of them is just
Speaker 3: obviously how unworkable this plan is. Arab states have been
Speaker 3: unanimous in their combination of the idea of expelling Gaza's population.
Speaker 3: We've heard Egypt and Jordan both explicitly rule it out.
Speaker 3: Egypt has already taken about one hundred thousand, at least
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand Palestinians over the course of the war
Speaker 3: in Gaza. They have not publicized it, but the Egyptian
Speaker 3: government absolutely does not want to take two million plus
Speaker 3: the entire population of Gaza, partly because Egyptians would see
Speaker 3: that as Egypt being complicit in what they would see
Speaker 3: is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and also because egypt
Speaker 3: the government would have security concerns about letting two million
Speaker 3: people into the country. The same goes for Jordan, which
Speaker 3: has a big Palestinian population, already has large populations of
Speaker 3: Syrian refugees, Iraqi refugees. Jordanian Jordanians are very nervous about
Speaker 3: their minority position in the country and they don't want
Speaker 3: to add two million more Palestinians to the mix. So
Speaker 3: both of those governments have condemned it. The Jordanian Foreign
Speaker 3: Ministry said Jordan is for Jordanians, Palestine is for Palestinians,
Speaker 3: very clear that they wouldn't accept it. And the Saudi
Speaker 3: Foreign Ministry put out a statement at about four point
Speaker 3: forty in the morning today condemning the idea and stating
Speaker 3: that it was still committed to the establishment of a
Speaker 3: Palestinian state. So no one in the region is going
Speaker 3: to go along with this idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how significant is it that Saudi Arabia has said
Speaker 2: that it rejects this plan.
Speaker 3: It's very significant. I mean, they are the most influential
Speaker 3: Arab country at the moment, and they are also the
Speaker 3: country that both the Trump administration and Israel are very
Speaker 3: keen to do some sort of bigger regional agreement with
Speaker 3: Trump wants to expand the Abraham Accords, the Arab Israeli
Speaker 3: normalization deals from his first term. He wants to get
Speaker 3: the Saudis to sign on to recognize Israel, to establish
Speaker 3: a relationship with Israel. The Saudis have been saying for
Speaker 3: months they're not going to do that unless there is
Speaker 3: a clear pathway to the establishment of a Palestinian state,
Speaker 3: and obviously expelling two million Palestinians from Gaza conflicts with
Speaker 3: that vision. So what Trump is proposing here to the Saudis,
Speaker 3: not only do they reject Trump's proposal in Gaza, but
Speaker 3: they're saying it's going to jeopardize everything that he wants
Speaker 3: to do with broader diplomacy in the Middle East. And simultaneously,
Speaker 3: while Trump is doing this, he's talking about defunding, shutting
Speaker 3: down USAID, the US International Development Agency, and then he
Speaker 3: comes out and proposes this massive development project in Gaza,
Speaker 3: which has been utterly devastated by war over the past
Speaker 3: sixteen months. It doesn't really seem to comport with the
Speaker 3: America First agenda of the Trump administration. So in so
Speaker 3: many different ways, just the very surprising, let's say, proposal
Speaker 3: from the White.
Speaker 2: House, and at the White House, standing alongside President Trump
Speaker 2: as he announced all of this was the Israeli Prime
Speaker 2: Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Can you tell me about what netnya
Speaker 2: who said, and how what Trump is proposing squares with
Speaker 2: what he has been trying to achieve. I've said this before.
Speaker 1: You are the greatest friend Israel has ever had in
Speaker 1: the White House.
Speaker 3: I think for Neettanielle. He came to Washington this week
Speaker 3: looking for an excuse not to continue this ceasefire in
Speaker 3: Gaza that took effect last month. He's very worried about
Speaker 3: what getting to Phase two of that agreement, which is
Speaker 3: meant to be a permanent end to the war in Gaza.
Speaker 3: He's very worried about what that would mean for his
Speaker 3: domestic political circumstances, because some of his far right coalition
Speaker 3: partners have threatened to leave down the coalition, perhaps bring
Speaker 3: down the government if he goes ahead with the second
Speaker 3: stage of this ceasefire. So he's been looking for any
Speaker 3: excuse to delay the negotiations about Phase two, which were
Speaker 3: meant to begin earlier this week. That was his priority,
Speaker 3: and there'd been some talk in recent days that he
Speaker 3: was encouraging Trump to go along with this idea of
Speaker 3: expelling Palestinians from Gaza as a negotiating employ as a
Speaker 3: way to perhaps get the Saudis to do a normalization
Speaker 3: deal with Israel, and then the Saudis could say, you know,
Speaker 3: we prevented Palestinians from being expelled from Gaza. But I
Speaker 3: don't think he expected Trump to go nearly as far
Speaker 3: as he did with what sounds like a proposal to
Speaker 3: send American troops into Gaza.
