WEBVTT - Trump’s plan to ‘own’ Gaza 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.920 The US will take over the Gaza Strip, and we 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:06.680 will do a job with he too. We'll own it 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:08.640 and be responsible for just. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.680 That's President Donald Trump suggesting that the US take over 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:13.640 the Gaza Strip. 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:18.079 We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:20.640 And I don't want to be cute, I don't want 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:22.880 to be a wise guy. But the riviera of the 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.360 Middle East, this could be something that could be so bad, 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.280 This could be so magnificent. 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:31.240 But he made the extraordinary claim in a public announcement 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:36.520 yesterday alongside the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Trump also 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:41.400 said that Palestinians should be settled permanently somewhere else, an 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.680 idea Arab nations including Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, as 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:54.240 well as Palestinian leaders, have rejected from Schwarz Media. I'm 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.920 Ruby Jones. This is seven AM today. Middle East correspondent 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.360 for The Economist Greg Carlstrom on what Trump's plan for 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:09.280 Gaza means for the next phase of the ceasefire. It's Thursday, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:15.960 February sixth Greg. To begin with, could you just lay 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:19.920 out for me what President Trump has said that he 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:21.560 plans to do in Gaza. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.640 The short answer is he said the United States plans 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.480 to take over Gaza. 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.080 Lately, everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.600 United States owning that piece of land developed. 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.760 He didn't obviously go into much detail because he's Donald Trump, 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.280 but he talked about the US playing a lead role 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.240 in cleaning all of the thousands and thousands of pounds 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:48.000 of bombs that have not exploded over the past sixteen months, 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:53.680 developing Gaza, rebuilding Gaza, creating economic opportunities there, and I think, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:02:00.720 perhaps most significantly, expelling the population of Gaza, removing Palestinians 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:01.320 from Gaza. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.120 Gazz is not a place for people to be living. 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.160 And the only reason they want to go back, and 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.480 I believe this strong is because they have no alternative. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.000 What's the alternative, go where there's no other alternative. If 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.760 they had an alternative, they'd much rather not go back 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.440 to Gaza and live in a beautiful alternative that's safe. 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.440 So, really doubling down on these remarks that he had 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.760 made in previous days about trying to move Palestinians from 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.720 Gaza into Egypt or Jordan or other countries. 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.600 And as someone who has followed this conflict closely for 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.840 a long time. Waking up to hear this news, what 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:36.600 did you think? 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.360 I mean? I was in disbelief. It is not what 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.600 I was expecting to wake up and read. For a 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.840 variety of reasons, I mean, one of them is just 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:51.119 obviously how unworkable this plan is. Arab states have been 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:57.560 unanimous in their combination of the idea of expelling Gaza's population. 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.520 We've heard Egypt and Jordan both explicitly rule it out. 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.359 Egypt has already taken about one hundred thousand, at least 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.839 one hundred thousand Palestinians over the course of the war 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.639 in Gaza. They have not publicized it, but the Egyptian 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.720 government absolutely does not want to take two million plus 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:19.160 the entire population of Gaza, partly because Egyptians would see 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.560 that as Egypt being complicit in what they would see 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.600 is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and also because egypt 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:30.600 the government would have security concerns about letting two million 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.399 people into the country. The same goes for Jordan, which 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:37.360 has a big Palestinian population, already has large populations of 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:42.720 Syrian refugees, Iraqi refugees. Jordanian Jordanians are very nervous about 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.000 their minority position in the country and they don't want 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.760 to add two million more Palestinians to the mix. So 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.000 both of those governments have condemned it. The Jordanian Foreign 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.520 Ministry said Jordan is for Jordanians, Palestine is for Palestinians, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.040 very clear that they wouldn't accept it. And the Saudi 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.600 Foreign Ministry put out a statement at about four point 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.080 forty in the morning today condemning the idea and stating 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.440 that it was still committed to the establishment of a 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.960 Palestinian state. So no one in the region is going 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:11.640 to go along with this idea. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.440 Yeah, how significant is it that Saudi Arabia has said 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:17.040 that it rejects this plan. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.400 It's very significant. I mean, they are the most influential 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.280 Arab country at the moment, and they are also the 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:28.040 country that both the Trump administration and Israel are very 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.920 keen to do some sort of bigger regional agreement with 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.200 Trump wants to expand the Abraham Accords, the Arab Israeli 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.120 normalization deals from his first term. He wants to get 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.560 the Saudis to sign on to recognize Israel, to establish 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.719 a relationship with Israel. The Saudis have been saying for 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.880 months they're not going to do that unless there is 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.679 a clear pathway to the establishment of a Palestinian state, 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.160 and obviously expelling two million Palestinians from Gaza conflicts with 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.000 that vision. So what Trump is proposing here to the Saudis, 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.240 not only do they reject Trump's proposal in Gaza, but 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.279 they're saying it's going to jeopardize everything that he wants 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.520 to do with broader diplomacy in the Middle East. And simultaneously, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.000 while Trump is doing this, he's talking about defunding, shutting 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.279 down USAID, the US International Development Agency, and then he 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:24.000 comes out and proposes this massive development project in Gaza, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.400 which has been utterly devastated by war over the past 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.160 sixteen months. It doesn't really seem to comport with the 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.880 America First agenda of the Trump administration. So in so 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:39.240 many different ways, just the very surprising, let's say, proposal 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:40.000 from the White. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:44.719 House, and at the White House, standing alongside President Trump 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.360 as he announced all of this was the Israeli Prime 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.680 Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Can you tell me about what netnya 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.680 who said, and how what Trump is proposing squares with 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.600 what he has been trying to achieve. I've said this before. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.960 You are the greatest friend Israel has ever had in 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:05.960 the White House. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.599 I think for Neettanielle. He came to Washington this week 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.800 looking for an excuse not to continue this ceasefire in 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.599 Gaza that took effect last month. He's very worried about 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.760 what getting to Phase two of that agreement, which is 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.120 meant to be a permanent end to the war in Gaza. 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.040 He's very worried about what that would mean for his 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.200 domestic political circumstances, because some of his far right coalition 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.400 partners have threatened to leave down the coalition, perhaps bring 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.240 down the government if he goes ahead with the second 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.720 stage of this ceasefire. So he's been looking for any 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.600 excuse to delay the negotiations about Phase two, which were 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.400 meant to begin earlier this week. That was his priority, 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.080 and there'd been some talk in recent days that he 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.640 was encouraging Trump to go along with this idea of 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.560 expelling Palestinians from Gaza as a negotiating employ as a 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.599 way to perhaps get the Saudis to do a normalization 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.159 deal with Israel, and then the Saudis could say, you know, 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.040 we prevented Palestinians from being expelled from Gaza. But I 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.000 don't think he expected Trump to go nearly as far 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.120 as he did with what sounds like a proposal to 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.960 send American troops into Gaza. 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.400 Coming up after the break, Donald Trump's son in law 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:36.440 and his plans for waterfront property in Gaza. Greg Donald 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:41.120 Trump's idea to develop Gaza comes after his son in law, 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:45.600 Dared Kushner, last year talked up the potential value of 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.040 waterfront land on the Gaza. 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.280 Stream in Gaza's waterfront property. It could be very valuable 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.360 too if people would focus on kind of building up, 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:56.560 you know, livelihoods. You think about all the money. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.840 So to what extent should we look at this as 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.920 a case of Trump using the war there as a 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.560 way to potentially further personal interests. 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:10.240 And this has been a long time fixation for Jared Kushner. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.320 He had this bizarre conference all the way back in 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:17.680 twenty nineteen in Bahrain where he invited businessmen from all 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.360 over the world to come and talk about the economic 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.680 opportunities in the Palestinian territories if there was some kind 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.080 of peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians and at 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.080 that conference, there was talk about, you know, Gaza having 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.320 a tourism based economy and building luxury hotels on the 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.200 waterfront and developing a marina and all that, you know 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.240 sort of things. So it's a personal interest of Kushner's obviously, 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.760 that means it's a personal interest of Trump's as well. 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.160 So you know, maybe there's a piece of that. I 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.800 think you can also look at it in the context 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.040 of he's been talking about trying to take over Greenland, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.960 He's been talking about wanting Canada to become the fifty 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.119 first state. He seems to have this fixation on territorial 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.320 expansion in his set and term, and this seems like 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:02.400 a part of that as well. 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:08.840 And when Trump says that the US should quote own Gaza, 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.360 I mean, this feels like a kind of ridiculous question 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.280 to ask in some ways. But is that even like 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:19.600 a legal possibility. 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:25.079 I mean, I don't think so. It's a very complicated 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:30.680 legal possibility because it is not a sovereign state, right 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.320 It is part of Palestine, which is recognized by the 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.600 UN as a non member observer state, so it has 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:43.160 a somewhat different legal status than sovereign states around the world. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:47.000 Obviously it's been under the control of a non state 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.920 actor for twenty years, but it's now still occupied by 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.080 the Israeli military. I mean, I don't even know where 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.599 you would begin trying to figure out the if you 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.840 wanted to take this seriously, the legal ramifications of this idea. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.040 And as you said, the say spy and Gaza was 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:06.400 the central reason for the meeting between Trump and Netanyahu 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.480 in the first place. It is set to expire soon 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:13.280 on the first of March. So what does this meeting 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.480 and everything that came out a bit mean for the 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.000 chances of it continuing. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.200 You know, there's there's almost an argument that you could 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:25.520 make that these crazy comments from Trump give Nettayao away 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.200 to get to the second phase of the ceasefire and 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.240 to hold off his far right coalition partners. He can 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.840 go back to Jerusalem now and he can say to Betslosmotrichi, 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.360 tomar Ben Gavier, these hard right politicians in his coalition. 