Speaker 2: Coming up after the break, Donald Trump's son in law
Speaker 2: and his plans for waterfront property in Gaza. Greg Donald
Speaker 2: Trump's idea to develop Gaza comes after his son in law,
Speaker 2: Dared Kushner, last year talked up the potential value of
Speaker 2: waterfront land on the Gaza.
Speaker 3: Stream in Gaza's waterfront property. It could be very valuable
Speaker 3: too if people would focus on kind of building up,
Speaker 3: you know, livelihoods. You think about all the money.
Speaker 2: So to what extent should we look at this as
Speaker 2: a case of Trump using the war there as a
Speaker 2: way to potentially further personal interests.
Speaker 3: And this has been a long time fixation for Jared Kushner.
Speaker 3: He had this bizarre conference all the way back in
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen in Bahrain where he invited businessmen from all
Speaker 3: over the world to come and talk about the economic
Speaker 3: opportunities in the Palestinian territories if there was some kind
Speaker 3: of peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians and at
Speaker 3: that conference, there was talk about, you know, Gaza having
Speaker 3: a tourism based economy and building luxury hotels on the
Speaker 3: waterfront and developing a marina and all that, you know
Speaker 3: sort of things. So it's a personal interest of Kushner's obviously,
Speaker 3: that means it's a personal interest of Trump's as well.
Speaker 3: So you know, maybe there's a piece of that. I
Speaker 3: think you can also look at it in the context
Speaker 3: of he's been talking about trying to take over Greenland,
Speaker 3: He's been talking about wanting Canada to become the fifty
Speaker 3: first state. He seems to have this fixation on territorial
Speaker 3: expansion in his set and term, and this seems like
Speaker 3: a part of that as well.
Speaker 2: And when Trump says that the US should quote own Gaza,
Speaker 2: I mean, this feels like a kind of ridiculous question
Speaker 2: to ask in some ways. But is that even like
Speaker 2: a legal possibility.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think so. It's a very complicated
Speaker 3: legal possibility because it is not a sovereign state, right
Speaker 3: It is part of Palestine, which is recognized by the
Speaker 3: UN as a non member observer state, so it has
Speaker 3: a somewhat different legal status than sovereign states around the world.
Speaker 3: Obviously it's been under the control of a non state
Speaker 3: actor for twenty years, but it's now still occupied by
Speaker 3: the Israeli military. I mean, I don't even know where
Speaker 3: you would begin trying to figure out the if you
Speaker 3: wanted to take this seriously, the legal ramifications of this idea.
Speaker 2: And as you said, the say spy and Gaza was
Speaker 2: the central reason for the meeting between Trump and Netanyahu
Speaker 2: in the first place. It is set to expire soon
Speaker 2: on the first of March. So what does this meeting
Speaker 2: and everything that came out a bit mean for the
Speaker 2: chances of it continuing.
Speaker 3: You know, there's there's almost an argument that you could
Speaker 3: make that these crazy comments from Trump give Nettayao away
Speaker 3: to get to the second phase of the ceasefire and
Speaker 3: to hold off his far right coalition partners. He can
Speaker 3: go back to Jerusalem now and he can say to Betslosmotrichi,
Speaker 3: tomar Ben Gavier, these hard right politicians in his coalition.
Speaker 3: You know, listen, Trump wants us to go to phase two,
Speaker 3: so we need to continue the ceasefire. But don't worry
Speaker 3: about the implications of that. It doesn't mean that, you know,
Speaker 3: we're fully handing Gaza back over to Hamas that were
Speaker 3: going ahead with some kind of diplomatic process with the Palestinians.
Speaker 3: Don't worry about that because America is ultimately going to
Speaker 3: come in and expel everyone and take over the territory.
Speaker 3: So in a sense, he could have thrown Natanielle a
Speaker 3: political lifeline here. The question is whether Natanielle wants to
Speaker 3: take it, whether he wants to come back and get
Speaker 3: to phase two and sort of stand up to his
Speaker 3: hard right coalition partners, and I'm not sure that he will.
Speaker 3: He's always, you know, his his top priority. Natanielle's top
Speaker 3: priority is always his political survival, and sort of the
Speaker 3: path of least resistance for him in Israeli politics is
Speaker 3: to find a way to sink this deal in the
Speaker 3: next few weeks, resume the war in Gaza, keep his
Speaker 3: far right partners onside.
Speaker 2: And I mean, does this signal to you that any
Speaker 2: hope of a two state solution is dead?
Speaker 3: You know, I think any hope has been, if not dead,
Speaker 3: then on life support for years now. And I think
Speaker 3: there was a bit of optimism when Trump came in that,
Speaker 3: you know, perhaps he could take advantage of this opportunity
Speaker 3: where Hamas has been badly weakened in Gaza. Iran's other
Speaker 3: allies have been badly weakened, and Arab states we're begging
Speaker 3: America to pursue some kind of diplomatic process. There was
Speaker 3: a bit of optimism that maybe Trump could capitalize on
Speaker 3: that and present a fair minded peace plan to Israel
Speaker 3: and the Palestinians. But if the idea is that his
Speaker 3: Middle East envoys are going to spend the next few
Speaker 3: months shuttling around the region trying to push this crazy
Speaker 3: idea of America taking over the Gaza strip, There's going
Speaker 3: to be no progress on a piece deal between Israel
Speaker 3: and the Palestinians. There's going to be no progress on
Speaker 3: I think Arab Israeli normalization, bigger grand bargains in the region.
Speaker 3: I think it's going to obstruct anything he might want
Speaker 3: to do.
Speaker 2: And what about for the people who are in Gaza
Speaker 2: right now, the one point eight million people who would
Speaker 2: be listening to this, what do you think that that
Speaker 2: would be?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: Well, I think what is so depressing about all of
Speaker 3: this is, you know, when Trump and his aids say
Speaker 3: that life is miserable, is intolerable in Gaza right now,
Speaker 3: and people ought to live a better life, and they're
Speaker 3: right about that for two million people living in Gaza
Speaker 3: at the moment, they're going back to their home, some
Speaker 3: of them in northern Gaza, now that the ceasefire has
Speaker 3: taken hold. They're discovering that there's nothing left. They're discovering
Speaker 3: that maybe they hope to leave the tent encampments where
Speaker 3: they've been trapped for a year, but they would be
Speaker 3: going back to places that have no electricity, have no
Speaker 3: running water, have no basic services. And so they're right
Speaker 3: when they talk about how difficult life is in Gaza.
Speaker 3: But if their proposed solution to that is to expel
Speaker 3: two million people, for Palestinians, obviously this touches on a
Speaker 3: very deep historical memory of nineteen forty eight, what they
Speaker 3: call the Nakba, the catastrophe, the mass expulsion of Palestinians
Speaker 3: that accompanied the creation of Israel. They are worried that
Speaker 3: even if America and the world tell them, listen, we're
Speaker 3: going to move you out of Gaza just temper rarely
Speaker 3: to rebuild it, but will allow you back, Palestinians are
Speaker 3: going to worry that they're never going to be allowed back,
Speaker 3: and they're going to be displaced off their land once again.
Speaker 3: So they have these two horrible choices, one of which
Speaker 3: is Trump's expulsion proposal, the other of which is staying
Speaker 3: where they are, but staying in miserable conditions.
Speaker 2: Greg, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Also in the news today, Prime Minister Anthony Alberzi has
Speaker 2: said he won't comment on Donald Trump's possible takeover and
Speaker 2: the leveling of Gaza.
Speaker 1: Austrasi's position is the same as it was this morning,
Speaker 1: as it was last year, and it was ten years ago,
Speaker 1: and it was under the Howard government.
Speaker 2: Anthony Albanesi says the government still supports a two state
Speaker 2: solution in the Middle East, a ceasefire, the release of
Speaker 2: hostages and aid to Gaza. And Matilda's captain Sam Kerr
Speaker 2: says she regrets a drunken dispute with London police that
Speaker 2: led to charges of racially aggravated harassment. Kerr called a
Speaker 2: London officer stupid and white following a dispute with a
Speaker 2: taxi driver. The jury in the trial has heard Kerr
Speaker 2: admit that she was drunk, angry and scared and should
Speaker 2: have walked away from the situation. I'm Ruby Jones this
Speaker 2: is seven am. Thanks for listening.