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.760 You know, listen, Trump wants us to go to phase two, 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.880 so we need to continue the ceasefire. But don't worry 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.520 about the implications of that. It doesn't mean that, you know, 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.839 we're fully handing Gaza back over to Hamas that were 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.680 going ahead with some kind of diplomatic process with the Palestinians. 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.440 Don't worry about that because America is ultimately going to 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.440 come in and expel everyone and take over the territory. 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.200 So in a sense, he could have thrown Natanielle a 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.360 political lifeline here. The question is whether Natanielle wants to 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.480 take it, whether he wants to come back and get 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.840 to phase two and sort of stand up to his 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.760 hard right coalition partners, and I'm not sure that he will. 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.439 He's always, you know, his his top priority. Natanielle's top 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.480 priority is always his political survival, and sort of the 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.560 path of least resistance for him in Israeli politics is 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.120 to find a way to sink this deal in the 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.360 next few weeks, resume the war in Gaza, keep his 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.400 far right partners onside. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.800 And I mean, does this signal to you that any 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.920 hope of a two state solution is dead? 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:47.079 You know, I think any hope has been, if not dead, 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.760 then on life support for years now. And I think 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.920 there was a bit of optimism when Trump came in that, 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.360 you know, perhaps he could take advantage of this opportunity 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.040 where Hamas has been badly weakened in Gaza. Iran's other 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.120 allies have been badly weakened, and Arab states we're begging 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.400 America to pursue some kind of diplomatic process. There was 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.840 a bit of optimism that maybe Trump could capitalize on 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.360 that and present a fair minded peace plan to Israel 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.160 and the Palestinians. But if the idea is that his 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.040 Middle East envoys are going to spend the next few 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.360 months shuttling around the region trying to push this crazy 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.719 idea of America taking over the Gaza strip, There's going 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.079 to be no progress on a piece deal between Israel 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.440 and the Palestinians. There's going to be no progress on 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.760 I think Arab Israeli normalization, bigger grand bargains in the region. 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.480 I think it's going to obstruct anything he might want 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:42.800 to do. 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.040 And what about for the people who are in Gaza 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.760 right now, the one point eight million people who would 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.920 be listening to this, what do you think that that 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:52.680 would be? 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:52.920 Like? 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:57.960 Well, I think what is so depressing about all of 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.319 this is, you know, when Trump and his aids say 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:07.080 that life is miserable, is intolerable in Gaza right now, 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.920 and people ought to live a better life, and they're 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:16.160 right about that for two million people living in Gaza 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.720 at the moment, they're going back to their home, some 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.880 of them in northern Gaza, now that the ceasefire has 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.280 taken hold. They're discovering that there's nothing left. They're discovering 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.439 that maybe they hope to leave the tent encampments where 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.160 they've been trapped for a year, but they would be 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.360 going back to places that have no electricity, have no 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.560 running water, have no basic services. And so they're right 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.240 when they talk about how difficult life is in Gaza. 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.640 But if their proposed solution to that is to expel 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.920 two million people, for Palestinians, obviously this touches on a 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.320 very deep historical memory of nineteen forty eight, what they 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:52.360 call the Nakba, the catastrophe, the mass expulsion of Palestinians 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.839 that accompanied the creation of Israel. They are worried that 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.280 even if America and the world tell them, listen, we're 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.440 going to move you out of Gaza just temper rarely 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.760 to rebuild it, but will allow you back, Palestinians are 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.679 going to worry that they're never going to be allowed back, 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.679 and they're going to be displaced off their land once again. 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:12.080 So they have these two horrible choices, one of which 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.840 is Trump's expulsion proposal, the other of which is staying 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.080 where they are, but staying in miserable conditions. 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.400 Greg, thank you so much for your time today. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:24.000 Thank you. 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.080 Also in the news today, Prime Minister Anthony Alberzi has 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.840 said he won't comment on Donald Trump's possible takeover and 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.240 the leveling of Gaza. 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.640 Austrasi's position is the same as it was this morning, 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.280 as it was last year, and it was ten years ago, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:52.880 and it was under the Howard government. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.640 Anthony Albanesi says the government still supports a two state 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.920 solution in the Middle East, a ceasefire, the release of 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.960 hostages and aid to Gaza. And Matilda's captain Sam Kerr 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.400 says she regrets a drunken dispute with London police that 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.600 led to charges of racially aggravated harassment. Kerr called a 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.920 London officer stupid and white following a dispute with a 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.280 taxi driver. The jury in the trial has heard Kerr 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.040 admit that she was drunk, angry and scared and should 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.280 have walked away from the situation. I'm Ruby Jones this 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.280 is seven am. Thanks for listening.